Dick Grayson's popularity as Robin and as Nightwing.

[Buried Alien]

Dick Grayson is among the longest-published characters in DC history. He debuted in 1940, scarcely a year after Batman/Bruce Wayne himself, and his been an icon of the DC Universe for almost as long.

Dick spent his first forty-four years as Robin, becoming Nightwing in 1984 and thriving in that role ever since.

It was as Robin that Dick first established his identity and status in the DCU. Through the comics, the 1960s BATMAN TV series, and the various Hanna Barbera cartoons of the 1970s and 1980s, the image of Dick Grayson as Robin is deeply engrained in the consciousness of several generations of fans.

Twenty-four years have passed since Dick gave up the mantle of Robin and evolved into Nightwing, however, which means at least one generation of comic readers has never really read about Dick as Robin...only Nightwing. Surely, almost everyone is aware that Nightwing was once the first Robin, but among younger readers and fans, their experience with reading about Dick as Robin is probably limited to a few stray back issues, flashback stories i.e. ROBIN: YEAR ONE and NIGHTWING: YEAR ONE, or trade paperback collection of older stories from the Golden, Silver, and Bronze Ages.

I first came aboard with reruns of the BATMAN TV series, followed by the Hanna Barbera cartoons of the 1970s and 1980s. By the time I first delved into the BATMAN comic books in the early 1980s, Dick was already near the end of his time as Robin. Most of the BATMAN stories I've read featuring Dick has him as Nightwing.

Dick is a very popular character today as Nightwing, and has been since he first took that identity in the JUDAS CONTRACT storyline of NEW TEEN TITANS back in 1984. Did he enjoy that same popularity when he was Robin, or did Dick's popularity greatly increase as a result of his evolution into Nightwing?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[NeoStar9X]

Your are forgetting that a lot of people still continued to see him as Robin in Batman: The Animated Series in the 90s as well as it's animated films. Also in the Batman films (Batman Forever and Batman & Robin). He also was shown as Robin recently in Teen Titans and The Batman animated series and those lasted a number of years.

With the drop in comic sales over the decades and the number of people reached via the television shows and movies which dwarfing the comic audience by comparison I'd say even now his popularity as Robin is still going strong and will continue until Nightwing is given a chance to shine outside of the comics. It's still his Robin persona that he's known by.

[Captain Jim]

Dick is a very popular character today as Nightwing, and has been since he first took that identity in the JUDAS CONTRACT storyline of NEW TEEN TITANS back in 1984. Did he enjoy that same popularity when he was Robin, or did Dick's popularity greatly increase as a result of his evolution into Nightwing?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Hmm, I think his popularity began to increase with the beginning of Wolfman & Perez's New Teen Titans and grew from there. Before that, not so much.

[Spiffy]

The way I see it, there's a part of Dick that's always going to be bound the Robin no matter what. As others have said, whenever the Batman mythos is retold, in various media, its almost always Dick who shows up as Robin.

A kind of test of this would be to poll people over who they most associated with the character Robin. Instead of a straight list, I'd ask people to give a numerical figure, between 1 and 10 for each contender. I'd bet Stephanie would get a 1 most of the time, Jason would average around a 2 or 3, Tim around a 6 or 7 and Dick consistently about a 9.

I think that Dick is always Robin, there's just an "AND" hanging around. He's Robin AND Nightwing. Both. Or maybe more properly: Robin, Dick, and Nightwing, in that order.

Tim, in comparison, is more like "Tim AND Robin", with Tim coming first in order. Heck, even the way he was introduced reinforces that, since he did his initial detective work AS Tim.

[DayWing]

oh well then, I think it is high time for Batman to go solo and Nightwing, Red Robin and Tim (with new name) to form the Robins and operate out of a new Bludhaven.:biggrin:

[siberia77]

Great recap Buried Alien, i had no idea Robin launched so soon after Batmans debut.

[Lupek]

Dick Grayson as Robin in ingrained in pop culture forever.

Nightwing is more just a comic book thing.

And has it ever really been a big success? I dont ask that to be snarky, I lapsed out of comics and missed the 90's. How successful has Nightwing been?

[Spiffy]

Dick Grayson as Robin in ingrained in pop culture forever.

Nightwing is more just a comic book thing.

And has it ever really been a big success? I dont ask that to be snarky, I lapsed out of comics and missed the 90's. How successful has Nightwing been?
If we're being honest?

Only moderately.

The impact of the character is a legacy of his role as Robin. I don't know if everyone wants to acknowledge that, but its true. The comic book has been both fairly good, and fairly dreadful, at various times. I believe its sold decently, but not overwhelmingly.

[Lupek]

Thanks for that.

Personally, I never took to Nightwing because of the ugly costumes. I've sampled the book a few times since returning to comics a few years ago. His look has improved quite a bit but nothing that I've read has hooked me. I'm up for something new where Dick Grayson is concerned. And if there is to be a new status quo for the character coming soon, i wonder what will be the staus quo for him after that has run it's course.

[Xybernauts]

If we're being honest?

Only moderately.

The impact of the character is a legacy of his role as Robin. I don't know if everyone wants to acknowledge that, but its true. The comic book has been both fairly good, and fairly dreadful, at various times. I believe its sold decently, but not overwhelmingly.

I agree.

Thanks for that.

Personally, I never took to Nightwing because of the ugly costumes. I've sampled the book a few times since returning to comics a few years ago. His look has improved quite a bit but nothing that I've read has hooked me. I'm up for something new where Dick Grayson is concerned. And if there is to be a new status quo for the character coming soon, i wonder what will be the staus quo for him after that has run it's course.

I agree with this also. I honestly think his costume holds him back from reaching his full potential. I almost get the impression DC deliberately has left his costume so mundane just to keep him from reaching or exceeding batman's level of popularity.

As Robin, I never really liked Dick. As a kid I found him annoying, particularly in the 60's Batman show and Superfriends. I always felt he was holding Batman back. I don't think I even knew about Nightwing until the 90's. It wasn't until the first Robin comic in the 90's that I actually started to like the character of Robin. Of course that Robin was Tim not Dick, but by association once they revamped Tim's image as Robin I essentially took a liking to all incarnations of Robin, including Dick.

So to answer the question, I don't think Robin was always as popular as you seem to remember. I think the entire reason they changed Robin to Nightwing was most likely to help revive a character that annoyed the public.

[the-wolf]

Really? I like his latest look. Clean and simple. The first one was butt ugly, the second was OK, but the glider wings were too bright.

[DayWing]

There can be no question that Nightwing is popular. Sometimes, more popular than even a lot of the big 7 (not including Supes, Bats and WW). He may not always be someone's favorite, but chances are he is second or third favorite or somewhere in the top 10. I also know a lot of readers who solely read other company's comics who claim that Nightwing is their favorite in DC. It is because he is more accessible and reader friendly I think.

I think the appeal of the character is Dick Grayson himself. He has got his set of fans and to see him grow into his own man was the cool part. The writers could have chosen to leave him as a mature or adult Robin (with a better costume) or given him another ID instead of Nightwing. The result would have been the same, his fans saw growth, something that really is lacking with other characters. The time when Dick was in the Titans and away from the Bat family was his true glory days because he was free to grow as a character in a way that was not constrained by him being part of the Bat family where writers had to be careful of a supporting characters overshadowing Batman.

That all changed when DC dragged him back to the Bat characters. Although Dixon did a very good job balancing him between Bat stuff and solo stuff, most other writers don't know how to do it. Tomasi seems good so far though.
So to me, it is not who is better, Robin or Nightwing. Dick Grayson is the reason we are buying his appearances. If he becomes Batman tomorrow, I don't care much about the ID, I will be there for Grayson's new adventures. So while some people may be wondering whether Dick is more popular as Robin or Nightwing, the real truth is, we fans just want to proper and progressive stories with our favorite character. Nightwing represented a move forward in a positive way.

[shaxper]

It was always my impression that Nightwing didn't win all that many people over until he got his own series. While there were MANY fans of the Wolfman/Perez Titans era, The Judas Contract was both their greatest achievement and the begining of a slow decline for the franchise. Dick's costume was a nightmare, and I don't think many people were willing to accept his new identity, partly for that reason, and partly because he'd been Robin for over four decades.

Also, as others have pointed out here, he was still being depicted as Robin in popular media. When I was a kid in 1986, Dick had already become Nightwing, but I only knew him as Robin from the Super Powers cartoon and the five and dime toys and puzzles I had of Batman & Robin.

Nightwing has slowly been building his reputation since that time, largely due to Chuck Dixon's characterization and a far better costume. I think his presence as Nightwing later in Batman: The Animated Series helped the mainstream begin to accept him as well. And, of course, Tim Drake replacing him as a permanant, long-term Robin forced fans to gradually accept the fact that there was no going back for Dick. Still, I don't think it was until Dan D. tried to kill him off in Infinite Crisis that fans began to demonstrate a universal fondness for Nightwing.

[Choppa]

Is it true that Robin was first introduced as a way of attracting kids to Batman and stuck around because he was popular?

[metr0man]

The amount of people who read comics regularly is tiny. Most people who know of Dick Grayson as Robin don't even know who or what Nightwing is, much less that he was once Robin.

[Spiffy]

There can be no question that Nightwing is popular. Sometimes, more popular than even a lot of the big 7
Respectfully, I think this is totally unprovable. It may be an feeling gotten from anecdotal impressions, from fan talk on fan boards, but in any larger sense? Outside of the people who are actively talking about Nightwing, I don't think he's all that well known. He's not a "brand", like "Flash" or "Green Lantern". He doesn't transcend the limits of his own comics readership into the culture as a whole. Almost any person on the street will know that Flash is a superhero, even if they don't know the Flash's name. Ditto for Green Lantern.

I don't think that's quite true of Nightwing. Or in some cases, where someone is somewhat cognizant of comics as a whole, but not specifically a Nightwing fan, I think the reaction tends to be "yeah, that guy who used to be Robin".

Within the scope of the DCU, he's written AS IF he's overwhelmingly popular, because that's the image DC currently wants him to have as a character. He's everybody's chum. The guy they all trust. The Batman without the baggage (well, unless you are Barbara Gordon, in which case you just feel screwed over by him). But we shouldn't confuse the image of his character with the reality of how popular he is outside of the world created by those comics.

This is not to say he isn't a great character, and a worthwhile addition to the DC stable. Its just a matter of looking at the impact of the character realistically. He's actually a superior device for storytelling within the DCU, because of his inclusive nature. In a sense, keeping him around at DC is smart because of that, not because he's become some kind of cultural icon (which he has NOT).

[Ravel]

dick got famous, most as robin, thanks to tv series, and other stuff.

But the thing is, it sorted made a paradox between tim and dick, that not even jason gets close.

Tim became THE ROBIN, and even his gear is part of it. The best Robin ever.
But dick got famouse in other media thanks to the robin mantle...but he is more loved as nightwing by fans.

[HaroldAllnut]

Did he enjoy that same popularity when he was Robin, or did Dick's popularity greatly increase as a result of his evolution into Nightwing?

I think Dick Grayson has always been popular (at least amongst comic book fans) regardless of his operating name; he's popular simply because he is, in my opinion, the glue that holds the DC Universe together. He was truly the first promise of a brighter future for DC's big heroes when he burst onto the scene. He was the first of an entirely new generation, and is now a mentor to yet another new generation of metahumans and crimefighters.

An example of his status as a sort of "glue" in the DCU can be found in one of his early appearances as Nightwing, when he went to Metropolis to speak with Clark Kent (I forget the exact issue, but I think Scott McDaniel drew it); there, he and Clark share a dialogue regarding Batman, among other things, and you can just see from their interactions that Dick has matured and grown in his time as Robin, and that Clark knows it. Another fine example would be Young Justice #22, when Nightwing and Robin III have a heart-to-heart about superheroism in the middle of a stake-out. The fact that Dick used to be in Tim's place, and has now assumed a Batman-esque role in a conversation he must have had earlier in his own life is, I think, what makes Dick such a popular character.

In short, again, it's not the costume/name that really matters; I think Dick Grayson simply had the makings of a popular character from the beginning since he was the first of his kind.

[buttah]

Regular peoples exposure to Nightwing has only been BTAS but most don't remember that. While Robin as Dick has been in pretty much every incarnation, I personally like Nightwing for reasons that I'm just realizing I don't understand. But popular among comic book readers doesn't really=popular.

[DayWing]

I think Dick Grayson has always been popular (at least amongst comic book fans) regardless of his operating name; he's popular simply because he is, in my opinion, the glue that holds the DC Universe together. He was truly the first promise of a brighter future for DC's big heroes when he burst onto the scene. He was the first of an entirely new generation, and is now a mentor to yet another new generation of metahumans and crimefighters.

An example of his status as a sort of "glue" in the DCU can be found in one of his early appearances as Nightwing, when he went to Metropolis to speak with Clark Kent (I forget the exact issue, but I think Scott McDaniel drew it); there, he and Clark share a dialogue regarding Batman, among other things, and you can just see from their interactions that Dick has matured and grown in his time as Robin, and that Clark knows it. Another fine example would be Young Justice #22, when Nightwing and Robin III have a heart-to-heart about superheroism in the middle of a stake-out. The fact that Dick used to be in Tim's place, and has now assumed a Batman-esque role in a conversation he must have had earlier in his own life is, I think, what makes Dick such a popular character.

In short, again, it's not the costume/name that really matters; I think Dick Grayson simply had the makings of a popular character from the beginning since he was the first of his kind.


True. As I said in my post, it Dick Grayson the charcter a lot of us like, regardless of him being robin or Nightwing. The way I see it, fandom become fans of characters via two ways -

1. The Name/Costume - i.e. Superman, Wonder Woman. So no matter who is wearing the costume, the fans are there for the iconic titles. Clearly demonstrated in the initial interest if Grant Morrison's JLA in the 90s (although the stories were superb too).

2. The Person - i.e. Clark, Diana, etc. Fans want to see character development for their favorite guy or girl. Wally becomes Flash, Dick leads the Titans, things like that.

Sadly, there only seems to be a handful of heroes with established iconic status (superman, Batman, WW, Lantern, Flash, Robin (not Nightwing), etc).

So of course, if there is ever a poll distributed to the general public about who they preferred Dick as, Robin would win hands down. Because there are a lot more non-canoical comic readers out there who only know about Robin via the movies or tv shows. But I have a feeling that if someone really is willing to read essential stories about Dick, the preference would go towards Nightwing. Dick as NW is a truly superior character to him as Robin.

Plus, there are also so many better dynamics with Dick as NW. He is the greatest accomplishment of Batman (something that would never be obvious when he was still wisecracking as Robin), he is a great role model to Tim, he can probaply lead any team consisting of even veterans like GL, Flash, Aquaman (when Superman is not around) and seriously he is cool as anything:biggrin:

[NeoStar9X]

But I have a feeling that if someone really is willing to read essential stories about Dick, the preference would go towards Nightwing. Dick as NW is a truly superior character to him as Robin.



I can't agree with that mainly because there have been no modern comic interpretations of him as Robin that I'm aware of. Your assumption is based on versions of him written during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. We've never really had a modern story of Dick Grayson as Robin in the comics. We've had plenty of him in movies and TV shows though. Storytelling then is different from what is done now. Just as Batman was allowed to change, to become darker, so too could have Dick as Robin.

Had they wanted to, and from what I recalled on another site (not sure how true it is though) they tried at one point during a JLA/JSA crossover, they could have matured Dick as Robin by maturing his costume. What I recall reading was that during one of the crossovers his costume was finally upgraded to long pants but it was undone. Had that been kept and then been allowed to naturally evolved into the suit Tim now has he could stayed as Robin yet be even more popular then he is now. If that had been allowed to happen I wouldn't be surprised if could be pulling in the same numbers similar to Batman instead of the low numbers his Nightwing title and even Tim's Robin title gets by comparison.

Honestly I'd love to see a mini-series with him as an adult Robin (more mature costume) just to see how well it would sell and how it's received.

[kalika]

My first exposure to Grayson was thru Batman: The Animated Series. Before B:TAS, Batman was Bruce Wayne and Robin was iconic and I knew nothing more about him - like who he was, or how he got mixed up with Batman. So Rick Grayson was the first person behind the mask as far as I was concerned. And I instantly fell for him -- for all the usual reasons: he made Batman more attainable and human (the father/son/mentor/student bit always made me melt).

When I made the leap from TV to comics, Knightfall was just taking off and it was kind of explosive to learn about everything that had happened to Grayson, including his growing up and taking off on his own -- still as Robin. I think that's one of the most amazing things about his mythology. He didn't leave Robin in the Batcave. He took that identity that was associated with Bruce and made it his own. Only after really maturing as Robin was he able to make the switch to Nightwing.

Learning the back story of Rick was amazing to me in so many ways because I had never seen a superhero grow up before. It was like a mystery, "How did he get from here to there?" And I really enjoyed piecing together the missing Grayson years between Robin and Knightfall, while also getting to know Tim. I was fascinated with the pivot Grayson provided, still youthful to Bruce but a role model to Tim. I was thirteen at the time, and so identified with Tim's mostly, so it always seemed like a special little treat to catch a glimpse of Nightwing -- like an older brother coming home from college.

Jason, on the other hand, was a ghost. I learned about him to learn he was dead. But Robin always had this dual identity of Rick/Tim for me. I was reading Tim in the comics, and seeing Grayson on the show.

So personally, I loved Grayson as Robin, but that's partially because it was buffered by B:TAS (don't think everybody after the eighties never saw Rick as Robin!). I wouldn't ever want to get rid of Nightwing because it's just so awesome that he struck out on his own like that. I would never give up Rick as Robin either, because it's his years of experience that make Nightwing so freakin' sweet too.

Just thought I'd throw a personal tale of how one person got to know and love Grayson, even without reading him as Robin in the comics.

[pariah-1972]

I really did not like Robin until the time around or before Judas Contract ironically.

[WorstThingUS]

Dick Grayson's popularity easily measured when you understand that he is responsible for all superhero sidekicks, proteges and teen heroes, which means if you like Spider-Man, Invincible and The Runaways, you like Dick Grayson.

[NeoStar9X]

Dick Grayson's popularity easily measured when you understand that he is responsible for all superhero sidekicks, proteges and teen heroes, which means if you like Spider-Man, Invincible and The Runaways, you like Dick Grayson.

Not true at all. You can argue he helped paved the way (you can argue against it as well but you can't make a blanket statement the way you did though) for younger heroes when they previously were mainly adults. However you can not make a statement that just because you like a younger hero that means you like Dick Grayson as a result. That makes no sense at all.

[WorstThingUS]

Not true at all. You can argue he helped paved the way (you can argue against it as well but you can't make a blanket statement the way you did though) for younger heroes when they previously were mainly adults. However you can not make a statement that just because you like a younger hero that means you like Dick Grayson as a result. That makes no sense at all.

Hyperbole. I'm a fan. "Indebted" is a better word.

[DayWing]

I can't agree with that mainly because there have been no modern comic interpretations of him as Robin that I'm aware of. Your assumption is based on versions of him written during the 40s, 50s, 60s, and 70s. We've never really had a modern story of Dick Grayson as Robin in the comics. We've had plenty of him in movies and TV shows though. Storytelling then is different from what is done now. Just as Batman was allowed to change, to become darker, so too could have Dick as Robin.

Had they wanted to, and from what I recalled on another site (not sure how true it is though) they tried at one point during a JLA/JSA crossover, they could have matured Dick as Robin by maturing his costume. What I recall reading was that during one of the crossovers his costume was finally upgraded to long pants but it was undone. Had that been kept and then been allowed to naturally evolved into the suit Tim now has he could stayed as Robin yet be even more popular then he is now. If that had been allowed to happen I wouldn't be surprised if could be pulling in the same numbers similar to Batman instead of the low numbers his Nightwing title and even Tim's Robin title gets by comparison.

Honestly I'd love to see a mini-series with him as an adult Robin (more mature costume) just to see how well it would sell and how it's received.


You see, this is exactly what I meant with my very first post in this thread. It is Dick as a character and his growth that we cared about. That is exactly what I am saying. In the 80s, DC was already potraying him as a more serious young adult even as Robin in the Titans. His costume did not fit him anymore though. When they decided to make him NW, the change was very popular because it was step to advance him away from the shadow of the Bat. Maybe they created the NW name to emphasis on that or maybe the Bat folks wanted Robin, I don't know. But if they had kept the Robin idendtity with an updated costume, a lot of us would have been fine with that, because it was still Dick Grayson.

So really, Dick Grayson's as NW in the 80s onwards is really a better character than Dick Grayson as Robin before the 70s because he was taken more seriously and there was none of that boy in distress stuff anymore.

Now if DC wants to make him Robin again, but with a truly cool costume, minus the Batman depedency and NW attitude, well that will be a step backwards (but Geoff would make it work), if done well, it would be interesting.