RIP Speculative theory

[CitizenX]

I didn't see an active thread on this topic, so starting a new one seems appropriate. Keep in mind all that follows is all my own, reasonable speculation.

What is not going to happen:
Bruce Wayne dies at the end of RIP.
Bruce Wayne is permanently retired as Batman.

As much as Morrison loves to stroke hyperbole, there is just no way DC will be retiring the character and replacing him permanently. Chalk it up to economics. Morrison could tell history's greatest comic book story and it still wouldn't justify ending the story of Bruce Wayne. Its just not going to happen. Could Bruce "die" or "retire" for a brief time? Certainly. But such a condition couldn't persist. Morrison knows this, so I give him more credit. Why make a change that the next writer will just casually undo? It is sad but true that in comics, death is easily unwritten.

Instead, I think that Morrison is looking to change Batman in such a fundamental way that stories will deal with it for decades to come. Prior to his dubious resurrection, the death of Jason Todd was such a change. More than just the death of a main character, what's most important is that that was the day that Batman failed. That failure haunted the character ever since and created new tension for the character.

My bet? Batman is going to do something worse than failing. Batman is going to kill. I don't know who or how or motive. Look at how killing the Phantom Zone villains had a profound impact on Superman for years to come. The act creates new stories, new tension. Think of how killing would shake up the world of Batman. Could such a radical act be erased by a later writer? Sure. Mind Control, Drugs, Stress, Clones, the list goes on and on. But better still would be follow up writers respecting and using that act.

Do I think Batman will become a Punisher style anti-hero? No. I think he will be disgusted and demoralized by the act. Hence the possibility of a temporary retirement. But Bruce would return. He would work with that guilt. In the end, such an ending to RIP would have greater, more lasting impact then a glorious death that would be undone a half year later with the wave of a Lazarus Pit.

[ZT4]

I definatly see Bruce settling with Talia by the end of the story (it fits the beggining and the middle of her arcs in the title currently) and indeed, as you say, he WILL finally kill somebody to push him in that "damned if I do" direction. It'll be a controlled retirement...the whole "Buffy leaves town" scenario all over again stretched likely to right around Nolan's third movie (when it's announced)

[JohnRD]

No matter what they do to Bruce it will be retconned or fixed some how by someone else.

[ZT4]

What is there exactly to "fix"? There's nothing to "fix", because nothing is going to be broken. Bruce's present phasing out is methodical and being handled in a controlled way so as to bring him back at a different point in Morrison's Batman story, which is divided into mutliple arcs, of which R.I.P is the third chapter.

DC ARE bringing back Bruce, it's not a matter of "When Morrison leaves", or "When someone else takes over", Morrison is taking him out, and it will be likely Morrison who deposits him back in. 'Till then, just enjoy the story he's telling.

[mofo]

good idea sir.....batman finally killing someone....just like in TDK....

[carabas]

good idea sir.....batman finally killing someone....just like in TDK....Oh, thank yoou so very much for sliding in that spoiler in a completely unrelated thread...

[ZT4]

At least "The Nail" shows Batman would make murder look AWESOME

[joe the baker]

good idea sir.....batman finally killing someone....just like in TDK....

Erm....Who did he kill?

[diceshooter]

Oh, thank yoou so very much for sliding in that spoiler in a completely unrelated thread...

actually it is not a spoiler because batman did not kill anyone....

besides... are you telling me that you have not seen the dark knight yet? What kind of fan are you? :wink:

[ZT4]

Erm....Who did he kill?

A child's laughter:tongue:

[stillanerd]

You know, there's always this possibility:

That not only doesn't end up killing just anyone--he ends up killing the Joker in response to the Joker killing Jezebel Jet, a.k.a the head of Black Glove. This, coupled with the fact that the new woman in his life was part of Black Glove and trying to destroy him is what prompt Bruce that he can no longer be Batman anymore since he's now crossed the line, giving way for the new Batman, probably Dick Grayson, to take up the mantle after Bruce leaves to do much needed soul-searching within the pages of Detective Comics. After all, Batman and the Joker are linked and having one of that link die could be used as the catalyst for someone besides Bruce to be Batman. Naturally, if something like that does happen, then I doubt it will be permanent, especially since you could easily have the Joker "reborn" via a Lazarus Pit, which has happened before BTW in Legend of the Dark Knight.

[chipsnopotatoes]

You know, there's always this possibility:

That not only doesn't end up killing just anyone--he ends up killing the Joker in response to the Joker killing Jezebel Jet, a.k.a the head of Black Glove.

After listening to the podcast interview with Morrison, I doubt that Batman will kill anyone. When a fan suggested that Batman start carrying guns, Morrison was so vehemently against the idea. Dont remember the quote exactly, but he said something like having Batman carry guns would be turning him into a soldier and we don't need another soldier...or something to that effect.

[Tanjint]

Yeah, Batman won't use guns, but he may kill.


anyway, Morrison's Bat-run is the equivalent of Brubaker's Cap-run.

Give the character their ultimate adventure send off. Kill them off. Replace them with a fitting successor and bring them back triumphantly.

Captain America will be Steve Rogers again by Captain America #50.

Batman will be Bruce Wayne again by Batman #700.


Most likely in those exact issue numbers^^


-T

[Tanjint]

but also, 'kill them off' could mean a lot of things.


Bats could retire, settle down, go insane/nervous breakdown, or actually get killed. Travel etc. there's a lot of things that could happen. or as Johns repeatedly said at SDCC: "Black lanterns"

-T

[carabas]

are you telling me that you have not seen the dark knight yet? What kind of fan are you? :wink:The kind that like to enjoy a movie in peace, and therefore likes to wait until the worst of the crowd has died down a bit.:cool:

[Red_Knight]

You know, there's always this possibility:

That not only doesn't end up killing just anyone--he ends up killing the Joker in response to the Joker killing Jezebel Jet [...]

I hope not. I like the idea of Batman finally breaking down and killing someone. Taking into account the character's strong conviction about "crossing the line", it would certainly open up some interesting new story possibilities.

I don't want Batman to kill in order to avenge Jezebel Jet, though. I think it's a very real possibility, but it would seem almost anti-climactic to me. Batman has lost many close friends and allies over the years, but he never snapped. IMO, if he didn't kill to avenge Jason Todd -- you know, Robin --, then he shouldn't kill to avenge some girlfriend, either.

Then again, Bruce's unstable state of mind could make such an event feasible, I guess. On the other hand, it would also make it far too easy to excuse it, too.

[diceshooter]

The kind that like to enjoy a movie in peace, and therefore likes to wait until the worst of the crowd has died down a bit.:cool:

I have never had a problem watching a movie in peace.

[stillanerd]

After listening to the podcast interview with Morrison, I doubt that Batman will kill anyone. When a fan suggested that Batman start carrying guns, Morrison was so vehemently against the idea. Dont remember the quote exactly, but he said something like having Batman carry guns would be turning him into a soldier and we don't need another soldier...or something to that effect.

Batman wouldn't need a gun to actually kill somebody; he has been trained in the usage of lethal hand to hand combat so would know which techniques could kill a person. He just never uses them because he doesn't want to sink to the level of the murderers he's trying to catch. And I agree, Batman carrying guns (although he once did back during Bob Kane's days) would NOT be a good idea.

I hope not. I like the idea of Batman finally breaking down and killing someone. Taking into account the character's strong conviction about "crossing the line", it would certainly open up some interesting new story possibilities.

I don't want Batman to kill in order to avenge Jezebel Jet, though. I think it's a very real possibility, but it would seem almost anti-climactic to me. Batman has lost many close friends and allies over the years, but he never snapped. IMO, if he didn't kill to avenge Jason Todd -- you know, Robin --, then he shouldn't kill to avenge some girlfriend, either.

Then again, Bruce's unstable state of mind could make such an event feasible, I guess. On the other hand, it would also make it far too easy to excuse it, too.

I agree, mainly because the character of Jezebel Jet is just so thin as a character, it's really hard to think that Batman would just up and fall so much in love with her, part of why I think she is connected, or perhaps is, the head of Black Glove because Bruce falling so hard for her is actually part of the Zur-en-Rah conditioning. And I certainly don't feel the Joker should be killed off, although he certainly has it coming, because he's the best villain Batman's got. Like I said, I just wouldn't be surprised if both Jezebel's betrayal and death, along with Bruce killing the Joker, are what cause him to "retire" as Batman under Morrison's story.

[Tanjint]

I have never had a problem watching a movie in peace.

nah, i see what dude's saying. i've seen TDK twice but the huge crowd laughing at times takes away some of the deeper resonance some moments could have had. i can't wait to see certain scenes crowd-less.

-T

[daredevil1990]

I started reading the urrent batman seires at issue 672 and have only recently bought the Batman and Son trade and the Club of Heroes arc, so if I get anything wrong it's because I haven't read post 672 again yet, haha.

Way I see it, Batman killing someone would affect the character more that replaceing him would, after all Bruce Wayne is Batman and vice versa. Him killing someone comes with two pretty big themes, who and how, maybes why but not so much as the other two. If he kills a hero 'cause of his breakdown, that'll be something that'll have to stay with the character and I get the feeling that if he killed a big villain, it'd be even worse because he's let them live this long, why now? (wel kinda jsut answered that question with mentioning the breakdown, haha). Then 'how', I mean if he uses a gun, that'll be something that, again, will stay with the character and most likely change him in a fundamental way.

Grant Morisson has refered to the run as a novel, well, I'm pretty sure he has, so he's making the most of each issue, not let any details go to waste. There's the issue when it's about Joe Chill and the isolation experiment (673? I'm not 100%), the issue is about his parents being gunned down and the isolation experiment which I'm assuming is causing the breakdown, if not just the whole Zur-en-arr (sp?) concept. I believe Morisson wants the readers to be able to figure it out with clues and hitns that he leaves, then again, R.I.P isn't finished yet, it still could go a huge amount of ways, we'll just have to wait until the final issue. I hated saying that by the way, haha.

[JohnRD]

What is there exactly to "fix"? There's nothing to "fix", because nothing is going to be broken. Bruce's present phasing out is methodical and being handled in a controlled way so as to bring him back at a different point in Morrison's Batman story, which is divided into mutliple arcs, of which R.I.P is the third chapter.

DC ARE bringing back Bruce, it's not a matter of "When Morrison leaves", or "When someone else takes over", Morrison is taking him out, and it will be likely Morrison who deposits him back in. 'Till then, just enjoy the story he's telling.


There is plenty to fix. Everyone knows that there is no way Bruce isn't going to end the story as Batman. Morrision is vastly overrated, but I guess it is neither here nor there.

[ZT4]

There is plenty to fix. Everyone knows that there is no way Bruce isn't going to end the story as Batman. Morrision is vastly overrated, but I guess it is neither here nor there.

Thanks for not reading what I posted at all pal.

Only in an "internet clubs love to berate genius" kind of way that Morrison is "overrated"

[JohnRD]

Thanks for not reading what I posted at all pal.

Only in an "internet clubs love to berate genius" kind of way that Morrison is "overrated"

What exactly did I miss? Morrison has written good stuff, but he's written crap too. I'm not part of any internet Morrision bashing club. I enjoyed the first issue of Final Crisis a lot, he is just not infallible.

I like the Sandman a lot, I like American Gods a lot, but Gaiman has written crap too. I'm done with it. You like Morrison, he's fantastic, he's a genius. I get it. Whatever, I think he's not as good as everyone hypes him up to be. You are welcome to have a different opinion than mine. The End.

[carabas]

What exactly did I miss? Morrison has written good stuff, but he's written crap too.It's not because you're a genius that you'e infallible. Einstein and Hawking had their off days too, with ideas that, although very interesting, ultimately went nowhere.

I'm fairly certain that Morrison can't be accused of writing something that is unambitious and pedestrian. Except maybe the 90s WIDCats/JLA crossover...

[JohnRD]

It's not because you're a genis that you'e infallible. Einstein and Hawking had their off days too, with ideas that, although very interesting, ultimately went nowhere.

I'm fairly certain that Morrison can't be accused of writing something that is unambitious and pedestrian. Except maybe the 90s WIDCats/JLA crossover...

Like I said, I have enjoyed some of his stuff, and I agree with everything you've said. Everyone had a few off days in the 90s. Morrison is far from being the worst Bat-writer, he just isn't my favorite. There is still a lot left to happen. Maybe I'll end up being wrong.

[gwor]

Morrison is far from being the worst Bat-writer

As a matter of fact, he's on a very short list of decent Bat writers. His worst issue of the current run far surpasses the Winnick run, the Loeb fiasco, and basically any issue of Batman since around, oh, issue 400, I'd say.

[BoSoxJay]

I am starting to wonder if, perhaps, Batman is maybe acting crazy on purpose. In this weeks "Robin" he went to Spoiler before he was rendered insane by the "zurr-en-arr" trigger and before he was drugged by Hurt. He told Stephanie that he was going away and that Robin would have to get along without him. To me, it even inferred that Batman expected Nightwing to be taken out too. I dunno exactly what this means though. Either he has a master plan to take the Black Glove out that includes acting like a whacko or he really is the mastermind behind it all like many have speculated.

[Sanlear]

Morrison is far from being the worst Bat-writer

As a matter of fact, he's on a very short list of decent Bat writers. His worst issue of the current run far surpasses the Winnick run, the Loeb fiasco, and basically any issue of Batman since around, oh, issue 400, I'd say. Loeb sure gets a reaction from comic fans. Usually not a great reaction, but most people seem to love or hate him. Very little middle ground.

[Xybernauts]

My bet? Batman is going to do something worse than failing. Batman is going to kill.


I really like your theory about Batman going to kill. Your logic makes sense too. We don't want another KnightFall/Knightquest.

You know, there's always this possibility:

That not only doesn't end up killing just anyone--he ends up killing the Joker in response to the Joker killing Jezebel Jet, a.k.a the head of Black Glove.


Who knows, maybe Batman has already killed. Maybe Honor Jackson was the victim. I know he supposedly died of a drug over dose, but what if he died at the hands of Batman in that time between when he was assaulted in the batcave and abandoned in the alley. The possible hallucination is a latent memory of this figure. It's even possible that the journey Wayne took across town with Honor was Wayne's unconscious way of beginning Honor's murder investigation. He has begun to investigate the death of Honor without realizing it. And ultimately the culprit will turn out to be the drugged Batman - Zur-En-Arrh?!

I don't think killing the Joker's such a good idea cause it'd be like what happens to Batman. Similar to what what you said, they'd eventually resurrect The Joker and it would defeat the point of killing him. An obscure character would have a better chance of remaining dead permanently.

I also believe this storyline will show how even when broken, Batman still excels. Batman is so ingrained into Wayne's personality that investigation and crime-fighting have become a reflex.

I really want to make the Biblical connection between Zur En Arrh and Jezzebel Jet and possibly the Black Glove movie.

For those of you who don't know the story of Jezebel from the bible...

In the Tanakh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh) (the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Old Testament), Jezebel is a queen of ancient Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel). Her story is told in 1st and 2nd Kings (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Books_of_Kings). She is introduced as a Phoenician (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia) princess, the daughter of King Ithobaal I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithobaal_I) of Sidon, who marries King Ahab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahab). She turns Ahab away from the God of the Israelites and of the Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism) (being the inhabitants of Judah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judah) in this context) and toward the worship of Phoenician god, Baal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baal). Ahab and Jezebel let temples of Baal operate in Israel, and the pagan religion receives royal patronage. Furthermore, the queen uses her control over Ahab to lead the Hebrews into sin and subject them to tyranny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny).

...Jehu then confronts Jezebel in Jezreel and urges her eunuchs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eunuch) to kill the queen mother by throwing her out a window (defenestration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defenestration)). They comply, tossing her out the window and leaving her in the street to be eaten by dogs. Only Jezebel's skull, feet, and hands remained. Her ignominious end thus fulfills Elijah's prophecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophecy) 1Kings 21:22-26 (http://php.ug.cs.usyd.edu.au/~jnot4610/bibref.php?book=%201Kings&verse=21:22-26&src=kjv).


The relationship between Jezebel Jet and Batman probably reflects the relationship between the Biblical Jezebel and Ahab. Of course Ahab is also the name of the obsessed whale hunting captain in Moby Dick. Most likely Batman represents Ahab. Jezebel clearly was trying to make Wayne question his mission (aka his obsession). She was trying to get him to stray from his principles just before the invasion just like Biblical Jezebel got Ahab to stray from Judaism. It's also possible Ahab represents the Black Glove; assuming the Black Glove isn't Jezebel Jet.

The name Jezebel...


...the Hebrew form of this name means "not exalted". But it is highly unlikely her parents would have given her such a name. ..."Jezebel" is, then, a reinterpretation, intended to mock this Queen and her god, whom she encouraged Israel to worship.


Jet..

I think it's a nod to Jet magazine, "an African-American themed magazine".

The Black Glove...


Overview for The Black Glove (1954) Brief Synopsis:
Brad Bradley (Alex Nicol) is a famous trumpet player who is suspected of murdering a blues singer. Using only two minor clues, he narrows the suspects down to four people, after surviving some fights and having poison placed on the mouthpiece of his trumpet.


The meaning of Zur-En-Arrh...

Zur means... "stone; rock; that besieges" according to Wikipedia.
En is (cuneiform) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_%28cuneiform%29), Sumerian for "lord" or "lord priest"
Arrh - I can't find any references to. The references I do find point out it's a type of expression. For example the stereotypical pirate often is shown saying 'Arrh!. In reference to Batman, it could be a type of yell meant to scare.So my own theory is leaning on the idea that Zur-En-Arrh means something like "the besieging rock lord that scares"? That phrase seems to describe Batman to me. In the original Batman story Zur-En-Arrh was actually a planet where Batman had Superman-like powers. Superman, the man of steel being happens to be as hard as a rock if not harder.

I also came across this interesting theory that believes that Darkseid is the Black Glove . I'm not sure about it myself, but a few people on the board seem to agree with the theory.


Darkseid is the Black Glove
Posted: Aug 6, 2008 11:32 PM http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/images/reply-16x16.gif (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/post!reply.jspa?messageID=2004728611) Reply (http://dcboards.warnerbros.com/web/post!reply.jspa?messageID=2004728611)

What Bruce sees on the screen in the batcave in the previous issue where his descent into madness begins is the anti-life equation. zur en arrh is the anti-life equation. darkseid and desaad have been on earth reincarnated for over 30 years. Desaad is in the reincarnated body of Dr Hurt. Darkseid is the Black Glove. All of the memories of cases set in space (from Batman's past) are the results of torture at the hands of Dr. hurt (desaad).

RIP ends with Batman recovered from madness (slightly) yet still questioning his experience and the notion of who the black glove really is (only Bruce knows/suspects its darkseid). Morrison has said that RIP happens prior to Final Crisis. In Final Crisis Darkseid and Desaad finally win over Batman and have him at their mercy in the new torture chamber in bludhaven. Morrison's 2 part "last Batman story" is the story of his breaking out of the torture chamber and a final crisis tie in. By the end of the story batman will retire due to the psychological stress that rip and final crisis have caused him.

Dick and Tim take turns being Batman in tandem and also swap off who is going to be Robin. Robin becomes "Batman and Robin" and becomes the book where Dick and Tim carry on the batman legacy. Nightwing is cancelled and replaced by Red Robin featuring Jason Todd as the star. Batman and Robin and Red Robin will remain within the Earth Prime universe. Batman and Detective will be set on a new earth that spins out of final crisis where the heroes never went through the final crisis and bruce wayne is still batman. Final Crisis makes it so that there is absolutely no chance for crossovers between characters in alternate universes and thus the Dick/Tim Batman tandem will never know that another reality where Bruce is still batman actually exists and vice versa. Hence Final Crisis is the end of the DC universe as we know it and RIP is the end of batman as Morrison has said. The new DC universe where Batman and Tec are set will be a new mold of the classic continuity of the characters and new modern sensibilities to storytelling. A lot like earth prime but different enough to include portions of the nolan bat-movies in the character's history.

[kalorama]

I don't much follow Batman and haven't for a long while, but in light of trends among DC's big "event" storylines over the past several years and their handling of various resurrections of major characters, this R.I.P. thing has me thinking.

I am of the belief that Batman/Bruce Wayne will physically die at the end of the storyline and that his inevitable resurrection will come by means of some process (possibly a Lazarus pit) by which he returns in a physical body much younger and more vital than the one he left in. Moreover, I believe that this may be one of the primary motivating factors behind the whole R.I.P. story in the first place.

Why? Because as things currently stand, Batman is the only one of the physically human members of the old-school core JLA-ers who hasn't undergone some kind of de-aging physical resurrection. Green Arrow, Green Lantern, Atom, Hawkman, and Black Canary have all sipped from some version of the fountain of youth over the past few years (and my guess is that, when all is said and done, it'll be presented that Barry Allen's timestream travels have somehow retarded his aging so that he'll be the same physical age now as when he died years ago). Batman is the only one left still running around in his original, battle-scarred body.

Given that three of his formerly teen sidekicks have grown into adulthood, it's getting much harder to maintain the already tenuous illusion that Batman is still in his 30s. Either they have to own up to the fact that he's in his mid-40s (which, even in a comic book universe, would make it damned unlikely that he'd be able to physically do the things he does, especially with all that hard mileage) , or else they have to do something to peel off the years. Thus his death in R.I.P., followed be a refreshing return from the grave, complete with body overhaul.

[InfiniteCombo]

Bruce getting a new "shell" so to speak sounds pretty believable to me... This will also allow DC to market the DEATH of Bruce, which will make tons of money for them just to have him return in the best shape of his career.

[Adam C]

What Bruce sees on the screen in the batcave in the previous issue where his descent into madness begins is the anti-life equation. zur en arrh is the anti-life equation. darkseid and desaad have been on earth reincarnated for over 30 years. Desaad is in the reincarnated body of Dr Hurt. Darkseid is the Black Glove. All of the memories of cases set in space (from Batman's past) are the results of torture at the hands of Dr. hurt (desaad).]

I doubt this will turn out to be true for the storyline, but another poster (Paul McEnery) once suggested that the adventure with the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh was that with a disguised New God and the Bat-Radia a disguised Mother Box.

[Xybernauts]

OK, I have a new theory concerning a possible alias for Jezebel Jet.

OK, we know that Jezebel is another word for harlot or whore right.

The Selina Kyle was originally a prostitute; technically a jezebel.

And In a previous posts I mentioned how the last name 'Jet' maybe a nod to Jet magazine which is an magazine for African Americans .

What if Jezebel Jet is the new black Catwoman!

When most people think of the black Catwoman they think of Halley Berry, but technically Halley Berry's Catwoman was probably loosely based on the 60's Catwoman from the 60's Batman TV show. In the 60's Batman TV show there were two Catwomen. First a black actress then a white one who replaced her. Morrison's run has nodded the 60's Batman several times.

I think either the new Catwoman is a reboot of the old Catwoman or she is a new rival for the current Catwoman. I'm not sure if the Kyle Catwoman has been revealed in the current universe.

Jet has a lot in common with the Batman: TAS Catwoman as well. Jet has had a serious relationship with Bruce Wayne. She is a wealthy philanthropist who uses her wealth for a good cause. And like the Catwoman in the Halley Berry Catwoman movie she is associated with the modeling industry. I think it makes a lot of sense. I think it would be a lot better then her turning out to be the Black Glove.

I think the Black Glove is dead.

I believe everyone liked the Halley Berry Catwoman in terms of appearance. The problem with her character was it wasn't based in continuity, she had superpowers, and she existed in a Gotham where there was no mention of the Caped Crusader. I'd be thrilled if she did become a new Catwoman. Another possibility is that she didn't orchestrate events, but instead she will severely beaten up by the Club of Villains like previous versions of Catwoman, and this will turn her into the next Catwoman.

[kalorama]

I believe everyone liked the Halley Berry Catwoman in terms of appearance.

I suspect that's a belief ungrounded in actual fact.

[BoSoxJay]

believe everyone liked the Halley Berry Catwoman in terms of appearance.

If you meaned liked the way her buttocks looked in the costume then I agree. If you mean she looked, acted or behaved in any way that resembled the character as depcited in comics then you, my friend, have not only seen "The Pineapple Express" but smoked it as well.

[Xybernauts]

If you meaned liked the way her buttocks looked in the costume then I agree. If you mean she looked, acted or behaved in any way that resembled the character as depcited in comics then you, my friend, have not only seen "The Pineapple Express" but smoked it as well.
I suspect that's a belief ungrounded in actual fact.

I did say believe didn't I. Maybe 'everyone' is a little extreme perhaps I should have said 'alot of people'.

If you meaned liked the way her buttocks looked in the costume then I agree. If you mean she looked, acted or behaved in any way that resembled the character as depcited in comics then you, my friend, have not only seen "The Pineapple Express" but smoked it as well.

Actually, I meant both. I'm not talking about the costume itself though, but the appearance of the character overall. At first glance barring the performance you thought she looked good right? You'd have to be blind or gay not to.

But anyway, that's besides the point. We're straying off topic. I mean out of everything I said the only thing you found interesting was my comment about Hally Berry's? That's the only thing you found interesting? I mean Jezebel Jet is nothing like Halley Berry's outside of the fact that she's black and good looking and female; so don't worry. I mean give me some feedback, do you think the theory has merit?

[kalorama]

Maybe 'everyone' is a little extreme perhaps I should have said 'alot of people'.

Sorry, but that still doesn't hit the mark. The Catwoman film was pretty much universally reviled in almost much every respect.

[Xybernauts]

Sorry, but that still doesn't hit the mark. The Catwoman film was pretty much universally reviled in pretty much every respect.

Honestly, I didn't like the movie either. I'm not trying to get into e Catwoman movie debate. If it's not about RIP then I'm not interested. I was talking about her appearance, unless your trying to say people have something against the idea of there being a black Catwoman? I'm hoping that's not the case.


What if Jezebel Jet is the new black Catwoman!

When most people think of the black Catwoman they think of Halley Berry, but technically Halley Berry's Catwoman was probably loosely based on the 60's Catwoman from the 60's Batman TV show. In the 60's Batman TV show there were two Catwomen. First a black actress then a white one who replaced her. Morrison's run has nodded the 60's Batman several times.



1966 Batman series

Main article: Batman (TV series) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(TV_series))
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/0/00/Jnewmarcat.jpg/180px-Jnewmarcat.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jnewmarcat.jpg) [/URL]
Julie Newmar as Catwoman in the Batman television series.



Catwoman was at various times portrayed by [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Newmar"]Julie Newmar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jnewmarcat.jpg) and Eartha Kitt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eartha_Kitt) in the live-action Batman television series of the 1960s, her first other-media portrayal. Her role as a supervillainess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supervillainess) was quite obvious in this series, as she committed numerous self-gratifying crimes, including the attempted murders of Batman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman), Robin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin), and Batgirl (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batgirl). Lee Meriwether (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Meriwether) was cast in the 1966 Batman motion picture based on the television series, after discovering Newmar was unavailable[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catwoman#cite_note-6). An uncredited fourth actress played Catwoman as part of a villain team-up in "The Entrancing Dr. Cassandra," the penultimate episode of the series.

The black Catwoman was Eartha Kitt, but technically there were 4 Catwoman.


Julie Newmar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Newmar)
Eartha Kitt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eartha_Kitt)
Lee Meriwether (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lee_Meriwether)
An uncredited fourth actressBelow is a pic of Eartha Kitt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eartha_Kitt), the black Catwoman.


http://www.metroactive.com/papers/sfmetro/07.27.98/gifs/earthakitt4-9828.jpg

In the late 1960s, television series Batman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman_(TV_series)), she played Catwoman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catwoman) in succession to Julie Newmar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Newmar).

I believe the continuity of the Batman series never explained why she changed appearance. I always thought it would be an interesting idea if there was more than one Catwoman in Gotham. All of them rivals for the coveted name of Catwoman.

[kalorama]

Honestly, I didn't like the movie either. I'm not trying to get into e Catwoman movie debate. If it's not about RIP then I'm not interested. I was talking about her appearance, unless your trying to say people have something against the idea of there being a black Catwoman? I'm hoping that's not the case.

You said "appearance" not "race." The two are not synonymous. Most people hated the character's appearance. (And, for the record, a lot of people weren't happy with the fact that she was Black, either.)

I At first glance barring the performance you thought she looked good right? You'd have to be blind or gay not to.

Actually, you wouldn't have to be either. You'd just have to not find Halle Berry especially attractive. (And a lot of gay men love Halle Berry, so there goes that theory.)

[Xybernauts]

Actually, I think they pretty much are synonymous. Not in all cases, but in most. I'm not going to be baited into answering your other comments. I just want to know...

1. Would you have a problem with a black Catwoman in the comics.
2. Do you agree that the theory has merit?

I want to know your opinion, not speculate on the opinions of other people.

[carabas]

1. Would you have a problem with a black Catwoman in the comics.I'd have problems with yet another new Catwoman, regardles of her race. DC can't even handle one Catwoman correctly, nevermind two or three.

[daredevil1990]

Sorry tostep into this big catwoman debate, haha.

Dunno if it's been brought up in this thread, I might've missed it if someone has mentioned it. I've reread the issues 672-675 and considering these were the first issues of batman I read, having only recently gone back and read Batman and Son and the Club of Heroes, I didn't really pick up much from 672-675, but reading them again...

The third ghsot of batman (Lane I think he's called?), keeps bringing up the hell and devil theme, 'i've come from hell with a secret to tell' etc. He says that Doctor Hurt is the devil himself and that Hurt comes to erth to ruin lives, or something along them lines. Then there's all that talk of Commisioner Vayne (dunno who this character is, if he's been a character before this storyline?), what roles has he played here other than creating the three ghosts of batman, does his role in creating them tie him to Hurt?

THere's the fact at the end of this issue, the Third Batman get's away, will he come back before the end of R.I.P? And also the fact that Bat-Mite keeps appearing to bruce, a lot of things I've read about this issue, people believe that Bat-Mite has always been just a part of Bruce's imaginiation? (again a character I don't know much about so any speculation I could make would probably be useless, haha).

[kalorama]

Actually, I think they pretty much are synonymous. Not in all cases, but in most.

Uh ... wrong. Appearance can encompass race, obviously. But it also encompasses a myriad of other dimensions and characteristics. (Think all dogs are animals but not all animals are dogs.)

I want to know your opinion, not speculate on the opinions of other people.

Really? That's pretty funny and quite a sudden turnaround, given that this whole thing started with you speculating (incorrectly) on other people's opinions regarding the Catwoman movie. So only you are allowed to speculate on other people's opinions, but the privilege is denied to everyone else?

As for my opinion ... I see no reason for a new Catwoman, period: Black, white, yellow or orange. Selina kyle is fine as is.

[kalorama]

Honestly, I didn't like the movie either. I'm not trying to get into e Catwoman movie debate. If it's not about RIP then I'm not interested.

Then you better go back and erase all of your posts, because Halle Berry's Catwoman has nothing whatsoever to do with R.I.P.

[BoSoxJay]

In keeping with the notion that Darseid is the Black Glov no one has mentioned the correlation bewteen Bats love for JEzebel and the fact that their was a character from the 4th World with that name as well:

http://en.dcdatabaseproject.com/Jezebelle_of_New_Genesis_%28New_Earth%29

[gwor]

I'm mulling over whether Alfred is the Black Glove (forgive me if this has been mentioned elsewhere). I realize he gets assaulted, but that could be a red herring.

It'd fit in with his Outsider persona, part of the wonky Silver Age tales that Morrisson is currently tripping on....

[Xybernauts]

OK? How can a guy manage to talk about everything except for what this thread is about? I'm not getting into a flame war with you. I don't think any of your comments are worth commenting on. The only thing I want to erase from my mind are all your posts, present and future. So if you don't see me commenting on any of your statements that aren't related to the topic it's cause they don't exist to me.

And for the record, the Halley Berry Catwoman movie had a theme about modeling and Jezebel Jet is a model. I think it's a small similarity, but it's a similarity nonetheless.

I'd have problems with yet another new Catwoman, regardles of her race. DC can't even handle one Catwoman correctly, nevermind two or three.


Actually, I think the addition of another Catwoman would spice up the original character. It would create a 'catfight' like scenerio between the rival Catwomen. Rivals not only for the title of Catwoman, but also rivals for Batman's affection.

Sorry tostep into this big catwoman debate, haha.

Dunno if it's been brought up in this thread, I might've missed it if someone has mentioned it. I've reread the issues 672-675 and considering these were the first issues of batman I read, having only recently gone back and read Batman and Son and the Club of Heroes, I didn't really pick up much from 672-675, but reading them again...

The third ghsot of batman (Lane I think he's called?), keeps bringing up the hell and devil theme, 'i've come from hell with a secret to tell' etc. He says that Doctor Hurt is the devil himself and that Hurt comes to erth to ruin lives, or something along them lines. Then there's all that talk of Commisioner Vayne (dunno who this character is, if he's been a character before this storyline?), what roles has he played here other than creating the three ghosts of batman, does his role in creating them tie him to Hurt?

THere's the fact at the end of this issue, the Third Batman get's away, will he come back before the end of R.I.P? And also the fact that Bat-Mite keeps appearing to bruce, a lot of things I've read about this issue, people believe that Bat-Mite has always been just a part of Bruce's imaginiation? (again a character I don't know much about so any speculation I could make would probably be useless, haha).

I didn't notice that. It would be interesting because it would explain how the three Batman fit into the story. I actually found them annoying, but the idea that they were guinea pigs setting the stage for the main attraction help to make their appearance more palletable.

In keeping with the notion that Darseid is the Black Glov no one has mentioned the correlation bewteen Bats love for JEzebel and the fact that their was a character from the 4th World with that name as well:

http://en.dcdatabaseproject.com/Jezebelle_of_New_Genesis_%28New_Earth%29

The only reason I'm not on-board with the superpowered theory of what's happening is cause I'm used seeing Gotham from a more real world perspective. My mind if filtering out the idea of anything supernatural, superpowered or super-anything. But putting that aside that's a pretty good observation that makes a lot of sense. Jezebel Jet and Jezebelle of the Fiery Eyes aka Jezebelle of New Genesis even look similar...

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/thumb/0/04/Jezebel_Jet.jpg/200px-Jezebel_Jet.jpg

http://images4.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/thumb/8/87/Jezebelle_01.jpg/200px-Jezebelle_01.jpg





OK, we know that Jezebel is another word for harlot or whore right.

The Selina Kyle was originally a prostitute; technically a jezebel.

And In a previous posts I mentioned how the last name 'Jet' maybe a nod to Jet magazine which is an magazine for African Americans .

What if Jezebel Jet is the new black Catwoman!

I think either the new Catwoman is a reboot of the old Catwoman or she is a new rival for the current Catwoman. I'm not sure if the Kyle Catwoman has been revealed in the current universe.

Jet has a lot in common with the Batman: TAS Catwoman as well. Jet has had a serious relationship with Bruce Wayne. She is a wealthy philanthropist who uses her wealth for a good cause. And like the Catwoman in the Halley Berry Catwoman movie she is associated with the modeling industry. I think it makes a lot of sense. I think it would be a lot better then her turning out to be the Black Glove.


Barring personal opinions about whether we do or don't want there to be a second Catwoman, does there seem to be an interesting correlation between the things I've pointed out about Jezebel Jet and Catwoman? I'm asking anyone?

[BoSoxJay]

am perfectly happy with the Black glove being the 4th World Gods as I am equally thrilled at the notion of it being Satan. Why? Because when you look at Batman there is really no realistic foe in his canon whom I think can real;istically defeat him or outsmart him at this point. Save for Bane when he was hopped up on venom or whatever I can't think of one other bad guy, save Hugo Strange, who has showed teh ability to strike at Bruce in this way. The Joker has done much worse, in my opinion, but I don't seem him being this subtle. I don't see someone like Ra's, Hush, Penguin or even Bane taking bruce out by besmirching his family and gaslighting him like this. Thuis stufff is serious puppetmastering and I can only accept Bruce falling for it at the hands of someone like Darkseid and Desaad or, yeah, Satan I guess.

Batman has outsmarted White Martians before any other hero knew what they were, he has gone toe-to-toe with the Shaggy Man/General, been in a fight with a possessed Superman and he has recovered from paralysis and doubt to defeat a totally then bat-shite crazy Azrael so, to me, getting beat by some second rate hunchback, a crazy shrink a dude who wears a metal bucket on his head, and a chick who dresses like a bug would be way more of a letdown than the devil showing up.

[Captain Jim]

In the 60's Batman TV show there were two Catwomen. First a black actress then a white one who replaced her.

You've got that turned around. Julie Newmar was first; Eartha Kitt came much later.

[Captain Jim]

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that we already have two Catwomen. Holly Robinson temporarily took over the role OYL after Selena gave birth. So the question is, do we need a third? I say definitely not.

And, no offense, Xybernauts, but I find your line of reasoning here extremely far fetched. I don't think Jezebelle has or will have anything to do with Catwoman.

[flapjaxx]

am perfectly happy with the Black glove being the 4th World Gods as I am equally thrilled at the notion of it being Satan. Why? Because when you look at Batman there is really no realistic foe in his canon whom I think can real;istically defeat him or outsmart him at this point.

Yeah, but the same goes for most comic heroes. Superman is unbeatable, Wolverine can't die, etc etc, the good guys almost always win. And personally, as much as I like the 4th World stuff and appreciate all its oft-lauded mythical profundity, I think it'd be really annoying if all 25 issues of Morrison's run just end up being--basically--a footnote to Final Crisis. Do we really need the Kirby characters in all their omnipotence to creep in here as well? Also, why would Darkseid (or Satan) need to name himself after a movie that John Mayhew made? While I definitely love the supernatural elements, I think the Black Glove himself, as Morrison defined him, is "a person".

Thuis stufff is serious puppetmastering and I can only accept Bruce falling for it at the hands of someone like Darkseid and Desaad or, yeah, Satan I guess.

If this stuff goes back at least 10-15 years of continuity, as it seems to, then I could accept pretty much any villain with above average intelligence as the culprit. Whoever's been behind this trap has clearly been working on it for a LONG time.

from paralysis and doubt to defeat a totally then bat-shite crazy Azrael so, to me, getting beat by some second rate hunchback, a crazy shrink a dude who wears a metal bucket on his head, and a chick who dresses like a bug would be way more of a letdown than the devil showing up.

Agreed. (And don't get me wrong, I like a lot of what you wrote and it would fit, but I'm just laying out my issues with it.) The Club of Villains is kind of lame, and I'm hoping it turns out that they're lame for a reason (as it was with the Club of Heroes). Also Dr. Hurt, while neat in his own way, isn't anything close to a fully realized character. Hurt is a crackpot without much of a personality (as of yet)--so I hope whoever is in charge of him casts him aside rudely at some point (sort of like how Mawhew was killed by the Black Glove after he failed, in issue 669).

[Xybernauts]

You've got that turned around. Julie Newmar was first; Eartha Kitt came much later.

Yeah, I realized that a few posts later. I had thought there were only two Catwomen, the black and the white one. I guess all the white one's looked the same to me. Maybe the mask threw me off.

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that we already have two Catwomen. Holly Robinson temporarily took over the role OYL after Selena gave birth. So the question is, do we need a third? I say definitely not.

really, I didn't realize. To me that would work out even better cause I was actually rooting for four Catwomen. One for each actress who played Catwomen in the 60's show. Catwoman has so many origins, this would give the many origins a place in continuity. The I don't know where he comes from excuse was already taken by the Joker. :tongue:



And, no offense, Xybernauts, but I find your line of reasoning here extremely far fetched. I don't think Jezebelle has or will have anything to do with Catwoman.

No offense taken. At least you commented on the idea, so I appreciate that. Why is it so far-fetched? You don't see how the dots conveniently connect? I mean there's nothing to really points to her being the Black Glove yet people accepted that premise pretty easily. Her name, her relationship with Wayne, her wealth and mission in life, they all parallel Catwoman in some way.

[JerryvonKramer]

Has anyone considered the unthinkable, i.e. that Bruce/ Batman becomes a VILLAIN for a while?

It would be a catastrophic and earth shattering event, akin to Hulk Hogan's "heel turn" in 1996: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zwr1dTrLbY0

Would it not turn the DC universe on its head if one of its premier heroes became a supervillain?

A million fanboys would go to bed crying tears, real tears made of water and salt.

[kalorama]

And for the record, the Halley Berry Catwoman movie had a theme about modeling and Jezebel Jet is a model.

And, for the record, that is a pretty flimsy excuse for a "connection."

Barring personal opinions about whether we do or don't want there to be a second Catwoman

So you asked for my opinion, then decided to "bar" it when it wasn't what you wanted to hear? Nice.


does there seem to be an interesting correlation between the things I've pointed out about Jezebel Jet and Catwoman? I'm asking anyone?

Not really.

[Liberty Belle Fan]

I'm still totally baffled about how this book affects the other books Batman is involved in. If Batman is replaced as Grayson, Drake, or anyone else do we see these changes in JLA, Superman/Batman, Trinity, Final Crisis, The Outsiders, etc. On another note, if Grayson becomes Batman, what becomes of the Nightwing title, etc, etc.

A character such as Batman with such a huge scope that covers so many books in the DCU is hard to replace.

[satchmo the dragon]

Do you mean John Mayhew, a character in this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hush%E2%80%A6_Hush,_Sweet_Charlotte

[flapjaxx]

Do you mean John Mayhew, a character in this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hush%E2%80%A6_Hush,_Sweet_Charlotte

Yup, I just wrote "Richard" by accident. People have pointed this out before, but isn't it interesting how similar the poster for that movie looks to the one for the Black Glove movie (as seen in #677 and #667). I've not seen the movie and have no idea if there are any "clues" in it.

[the-wolf]

My theory on the "last Batman story" was similar to what the OP wrote. Joker kills Alfred which finally makes Batman decide (choose, not snap!) to end the Joker's life. This is done covertly so as not to bring shame to the mantle of the Bat. The consequence of this, however, is Bruce decides he can no longer be Batman and the mantle must be passed on.

R.I.P.

[Xybernauts]

I'd have problems with yet another new Catwoman, regardles of her race. DC can't even handle one Catwoman correctly, nevermind two or three.

Actually, I think the addition of another Catwoman would spice up the original character. It would create a 'catfight' like scenerio between the rival Catwomen.
Look what it did for Robin's character.

I'm surprised that nobody has pointed out that we already have two Catwomen. Holly Robinson temporarily took over the role OYL after Selena gave birth. So the question is, do we need a third? I say definitely not.

And, no offense, Xybernauts, but I find your line of reasoning here extremely far fetched. I don't think Jezebelle has or will have anything to do with Catwoman.

I think the connections I've made are valid. Bear in mind, there are several different versions of Catwoman's character…


Jezebel Jet has had a serious relationship with Wayne.
Selina Kyle has had a serious relationship with Wayne.

Jezebel Jet is a wealthy philanthropist who uses her wealth for a good cause.(to help her country)
Selina Kyle ( Batman: TAS) is a wealthy philanthropist who uses her wealth for a good cause. (to help cats which are endangered species)

Jezebel Jet is a supermodel thus associated with modeling industry
the Halle Berry Catwoman ( in the Catwoman movie ) she is associated with the modeling industry.

The word Jezebel means prostitute
Selina Kyle was a prostitute.
I think the similarities are uncanny.

Plus the Morrison run has already made several references to the 60's Batman show. The 60's Batman show featured the black Catwoman.

What I'm saying is it's possible Morrison may try to take the origins of other versions of Catwoman and he may try to use those traits to create a new character entirely. This way we keep the original Catwoman with her original origins, but also get another Catwoman who uses those other origins which are also just as good. This Catwoman would take advantage of these other unused identities.

I'm also saying the points suggest a deeper message behind her character Jezebel Jet. That each point from her being a model, to being wealthy, etc. is part of a riddle of sorts possibly foreshadowing an otherwise unforeseen development.

[Captain Jim]

On another note, if Grayson becomes Batman, what becomes of the Nightwing title,

The rumor that emerged from the recent San Diego Comicon is that the book will be retitled "Red Robin" and will star Jason Todd.

[Captain Jim]

The word Jezebel means prostitute


Actually, it doesn't.

[Xybernauts]

Actually, it doesn't.

Well, not in a direct translation. If you want to get specific it means "not exalted". The word is used in referance to "an impudent, shameless, or morally unrestrained woman" which in turn is often used in referance/commonly associated with sexual immortality.

Below is from http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jezebel . I edited out the flack to get to the meat of each definition. The post was getting alittle too long. Goto link to get full def.



1. jezebel
A young female (usualy teenager) who can't keep her legs closed.
dirty slag slut pregnant disease
by pimp master c Apr 12, 2006 email it 0 comments

2. Jezebel
2. A wicked or Promiscious woman.
3. Someone who wears loads of make up and acts slutty.
queen (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=queen) slut (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slut)promiscious (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=promiscious) evil (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=evil) paris hilton (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=paris+hilton)
by Glenn Griffiths (http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=Glenn+Griffiths) Aug 7, 2006 email it (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jezebel#) 0 comments (http://www.urbandictionary.com/comments.php?defid=1905003)

3. jezebel
A whore, harlot, bitch, witch, or fake girl.
Dude, she's such a Jezebel.
bitch (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitch) whore (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whore)harlot (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=harlot) witch (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=witch) fake (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fake)
by Jordanne H (http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=Jordanne+H) Dec 28, 2005 email it (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jezebel#) 0 comments (http://www.urbandictionary.com/comments.php?defid=1564511)

5. Jezebel
2.A usual activity is sticking their hands down boys pants.
whore (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whore) ugly (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ugly)slut (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slut) fake (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=fake) badly highlighted hair (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=badly+highlighted+hair) annoying (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=annoying)
by Bank Robber (http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=Bank+Robber) Jul 16, 2008 email it (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jezebel#) 0 comments (http://www.urbandictionary.com/comments.php?defid=1620675)

6. jezebel
A slag (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slag), slut (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=slut), sket (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=sket), ho (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ho), who gets around and does alot of things with alot of people
by Dizzdee (http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=Dizzdee) Jul 20, 2008 email it (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jezebel#) 0 comments (http://www.urbandictionary.com/comments.php?defid=1353793)

7. jezebel
A very evil person that dosent care what people think of her and gets what she wants.
jezbel (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jezbel) bitch (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=bitch) evil (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=evil) whore (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=whore) cute (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cute)
by Jezbel (http://www.urbandictionary.com/author.php?author=Jezbel) Jan 28, 2006 email it (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=jezebel#) 0 comments (http://www.urbandictionary.com/comments.php?defid=1599119)


I mean it may not be in any official dictionaries, but it probably should be. I mean the majority of people's definitions include a definition of a whore in one way or another.

The rumor that emerged from the recent San Diego Comicon is that the book will be retitled "Red Robin" and will star Jason Todd.

I really hope they don't call Jason Todd "Red Robin". It would be cool, but there's a chain of fast food restuarants with the exact same name around where I live . The association would really cheapens Robin's name alot. It would really leaves a bad taste in my mouth.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ab/Red_Robin.JPG/180px-Red_Robin.JPG

[Captain Jim]

I mean it may not be in any official dictionaries

No, it's not. And I wasn't aware that it was used that way in, er, "urban talk."

The name is taken from the Jezebel in the Bible, who was evil and scheming, but not a slut or a whore. So most dictionaries give the Bible character as primary definition and something to the effect of "evil and scheming" as a secondary definition.

[Xybernauts]

No, it's not. And I wasn't aware that it was used that way in, er, "urban talk."

The name is taken from the Jezebel in the Bible, who was evil and scheming, but not a slut or a whore. So most dictionaries give the Bible character as primary definition and something to the effect of "evil and scheming" as a secondary definition.
I know where the word comes from, I mean I wrote a whole analogy between Jezebel Jet and the Jezebel in the Bible. I was talking about it's meaning.



For those of you who don't know the story of Jezebel from the bible...

In the Tanakh (the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian Old Testament), Jezebel is a queen of ancient Israel. Her story is told in 1st and 2nd Kings. She is introduced as a Phoenician princess, the daughter of King Ithobaal I of Sidon, who marries King Ahab. She turns Ahab away from the God of the Israelites and of the Jews (being the inhabitants of Judah in this context) and toward the worship of Phoenician god, Baal. Ahab and Jezebel let temples of Baal operate in Israel, and the pagan religion receives royal patronage. Furthermore, the queen uses her control over Ahab to lead the Hebrews into sin and subject them to tyranny.

...Jehu then confronts Jezebel in Jezreel and urges her eunuchs to kill the queen mother by throwing her out a window (defenestration). They comply, tossing her out the window and leaving her in the street to be eaten by dogs. Only Jezebel's skull, feet, and hands remained. Her ignominious end thus fulfills Elijah's prophecy 1Kings 21:22-26.

The relationship between Jezebel Jet and Batman probably reflects the relationship between the Biblical Jezebel and Ahab. Of course Ahab is also the name of the obsessed whale hunting captain in Moby Dick. Most likely Batman represents Ahab. Jezebel clearly was trying to make Wayne question his mission (aka his obsession). She was trying to get him to stray from his principles just before the invasion just like Biblical Jezebel got Ahab to stray from Judaism. It's also possible Ahab represents the Black Glove; assuming the Black Glove isn't Jezebel Jet.

The name Jezebel...

...the Hebrew form of this name means "not exalted". But it is highly unlikely her parents would have given her such a name. ..."Jezebel" is, then, a reinterpretation, intended to mock this Queen and her god, whom she encouraged Israel to worship.




"Urban talk"? So you mean, me and the 6 other people on http://www.urbandictionary.com are wrong? I'm not wrong. The word does mean whore, it just hasn't entered the mainstream definition yet. I mean who defines what a word means anyway? Some official definer of words elected into office at Webster dictionary? If I ask someone what a word means and everyone gives about the same answer, it probably means that's one of the meanings of the word.

Another completely differant site with the same definition http://www.definition-of.com/Jezebel .

Jezebel rate this definition:
(Adult / Slang)
Or: jezebel :
1. An evil, scheming woman.

2. A morally-loose woman. See playgirl for synonyms.

3. A prostitute. See prostitute for synonyms.

4. In 19 th century Britain, a short-lived synonym for penis. See penis for synonyms.

ETYMOLOGY: From the Bible, Jezebel, the infamously wicked wife of Ahab, king of Israel. Rosalie Maggio, The Dictionary of Bias-Free Usage (1991): ' The biblical story of Jezebel shows a murdering, controlling, rapacious person. She is primarily an amoral manipulator and only secondarily a woman. Instead of focusing on Jezebel's viciousness, the dictionary definition of a jezebel emphasizes her sexuality (a shameless or abandoned woman) when in fact Jezebel did not in any way trade on her sex to carry out her evil deeds.'


At http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?r=20&q=jezebel which is part of Dictionary.com the synonyms of Jezebel are...

Main Entry: jezebel
Part of Speech: noun
Synonyms: fury, gorgon, hussy, jade, prostitute, she-devil, slattern, slut, strumpet, termagant, tramp, trollop, virago


But let's try not to stray too far off topic. The point is the word Jezebel is commonly associated with prostitution (regardless of whether it's the official definition or not). I think it may suggest that Jezebel may be a possible candidate for a Catwoman; which I think is a great idea. If they can resurrect Jason Todd and give Batman a son; I don't think it's a far stretch that they could make a third Catwoman.

[Armadillo]

I didnt read all the post here, but i saw you have some hebrew issue.
Well, im from israel. Hebrew is my First language.
So you can ask me, i guess.

[Xybernauts]

I didnt read all the post here, but i saw you have some hebrew issue.
Well, im from israel. Hebrew is my First language.
So you can ask me, i guess.
We were debating whether or not the word Jezebel means prostitute. I believe it's possible that Jezebel Jet is a subtle way of saying black prostitute which could be a clue that Jezebel Jet may become the black Catwoman.

I already know Jezebel is label given to a princess in the Bible. Anything you could add would be helpful. Preferably something to boost my argument. But I'm pretty sure I have this argument nipped in the bud. No offense to you Capt. Jim.

[carabas]

The actual name means 'not exalted'.
Merriam-Webster gives this:

jezebel
One entry found.

Jezebel

Main Entry: Jez·e·bel
Pronunciation: \ˈje-zə-ˌbel\
Function: noun
Etymology: Hebrew Izebhel
Date: 14th century
1: the Phoenician wife of Ahab who according to the account in I and II Kings pressed the cult of Baal on the Israelite kingdom but was finally killed in accordance with Elijah's prophecy
2often not capitalized : an impudent, shameless, or morally unrestrained woman

[carabas]

We were debating whether or not the word Jezebel means prostitute. I believe it's possible that Jezebel Jet is a subtle way of saying black prostitute which could be a clue that Jezebel Jet may become the black Catwoman.Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Catwoman's prostitute origin only very marginally canonical, with a couple of stories even contradicting it?

[Armadillo]

mmm... Actually, I really dont know any meaning for the name Jezebel (in Hebrew we spell it more like Izavel-איזבל) Its a name from the bible like any other name from the bible :\
And we are'nt use this name as a name (you'll not found any people named like this), and not as a word when speaking.

Hope i helped.

[HopeLantern]

That's a good theory. I could see that b/c Batman has stated before, what separates the bat family from the villians is that the Bat family doesn't kill. If he killed, it would be the end of the "old way" of being Batman, and the death of his core beliefs about the war on crime. Hence, "Rest in Peace". He will take the mask off for a while "Batman" goes on hiatus. But at some point he'll put it back on.

[Batman Fan 31593]

Sorry if this has been brough up before but I just remembered a rumor from 2005 about what the status quo of the Batman titles would be after the one year jump following Infinite Crisis. I did a google search and found the link to the Lying in the Gutters forum from July 25, 2005:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=14982

This rumor had a green light next to it but it turned out not to be true. But perhaps instead of just starting out with this status quo One Year Later, they decided instead to slowly build to it over a couple years time and this is what will happen at the end of R.I.P.?

[Captain Jim]

I already know Jezebel is label given to a princess in the Bible.

Wrong, it wasn't a label, it was her name. And she was the queen, not a princess.

[Xybernauts]

Wrong, it wasn't a label, it was her name. And she was the queen, not a princess.

Do you read anything I write? Quoted in a previous post from a wiki (with no disputes that is well referenced) it said...

...the Hebrew form of this name means "not exalted". But it is highly unlikely her parents would have given her such a name. ..."Jezebel" is, then, a reinterpretation, intended to mock this Queen and her god, whom she encouraged Israel to worship.

This is from a wiki. It could be a name, but most likely it's a label. And did I ever say she was a princess?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is Catwoman's prostitute origin only very marginally canonical, with a couple of stories even contradicting it?

Well she was a prostitute, but I imagine she stopped once she became Catwoman. But I think it's an intergral part of her origin. That's like saying Superman being a farmer is marginal.

from wiki... I love Wikipedia..


Modern Age version


Tangled origins

A revision in Catwoman's origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_story), and the introduction of the modern version of the character, came in 1986 when writer Frank Miller (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Miller_(comics)) and artist David Mazzucchelli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Mazzucchelli) published Batman: Year One (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batman:_Year_One), a revision of Batman’s origin. In the course of the story, the origin of Catwoman was also re-envisioned. Selina Kyle is reintroduced as a cat-loving prostitute (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution)/dominatrix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dominatrix) who is inspired to become a costumed cat burglar when she sees Batman in action. In this story, Holly Robinson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holly_Robinson) is introduced as a young runaway and prostitute Kyle has taken in.
The 1989 Catwoman limited series (collected in trade paperback form as Catwoman: Her Sister's Keeper) by writer Mindy Newell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindy_Newell) and artist J.J. Birch expanded on Miller's Year One origin. Her Sister's Keeper explores Selina's early life as a prostitute and the start of her career as Catwoman. This is a dark and tragic period which culminates with Selina's former pimp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pimp) Stan abducting and violently abusing her sister Maggie. Selina kills Stan to save her sister, and is able to do so with impunity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impunity).

[carabas]

And later, far inferior, but no less canonical stories revised that, saying that she was only pretending to be a prostitude.

From the very same Wiki article:
Portions of Her Sister's Keeper and the Year One origin conceived by Frank Miller remain canonical to Catwoman’s origin, while other portions have been dropped over the years. It has been implied that Her Sister's Keeper was rendered non-canonical by the events of Zero Hour, and subsequent writers have rejected Miller's choice to make the post-Crisis Catwoman a prostitute. In an attempt to harmonize the various versions, some writers have posited that Catwoman, early in her career, pretended to be a prostitute in order to scam lonely men and rob them. However, characters associated with Catwoman's past as a prostitute have remained a part of her supporting cast. Holly, from Batman: Year One, and her sister Maggie (from Her Sister's Keeper) have appeared regularly in the Catwoman series.
...
In the Catwoman: Year One story (Catwoman Annual #2, 1998), Selina (now an adult) achieved some success as a thief. Following a disastrous burglary, however, she accepted an offer to "lay low" by posing as a dominatrix in the employ of a pimp named Stan. Their plan was to trick men into divulging information that might be used in future crimes. According to this storyline, Selina trained under the Armless Master of Gotham City, receiving education in martial arts and culture. During this time, Catwoman was given her trademark cat-o-nine tails whip by a client, which Selina kept as a trophy of her time posing as a hooker.

The higher-ups at DC do not like anything sexual be assiciated with their big two. See also Batwoman's trouble to get her ongoing series published, the sabotage of The Authority, and the recent demotion of Apollo from one of Wildstorm's Supermen analogues to Wildstorms's Ray analogue in Countdown: Arena.

from wiki... I love Wikipedia.It's occasionally helpful, but the thing to keep in mind is that nothing in it is guaranteed to be accurate (especially if you're not even reading the entire article).

[weghio]

Xybernauts,

For Christ's sake. We're discussing RIP and its gamut of meanings and ramifications, and where the *HELL* do you come up with this ridiculous Catwoman theory? Catwoman is completely absent from any of Morrison's stories, in person or in symbol. If you want to debate the merits of a black Catwoman, make up a new thread. But this has nothing to do with RIP.

[BoSoxJay]

So any new theories based off of 679?

[Xybernauts]

And later, far inferior, but no less canonical stories revised that, saying that she was only pretending to be a prostitude.

From the very same Wiki article:


The higher-ups at DC do not like anything sexual be assiciated with their big two. See also Batwoman's trouble to get her ongoing series published, the sabotage of The Authority, and the recent demotion of Apollo from one of Wildstorm's Supermen analogues to Wildstorms's Ray analogue in Countdown: Arena.

It's occasionally helpful, but the thing to keep in mind is that nothing in it is guaranteed to be accurate (especially if you're not even reading the entire article).

Actually, it seems you were right after all. But despite, prostitution is still an integral part of Catwoman's character regardless of whether or not she was pretending to be a prostitute or not. By the way, I skim through the articles. Specifically I was looking for what would support my argument and when I did I stopped reading. I know they're not always 100% accurate, but then what on the Internet is? They're are still a great source of reference. And usually if the info is disputed by other users or poorly referenced the article will tell you, so I trust the site for the most part.

By the way, as long as we're nitpicking, you really need to work on your spelling. When you said, Batwoman I assume you meant Catwoman?

Xybernauts,

For Christ's sake. We're discussing RIP and its gamut of meanings and ramifications, and where the *HELL* do you come up with this ridiculous Catwoman theory? Catwoman is completely absent from any of Morrison's stories, in person or in symbol. If you want to debate the merits of a black Catwoman, make up a new thread. But this has nothing to do with RIP.

Who the hell are you come in and start telling me what to do?! You're barely are on your second post and your already blatantly trying to flame people. If you don't have anything constructive to add to the argument then keep your half assed posts to your self. I'd explain the correlation between Jezebel Jet and R.I.P., but if you haven't figured it out for yourself, it's probably beyond you, LOL. By the way, I'm not getting into a flame war with you. If you tell me something to piss me off again, don't expect a reply next time. Just because you don't agree with a theory doesn't mean it's stupid or off topic. That's the point of the forum, to converse. If all you want is for people to kiss your ass, well you came to the wrong poster.

[EximiusNero]

Actually, I think catwoman was mentioned in morrison's run. I'm pretty sure she went to Zatanas place to talk to her. They ended up discussing Jezebel, because they both had some romantic history with Bruce. Zatana told Selina to tell Bruce her feelings or something.

That's actually the only piece of evidence I see that backs up your theory Xybernauts. I have to say though, I just read through the 6 pages of this topic, and while I came for interesting ideas about R.I.P., a lot of what I got was catwoman speculation and flaming.

Look, Xybernauts if you ask my opinion I don't think your theory is going to pan out, and it seems everyone else who responded to your theory thinks the same why. Don't keep repeating your ideas until someone agrees with you because you've obviously seen that they don't. If you really want to discuss the multiple catwoman idea any further I suggest you create a new topic and stop cluttering this one, because while your initial post did relate to R.I.P. in that you were comparing Jez and Selina, the posts that came after don't.

On a different note, #679 was amazing! What did you guys think about Hurt's revelation about himself. (not sure if this is a spoiler thread)

[Red_Knight]

Actually, I think catwoman was mentioned in morrison's run. I'm pretty sure she went to Zatanas place to talk to her. They ended up discussing Jezebel, because they both had some romantic history with Bruce. Zatana told Selina to tell Bruce her feelings or something.

That was Detective Comics, though, written by Dini and NOT part of the R.I.P. arc in any substantial way.

[EximiusNero]

ah sorry about that. It was the first time I picked up an issue of Detective Comics, I guess got it mixed up with Batman. Plus I just read that issue as well as morrison's whole run yesterday. :)

[Xybernauts]

I'm simply responding to other people's posts. I don't have a right to defend my argument? If people don't want me to continue to voice my opinion they should just stop rebutting me. If they don't say anything I won't respond. Honestly, I don't really understand why the meaning of Jezebel's name was so important anyway. I even asked that we not stray off topic and we focus on RIP, but people insisted on continuing the argument so I complied. I mean I know the majority of people don't agree, and I'm certainly not trying to convince anyone, but there may be some googler who may come across this thread and I at least want to say my piece. Anyway, I'm more then happy to move on, but the other posters have to move on as well. If they don't i won't. I was actually interested in talking about the meaning of the word Zur-En-Arrh. And thank you for at least doing me the courtesy of talking to me in a reasonable tone. To tell the truth I believe if it wasn't for our arguement this thread would probably be dead already anyways.

[EximiusNero]

Well aside from the fact that Zur-En-Arrh was an alien planet that Batman visited in the 50's comics I don't know much about it. Also the Bat-radia was given to Bruce from that planet's batman (who wore purple, yellow and red).

Timothy Callahan did a great post about the subject here: http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/search/label/m-bats

I'm not sure how to link directly to the post so if you're having trouble finding it, search using the words "Batman #678 and Batman #113: The Zur-En-Arrh Connection".

Edit: Nevermind, here is the direct link: http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/2008/07/batman-678-and-batman-113-zur-en-arrh.html

[Hatut Zeraze]

I know that it was pages ago that this was mentioned, but two different posters seemed to be suggesting Jezebel Jet's last name may have been inspired, in some way by Jet, the magazine.

I just want to come on here and refute that very questionable logic. That would be like saying that Kirby's Forever People was inspired by People magazine, or the Time Lords from Dr. Who were inspired by Time magazine.

The founders of the magazine probably used the word "jet" because, amongst other things, it means "black." It does not mean "African" or "African-American." It means black, the color.

When I consider what Grant Morrison was thinking when he created Jezebel Jet and I wonder what is more likely, that Morrison wanted a word that meant black, or he wanted to reference an African-American magazine, the simpler explanation makes much more sense. Unless the comic itself gives us some reason to think so, which it really has not, for the rest of this thread can we all just assume that the magazine was not an influence on Grant Morrison's story?

[Xybernauts]

I know that it was pages ago that this was mentioned, but two different posters seemed to be suggesting Jezebel Jet's last name may have been inspired, in some way by Jet, the magazine.

I just want to come on here and refute that very questionable logic. That would be like saying that Kirby's Forever People was inspired by People magazine, or the Time Lords from Dr. Who were inspired by Time magazine.

The founders of the magazine probably used the word "jet" because, amongst other things, it means "black." It does not mean "African" or "African-American." It means black, the color.

When I consider what Grant Morrison was thinking when he created Jezebel Jet and I wonder what is more likely, that Morrison wanted a word that meant black, or he wanted to reference an African-American magazine, the simpler explanation makes much more sense. Unless the comic itself gives us some reason to think so, which it really has not, for the rest of this thread can we all just assume that the magazine was not an influence on Grant Morrison's story?

See, people are just drawn to the Jezebel Jet argument. Who am I to ignore people's arguments. :)

Well, honestly, I didn't know jet meant black, but if it does that's even better because it still supports my argument and it does so in a way that's even better then my first theory. Thanks for the insight.

I was still pretty close. At the time the idea that Jet was a reference the magazine was the best argument put forth explaining the meaning of her name. Well technically it was the only argument put forth, so i make no apologies. Besides, even though I admit your theory as to the meaning of Jet is a little better then mine, there's nothing to suggest that Jet magazine isn't the inspiration behind the name. And yes I realize there's nothing to suggest it is either.

Well aside from the fact that Zur-En-Arrh was an alien planet that Batman visited in the 50's comics I don't know much about it. Also the Bat-radia was given to Bruce from that planet's batman (who wore purple, yellow and red).

Timothy Callahan did a great post about the subject here: http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/search/label/m-bats

I'm not sure how to link directly to the post so if you're having trouble finding it, search using the words "Batman #678 and Batman #113: The Zur-En-Arrh Connection".

Edit: Nevermind, here is the direct link: http://geniusboyfiremelon.blogspot.com/2008/07/batman-678-and-batman-113-zur-en-arrh.html

I read the article. I was hoping for a little more info, but overall it was interesting. Most of the important details I knew already though. It seems to be saying, correct me if I'm wrong, that Zur-En- Arrh is just a way to connect RIP to the original Zur-En-Arrh comic? And it says that the idea is that Bruce thinks he's in a dream or wants to think he's in a dream, but he's not.

originally i posted a brief theory that possibly explained the meaning of the word...

The meaning of Zur-En-Arrh...

Zur means... "stone; rock; that besieges" according to Wikipedia.
En is (cuneiform) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_%28cuneiform%29), Sumerian for "lord" or "lord priest"
Arrh - I can't find any references to. The references I do find point out it's a type of expression. For example the stereotypical pirate often is shown saying 'Arrh!. In reference to Batman, it could be a type of yell meant to scare.So my own theory is leaning on the idea that Zur-En-Arrh means something like "the besieging rock lord that scares"? That phrase seems to describe Batman to me. In the original Batman story Zur-En-Arrh was actually a planet where Batman had Superman-like powers. Superman, the man of steel being happens to be as hard as a rock if not harder.

[weghio]

Xybernauts,

I'll tell you the reasons for my exasperative tone with you. It's because you have been demonstrating in this thread that you don't have the first idea about literary interpretations and how to separate the relevant dots from the irrelevant ones when connecting them together. You take ideas that are some of the farthest out there (Jezebel could be a black Catwoman!!!11one! Jet is inspired by a magazine!!11eleven!!) that are supported by or referenced in exactly ZERO places in the entirety of Morrison's run, whether literally or symbolically.

And when defending your inane theories, you say things like the following:

"there's nothing to suggest that Jet magazine isn't the inspiration behind the name. And yes I realize there's nothing to suggest it is either."

Which shows a complete lack of understanding on your part as to who bears the burden of persuasion in supporting any given theory. By the above quote, you're essentially implying that since there's nothing directly supporting OR directly opposing your stupid theory, that your stupid theory has about an equal chance of being right as being wrong.

BZZT! WRONG!

That'd be like me saying to you that there is an invisible, intangible ghost behind you right now, and since there's nothing directly supporting or opposing my stupid assertion, that my stupid assertion has a fair chance of being right.

You see, when you're the one making a positive claim (i.e. Jet is inspired by a magazine), the burden is entirely on you to support it affirmatively through clues found within the comics, or at the very least circumstantial meta-evidence by examining, for instance, the author's interviews / statements, or even the financial motivations of the editorial board.

But you aren't even coming close to doing that. What you're doing is just throwing together a bunch of random stuff and pulling contrived connections out of your ass, that is supported NOWHERE either within the comics or within the comics industry.

FYI, I'm willing to bet any amount, and give you 20:1 odds, that Jezebel will have no connection whatsoever to a black Catwoman, by the time Morrison's RIP storyline ends. That's two more issues left, and I'll bet you anything that not even the name Catwoman is mentioned anywhere within those issues. Same goes for the name Jet being inspired by some stupid magazine - I'm sure someone could ask Morrison directly for verification.

Finally, LOL at you saying this: "If people don't want me to continue to voice my opinion they should just stop rebutting me. If they don't say anything I won't respond."

OH. OK. So if no one bothers to refute your stupid theories, then you'll just rest assured, smug in your misguided belief that your stupid theories have some kernel of truth in them. OF COURSE people should have the right to refute your stupid theories. You can try to defend yourself, but seriously, given the interpretative skills you have demonstrated thus far, you are simply not up to the task.

[carabas]

I don't think that it is entirely imossible that Morrison wanted to refer to a pop culture magazine, but it is far more likely that he simply wanted a nicely alliterating classic superhero universe name.

[Xybernauts]

Xybernauts,

I'll tell you the reasons for my exasperative tone with you. It's because you have been demonstrating in this thread that you don't have the first idea about literary interpretations and how to separate the relevant dots from the irrelevant ones when connecting them together. You take ideas that are some of the farthest out there (Jezebel could be a black Catwoman!!!11one! Jet is inspired by a magazine!!11eleven!!) that are supported by or referenced in exactly ZERO places in the entirety of Morrison's run, whether literally or symbolically.

And when defending your inane theories, you say things like the following:

"there's nothing to suggest that Jet magazine isn't the inspiration behind the name. And yes I realize there's nothing to suggest it is either."

Which shows a complete lack of understanding on your part as to who bears the burden of persuasion in supporting any given theory. By the above quote, you're essentially implying that since there's nothing directly supporting OR directly opposing your stupid theory, that your stupid theory has about an equal chance of being right as being wrong.

BZZT! WRONG!

That'd be like me saying to you that there is an invisible, intangible ghost behind you right now, and since there's nothing directly supporting or opposing my stupid assertion, that my stupid assertion has a fair chance of being right.

You see, when you're the one making a positive claim (i.e. Jet is inspired by a magazine), the burden is entirely on you to support it affirmatively through clues found within the comics, or at the very least circumstantial meta-evidence by examining, for instance, the author's interviews / statements, or even the financial motivations of the editorial board.

But you aren't even coming close to doing that. What you're doing is just throwing together a bunch of random stuff and pulling contrived connections out of your ass, that is supported NOWHERE either within the comics or within the comics industry.

FYI, I'm willing to bet any amount, and give you 20:1 odds, that Jezebel will have no connection whatsoever to a black Catwoman, by the time Morrison's RIP storyline ends. That's two more issues left, and I'll bet you anything that not even the name Catwoman is mentioned anywhere within those issues. Same goes for the name Jet being inspired by some stupid magazine - I'm sure someone could ask Morrison directly for verification.

Finally, LOL at you saying this: "If people don't want me to continue to voice my opinion they should just stop rebutting me. If they don't say anything I won't respond."

OH. OK. So if no one bothers to refute your stupid theories, then you'll just rest assured, smug in your misguided belief that your stupid theories have some kernel of truth in them. OF COURSE people should have the right to refute your stupid theories. You can try to defend yourself, but seriously, given the interpretative skills you have demonstrated thus far, you are simply not up to the task.

Oh well, what was I thinking. Are you serious. The problem with your view is you expect it to be directly supported, but if my brilliant theory is correct and it's supposed to be part of surprise ending. Then yes it makes perfect sense why it's not directly pointed to within the context of the Morrison run. What do you expect, for him to show Jezebel carrying a sign saying hey I'm Catwoman. It wouldn't be much of a surprise if she did now would it. Or maybe they should announce it at comicon. It's a plot twist. It's meant to be for the most part, unforeseen.

I mean it's been said that Morrison's work is influenced by pop culture. I mean at least I'm trying to present some type of theory. And I was right about the name Jet being a reference to black people regardless of how you interpret the name Jet.

OK, you want me to explain my theory dot for dot. My theory is based on the idea that nothing Morrison does is random and everything has some type of meaning. I took the word Jezebel and asked my self what is the possible meaning behind the name. I did the same for the word jet. I looked up the word Jezebel and then I looked up the word jet.

Then I remembered that Catwoman was a prostitute in her original origin and the word jezebel had been used as a slang word for prostitution. Jet on the other hand means black.

Jet means black, jezebel means prostitute so I surmised that reference "black prostitute". I thought of possible associations to Batman mythology. The Catwoman being the most prominent prostitute that I know of in the Batman mythology. Jet means black, jezebel means prostitute so I surmised that reference "black prostitute" is an indirect way of saying "black Catwoman", but my theory didn't stop there. Note that this process was part of a sequence of trial and error.

If that was all I had to back up my theory I'd be skeptical to, but I remembered Morrision has referred to the 60's Batman show a few times during his run. I remembered that the original black Catwoman came from the 60's Batman TV show.

I then began to examine Jezebel Jets character. Her most obvious distinction is that she has had a serious relationship with Bruce Wayne. When people think of Catwoman they associate her character with as being a serious love interest of Bruce Wayne.

Jezebel Jet is also a rich philanthropist. While I don't think TAS has been referenced in the Morrison run we do know that in TAS Catwoman was also a rich philanthropist. While the two identities don't tie in directly in together they do have distinct qualities which are very similar.

Jezebel Jet is a supermodel. Hally Berry's Catwoman movie clearly was trying to cater to a female audience by using themes like modeling which is quite popular with women. While the association is loose, there is a faint connection there as well.

My point is it almost seems like Morrison took the Catwomen from a number of different sources and weaved them together to create Jezebel Jet; quite possibly with the intention of making her a Catwoman. I have yet to hear an alternative theory expaining why the two characters have as much in common.

The reason DC might seek to create a new Catwoman is to help iron out some of the wrinkles in Catwoman's history. Catwoman has several great origins and secret identities which can't be used by the original Catwoman. Rather than wasting them, perhaps they are trying to create a new character to embody these unused versions of Catwoman. DC comics has already tried to create a second Catwoman once. Whose to say they aren't trying to do it again through a skilled writer like Morrison.

The rest I can't really support and are just a few theories as to why DC might be motivated to create a black Catwoman.

Many characters in his run will potentially give their identities to other characters like Batman and Robin, Catwoman may be included. We may not see this new Catwoman in RIP at all. It makes more sense that it would appear Battle for the Cowl.

Also, Marvel comics has been placing emphasis on black characters mentioned in another thread. For example, recently Storm married Black Panther, they have revived Luke Cage, etc. Maybe DC is attempting to respond to the competition by paying more attention to their black audience. It's also very possible they are trying to distance themselves from the prostitute version of Catwoman.

See how brilliant that is. I mean I could write a thesis paper for you, but I don't plan on going that far. And by the way my english literature teacher in college actually thought some of my theories were quite good so I think my grasp of literary theory is spot on.

I mean you call my theories stupid, but I have yet to see you come up with even one theory. Atleast I'm trying which is more then I can say for you. My theory may or may not pan out in the end, but atleast it's something. I mean outside of ineptly refuting my claims, do you have anything to actually contribute to the RIP discussion. I mean you are supposed to be sooooo skilled at literary interpretation, LOL, so enlighten us with your insight. So far all I see is someone in the dark trying to pull other people into the dark. I mean you seem quite skilled at insulting people, but you haven't yet to explain why my connections are incorrect.

For example, let's look at Hatut Zeraze's post. He didn't just say I was wrong, he also offered his own alternative theory. See, that's something. I don't believe you have anything to contribute. I mean is insulting people and getting angry all you know how to do. Try doing something a bit more constructive instead pulling things out of your ass.

I mean i think my theory is far more interesting then assuming that Jet is the Black Glove, which by the way, has nothing backing it up.

[carabas]

Jezebel Jet is a supermodel. Hally Berry's Catwoman movie clearly was trying to cater to a female audience by using themes like modeling which is quite popular with women. What? Seriously? I'm pretty sure it was trying as hard as possible to repulse women.

My point is it almost seems like Morrison took the Catwomen from a number of different sources and weaved them together to create Jezebel Jet; quite possibly with the intention of making her a Catwoman. I have yet to hear an alternative theory expaining why the two characters have as much in common.This would be contrary to his modus operandus for his Batman run. In Morrison's run, all Batman stories, even the Adam West era ones and the ones with aliens and time travel, all happened to the same Batman. So obviously all Catwomen (the hooker, the one that was merely posing as a hooker, Loeb's socialite, the amnesiac stewardess... are also the same woman.

The reason DC might seek to create a new Catwoman is to help iron out some of the wrinkles in Catwoman's history.They just canceled/mercy-killed her book and reset her to supervillainstatus. You really think DC wants people to recall that ther was once a Halle Berry Not-Catwoman film that is widely regarded as one of the worst films in the history of moving pictures?

The rest I can't really support and are just a few theories as to why DC might be motivated to create a black Catwoman.Even if DC were to do this, they wouldn't force her into Grant Morrison's big Batman story.

It's also very possible they are trying to distance themselves from the prostitute version of Catwoman.By creating a new Catwoman who is basically called Hooker Black? Unlikely

I mean i think my theory is far more interesting then assuming that Jet is the Black Glove, which by the way, has nothing backing it up.Jet being part of the Black Glove is backed up by the tale of the biblical Jezebel and the role she played therein.

[Captain Jim]

I can understand weghio's frustrations, because I share them. Anybody is entitled to any theory they want, and there's no need for anybody to start insulting anybody else. But I'm sorry, Xybernauts, your theory is the most convoluted nonsense I have ever seen. But it's pretty obvious you're not going to change your mind, no matter what anyone else says, so I'm not going to waste any more time responding to it.

Let's move on, people. If we ignore him, hopefully he'll stop talking about it.

[EximiusNero]

See, I think Captain Jim was trying to move on when he said "Let's move on, people". And there you go, bringing it up again....

[Xybernauts]

Your probbly right, EximiusNero. I said my piece anyway and am ready to move on. I believe the point of debate is to help grow promote growth, but I believe at some point what was meant tobe entertaining instead brought a great deal of animosity. Who knows, maybe this will be a learning experience. I think we need to learn alittle bit more tolerance on this board. Not specifically racial, but also for other people's ideas and beliefs. Let's not turn this board into the Gotham City of the internet.

[michaeljsmith]

Haven't been hitting the forum regularly, so pardon me if this was thrown out there already, but since Detective Comics is focusing on Hush so much and Dr Hurt seems to be obesessed with saying he is Thomas Wayne could he be somebody from back in the day? Maybe Tommy Elliott's dead dad? The guy was a drunk and a little crazy from what we have seen.

I realize this is not likely but still one of the out there theories for all of us to shake our heads at and say NO (and allow us to move on from other ideas).

[BoSoxJay]

I posted this in the "679" thread but figured I'd throw it in here too.

i can totally see the R.I.P. here meaning Batman kills.

Think sbout it. Instead of saying "Batman Kills" as the title of his story Morrison uses "R.I.P." instead. "R.I.P." is really just a synonym people use for killed anyway.

Bats with the baseball bat and the attitude that is no longer constrained by Bruce Wayne sure looks likehe is about o go to town on Caligula there.

I can see the real title of this being "Batman Kills" and the "R.I.P." in the title just a way to throw readers off in thinking that Batman get's killed when, in fact, he is finally pushed to being the one who kills.

[EximiusNero]

Someone was talking about this movie before, but just thought I'd bring it up again.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hush%E2%80%A6_Hush,_Sweet_Charlotte

The cover for this film features a black hand (or glove) very much like the movie poster in the Batman comics. Also, "Hush" is mentioned in the title. Also, there is a character in the movie named John Mayhew.

Anyway the reason I bring it up is coincidently (again) I saw this movie playing on tv yesterday. I wasn't able to watch it, but really what are the chances that this would play on tv during Batman R.I.P.? Maybe Morrison payed to have it shown so someone could watch it and maybe pick up a few clues? Nah, probably not. :)