Best Non-Comics, Non-Superhero Female Action Hero

[Pink Bat Maxine]

....I know I should have someone else at the top of my head. Some sassy Jungle Queen or Femme Fatale, but.... despite it all, I still have to say.....

http://www.cnn.com/EVENTS/1997/star.wars.anniversary/where.are.they/princess.leia.lg.jpg

Yeah, she was rescued, but I've never seen ANY other princess have the oves to take over her OWN rescue operation. She was a kick ass action heroine.... and it's a shame she wasn't used more, or better. (I can't be the ONLY person disappointed when Return Of The Jedi came out that she hadn't been given training in the Force!)

Oh, Princess Leia, you're awesome.

Who's your favorites?

[BnL]

Ellen Ripley.

[snarkbunny]

Eve Dallas from J.D. Robbs' "In Death" book series...

[kitty_tc_69]

Ellen Ripley.

Seconded.

Add Sarah Connor to the list.

[a. non]

Zelda-as-Sheik
http://zeldawiki.org/images/0/07/Brawlsheikrender.png

Samus Aran
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Metroidprime3_1.jpg

And i have this awesome picture of Brienne of Tarth from Song of Ice and Fire, but i need to dig it out.

[Dazzler]

Anyone who knows me knows that my love for Lt. Ellen Ripley and Sarah Conner (Linda Hamilton version) are unbound.

But, I'm also going to throw Dr. Juliet Burke from LOST onto that pile. She's come to grow on me like I never thought she would. To the point of being one of my top three characters on the show along with Charlie and Rose.
http://www.buddytv.com/articles/Image/Lost-characters/Elizabeth-Mitchell-as-Julie.jpg

--Dazz

[Tobias March]

Oh Marla Singer definitely.

http://fvd.aas.duke.edu/screensociety/images/SLC_FightClub2.jpg

What action scenes you say? Why all the smoking of course.

[RachelEvil]

Commander Susan Ivanova.

[Hi-Fi]

http://www.fireflywiki.org/img/Zoe23.jpg
http://media.canada.com/gallery/movie_assassins/1024_killbill.jpg
http://i67.photobucket.com/albums/h288/ngee_khiong/Radha-Mitchell_s.jpg
http://www.cinema.com/image_lib/3888_3832_thumb.jpg

[Hi-Fi]

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060926/131054__sun_l.jpg

[Dazzler]

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/060926/131054__sun_l.jpg
SUN! YES!

Good one, Hi-Fi. I love me some Sun and Jin.

--Dazz

[berk]

Modesty Blaise. No, wait, O'Donnell wrote her in a newspaper strip as well as the novels.

Michelle Yeoh in Supercop, etc, then.

[Hi-Fi]

SUN! YES!

Good one, Hi-Fi. I love me some Sun and Jin.

--Dazz
And I love me some Juliet as well, so we're even!:smile:

[KevinTBrown]

Mrs. Peel:

http://www.emmapeel.com/Emma_Peel_Gallery-1.jpg

[Dazzler]

And I love me some Juliet as well, so we're even!:smile:
What's your take on Kate Austen? Personally, I want to throttle her.

--Dazz

[Tetsuo_man]

Ellen Ripley.

[BnL]

You know, there really should be more candidates to choose from, now that I really think about it.

Anyway, I'll add She-Ra to the list.

[Hi-Fi]

What's your take on Kate Austen? Personally, I want to throttle her.

--Dazz
She's... pretty?

My favorite Lost ladies are Sun, Juliet, Alex and Rousseau.

[Gumbo Maximillian]

You know, there really should be more candidates to choose from, now that I really think about it.

Anyway, I'll add She-Ra to the list.

Though I have to say I'm not sure I would define someone with superpowers, a costume and a secret identity as not being a "superhero".

[Chris Lang]

Well, a personal favorite of mine would be Gabrielle of Xena: Warrior Princess fame. She starts out the innocent, and is sort of the 'everyperson' and the contrast to the darker, sometimes more cynical Xena. But she soon becomes a kickass fighter in her own right.

[Sarah Beach]

Aeryn Sun of Farscape.

Russian Police Major Valentina Koslova (Diane Venora) of the film The Jackal.

Oh! And Delenn from Babylon 5! (Mira Furlan is cool!)

[BnL]

Though I have to say I'm not sure I would define someone with superpowers, a costume and a secret identity as not being a "superhero".

True. See? It's hard to come up with anyone! :tongue:

[Dazzler]

She's... pretty?

My favorite Lost ladies are Sun, Juliet, Alex and Rousseau.

She's pretty...annoying. ;)

I think our Lost tastes run in the same way, except I would put Rose over Alex.

Come to think of it, Danielle Rousseau is the most action-y lady on the show. She's pretty bad-ass and I love her.

--Dazz

[Buzz Dixon]

Dorothy, you pikers...

[Dazzler]

Buzz remind me, and I don't know how I could forget:

G.I. Joe's own resident super-dyke: LADY JAYE! MY BETCH!
http://www.thehutch.com/monitorduty/imgs/gijoe/gijoe_ladyj-thumb-300x225.jpg

--Dazz

[Gail Simone]

Ripley.

Lara Croft can be fun.

[Charles RB]

Mothra.

Godzilla, King Ghidorah, Battra... they all know better than to fuck with Mothra.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

http://www.aeropause.com/wordpress/archives/images/2008/05/bge_art_02.jpg
http://rems.planets.gamespy.com/Claire_Redfield.JPG
http://www.rodrigoflausino.com/imagens/games/tomb_raider/tomb_raider_anniversary.jpg
http://gamecrushes.com/stuf/quistis1.jpg

Yes, I´m a treppie. What else is new? ^_^

[TCJohnson]

Yu Shu Lien

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1170000/images/_1173586_yeoh2.jpg

[JKCarrier]

http://gamecrushes.com/stuf/quistis1.jpg

Yes, I´m a treppie. What else is new? ^_^

Join the club, my friend. :biggrin:

[jesse_custer]

Yu Shu Lien

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1170000/images/_1173586_yeoh2.jpg

Absolutely.

[Karl J Barnes]

Rose Tyler

Martha Jones

Donna Noble

Three very different companions to The Doctor and unique in their own fashion.

[scout1279]

Yu Shu Lien

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1170000/images/_1173586_yeoh2.jpg

Deffinitely.

Also Ripley, Sarah Connor Zoe from Firefly, and, the one I haven't seen mentioned before, Sidney Bristow. She rocked.

[Cayman]

Molly from William Gibson's Neuromancer.

Elena Michaels from Kelley Armstrong's Bitten and other Women Of The Underworld books.

Mace Mason from the movie Strange Days.

[Alan Lynch]

Mace Mason from the movie Strange Days.
Oh hell yes. Angela Bassett is tremendous in that movie.

[kitty_tc_69]

http://uk.geocities.com/blissful_absolution/assignment4/images/tifaimage.jpg

[Grazzt]

*snip*

Terra and Celes were far cooler.

[Charles RB]

Rose Tyler

Martha Jones

Donna Noble

Liz Shaw

Ace

Sarah Jane Smith

Barbara

Spoilt for choice, really.

[Tawky Tawny]

http://us.st12.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/yhst-51816236815316_2010_40958626

http://www.accoutrements.com/images/products/11024.jpg

http://www.whatonearthcatalog.com/graphics/products/regular/AU4742.jpg

http://www.accoutrements.com/images/products/11333.jpg

[Kevinroc]

Zelda-as-Sheik
http://zeldawiki.org/images/0/07/Brawlsheikrender.png

Samus Aran
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/64/Metroidprime3_1.jpg

And i have this awesome picture of Brienne of Tarth from Song of Ice and Fire, but i need to dig it out.

Zelda's an interesting one as they've slowly made her more of an ass-kicker in recent years. The battle where Link fights the possessed Zelda at the end of Twilight Princess is actually more difficult than the final fight against Gannondorf.

Samus certainly has her spot on the list, being the first real female video game ass-kicker. And the fact that she fights an evil space dragon (who is also a pirate) does have a general appeal to it. Although her franchise (Metroid) is very clearly inspired by the Alien franchise. Ripley did pave the way for Samus.

Although it is important to note that Samus pretty much is the first video game female action hero. Her games are also typically thought of as among the best on whatever system Nintendo releases them on. Samus has also been in every Super Smash Bros. game. Because she wears that armored suit at least 95%, some people STILL don't know Samus is female (although at this point, no excuse if you've heard of her and don't know she's female). These days, this is what Samus typically wears when she isn't in her armor.

http://images.wikia.com/ssb/images/2/29/ZeroSuitSamusBrawl.jpg

[Corrina]

Author Nora Roberts has a Jane Austen action figure.

It keeps her Buffy & Spike action figures company. She said she's sure they have three-ways when she's out of the room.

Anywho, Eve Dallas from Nora's JD Robb "In Death" series.

Cordelia Naismith from Lois McMaster Bujold's Vorkosigan series. We might as well toss in Elli Quinn, too.

I'm getting very fond of Fiona from "Burn Notice" as well.

And let's not forget Cagney & Lacey. And Laura Holt.

[section 8]

well she isn't an "action Heroine" per se' but,
Deputy Chief Brenda Leigh Johnson of "The Closer"

[tangentman]

I love me some Grace Anadarko, Clarice Starling, and pre-Illyria Fred Burkle, in addition to the excellent suggestions so far! I want to say Buffy Summers, but she's pretty much a superhero. Good suggestions, though, and I'm especially thrilled with all the Michelle Yeoh/Zoe/Mace love!

[Chris Lang]

I love me some Grace Anadarko, Clarice Starling, and pre-Illyria Fred Burkle, in addition to the excellent suggestions so far! I want to say Buffy Summers, but she's pretty much a superhero. Good suggestions, though, and I'm especially thrilled with all the Michelle Yeoh/Zoe/Mace love!

I didn't include Xena when I mentioned Gabrielle, because there are a few times where she's been sort of a 'superhero', especially during the last two seasons.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

How could I have forgotten Nadia from Nightmare Creatures

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/0/09/Nadia01.jpg

[Spiffy]

To me the key to this is the "action hero" part. I see a lot of admirable women discussed, but I'm not sure I'd personally call them all action heroes. I won't go through all that have been discussed, but instead toss out a few that I see as close to the mark, then add some of my own.

Ripley, yes, although to be honest she doesn't become that until the 2nd Alien movie.

Emma Peel? Probably. But while she's very kicky/punchy, she's also a relic of a simpler time when there were limits on how far they'd actually have her go. So I'd say maybe she is, but in a more stylistic way.

The Lost ladies, and the Doctor Who ladies don't quite measure up for me. I mean they are great characters, but "action hero" seems very specific to me, and they don't seem to quite fit that bill.

Xena is a great one, probably very close to a perfect answer. There are a lot of "think" segments snuck into that show, among the over-the-top action, but at the root Xena was always about kicking ass.

Okay, now some others that occur to me are:

Buffy Summers. I mean this one has to be obvious. She kicks first and asks questions later. Yes, she's a comic book character NOW, so she might have to be eliminated from this contest, but she didn't start out that way.

Sydney Bristow. She's GOT to be real up there. Even with all of the big emotional moments stuffed into Alias, it was always made clear that the root of the show was her kicking asses.

Sarah Connor. Although as with Ripley, you have to carve out her first appearance as an exception. She and Ripley share the notion of a character evolving into an action hero from necessity.

[Chris Lang]

The Lost ladies, and the Doctor Who ladies don't quite measure up for me. I mean they are great characters, but "action hero" seems very specific to me, and they don't seem to quite fit that bill.

The Doctor Who ladies mentioned don't seem to fit the bill for me, either, with the major exception of Ace. Sarah Jane Smith was more active than previous companions, and there were some stories where she rescued the Doctor just as much as he rescued her, but I don't recall her doing much fighting...

As for the Lost crowd, Kate certainly has her 'action hero' moments, but it's not really at the core of her character.

[Corrina]

Someone who does qualify as an action hero from the Whoverse would be Gwen from "Torchwood."

Rose was carrying around that Big Ass Gun (tm) in The Stolen Planet. Maybe that qualifies her.

I picked Laura Holt as she was the lead in "Remington Steele" and usually tended to be not only the one who solved the crime but was involved in the action as much as Steele aka Pierce Brosnan.

Eve Dallas gets kiss the ass of people robbing convenience stores because they interfere with her getting a candy bar. And that's just for starters. She more than qualifies.

And I think if Cordelia solves an interplanetary civil war by raiding the palace, taking out the main bad guy and delivering his body parts in a bag, that qualifies her.

Buffy seems a classic superhero to me. She's got special powers & abilities right up front. There's even a nice verse about it..."Into every generation, a slayer is born." And Faith even identifies them as "Hot chicks with superpowers," so I"d eliminate all Slayers.

Anita Blake might qualify but she's busy snogging everything that moves these days and that's not the kind of superhero we want. But Murphy from Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden's books qualifies.

Also, Eowyn. Even more so, because she is simply absolutely ordinary in a world filled with those with special abilities.

[tangentman]

Y'know, even if Anita's boning every monster in sight, she still qualifies as a good action-heroine. Anita is still a strong-willed, powerful woman who isn't above getting her hands dirty in a fight. She's taken numerous hits in fights, and is equally at home using a gun, blade, or her fists. Readers have seen that Anita can get by in a fight without the Marks, and will push herself even harder to do so.

Here's a no-brainer addition:

http://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q187/LittleErn/charlies_angels.jpg

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Yhttp://i136.photobucket.com/albums/q187/LittleErn/charlies_angels.jpg

A-admiral Caine?
That´s a side of you I didn´t know... ^_^

[Indigo Al]

I was going to offer 'Josephine':

http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/040415/15578__02nikita_l.jpg

But as cool as she was, and as riveting as her action scenes were, she was also a victim, and a Pygmalion/Eliza Doolittle. Thus she couldn't compare to characters like Ripley or Sarah Connor.

But she was still cool as hell.

I also wanna echo Eowyn. Miranda Otto breathed a lot of life into that character.

[section 8]

was "la Femme Nakita" ever a comicbook?

[pitbull in a skirt]

http://floacist.files.wordpress.com/2008/03/silence2.jpg

[section 8]

Pit bull in a-? Mom? is that you?

[4PointOh]

Michelle Yeoh, baby:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1b/Michelle_Yeoh2.jpg

[Indigo Al]

was "la Femme Nakita" ever a comicbook?

I've never heard of any adaptation, but I could be wrong.

[rick]

My favorites were always…..

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/2730/foxycd8.jpg
Foxy Brown


http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3434/sheenaxn7.jpg
Sheena, Queen of the Jungle

and

http://img386.imageshack.us/img386/504/doriw7.jpg
Dorothy Gale of Kansas

[Cayman]

http://www.starbuddies.com/_ups/b-blog_9.jpg

Break The Ice video Britney Spears

[section 8]

I cannot leave this thread without posting "Bea Arthur"

[Spiffy]

I cannot leave this thread without posting "Bea Arthur"
http://img366.imageshack.us/img366/8545/beaarthurib3.jpg

[pitbull in a skirt]

Pit bull in a-? Mom? is that you?

Way too young to be a mom :smile: Especially your mom, being 5 years my senior...

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Buffy Summers. I mean this one has to be obvious. She kicks first and asks questions later. Yes, she's a comic book character NOW, so she might have to be eliminated from this contest, but she didn't start out that way.

I'm pretty sure Princess Leia's been in comics before, so it's all good.

I picked Laura Holt as she was the lead in "Remington Steele" and usually tended to be not only the one who solved the crime but was involved in the action as much as Steele aka Pierce Brosnan.

Nice call!

[Black Atom]

Although it is important to note that Samus pretty much is the first video game female action hero.

There is another.

http://www.bordercityvbc.org/images2/ms_pacman2.jpg

In all seriousness, Samus is one of my favorite video game characters ever.

[Chris Lang]

I'm pretty sure Princess Leia's been in comics before, so it's all good.

So has Gabrielle, who I picked. I think basically, this thread is to name favorite female action heroes who didn't start out in comics and aren't really considered 'superheroes'. It shouldn't matter if they've later appeared in comics.

[Kevinroc]

There is another.

http://www.bordercityvbc.org/images2/ms_pacman2.jpg

In all seriousness, Samus is one of my favorite video game characters ever.

Well, Ms. Pac Man might have more credibility if she didn't just live off of the Pac Man name. Samus didn't ride off of Mario's or Link's coattails. :tongue:

It is interesting that the idea of making Samus a woman didn't happen until the first Metroid was already in development. Someone on staff suggested Samus be a woman and the staff liked the idea so much they put it to a vote and thus we have our female bounty hunter (although she doesn't seem to do a lot of bounty hunting).

And hey, Gunpei Yokoi helped produce the first Metroid game. Gotta give it up to the creator of Game & Watch and the Gameboy (let's not mention the Virtual Boy).

[Spiffy]

I picked Laura Holt as she was the lead in "Remington Steele" and usually tended to be not only the one who solved the crime but was involved in the action as much as Steele aka Pierce Brosnan.
People recalling that show seem to often forget that Steele was a fake. Heck, I even saw a promo from THOSE days, up on YouTube, that acted like Steele was "real".

As a fake, it was a big part of his character that Laura was usually the lead in just about everything (well, everything that didn't involve bullshitting).

[a. non]

Eiko Megami, daugher of Clark and Diana
http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/956/01dx9.jpg

Naomi Armitage, everyone's favorite "gun-toting terror in hotpants"
http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/7980/3286922969583pdvd136tq4.png

[Corrina]

People recalling that show seem to often forget that Steele was a fake. Heck, I even saw a promo from THOSE days, up on YouTube, that acted like Steele was "real".

As a fake, it was a big part of his character that Laura was usually the lead in just about everything (well, everything that didn't involve bullshitting).

Which is awful because that's the whole fun of the show.

He's a fake, scamming her because she can't reveal that she created a fake boss. Awesome setup. Lots of crunchy conflict, especially when she's stuck explaining for his mistakes. Not that he was useless but, clearly, she was the smart one.

And she had the hat. I'd go to a con as Laura Holt but I doubt anyone would recognize it as a costume.

[tangentman]

Didn't Laura & "Steele" show up in New Mutants Special Edition #1 in 1985? I'm thinking of the scene on the Greek island, when Storm exchanges "Good mornings" with a couple VERY much like them. It was a nice, unexpected cameo, along with Popeye, Bluto, & Olive Oyl showing up in the Asgardian mead hall! :biggrin:

[Spiffy]

Which is awful because that's the whole fun of the show.

He's a fake, scamming her because she can't reveal that she created a fake boss. Awesome setup. Lots of crunchy conflict, especially when she's stuck explaining for his mistakes. Not that he was useless but, clearly, she was the smart one.

And she had the hat. I'd go to a con as Laura Holt but I doubt anyone would recognize it as a costume.
This 1983 promo actually has the balls to show a boy version of him and call the boy "Remington Steele". As if someone who watched the show was so stupid they didn't understand that this couldn't possibly be the boy's name.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xLHGpukM0i0


EDIT:

Actually, if you watch THIS version instead...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywIO3k8qNjo

There's a video with Laura first, showing her kicking some ass.

[Karl J Barnes]

well she isn't an "action Heroine" per se' but,
Deputy Chief Brenda Leigh Johnson of "The Closer"

Well, she has had some action scenes,like when she shot that serial killer(I think in season 2), but yes, she's more of a cerebral/sleuth hero than action.

[WhiteRose]

Asuka, Rei and Misato from Neon Genesis Evangelion.

The Knight Sabers.

Faye Valentine (with all the Man-Faye, I think we've been desensitised from the fact she's actually a pretty kickass lady)

Yuna, Rikku and Paine in Final Fantasy X & X-2.

Sarah Kerrigan (on a personal note, Starcraft is what got me back into videogames)

Mulan! Kim Possible!

Aeon Flux.

Practically all the ladies in Battlestar Galactica, with a particular mention of one Kara Thrace.

And finally, because I've just watched the entire new series and really don't understand the hatin': Jamie Sommers.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I see a lot of awesome action heroines in this thread but I think you guys are starting to allow your love for some female heroines distort the definition of "female action hero".

I mean, seriously, Brenda from The Closer? Laura Roslin from Battlestar Galactica?
Action heroines? Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

I love Bree from Desperate Housewives (she´s my absolute favorite character in the show) but you don´t see me posting her here, do you?

And unlike Breanda or Laura, she actualy fires a gun every now and then. :biggrin:

[Alan Lynch]

Samantha "Charlie" Caine (Geena Davies) in The Long Kiss Goodnight, if she hasn't been mentioned already. I love that film.

[Gothos]

I really think Modesty Blaise belongs here, with all the more reality-based crusaders. Maybe the heading could be amended to "non-comic book?" After all, comic strips really AREN'T the same medium as comic books, any more than TV shows and film are the same because they use similar devices.

Plus which, how well known are comic strips for original superheroes of either gender? It's not where they excel.

All the AVENGERS ladies deserve mention-- Peel being the cream of the crop, though Gale, Purdey and King are all worthy contenders.

Sheena deserves for headlining one or more titles for about ten years.

Film serials copies her success with Nyoka (two serials) and the Tiger Woman.

A three-film low-budget series called GINGER seems to have been the first to kick off the 1970s "tuffgirl" cycle, better known for COFFY, CLEOPATRA JONES, and FOXY BROWN. There are a lot of lesser-known ones too that deserve mention in the annals of trashcinema, like Sondra Currie's POLICEWOMEN and JESSI'S GIRLS.

Raquel Welch's HANNIE CAULDER is something of a breed apart, being more of a A-list effort.

I rather liked Tia Carrere's RELIC HUNTER too.

[Charles RB]

The Knight Sabers.

Seconded!

(But Daley Wong is still cooler)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I really think Modesty Blaise belongs here, with all the more reality-based crusaders. Maybe the heading could be amended to "non-comic book?" After all, comic strips really AREN'T the same medium as comic books, any more than TV shows and film are the same because they use similar devices.
.


ZOMG!

Someone who heard of Modesty Blaise?


She is a comicbook characvter, though, so she can´t be in this thread.

[Agent Helix]

....Modesty Blaise is a fairly well-known character. I don't know why it would come as a shock that people are familiar with her.

[Gothos]

:rolleyes: ZOMG!

Someone who heard of Modesty Blaise?


She is a comicbook characvter, though, so she can´t be in this thread.

Modesty is as much a comicBOOK character as is Princess Leia, who was the nomination of PB Maxine (who started the thread).

[Eliseu Gouveia]

....Modesty Blaise is a fairly well-known character. I don't know why it would come as a shock that people are familiar with her.


Maybe here.
Usualy, when I mention her, people think I´m speaking greek.

:rolleyes:

Modesty is as much a comicBOOK character as is Princess Leia, who was the nomination of PB Maxine (who started the thread).

Modesty Blaise started as a comicbook character.

Leia started as a movie character. Like Buffy, she only became comic character later.
And unlike Buffy, she has no superpowers (at least not in the movies).

[Gothos]

Zeu,

MB began as a COMIC STRIP character, as seen in this Wiki entry:

"Modesty Blaise is a comic strip featuring a fictional character of the same name, created by Peter O'Donnell (writer) and Jim Holdaway (art) in 1963. The strip follows the adventures of Modesty Blaise, an exceptional young woman with many talents and a criminal past, and her trusty sidekick Willie Garvin. It was adapted into films made in 1966, 1982, and 2003 and a series of thirteen novels and short story collections, beginning in 1965."

If you want to think of strips and books as the same, that's your privilege. I don't, for reasons I gave earlier.

[Charles RB]

Strip or book, it's still a comic.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Strip or book, it's still a comic.


My sentiments exactly. :)

[Charles RB]

See also: manga, bande dessins, webcomics, graphic novels

[TCJohnson]

Maybe here.
Usualy, when I mention her, people think I´m speaking greek..

Δεν μπορώ ποτέ να σας καταλάβω.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Δεν μπορώ ποτέ να σας καταλάβω.

Μην με κάνετε να κλέψω τα κόμικς σας :rolleyes:

[Gothos]

See also: manga, bande dessins, webcomics, graphic novels

Just for grins:

Do you consider film and TV to be the same medium, then?

[Agent Helix]

Boy, the concept of a "TV Movie" must just break your head wide open.

[Gothos]

Boy, the concept of a "TV Movie" must just break your head wide open.

Not *my* head.

I'm the one saying that *if* films and television are fundamentally distinct, then strips and books should be too.

One can lump the first two under some category like "audiovisual stuff."

But the Oscars and the Emmys will continue to celebrate the media separately.

[Charles RB]

Do you consider film and TV to be the same medium, then?

Yes, they're basically the same medium. They're both filmed entertainment.

The big difference is that you go to a cinema to watch a film - except when it's on the telly, on DVD, in-flight etc.

the Oscars and the Emmys will continue to celebrate the media separately.

Those are industry awards though. That just means the people making stuff for TV are not the ones making stuff for films. British TV has the BATFAs, but they're not a seperate medium to American TV.

[kitty_tc_69]

Not *my* head.

I'm the one saying that *if* films and television are fundamentally distinct, then strips and books should be too.

One can lump the first two under some category like "audiovisual stuff."

But the Oscars and the Emmys will continue to celebrate the media separately.

Actually, they are the same medium, they're different formatting and distribution systems. The difference is more akin to the difference between TPBs sold through bookstores and monthly comics sold in LCSs. It's the same medium, just formatted and distributed differently.

[Shisho]

No Evie love? I'm adding Evelyn Carnahan O'Connell, even if she didn't count as an action hero until the 2nd movie.

Rachel Weisz, btw, is the only Evie I count. :mad:

[TCJohnson]

Yes, they're basically the same medium. They're both filmed entertainment.

Actually...no. Television is not filmed, it is taped. One is created by a chemical process while the other is created by an electronic process. Both have different pros and cons. There are things you can do with film that you can't do with tape, and vice versa.

[Shisho]

Actually...no. Television is not filmed, it is taped. One is created by a chemical process while the other is created by an electronic process. Both have different pros and cons. There are things you can do with film that you can't do with tape, and vice versa.

Nerd. :wink: :biggrin:

[Gothos]

Actually...no. Television is not filmed, it is taped. One is created by a chemical process while the other is created by an electronic process. Both have different pros and cons. There are things you can do with film that you can't do with tape, and vice versa.

I'm not against making distinctions on other grounds-- in fact, I favor it-- but that one strikes me as negligible. But yes, there are things that can be done in films that can't be done well in television productions, and vice versa.

And the same applies to comic strips and comic books.

[Gothos]

Actually, they are the same medium, they're different formatting and distribution systems. The difference is more akin to the difference between TPBs sold through bookstores and monthly comics sold in LCSs. It's the same medium, just formatted and distributed differently.

But formatting and distribution makes a big difference to what material appears in them, as we all know from Doc Wertham, who thought that comic books were heinous but comic strips were OK because the latter had social controls (responsible editors) to determine what went in them. (Guess he never saw DICK TRACY.)

A few exceptions to the contrary, I do think that comic strips, because of their venue, don't succeed as well as do comic books at portraying the wilder side of the imagination, which is where we get our superhero(ines) from.

[TCJohnson]

Nerd. :wink: :biggrin:

Well, I was a video production major with a double minor in film and children's literature.

And while the end results can be similiar, the differences are not negligible. The processes for creating each are extremely different.

[Spiffy]

Actually...no. Television is not filmed, it is taped. One is created by a chemical process while the other is created by an electronic process. Both have different pros and cons. There are things you can do with film that you can't do with tape, and vice versa.
This distinction is vanishing, and soon to be gone.

First, there have been plenty of broadcast shows over the years that were filmed and then only later transfered to tape for broadcast.

Second, Digital has changed all of the rules permanently. Digital film-making is more akin to taping than filming, although in actuality it is neither, and BOTH TV and movies are moving en masse to digital cameras.

And actually, on the storage and broadcast end, I believe a great deal of the TV we see has been digitally stored (and played for broadcast from that digital form) for quite some time. "Tape" has been gone from the actual broadcast portion of the process for a while.

[tangentman]

I see a lot of awesome action heroines in this thread but I think you guys are starting to allow your love for some female heroines distort the definition of "female action hero".

I mean, seriously, Brenda from The Closer? Laura Roslin from Battlestar Galactica?
Action heroines? Gimme a break. :rolleyes:

I love Bree from Desperate Housewives (she´s my absolute favorite character in the show) but you don´t see me posting her here, do you?

And unlike Brenda or Laura, she actually fires a gun every now and then. :biggrin:

I stand by Holly Hunter's Grace Anadarko (of Saving Grace). Grace actually does the "action heroine" stuff--chasing criminals through the streets of OKC, hitting men much bigger than herself, throwing perps against walls or tables to cuff 'em, definitely uses her gun.

[Tommy]

Television and movies are wildly different media. They only over lap if you consider an episode of a TV show opposed to a movie. And even then they operate very very differently. It's like saying a magazine and a book are the same media because both are printed paper bound together.

[TCJohnson]

This distinction is vanishing, and soon to be gone.


Soon to be gone, but not quite yet.

[Charles RB]

But yes, there are things that can be done in films that can't be done well in television productions, and vice versa.

And the same applies to comic strips and comic books.

You can do different things in a 22-page monthly than you can in a 6-page weekly strip anthology. Yet nobody considers 2000AD and Judge Dredd to be a different medium to the X-Men.

See also: graphic novels. Are they now an entirely different medium?

For that matter, you can do things in colour comics that you can't in black-and-white comics - are they now a different medium?

[Gothos]

You can do different things in a 22-page monthly than you can in a 6-page weekly strip anthology. Yet nobody considers 2000AD and Judge Dredd to be a different medium to the X-Men.

See also: graphic novels. Are they now an entirely different medium?

For that matter, you can do things in colour comics that you can't in black-and-white comics - are they now a different medium?

Those are all differences of degree.

Comic strips, though sharing many of the same devices as do comic books, are different in KIND due to their almost exclusive distribution through newspapers, where, being "strips," they can only address subject matter in quick, syncopated bursts.

Judge Dredd may initially appear in 6-page increments, but nothing about the comic book FORM dictates that they must be. Dredd can be in 6. 20, or a 100 pages if someone is willing to foot the bill for the art.

The comic book has a potential to be more "novelistic" than comic strips ever did or have, for all that continuity strips successfully imitated what might be called the "novellette" in the form of story-arcs, rather like 80s tv dramas.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I stand by Holly Hunter's Grace Anadarko (of Saving Grace). Grace actually does the "action heroine" stuff--chasing criminals through the streets of OKC, hitting men much bigger than herself, throwing perps against walls or tables to cuff 'em, definitely uses her gun.


Good for her, I´m a huge Holly fan.

If the heroine does the running around, shooting/slashing fighting thing, then yes, I think she should be considered an action heroine.

Im all for putting officer Danny Sofer (The Shield) in this category because she was shooting bad guys every other episode (pre-pregnancy).

But if your life is pushing papers behind a desk aboard a space shuttle, then no, you´re not an action heroine.

The girl who blows up the bad robots who want to shoot down your space shuttle is the action heroine.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I'm not against making distinctions on other grounds-- in fact, I favor it-- but that one strikes me as negligible. But yes, there are things that can be done in films that can't be done well in television productions, and vice versa.

And the same applies to comic strips and comic books.

Whether they´re printed in a newspaper one panel a week or in a book, comics are comics, period.

It´s like saying that orange joice is not orange juice if it´s served on a plate instead of a cup..

[Charles RB]

Comic strips, though sharing many of the same devices as do comic books, are different in KIND due to their almost exclusive distribution through newspapers, where, being "strips," they can only address subject matter in quick, syncopated bursts.

But that's not true - Doonesbury has famously been spending a long period of time on a character being injured and traumatised in Iraq. Comic strips are capable of doing it.

You may notice the strip format was the basis for many webcomics (and still is), a large number of which did quite long and involved storylines.

Judge Dredd may initially appear in 6-page increments, but nothing about the comic book FORM dictates that they must be

Yes there is - it's an anthology comic. It has to be 6 pages because four other strips want in.

The comic book form is just X number of pages in a magazine format - frequency of release, number of pages, and how many strips there are in each issue, that varies. Those variations change the sort of stories you can tell in the comic. If the difference between comic book and comic strip is enough to have strips classed as a different medium, why not differences in comic book format?

[Eliseu Gouveia]

"strips," they can only address subject matter in quick, syncopated bursts.


Prince Valiant, Flash Gordon, Tarzan, Modesty Blaise, there are tons of comic strips with storylines that ran for months, sometimes YEARS.

Out here, a newspaper once started printing the Flash Gordon strip and I couldn´t WAIT for the day Flash, Dale and Zarkov got out of some underwater realm, I went into and graduated 3rd grade and they were STILL walking around in those fish scale costumes.

[TCJohnson]

Whether they´re printed in a newspaper one panel a week or in a book, comics are comics, period.

It´s like saying that orange joice is not orange juice if it´s served on a plate instead of a cup..

I would except that...the problem is, I think, that people are misusing the word medium.

The medium is, specifically, the materials used in creating a piece of art. Comics itself is not a medium. The paper that it is printed on is, the ink that is used is.

News paper and the paper used in comics these days are different.


The orange juice is still orange juice but the medium it is given to us, the plate and glass, are different.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I would except that...the problem is, I think, that people are misusing the word medium.

The medium is, specifically, the materials used in creating a piece of art. Comics itself is not a medium. The paper that it is printed on is, the ink that is used is.

News paper and the paper used in comics these days are different.


The orange juice is still orange juice but the medium it is given to us, the plate and glass, are different.

I guess we could debate that, but the thread starter didn´t specify that, he only said "non-comics" female action heroes.

Modesty Blaise and Wonder Woman are both comics heroines.
Only dif is one was originaly a comic strip heroine and the other a comic book heroine.

[Gothos]

I would except that...the problem is, I think, that people are misusing the word medium.

The medium is, specifically, the materials used in creating a piece of art. Comics itself is not a medium. The paper that it is printed on is, the ink that is used is.

News paper and the paper used in comics these days are different.


The orange juice is still orange juice but the medium it is given to us, the plate and glass, are different.

You're correct: the earliest use of "medium" known to me, that of Good Ol' Charlie Aristotle, did indeed mean the medium through which the work was expressed.

Arguably, in modern times, it's come to mean everything that defines the way the work is transmitted and received, which includes analyzing certain techniques-- say, like film's "jump cuts"-- as a way of analyzing what film can do that other media cannot do, or cannot do with the same effect.

I had a longer reply to Zeu and the computer ate it. Maybe tomorrow.

[K-DoG7p7]

Easy


http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/54/039_6643~Linda-Hamilton-Posters.jpg

With

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e186/cra2yw01f/River_tam.png
On a close secound.. Because Ballerinas vs Flesh eating Zombies(Kinda) = Epic Win

[scout1279]

Has anyone mentioned Miss Piggy? She could totally karate chop the shit out of anyone else on this list.

[Spiffy]

Soon to be gone, but not quite yet.
That doesn't help prove your point. The fact that there are exceptions to the digital convergence doesn't invalidate the fact that large numbers of both TV shows and Movies are produced with no notion of video taping or filming these days.

Television and movies are wildly different media. They only over lap if you consider an episode of a TV show opposed to a movie. And even then they operate very very differently. It's like saying a magazine and a book are the same media because both are printed paper bound together.

The fact that most TV is produced in an episodic mass-produced fashion versus theatrical movies where the product is often produced with more care doesn't mean it HAS to be done that way. There are things made for TV that are made with the same care, and similar expectations to theatrical movies, and there are things made for theatrical release that are very mass produced and factory-like (in fact, a VERY large number of things if you include "direct to video" products--a kind of middle ground).

Whether they´re printed in a newspaper one panel a week or in a book, comics are comics, period.

It´s like saying that orange joice is not orange juice if it´s served on a plate instead of a cup..

I'm generally on your side in this debate, but you've lost me a bit with this particular example. The fact that newspaper strips are serialized, and very short form, whereas comic books are usually more episodic in nature and long form, is a big deal. This leads in most cases to works that are, by their very nature, vastly different. Its not an absolute thing, true, but its almost overwhelmingly the case. But I DO get your point that on some level the difference is irrelevant--I just think its a harder case to make with comics.

Compare this to TV, where while there's a ton of product made very differently from theatrical movies, there's also quite a lot made in almost exactly the same way, and even the stuff that isn't is quite varied. Movies are produced for TV all of the time, for example. Content on TV can be either serialized or episodic, very short form (even shorter than theatrical), medium form (about the same length as theatrical), or very long form (far longer than a theatrical movie).

Even theatrical content is too slippery to pin down. While many tend to forget about them, serials used to be a staple. The fact that they don't exist anymore doesn't invalidate their part in shaping movies.

To say movies are one thing, and TV another, ignores history. They've often had things in common, and even within themselves they've VARIED so much as to make defining them very difficult.


I would except that...the problem is, I think, that people are misusing the word medium. The medium is, specifically, the materials used in creating a piece of art. Comics itself is not a medium. The paper that it is printed on is, the ink that is used is.
This would be a better point, if history and at least 40 or 50 years of other usage hadn't altered the meaning somewhat. Language, as even Webster's recognizes, is fluid. While "Medium" only means two or three things, "Media" has its own extra discrete set of evolved meanings these days.

Also, just in terms of the mediums involved, is there a significant different between something being stored on a computer and then shown on a digital projector in a theater and something else being stored on a computer and then sent (still in digital form) through a cable system, internet connection, or even via airwaves using the mandatory (in a mere six months or so) digital broadcast (DTV) method?

[Kevinroc]

The lack of Haruhi in this thread is disturbing...

http://www.madman.com.au/wallpapers/the_melancholy_of_haruhi__305_1024.jpg

Much better. :smile:

[TCJohnson]

This would be a better point, if history and at least 40 or 50 years of other usage hadn't altered the meaning somewhat. Language, as even Webster's recognizes, is fluid. While "Medium" only means two or three things, "Media" has its own extra discrete set of evolved meanings these days.

I don't believe it has altered the meaning. People who work with these forms still refer as the materials use to the medium. A movie is a movie, but when you talk to movie makers they will talk about the different mediums they use.

Also, just in terms of the mediums involved, is there a significant different between something being stored on a computer and then shown on a digital projector in a theater and something else being stored on a computer and then sent (still in digital form) through a cable system, internet connection, or even via airwaves on the mandatory (in a mere six months or so) digital broadcast antennas?

To the viewer, not much. To the camera men and the editors and the directors, there is a huge difference.

[Matt Doc Martin]

Δεν μπορώ ποτέ να σας καταλάβω.

Μην με κάνετε να κλέψω τα κόμικς σας :rolleyes:

Πόνος στο γάιδάρο μου

[Gothos]

But that's not true - Doonesbury has famously been spending a long period of time on a character being injured and traumatised in Iraq. Comic strips are capable of doing it.

You may notice the strip format was the basis for many webcomics (and still is), a large number of which did quite long and involved storylines.



Yes there is - it's an anthology comic. It has to be 6 pages because four other strips want in.

The comic book form is just X number of pages in a magazine format - frequency of release, number of pages, and how many strips there are in each issue, that varies. Those variations change the sort of stories you can tell in the comic. If the difference between comic book and comic strip is enough to have strips classed as a different medium, why not differences in comic book format?

Even the great story-arcs in comic strips have to communicated in the rhythm I've described: quick bursts, because even the Sunday strips are only able to communicate so much before running out of space. That's a restriction due to *form.*

When B.D. comes back home with a missing leg, that's explored in a long arc, like the Flash Gordon strip you remember (most arcs last about three months; if your underwater opus was longer, it's unusual but doesn't disprove the rule). Then Trudeau moves on to something else. He may come back to B.D.'s troubles, but then it's established. He can devote another arc to it or have the disabled status be background for a week of Zonker vs. B.D. jokes.

In contrast, Judge Dredd, being a comic book, is only limited by the arbitrary decisions of the publisher, not by its *form.* The publisher puts other features into the anthology with the popular Dredd in the hope of spinning off more successful projects, but if he had incontrovertible proof that the other features hurt sales, Dredd would soon take over the book. If the market could bear 100-page Dredd epics, nothing about the form would prevent the publisher doing one.

I can't comment on webcomics but I would imagine they would have to keep the same basic rhthym even if they were emanicipated from some or all of the content-demands seen in newspapers.

A better comparison might be Eisner's SPIRIT. By the exigencies of that "comic-strip book," Eisner did have a fixed number of pages to deal with. But the more expansive format of the comic book allowed him to experiment with a lot more story-types than most newspaper comic strips ever can. PRINCE VALIANT might be a possible exception because it eschewed daily strips, but that's the only strip I know of that could do rapid changes from heavy drama to sitcom humor just as adroitly as THE SPIRIT.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I'm generally on your side in this debate, but you've lost me a bit with this particular example. The fact that newspaper strips are serialized, and very short form, whereas comic books are usually more episodic in nature and long form, is a big deal. This leads in most cases to works that are, by their very nature, vastly different. Its not an absolute thing, true, but its almost overwhelmingly the case. But I DO get your point that on some level the difference is irrelevant--I just think its a harder case to make with comics.

Compare this to TV, where while there's a ton of product made very differently from theatrical movies, there's also quite a lot made in almost exactly the same way, and even the stuff that isn't is quite varied. Movies are produced for TV all of the time, for example. Content on TV can be either serialized or episodic, very short form (even shorter than theatrical), medium form (about the same length as theatrical), or very long form (far longer than a theatrical movie).

Even theatrical content is too slippery to pin down. While many tend to forget about them, serials used to be a staple. The fact that they don't exist anymore doesn't invalidate their part in shaping movies.

To say movies are one thing, and TV another, ignores history. They've often had things in common, and even within themselves they've VARIED so much as to make defining them very difficult.


I agree that the way strips are published influences the way the creator designs the story and arranges the art.
But it´s not black and white.

Most strips are indeed "one-two-three punches" but then there´s many-many strips which had storylines that, like comicbooks, went for months and years.
Some even made History:

Prince Valiant, Tarzan, Phantom, Modesty Blaise, Garth, Flash Gordon, Agent X-31, the list goes on and on.

Most of these were in fact later collected and published in comicbook form.

I spent most of my 3rd grade (4th grade? memory escapes me) following the adventures of Flash Gordon in an underwater kingdom that were published in the "The Capital" newspaper my dad brought home after work.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I agree that the way strips are published influences the way the creator designs the story and arranges the art.
But it´s not black and white.

At least, not on Sundays. :tongue:

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Even the great story-arcs in comic strips have to communicated in the rhythm I've described: quick bursts, because even the Sunday strips are only able to communicate so much before running out of space. That's a restriction due to *form.*
.

This is Russ Manning´s Tarzan´s strip which was later collected in comicbook form.
No sign of the quick bursts you speak off.
I´d post Prince Valiant´s strip compilation as well, but I´d have to mobilise my armies to go rescue them from my sister. ^_^
http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/tarzanstrip1.jpg



Πόνος στο γάιδάρο μου


Χρειάζομαι την πίτσα.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Here´s a pic at the Modesty Blaise strips :cool: also compiled in comicbook form.

No short burst of anything, just a long, seamless, flowing story that was published one strip a day.

http://www.etherlair.com/images/net/modestystrip1.jpg

The list goes on and on.

[TCJohnson]

Πόνος στο γάιδάρο μου

Έχετε έναν γάιδαρο;

[Tommy]

You can do different things in a 22-page monthly than you can in a 6-page weekly strip anthology. Yet nobody considers 2000AD and Judge Dredd to be a different medium to the X-Men.

See also: graphic novels. Are they now an entirely different medium?

For that matter, you can do things in colour comics that you can't in black-and-white comics - are they now a different medium?

A book and a magazine are collections of printed paper bound together... are they the same medium?

The fact that most TV is produced in an episodic mass-produced fashion versus theatrical movies where the product is often produced with more care doesn't mean it HAS to be done that way. There are things made for TV that are made with the same care, and similar expectations to theatrical movies, and there are things made for theatrical release that are very mass produced and factory-like (in fact, a VERY large number of things if you include "direct to video" products--a kind of middle ground).

You really don't know my opinion of TV. I have much more respect for TV than I'll ever have for movies. Television and movies are RELATED media, not the same.

It doesn't change the fact that if you are going to make a TV show you have to go about doing it completely different from making a movie. I've spent nearly a decade studying Television Production and everything from the writing, directing, legal, acting, studio, and the audience are different between movies and TV.

While Made for TV movies straddle the divide they more often than not fall on the TV side of things.

To the viewer, not much. To the camera men and the editors and the directors, there is a huge difference.

Exactly.

[Charles RB]

In contrast, Judge Dredd, being a comic book, is only limited by the arbitrary decisions of the publisher, not by its *form.*

Judge Dredd is a strip in an anthology comic, not the comic itself. The form said comic uses is five short strips a week because that's how weekly anthology titles work.

I can't comment on webcomics but I would imagine they would have to keep the same basic rhthym even if they were emanicipated from some or all of the content-demands seen in newspapers.

Actually a lot of them will experiment with length and other narritive tricks.

[Charles RB]

A book and a magazine are collections of printed paper bound together... are they the same medium?

Not if it's a magazine about motorbikes. But if it's a magazine for pieces of short fiction, are those pieces really different to books? After all, you have books that just compile short prose fiction.

[Chris Lang]

Has anyone mentioned Miss Piggy? She could totally karate chop the shit out of anyone else on this list.

Miss Piggy is certainly a glaring omission.

The lack of Haruhi in this thread is disturbing...

Much better. :smile:

Haruhi... does she see a lot of action?

Kagome and Sango from Inuyasha might be considered action heroines...

(Just trying to get this back on track after that whole digression over genres).

[tangentman]

What about Laura Ingalls from Little House On The Prairie? She raced horses, fought schoolyard bullies, fended off wild dogs, tromped alone through the wilderness, survived a run-in with the Headless Horseman...

[Chris Lang]

What about Laura Ingalls from Little House On The Prairie? She raced horses, fought schoolyard bullies, fended off wild dogs, tromped alone through the wilderness, survived a run-in with the Headless Horseman...

Things kept getting Wilder for her, didn't they? :smile:

[tangentman]

Things kept getting Wilder for her, didn't they? :smile:

At least Laura wasn't a big ol' Nellie queen! :tongue:

[Gothos]

Agree to disagree with Zeu.

So what if anything does the thread's originator think of Modesty Blaise?

Or any of the other choices mentioned here.