Supernatural -- Season Four

[ForeverTaskmaster]

I can't wait until season 4 starts. After the awesome cliffhanger of last season I am counting the days. At the San Diego Comic Con there was a Supernatural panel and they showed the first 5 minutes of season 4. Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh. The suspense is killing me. This season is gonna kick unholy a**.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

Tick, tock, tick, tock. It's almost time for the second best tv show on the planet. Supernatural is coming. I can't wait. If you have never seen the show check it out.

[G. Wayne]

Pretty excited too. Got a friend mine into the show after he saw the first season with Netflix. Good times ahead.

[Legato]

I still dont like Ruby but I admit she has grown on me to the point whare I hope nothing happened to her and she would still be supporting the Winchesters this season.

Im interested in who the main villain would be this time. Depending on if Lilith wasn't completly vanquished of course

[Jared]

I've been meaning to check this show out for a while, I saw an episode last season and thought it was interesting, though it was part of a continuing storyline that I didn't quite follow.

Caught the first few minutes during lull in TNA. The "Wedge Antilles" made it tough to change the channel.

[SnowTrooper]

Awesome, awesome episode tonight. Im glad to see an Angel finally show up, and so far, he looks pretty badass. The last two minutes of tonights episode is a perfect example of why this is one of my favorite shows.

[the_coldest_sun]

I absolutely loved tonight's episode! They added to the Supernatural mythology quite nicely with their version of angels. I love how even the demons didn't know what they were dealing with, because apparently angels are so badass and rarely ever seen that it left them clueless. I also love that they're extremely powerful and it took them 3 full seasons to finally introduce one to us.

Sam exorcising demons with his power alone was pretty cool too. I'm glad he's learning to harness his power without going all dark-side.

So we got Sam working with a demon (Ruby) and Dean working with an angel (Caziel?)...I'm excited to see where this is all going.

[AlistairCrane]

I called it being an angel and I was glad to be proven right!

Supernatural kicks all sorts of ass and that's why I love it.

Nice to see the show solve its budget problems in a clever way by "recasting" Ruby (probably on an episode-by-episode basis).

[Atom_basher]

I called it being an angel and I was glad to be proven right!

Supernatural kicks all sorts of ass and that's why I love it.

Nice to see the show solve its budget problems in a clever way by "recasting" Ruby (probably on an episode-by-episode basis).

I think they are gonna keep this actress around to play ruby, if im not mistaken, there are some press photos using that actress, but that brings up a very interesting question, does anyone else think its pretty shady that sam courted a girl, with the intention that she would be possesed?

[Samuraixsithlord]

I think they are gonna keep this actress around to play ruby, if im not mistaken, there are some press photos using that actress, but that brings up a very interesting question, does anyone else think its pretty shady that sam courted a girl, with the intention that she would be possesed?

I think Ruby was in possession of the girl for awhile now. When Dean showed up it was all a big act. No one seemed to care about who ever Ruby was in before.

hope Sam is hittin that.

[the_coldest_sun]

I too believe it was Ruby from the beginning once it was revealed, but I could also believe that Sam is getting some action from her as well. Although if he is, I don't see it as a romantic thing. He's working with her now and I'm sure he needed some form of comfort after loosing his brother. Those sorts of things tend to happen in real life.

[marshal99]

I prefer the old Ruby actress , she's cuter. They get rid of the old ruby and bela and bring in a less prettier replacement , bah ~!

[DonC]

So we got Sam working with a demon (Ruby) and Dean working with an angel (Caziel?)...I'm excited to see where this is all going.


Sam vs. Dean. Watching the final two minutes, knowing Sam was using his powers, that's the feeling I got. Sam's going to turn evil and Dean was brought back to stop him.

[Nevets F]

I loved last nights episode...I do prefer Old Ruby over NuRuby though. I wish they would have been able to afford Katie Cassidy again this season.

[Captain Smith]

Good episode - I would have liked to see some more Hell time but maybe the flashbacks will give us a look at that experience.

There's no such things as angels was cute. Why? If supernatural bad guys exist, why not the other team?

[Samuraixsithlord]

I too believe it was Ruby from the beginning once it was revealed, but I could also believe that Sam is getting some action from her as well. Although if he is, I don't see it as a romantic thing. He's working with her now and I'm sure he needed some form of comfort after loosing his brother. Those sorts of things tend to happen in real life.

it could be romantic. There was that episode last season where Dean was trapped with that demon in a basement, and we find out that she's in love with that other demon. Plus she did take pity on Dean and tried to stop the other demon from killing him.

But yea, i prefer to have Ruby and Sam just being sex buddies.

[Atom_basher]

I've watched the episode 2 times now, and im convinced it wasn't ruby from the beginning. and i definitively think Sam is finding chicks for ruby to inhabit. there are many reasons I think it wasn't Ruby from the beginning. main reason is when dean asked where ruby was. same said that she was dead "for now"

[Surtur]

Or Sam could of been lying to Dean when he told him that. There is no conclusive evidence that she wasn't Ruby from the beginning of the episode. Of course that doesn't mean he didn't court the girl for Ruby to possess, but why would Ruby need him to do that? She just could of possessed any random girl. Sam said he opened up the devil's gate, that's probably how he got her out of hell, and after that she could of possessed anyone.

I'm surprised Dean didn't return with any powers, Sam has powers and I was sure they wouldn't pass up a chance to give Dean some sort of power, but I guess not.

I really hope that Dean wasn't brought back to stop Sam because he's going to turn evil, we've already been through the "what if sam goes evil" thing several times. I also hope that we at least get some closure on lilith.

[G. Wayne]

Sam finding bodies for Ruby to possess? Neat. Hadn't thought about that. :biggrin:
I miss old Ruby too though.

...
I'm surprised Dean didn't return with any powers, Sam has powers and I was sure they wouldn't pass up a chance to give Dean some sort of power, but I guess not.
...

It's possible that the angel is going to give Dean something after talking to him, (he tried approaching Dean before in the episode) or that Dean just doesn't know he has any powers.

[kalorama]

Or Sam could of been lying to Dean when he told him that. There is no conclusive evidence that she wasn't Ruby from the beginning of the episode. Of course that doesn't mean he didn't court the girl for Ruby to possess, but why would Ruby need him to do that? She just could of possessed any random girl. Sam said he opened up the devil's gate, that's probably how he got her out of hell, and after that she could of possessed anyone.

That's my take. I can't see Sam finding human beings for Ruby to possess. That would pretty much be a sign that he has gone bad.

[Legato]

Or Sam could of been lying to Dean when he told him that. There is no conclusive evidence that she wasn't Ruby from the beginning of the episode. Of course that doesn't mean he didn't court the girl for Ruby to possess, but why would Ruby need him to do that? She just could of possessed any random girl. Sam said he opened up the devil's gate, that's probably how he got her out of hell, and after that she could of possessed anyone.

I'm surprised Dean didn't return with any powers, Sam has powers and I was sure they wouldn't pass up a chance to give Dean some sort of power, but I guess not.

I really hope that Dean wasn't brought back to stop Sam because he's going to turn evil, we've already been through the "what if sam goes evil" thing several times. I also hope that we at least get some closure on lilith.

Same here. If Ruby could have found another body then who is to say Lilith didn't do the same aswell.

Im thinking Dean may have some tricks under his sleave that he doesn't know at the moment thanks to the Angel who saved him.

As Ruby is training Sam to control his powers the Angel that saved Dean from hell may have the same intentions and he may have given Dean a small sample of power the moment he pulled him out of hell.

[Legato]

Sam finding bodies for Ruby to possess? Neat. Hadn't thought about that. :biggrin:
I miss old Ruby too though.



It's possible that the angel is going to give Dean something after talking to him, (he tried approaching Dean before in the episode) or that Dean just doesn't know he has any powers.

That is my take on it. I just hope we wont see a Sam vs Dean in the near future.

[Atom_basher]

That's my take. I can't see Sam finding human beings for Ruby to possess. That would pretty much be a sign that he has gone bad.

seeing your brother ripped to shreds before your eyes doesn't make u sunny person, not only that Ruby helps him kill demons, so i see it as more of a means to an end, than going bad; not only that,. Is helping ruby posses a girl (especially when Ruby has helped him in the past and is in need of a new body), that far off from accepting the help of demon who is possesing a girl. I'm telling you, watch the episode again ad youll see where I'm coming from

[the_coldest_sun]

I'm surprised Dean didn't return with any powers, Sam has powers and I was sure they wouldn't pass up a chance to give Dean some sort of power, but I guess not.

I really hope Dean doesn't get any powers. That's one of the things I love about his character. Unlike Sam who left when he reached a certain age, Dean remained with his father and continued to train as his father taught him. He's his father's son, the bad-ass hunter who relies on his instincts, wit, and determination. A very human underdog.

Sam on the other hand, was the black sheep. He was never really determined to continue the life of a hunter. He split when he got the chance, trying to move on from all that craziness to lead a normal life. He didn't train constantly like Dean who was taking on cases solo before reuniting with his brother. But he was fed the blood of a devil as an infant which bestowed him with strange, powerful abilities.

Harnessing supernatural power is Sam's thing. Dean tries to carry on his father's legacy by battling evil the way his old man taught him. It would very much ruin that idea if they gave him angelic powers just for the sake of having the two brothers go at it like comic book characters. However, I do often compare the two like Superman (Sam) and Batman (Dean). Two men with the same goal but very different ways of accomplishing it.

[kalorama]

seeing your brother ripped to shreds before your eyes doesn't make u sunny person, not only that Ruby helps him kill demons, so i see it as more of a means to an end, than going bad; not only that,.

Not being a "sunny person" is a far cry for willingly participating in what amounts to human sacrifice.

Is helping ruby posses a girl (especially when Ruby has helped him in the past and is in need of a new body), that far off from accepting the help of demon who is possesing a girl.

Yes, it is.

[Atom_basher]

Not being a "sunny person" is a far cry for willingly participating in what amounts to human sacrifice.



Yes, it is.


Um, being possessed doesn't mean the person dies,(as seen in the 7 deadly sins episode) we've seen in the past people who have been possessed go on to live. the person only dies if the human body takes more damage than a human could. if they keep the body from being damaged, once ruby leaves it, the girl can stay alive. so its not human sacrifice at all.

[kalorama]

Um, being possessed doesn't mean the person dies,(as seen in the 7 deadly sins episode) we've seen in the past people who have been possessed go on to live. the person only dies if the human body takes more damage than a human could. if they keep the body from being damaged, once ruby leaves it, the girl can stay alive. so its not human sacrifice at all.

Yes, for all intents and purposes it is (thus "what amounts to human sacrifice):

(A) Given the kinds of activities Ruby involves herself in, the odds of her human host biting it are pretty high. It's not like she carefully avoids life threatening encounters. In fact, the only reason she's in a new body is because the old one was killed by Lilith.

(B) Even if she releases the host before it's killed, there's still the little issue of enslaving a person's body against their will and doing God knows what to their consciousness (esp. the emotional/psychological damage inflicted on their minds if they retain the memories of what their bodies did while they weren't in control).

[Lord of Denial]

Since the Big G is now involved how long until one Mr. Moringstar shows up?

[Legato]

Since the Big G is now involved how long until one Mr. Moringstar shows up?

We may probably catch a glimps of him in the middle portion of this season. Since a angel of the lord was introduced we would no doubt see a Fallen Angel make a appearance. Probably to try to influence Sam.

[Spidey-kid1]

Awesome, awesome episode tonight. Im glad to see an Angel finally show up, and so far, he looks pretty badass. The last two minutes of tonights episode is a perfect example of why this is one of my favorite shows.
The first two minutes were enough to cemement it. I loled like hell when Dean was stealing all the stuff from the gas station and stopped to steal a porn magazine after fliping through it and smiling. :biggrin:

God, this show is great.

[Lord of Denial]

We may probably catch a glimps of him in the middle portion of this season. Since a angel of the lord was introduced we would no doubt see a Fallen Angel make a appearance. Probably to try to influence Sam.

How do you do spoilers tags?

[Legato]

How do you do spoilers tags?

Kinda like this

[Lord of Denial]

From what I have read Lilith will spent most of this season trying to free a much, much bigger badass then herself from imprisonment

[Legato]

From what I have read Lilith will spent most of this season trying to free a much, much bigger badass then herself from imprisonment

Which would still mean she is the primary villain for the Winchesters. I think she could be connected into this whole angel thing in some manner.

[Lord of Denial]

Yeah, she still will be the main villain of this season, I was just saying that maybe the thing she is trying to free is Mr. Morningstar, as villain or counterpoint to God's angels in season 5

[Legato]

Yeah, she still will be the main villain of this season, I was just saying that maybe the thing she is trying to free is Mr. Morningstar, as villain or counterpoint to God's angels in season 5

Given the biblical connection to the name that could be a possibiity. Especially when it comes to her connection with Satan

[Chiasm]

Excellent first episode. Don't like the new Ruby though I like the concept of bringing Ruby back.

[Legato]

Excellent first episode. Don't like the new Ruby though I like the concept of bringing Ruby back.

I happen to miss the old Ruby but as long as Ruby is back I can forgive that Ruby has a new body, which may be temporary.

[Atom_basher]

old ruby was undoubtedly better, her line delivery was more confident.

[Legato]

old ruby was undoubtedly better, her line delivery was more confident.

Also the chemistry between her and Dean made Ruby tolerable. Doubt the new Ruby could pull it off.

[Chiasm]

Great news. Supernatural killed in the ratings last night. Killed being relative since this is the CW we are talking about. It took in over four million viewers which is up 33% from its premiere last year. It also took in close to the same amount as Smallville which is down drastically from its premiere last year.

I never thought we'd get a third season let alone four so I'm grateful for every episode. And this just makes me happier since it means I can maybe think about a fifth season if this keeps up.

http://hollywoodinsider.ew.com/2008/09/supernatural-fl.html

[Chiasm]

Speculation theory.

Castiel is angel but he's a fallen angel who pulled Dean out of hell for his own nefarious reasons. I can't see them going with a plot where Dean is some sort of actual holy warrior but I can see it if what I think is true.

[T'Jai]

Speculation theory.

Castiel is angel but he's a fallen angel who pulled Dean out of hell for his own nefarious reasons. I can't see them going with a plot where Dean is some sort of actual holy warrior but I can see it if what I think is true.course if he just says do this and walks that keeps in context with "urban fantasy" 'rules' where the PTB give us a little leg up and direction but don't really involve themselves too much...

[Legato]

Speculation theory.

Castiel is angel but he's a fallen angel who pulled Dean out of hell for his own nefarious reasons. I can't see them going with a plot where Dean is some sort of actual holy warrior but I can see it if what I think is true.

That could make sense, although maybe Castiel could be thare to possibly have Dean move towards a more righteous path.

Still it wouldn't surprise me if thare is a possibility that he is a Fallen Angel that is using Dean in a possible plot to overthrow Lucifer.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

Now this is how you start a new season. Lots of inside jokes and some bad ass scenes. If this episode is an indication of what is coming this season we will be in for a treat. But then again, we always have been.
Bobby is FN cool. I nearly pissed myself when he threw that holy water into Dean's face.

The new Ruby is not attractive at all. Thanks to CW for cutting the budget so that Katie Cassidy had to be let go.

I just hope to see 5 seasons. They can't stop this now. It has so much momentum and I seriously think it will remain that way.

[SPAfreak]

The new Ruby is not attractive at all. Thanks to CW for cutting the budget so that Katie Cassidy had to be let go.


The lighting in those scenes was really unflattering to everyone. At least let her get a scene where she doesn't have villain backlighting or shot like an easily forgotten one-night stand before you judge.

We also don't know if the body that Ruby is inhabiting wasn't already dying. For all we know she picked her up from an ICU or a crash or something. I'm not saying that it's likely, I'm just saying that it's the first episode of the season and we've just been given a lot of strings to tie together.

[Antonio B.]

Is Sam sleeping with Ruby or was that a different girl in the beginning of the episode?

[DonC]

I think it was the same girl. There was some brief discussion about whether or not he knew it was Ruby or if Ruby had possessed the girl yet.

[Athena Bast]

I dunno... one brother walking a demon sort of path the other walking an angel sort of path.

[marshal99]

I think it was the same girl. There was some brief discussion about whether or not he knew it was Ruby or if Ruby had possessed the girl yet.

yeah , we'll know in future episodes i guess. The girl at the beginning said her name was Krissy/Chrissy (?) , then by the end , she has become "Ruby".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeS7NJ3_mEg

[Atom_basher]

just looking at that clip its obvious it wasn't ruby yet. i mean seriously, the creators of this show are GOOD. i doubt they would resort to such cheap misdirection to make us think it wasn't ruby in that first scene.

[T'Jai]

just looking at that clip its obvious it wasn't ruby yet. i mean seriously, the creators of this show are GOOD. i doubt they would resort to such cheap misdirection to make us think it wasn't ruby in that first scene.
I'm going to say it was, remember Sam didn't know Dean was back and Ruby would recognize both Dean and Bobby and know that they thought she was back in hell... she also knows Dean was EXTREMELY uncomfortable with Sam being around and working with her...

[kalorama]

just looking at that clip its obvious it wasn't ruby yet. i mean seriously, the creators of this show are GOOD. i doubt they would resort to such cheap misdirection to make us think it wasn't ruby in that first scene.

Misdirection is a common storytelling technique, esp. in mystery/suspense stories. There's nothing "cheap" about it. And the point wasn't to convince us that it wasn't Ruby, it was to convince Dean it wasn't Ruby.

[kane]

The first two minutes were enough to cemement it. I loled like hell when Dean was stealing all the stuff from the gas station and stopped to steal a porn magazine after fliping through it and smiling. :biggrin:

God, this show is great.


And it was not a simple porn magazine, it was "busty asian beauties" again :biggrin:

[tricksterpup]

Harnessing supernatural power is Sam's thing. Dean tries to carry on his father's legacy by battling evil the way his old man taught him. It would very much ruin that idea if they gave him angelic powers just for the sake of having the two brothers go at it like comic book characters. However, I do often compare the two like Superman (Sam) and Batman (Dean). Two men with the same goal but very different ways of accomplishing it.
I think you may be off on this. Good theory but off all together.

Speculation theory.

Castiel is angel but he's a fallen angel who pulled Dean out of hell for his own nefarious reasons. I can't see them going with a plot where Dean is some sort of actual holy warrior but I can see it if what I think is true.

I think this is the sole reason why Dean was brought back and to save Sam and prevent him from leading the Demons as they had wanted. Ruby is slowly manipulating him like the original Demon wanted to do. This is God's plan to stop him and sent an Angel down to pull him out of hell. I personally think this was all thought out from the very beginning for the series.


By the way, i loved the episode. It was fantastic.

[Ottmeister X]

This show still ranks as one of the "top shows you aren't watching". I try to turn people onto it when I can. I think a lot of people think because it's on the CW that it's probably just a teenage male Charmed. So much, much, much better.

[the_coldest_sun]

I think you may be off on this. Good theory but off all together.

I think this is the sole reason why Dean was brought back and to save Sam and prevent him from leading the Demons as they had wanted. Ruby is slowly manipulating him like the original Demon wanted to do. This is God's plan to stop him and sent an Angel down to pull him out of hell. I personally think this was all thought out from the very beginning for the series.

By the way, i loved the episode. It was fantastic.

I don't disagree with you there, and I never stated that I didn't think Sam could go dark with his powers and Dean would have to stop him or turn him back. Honestly, I very much see them going in this direction. What I am opposed to is the writers/creators giving Dean superpowers to even the playing field with his brother.

Dean was always against it. He didn't want his brother using his powers by chance it would lure him to the dark-side. He was against using Ruby's help because demons by nature are manipulative and only cause trouble for them (Their dad's deal with Yellow-Eyes, Dean's own deal, etc). He was against using the Doctor's immortality serum. He wants to handle business naturally, humanly, without the use of magic or powers. He told Sam that if he was going down, he wanted to go down fighting like how their father taught them.

Even if the writers/creators give him angelic powers (which Dean may actually not be opposed to since its the opposite of the demonic stuff he shunned), I still feel it goes against what the character is about and stands for.

It's like giving Batman superpowers because he has to stop evil Superman. It also reminds me of when Uwe Boll read the script for Alone In The Dark and questioned by the main character didn't have superpowers to battle the monsters. He wanted a flashy showdown and I hope the guys behind Supernatural don't copout for the same. But that's me.

[tricksterpup]

Even if the writers/creators give him angelic powers (which Dean may actually not be opposed to since its the opposite of the demonic stuff he shunned), I still feel it goes against what the character is about and stands for.
.

But who says they are giving him powers.. we will have to wait and see. But i doubt it. I think he is just a normal person who is working with an Angel.

[the_coldest_sun]

But who says they are giving him powers.. we will have to wait and see. But i doubt it. I think he is just a normal person who is working with an Angel.

That's why I said "if". Its the second word in that sentence. I was just commenting on the possibility of him obtaining powers. People posted comments before my response hoping to see that happen, and I was just putting my two cents in. That's all.

[Kaos]

BAM! The Winchester boys are back. Sick show, had me gripped the whole way through. Got no problems at all. Feeling the way they're going with the Dean, but I have a sneaking suspicion that the job that Caziel gives him will put him at odds with Sam..I can just see it happening...I mean I hope not. But hey drama is great television.

[Lord of Denial]

I hope Samn is not sleeping with Ruby, that would make him kind of a rapist.

[tjarvis]

I think Castiel (??) is playing Dean and like a few others on this board speculate, is actually a fallen angel. Did you notice that his wings were black when he revealed them to Dean?

Lucifer is very much the wild card in this whole mix. Last season they revealed that the demons have no idea where he is, and some even think he's a myth while others still worship him like a God.

Sam's destiny is somehow linked to a plan by Lucifer I think, but he's been going off the path since Dean died, and they're going to use Dean via Castiel to nudge Sam back where they want him.

Otherwise it's just too obvious for it be holy Dean vs. demon Sam. There has to be a twist here somewhere.

[Samuraixsithlord]

I think Castiel (??) is playing Dean and like a few others on this board speculate, is actually a fallen angel. Did you notice that his wings were black when he revealed them to Dean?

Those weren't his real wings, they where the shadows of his wings. If he had shown Dean his real wings he would have burned the eyes out of his head.

Lucifer is very much the wild card in this whole mix. Last season they revealed that the demons have no idea where he is, and some even think he's a myth while others still worship him like a God.

I'd hate for them to portray Lucifer as a bad guy. I'm a history major and i've read alot about the original incarnation of Lucifer and he's not a bad guy. He tempted mortals sin because that was his purpose, to tempt mortals into sin and test their faith. He was a "fallen" angel not because he fell out of Gods favor, but because he walked amongst humans on Earth, thus he "fell" from heaven, all on the command of God

[tjarvis]

Those weren't his real wings, they where the shadows of his wings. If he had shown Dean his real wings he would have burned the eyes out of his head.



I'd hate for them to portray Lucifer as a bad guy. I'm a history major and i've read alot about the original incarnation of Lucifer and he's not a bad guy. He tempted mortals sin because that was his purpose, to tempt mortals into sin and test their faith. He was a "fallen" angel not because he fell out of Gods favor, but because he walked amongst humans on Earth, thus he "fell" from heaven, all on the command of God

Fair enough on the wings portion, but I still think there's some symbolistic imagery in the fact that his wings were shadows.

And it certainly looks like Lucifer is being set up as the ultimate bad guy in the Supernatural verse, he is the God of the demons. That doesn't bode well for heroic credentials. You could spin it off into him fulfilling God's wishes, but he I doubt he ever goes higher than anti-hero. The most popular portrayl of Lucifer is as the personification of pride, the most common of the seven deadly sins. The futility of his rebellion against God matches the futility of pride in general.

We'll see how this goes, but I'm guessing we don't seen the Morningstar until the fifth, and most likely final season of the show.

[Samuraixsithlord]

And it certainly looks like Lucifer is being set up as the ultimate bad guy in the Supernatural verse, he is the God of the demons. That doesn't bode well for heroic credentials. You could spin it off into him fulfilling God's wishes, but he I doubt he ever goes higher than anti-hero. The most popular portrayl of Lucifer is as the personification of pride, the most common of the seven deadly sins. The futility of his rebellion against God matches the futility of pride in general.

I could see him portrayed as a neutral figure, who doesn't care about angels or demons or the politics of heaven or hell.

Plus it's never been said that he is the "god" of Demons. No Demon has ever met him, and he never seems to play a role in their politcs or what not. He just seems to be some sort of cult hero to them.

I just don't want to see him going around plotting the destruction of Earth like some cliche evil villian, which will probably be what happens.

[tjarvis]

Oh, and one more reason why I think the angel is a fallen one. His name is Castiel. Which means the root of his name is Cast, as in cast from heaven. That's the kind of thing writers go ahead and come up with that makes them feel clever.

[Kaos]

Oh, and one more reason why I think the angel is a fallen one. His name is Castiel. Which means the root of his name is Cast, as in cast from heaven. That's the kind of thing writers go ahead and come up with that makes them feel clever.

Look at the big brain on Braaaad.



(wish I thought of that)

[AlistairCrane]

This show has the perfect blend of comedy, drama, horror, and action. It's the best show on the CW and its increasing ratings make me feel good about its future.

[tricksterpup]

I hope Samn is not sleeping with Ruby, that would make him kind of a rapist.

Oh, i am sure he is getting a piece of that..

and well you know, if he is falling into Evil.. well doesn't that last comment say.. who cares?

[Samuraixsithlord]

just because sam is learning to use his powers doesn't mean he's evil.

[Legato]

just because sam is learning to use his powers doesn't mean he's evil.

From what I gather from the comments it isn't because Sam has powers that he could possibly turn evil. It is that Ruby could be influencing him to possibly commit acts that seem questionable.

So it is mostly a evil by association kind of thing.

[Atom_basher]

WOW no one has commented on this episode? man this was an amazing episode, it really raised the stakes and explains why dean was brought back, when it was revealed it was Lilitith freeing Satan i got kinda goosebumpy. also seeing Meg back made me realize how much i loved season 1.

[Sean Whitmore]

I do prefer Old Ruby over NuRuby though. I wish they would have been able to afford Katie Cassidy again this season.

I miss old Ruby too though.

Don't like the new Ruby though I like the concept of bringing Ruby back.

I happen to miss the old Ruby but as long as Ruby is back I can forgive that Ruby has a new body, which may be temporary.

old ruby was undoubtedly better, her line delivery was more confident.

Wow, this is a lot different than the Season 3 thread.


SEAN

[kalorama]

Let me add my thumbs down on "the new Ruby" to the pile.

[Kaos]

I liked old Ruby...

[AlistairCrane]

I like "Nuby", as we'll call her. You guys only like Katie Cassidy because she's "hot", but the girl couldn't act to save her life.

Thumbs up to Nuby!!

[Rabid Trekkie]

I'd hate for them to portray Lucifer as a bad guy. I'm a history major and i've read alot about the original incarnation of Lucifer and he's not a bad guy. He tempted mortals sin because that was his purpose, to tempt mortals into sin and test their faith. He was a "fallen" angel not because he fell out of Gods favor, but because he walked amongst humans on Earth, thus he "fell" from heaven, all on the command of God

Actually, according to modern historians, that's the origin of Satan. The origin of Lucifer is a bit different, starting in Isaiah. Of course what the original writers really thought may be something vastly different. In fact according to Judaic Scholars, the first mention of Lucifer in Isaiah is a metaphor about a Babylonian king, which is almost a mirror to the Christian belief that the Babylonian king was a metaphore to describe Lucifer. Apparently in Judaic thought the comparison between Satan and Lucifer is due in large part to the book of Enoch.

Which is all really secondary considering that the writers of Supernatural seem to be taking a more Christian route, though with occult ideas thrown in for even more creepiness.

Wish I could have seen the first episode (no power that week) but the second episode totally rocked.

[Atom_basher]

I like "Nuby", as we'll call her. You guys only like Katie Cassidy because she's "hot", but the girl couldn't act to save her life.

Thumbs up to Nuby!!

Nope, i liked old ruby, because of her acting, she delivered her lines with such attitude, and poison

[Johnny_Luck]

Old ruby was okay, but Bellah was where it was at last season and I hate how that turned out.

[AlistairCrane]

Old ruby was okay, but Bellah was where it was at last season and I hate how that turned out.

I agree----loved Bela and it's sad that she doesn't get to come back this season. :(

[G. Wayne]

I've watched the episode 2 times now, and im convinced it wasn't ruby from the beginning. and i definitively think Sam is finding chicks for ruby to inhabit. ...

No comments on Ghost Meg calling out Sam on this?

Nope, i liked old ruby, because of her acting, she delivered her lines with such attitude, and poison

My thoughts as well, Old Ruby struck me as having good chemistry with the Winchesters. The verbal sparring between her and Dean was great stuff.

[Legato]

Old ruby was okay, but Bellah was where it was at last season and I hate how that turned out.

Hate to say it but if Bellah weren't such a backstabbing bitch towards Sam and Dean then they could have saved her from the Hellhounds. But her stealing the colt was the last straw.

Yet I do believe that Dean may not be the only person that Castiel freed from hell. He probably did the same for Bellah but didn't bother to inform Dean about it.

Or Lucifer could free her in a way to blackmail her into joining his crusade. Who is to say Castiel is the only one that is able to free a person out of hell.

[Lord of Denial]

Hate to say it but if Bellah weren't such a backstabbing bitch towards Sam and Dean then they could have saved her from the Hellhounds. But her stealing the colt was the last straw.

Yet I do believe that Dean may not be the only person that Castiel freed from hell. He probably did the same for Bellah but didn't bother to inform Dean about it.

Or Lucifer could free her in a way to blackmail her into joining his crusade. Who is to say Castiel is the only one that is able to free a person out of hell.

Didn't Bobby say all Angels had the power to free someone from hell?

I am thinking Lucifer, the lord of hell would have it as well.

[DonC]

Can we get Ghost Meg back? She was much cooler than New Ruby.

[Azure Owl]

Wow, this is a lot different than the Season 3 thread.


SEAN

Don't be surprised. I've seen people saying they miss Bela too. Last year thay coudn't wait for the Hellhound to tear her apart.

[Atom_basher]

I agree----loved Bela and it's sad that she doesn't get to come back this season. :(

Bela was good, but NO reoccuring female, was better than Meg from season one

[kalorama]

Can we get Ghost Meg back? She was much cooler than New Ruby.

I was thinking the same thing while I was watching the episode.

Obviously New Ruby hasn't gotten a lot of screen time yet, so maybe she just hasn't had a chance to show her stuff, but she just comes across as kinda dull.

[kalorama]

No comments on Ghost Meg calling out Sam on this?

Well, she didn't actually say Dean had helped Ruby find new bodies, just that he was willing to giver her a pass on it as long as she was useful to him.

[Legato]

Well, she didn't actually say Dean had helped Ruby find new bodies, just that he was willing to giver her a pass on it as long as she was useful to him.

I didn't really believe in the possibility that Sam has been going dark but when Meg called Sam on assisting Ruby he had a I dont give a crap expression while Dean was actually guilty over that he didn't save Meg when she was possessed.

Seeing Henrickson makes me wish that he had survived as he was such a cool character.

I was a little scared for Bobby when he was cornered by the two little girl ghost.

[AlistairCrane]

Bela was good, but NO reoccuring female, was better than Meg from season one

Meg was my favourite, followed by Alona Tal's character in season two.

[Johnny_Luck]

Don't be surprised. I've seen people saying they miss Bela too. Last year thay coudn't wait for the Hellhound to tear her apart.

Not true. Bela had a lot of support last year by people all over the place. Ruby was very interesting and drew attention at the beginning and then in the middle kinda a few people. Bela really didn't get the kind of hate that you're talking about though from here or other places.

[Legato]

Not true. Bela had a lot of support last year by people all over the place. Ruby was very interesting and drew attention at the beginning and then in the middle kinda a few people. Bela really didn't get the kind of hate that you're talking about though from here or other places.

Bela had a kinda of independence whare while she isn't a hunter she is capable of surviving in a Universe whare supernatural elements could rip people like her apart. She was able to match wits with the Winchesters or any demon hunter she comes across.

In the beginning she did have a good fanbase while Ruby was judged as the mary sue of the series so to speak. Now it seems that ever since Ruby has another body the Ruby love starts flow in with comments on how they missed the old Ruby

[Atom_basher]

Bela had a kinda of independence whare while she isn't a hunter she is capable of surviving in a Universe whare supernatural elements could rip people like her apart. She was able to match wits with the Winchesters or any demon hunter she comes across.

In the beginning she did have a good fanbase while Ruby was judged as the mary sue of the series so to speak. Now it seems that ever since Ruby has another body the Ruby love starts flow in with comments on how they missed the old Ruby


the saying "you dont know what you got till its gone" comes to mind

[ForeverTaskmaster]

I like "Nuby", as we'll call her. You guys only like Katie Cassidy because she's "hot", but the girl couldn't act to save her life.

Hmm, did you miss the final episode of season 3 ? In that episode Katie Cassidy showed she could act when she was possessed by Lilith and was "LilithRuby"

Man, episode 2 was an intense episode and the mentioning of Lucifer and the apocalypse got me more excited than I already am. Seems to me we will be heading for an apocalypse and a big showdown with Lucifer. That sounds so cool.

Btw, Bobby's kids were creepy and ugly too.
And yeah, 5 dollars for a gallon fuel is the apocalypse.

The tone has been set. I wonder who will count the number of seals being broken.

And a big question occurs. Why was Lilith afraid of Sam ?
Is Sam the son of Lucifer by any chance ?
So many questions, so much time to wait for answers.

[AlistairCrane]

Hmm, did you miss the final episode of season 3 ? In that episode Katie Cassidy showed she could act when she was possessed by Lilith and was "LilithRuby"



No I certainly didn't. Those were perhaps her worst episodes.

Cassidy's nothing but a pretty face. She should stick to modeling.

[Sean Whitmore]

Good episode. While the ghosts' condemnations were obviously a little overly harsh, it was still an incredibly somber reminder that this show's heroes don't always succeed.

I'm keeping an open mind about Lucifer and the rest, but I'm wary. The show's done a good job of creating its own mythology so far; I'd hate to see that take a backseat to the typical God vs the Devil fare.

I'm hoping there's more to next week's episode than the preview indicated. Dean was already given the "you could change the past but then everyone you saved will die" choice in the genie episode.


SEAN

[Ronald Bryan]

"Are You There God? It's Me, Dean Winchester" was a great episode, just from the title alone. But also bringing back characters to haunt the brothers, and Dean realizing what he's in was a nice set up for the season. Last episode was how Dean got back, this one was about the future. And it's all still dealing with Lilith.

[IamtheRock3]

Good episode. While the ghosts' condemnations were obviously a little overly harsh, it was still an incredibly somber reminder that this show's heroes don't always succeed.

I'm keeping an open mind about Lucifer and the rest, but I'm wary. The show's done a good job of creating its own mythology so far; I'd hate to see that take a backseat to the typical God vs the Devil fare.

I'm hoping there's more to next week's episode than the preview indicated. Dean was already given the "you could change the past but then everyone you saved will die" choice in the genie episode.


SEAN


to be fair lucifer and the Demons having faith been floating around sense last season

and the name Lilith does have bibical overtones

[Sean Whitmore]

to be fair lucifer and the Demons having faith been floating around sense last season

and the name Lilith does have bibical overtones

True, it's not new to this season, but it's now being brought front-and-center.


SEAN

[Rabid Trekkie]

Good episode. While the ghosts' condemnations were obviously a little overly harsh, it was still an incredibly somber reminder that this show's heroes don't always succeed.

I'm keeping an open mind about Lucifer and the rest, but I'm wary. The show's done a good job of creating its own mythology so far; I'd hate to see that take a backseat to the typical God vs the Devil fare.

I'm hoping there's more to next week's episode than the preview indicated. Dean was already given the "you could change the past but then everyone you saved will die" choice in the genie episode.

SEAN

If anything I think, at least in this season, it will be God vs. Lilith if anything. But I doubt we'll actually get to that. For one in the most recent episode they went enough away from actual religion to establish this into the show's own mythology (angels and demons dying from fighting each other is outside of most mainstream thinking in Judeo-Christian circles as is Lucifer being locked away) and also if the show does decide to show God in any kind of positive way, it'll be a "The Lord helps those who help themselves" kind of thing. So far the storylines have all been how all this evil stuff affects humanity and humans reacting to it. I think the show will keep that tone and be more how humans overcome evil without getting into anything too much like a sermon at church.

[marshal99]

I like "Nuby", as we'll call her. You guys only like Katie Cassidy because she's "hot", but the girl couldn't act to save her life.

Thumbs up to Nuby!!

"Nuby" is much worse , as mentioned , the old Ruby had more chemistry with the guys. This new Ruby is just weak , talks weakly , behaves nothing like the old one and is just dull as dishwater.

In the first episode , it was mentioned that even Lilith wasn't half as powerful as the guy who got dean out , so why don't the angel just deal with lilith himself. What's the point of getting dean out in the first place ? Dean is a faithless fratboy who doesn't have any power whatsoever in the first place.

[T'Jai]

"Nuby" is much worse , as mentioned , the old Ruby had more chemistry with the guys. This new Ruby is just weak , talks weakly , behaves nothing like the old one and is just dull as dishwater.

In the first episode , it was mentioned that even Lilith wasn't half as powerful as the guy who got dean out , so why don't the angel just deal with lilith himself. What's the point of getting dean out in the first place ? Dean is a faithless fratboy who doesn't have any power whatsoever in the first place.
Actually classical heroic story telling often uses the "Flawed" or "Disbelieving" hero. It's the whole god puts the fate of humanity in the embodiment of our flaws to prove the perfection of his creation...

[Blueferret]

Here's another point that hasn't been brought up. If all of the Demons we've seen so far this season are scared s@#$less by Castiello, what/who is strong enough to take down 6 angels in one week?

[Rabid Trekkie]

Here's another point that hasn't been brought up. If all of the Demons we've seen so far this season are scared s@#$less by Castiello, what/who is strong enough to take down 6 angels in one week?

Probably some of Lilith's lieutenants. So far the only person who has given her pause has been Sam because of his demon influence powers. Could be that Lilith's most trusted henchmen are almost on the same level of demon power as she is, and considering how all the other demons treat her (almost same level of fear as they give angels if Ruby is an indication) it could be they could stand toe-to-toe with angels.

[AlistairCrane]

"Nuby" is much worse , as mentioned , the old Ruby had more chemistry with the guys. This new Ruby is just weak , talks weakly , behaves nothing like the old one and is just dull as dishwater.



Not true at all. Nuby is better than Cassidy in every possible way.

[Kaos]

Not true at all. Nuby is better than Cassidy in every possible way.

meh...she sucks. they both do. But at least Cassidy was hot.

[AlistairCrane]

meh...she sucks. they both do. But at least Cassidy was hot.

No she wasn't.

[AlistairCrane]

She's a generic blonde. There's no difference between her and any other blonde actress. They're all the same.

[Kaos]

She's a generic blonde. There's no difference between her and any other blonde actress. They're all the same.

Doesn't make her un-hot g. Just means theres a lot of hot blonde chicks running around in hollywood.

[AlistairCrane]

Doesn't make her un-hot g. Just means theres a lot of hot blonde chicks running around in hollywood.

She's not hot though. She looks like a pre-pubescent child. But, diff'rent strokes...

[kalorama]

She's not hot though. She looks like a pre-pubescent child. But, diff'rent strokes...

So, in other words, she's not hot because she doesn't have giant boobs?

[AlistairCrane]

So, in other words, she's not hot because she doesn't have giant boobs?

She's not hot because she's a cookie cutter blonde.

[Legato]

She's not hot because she's a cookie cutter blonde.

Ok that makes perfect sense now. You hate blondes or something?

[AlistairCrane]

Ok that makes perfect sense now. You hate blondes or something?

Blondes are just so average and expected. Now if you found a woman like Freema Agyeman attractive, I'd be interested.

[tangentman]

Personally, I thought Cassidy worked as Ruby. She brought the right amount of snarkiness and ambiguous menace to the role. Of course, one of my longstanding complaints about Supernatural is the "fratboy" vibe of that universe. Their world is definitely a "Man's World", so I'm not at all surprised that strong female characters are few and far between. The season premiere demonstrated that--replacement "Nuby", maiming the interesting psychic--and the 2nd episode followed suit (female Hunter killed in opener). Women pretty much occupy Supernatural as victims-of-the-week or "one-episode-stands".

[Rabid Trekkie]

Blondes are just so average and expected. Now if you found a woman like Freema Agyeman attractive, I'd be interested.

What if you find both attractive? I mean just because someone finds what you consider "generic blondes" attractive doesn't mean they can't also be attractive to other types.

[kalorama]

She's not hot because she's a cookie cutter blonde.

That's not what you said:

She's not hot though. She looks like a pre-pubescent child. But, diff'rent strokes...

Unless you equate being blond with looking like a child, there must be something else to it.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

She's not hot because she's a cookie cutter blonde.
If Katie Cassidy is your definition of cookie cutter blonde then I must be doing something wrong. I need to find a cookie cutter blonde.

[SnowTrooper]

Whats wrong with cookie cutter blondes? I would kill for a cookie cutter blonde.

Anyway, I'm loving the new season of Supernatural so far. The new stuff about Angels has gotten my complete attention.

[G. Wayne]

Katie Cassidy is not a cookie cutter blonde. Hefner goes after cookie cutter blondes.

Here's another point that hasn't been brought up. If all of the Demons we've seen so far this season are scared s@#$less by Castiello, what/who is strong enough to take down 6 angels in one week?

Castiel mentioned they don't have the demons replenishing numbers. It's possible stronger demons came into play, but I took it that the angels that were taken down were outnumbered at the time.

[SnowTrooper]

Castiel mentioned they don't have the demons replenishing numbers. It's possible stronger demons came into play, but I took it that the angels that were taken down were outnumbered at the time.

Most demons didnt even know that they were dealing with Angels a couple episodes ago. The demons in the diner had no idea what they were fighting, and they got their asses whooped. If 6 Angels are dead I highly doubt a bunch of demon grunts were able to bring them down. I think only an uber demon like Lillith or Yellow Eyes would be able to take down an Angel.

Plus, you gotta figure that the Angels werent killed on Earth. If they were fighting in possessed bodies, the Angel could just show his true form and burn the eyes out of the human vessel. They were probably fighting on a different plane, I dont know if this will be the case, but its pretty cool to think about.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

I am wondering what kind of demons there are still walking around if 6 angels have been killed in one week.
How badass can the Supernatural universe be ? Man, the episodes can't come fast enough.

[Lord of Denial]

I think it is a situation like The Ancients vs Wraith on Stargate Atlantis.

The Angels are vastly more powerful but there are very few and The demon's even those like Yellow Eyes pale in comparison but the numbers difference is so great even superior power is not enough over the long haul.

[G. Wayne]

I picked up the complete first 2 seasons (extras and everything) about a 2 weeks ago at Target for $18.99 each. I'm going through the first season now with a friend, neither of us have seen seasons 1 or 2, and we just watched the mutant shapeshifter episode, which I think is number 6 or so.

Most demons didnt even know that they were dealing with Angels a couple episodes ago. The demons in the diner had no idea what they were fighting, and they got their asses whooped. If 6 Angels are dead I highly doubt a bunch of demon grunts were able to bring them down. I think only an uber demon like Lillith or Yellow Eyes would be able to take down an Angel.

Plus, you gotta figure that the Angels werent killed on Earth. If they were fighting in possessed bodies, the Angel could just show his true form and burn the eyes out of the human vessel. They were probably fighting on a different plane, I dont know if this will be the case, but its pretty cool to think about.

True. The demon Sam found in the diner still had a lot of fight left in her after she was blinded though. I wonder what the demons fear more, their superiors or Angels?

[Atom_basher]

ABSOLUTELY amazing fantastic episode, probably one of the top 5 episodes in supernatural history

[Blueferret]

ABSOLUTELY amazing fantastic episode, probably one of the top 5 episodes in supernatural history

Agreed. This show get better and better each week.

[Saturn Girl]

This season has been amazing, each episode better than the last. Jensen Ackles really hit one out of the park in this one, really stellar work. This will go down as one of the top episodes of the entire series, IMO.

[Atom_basher]

i would go as far as to say, finding out their mom was a hunter is one of the best twists ive seen on tv in a LONG time, it almost makes the brothers even more badass because its REALLY in their blood

[the_coldest_sun]

It was really heartbreaking to watch the scene where Mary says to Dean she wants raise a family someday and wishes her children will never have to endure growing up in a hunter lifestyle. Dean couldn't really do or say anything but just take it, and you could feel the emotion he was expressing through his face alone. That actually teared me up.

I hated him when he was on Smallville, but Jensen Ackles has been absolutely fantastic on Supernatural. His character has had it extremely rough physically and emotionally and Ackles is amazing at portraying the many sides of Dean Winchester.

[WyldCard4]

I love this show, just going to give a few comments on topics going on in this thread.

I suspect that the six dead angels died either because of bad luck, striking at major demon strongholds, or against some united demon army under Lilith, I hope one of the first two as I hate it when the demons are shown in force on this show but there is evidence that her army is quite large and depending on the size of His army it may be enough to inflict such losses.

Also surprise attacks could acount for it, angels tracked down and killed.

I doubt that Sam tracks down bodies and feeds them to Ruby, that isn't dark behavior, that is serial killer behavior which goes against all he and his brother stand for.

I doubt Ruby would try and get him to do that, she is smart enough to keep her body hunts quiet.

[Rabid Trekkie]

It was really heartbreaking to watch the scene where Mary says to Dean she wants raise a family someday and wishes her children will never have to endure growing up in a hunter lifestyle. Dean couldn't really do or say anything but just take it, and you could feel the emotion he was expressing through his face alone. That actually teared me up.

I hated him when he was on Smallville, but Jensen Ackles has been absolutely fantastic on Supernatural. His character has had it extremely rough physically and emotionally and Ackles is amazing at portraying the many sides of Dean Winchester.

I have to agree. When I saw Ackles on Smallville I really didn't believe he could act his way out of a paper bag. Don't know whether he needs a strong director or if the powers that be on Smallville wanted him to play it that way (like Lucas in the prequels) but either way he's like a completely different actor.

I don't want the show to end, but if/when Supernatural is over I really hope we see more of Mr. Ackles for a long time.

[Kaos]

Pretty funny to see how their dad used to be. Worlds away from the hunter that he became.

[AlistairCrane]

Great episode last night. Now we know for sure why the yellow-eyed demon killed Mary, and I have a feeling his master plan for Sam and the kids will come into play later this season.

I've loved Jensen Ackles way back since he played Eric Brady on Days of Our Lives.

[The Real Nemo]

As far as the angels being killed goes, don't forget that Lilith still has the "fixed" Colt. That could very well have something to do with it.

[G. Wayne]

...mom's a babe! Oooh, I'm going to Hell. Again.

:biggrin:

[Legato]

...mom's a babe! Oooh, I'm going to Hell. Again.

:biggrin:

Favorite Dean quote of the Season I'd say.

It seems we know whare Papa Winchester got his hunter training from. I knew thare was more to Mary than the early seasons let on but her being a hunter was unexpected

[T'Jai]

Favorite Dean quote of the Season I'd say.

It seems we know whare Papa Winchester got his hunter training from. I knew thare was more to Mary than the early seasons let on but her being a hunter was unexpected
Don't think so Mary was dead before Jon became a hunter remember it was her death that led her down that path...

[Ronald Bryan]

Dean is so awesome.

And it was cool seeing how the boys got their names, and the fact that Sam and Dean have a family history of hunters they never knew about was cool. The best was Dean getting the colt to try to kill Yellow Eyed Demon.

The question is, was everything that happened to his family because of Dean, or would it have happened anyway as Castiel said? Or did he send Dean back because he had to in order to get Dean and Sam to be hunters?

[Legato]

Dean is so awesome.

And it was cool seeing how the boys got their names, and the fact that Sam and Dean have a family history of hunters they never knew about was cool. The best was Dean getting the colt to try to kill Yellow Eyed Demon.

The question is, was everything that happened to his family because of Dean, or would it have happened anyway as Castiel said? Or did he send Dean back because he had to in order to get Dean and Sam to be hunters?

He probably did it to see if Dean could find any clues as to what YED's master plan involving Sam is.

That episode alone showed how evil YED actually is, IMO he is probably a better villain than Lilith.

[G. Wayne]

...was everything that happened to his family because of Dean, or would it have happened anyway as Castiel said? Or did he send Dean back because he had to in order to get Dean and Sam to be hunters?

It certainly does seem that due to Castiel's intervention, Dean brought his mother to YED's attention (didn't Castiel call him Azazel?) and started the events that lead to the deaths of his grandparents and him and Sam becoming Hunters.

[Legato]

It certainly does seem that due to Castiel's intervention, Dean brought his mother to YED's attention (didn't Castiel call him Azazel?) and started the events that lead to the deaths of his grandparents and him and Sam becoming Hunters.

When putting it that way I do wonder how would Sam had reacted if he had known about that in some way.

[Winterwolf]

As far as the angels being killed goes, don't forget that Lilith still has the "fixed" Colt. That could very well have something to do with it.

I wasn't aware that Lilith had the "fixed" Colt. I thought the buyer that Bella sold it to was still anonymous. I must have missed that part last season.

I also agree that Azael is a better villian than Lilith...well Lilith seems more powerful, Azael looks to be a better planer and more devious.

[Legato]

I also agree that Azael is a better villian than Lilith...well Lilith seems more powerful, Azael looks to be a better planer and more devious.

Especially to the point whare not even the angels themselves could figure out what YED's master plan is.

[Winterwolf]

Especially to the point whare not even the angels themselves could figure out what YED's master plan is.

To be fair though...we really haven't seen as much of Lilith as we have seen of Azazel.

[Legato]

To be fair though...we really haven't seen as much of Lilith as we have seen of Azazel.

That is true, and with Lilith being one of the eldest of demons Im sure we could expect something from her.

Im getting this vibe that things wont look too good for Bobby this season. I could even see him die just so that Sam could completly awaken his powers to it's full potential.

[marshal99]

All the hunters we have seen on the show are kind of useless anyway against some of the supernatural forces they faced , Bobby might as well die. It's not like Sam and Dean needs the old fart anyway , he's just another one of the plot device that this series used to get sam and dean out of trouble anyway. If he's gone , the boys will just find another plot device to get them out of the fix next.

[Winterwolf]

That is true, and with Lilith being one of the eldest of demons Im sure we could expect something from her.

Im getting this vibe that things wont look too good for Bobby this season. I could even see him die just so that Sam could completly awaken his powers to it's full potential.

I could see that happening. I kinda like Bobby though so i hope it doesn't :smile:

[marshal99]

I wonder where does the trickster comes into this bibical god/angel/demon/lucifer thing - from his supernatural showings , the trickster is pretty much the most powerful being in the supernatural universe like a god.
Seemingly can't be killed , can create anything out of thin air , be it vengeful spirit , alien abduction or aligators in the sewers and can bend time and reality to his whims at will.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

What an awesome Back To The Future episode. Never would have thought that Mama Winchester was the initial hunter. This probably means we are gonna see an episode in which John becomes a hunter. That would be very cool.

The episode raises a lot of questions. For example, with which demons can you make a deal and with which you can't ?
Is Mama Winchester in hell ? Why wasn't she freed by an angel ?
Where is John now ? It's still not clear where he is , but an angel could have freed him as well. Why was Dean freed ? Will Dean tell Sam what happened ? Are there more demon killing weapons than the knife and the colt ? Etc etc.

One thing is for sure. This is one of the best episodes of the whole run. I hope the momentum can be kept until the end of season 5. I hope the ratings improve even more so that the budget increases.

[the_coldest_sun]

What an awesome Back To The Future episode. Never would have thought that Mama Winchester was the initial hunter. This probably means we are gonna see an episode in which John becomes a hunter. That would be very cool.

The episode raises a lot of questions. For example, with which demons can you make a deal and with which you can't ?
Is Mama Winchester in hell ? Why wasn't she freed by an angel ?
Where is John now ? It's still not clear where he is , but an angel could have freed him as well. Why was Dean freed ? Will Dean tell Sam what happened ? Are there more demon killing weapons than the knife and the colt ? Etc etc.

One thing is for sure. This is one of the best episodes of the whole run. I hope the momentum can be kept until the end of season 5. I hope the ratings improve even more so that the budget increases.

It's somewhat unclear what happened to Mary and John Winchester's spirits, although one could say they are rested after dealing with "unfinished business" that ghosts seem to stick around for. Mary remained in their home in Lawrence to protect it against the evil spirits that haunted it, until she reunited with her sons. It appears she "sacrificed" herself to destroy the evil (kind of like what that kid did in the Ghostfacers episode).

John Winchester was released from Hell when the Demongate opened in Season 2's finale. After helping his sons finally take down Yellow-Eyes, he disappeared. So either he's in Heaven (now that we know it exists) or is nonexistent altogether.

[Legato]

I could see that happening. I kinda like Bobby though so i hope it doesn't :smile:

Same here, if this series survives long enough then I hope that Bobby is one of the few veteran Hunters that manages to survive once the series reaches it's ending.

[AlistairCrane]

Oh, speaking of Days of Our Lives...

Jensen Ackles is not the only one on Supernatural with a Days connection. The actor who plays Bobby, Jim Beaver, used to play Father Jansen on the soap.

[the_coldest_sun]

Oh, speaking of Days of Our Lives...

Jensen Ackles is not the only one on Supernatural with a Days connection. The actor who plays Bobby, Jim Beaver, used to play Father Jansen on the soap.

HA! That's awesome. I only recognized him as Ellsworth from Deadwood.

[Lord of Denial]

As far as the angels being killed goes, don't forget that Lilith still has the "fixed" Colt. That could very well have something to do with it.

Doesn't Ruby's knife have the same " Kill anything" properties that The Colt has and that did jack shit.

[Ronald Bryan]

Doesn't Ruby's knife have the same " Kill anything" properties that The Colt has and that did jack shit.
They both kill demons. I don't think anyone thought beyond that when making them, so it's possible the Colt could be that powerful.

[marshal99]

Didn't the colt only have 1 bullet left when they lost it ?!

[WyldCard4]

Didn't the colt only have 1 bullet left when they lost it ?!

No bullets left, they somehow BS'd more in it or something with the help of Ruby, one of the worst plot holes in the show even though I like them getting that power back.

Also I didn't really like Mary being a Hunter, she should have been something cool, but just being a hunter is to obvious for me, and I dislike the "in the blood" idea myself, I like that she was something more than a refrigerator woman, but dislike how they chose to do it.

[marshal99]

You would have thought that the grandfather , being a grizzly veteran hunter , would have the experience to protect himself from being posessed but noooo , bs dumb hick like all the hunters we have seen , just goes in blind as a bat and just endanger himself and got possessed.

It's like going to a beefarm without wearing a protective suit and then provoking them , you are bound to get sting.

[the_coldest_sun]

You would have thought that the grandfather , being a grizzly veteran hunter , would have the experience to protect himself from being posessed but noooo , bs dumb hick like all the hunters we have seen , just goes in blind as a bat and just endanger himself and got possessed.

It's like going to a beefarm without wearing a protective suit and then provoking them , you are bound to get sting.

You gotta remember, demons were an extremely rare thing back then. I forget which Season its in, but Bobby makes a mention that usually there's only 3 or 4 reports of demon activity a year. Maybe Samuel Winchester never encountered one before and wasn't exactly prepared to expect what it could do. Plus it wasn't just any old demon, it was Yellow-Eyes. We know he's suppose to be more powerful than regular demons.

[Chiasm]

Holy ****.

This was a fantastic episode. So far this season had been good but not great for me but this episode is going to go down as one my favorites ever.

And kudos to the casting department for finding a young actress who you can really see aging into the actress we first saw as Mary Winchester. The resemblance between young John / old John isn't so much but I actually thought several times I was looking at the original actress only younger.

[Antonio B.]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this or thought of this. Could Ruby be part of Yellow Eyes End Game? I mean she is the one pushing and encouraging Sam to use his powers. Also could she be affiliated with YE in some way other than both being demons?

[chico25]

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this or thought of this. Could Ruby be part of Yellow Eyes End Game? I mean she is the one pushing and encouraging Sam to use his powers. Also could she be affiliated with YE in some way other than both being demons?

Did the demon that used the name Meg die of did they just send her back to hell because if she turned out to be ruby and was manipulating this whole situation that would be a hell of a twist.

[Winterwolf]

Did the demon that used the name Meg die of did they just send her back to hell because if she turned out to be ruby and was manipulating this whole situation that would be a hell of a twist.

She was excorsised right? The ritual that sent her back to hell...permanety though right? If so she could have been one of the Demons that escaped when the gate was opened. She was a "daughter" of YE's too so if it is her I could totally see her knowing the jist of Azazel's plan and wanting to use Sam for that end.

Interesting theroy

[tangentman]

Also I didn't really like Mary being a Hunter, she should have been something cool, but just being a hunter is to obvious for me, and I dislike the "in the blood" idea myself, I like that she was something more than a refrigerator woman, but dislike how they chose to do it.

Wow, I can't disagree enough with that critique! I thought that was one of the best episodes in the show's history. The time-traveling spin served to give us insights to the major characters. The story also totally spun expectations and flipped them on their ear--the mother introduced the Winchesters to the world of Hunting.

One of my longest-standing complaints about Supernatural has been the "Boys Club" feel. With the exceptions of Bela and Ruby, women typically occupied the Supernaturalverse as either victims or eye candy. We saw precious little outside those limited roles. Not only did the revelation about Mary go a long way toward redeeming that dismal trend, it also explained why she died in the first place.

I thought it was a powerful episode and loved the kick-ass Mary!

[G. Wayne]

I like Bobby too. Long live the grizzled fella!

You would have thought that the grandfather , being a grizzly veteran hunter , would have the experience to protect himself from being posessed but noooo , bs dumb hick like all the hunters we have seen , just goes in blind as a bat and just endanger himself and got possessed.

It's like going to a beefarm without wearing a protective suit and then provoking them , you are bound to get sting.

He said he didn't trust other Hunters, and he also didn't have the web at his disposal like Sam and Dean do. That's a lot of information Grandpa Winchester didn't have access too, in addition to Azazel being powerful on his own.

[Sean Whitmore]

One of my longest-standing complaints about Supernatural has been the "Boys Club" feel. With the exceptions of Bela and Ruby, women typically occupied the Supernaturalverse as either victims or eye candy. We saw precious little outside those limited roles.

I don't know if I'd agree with that. When you add Ellen, Jo, Meg, the crossroads demon, and Lilith to the equation, there are almost as many recurring roles for powerful women as there are for men.


SEAN

[Legato]

I don't know if I'd agree with that. When you add Ellen, Jo, Meg, the crossroads demon, and Lilith to the equation, there are almost as many recurring roles for powerful women as there are for men.


SEAN

Jo, from what I remember, almost started out as a strong character but later on got reduced to being a damsel in distress when she found herself almost being attacked by a demon possessed Sam. She has been in limbo ever since.

[Sean Whitmore]

Jo, from what I remember, almost started out as a strong character but later on got reduced to being a damsel in distress when she found herself almost being attacked by a demon possessed Sam. She has been in limbo ever since.

Was that her last appearance? She didn't appear in the season finale with Ellen?


SEAN

[Legato]

Was that her last appearance? She didn't appear in the season finale with Ellen?


SEAN

She was mentioned by Ellen but she didn't really appear with her when Ellen was helping the Winchesters in closing the gateway to hell.

[Sean Whitmore]

She was mentioned by Ellen but she didn't really appear with her when Ellen was helping the Winchesters in closing the gateway to hell.

Huh, I'd forgotten. I wonder if they couldn't get the actress back or something.


SEAN

[AlistairCrane]

Huh, I'd forgotten. I wonder if they couldn't get the actress back or something.


SEAN

No, the producers came out and said they didn't want to use her.

[AlistairCrane]

One of my longest-standing complaints about Supernatural has been the "Boys Club" feel. With the exceptions of Bela and Ruby, women typically occupied the Supernaturalverse as either victims or eye candy. We saw precious little outside those limited roles. Not only did the revelation about Mary go a long way toward redeeming that dismal trend, it also explained why she died in the first place.

I thought it was a powerful episode and loved the kick-ass Mary!

I totally agree on this point!

[Sean Whitmore]

No, the producers came out and said they didn't want to use her.

Owch! Usually they dress that sort of thing up prettier.


SEAN

[tangentman]

I don't know if I'd agree with that. When you add Ellen, Jo, Meg, the crossroads demon, and Lilith to the equation, there are almost as many recurring roles for powerful women as there are for men.


SEAN

Okay, we can add "strong women reduced to inconsequential minor supporting roles" and "Demons" to my list. The "Strong Woman = Villain in A Man's World" trope. Still not a strong defense of Supernatural's track record with female characters.

[AlistairCrane]

Okay, we can add "strong women reduced to inconsequential minor supporting roles" and "Demons" to my list. The "Strong Woman = Villain in A Man's World" trope. Still not a strong defense of Supernatural's track record with female characters.

I agree. There has still yet to be a strong, "good" woman on the show. I wouldn't say Mary counts.

[tjarvis]

In some ways, and I hope this doesn't come across as terribly sexist, but I kind of like the "Boys Club" feel of the show. That's not to say that I don't enjoy a strong female character or that I want damsals in distress, but most shows of this genre have been overexaggerating tough females since the success of Buffy, to the point where the whole idea has become somewhat diluted to me.

Seeing a show that really focuses on the friendship and relationships between two guys/brothers is actually a refreshing change of pace that I enjoy.

And honestly, one of the reasons they've had a harder time making a female character stick on this show is that they have a tendancy to have the character start up an instant antoganistic relationship to the Winchester brothers, or try to have the character come across as superior to the main characters that have already engendered the loyalty of the mainstream audience.

Just my opinion.

[Winterwolf]

In some ways, and I hope this doesn't come across as terribly sexist, but I kind of like the "Boys Club" feel of the show. That's not to say that I don't enjoy a strong female character or that I want damsals in distress, but most shows of this genre have been overexaggerating tough females since the success of Buffy, to the point where the whole idea has become somewhat diluted to me.

Seeing a show that really focuses on the friendship and relationships between two guys/brothers is actually a refreshing change of pace that I enjoy.

And honestly, one of the reasons they've had a harder time making a female character stick on this show is that they have a tendancy to have the character start up an instant antoganistic relationship to the Winchester brothers, or try to have the character come across as superior to the main characters that have already engendered the loyalty of the mainstream audience.

Just my opinion.

I think thats a fair opinion.
Thats one of the things I think that makes Supernatural successful, its a story about two brothers. I found it refreashing aswell, I liked Buffy (at least the first few seasons) and that was diffinetly a "Girl Power" show as was Charmed.

I don't think it has to be a bad thing if this show happens to revolve around a somewhat "Boy's Club" feeling. As long as good scripts/stories keep coming and quality acting on screen is shown, I have no complaints.

[tangentman]

I don't have a problem with focusing on the relationship between two brothers. There's nothing wrong with male protagonists. I like shows like Angel, Brimstone, Pushing Daisies, Reaper and Dexter. My only problem with the whole "Frat Boy" feel of the Supernatural world is that it seems created in such a way that a strong woman couldn't possibly exist in their world. If we see her, she's either: a) a castrating bitch, b) loses her power the first time her loins twitch for a Winchester boy), c) a minor recurring character who's never seen again, or d) slated to die.

Buffy, Charmed, and even Xena were capable of showing strong men who weren't just easy victims or eye candy. I think Supernatural IS a misogynistic world. Like I've said, it's one of the major problems I have with the show.

[the_coldest_sun]

I don't have a problem with focusing on the relationship between two brothers. There's nothing wrong with male protagonists. I like shows like Angel, Brimstone, Pushing Daisies, Reaper and Dexter. My only problem with the whole "Frat Boy" feel of the Supernatural world is that it seems created in such a way that a strong woman couldn't possibly exist in their world. If we see her, she's either: a) a castrating bitch, b) loses her power the first time her loins twitch for a Winchester boy), c) a minor recurring character who's never seen again, or d) slated to die.

a) Meg Masters
b) Jo
c) Ellen
d) Mary Winchester

did i get them right?

[Legato]

a) Meg Masters & Ruby
b) Jo
c) Ellen
d) Mary Winchester

did i get them right?

Fixed it..

[AlistairCrane]

I don't have a problem with focusing on the relationship between two brothers. There's nothing wrong with male protagonists. I like shows like Angel, Brimstone, Pushing Daisies, Reaper and Dexter. My only problem with the whole "Frat Boy" feel of the Supernatural world is that it seems created in such a way that a strong woman couldn't possibly exist in their world. If we see her, she's either: a) a castrating bitch, b) loses her power the first time her loins twitch for a Winchester boy), c) a minor recurring character who's never seen again, or d) slated to die.

Buffy, Charmed, and even Xena were capable of showing strong men who weren't just easy victims or eye candy. I think Supernatural IS a misogynistic world. Like I've said, it's one of the major problems I have with the show.

I have to echo your sentiments here. Supernatural is an awesome show, but its portrayal of women is highly problematic. Enough to make me not like the show? Well, no. But enough to prevent it from ever being "perfect".

[Chiasm]

In some ways, and I hope this doesn't come across as terribly sexist, but I kind of like the "Boys Club" feel of the show. That's not to say that I don't enjoy a strong female character or that I want damsals in distress, but most shows of this genre have been overexaggerating tough females since the success of Buffy, to the point where the whole idea has become somewhat diluted to me.


+1

I love Buffy, I love Alias, I love Veronica Mars, but the whole girl power theme is getting tired. Its nice to see some guys geting to kick butt for a while in a show instead of being the emo character. Sam and Dean might have their emo moments but they make up for it by kicking ass too. True there are shows out there like 24 with guys in butt kicking leads who aren't emo but it seems that the last decade has been overly dominated in genre shows with females who are the bad asses merely for the sake of having a female in the bad ass role while guys in the show serve the role as the token emo guy. Further example of shows, beyond the ones I just mentioned, where the female gets to play the role of the bad ass: Battlestar Galactica / Starbuck, Firefly / Zoe and River, Sarah Connor Chronicles / Sarah and Cameron, Heroes / Nikki and Claire got the melee prone type powers, Farscape / Aeryn Sun was the bad ass military role, Angel / they turned a perfectly good Fred into a kick ass warrior demon, and there are probably more.

And there have been female hunters seen in this show before now. I recall a husband / wife team in season III for instance. I think it would ruin the dynamic between Sam and Dean if the showed forced a token female hunter into the mix just for the sake of having a female hunter with them. Thats why I'm not at all longing to ever see Jo again. Bella on the other hand I definitely wouldn't mind seeing as she was powerful in her own way and a good foil for Sam and Dean without seeming so tokenish like Jo did.

[Atom_basher]

I don't have a problem with focusing on the relationship between two brothers. There's nothing wrong with male protagonists. I like shows like Angel, Brimstone, Pushing Daisies, Reaper and Dexter. My only problem with the whole "Frat Boy" feel of the Supernatural world is that it seems created in such a way that a strong woman couldn't possibly exist in their world. If we see her, she's either: a) a castrating bitch, b) loses her power the first time her loins twitch for a Winchester boy), c) a minor recurring character who's never seen again, or d) slated to die.

Buffy, Charmed, and even Xena were capable of showing strong men who weren't just easy victims or eye candy. I think Supernatural IS a misogynistic world. Like I've said, it's one of the major problems I have with the show.

I could use the argument, that Xena. Buffy and charmed made the male characters in those shows into exactly what u think supernatural makes females into, Buffy turned every male love interest into an emo punk, silly side kick, or complete bastard, Xena made every man who came into her path seem like a joke, and charmed was practically a sorority.

[Chiasm]

I could use the argument, that Xena. Buffy and charmed made the male characters in those shows into exactly what u think supernatural makes females into, Buffy turned every male love interest into an emo punk, silly side kick, or complete bastard, Xena made every man who came into her path seem like a joke, and charmed was practically a sorority.

About Buffy (which I do love by the way)

I loved the series Angel but even so he never did completely escape the tarnish of being Buffy's emo vampire boyfriend.

Spike was emo from the beginning, whether it be as Drusilla's boy toy or then the love sick puppy he became over Buffy.

Riley was just fine until he went all emo and brooding and had to start letting vamp's feed on him.

Wesley was an absolute joke of a character til he got to go to Angel's male centric show and became cool.

Xander wasn't emo but he was never more than just comic relief and more often than not he needed Buffy to rescue him. As Xander pointed out in season VII, he was the normal one who got left behind while all his friends got cool powers.

Andrew was geek emo.

In fact other than Giles there never was a strong male character on the show who got to stand up for guy power.

[tangentman]

"Guy Power" was NEVER the point of Buffy. I never claimed otherwise. What I said was that the show had the capacity to give us strong male characters. Yes, Angel was brooding, but his time on Buffy was only the first part of his "journey". While he was often self-pitying, he was also very honorable and courageous.

Xander was more than "token comic relief"--he was a pillar of moral support, perceptive, and gave insights when his friends most needed them. This was the man who put aside a petty grudge to pay the balance on his bitter ex-girlfriend's Prom dress just so she could have one moment's relief from her family's recent hardships. Xander was the one who alerted Buffy to the core of her problems with Riley. He talked Willow "off the ledge" at a very crucial moment. Xander took time out to let a disappointed Dawn know that her true value didn't come from having a power, but from the quality of her character. To me, showing a man doing all that stuff is powerful TV.

Also, showing emotion doesn't make a guy "emo". I'm so sick of hearing that, and I think "emo" in that sense is even more tired than "Girl Power".

EDIT: I also never said that Supernatural should have a female lead sharing top billing with the boys. What I would LIKE to see are women who aren't just there to be fuck-buddies of the week, monster munchies, or damsels in distress. Why would showing a female Hunter who lends support like Bobby hurt the show? She doesn't necessarily have to be "hot" or even the same age.

[Atom_basher]

"Guy Power" was NEVER the point of Buffy. I never claimed otherwise. What I said was that the show had the capacity to give us strong male characters. Yes, Angel was brooding, but his time on Buffy was only the first part of his "journey". While he was often self-pitying, he was also very honorable and courageous.

Xander was more than "token comic relief"--he was a pillar of moral support, perceptive, and gave insights when his friends most needed them. This was the man who put aside a petty grudge to pay the balance on his bitter ex-girlfriend's Prom dress just so she could have one moment's relief from her family's recent hardships. Xander was the one who alerted Buffy to the core of her problems with Riley. He talked Willow "off the ledge" at a very crucial moment. Xander took time out to let a disappointed Dawn know that her true value didn't come from having a power, but from the quality of her character. To me, showing a man doing all that stuff is powerful TV.

Also, showing emotion doesn't make a guy "emo". I'm so sick of hearing that, and I think "emo" in that sense is even more tired than "Girl Power".

EDIT: I also never said that Supernatural should have a female lead sharing top billing with the boys. What I would LIKE to see are women who aren't just there to be fuck-buddies of the week, monster munchies, or damsels in distress. Why would showing a female Hunter who lends support like Bobby hurt the show? She doesn't necessarily have to be "hot" or even the same age.


BTW, I'm a HUGE Buffy fan, have seen every episode multiple times, LOVE the show. but lets be real, it did NOT show males in a great light. not until many of them went to angel, (or in some cases not at all) did they become strong characters. and showing emotion doesn't make u emo, being a whipped little man child DOES. Angel was very often whimpery, and was killed. spike tried to RAPE buffy, and sacrificed himself. Xander had his eye gouged out. Riley became a little bitch boy, and started to die from the treatment he got from the initiative. i would say males were treated on buffy how females are treated on supernatural EASILY.

[WyldCard4]

Wow, I can't disagree enough with that critique! I thought that was one of the best episodes in the show's history. The time-traveling spin served to give us insights to the major characters. The story also totally spun expectations and flipped them on their ear--the mother introduced the Winchesters to the world of Hunting.

One of my longest-standing complaints about Supernatural has been the "Boys Club" feel. With the exceptions of Bela and Ruby, women typically occupied the Supernaturalverse as either victims or eye candy. We saw precious little outside those limited roles. Not only did the revelation about Mary go a long way toward redeeming that dismal trend, it also explained why she died in the first place.

I thought it was a powerful episode and loved the kick-ass Mary!

Understand, I liked that she was something more than a woman who only existed to give them a reason to be hunters.

I disliked the idea that she was a hunter herself and that she stopped being one, in a world like Supernatural that is almost villianios behavior, she knew what was out their, she was raised to fight it, and she did nothing to help save the world, she knew people she could save were out there and she did nothing to help them, it may be human behaviour, but it looks weak for her to do this by the internal standards of the show's morality.

That is why I disliked her being an ex-hunter.

[Kaos]

Meh. I like the way it is.
Bro's over Hoes, yo...Bro's over Hoes.

[T'Jai]

Understand, I liked that she was something more than a woman who only existed to give them a reason to be hunters.

I disliked the idea that she was a hunter herself and that she stopped being one, in a world like Supernatural that is almost villianios behavior, she knew what was out their, she was raised to fight it, and she did nothing to help save the world, she knew people she could save were out there and she did nothing to help them, it may be human behaviour, but it looks weak for her to do this by the internal standards of the show's morality.

That is why I disliked her being an ex-hunter. I have to disagree,. if any thing her last few days as a hunter were clear examples of why it was a poor occupation as I don't believe they stopped anything. Early in her hunting career she lost both her parents and her fiancee to one creature. At a certain point you have to realize you are not effective and be willing to walk away especially if you are causing equal or more harm than good.

Sam also quit and only returned to the job when Dean came back and said his father was missing do you view his actions in the same light?

[WyldCard4]

I have to disagree,. if any thing her last few days as a hunter were clear examples of why it was a poor occupation as I don't believe they stopped anything. Early in her hunting career she lost both her parents and her fiancee to one creature. At a certain point you have to realize you are not effective and be willing to walk away especially if you are causing equal or more harm than good.Her compitance is an unknown factor, no hunter could have done better than she could have under the circumstances, her parents were dead and she made a deal to save a life, that was good, but she could have kept on fighting and made something of her life, made it so her and her husband's life would have been a boon to the world.

Instead she did nothing, likely assuming that Yellow Eyes was going to kill her at any time and not telling John this, making no arangments I am aware of to help her family after whay would likely be ten years before Yellow Eyes killed her, she was depicted as either someone in complete denial or a morally weak human being.

I am sure she didn't know Yellow Eyes wanted her son, but she would have to know Yellow Eyes would come back for her at the very least and likely kill her family, I admit I have not seen every episode so it is possible I have missed one where it was revealed she knew what would happen and somehow managed to improve things or try to, but with the information I have it seems she knew she would be killed and Yellow Eyes would come to where she lived endangering her family and she did nothing to prepare for that certianty.


Sam also quit and only returned to the job when Dean came back and said his father was missing do you view his actions in the same light?Yes, I view it in exactly the same light, and the show seemed to be saying it was wrong for him to quit and that he should have stayed a hunter in several episodes where it has been shown it was better that Mary died and they went on their crusade of saving people.

But Sam didn't know Yellow Eyes would come for him, Mary did, so he was morally superior in that unconected regard.

[G. Wayne]

Understand, I liked that she was something more than a woman who only existed to give them a reason to be hunters.

I disliked the idea that she was a hunter herself and that she stopped being one, in a world like Supernatural that is almost villianios behavior, she knew what was out their, she was raised to fight it, and she did nothing to help save the world, she knew people she could save were out there and she did nothing to help them, it may be human behaviour, but it looks weak for her to do this by the internal standards of the show's morality.

That is why I disliked her being an ex-hunter.

I getcha in the context of the Supernatureal-verse, but this reminds me of something I heard a while ago in regards to the army. Who would you rather have fighting by your side in the field; someone who signed up and wanted to be there, or someone who was drafted and did -not- want to be there? I don't remember it word for word, but Mary's speech to Dean give the impression she wasn't into Hunting.

[G. Wayne]

+1

I love Buffy, I love Alias, I love Veronica Mars, but the whole girl power theme is getting tired. Its nice to see some guys geting to kick butt for a while in a show instead of being the emo character. Sam and Dean might have their emo moments but they make up for it by kicking ass too. ....

Agreed. After Buffy, Charmed, and you could say that Angel went both ways, (big Buffyverse fan, never got into Charmed) the Boy's Club aspect of Supernatural is a nice of change of pace to me.

[WyldCard4]

I getcha in the context of the Supernatureal-verse, but this reminds me of something I heard a while ago in regards to the army. Who would you rather have fighting by your side in the field; someone who signed up and wanted to be there, or someone who was drafted and did -not- want to be there? I don't remember it word for word, but Mary's speech to Dean give the impression she wasn't into Hunting.

True, I agree she wouldn't have been the best soldier, but she could still have saved hundreds of lives even if she only lasted for another year or two.

I would rather fight with voluntiers by my side, but to stretch the metaphor if our country is attacked and needs men to fight to survive we still need a draft, and they are fighting a war for human survival in that world.

Still to help your argument hunters in her day were likely less powerful, without the massive information advantage modern humanity gets it seemed that they were more a family that went hunting than warriors devoted to the war, without being able to follow every lead in the country they likely had a much lower kill count, making the settled nature of the family's life make a lot more sense.

It seems likely her family lived a much more settled life than the Winchester brothers with them claiming to go on camping trips every weekend or something to that effect given the lack of information and the fact that Mary and John were in a normal relationship.

[the_coldest_sun]

The problem is unlike Dean, both Mary and Sam really had something else to live for: a normal life.

Mary never wanted to be a hunter, she never wanted her children to be raised in the harsh lifestyle she grew up in. She lost both her parents to evil and was spared John, her only chance at starting over. Her chance to rebuild a family and finally get some peace and sanity. It may have been a little selfish if you look at the big picture, but I don't fault Mary one bit for moving on with her life. After what she had been through, she deserved a normal life raising her own family.

Same with Sam. He, like Mary, never wanted to be a hunter. All he wanted was a normal life. To go to college, get a career, get married, settle down, have a family, all that good stuff. Ironically, it's actually the kind of life his mother wanted for him (and Yellow-Eyes had to fuck that up too). I don't think it's really fair to call it selfish for Sam to want to get away from the hunter lifestyle. It's not his fault he was brought up in it. Should Sam have to suffer because father became an obsessed hard-ass after his wife's death? No, I think not. He deserved a shot at a normal life too.

Now Dean on the other hand doesn't have anything else to live for. With him, it's do or die and that's what I love about him. He's Batman. He will NEVER give up his job as a hunter as long as he knows he could do the world some good and save some lives. He's too deticated, too caring, and like I said before he has nothing else to live for but hunt.

[WyldCard4]

And the reason civilians should suffer instead of Sam?

Remember the beasts they hunt down will kill and kill and kill again if they aren't stopped, even if another hunter gets to each and every one just a few kills later it would still be hundreds of shattered lives because Sam wasn't out there hunting.

Being a hunter is not a life style choice or job, it is a calling or duty to save those weaker than you.

Remember just how effective they are, every episode they stop some big bad beast that would have killed many times again, with that kind of sucess rate in the here and now there is no way to think a normal life is morally equivelent to being a hunter.

And Mary had to know Yellow Eyes would come back for her, even assuming she thought she sold her soul she still knew she could be killed any time and her family was at risk, yet she did nothing to guard against this day.

Mary was a morally weak person or one who had snapped and repressed her memory of those events, she was not a strong character.

[Atom_basher]

And the reason civilians should suffer instead of Sam?

Remember the beasts they hunt down will kill and kill and kill again if they aren't stopped, even if another hunter gets to each and every one just a few kills later it would still be hundreds of shattered lives because Sam wasn't out there hunting.
r.

like you said there are other hunters, its silly to expect everything to be on one person's shoulders

[WyldCard4]

like you said there are other hunters, its silly to expect everything to be on one person's shoulders

Everything didn't, hundreds of lives did.

Maybe thousands if she had taken down something like the airplane demon that killed hundreds at a time.

[lqyromeo]

the Break season 4 is too slowly to watch wholely. I like the girl called mary in the film. LOL,

[WyldCard4]

the Break season 4 is too slowly to watch wholely. I like the girl called mary in the film. LOL,

Huh?

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say, sorry.

[kalorama]

Being a hunter is not a life style choice or job, it is a calling or duty to save those weaker than you.

It's very much a choice, just like being a cop or a soldier. She wasn't fated to be a hunter and fight monsters. It's something she was born into. But just because it was the family business doesn't make her bound by duty or honor to follow along. She had every right to choose a direction for her own life. Whether she made the right choice is open to debate, but the idea that she committed some kind of moral sin by not choosing to risk her life to save strangers is simply untrue, just like it would be untrue if the son of generations of military service decided to become an accountant instead.

[WyldCard4]

It's very much a choice, just like being a cop or a soldier. She wasn't fated to be a hunter and fight monsters. It's something she was born into. But just because it was the family business doesn't make her bound by duty or honor to follow along. She had every right to choose a direction for her own life. Whether she made the right choice is open to debate, but the idea that she committed some kind of moral sin by not choosing to risk her life to save strangers is simply untrue, just like it would be untrue if the son of generations of military service decided to become an accountant instead.
She didn't sin, she turned her back on those she could have helped.

It happens, no one does as much as they should to help and she made a very human choice, simply one that cost many people their lives.

But she did comit another sin, she chose to live a life that she knew was doomed with her family at risk and did nothing at all to prepare them for either her death or the attack of Yellow Eyes or hellhounds, she did comit an act so short sighted it is nearly criminal there.

[kalorama]

She didn't sin, she turned her back on those she could have helped.

It happens, no one does as much as they should to help and she made a very human choice, simply one that cost many people their lives.

So if someone turns down a scholarship to medical school to start a rock band or resigns a military career to start a family, are they also "cost(ing) many people their lives"? Because what she did was no different. She had no obligation to go chasing monsters in the dark. none whatsoever.

But she did comit another sin, she chose to live a life that she knew was doomed with her family at risk and did nothing at all to prepare them for either her death or the attack of Yellow Eyes or hellhounds, she did comit an act so short sighted it is nearly criminal there.

Except you don't know that's what she did. It's very possible (in fact, likely) that she and John did take precautions and tried to protect the kids and simply failed because their adversary was too powerful. To assume that they'd just sit back and wait and do nothing is pretty far fetched.

[dupersuper]

And the reason civilians should suffer instead of Sam?

Remember the beasts they hunt down will kill and kill and kill again if they aren't stopped, even if another hunter gets to each and every one just a few kills later it would still be hundreds of shattered lives because Sam wasn't out there hunting.



Oh please. Every one on this board could join the police force or army tomorrow. There are plenty of problems in the world killing people without fictional monsters added to the mix. Are we not living up to our moral responsibility? You know people are dying of cancer right now. Why aren't you working on a cure? You know there are serial killers burying bodies somewhere. Why aren't you tracking them down? We all have a right to a normal life, and if we don't see to our own sanity first, and spend all our time dedicated to a cause we have no real wish to pursue, or much aptitude for, out of a sense of obligation, then we won't be much good to the people we were trying to help; screwing up, having mental breakdowns... There's no reason to hold Sam and his mother to a higher moral standard, especially as the apocalyptic nature of the yellow eyed demons plans weren't known until a season or 2 into the show.

[Kaos]

Oh please. Every one on this board could join the police force or army tomorrow. There are plenty of problems in the world killing people without fictional monsters added to the mix. Are we not living up to our moral responsibility? You know people are dying of cancer right now. Why aren't you working on a cure? You know there are serial killers burying bodies somewhere. Why aren't you tracking them down? We all have a right to a normal life, and if we don't see to our own sanity first, and spend all our time dedicated to a cause we have no real wish to pursue, or much aptitude for, out of a sense of obligation, then we won't be much good to the people we were trying to help; screwing up, having mental breakdowns... There's no reason to hold Sam and his mother to a higher moral standard, especially as the apocalyptic nature of the yellow eyed demons plans weren't known until a season or 2 into the show.

exactly! preach it, man.

[AlistairCrane]

I really don't see the need for Ruby this season--she's rather redundant. They've done all they can with the character, so I'd like to seem them move on.

[Legato]

I really don't see the need for Ruby this season--she's rather redundant. They've done all they can with the character, so I'd like to seem them move on.

They need someone to teach Sam how to use his power. Although I do wish they would stop flip flopping on Sam wanting to use his power and Sam refusing to use his powers.

From the looks of things Sam's powers have helped more than harm people as he tried to explain to Dean and if the threat is as big as the Angel said it is Sam needs to develop his powers if he ever wants to prepare himself for the threat that Lilith will be unleashing.

So the way I see it is that Dean should have to deal with the fact that Sam has powers.

[AlistairCrane]

They need someone to teach Sam how to use his power.

Sure they do, but it doesn't need to be Nuby.

[Holacik]

They need someone to teach Sam how to use his power. Although I do wish they would stop flip flopping on Sam wanting to use his power and Sam refusing to use his powers.

From the looks of things Sam's powers have helped more than harm people as he tried to explain to Dean and if the threat is as big as the Angel said it is Sam needs to develop his powers if he ever wants to prepare himself for the threat that Lilith will be unleashing.

So the way I see it is that Dean should have to deal with the fact that Sam has powers.

Was Sam just excorcising(Sp?) the demons or flat out killing them? I wasn't too sure on that. And of course just because the demon says she's ruby might not make it so. I missed the first ep this season, did they ever cover what happened to Bobby?

[Lord of Denial]

They need someone to teach Sam how to use his power. Although I do wish they would stop flip flopping on Sam wanting to use his power and Sam refusing to use his powers.

From the looks of things Sam's powers have helped more than harm people as he tried to explain to Dean and if the threat is as big as the Angel said it is Sam needs to develop his powers if he ever wants to prepare himself for the threat that Lilith will be unleashing.

So the way I see it is that Dean should have to deal with the fact that Sam has powers.

This is a well written show and I doubt they would have Sam as the endgame solution to a pretty much be all, end all threat of Lucifer. It is kind of a stretch to have Sam who only has some demon blood within him from a demon lower on the food chain then Lilith be able to stand againt Satan.

[Ronald Bryan]

Huh?

I don't quite understand what you are trying to say, sorry.

I'll translate.

the Break season 4 is too slowly to watch wholely. I like the girl called mary in the film. LOL,

I am a spammer. Click on my signature.

like you said there are other hunters, its silly to expect everything to be on one person's shoulders

But from what I've seen almost all of the other hunters are pretty ineffective. Bobby seems to be the only one capable of surviving attacks (for now).

[Holacik]

But from what I've seen almost all of the other hunters are pretty ineffective. Bobby seems to be the only one capable of surviving attacks (for now).

I disagree it seems that most Hunters specialize in a paticular type. Like Travis specialized in rootaloog's( our whateverthey're called). Gordon, vampires. Etc. It only seems like a few that actually hunt everything (like the winchesters). So when they come across something they don't usually hunt then tend to get whacked.

[WyldCard4]

I disagree it seems that most Hunters specialize in a paticular type. Like Travis specialized in rootaloog's( our whateverthey're called). Gordon, vampires. Etc. It only seems like a few that actually hunt everything (like the winchesters). So when they come across something they don't usually hunt then tend to get whacked.

That makes a lot of sense.

As most hunters get into that line of work because they lost someone to such a threat they would likely focus on it, with John not knowing what took his wife he hunted everything he could find. giving him more information than most hunters ever had.

[marshal99]

I disagree it seems that most Hunters specialize in a paticular type. Like Travis specialized in rootaloog's( our whateverthey're called). Gordon, vampires. Etc. It only seems like a few that actually hunt everything (like the winchesters). So when they come across something they don't usually hunt then tend to get whacked.

I disagree with that , hunters by definition is supposed to be all rounders in hunting every supernatural beings , sure some of them are more specialised in certain type as they have more personal stake but otherwise , they should be prepared and well aware of the things they might faced if they are willing to go down that line.
However , from what we have seen from this show , most of the hunters are kind of useless and ineffective like lambs to the slaughter. Even Dean and Sam often have plot devices galore to get them out of the jam - Bobby being one of them.

[WyldCard4]

I disagree with that , hunters by definition is supposed to be all rounders in hunting every supernatural beings , sure some of them are more specialised in certain type as they have more personal stake but otherwise , they should be prepared and well aware of the things they might faced if they are willing to go down that line.
However , from what we have seen from this show , most of the hunters are kind of useless and ineffective like lambs to the slaughter. Even Dean and Sam often have plot devices galore to get them out of the jam - Bobby being one of them.

Always the problem with badass normals fighting beings with superpowers.

Every show that has ever tried it has made PIS the order of the day, and it will only get worse over time.

[AlistairCrane]

So...best episode of Supernatural ever!! Made all the more better because Jamie was played by Pretty from Passions. :wink:

[AdamYJ]

Now, I normally don't watch Supernatural, but when I saw this was going to be an homage to classic monster movies, I had to give it a shot. It was pretty good. There were times when I thought they went a little too far past homage into parody. However, what won me over was when the shape-shifter gave his little speech about his sad past and why he was drawn to the classic monsters. That's when I knew that the people making the show understood one of the central aspects of the classic Universal horror pictures: in the end, you always sympathize with the monster a little.

[Spidey-kid1]

I loled like hell when dracula opened the door and had a conversation with the pizza delivery boy. :biggrin:

Freakin epic episode. :biggrin:

[Legato]

I loled like hell when dracula opened the door and had a conversation with the pizza delivery boy. :biggrin:

Freakin epic episode. :biggrin:

I loved that scene too, especially when he asked the pizza guy if thare is garlic in the pizza. Having the whole thing be done in Black and White was a nice touch.

[Ronald Bryan]

The pizza boy conversation was great. And Dean was great as always.

[Legato]

To be honest while the shapeshifter was good I was kinda dissappointed that the Trickster wasn't responsible for it. It seem like something he would do to just screw with Dean and Sam for the heck of it.

[AlistairCrane]

I'm just glad that the "Girl of the Week" got to save the day and be the hero this time.

[Legato]

I'm just glad that the "Girl of the Week" got to save the day and be the hero this time.

Same here. I was half expecting it was Sam who shot him.

[kalorama]

Brilliant episode. Dean Winchester may be the best character on TV right now.

[Legato]

Brilliant episode. Dean Winchester may be the best character on TV right now.

Probably the most developed one when compared to Sam.

[kalorama]

I didn't get why he'd take the time to dress Dean up in lederhosen. Not that it mattered. It was still funny.

[WyldCard4]

Great episode, but I can't stand black and white and the soundtrack gave me a headache.

It needed to be done that way, it was better that way, but it still hurt my head a little.

I love ths shape shifters, best villain class we have yet seen on this show, ghosts are cool but I hate how they are fought while demons make me quesy thinking about hell, I hope for more shape shifters, maybe a strange (though still a threat) heroic one some day.

The girl of the week was cool, I like the mothers Dean falls for more but it is good to vary it a bit.

To be honest while the shapeshifter was good I was kinda dissappointed that the Trickster wasn't responsible for it. It seem like something he would do to just screw with Dean and Sam for the heck of it.Honestly I don't think it is quite his style, the Trickster always has a good reason for killing his victims with them being evil in some way, sent the guy down the wormhole who was ruining the town, killed the evil animal abuser, rapped the frat boy, his victims are always forshadowed as dicks.

I thought they might be going down that route when the werewolf killed the guy who was pressuring the girl to have sex, but there wasn't any indication anyone else way a bad guy who got what was coming to him.

Same here. I was half expecting it was Sam who shot him.

I thought it was Castiel at first, it didn't make much sense but with Dean out and the girl of the week KO'd I thought they were going with a Deus Ex Machina, this was better and more fitting with the tropes they wanted.

Next one looks like another Dean having a near-death experience and having flashbacks, I hope the combo of the two will make it seem different from the others of that kind.

[the_coldest_sun]

Ah! No one's mentioned Sam kicking the door down! That was great.

[Kaos]

Seriously, the supernatural team need to give themselves a pat on the back. Every week is a classic episode, well written, well paced, really well acted. Dean and Sam's chemistry is too much, their little look at the start when I think Dean mentions something about "It would have to be in black and white" was jokes.
The GOTW was hot. Serious buff tings, and I love how Sam backs his bro to the point where he's like - get your bang on I'm a go get the monster.
All in all great episode, great to see they aren't scared of experimenting. can't wait for next week.

[marshal99]

To be honest while the shapeshifter was good I was kinda dissappointed that the Trickster wasn't responsible for it. It seem like something he would do to just screw with Dean and Sam for the heck of it.

I think the trickster has played out his tormenting of Dean and Sam during that multi-death of dean and 6 months torture of Sam.
Dean and Sam knows full well to get the hell out of dodge if it was the trickster after that last time as he's pretty much nigh impossible to kill.


The GOTW was hot. Serious buff tings, and I love how Sam backs his bro to the point where he's like - get your bang on I'm a go get the monster.

Funny , that GOTW reminds me of old ruby in terms of looks (although Katie is cuter) and how much i missed her presence on the show.

[Kaos]

Funny , that GOTW reminds me of old ruby in terms of looks (although Katie is cuter) and how much i missed her presence on the show.

and did I wanna bang old Ruby.

[AlistairCrane]

Gross. Can we can the frat boy talk please? Not all of us want to go "bang a ho".

[Kaos]

Gross. Can we can the frat boy talk please? Not all of us want to go "bang a ho".

well clearly you're missing out.

[tangentman]

well clearly you're missing out.

No, he's just trying to keep the level of conversation somewhere above "Drunk, Horny Primate". I agree--we're not in a frat house or a bad rapper video.

[Kaos]

No, he's just trying to keep the level of conversation somewhere above "Drunk, Horny Primate". I agree--we're not in a frat house or a bad rapper video.

.....................uh

yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeauh.

On another note, I think Dean is channeling palin

"I'm a maverick. Don't play by the rules."

classic

[Legato]

Gross. Can we can the frat boy talk please? Not all of us want to go "bang a ho".

Simple solution. Just ignore the 'frat boy talk' . Also you need to chill on those comments whenever someone mentiones Ruby or some other blonde character since they do indicate that you have a extreme hate for Blondes

[Dr Cthulwho]

I disagree it seems that most Hunters specialize in a paticular type. Like Travis specialized in rootaloog's( our whateverthey're called). Gordon, vampires. Etc. It only seems like a few that actually hunt everything (like the winchesters). So when they come across something they don't usually hunt then tend to get whacked.

I think that could be it to a point, as well as a lot of the other Hunters that have ended up dead seemed to be more settled down and don't look like they travel all over hunting. Like Mary's family, or the ones being killed by the raised Witnesses, while the more successful hunters we've seen - mainly the Winchesters and Gordon, seem to keep on the road, chasing strange goings on no matter where they happen.

I imagine the Winchester method of hunting leads to Hunters with a wider range of experiences and better adaptability. Perhaps those more settled Hunter's mainly deal with those beasties that crop up in their general region?

Was Sam just excorcising(Sp?) the demons or flat out killing them? I wasn't too sure on that.

I'm pretty sure he's just exorcising them. A more efficient type of exorcism at that.

But she did comit another sin, she chose to live a life that she knew was doomed with her family at risk and did nothing at all to prepare them for either her death or the attack of Yellow Eyes or hellhounds, she did comit an act so short sighted it is nearly criminal there.

And Mary had to know Yellow Eyes would come back for her, even assuming she thought she sold her soul she still knew she could be killed any time and her family was at risk, yet she did nothing to guard against this day.

Well, she was young, and she did do it to save a life. Of the person she loved. A bit "like mother, like father, like sons" - since you know, making deals with demons to save loved ones isn't unknown to the Winchesters.

And she didn't know she was doomed - after all, all deals on the show have pretty defined terms and are delivered as agreed - like "in return for fame/fortune/etc in ten years time I'll be collecting your soul" kind of thing. Yellow Eyes made it pretty clear that wasn't on the table - just that he'd drop by for a bit and then leave - though he was a demon, I doubt she trusted him.

Of course she might have thought Y.E. may have been exorcised in ten years time. Or even killed - what with having met a Hunter called Dean who, to her, appeared to be hunting him, had the ability to "predict" where he was going and had the colt.

[Legato]

Great episode, but I can't stand black and white and the soundtrack gave me a headache.

It needed to be done that way, it was better that way, but it still hurt my head a little.

I love ths shape shifters, best villain class we have yet seen on this show, ghosts are cool but I hate how they are fought while demons make me quesy thinking about hell, I hope for more shape shifters, maybe a strange (though still a threat) heroic one some day.

The girl of the week was cool, I like the mothers Dean falls for more but it is good to vary it a bit.

Honestly I don't think it is quite his style, the Trickster always has a good reason for killing his victims with them being evil in some way, sent the guy down the wormhole who was ruining the town, killed the evil animal abuser, rapped the frat boy, his victims are always forshadowed as dicks.

I thought they might be going down that route when the werewolf killed the guy who was pressuring the girl to have sex, but there wasn't any indication anyone else way a bad guy who got what was coming to him.



I thought it was Castiel at first, it didn't make much sense but with Dean out and the girl of the week KO'd I thought they were going with a Deus Ex Machina, this was better and more fitting with the tropes they wanted.

Next one looks like another Dean having a near-death experience and having flashbacks, I hope the combo of the two will make it seem different from the others of that kind.

Hopefully somewhare down the road Sam gets to use his powers. It kinda gets repetitive to have Sam use his powers, Dean fears he will go dark, then Sam goes back to not using his powers.

[Kaos]

Hopefully somewhare down the road Sam gets to use his powers. It kinda gets repetitive to have Sam use his powers, Dean fears he will go dark, then Sam goes back to not using his powers.

save em for the final episode of the season

[Legato]

save em for the final episode of the season

As long as Bobby isn't used as a sacrificial lamb for Sam to unleash his powers fully.

[Kaos]

As long as Bobby isn't used as a sacrificial lamb for Sam to unleash his powers fully.

Bobby isnt disposable like that.

[WyldCard4]

I think the trickster has played out his tormenting of Dean and Sam during that multi-death of dean and 6 months torture of Sam.
Dean and Sam knows full well to get the hell out of dodge if it was the trickster after that last time as he's pretty much nigh impossible to kill.



Funny , that GOTW reminds me of old ruby in terms of looks (although Katie is cuter) and how much i missed her presence on the show.
I think the trickster will show up next fighting for the Angels, I think he may actually be one of them or something made from a Fallen or Divine Angel, and he has a warped sense of justice, I suspect he will end up coming in and fighting for the good guys in a major battle near the end.

Either that or we see him be killed to set up a really Big Bad or Aragorn (TV Tropes meaning) which would be sad but not a bad way to end the character.

I suspect he may have the Colt, I don't know why, but something like that is the only reason I could see the Wichesters going after him again.
I think that could be it to a point, as well as a lot of the other Hunters that have ended up dead seemed to be more settled down and don't look like they travel all over hunting. Like Mary's family, or the ones being killed by the raised Witnesses, while the more successful hunters we've seen - mainly the Winchesters and Gordon, seem to keep on the road, chasing strange goings on no matter where they happen.I see that, that would explain a lot.

I imagine the Winchester method of hunting leads to Hunters with a wider range of experiences and better adaptability. Perhaps those more settled Hunter's mainly deal with those beasties that crop up in their general region?
Also the boys were raised in this line of work meaning they are realitively young and unscared with a huge amount of experience, annd they still get their asses kicked a lot.

I'm pretty sure he's just exorcising them. A more efficient type of exorcism at that.

I think so too.


Well, she was young, and she did do it to save a life. Of the person she loved. A bit "like mother, like father, like sons" - since you know, making deals with demons to save loved ones isn't unknown to the Winchesters. That wasn't the problem.

She never warned John in any known way, and she had a family knowing that Yellow Eyes was coming for her, she must have known something terrible was going to happen, he was a literaly God Damned Demon.
And she didn't know she was doomed - after all, all deals on the show have pretty defined terms and are delivered as agreed - like "in return for fame/fortune/etc in ten years time I'll be collecting your soul" kind of thing. Yellow Eyes made it pretty clear that wasn't on the table - just that he'd drop by for a bit and then leave - though he was a demon, I doubt she trusted him.
The most likely assumption was she was getting her self sent to hell via Hellhound, or worse.

No way she didn't think her family was in danger.

After watching a few more first season episodes it is very clear she never told John anything with him going to the psychic after Mary's death to find out the truth.

Of course she might have thought Y.E. may have been exorcised in ten years time. Or even killed - what with having met a Hunter called Dean who, to her, appeared to be hunting him, had the ability to "predict" where he was going and had the colt.That is possible, I wonder if Dean was named after himself like me or Marty McFly.

Seriously my dad dreamed I time traveled back to him before I was born, something I consider awesome, this gave me my name.
Hopefully somewhare down the road Sam gets to use his powers. It kinda gets repetitive to have Sam use his powers, Dean fears he will go dark, then Sam goes back to not using his powers.

I hope they either decide to use them regularly or never use them at all.

[Legato]

I hope they either decide to use them regularly or never use them at all.

It all depends on Dean. Deep down Sam believes he can use his powers for good but Dean cant shake the fact that his powers came from the guy that killed his family and you have Castiel warning Dean that Sam could end up as the anti-Christ.

That would explain the paranoid fear Dean possibly has whenever Sam keeps using his powers because he know if it all comes down he would have to make a choice on killing his brother should he become evil like Castiel said.

[WyldCard4]

It all depends on Dean. Deep down Sam believes he can use his powers for good but Dean cant shake the fact that his powers came from the guy that killed his family and you have Castiel warning Dean that Sam could end up as the anti-Christ.

That would explain the paranoid fear Dean possibly has whenever Sam keeps using his powers because he know if it all comes down he would have to make a choice on killing his brother should he become evil like Castiel said.

You are right, but as long as Sam flip flops on using them he isn't going to be purely devoted to one force or another, either he needs to become a man or a super-man, to be both and neither will only make him worse off in time, he needs to decide either to fuse them as part of himself or reject them totally.

[Legato]

You are right, but as long as Sam flip flops on using them he isn't going to be purely devoted to one force or another, either he needs to become a man or a super-man, to be both and neither will only make him worse off in time, he needs to decide either to fuse them as part of himself or reject them totally.

When going up against a powerful evil that Lilith somehow unleashed Sam better train his abilities to the fullest because the regular methods in killing monsters sure as hell wont work against what they will be facing later on.

Dean was lucky that Castiel saved his butt in hell, if Sam and Dean dont get their act together one of them wont be so lucky next time.

[WyldCard4]

When going up against a powerful evil that Lilith somehow unleashed Sam better train his abilities to the fullest because the regular methods in killing monsters sure as hell wont work against what they will be facing later on.

Dean was lucky that Castiel saved his butt in hell, if Sam and Dean dont get their act together one of them wont be so lucky next time.

That is exactly the problem.

If he decides it is worth it to use his powers to save his life and his brother he considers them OK enough to save lives, and who is to say that his life is more important than those he could save using his powers?

Either they should never be used for any reason or they should only be used to save lives, if he decides he will save any life with his powers he has either officially decided a hunter's life is more important than a human life, one of the most frightening things he could do is to make a doublestandard for who to save.

Of course what should be done is talk to Castiel about it, the only being they know who can tell him how far he can go and what the price is for going too far.

[Legato]

That is exactly the problem.

If he decides it is worth it to use his powers to save his life and his brother he considers them OK enough to save lives, and who is to say that his life is more important than those he could save using his powers?

Either they should never be used for any reason or they should only be used to save lives, if he decides he will save any life with his powers he has either officially decided a hunter's life is more important than a human life, one of the most frightening things he could do is to make a doublestandard for who to save.

Of course what should be done is talk to Castiel about it, the only being they know who can tell him how far he can go and what the price is for going too far.

At this point I dont think we have to worry about Sam going evil. It is obvious that he is fighting for the side of good despite that his methods seem questionable to others.

A conversation with Castiel would be good for him but that depends on if he still doesn't trust Sam due to his connection with YED. Yet Castiel could take a chance and persuade Sam to continue using his ability as long as he wont be tempted to do evil.

I think Sam is confused on whare he should go with his gift, he was doing it casually and he did save alot of lives more than he did when he wasn't using him. Once he sees how scared Dean was when he found out Sam was using his ability he mostly quit because he probably dont want his brother to believe that he is evil.

Sam saw what others who have his ability do when YED gathered Sam and others like Sam in that deserted town. He saw how they used their ability for their malicious needs and he practically died by one of them.

So Sam right now is probably asking himself should I help people with my abilities or risk the possibility of going dark and Dean might have to take it upon himself to kill his brother.

[Z-man]

Jo, from what I remember, almost started out as a strong character but later on got reduced to being a damsel in distress when she found herself almost being attacked by a demon possessed Sam. She has been in limbo ever since.

I think you're misremembering, Jo was never a strong character.

I remember hearing she was supposed to be a love interest for Dean, and I just did not see it. He basically acted the same way around her he does around Sam, and that's really the state we're used to seeing Dean in.

I don't have a problem with focusing on the relationship between two brothers. There's nothing wrong with male protagonists. I like shows like Angel, Brimstone, Pushing Daisies, Reaper and Dexter. My only problem with the whole "Frat Boy" feel of the Supernatural world is that it seems created in such a way that a strong woman couldn't possibly exist in their world. If we see her, she's either: a) a castrating bitch, b) loses her power the first time her loins twitch for a Winchester boy), c) a minor recurring character who's never seen again, or d) slated to die.

My one probalem with this arguement is that I can't think of many male characters who don't fit category A, C, or D.

We've pretty much got Sam, Dean, and Bobby. John is debateable, but he fits into all three of those categories in a way. Also Sam and Dean both kinda fall into D, and they both serve as the "damsel in distress" for the other about half the time.

[marshal99]

Also the boys were raised in this line of work meaning they are realitively young and unscared with a huge amount of experience

Hardly , most of their experience came via their dad's little book and Bobby , mostly bobby who is like their walking dictionary and plot device.

Dean and Sam fought demons all their lives and yet they themselves never immunized themselves against getting possessed till Bobby that old billygoat showed them.

[ForeverTaskmaster]

I have to give the Supernatural people credit for trying out new things, but this episode was definitely not my cup of tea. For me, this episode and Ghost Facers are definitely the worst 2 episodes in Supernatural history. I was bored beyond bored and couldn't wait until this episode was finished. But hey, I guess I have to take the bad with the good. At least I know that next episode will kick ass again. Man, I can't wait to see Uriel appear (whenever he is supposed to appear).

As for Jo, I really thought she was kind of like a Winchester sister. I definitely couldn't picture her as a love interest for Dean. Bela looked more like a love interest for Dean.
As much as I didn't like her character she and Dean had chemistry.

[Kalen O.]

My theory on the reason for Sam's powers and the YED's 'experiments' is that YED was trying to create the perfect demonic host. We know the whole point of the Season 2 finale was YED pitting his psychic kids against each other to determine the strongest of them, the most likely to survive. And we know Lilith is trying to free something more powerful than even her, most likely Lucifer. Now, we've seen how powerful demons like her are in regular human hosts. And then we've seen that Sam, thanks to YED's meddling in infancy, is somehow powerful enough to scare even her. Now imagine what a demon (or devil) more powerful than even Lilith, could do in the body of someone like Sam, rather than a regular human.

And yes, I know Sam has been possessed before, but it was relatively early on when his powers were still fairly undeveloped.