Catwoman, back to "Bad"

[matt levin]

If I understand the last pages of the most recent Catwoman comic, Selina's decided (well, her writers decided) to return to her criminal past and take up being a badguygirl again. &, if I understand the recent Previews, this happens two issues before the series ends.

Too bad. The first forty issues of this series are wonderful, exciting, thoughtful and make sense, when so little of this character's previous incarnations have. So these, for me, comprise 'my' Catwoman canon. Sorry to see (what I view as) lack of talent and idea returning Selina to lesser lights.

Anyone feel similarly, or differently?

Matt

[carabas]

Absolutely.
It's a damn shame, but I think it was always just a matter of time, especially after the 'magicked into reforming' retcon.

[ashez2ashes]

Oh I hated that magic'ed into reforming retcon. So lame.... Having said that, this last issue did at least try to make her back sliding a little more organic and tied into the story. I could buy at this point in her story after going through hell for the last couple months she'd be disgusted enough with life to go, "#$@!@^* it, I'm stealing something shiny."

[sabongero]

Ah the magical powers of retcon...in effect once more.

[Spiffy]

I'm less against it than lets say... making Batgirl bad. Because at least Catwoman started that way. But for this to work, she's got to be a bit conflicted. And really, the "mischevious thief" version of Catwoman rather than the "evil mastermind" version. She doesn't kill, heck, she doesn't even hurt anyone. She steals for her own amusement. MAYBE she still does the Robin Hood bit as well--I think that can be kept in--but than can be balanced by her being a thrill junkie, and not terribly worried about breaking laws.

Cat vs. Bat has to be Cat & Mouse (oddly enough with Batman being the Cat, since he's the chaser). Its got to be fun, not dark and tragic. Although its also got to be Bruce Wayne as Batman, so if anyone else is in that cape for a while, making Selina a criminal again is kind of wasted.

[Ilash]

Oh really? Man, I'm pretty disappointed to hear this. I haven't read Catwoman since the height of Brubaker's run but I loved the more morally nuanced take that she had and it would be a waste to throw that away and go back to her simply being a villain. And I can't believe that the Zattanna mind wipe thing was actually retconned into Catwoman's mostly-reformation. What a lazy storytelling device.

[Schornforce]

I haven't read the issue yet (saving it to read on my vacation trip), but solely from what's being said, I'm disappointed. I prefer Catwoman as protector of the East side, while still being quite the thief, and her own woman with her own unique set of moral rules.

I think part of the problem is her supporting cast has winnowed away-- Holly, Karon, Helena, Sam.

Slam and Batman are all she currently has. I didn't mind the mindwipe thing too much and it was retconned later on, Zatanna saying she didn't do a mind wipe/rearrangement-- she just gave Selina a nudge in the 'right' direction. Now, of course, there's no guarantee Z told the truth, but hey.

I like Catwoman as a complex anti-heroine/world renowned thief. Taking her back to square one and eliminating the anti-heroine portion of her character seems like a major step backwards which makes me wonder 'what's the point of caring about a character and their adventures if they're just brought back to square one for an unsatisfying and IMO, messed up reason.

I do have to say, I find it odd that Batman felt it was 'okay' that Selina killed Black Mask. Especially since anytime anyone wants to off the Joker, Batman goes through hell and high water to stop them.

Plus, I really hated what Selina did to poor J'onn. Otherwise, I'd greatly enjoyed the title while it lasted. Hopefully, it'll make a comeback someday.

[Chad]

I can't comment directly about Catwoman simply because I don't follow the title, but in my experience, when a major change takes place close to the end of a title or even the end of a particular writer's tenure on a title, that change is often ignored or immediately vetoed by the next team:

Scott Beatty spent most of his time on Gotham Knights carefully directing Bane's character towards something more than a simple strong-man. The second he left the title however, Bane was back to being one-dimensional.

Jeph Loeb used his time on Batman to have the Riddler discover Batman's identity and Two-Face revert back to Harvey Dent. Both changes were reversed the second the next writer took over the characters. (of course, his Catwoman learns Batman's ID hasn't been done away with as far as I know).

Didn't the Joker and/or Batman and Jason Todd blow up in Batman 650 or thereabouts? It looked that way, and yet because another writer took over with the very next issue, that cliffhanger was forgotten and never mentioned again. Wasn't there a similiar situation in the last issue of Gotham Knights? I think the Joker and Hush were about to have a fight to the death when the issue ends, and yet when they next appeared, none of this was mentioned.

Grant Morrison introduced a new Joker in Batman 662; forgotten by everyone else when he appeared next in Tec and whatever DC's last weekly series was.

I keep hearing about whether or not the 'Scarebeast' will turn up when Scarecrow next appears. I have no idea what 'Scarebeast' is other than something the Scarecrow was able to turn into for an issue or two. The reason I don't know what a Scarebeast is? No one decided to go this route after the orginator of the idea left. For that matter, didn't Riddler get a new look in LOTDK? What happened to that?

I suspect that if Paul Dini needs a Bat-ally to use in Tec six months from now and Selina Kyle pops into his head then that's who he'll use regardless of the new direction being introduced in a title that only has one or two issues left.

[AlistairCrane]

If I understand the last pages of the most recent Catwoman comic, Selina's decided (well, her writers decided) to return to her criminal past and take up being a badguygirl again. &, if I understand the recent Previews, this happens two issues before the series ends.

Too bad. The first forty issues of this series are wonderful, exciting, thoughtful and make sense, when so little of this character's previous incarnations have. So these, for me, comprise 'my' Catwoman canon. Sorry to see (what I view as) lack of talent and idea returning Selina to lesser lights.

Anyone feel similarly, or differently?

Matt

I feel the same way. I'm absolutely disgusted that they're going to go this route and make Selina an enemy of Batman again.

[humpa]

I agree with you guys, it feels wasted. All that effort to be good only to be retcon magic'd. It sort of feels like BND all over again. I wish they would've just kept catwoman as a supporting character for the batman family books. Maybe had her partner up with batgirl, robin, nightwing and of course batman from time to time.

[AlistairCrane]

I suspect that if Paul Dini needs a Bat-ally to use in Tec six months from now and Selina Kyle pops into his head then that's who he'll use regardless of the new direction being introduced in a title that only has one or two issues left.

That's true, and that may already be the case if the past 2 issues of DC take place after the final issue of Catwoman.

[matt levin]

The good thing about all of this being comics is, just as I've always kept the Wein/Wrightson and Moore/Bissette/etc. "Swampthing" issues, and tossed/sold/gave away all the issues between, I'll keep the Brubaker "Catwoman" and let much of the rest go free; and in the next 20 years, when I re-read "Catwoman", what a great good time it'll be.

Matt

[Dard]

I'm not yet convince that she will go totally go "back to bad".
Okay, given DC's track record it sounds likely that they want to do that.
But from a story perspective, it looks to me that Selina is going through a phase of denial and depression, intent to show everybody that she is not as good as they assumed she is.
Only time will tell if she's really back to square one. Usually I would say that we will know when she meets her supporting cast again face-to-face.

But then, just look a Batgirl: It doesn't look like she will meet her supporting cast anytime soon, so why should Catwoman, now that both are without their own series?

Somehow I wonder if DC editorial believes their characters are easier to be efficiently written as villains.
They aren't!

[Pixie_Solanas]

What, did you guys think she was going all "heroic"?

[Schornforce]

What, did you guys think she was going all "heroic"?

Personally? No. I thought she'd merely continue to do what she thought was right, but still do what she wants in regards to thrills and theft.

Selina should toe the line continuously as she could never really fit in with either the hero set or the villains... not in any lasting fashion, that is.

She defines her own morals and rules and does her best to abide by them. But reverting back to the way she was, disregarding the changes she's gone through over the past few years is disappointing (to me, anyways).

[Dard]

What, did you guys think she was going all "heroic"?Not "all heroic". That would be out-of-character and boring.
"Somewhat heroic". That was the premise of the current Catwoman series and worked quite well IMO.

[AlistairCrane]

She defines her own morals and rules and does her best to abide by them. But reverting back to the way she was, disregarding the changes she's gone through over the past few years is disappointing (to me, anyways).

And me as well.

[Captain Jim]

I haven't read the issue yet

Same here.

I didn't mind the mindwipe thing too much and it was retconned later on, Zatanna saying she didn't do a mind wipe/rearrangement-- she just gave Selina a nudge in the 'right' direction.

Correct. As far as I'm concerned, the mindwipe never happened.

I like Catwoman as a complex anti-heroine/world renowned thief. Taking her back to square one and eliminating the anti-heroine portion of her character seems like a major step backwards

Agreed.

I do have to say, I find it odd that Batman felt it was 'okay' that Selina killed Black Mask. Especially since anytime anyone wants to off the Joker, Batman goes through hell and high water to stop them.

True, but in this instance it was all said and done before Batman could do anything about it. And given what Black Mask had previously done to Selina's sister, I didn't find her dispatching him too far fetched.

Plus, I really hated what Selina did to poor J'onn.

But I thought that was realistic under the circumstances as well. I really believe she thought J'onn could handle himself. In any case, I'm sorry Batman's reaction to this was never addressed. (Unless he doesn't know it yet.)

Otherwise I really enjoyed this title while it lasted.

Me too, and that includes the Pfeifer issues which were also very good, though largely ignored by fandom

Hopefully, it'll make a comeback someday.

I don't doubt it for a second.

[Ronald Bryan]

Didn't the Joker and/or Batman and Jason Todd blow up in Batman 650 or thereabouts? It looked that way, and yet because another writer took over with the very next issue, that cliffhanger was forgotten and never mentioned again. Wasn't there a similiar situation in the last issue of Gotham Knights? I think the Joker and Hush were about to have a fight to the death when the issue ends, and yet when they next appeared, none of this was mentioned.

That was all of that One Year Later nonsense. They were told to give shocking endings to the books, since the next issue would take place a year later. So, you end the book on a shocking note that will make the reader question what will be the status quo in the One Year Later story. They were really never meant to be picked up on again.

[WorstThingUS]

But I thought that was realistic under the circumstances as well. I really believe she thought J'onn could handle himself. In any case, I'm sorry Batman's reaction to this was never addressed. (Unless he doesn't know it yet.)



And this should be what changes the status quo. There shouldn't be an arbitrary "Oh, I'm gonna be bad now," but her pushed into a corner because all of DC's heroes want her head. Selina's a survivor and just as survival dictated selling out J'onn, it would dictate her hooking up with the villains to survive her part in J'onn's murder. And better still, her goal should be to get in and kill Libra to get them off her back.

[Spiffy]

Not "all heroic". That would be out-of-character and boring.
"Somewhat heroic". That was the premise of the current Catwoman series and worked quite well IMO.
To me, what worked well for her was if she had come to consider herself a hero, but on HER terms. No bogus superhero code. No "team" garbage, and only hesitant cooperation with other heroes, if at all. As well as NO cooperation with the authorities, of course. If she sees a wrong, she rights it on her own terms. If something needs to be stolen, then given to someone else to make something right, she steals it. If someone needs to be put in the hospital (I wouldn't have her kill though), she puts them in the hospital. She simply should have stayed a truer vigilante than the rest of the DCU hero crowd, that's all.

Still, having her back to being a thief is hardly a worst case scenario. As I've said in earlier posts, its better having her be mischievous and a bit amoral than have her be evil, with henchpeople and twisted evil plots.

[thor25]

back to bad= lack of imagination, comics can be sooop repetitive...:rolleyes:

[Chad]

It's not exactly in the same league as what may or not be happening with Catwoman, but Poison Ivy made a recent appearance in Paul Dini's Tec run in which she was portrayed in a much darker light. While not an anti-hero in the way Selina Kyle has been considered to be, it's worth noting that in her last appearance before that Dini issue, Gordon and Batman both remarked that they sympathized with her cause. There was nothing sympathetic in how she's been depicted recently however - this was an Ivy who fed her victims to her plants and made snuff films. One poster on these boards remarked that she was the last female villain Batman had left. Catwoman was more of a good guy; Talia was more of a love interest and not really a villain in her own right; and anyone else (Lady Shiva for instance) hasn't been seen in a long time. This topic has got me thinking that for whatever reason, Batman's female enemies are all taking a turn for the worse - I'm not sure of Talia's current status but hasn't a recent attempt been made to make her more of an enemy to Batman than love interest? I still don't see Catwoman going back to bad after 20 years (actually even counting the pre-Crisis stories it should be closer to 30) without DC getting strongly behind what is a pretty major change for the character. Still, something's been going on with Batman's female adversaries (even some of his female allies if you include Leslie Thompkins and Batgirl come to think of it) recently.