Babylon 5

[Bill Thompson]

I was recently listening to a podcasts that I sometimes like but more often than not I end up disagreeing greatly with their idea of good TV. For instance the fact that nothing produced before 1994 can possibly be good TV according to them, and then they blew my mind when they decried B5 as a horrendous show that wasn't worth your time.

In my mind B5 is the best sci-fi show on TV and it changed the way that people viewed their TV. Thanks to B5 other TV shows stopped being episodic only in nature and realized that people were interested in long story arc where the characters changed, grew and didn't forget about what just happen to them when the credits rolled in any given episode. I still consider season 4 to be among the best seasons of TV ever produced and hold that up as the watermark for all sci-fi on TV and no full season has yet to come close. I know B5 wasn't ever a hit and it will always be more of a cult show, but any thoughts would be nice, even if they are disparaging, because variety is the spice of life.

Also, I have been doing episode by episode reviews of B5 and was thinking about posting them in this topic for anyone that is interested. But, I wanted to make sure that was cool before I did as such, so if its not any mod or admin just let me know and I won't bother posting them.

Cheers,
Bill

[Lord of Denial]

B5 was genius sci-fi.

Sleeping in Light might be my favorite series finale ever.

[Zero Hunter]

I loved B5. I will admit that seasons 1 and 5 were the weakest of the series, but season 2-4 are some of the best Sci-Fi TV I have seen.

[Solaris01]

Also, I have been doing episode by episode reviews of B5 and was thinking about posting them in this topic for anyone that is interested. But, I wanted to make sure that was cool before I did as such, so if its not any mod or admin just let me know and I won't bother posting them.

Cheers,
Bill

Sounds great! I'd read them. Actually, I haven't seen this show in years, but I have been wanting to watch it again. Awesome, awesome show overall. Pretty intriguing and grown up, imo. I think I'm going to rent it real soon (anybody knows where to look for it?); I love a good sci fi show, but besides the Trek franchise (and a lot of Star Gate), I just can't get into most other shows out there. I enjoy Doctor Who a lot, but I don't consider it that serious, if you know what I mean. :biggrin:

[Bill Thompson]

Sounds great! I'd read them. Actually, I haven't seen this show in years, but I have been wanting to watch it again. Awesome, awesome show overall. Pretty intriguing and grown up, imo. I think I'm going to rent it real soon (anybody knows where to look for it?); I love a good sci fi show, but besides the Trek franchise (and a lot of Star Gate), I just can't get into most other shows out there. I enjoy Doctor Who a lot, but I don't consider it that serious, if you know what I mean. :biggrin:

Cool, as soon as a mod/admin gives me the okay I will post them. Feel free to rip into them or agree with them here or on the site, it's all cool.

As for other sci-fi series, I loved Firefly and consider it the second best sci-fi ever on TV. For as much as B5 fans slag it, Deep Space Nine was by far the most complex, deep, and interesting of all the Trek series. I have wanted to get into Farscape, but the ridiculous prices for the DVD sets keep me away. I'm also going to get into the new BSG when it finally ends, so we'll see how that goes.

[Ilash]

While I do think that Babylon 5 is pretty rough around the edges in that it had some clunky dialogue, some wooden acting and the first and last seasons were a bit spotty, it stands as one of the most impressive sci-fi shows ever. The long-form storytelling was brilliantly done on the whole and even if I wasn't all that fond of all the characters (Delen!), the character arcs of Londo and G'Kar more than made up for it.

[Jared]

While I do think that Babylon 5 is pretty rough around the edges in that it had some clunky dialogue, some wooden acting and the first and last seasons were a bit spotty, it stands as one of the most impressive sci-fi shows ever. The long-form storytelling was brilliantly done on the whole and even if I wasn't all that fond of all the characters (Delen!), the character arcs of Londo and G'Kar more than made up for it.

That sums up my views almost exactly. I'd say the "spotty" is putting it nicely, in terms of the first and last seasons. There were some good episodes, but an awful lot of crap. Also, the first quarter or so of season 4 was good, but it unfortunately had to rush things because they were afraid the show wasn't getting a fifth season.

God, I hated Delenn. Hated.

I've long suspected that B5 inspired the New Jedi Order mega-arc in the Star Wars books. So, indirectly, B5 nearly destroyed the Expanded Universe.

[Ilash]

That sums up my views almost exactly. I'd say the "spotty" is putting it nicely, in terms of the first and last seasons. There were some good episodes, but an awful lot of crap. Also, the first quarter or so of season 4 was good, but it unfortunately had to rush things because they were afraid the show wasn't getting a fifth season.

God, I hated Delenn. Hated.

I'm actually kinda conflicted about season 4. Yes it was rushed but on the other hand, it was, probably because of this, the most compelling season of them all. So much happened in each of those episodes and by the time they finished you were really left wanting more.

And yeah, Delenn, yeeesh, was she annoying!

[rick]

The later seasons are likable enough, but there was nothing about Babylon 5 that was all that original or revolutionary.

[Ilash]

The later seasons are likable enough, but there was nothing about Babylon 5 that was all that original or revolutionary.

What in general or as a TV show? While I might agree that it wasn't all that original and revolutionary as a science fiction story (though even that's arguable) but as a television show? I for one had seen nothing remotely like it before it came along.

[rick]

What in general or as a TV show? While I might agree that it wasn't all that original and revolutionary as a science fiction story (though even that's arguable) but as a television show? I for one had seen nothing remotely like it before it came along.


In all seriousness, what was it that you found so original?

It was not the first sci-fi program to have a continuing storyline or to deal with "big" issues or multiple alien races.

The CGI was original. But that has more to do with the timing of the technological innovation then anything to do with the series itself.

What was it that was so new?

[Ilash]

In all seriousness, what was it that you found so original?

It was not the first sci-fi program to have a continuing storyline or to deal with "big" issues or multiple alien races.

The CGI was original. But that has more to do with the timing of the technological innovation then anything to do with the series itself.

What was it that was so new?

Wait, which sci-fi show before it did all of those things. I'm really drawing a blank. Most science fiction TV seemed to be much more episodic to me before Babylon 5 came along.

[Julusnc]

I watched every episode as it aired which was a problem with all the time slot chnages over five seasons but the B5 STORY AS A WHOLE IS AMAZING!

[Syzygy]

I purchased all five boxed DVD sets of B-5 around 2-3 months ago. Got them on sale for $20 apiece.

Never saw the show on TV.

So far, I only watched the very first episode of season 1. It didn't grab me very much, so I'm pleased to find it gets a lot better.

I just finished watching seasons 1-6 of Smallville on DVD (first time), and now I'm just starting Lois and Clark (got 1-4 on DVD for $16.95 each).

If L&C gets boring, or when I'm done with it, I'll restart B-5. (I should add that I find the disc quality to L&C so far to be pretty poor. While I've only seen three episodes, it could use some remastering.)

Till then, I'll drop by as long as this threads alive. Maybe it'll whet my appetite a little.

I watched every episode as it aired which was a problem with all the time slot chnages over five seasons but the B5 STORY AS A WHOLE IS AMAZING!

Looks like I'll be getting my full $100 worth. Good news if true.:smile:

[rick]

Wait, which sci-fi show before it did all of those things. I'm really drawing a blank. Most science fiction TV seemed to be much more episodic to me before Babylon 5 came along.

I was spoiled by the Brits, I admit it.

In the 1980’s I was a huge fan of Blake’s 7 a tense, politically charged series that had long term, continuing stories that recognized changes from earlier eposides, switched its main character midway through the series and built toward a climatic and memorable ending.

It was an excellent series that I highly recommend to anyone who has never seen it.

When I watched Babylon 5, I was actually struck by some of the thematic similarities to Blake’s although I want to make clear that I don’t believe in any way shape or form that the folks behind Babylon 5 actually stole anything, it’s just the kind of story bits that most epics of these types are going to run into.


And before Babylon 5, Star Trek certainly followed various alien races on a regular basis, although I do have to say that in my opinion Babylon 5 did a much better job of making their aliens, alien.

It’s not that I’m saying anything bad about Babylon 5, because I thought it was a great little series that every once in awhile would border on the brilliant. And there are few people out there who are bigger Lando fans then I am. It’s just that while I did like the show, it never hit me as being as good as its biggest fans say it is.

[Nate Grey]

Still haven't seen ANY of the final season. Next time its $20 at Best Buy I'm gonna grab it.

And I didn't mind Delenn. Well, not after she got hair at least.

[Ilash]

I was spoiled by the Brits, I admit it.

In the 1980’s I was a huge fan of Blake’s 7 a tense, politically charged series that had long term, continuing stories that recognized changes from earlier eposides, switched its main character midway through the series and built toward a climatic and memorable ending.

It was an excellent series that I highly recommend to anyone who has never seen it.

When I watched Babylon 5, I was actually struck by some of the thematic similarities to Blake’s although I want to make clear that I don’t believe in any way shape or form that the folks behind Babylon 5 actually stole anything, it’s just the kind of story bits that most epics of these types are going to run into.

Ah, OK, I have never seen Blake's 7, though I have heard of it, thanks to reading SFX magazine a whole lot when I was younger.


And before Babylon 5, Star Trek certainly followed various alien races on a regular basis, although I do have to say that in my opinion Babylon 5 did a much better job of making their aliens, alien.

However much I like some Trek (especially the classic stuff), I think that B5 was a huge leap forward from what they were doing there. Londo and G'Kar's arcs had absolutely no parallel in Star Trek.

It’s not that I’m saying anything bad about Babylon 5, because I thought it was a great little series that every once in awhile would border on the brilliant. And there are few people out there who are bigger Lando fans then I am. It’s just that while I did like the show, it never hit me as being as good as its biggest fans say it is.

Well, like I said, I do think that it has its problems but I do see it as easily being one of the best science fiction shows that I've seen. It's not Firefly but it's damn good anyway.

[Jared]

In the 1980’s I was a huge fan of Blake’s 7 a tense, politically charged series that had long term, continuing stories that recognized changes from earlier eposides, switched its main character midway through the series and built toward a climatic and memorable ending.

It was a British series, so its entire run consisted of what, 15 episodes? :biggrin:


And before Babylon 5, Star Trek certainly followed various alien races on a regular basis,

I don't see how TOS or TNG did this in any meaningful way. Sure, some of the same aliens would show up more than once, and sometimes the current episode would be affected by a previous one, but there were no continuous story arcs that went through the whole series. The Romulans, Vulcans, and Klingons were never explored as much as the Narn, Minbari or Centauri were.

That said, there's nothing wrong with being more episodic. Personally I think DS9 found the happy medium between that and B5's approach.


And there are few people out there who are bigger Lando fans then I am.


Indeed.

http://garlinggauge.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/lando6-2.jpg

[rick]

Indeed.

http://garlinggauge.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/lando6-2.jpg


What a difference a single vowel can make. :eek:


http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/1245/londoze4.jpg

[Nate Grey]

And see here I was thinking Lando was in the final season of B5, the only season and episodes I didn't see. I was about to order it NOW, price be damned.

[bert]

I purchased all five boxed DVD sets of B-5 around 2-3 months ago. Got them on sale for $20 apiece.

Never saw the show on TV.

So far, I only watched the very first episode of season 1. It didn't grab me very much, so I'm pleased to find it gets a lot better.


Looks like I'll be getting my full $100 worth. Good news if true.:smile:

yes, it's true.

FORCE yourself to get thru the 1st season.

it's very spotty, and some of the episodes/aliens are jaw-droppingly awful (you'll be happy to know the Preyeing Mantis alien arms dealer disappears after only a few episodes).

however, you need knowlege from some of the 1st season episodes to fully enjoy the masterwork that was seasons 2-4.

season 3 in particular was just astoundingly brilliant, and refers back to things from some of the earliest episodes.

season 1 is the show finding it's way.

Season 5 is the show trying to find a mini-arc to continue, since they wrapped up the 5 year arc in Season 4 due to the threat of cancellation. There are some very good episodes in Season 5 (particularly, the Neil Gaiman written and Peter David written ones). . .and the final episode is incredible (it was filmed as the last ep of Season 4, but bumped a year when Season 5 was greenlit).

treat yourself and watch it!

[Zero Hunter]

I purchased all five boxed DVD sets of B-5 around 2-3 months ago. Got them on sale for $20 apiece.

Never saw the show on TV.

So far, I only watched the very first episode of season 1. It didn't grab me very much, so I'm pleased to find it gets a lot better.

I just finished watching seasons 1-6 of Smallville on DVD (first time), and now I'm just starting Lois and Clark (got 1-4 on DVD for $16.95 each).

If L&C gets boring, or when I'm done with it, I'll restart B-5. (I should add that I find the disc quality to L&C so far to be pretty poor. While I've only seen three episodes, it could use some remastering.)

Till then, I'll drop by as long as this threads alive. Maybe it'll whet my appetite a little.



Looks like I'll be getting my full $100 worth. Good news if true.:smile:

Season one really is mostly them finding their way on the series and set up. With that said some of the the things in season 1 that JMS sets up start paying off huge in latter seasons.

[Ontir]

Signs & Portents is the ep where the series REALLY begins!

[Rabid Trekkie]

I bought and watched all of B5 last year. Like Rick said, it wasn't really original, the first and last seasons were hit and miss, and there were times when the actors and guest actors were either not on their game or trying to hard to knock their performance into the cheap seats.

Yet I still love this show. A nice blend of sci-fi and fantasy, big ideas brought down to personal levels, some awesome space battles, good guys against a corrupt government, and of course Garibaldi, Bester, Londo, and G'Kar. In fact just for those four characters the show should have won some kind of an award. This series is probably one of my best purchases.

[Ontir]

The thing about the show is that the first season was basically setting up a universe for a planned epic. We get the landscape established with one episode, Signs & Portents that begins the epic.

Season 2 that storyline is building rapidly and by season 3 it's in full swing. It was always meant to be 5 seasons and no more or less. Unfortunately it was a part of PTEN, a syndication company that provided series to independent stations, of which their were many in the first year or so, but those stations quickly became Fox and increasingly WB affiliates. If the show hadn't been such a strong seller in Germany it wouldn't have made it to season 3.

Season 4 was barely managed and they were certain 5 was impossible, so they made sure they got through the bulk of the epic storyline in that one season. Then they got renewed for season 5. PTEN, for whatever reason decided a few seasons earlier to hold the final 4 episodes of the previous season so America hadn't seen 4's finalé, Sleeping in Light. When the show was unexpectedly renewed a new ender for season 4 was produced and "SiL" was saved for the end of 5. With the major story having been told, they had to pick up abandoned plot-threads and put together a new season 5. Some of it was quite good, but it was essentially filler and ultimately ended with Sleeping in Light which aside from the end of Seinfeld, is the most disappointing end of a show I can remember.

Seasons 2 - 4 though, are really good and intense TV. JMS' dialogue is ham-fisted on more than a few occasions, but there's a really strong cast and some amazing stories bolstered by the best CGI we'd ever seen on TV.

[Rabid Trekkie]

The thing about the show is that the first season was basically setting up a universe for a planned epic. We get the landscape established with one episode, Signs & Portents that begins the epic.

Season 2 that storyline is building rapidly and by season 3 it's in full swing. It was always meant to be 5 seasons and no more or less. Unfortunately it was a part of PTEN, a syndication company that provided series to independent stations, of which their were many in the first year or so, but those stations quickly became Fox and increasingly WB affiliates. If the show hadn't been such a strong seller in Germany it wouldn't have made it to season 3.

Season 4 was barely managed and they were certain 5 was impossible, so they made sure they got through the bulk of the epic storyline in that one season. Then they got renewed for season 5. PTEN, for whatever reason decided a few seasons earlier to hold the final 4 episodes of the previous season so America hadn't seen 4's finalé, Sleeping in Light. When the show was unexpectedly renewed a new ender for season 4 was produced and "SiL" was saved for the end of 5. With the major story having been told, they had to pick up abandoned plot-threads and put together a new season 5. Some of it was quite good, but it was essentially filler and ultimately ended with Sleeping in Light which aside from the end of Seinfeld, is the most disappointing end of a show I can remember.

Seasons 2 - 4 though, are really good and intense TV. JMS' dialogue is ham-fisted on more than a few occasions, but there's a really strong cast and some amazing stories bolstered by the best CGI we'd ever seen on TV.

I understand (after doing a bit of looking into B5, wanted to know what I was getting into) all of that and understand why Seasons 1 and 5 aren't the best. Actually the stories in both seasons weren't really my problem, they were more sci-fi standard with a couple twist and turns unique to B5, but the acting in those seasons wasn't that great. Sinclair only seemed to have two emotions, wooden and angry, and except for Londo, the rest of the actors in Season one weren't that great. Of course in Season 2 they all hit their stride in their performances, but still we'd get some guest stars who just never seemed to get it right.

And like I said, I love it problems and all. Course I still say TOS is the best Trek so I'm okay with problems in my sci-fi viewing.

[Ontir]

Yeah, there were problems with O'Hare. I'm not sure exactly what but in an interview once the great Claudia Christian said that "O'Hare just didn't get it!" This was after she tried not to talk about his departure. I believe he was invited to find other employment. His removal allowed for them to heighten the mystery of what was going on in Earthdome. Sinclair, like Lyta Alexander, the station's first medical chief, and later Talia Winters, were all ushered out by tPTB after various experiences, leaving the remaining and new characters to wonder what the hell was going on. It actually helped.

[40yearoldnovafan]

I loved Babylon 5. I love Firefly. In my opinion, these were two of the best Sci Fi series I have seen on television.

Nuff said!

[Bill Thompson]

Here are the links to what I have done so far,

Babylon 5 Review Structure (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/05/07/babylon-5-review-structure/)

Midnight On The Firing Line (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/05/08/review-babylon-5-101/)

Soul Hunter (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/05/17/review-babylon-5-102/)

Born To The Purple (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/05/20/review-bablyon-5-103/)

Infection (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/05/25/review-babylon-5-104/)

The Parliament Of Dreams (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/05/28/review-babylon-5-105/)

Mind War (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/06/01/review-babylon-5-106/)

The War Prayer (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/06/15/review-babylon-5-107/)

And The Sky Full Of Stars (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/06/22/review-babylon-5-108/)

Deathwalker (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/06/29/review-babylon-5-109/)

Believers (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/07/20/review-babylon-5-110/)

Survivors (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/07/26/review-babylon-5-111/)

By Any Means Necessary (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/08/03/review-babylon-5-112/)

And finally, my latest one,

Signs And Portents (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/08/16/review-babylon-5-113/)

For those who are interested I hope you find them the tiniest bit enjoyable, my wordiness be damned!

Cheers,
Bill

PS; On the O' Hare front, I don't think a lot of people ever understood what he was doing with the Sinclair character, but I loved what he did with it. Admittedly he was bad in action scenes, but the rest of the time he was trying to put forward a very philosophical, cerebral, and introspective commanding officer, and I loved that compared to all the other gung-ho CO's in sci-fi at the time.

[Ontir]

Anyone seen the first "Lost Tales?" I bought it with a Christmas Giftcard and enjoyed it, though it was only a little bit, and it's been far too long waiting for the next installment!

[Bill Thompson]

I saw it and own it, it was okay. The second story was much more B5 than the first story that felt too heavy handed, forced, and very non-B5. Unfortunately as of right now there won't be any more Lost Tales. Basically JMS came out with a statement where he said unless WB gives him money to do a feature then he won't do anything else that is B5. I think it's a further sign of how arrogant and conceited JMS is, and a sign that maybe he's not as good of a writer as he thinks he is if he can't write a good story unless he has a lot of money to work with, because that's what he's saying.

[Ontir]

It's too bad. His dialogue is always heavy handed in the B5 universe, which is too bad, because it isn't so in his comics.

The problem with the Lost Tale story is that it's divided in two when it should have been one episode with multiple things happening.

I can see JMS wanting to use whatever leverage he can to get a B5 movie going. He's been trying for years with no luck. The B5 disks have sold very well, which is why there was interest in the Lost Tales. "Firefly" got a feature with far less sales, so why not B5? I don't think he was saying he can't write for less money, it's just he's got a project he's wanted to do for years and he's trying to get it made.

[Greygor]

It was a British series, so its entire run consisted of what, 15 episodes? :biggrin:



Yeah we have a bad rep for that, but in general we do to tend to try for a short season of well written episodes than a long season of so so scripts :evilsmile:

But to put the record straight Blake's 7 ran for 4 seasons, 52 episodes. An obvious Star Wars inspired BBC shaky set and bad special effects series, yet I watched every week.

So like Dr. Who (751 episodes), The Survivors (38 episodes), Tomorrow People (68 episodes), Doomwatch (38 episodes), Sapphire & Steel (34 episodes) it had a fair run.

One side effect of this, and again I speak in generalisations, is that a UK series is more likely to finish before the ideas run out :smile: and you get more variety in a years schedule because you have to have many different programs to fill the slots rather than a few that run for 20 or so weeks each year.

I do not count Last of the Summer Wine in the above statement, 275 episodes, which generally consist of getting 3 old men into a wheeled bath and pushing it gown a hill :rolleyes:

[Bill Thompson]

It's too bad. His dialogue is always heavy handed in the B5 universe, which is too bad, because it isn't so in his comics.

I'm the exact opposite, I never found his B5 dialogue heavy handed until TLT and have never been a fan of any of his comic work because of how heavy handed his comic dialogue is and how he doesn't understand to just let some things be expressed visually as opposed to in a word bubble.

[Ontir]

It was a British series, so its entire run consisted of what, 15 episodes?

Blake's 7 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076987/) lasted 52 fantastic episodes.

Some of the dialogue, especially Sheridan's was entirely ham-fisted. His final speech to the Shadows & Vorlons is cringe-inducing.

[Bill Thompson]

Blake's 7 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0076987/) lasted 52 fantastic episodes.

Some of the dialogue, especially Sheridan's was entirely ham-fisted. His final speech to the Shadows & Vorlons is cringe-inducing.

Ooh, I can't disagree vehemently enough. Sheridan was the essential captain and I found his dialogue to be among the best in the entire series, only behind that of Katsulas and Jurasik actually. The final speech to the Vorlons and Shadows is especially great as it really encapsulates everything that the series has been about till that point and how the Shadows and Vorlons need to leave the children to be by themselves now, it couldn't have been delivered any better.

[Ontir]

The speech needed to be there, but some of the dialogue in it is horrendous. My friends and I, all diehard fans, burst into laughter as he was saying it. The consensus was, "Just another of those bad-dialogue moments."

Katsulas and Jurasik were gods on the show! Neither were or are appreciated as much as they should be.

[cactusmaac]

Yeah. I've been rewatching old episodes and it's amazing how good they were. Londo's moral destruction and G'Kar's transition from war-monger to resistance leader to spiritual guide haven't been topped as character arcs.

B5's probably my all-time favourite show. The themes it dealt with had more depth than anything else done on TV, let alone sci-fi. Episodes like Deathwalker, And The Sky Full Of Stars, Intersections In Real Time, Survivors, Believers, Gropos, Passing Through Gethsemane, A Late Delivery from Avalon and By Any Means Necessary are genuine classics.

[Jared]

I felt the dialogue on B5 was often cringe-worthy too. Not only some of the speeches, but whenever awfully blatant exposition would be clunkily placed into "everyday" conversation. That happened quite often.

[Bill Thompson]

Yeah. I've been rewatching old episodes and it's amazing how good they were. Londo's moral destruction and G'Kar's transition from war-monger to resistance leader to spiritual guide haven't been topped as character arcs.

B5's probably my all-time favourite show. The themes it dealt with had more depth than anything else done on TV, let alone sci-fi. Episodes like Deathwalker, And The Sky Full Of Stars, Intersections In Real Time, Survivors, Believers, Gropos, Passing Through Gethsemane, A Late Delivery from Avalon and By Any Means Necessary are genuine classics.

Ugh, Survivors, really? That episode single handedly made a joke out of alcoholism and almost turned me off of the show when I first started watching it.

[cactusmaac]

I felt the dialogue on B5 was often cringe-worthy too. Not only some of the speeches, but whenever awfully blatant exposition would be clunkily placed into "everyday" conversation. That happened quite often.

True. JMS could have done with an editor.

Ugh, Survivors, really? That episode single handedly made a joke out of alcoholism and almost turned me off of the show when I first started watching it.

I liked it. Made a nice change from all the plastic perfect crew members on Next Gen.

[Bill Thompson]

I liked it. Made a nice change from all the plastic perfect crew members on Next Gen.

The show had already done that, what with Sinclair's problems with living in general that had been explored in the first few eps. I have no problem with Garibaldi being an alcoholic mind you, just the way they handled. They treated drinking as something an alcoholic could just jump into and back out of no problems at all, and that's just idiotic.

[Ontir]

It is the future, maybe they have meds that can help with that.

I never found Garibaldi's drinking to be handled un-realistically. I've known people who've been dry for years, then gone off the wagon for a week, gotten back on, and been fine since, or for years at least.

[Bill Thompson]

It is the future, maybe they have meds that can help with that.

I never found Garibaldi's drinking to be handled un-realistically. I've known people who've been dry for years, then gone off the wagon for a week, gotten back on, and been fine since, or for years at least.

As someone that has worked in a field that deals with alcoholics and is in a family full of alcoholics, those people are the exceptions rather than the rule. And, more often than not they say that they can get on and off the wagon whenever they want when in actuality they start a slow spiral towards being an alcoholic again the moment they start drinking again. There's a reason alcoholism is a legitimate medical disease after all.

As for Garibaldi's drinking, I thought it was handled perfectly in season 5, and it was handled really well in every episode that wasn't Survivors, where it was handled in piss poor fashion.

[StoneGold]

The show had already done that, what with Sinclair's problems with living in general that had been explored in the first few eps. I have no problem with Garibaldi being an alcoholic mind you, just the way they handled. They treated drinking as something an alcoholic could just jump into and back out of no problems at all, and that's just idiotic.

It was the future.

Was? Is? Will be? Guh. Damn fourth dimensional logic!

[Zahir]

Babylon 5 was groundbreaking in several respects.

First, it was the first space-based science fiction show on American television to try to be scientifically accurate and come pretty close to doing it--given that some tech was supposed to be so advanced as to be virtually magic (like the Shadows, the Vorlons, some Minbari tech, etc.). It was extremely consistent in how the imaginary world it had created worked, far more so than (for example) any TREK ever.

Second, it was the first such show on American t.v. that used an overall story arc every season and in fact for the whole run of the show. Later TREKS (like DS9 and VOY) tried to do the same, but with far less consistency.

More importantly, this was the first "space series" to become a success without being part of the TREK franchise. When it started out, and for the first couple of years, whenever I mentioned B5 everyone simply assumed it was a TREK. They'd say things "Well, its made by different people but set in the same universe, right?" Before B5, not one American science fiction series set in the future lasted more than a season, at least not since the premiere of ST:TOS. Battlestar: Galactica, Space Rangers, Quark, The Starlost, etc. Buck Rogers lasted two seasons, but the second was so retooled as to be an entirely different program. Yet after B5, we got such shows as Farscape, the new BSG and the late, lamented Firefly (which didn't last but got a feature film).

Likewise, it raised the bar in terms of dramatic storytelling in the genre on t.v.--so much so TREK even borrowed a few plot devices after they worked on B5 (like a would-be military coup within the Federation, save that in TREK of course it didn't succeed). Religion was taken seriously in science fiction, and that has continued, rather than the dismissive way TREK simply called all faith superstition, all believers simple at best and outright villains at worst.

More impressively in some ways, and frankly I wonder how much of an impact this has had, B5 was a series made on a fraction of the budget of most science fiction shows and it stayed on budget. It had been designed that way from the start. No small feat, albeit one can see how important that might be for later producers looking to get their series picked up.

[Ontir]

As someone that has worked in a field that deals with alcoholics and is in a family full of alcoholics, those people are the exceptions rather than the rule. And, more often than not they say that they can get on and off the wagon whenever they want when in actuality they start a slow spiral towards being an alcoholic again the moment they start drinking again. There's a reason alcoholism is a legitimate medical disease after all.

As for Garibaldi's drinking, I thought it was handled perfectly in season 5, and it was handled really well in every episode that wasn't Survivors, where it was handled in piss poor fashion.

I guess I've known and been related to a number of exceptions. It worked for me, and was pretty accurate to what I've seen. I didn't know anyone in AA until I came to Los Angeles. Everyone back east was just a drunk - the ones who DON'T attend meetings.

[Bill Thompson]

New review is up,

TKO (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/08/24/review-babylon-5-114/)

[Jared]

I remember thinking that episode sucked. And yes, the "greatest martial artists in the galaxy" looked rather pathetic. I sort of chalk that up the same way I do the SFX in the early seasons: pretend that in the "reality" of the show, it looks better than what you're seeing. I'm sure they didn't have the time or budget to hire top-notch stunt men and choreographers for one episode. Of course, it's easier to ignore crappy looking spaceships than it is crappy looking fight scenes. This was a problem later in the series, as the Rangers and their amazing fighting staffs became more prevalent. I never bought for a second that these guys were so bad ass that they didn't need guns.

[metr0man]

B5 is a good show that succeeds mainly because of the overall storytelling and great plotting and earnestness.

It does have some really bad acting, and even the ones the fans tout as superb emmy-worthy acting is really just "pretty good", but maybe it seems amazing next to some really amateurish acting of the rest of the cast. And the dialogue and "humor" is at times downright horrible. See, every "funny" Ivanova moment in the series. In fact, Ivanova, takes the cake, bad acting, bad dialogue, and bad dialogue delivery - in fact she only had one scene in the entire damn series where i'd say she actually did good acting and it was her last scene filmed (not aired)! Though the worst actor was Jeff Conway. Most of the others were mediocre, but JMS smartly started writing his characters to fit the actors' natural personalities, and that helps things considerably. But sci-fi shows in general seem to have a much lower "threshold" of acting than other genres.

the show deserves credit though for rising above bad acting and bad dialogue and facing cancellation every year, to still be a really good sci-fi series. There are some legitimately powerful moments, particularly in season 3 which is imo the strongest beginning-to-end season of the series. There was a time where I'd have called it one of the best SF TV series period... but in retrospect, that was more because of the low quality of SF-TV series in general, since then shows like BSG, Farscape, Firefly, LOST, and a few others have been even better.

[Bill Thompson]

I remember thinking that episode sucked. And yes, the "greatest martial artists in the galaxy" looked rather pathetic. I sort of chalk that up the same way I do the SFX in the early seasons: pretend that in the "reality" of the show, it looks better than what you're seeing. I'm sure they didn't have the time or budget to hire top-notch stunt men and choreographers for one episode. Of course, it's easier to ignore crappy looking spaceships than it is crappy looking fight scenes. This was a problem later in the series, as the Rangers and their amazing fighting staffs became more prevalent. I never bought for a second that these guys were so bad ass that they didn't need guns.

I bought that about the Rangers no problem, it's just an extension of Japanese culture. I never had any problem with the spaceship effects however, especially in battles. There were sometimes when the effects weren't as good as they could be, and I do mention those in my reviews, but there wasn't ever a battle sequence where I thought the effects were bad, I loved em actually.

[Jared]

I bought that about the Rangers no problem, it's just an extension of Japanese culture. I never had any problem with the spaceship effects however, especially in battles. There were sometimes when the effects weren't as good as they could be, and I do mention those in my reviews, but there wasn't ever a battle sequence where I thought the effects were bad, I loved em actually.

You bought into the Rangers? I always saw them as Poor Man's Jedi, rather lamely shoved into major roles in the show. At first they're presented as scouts and couriers yet they're always in all-black uniforms. Not exactly blending in. There retractable fighting staffs are kinda neat, but hardly an impressive weapon. They have no powers to go along with them, so what's the point?

[Bill Thompson]

You bought into the Rangers? I always saw them as Poor Man's Jedi, rather lamely shoved into major roles in the show. At first they're presented as scouts and couriers yet they're always in all-black uniforms. Not exactly blending in. There retractable fighting staffs are kinda neat, but hardly an impressive weapon. They have no powers to go along with them, so what's the point?

Actually most Rangers were not in all black, only the soldier Rangers were in all black. They made it a big point early on of showing scenes with big groupings of Rangers where they were mainly in civilian clothes.

The Rangers honestly aren't supposed to fight, they are the eyes and ears of whomever they serve and only fight as a last resort, that is why the carry a weapon such as the pike. They don't go around blasting people, but rather try to diffuse situations however they can without resorting to brute strength. Their numbers are so few that they know they will always be at a disadvantage when it comes to brute force in numbers.

[LordEd1976]

I've always been a fan of Marcus. My favorite moment is when he takes down an entire bar and then laments that he didn't leave any concious to answer questions.

[Ontir]

You bought into the Rangers? I always saw them as Poor Man's Jedi, rather lamely shoved into major roles in the show. At first they're presented as scouts and couriers yet they're always in all-black uniforms. Not exactly blending in. There retractable fighting staffs are kinda neat, but hardly an impressive weapon. They have no powers to go along with them, so what's the point?

I loved the Rangers. With the replacement of Sinclair their history got a bit altered, but they were mentioned by Sinclair (to some extent) in the pilot. They were a somewhat religious order, but didn't have any unifying power, it was just about the ideals of coming together to improve life for all. I think that's a worthwhile motive and justification for existence. They weren't in black, but usually brown. They also went under cover and were un-seen and un-noticed by a great many. I love the bit when Delenn was trying to figure out what to do with the Pak M'Ra. In case people don't remember, they are carrion eaters with cuddle fish faces. They are said to smell and be rather slothful in motion. Delenn decided that as they are considered unseemly, smelly, and untouchable by so many, yet they go everywhere, they would be ideal intel gatherers rather than warriors. When put to that task, they performed admirably.

I loved Marcus Cole! He was fiercely loyal, and desperately in love with Ivanova. He sacrificed his life, still a virgin, for the love of her, and that really choked me up. The desolation in Ivanova when she realized what he'd done was palpable.

[Dark Galaxy]

I loved Babylon 5!

So much, that my son's middle name is Sheridan :biggrin: (not Sinclair)

At Christmas time they had the seasons on sale for 18 bucks a pop. I bought them all.

Upon rewatching, season 1 is just as hard to get through. Even though I know the fun times that are coming, it is not the best tv ever. Season 5 is rough for many reasons, but also because I keep wanting to open a beer bottle on the cheekbones of Capt. Lochley. Seasons 2-4 are the chewy nougat of goodness in the center.

[Jared]

The way Marcus died really bothered me. So he used that device from S1 that transfers life energy, killing himself to save her. Instead of doing it all himself, why not transfer the energy from multiple people into the patient? IIRC, nobody ever even seemed to consider the possibility of trying it.

I don't remember the Rangers being talked about in season1.

Incidentally, were the Technomages human or Centauri?

[Ontir]

Sinclair alludes to a prototype of the Rangers, his friends who are watching. Had he stayed we'd have been further introduced to them, but with Sheridan's arrival they were re-worked, as was the connection between the Station's Commander and the Shadows. It was to have been Sinclair's brother who had been to Za'ha Dum, but instead it became Anna Sheridan.

We don't know what the Technomages were exactly. That was something meant to be discovered during Crusade. Galen was going to train Dureena Nafeel over the course of the series. I think they are comprised of beings from many worlds, possibly a 3rd course charted by another great ancient race. Instead of the Shadows strife or the Vorlons nurture, the Technomages were trained in highly advanced works and devices, changing the course of civilizations and inspiring along the way.

I think the thing was that the device had been locked away because the good doctor was using it all the time, at his own detriment. When Marcus broke it out he was all alone and there was no one to turn it off when Ivanova had enough.

[Bill Thompson]

The way Marcus died really bothered me. So he used that device from S1 that transfers life energy, killing himself to save her. Instead of doing it all himself, why not transfer the energy from multiple people into the patient? IIRC, nobody ever even seemed to consider the possibility of trying it.

Outside of Franklin, Ivanova, Garibaldi, Sheridan, Delenn, and Lennier, no one on B5 knew about the alien healing device. Franklin had locked it away after using it on Garibaldi in the beginning of season 2 and labeled it as too dangerous to ever be used until it could further be studied. Marcus was fearful of Ivanova dying and had to break into the medlab just to get access to Ivanova and the machine. He made a rash choice, there's wasn't that much time left, and as seen by the litany of bodies left in his wake people weren't cooperating with him to begin with, let alone willing to give some of their life energy.

Incidentally, were the Technomages human or Centauri?

They were multi-cultural. They were the constructs of the Shadows, given their technology by the Shadows to be their soldiers in war, but they were from many different alien races.

[Bill Thompson]

New review is up,

Grail (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/08/27/review-babylon-5-115/)

[jesse_custer]

I was spoiled by the Brits, I admit it.

In the 1980’s I was a huge fan of Blake’s 7 a tense, politically charged series that had long term, continuing stories that recognized changes from earlier eposides, switched its main character midway through the series and built toward a climatic and memorable ending.

It was an excellent series that I highly recommend to anyone who has never seen it.

Blake's 7 is not only the most brilliant sci-fi television series I've seen. It's one of the best shows I've watched period. (Its only weakness was the special effects. The budget must have been less than a sphagetti western's.)

[Ontir]

I'd love to see this adapted to the big screen. Get George Clooney to play "Blake" along with an international cast. Continue the storyline where Blake goes missing. Top-notch SFX and an ever-changing roster of characters.

Terry Nation created a series as compelling as the Daleks, which takes some doing, and if anything deserves to be re-visited, it's this outstanding universe.

[Solaris01]

Ugh, I really want to watch this show again (Babylon 5)!

It's been so long since I saw it the last time. I don't even remember a lot of it. I think I never watched the last episode! However, what I remember from it, I really liked. I have to rent it soon!! :tongue: I want to share my favorite parts with you guys, and also hear you favorite parts and episodes as well. Ah, the power of the internet. :biggrin:

[Bill Thompson]

New one is up,

Eyes (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/08/31/review-babylon-5-116/)

[Ontir]

You know you can freely, LEGALLY watch all the (season 1 & 2) episodes @ hulu.com (http://www.hulu.com/babylon-5)!

[Bill Thompson]

New one is good to go,

Legacies (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/09/03/review-babylon-5-117/)

[Bill Thompson]

New one,

A Voice In The Wilderness, Part 1 (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/09/06/review-babylon-5-118/)

[darkwolf]

I loved the show but the John Sheridan character never interested me. He was a bit boring.

[Ontir]

I liked Sheridan, but the problem was his dialogue was always so hammy he should've had an apple stuffed in his mouth! :tongue:

[Bill Thompson]

New one,

A Voice In The Wilderness, Part 2 (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/09/09/review-babylon-5-119/)

[Bill Thompson]

Another one,

Babylon Squared (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/09/13/review-babylon-5-120/)

[Bill Thompson]

Nearing the end of S1,

The Quality Of Mercy (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/09/16/review-babylon-5-121/)

[Matt K]

Thanks Bill, I've been watching the first season and it's nice to see some comments to go with the episodes. But man are some of these episodes bad. Most are decent but not great but TKO was probably the worst episode of anything I've ever seen. I like Ivonova's story but the fighting half was bad. The worst was when she finally broke down and we got this sad scene, we then cut to two guys beating the crap out of each other. I ended up just skipping that whole plot. Any Means was pretty bad too but Believers was such a hackney episode and made me think Dr. Franklin was an ass.

I watched season 4 when it came on but now I remember why I stopped watching the show pretty early on into season 1.


EDIT: Man, Bill seems to be right on with the same criticisms I had. However, for Believers I was in the family's camp from the beginning so Dr Franklin seemed like a pompous ass from the start. That said, their belief system really didn't hold up to any scrutiny and thus knocked the episode down even further in my opinion (that being a decent but unimportant one) plus the parallels with Ivonova rang false and I would have loved to see some mention on her escape if not the full scene. Any Means was decent but ultimately forgettable. The G'Kar plot was great and I won't knock that. The dock worker plot was decent but very predictable. I look forward to reading more reviews as I go. Great work Bill.

[Bill Thompson]

Thanks for the words, and now the final episode of season one.

Chrysalis (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/09/19/review-babylon-5-122/)

[Bill Thompson]

Season one is now complete,

Season 1: Signs And Portents (1994) (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/09/23/review-babylon-5-season-1-1994/)

[Bill Thompson]

It's time for more Babylon 5, thus kicks off my reviews of season 2,

Points Of Departure (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/10/31/review-babylon-5-201/)

[Jared]

Thanks for the words, and now the final episode of season one.

Chrysalis (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/09/19/review-babylon-5-122/)


How exactly can the Senator order Sinclair to remain silent? She is well outside the chain of command and has no direct authority over Sinclair.

This may be nitpicky but, I'm wondering about this criticism. Do we actually know that much detail about how the chain of command works in the Earth Alliance? Is it just an assumption that it's the same as the U.S., and therefore a Senator has no
military authority?

[Halcyon]

IIRC in S3 Sheridan states that Senators can not give orders to Earthforce Personnel. I'm presuming the Senator in S1 was simply passing orders from the Military to Sinclair for some reason.

[Bill Thompson]

This may be nitpicky but, I'm wondering about this criticism. Do we actually know that much detail about how the chain of command works in the Earth Alliance? Is it just an assumption that it's the same as the U.S., and therefore a Senator has no
military authority?

Actually, we do, because of the episode The Point of No Return, where a high ranking General gives Sheridan the information he needs to stop the Nightwatch takeover by letting him know that the order came from a civilian office and therefore it's outside the chain of command and Sheridan doesn't have to follow it. A Senator is a civilian outside the chain of command, so she shouldn't be ordering any EarthForce officer around.

Edit: Beaten to it.

[Bill Thompson]

New review,

Revelations (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/11/09/review-babylon-5-202/)

[Bill Thompson]

New review,

The Geometry Of Shadows (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/11/16/review-babylon-5-203/)

[Bill Thompson]

New review,

A Distant Star (http://worldsoforos.com/secondviews/2008/11/23/review-babylon-5-204/)