Tradewaiting @ Vertigo = $$$

[morganagrom]

In these tough economic times, buying comics has become more than expensive than ever. Rising gas and cover prices have driven more and more readers toward tradewaitng, and it's paying off. Passing on the pamphlets and waiting for the trade adds up really quickly into substantial savings.

For example, Army@Love:
Book 2 just came out and costs $13. Book 1 only cost $10. Total cost, $23. On the other hand, the pamphlets, 1-12, cost approximately $36, so the tradewaiter saved $13.

Now, that's just one book, but there's lots of others. More to follow...

[DonC]

Buying singles and/or waiting for the trade is up to the consumer. And everyone knows the pros and cons of the debate. You jumping up and down screaming made-up words isn't going to sway anybody.

[Generic Eric]

This strategy also means that Army@Love is no longer a ongoing series.

[morganagrom]

This strategy also means that Army@Love is no longer a ongoing series.

Neither is Y the Last Man.

However, the 10 paperbacks cost approximately $140. Buying pamphlets 1-60 would have cost approximately $180. Tradewaiters still got to read the entire story and saved $40 in the process.

Vertigo has already announced Army@Love Season 2. Anyone think the paperback won't be called Army@Love Volume 3?

[Ryan Day]

The cheapness of the trades is largely dependent on the money raised by the sales and advertising of the monthlies. If people stopped buying the monthlies and Vertigo went trade-only, they wouldn't be as cheap.

Don't get me wrong, I read trades for some series, and I understand the benefit. But the whole "I want product as cheap as humanly possible" thing is kind of unbecoming when you start bragging about it.

[DonC]

This strategy also means that Army@Love is no longer a ongoing series.



Neither is Exterminators.

Nor Scalped...

Un-Men...

Midnight Crossing...

But, hey, as long as the issues that do come out are in neat-o collected formats, who needs the extra issues buying the monthly might have brought?

[Ryan Day]

Nor Scalped...

Midnight Crossing...

But, hey, as long as the issues that do come out are in neat-o collected formats, who needs the extra issues buying the monthly might have brought?

Unless I missed something, Scalped is indeed still an ongoing.

And that's actually a good point. These books debuted about the same time.

Scalped is still going despite monthly sales not much above Midnight, presumably (and according to Jason Aaron) based on the sales of the trades.

[dancj]

Scalped is still going despite monthly sales not much above Midnight, presumably (and according to Jason Aaron) based on the sales of the trades.
Exactly.

There probably was a time when people waiting for trades could have damaged the chances of a series surviving, but these days the comic companies are wise to trades and have adjusted their expectations accordingly. A series will get cancelled if it doesn't sell enough between the issues and the trades. If the sales of issues stink, but the trades sell well then the series will survive.

[Ryan Day]

I think the flip side, though, is that Vertigo needs the trades to sell right away, particularly if monthly sales are bad. If they're not making money on the monthlies, they need to make it back on the trades, and it appears there's a relatively narrow window for that - Vinyl Underground got cancelled shortly after the first trade came out, presumably because initial orders were weak.

So I think if you emphasize the "waiting" part of tradewaiting, you're hurting the book's chances of continuing. Pre-ordering is probably a good idea in that case, too, since it gives Vertigo a clear idea of demand. The benefit of monthlies, to the publisher, is that they establish a level of demand and provide regular revenue.

[suttercain]

Neither is Exterminators.

Nor Scalped...



Hold up! Scalped got canceled?!?!?!?

[morganagrom]

Speaking of Scalped, loyal pamphlet purchasers paid about $33 for 1-11, but tradewaiters got the exact same material for $25, saving $8 in the process.

One thing to remember about tradewaiters is they're still buying the same comics, just in a different format. Good luck convincing them to change their comics purchasing choices, either through guilt ("support the books") or attempting to accentuate the positives ("be an early adopter"). If a tradewaiter bought the first 2 volumes of Scalped, why would they want to start buying the pamphlets? The pamphlets wouldn't look right on the shelf next to the 2 paperbacks, and they would cost more and require monthly trips to the comics store.

Besides, there's lots of comics buyers not buying Vertigo comics. If you've got some sort of evangelistic urge, go focus on them. In the case of Scalped, go suggest to the 27 year old guy buing Wolverine and Ghost Rider that if he likes the writer's work, he should drop one and pick up the writer's creator-owned book instead.

However, encouraging pre-ordering and first-day purchases is a very good thing. It shows Vertigo that there is a demand for the product. Many tradewaiters don't stay up on all the comics release dates, so if you know someone tradewaiting Scalped, in-between attempts to "convert" them let them know that Vol. 3 is currently set for an October 1, 2008 release.

[Ryan Day]

Speaking of Scalped, loyal pamphlet purchasers paid about $33 for 1-11, but tradewaiters got the exact same material for $25, saving $8 in the process.

I think we all understand the math... but seriously, man, $8? Over a year? Readers of Y saved $40 over about five years? Whoopee.

I like reading some series in trades because it's a better format, easier to read and store. On the other hand, I like reading some series in single-issue format because they're designed to be read that way, and because I just don't want to wait six months for the next installment of a story.

I can afford to throw away $11 a year on a good monthly book.

[briancwood]

I think we all understand the math... but seriously, man, $8? Over a year? Readers of Y saved $40 over about five years? Whoopee.

I like reading some series in trades because it's a better format, easier to read and store. On the other hand, I like reading some series in single-issue format because they're designed to be read that way, and because I just don't want to wait six months for the next installment of a story.

I can afford to throw away $11 a year on a good monthly book.


I bolded part of your response, since it's right to the point. The added price of buying the singles is because YOU GET TO READ IT FIRST. Classic early adopter situation. There's no big secret or scandal or cash grab. This is what monthly readers get for their money, period.

bri

[Paul Nolan]

The MO of the original poster reminds me of a someone who has been posting these exact same threads for years... across numerous comic web site forums

Give it a rest and realise different people prefer different formats and really don't give a $#!+ about the cost...

[suttercain]

I am one of those people who use to buy the singles, but for monetary reasons as well as for storage reasons I switched to trades. Not saying this works for everyone, but for me, I can wait the 6 to 12 months for the trade... although waiting for 'The Walking Dead' is hard as a mother f**ker.

[Paul Nolan]

Speaking of Scalped, loyal pamphlet purchasers paid about $33 for 1-11, but tradewaiters got the exact same material for $25, saving $8 in the process.

One thing to remember about tradewaiters is they're still buying the same comics, just in a different format. Good luck convincing them to change their comics purchasing choices, either through guilt ("support the books") or attempting to accentuate the positives ("be an early adopter"). If a tradewaiter bought the first 2 volumes of Scalped, why would they want to start buying the pamphlets? The pamphlets wouldn't look right on the shelf next to the 2 paperbacks, and they would cost more and require monthly trips to the comics store.

Besides, there's lots of comics buyers not buying Vertigo comics. If you've got some sort of evangelistic urge, go focus on them. In the case of Scalped, go suggest to the 27 year old guy buing Wolverine and Ghost Rider that if he likes the writer's work, he should drop one and pick up the writer's creator-owned book instead.

However, encouraging pre-ordering and first-day purchases is a very good thing. It shows Vertigo that there is a demand for the product. Many tradewaiters don't stay up on all the comics release dates, so if you know someone tradewaiting Scalped, in-between attempts to "convert" them let them know that Vol. 3 is currently set for an October 1, 2008 release.

This is actually pretty F'in funny.....

I like the first two trades of Scalped so much, that I started buying the series with issue 19...

Aaron's writing and the Ghost Rider hype has put me onto that series aswell...

[josh straightedge]

the 10 paperbacks cost approximately $140. Buying pamphlets 1-60 would have cost approximately $180. Tradewaiters still got to read the entire story and saved $40 in the process.

Y The Last Man, in single issue format, is worth more and can be sold for more than the price of all the trades.

[DonC]

The MO of the original poster reminds me of a someone who has been posting these exact same threads for years... across numerous comic web site forums

Give it a rest and realise different people prefer different formats and really don't give a $#!+ about the cost...


Pretty sure they're the same guy. All this guy posts about is how good waiting for trade paperbacks is. It's actually kind of funny.


And, sorry, guys, I was actually thinking of Loveless not Scalped. Still, the point is that waiting for trades often hurts a comic. Poor sales on the monthlies often leads to poor orders on the trades.

[Generic Eric]

Hey Morganagrom. Think of all the money you would be saving by not even reading these comics.

[Libaax]

I bolded part of your response, since it's right to the point. The added price of buying the singles is because YOU GET TO READ IT FIRST. Classic early adopter situation. There's no big secret or scandal or cash grab. This is what monthly readers get for their money, period.

bri

Who cares about reading first ?

For me some comics doesnt work monthly. I enjoy them more in trades cause of how the story is written. Y The Last Man,100 Bullets are two examples.

Hellblazer is monthy for me because it works better for in single issues. Its more episodic.


We all know these days witout Trades sales Vertigo comics wouldnt survive long. I dont believe in the talk about killing off a comic when you dont buy it monthly. Not after they had it made clear many times trades saves comics specially in Vertigo. They should because the best monthlies i doubt sales even near 20 000.

[snarkbunny]

.
We all know these days witout Trades sales Vertigo comics wouldnt survive long. I dont believe in the talk about killing off a comic when you dont buy it monthly. Not after they had it made clear many times trades saves comics specially in Vertigo. They should because the best monthlies i doubt sales even near 20 000.

Fables sells about 26,000 according to the estimates and Y was selling about 27,000 if I recall correctly.

I think the point that people are trying to make is that the trades would likely not be as cheap as they currently are without the monthlies helping subsidize the initial publishing costs.

[stealthwise]

I bolded part of your response, since it's right to the point. The added price of buying the singles is because YOU GET TO READ IT FIRST. Classic early adopter situation. There's no big secret or scandal or cash grab. This is what monthly readers get for their money, period.

bri

Well... that means something if you actually need to read it chapter by chapter. I bought Y in monthlies because I literally found myself unable to wait from month to month for the next issue. The two months between each issue at the end was killer to me, but I think that my investment was better rewarded than those who waited for the trade. I was kept into the storyline throughout instead of having that long gap between each volume.

However, I gotta say that the newest Vertigo titles don't do the same for me. I could wait years in between each volume of DMZ (no offense, Brian), mostly because they tend to read better as complete storylines rather than as chapters in a longer arc. And at times, it can get frustrating to read a single issue that doesn't feel satisfying in and of itself as part of a longer arc. I noticed this partway through Y, although BKV then sped things up with the single issues focused on specific characters.

Bottom line of this mini-rant, people will choose what they find most economical and/or enjoyable, but it's kind of erroneous to assume that single issue readers get any kind of "bonus" just because they get to read something first.

[Libaax]

Fables sells about 26,000 according to the estimates and Y was selling about 27,000 if I recall correctly.

I think the point that people are trying to make is that the trades would likely not be as cheap as they currently are without the monthlies helping subsidize the initial publishing costs.


Thats great numbers for Vertigo i will bet Trades are much better and i doubt those comics sell 20k every month.

For me its not how cheap it is. Y and co are better read in trades for me.

I dont care how cheap it is when its comics i love Y,HB etc i will get them no matter the prize.

I see what you mean by the monthlies helping initial publishing costs.

I read enough Vertigo monthlies. But the best thing about Vertigo is picking up the trades for comics you havent read because their style work best in trades.

I became comics fan because i saw all those great Vertigo trades of old and new comics.

[Ryan Day]

Who cares about reading first ?

Lots of people do. Why do people buy Harry Potter books in hardcover the day they come out instead of waiting for the paperback? Why line up for Dark Knight on opening weekend when you can wait six months and rent it on DVD for less than half the price?

I think in many cases, discussion of the monthlies fuels sales of trades - by the time the first trade comes out, people have already been talking about the series for a few months, so you have a better idea of whether you want to buy it. (Put another way: How many OGNs do you buy?)

[Libaax]

Lots of people do. Why do people buy Harry Potter books in hardcover the day they come out instead of waiting for the paperback? Why line up for Dark Knight on opening weekend when you can wait six months and rent it on DVD for less than half the price?

I think in many cases, discussion of the monthlies fuels sales of trades - by the time the first trade comes out, people have already been talking about the series for a few months, so you have a better idea of whether you want to buy it. (Put another way: How many OGNs do you buy?)

Good points but i was talking about Vertigo trades not HP or TDK :wink:


OGNs isnt important to me because there arent enough of them. I have the same rule for them as any another comic. If its isnt a team of creators i already enjoy i wait for opinions or just try them if its my kind of story.

You just explained the huge advantage of trades. You know which new series are acclaimed by the time first trade is out because of monthly fans.

No need to waste money on new comics that you arent sure about.

[Ryan Day]

You just explained the huge advantage of trades. You know which new series are acclaimed by the time first trade is out because of monthly fans.

No need to waste money on new comics that you arent sure about.

But this, as well as the financial argument, aren't really advantages of trades. They're advantages of a series that gets published in monthly format and trades - you get the benefits because other people are buying the monthlies. If everyone stopped buying monthlies, these benefits disappear, or are at least reduced.

[Libaax]

But this, as well as the financial argument, aren't really advantages of trades. They're advantages of a series that gets published in monthly format and trades - you get the benefits because other people are buying the monthlies. If everyone stopped buying monthlies, these benefits disappear, or are at least reduced.

I wasnt talking about stop reading the monthlies. No one can read every monthly.

Im talking about the newest comics. You are always hoping for new favorites and no can read everything new just to find a favorite.

You have to gamble on the ones that sounds promising.

I rather take a gamble on trades and make them earn some money then download comics and sampling them that. That makes Vertigo even more in trouble if they are even losing on trade readers. I know many who download comics to sample them to decide if they are worth buying or not.


Its not like Vertigo are losing thousands of monthly readers to trades. Trades usually make people monthly readers. You cant always wait for trades.

[snarkbunny]

I wasnt talking about stop reading the monthlies. No one can read every monthly.
.

You're right Libaax, you weren't talking about stopping the monthlies but other people were bringing up that point.

Also, Ryan is right - the buzz is more an advantage of both monthly and trades format, not for trades alone.

My personal take on this is that people should buy the format they prefer to read, but they should realize that the current economics are based on having both monthlies and trades. If we lose either, then there will be market adjustments to compensate for that.

As for me, as the moment, I'm buying Fables/Jack of Fables in monthlies and trades. (actually the monthly issue and 3 trades each since I am the crazy yet benevolent aunt/cousin that helps supply Fables goodness to my school-going relatives)

Madame Xanadu/Northlanders/House of Mystery in monthlies - and I'm likely to pick up the trades as well given the quality of the work. Okay, I'm planning at least two copies of Northlanders since it will be a great gift for my brother with the degree in archaelogy and love for the vikings. Madame Xanadu is really a wait and see on the trade, because while I've really enjoyed the first two issues - I'm not sure if it's going to be a reread type of story, which is why I buy the trades if I already have the issues. If it's not a reread type story, then off to the recycle bin they go.

I pick up DMZ, 100 Bullets in trade. and I've bought most of the Minx releases and about 1/2? of the vertigo OGNs.

[DeeSnider]

No need to waste money on new comics that you arent sure about.

Actually, this is the exact rationale I use for not "trade waiting". Let's take a Vertigo book I tried and just didn't like, Vinyl Undergound. I spent $3 on a single issue and that was enough to tell me it just wasn't for me. If I'd waited for the trade, that would have cost me $10 to find out. I can think of about half a dozen books this last year I had the same reaction to. Where's the savings there? Even comic reviewers I've learned I respect don't have the exact same taste I do, no one does, so I try books for myself.

Sometimes, later I'll switch to trade if I think it reads better that way, and the book seems stable. That's what I did with Scalped. I bought the first arc in singles, knew I liked the book, but figured it would read better in trade, so I swtiched. I've got no problems about format swtiching, shelf space is limited, so eventually everything I keep gets boxed anyway.

[Libaax]

You're right Libaax, you weren't talking about stopping the monthlies but other people were bringing up that point.

Also, Ryan is right - the buzz is more an advantage of both monthly and trades format, not for trades alone.

My personal take on this is that people should buy the format they prefer to read, but they should realize that the current economics are based on having both monthlies and trades. If we lose either, then there will be market adjustments to compensate for that.

As for me, as the moment, I'm buying Fables/Jack of Fables in monthlies and trades. (actually the monthly issue and 3 trades each since I am the crazy yet benevolent aunt/cousin that helps supply Fables goodness to my school-going relatives)

Madame Xanadu/Northlanders/House of Mystery in monthlies - and I'm likely to pick up the trades as well given the quality of the work. Okay, I'm planning at least two copies of Northlanders since it will be a great gift for my brother with the degree in archaelogy and love for the vikings. Madame Xanadu is really a wait and see on the trade, because while I've really enjoyed the first two issues - I'm not sure if it's going to be a reread type of story, which is why I buy the trades if I already have the issues. If it's not a reread type story, then off to the recycle bin they go.

I pick up DMZ, 100 Bullets in trade. and I've bought most of the Minx releases and about 1/2? of the vertigo OGNs.

The buzz thing is good when you want to read new comics. The thing i said with advantage in trades is why buy 5 single issues when you can buy a trade. Not because the trade is cheaper but the format is better when you are reading that many issues at once.

My biggest reason for trying new comics with trades is that over here getting single issues of comics that are months old is very hard. Specially if they arent superhero. Thats my biggest advantage with trades. I can catch to a comic in days while i would have to wait months why my LCS reorders old single issues for me.

Only 100 Bullets,Y The Last Man have i ever read trades wise because i rather read it than monthly.


I see what you mean with buying trades of comics that you want to reread. I try to buy comics that i enjoy so much that i know i will reread. Not only to catch up.

[ZombieHavoc]

I've switched to trades because it's cheaper.

And, frankly, I buy my trades used on Amazon, so they are even cheaper. Sure, the companies and creators don't get my money directly...but if I had to be paying full price, nobody would be getting my money at all.

I want to support creators, especially the indie guys, but right now, I have to support myself first. Maybe one day when I have more money to burn (which I hope comes sooner than later).

And I could care less about reading it first. I'll wait a year if it means I can buy the trade used for $5 instead of spending $15 -20 on the monthlies.

And sure, if I was only keeping up with one title, it wouldn't be that big of a monetary loss to buy the monthlies...but I do enjoy more than one comic book, you know.

[stealthwise]

Actually, this is the exact rationale I use for not "trade waiting". Let's take a Vertigo book I tried and just didn't like, Vinyl Undergound. I spent $3 on a single issue and that was enough to tell me it just wasn't for me. If I'd waited for the trade, that would have cost me $10 to find out. I can think of about half a dozen books this last year I had the same reaction to. Where's the savings there? Even comic reviewers I've learned I respect don't have the exact same taste I do, no one does, so I try books for myself.


Eh, that doesn't always work for me (and I'm assuming for some others). Reading Army@Love, I wasn't sure if I even liked it until near the middle-end of the first book. The first few single issues of most series often aren't that engrossing, as they tend to consist of the creators establishing their main characters and mileau.

I'll usually give a series one or two trades to see if I like it.

[CoreyB]

Could it be... that different things work for different people?

Nah! I'm sure someone here is wrong.

[dancj]

I think we all understand the math... but seriously, man, $8? Over a year? Readers of Y saved $40 over about five years? Whoopee.
This varies across the Atlantic. Here in England I could pay £2.30 per issue of Y, adding up to £138 or £7 per trade on Amazon, which is half the price. In reality I buy on eBay and always pay under £5 which takes me to something under £50.

Multiply this up for the dozens of different books I read, then in reality (as I have a fixed budget) I'm reading more that twice the amount I could afford to read if I was buying monthly.

And of course I get the added bonus of not having to piss-arse around with bags and sellotape every 22 pages!

[snarkbunny]

And of course I get the added bonus of not having to piss-arse around with bags and sellotape every 22 pages!

I don't really consider that a bonus, because I just don't do that at all...They get tossed in a box until the end of an arc(in case I want to reread) and recycled or they get tossed into the recycle bin immediately. The only ones that stay longer are the ones that I know I want to reread and haven't been tradecollected.

[Sean Walsh]

Say Vertigo were to indeed drop the monthly format and go all trades.......

.....wouldn't TPB sales suffer as a result?

Without those monthly sales to add a little oomph to sales, they'd also be lacking the "word of mouth" factor that helps a series survive - especially Vertigo titles.

SCALPED and others do well in TPB sales because of the monthly series....but without a monthly series to precede it, would a straight-to-TPB book do as well as a TPB collecting a monthly series?

Every time I see something go straight to the bookshelves, I question how well it sells.

So in that respect, I don't think the monthly racket could ever possibly go away.

I am one of those people who use to buy the singles, but for monetary reasons as well as for storage reasons I switched to trades. Not saying this works for everyone, but for me, I can wait the 6 to 12 months for the trade... although waiting for 'The Walking Dead' is hard as a mother f**ker.

Damn straight. It reads very well (if not better than reading it monthly), but the most recent TPB - which was delayed a couple months due to printing issues - was REALLY rough. (But boy, was it worth it. :eek: )

I also somehow manage to wait 6 months (or more) for INVINCIBLE in trades.

[morganagrom]

Lots of people do. Why do people buy Harry Potter books in hardcover the day they come out instead of waiting for the paperback? Why line up for Dark Knight on opening weekend when you can wait six months and rent it on DVD for less than half the price?

I think in many cases, discussion of the monthlies fuels sales of trades - by the time the first trade comes out, people have already been talking about the series for a few months, so you have a better idea of whether you want to buy it. (Put another way: How many OGNs do you buy?)

1. Those buyers get a benefit beyond immediacy. In the case of Harry Potter, the book buyers are paying more, but are also getting the material in what many feel is a nicer format. In the case of Dark Knight, they are paying for the privilege of seeing the film on a large screen, as most moviegoers presumably don't own their own full-sized theater screen.

2. For tradewaiters, every book is an ogn. Do the thousands of people snapping up the $20 Watchmen book really care whether it had ever been serialized?

[morganagrom]

And sure, if I was only keeping up with one title, it wouldn't be that big of a monetary loss to buy the monthlies...but I do enjoy more than one comic book, you know.

That last bit is an excellent point.

Here's the Vertigo pamphlets from a recent solicitation:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17321

UNKNOWN SOLDIER #1 $2.99
AIR #3 $2.99
100 BULLETS #96 $2.99
ARMY@LOVE: THE ART OF WAR #3 $2.99
DMZ #35 $2.99
GREATEST HITS #2 $2.99
FABLES #77 $2.99
JACK OF FABLES #27 $2.99
HELLBLAZER #249 $2.99
HELLBLAZER SPECIAL: CHAS - THE KNOWLEDGE #4 $2.99
HOUSE OF MYSTERY #6 $2.99
MADAME XANADU #5 $2.99
NORTHLANDERS #11 $2.99
SCALPED #22 $2.99
YOUNG LIARS #8 $2.99

Total = $45

If tradewaiting saves a conservative 20%, then a hardcore comics buyer getting each of these serials would save $9 a month, or $108 a year, on Vertigo comics alone.

[NathanBethell]

One thing to remember about tradewaiters is they're still buying the same comics, just in a different format. Good luck convincing them to change their comics purchasing choices, either through guilt ("support the books") or attempting to accentuate the positives ("be an early adopter").

My irony-sense is tingling. So it's okay to evangelize for trades, but not for floppies? Look, I don't really care what format people buy their books in. I buy and enjoy comics in both formats. I am aware that I could save money by going exclusively trade.

However, I personally receive benefits from floppies that a cost-based analysis doesn't account for. These benefits might not seem like benefits to everyone, but they provide me with pleasure. To name just two:

Buying a floppy activates my sense of nostalgia; it connects me to my childhood and my father's childhood.
Buying a floppy keeps a story in my mind longer; there's a real pleasure in anticipating each installment. I've discussed Northlanders, for instance, with my friends for the past eight months. We've argued about its quality, tried to predict where its headed, discussed whether each twist or turn met or let down our expectations. I enjoy the protracted dialogue. The pleasure from *most* trades is little more ephemeral for me.
While you list the ads as a downside, I see them as an upside. They might irritate me at the moment of reading, but I like looking at the ads in comics from the older comics in my collection. Today's ads will capture a moment in pop culture that seems "big" now, but in a decade will seem amusingly quaint. It's funny, for instance, to see how hard Marvel pushed Sleepwalker in the '90s.


For me, these 'intangibles' (among others) make the floppy worth the extra money that I'd save by going exclusively trade. Economics is about more than cash. You insult floppy readers by suggesting that either they can't do arithmetic or that, because the benefits they get from floppies don't matter to you, that they don't matter period.

On a different note, read any good trades lately? Anything I really should check out in the format of my choice?

[Ryan Day]

Say Vertigo were to indeed drop the monthly format and go all trades.......

.....wouldn't TPB sales suffer as a result?

Well, they'd never go "all trades". If Vertigo abandoned the monthly format, you'd likely see two formats for graphic novels:

- Hardcovers, followed by a tpb in about a year (ie. Pride of Baghdad)
- Digests, likely black & white, a la the Minx line.

The trade is rarely going to be the sole format. It's almost always a secondary product.

[morganagrom]

@NathanBethell

You can go around evangelizing the virtue of pamphlets as much as you like, but it's doubtful many tradewaiters would want to make the switch. It sounds like the benefits you personally derive from pamphlet purchasing would not be shared by existing tradewaiters.

Just read the latest DMZ volume from Wednesday. It's worth reading - 6 short stories, flashbacks and character development, and one story has some great Daniel Zezelj art.

(tradewaiters buying DMZ paid approximately $22 less than the cost of the 28 pamphlets - $62 vs. $84)

[morganagrom]

@Ryan Day

Those options are possible, and a third option is to serialize on the web, with ad-revenue support like the television networks do with their programming.

[NathanBethell]

@morganagrom

Look, I don't really care what format people buy their books in.

However, I personally receive benefits from floppies that a cost-based analysis doesn't account for. These benefits might not seem like benefits to everyone, but they provide me with pleasure.

For me, these 'intangibles' (among others) make the floppy worth the extra money that I'd save by going exclusively trade.


If I'm evangelizing, I'm doing a lousy a job of it, you know, by pointing out that these things matter to me and probably don't matter to others. In my world, a person can talk about the things he likes without trying convince others that they should also like them. What's it like in your world?

And why doesn't your statement about how evangelizing won't change the minds of tradewaiters apply to your repeated -- in this forum and in others -- hymn to the almighty paperback? Are you somehow more likely to convince devoted chapbook readers than they are you? What is the point of these threads?

[stealthwise]

One more important thing to note about tradewaiting is that if you wait to order the trades through Amazon or Chapters, you'll save even more money, with the discount varying per title. I find that I'll usually save about $3-10 per volume, depending on the series and when I actually get it.

However, that also means that I'm not supporting my local comic shop, which seems to do ok business, but I know would likely suffer if I were to switch over to trades completely, just as the individual titles often seem to.

It's really a toss-up.

[morganagrom]

@stealthwise

Good point, ordering online is a great way to save a whole bunch more money on paperbacks. There are also plenty of online stores where pamphlet buyers can save 25-35%.

That said, bought online or at a local comics store, tradewaiting still is usually a better deal.

[morganagrom]

100 Bullets is a great example of how tradewaiting can pay off in the long term. So far, there's been 11 paperbacks, with a total cost of approximately $152. Buying the same stories in pamphlet format would have cost approximately $217. The tradewaiter saved about $65 (about 30%).

That's more than enough to walk over to the local comics store and buy all 5 DMZ paperbacks at full cover price.

Not everyone has an infinite comics budget and many people want to buy more than one title. If someone has a $100/month comics budget, tradewaiting can mean being able to buy $25 more comics per month than they could otherwise ($300 per year). That means a tradewaiter might be able to buy support titles like Crossing Midnight or Scalped or The Exterminators where they wouldn't have been able to if they were a pamphlet buyer.

[morganagrom]

Testament vol. 4 came out today, and anyone who bought a copy, as well as the first 3 volumes saved approximately $15 over what it would have cost to buy the 22 pamphlets.

[ultramandingo]

I need people buying the comic and not waiting for the trades. .


......says somebody who knows what hes talking about - unless you want stuff like " criminal " canceled and would rather read dirty mutie books

[NathanBethell]

Dude, nothing will convince him not to tradewait, and nothing will convince him not to post about how much money he's saving on trades.

Just (sarcastically) congratulate him on his financial acumen and move along.

Even if you were an unstoppable force, Morgan's an immovable object.

[noh-varr]

I personally do both I buy some books in trades and some in singles. Some series I just need the next issue the second I'm done with the most recent issue some I need the whole story for it to work and can wait in between complete stories. Plus I just need weekly comics, the web comics I read just aren't enough per week. I could download or look at what my friend reads which would work great for super hero books but I want to read Vertigo and other adult oriented books and reading those on a screen just doesn't work (downloaded Flex Mentallo since I don't have 100 dollars for 4 issues, got to read the story just didn't feel right when it's something I want to flip back and double check things or reread great series of pages) and well my friends just read Marvel books.

Though I am also again buying stuff online, just cause I really like my local comic shop. Already get 10% off and when I ask for anything even though they focus mostly in more mainstream stuff not only will it be there asap but usually they will get an extra copy in case someone else wants it. Great service is beyond more important then saving a buck or two imo. Same goes for finding out what happens next in many series instead of 6 months later (for many series).

Saying all that IF Vertigo went pure trade I wouldn't mind I'd just instead pick those up then. Same goes if they dropped trades all together though my 100 Bullet trades do look damn nice together and really seem perfect for trade format.

[dancj]

Dude, nothing will convince him not to tradewait, and nothing will convince him not to post about how much money he's saving on trades.

If a business model relies on getting people to pay more for a product which they find inferior out of charity then it's a flawed business model.

[Ryan Day]

Brubaker's talking about Marvel, though, which generally has a higher cancellation threshold. Criminal sells better monthly than most of Vertigo's books, which don't seem to have to worry until they slip below 10,000.

[NathanBethell]

If a business model relies on getting people to pay more for a product which they find inferior out of charity then it's a flawed business model.

I agree, and my stance all along has been that people should buy the books they like in the format they like. I don't find floppies inferior; I am willing to pay extra for the intangibles they provide me. And no one should be guilted into buying any product.

I do realize that my last post could be taken the wrong way, I didn't mean to imply that it was a noble goal to try to get Morgan to stop tradewaiting. I just meant to comment on the futility of trying to do so. Sorry if it came out the wrong way.

[DeeSnider]

Testament vol. 4 came out today, and anyone who bought a copy, as well as the first 3 volumes saved approximately $15 over what it would have cost to buy the 22 pamphlets.

I bought the first trade off e-bay for $5, then bought the next five issues online, then dropped the book. So I saved $33.50 over someone who bought all the trades.

Also, my local library has the first four trades of Ex-Machina, so getting them for free cost $49 less than "trade waiting".

So, if tradewaiting =$$$ then "library waiting" =$$$$$$$$$

[morganagrom]

If a business model relies on getting people to pay more for a product which they find inferior out of charity then it's a flawed business model.

Spot on!

These days if a title is cancelled it's probably because not enough people were buying the title in ANY format, not because of the tradewaiters who are buying the paperbacks.

[stealthwise]

Brubaker's talking about Marvel, though, which generally has a higher cancellation threshold. Criminal sells better monthly than most of Vertigo's books, which don't seem to have to worry until they slip below 10,000.

I get Criminal in singles, but mostly because it reads really well that way.

[Lester C.]

I have all my Vertigo books in trades. I buy them online or at my LCS for 25% off so I save a ton of money. And Vertigo fans are far less likely to spoil something online than Marvel and DC fans so when something shocking happens in a 100 bullets trade I'm reading it for the first time.

The only major drawback I have, aside from the obvious pros and cons of trades, is that I feel guilty. I’m vulture you think about it. I let the monthly people spend their hard earned dollars buying and supporting a book. Then after they did all the hard work I sweep in and pick up a trade that wouldn’t have been published if the monthly fans weren’t buying the books month in and month out.

[NathanBethell]

I don't think you should feel guilty, Lester. You're buying the product you want in the format you want. Jason Aaron has made it clear on his own forum that trade sales for Scalped are factored into whether or not the book continues to be published. I'm assuming the same is true of DMZ, Northlanders, etc.

Morganagrom makes a good point in the OP, however, when he says that tradewaiters can help out by buying the trades on their release date. I imagine pre-ordering the trade would be even better. Vinyl Underground, for instance, was cancelled only a week after the first trade was released.

[Lester C.]

Morganagrom you do realize that if enough people took your advice there wouldn't be any trades at all.

[morganagrom]

Where do you get that idea?

A more likely possibility is Vertigo wouldn't bother with the serial pamphlets anymore and just go straight to the books. Possibly hardcover first, followed by the softcovers, in order to double-dip. They could also do online serializations, possibly supported by online ad sales.

[stealthwise]

Where do you get that idea?

A more likely possibility is Vertigo wouldn't bother with the serial pamphlets anymore and just go straight to the books. Possibly hardcover first, followed by the softcovers, in order to double-dip. They could also do online serializations, possibly supported by online ad sales.

No, the most likely idea is that Vertigo would cancel a bunch of their books and be far, far more selective with the types of titles they DID choose to publish. Every single "series" they would go with would basically live or die on the first volume sales, and with no monthlies to expose readers to and no word-of-mouth to build upon, you would likely see an end to serialized storytelling from Vertigo.

[Ryan Day]

You'd probably get something similar to most indie books: Publish an OGN - likely in hardcover first, then paper back 6-12 months later - wait another few months to determine if sales justify a followup, and then commission the writer/artist. So long-term plotting would be difficult, and you'd probably get one new volume a year at most.

There would be exceptions - you could probably count on Brian K. Vaughn's books selling - but you'd have a very different sort of publisher.

[morganagrom]

Unfortunately Vertigo probably won't completely go book-only for a while. The first transition might be publishing less and less mini-series and replacing them with books. Same stories, better format.

[Generic Eric]

Unfortunately Vertigo probably won't completely go book-only for a while. The first transition might be publishing less and less mini-series and replacing them with books. Same stories, better format.

What's wrong with serialization? You would still have the same wait for each new serialized volume as you would one that was commisioned as an original graphic novel. If each vertigo series was published in a huge monthly anthology instead of individual comics would it's existance offend you?

[morganagrom]

What's right with serialization? It puts restraints on creators, forcing them to tell stories into arbitrary length 22 page installments? It leads to filling the comic with ads and results in the consumer paying more money for the product. It also results in delayed publication of the book. For example, if a graphic novel is published in 6 monthly installments, January to June, Veritigo would probably not publish the paperback until September at the earliest, and more likely December. The material was in-hand by June though, so get rid of the serialization and publish it in June.

The Vertigo anthology idea has been floating around forever, but it seems like a non-starter. It would still require creators to break up their stories into arbitrary length installments. It would be more annoying to read the stories in that format than even the pamphlet format because it would mean opening one, reading a section, putting it down, opening another, reading that same story's section, etc. Added up, it would probably wind up costing more if published at full quality.

The only thing that could get it to work would be to publish the anthology at an incredibly low price, on the lowest-grade paper, in black & white, giving the reader a taste of the story, with the color paperback coming later. Would the creators want their work presented at the lowest possible quality when it was designed for higher-quality presentation?

The best choice is for Vertigo to recognize that at the end of the day they're really book publishers and to start acting like it.

Of course until they do, at least tradewaitng continues to save a lot of money.

[Ryan Day]

What's right with serialization? It puts restraints on creators, forcing them to tell stories into arbitrary length 22 page installments?

That's the way life works, sometimes. TV shows forces creators to tell their story in 40-some-minute increments - is that restraint?

Besides, you don't think OGNs have their own restraints? Vertigo's only published one OGN over 136 pages recently - Cairo, at 160 pages, and that was in b&w. That's the economic model that works for them now, so creators are going to be limited to 130 or so pages for any story.

It leads to filling the comic with ads and results in the consumer paying more money for the product.

No.

The ads in the serial lower the price. You don't understand that trades are cheaper because they are a secondary product. Vertigo makes money on the sales and the advertising in the monthly, which allows them to sell the trade at a lower cost.


It also results in delayed publication of the book. For example, if a graphic novel is published in 6 monthly installments, January to June, Veritigo would probably not publish the paperback until September at the earliest, and more likely December. The material was in-hand by June though, so get rid of the serialization and publish it in June.

They would publish it in June, but not in paperback form. They'd publish it in hardcover in June, then the paperback a year or so later. So you'd end up with even more of a delay if you wait for the trade.

The best choice is for Vertigo to recognize that at the end of the day they're really book publishers and to start acting like it.
Of course until they do, at least tradewaitng continues to save a lot of money.

They're definitely moving that way, but you don't seem to fully understand what that means in either economic or production terms.

[Generic Eric]

What's right with serialization?
It has it's benifits. Serialization gives creators a deadline to follow, 22 pages a month. Most creators left up to thier own divices could would produce much fewer pages a month. Editers would be more willing to let deadlines slip because each volume is a more self contained entity. Looking at years of indy comics when creators are left up to thier own devices they tend to use the extra time away from the writi ng desk and drafting board instead of using extra time to create a superior product.

Most original graphic novels I have read have a much slower pace than I prefer. There are less cool moments because there are too many pages of build up. 22 page installments give good chapter breaks instead of each subject and plot typicly blending together. Few original graphic novels have the breakneck pacing that I love in the comic book format.

The Vertigo anthology idea has been floating around forever, but it seems like a non-starter. It would still require creators to break up their stories into arbitrary length installments.

I like the manga format you describe. There are many others that have been produced over the years like the Brtitish weekly and the French full colour monthly magazine. I don't see why Vertigo comics and the like should be maried to one single format. I like differant fomats because each one can do a differant thing and inspire more interesting comic book stories.

Of course until they do, at least tradewaitng continues to save a lot of money.

Saving money is less important than a really good story. If Original Graphic Novels are one way of creating a story, they should not be the only way it happens. Publishers publish first to make mony for themselves. If they create cool comicbooks or give you a good reading bargain, that is only a secondary concern.

[morganagrom]

So consumers should get a more expensive, less ideal product because creators are can't keep schedules and editors aren't good at keeping their creators on track? Not sure if this is true, but if it were, then that would make that anthology idea even more of a logistical nightmare.

There is no reason creators cannot provide that chaptered breakneck feel in books. It just means structuring the work like it was chaptered. That doesn't mean all of the chapters have to be exactly 22 pages.

Saving money is not the only reasons tradewaiters tradewait. It is however certainly a benefit. Are there any comics published by Vertigo where tradewaiters get less than the full benefit of the story? Even if the story is one that reads better over time, that doesn't mean the pamphlet purchaser gains some extra benefit from being forced to wait (assuming the ads aren't a benefit). The tradewaiter can put down the book and pick it up at their leisure. If they want to wait an entire month between chapters of the book, that's their prerogative. If they want to wait a week, a day, or not at all, those options are available too. More options are better, yes?

And the money is nice too.

[Ryan Day]

No one, at any point, has suggested anyone buy a product they consider inferior. People have arguing (primarily) two points:

1. Not everyone considers the monthly an inferior format.

2. Many of the benefits of "tradewaiting" will be reduced, if not disappear completely, if single issues were discontinued.

[Generic Eric]

It's not just about the consumer. The publisher and creators might be furnishing the products you enjoy but they are going to get thier cut before you get your read on. Publishing in multiple formats over time gets these stories a visibility better than simple word of mouth generated from a one time publication cycle. Differant formats for differant customers. Singles work the direct market, trades work for bookstore and deluxe hardcovers for deep discount online market.

Singles are a great way to test the market for new concepts or revamps of older company owned characters. Only about half of these should even be reprinted in a more permanet format like a tpb or hardcover. It is also less expensive outlay of resources.

[morganagrom]

No one, at any point, has suggested anyone buy a product they consider inferior. People have arguing (primarily) two points:

1. Not everyone considers the monthly an inferior format.

2. Many of the benefits of "tradewaiting" will be reduced, if not disappear completely, if single issues were discontinued.

1. Then they can keep buying the pamphlets for as long as they're published, and the tradewaiters can keep saving money.

2. That's cool - it'll have been fun while it lasted, but at the same time it'll mean those former tradewaiters would be able get their comics earlier, and still in what they feel is a better format.

[DonC]

There's an old adage is business morganagrom seems to have never heard of: "If there's money to be made, people will be making it."

If DC/Vertigo thought an ongoing series of original graphic novels would turn a profit, they would try it. The fact that there isn't an ongoing series of original graphic novels proves that the experts (read: not some dude whining about monthly comics on the Internet) don't think there's money to made. That should tell you something.

[morganagrom]

It's not just about the consumer. The publisher and creators might be furnishing the products you enjoy but they are going to get thier cut before you get your read on. Publishing in multiple formats over time gets these stories a visibility better than simple word of mouth generated from a one time publication cycle. Differant formats for differant customers. Singles work the direct market, trades work for bookstore and deluxe hardcovers for deep discount online market.

Singles are a great way to test the market for new concepts or revamps of older company owned characters. Only about half of these should even be reprinted in a more permanet format like a tpb or hardcover. It is also less expensive outlay of resources.

Depends on who you're talking to. Tradewaiters often don't have the same sense of "loyalty" or need to "support a book" that can be found in many pamphlet purchasers.

Do pamphlets really work for the direct market? Direct market retailers seem to be able to sell paperbacks and hardcovers just fine, even with competition like the large chain bookstores and online retailers.

Pamphlets are an expensive way of testing new concepts. Better to put it online and see what is more popular. No printing, transportation or distribution costs. Also, the costs of publishing 6 pamphlets may well be more than publishing the same story in a single book - 5 additional pieces of cover art, additional transportation weight for all those ads, which take up almost a third of the pamphlet's weight, increased printing press time, etc.

(no, there's been plenty enough revamps - not that all of them are bad, but why water down original ideas to make them fit into a revamp)

Who is to decide which books are "worthy" of a permanent editon? The pamphlet buyers? That's silly - the tradewaiters are the ones who buy more permanent editions anyway. Why give up their money, since they're not going to buy the pamphlets?

[morganagrom]

@DonC

1. That's circular logic.

2. Under that theory no one would ever try a new strategy. Sometimes conditions change and what might not have worked before may work in the future.

For example, about 15 years ago, maybe more, DC published a paperback of the first volume of Grant Morrison's Doom Patrol while he was still the series author. At the time DC's paperback line was very small. For whatever reason, DC didn't follow up with a sequel. Was it because DC misjudged interest and the book didn't sell well at all? Was it because there were about 25 issues missing between the end of that first volume and the current issue on the stand? Was it because at the time there was an attitude that paperbacks were perceived as being only for the hard-to-find early issues and back issues were easily found?

Who knows, but a decade later DC started reprinting Morrison's Doom Patrol in paperbacks and apparently they did well enough to justify reprinting his entire run.

(It wasn't just Doom Patrol - there was the same pattern for his Animal Man run)

If DC didn't think they could make money before, why did it decide it could make money later?

Perhaps it was a change in the market. Perhaps it was a change in consumer perception. Whatever it was, it resulted in DC taking a strong position in book publication.

What's the future going to be like? Apparently pamphlet publishing may still be a viable concern, but for how long? There's already a growing class of consumers who just won't buy serial pamphlets anymore. There's another growing class of consumers who like following serial stories online, and will buy print books of those series but don't buy pamphlets. Meanwhile the trends on MOST non-event pamphlets is to go down in sales while overall book trends are up. You draw your own conclusion.

[DonC]

"But a decade later...?"

We aren't talking about ten years ago or ten years from now. Here, today, the market can not sustain an ongoing series of OGNs. Not full color, full sized books. If it could, then someone would be doing it. The people making these decisions know a hell of a lot more about the economics of comics than you do.

Ten years from now? Maybe. Things change; ask me again in ten years. But right now, it isn't profitable. I don't know why that concept is so hard for you to grasp.

[morganagrom]

Again with the circular logic. Why?

Besides, it's already started.

[Paul McEnery]

"But a decade later...?"

We aren't talking about ten years ago or ten years from now. Here, today, the market can not sustain an ongoing series of OGNs. Not full color, full sized books. If it could, then someone would be doing it. The people making these decisions know a hell of a lot more about the economics of comics than you do.

Ten years from now? Maybe. Things change; ask me again in ten years. But right now, it isn't profitable. I don't know why that concept is so hard for you to grasp.

I'm quite fascinated by how wrong both of you are.

I mean, for a start, the market is sustaining ongoing series of OGNs, especially in Europe, where the market for OGNs is much, much larger.

And I imagine that Freakangels will do rather well in November; and will continue to do rather well.

OTOH, I'm really not in any way understanding why liking TPBs means you really really need the floppy to die; since it's a good sales and promotional tool, and theoretically subsidises the cost of TPBs -- though I'm not entirely sold on that argument.

[DonC]

I'm quite fascinated by how wrong both of you are.

I mean, for a start, the market is sustaining ongoing series of OGNs, especially in Europe, where the market for OGNs is much, much larger.

The American market and the European market are two different things.

And I imagine that Freakangels will do rather well in November; and will continue to do rather well.

My understanding is that FreakAngels reprints online comics. It is known to its readers.

[Generic Eric]

Do pamphlets really work for the direct market? Direct market retailers seem to be able to sell paperbacks and hardcovers just fine, even with competition like the large chain bookstores and online retailers.

It depends. Most of my local shops cannot be arsed to keep a series of trades in stock. They usually just point me towards Amazon.com because they cannot compete with that level of deep discounting. Besides a couple of perenial books like Watchmen and the trades are treated as a one time thing like pamphlets.

Pamphlets are an expensive way of testing new concepts. Better to put it online and see what is more popular. No printing, transportation or distribution costs. Also, the costs of publishing 6 pamphlets may well be more than publishing the same story in a single book - 5 additional pieces of cover art, additional transportation weight for all those ads, which take up almost a third of the pamphlet's weight, increased printing press time, etc.

It's true that more options are becoming available. Maybe you should get into publishing with all the money you are saving by waiting for the trade.

Who is to decide which books are "worthy" of a permanent editon? The pamphlet buyers? That's silly - the tradewaiters are the ones who buy more permanent editions anyway. Why give up their money, since they're not going to buy the pamphlets?

So you are trying to say that there is no easy way to judge the wheat form the chaff? Pamplet buyers and reviewers generate the buzz months in advance of the collected edition. They are the trend setters.

I

[morganagrom]

@Paul McEnery

Not only the BD - in the US, lots of people buy serial original paperbacks. OK, granted, they were serialized as pamphlets, but they buy them as if they weren't. Pride of Baghdad and Y the Last Man vol. 1 - as far as many buyers are concerned they were only ever published as books.

You're spot on about Freakangels. The Foglios seem to do quite well with Girl Genius too. Out of curiousity, do people who care about the distinctions between "GN's" and "OGN's" care whether a work was previously serialized online?

@DonC

The American market and the European market are two different things. (Why? Because they're two different things? Circular logic again.)

"My understanding is that FreakAngels reprints online comics. It is known to its readers." Yes, and that's pretty much the point. If Freakangels can serialize online, why not a Vertigo book? (two different things?)

@Generic Eric

1. Sounds like your comics store is rather behind the times. That's too bad.

2. A lot of that saved money goes back into buying additional comics that might not have been otherwised purchased but for the money saved by tradewaiting.

3. That may have been the case a decade ago, but today publishers don't seem to make their final decisions based on pamphlet sales alone. They factor in paperback sales too, and for a book that sells low as pamplets early paperback orders can be what makes or breaks a series. Hence, Scalped a low-ordered pamphlet series that is a strong paperback seller survives and Vinyl Underground which didn't seem to find a market with pamphlets OR paperbacks got cancelled.

[DonC]

@DonC

The American market and the European market are two different things. (Why? Because they're two different things? Circular logic again.)

"My understanding is that FreakAngels reprints online comics. It is known to its readers." Yes, and that's pretty much the point. If Freakangels can serialize online, why not a Vertigo book? (two different things?)


Wow. You couldn't have missed the point any worse if you were a stormtrooper trying to shoot Princess Leia.

Something being popular in Europe does not mean it will be popular in America. Is that clear enough for you? Or do I need to post a video of David Hasselhoff singing?

Second, my point about FreakAngels is that it is not an original graphic novel. It reprints an online story. It is known to its readers. They have more than likely read some, if not all, of the story before deciding to purchase the collected edition. If you eliminate monthly comics, you eliminate the main outlet fans have for trying out a series before they jump into the deep end. They can purchase one or two issues, then decide whether they want to get more. It costs $6, instead of $10-$20 buying a trade would.

[morganagrom]

@DonC

1. You are talking about how different cultures may prefer different content, but that doesn't speak to the issue of format. Europe may have been a better audience for the music of David Hasslehoff than America, but both countries sold music content in the same delivery format, CDs.

Content is not the same thing as format.

2. Does it really matter how a work was originally presented? Tradewaiters generally don't make such distinctions. Most don't avidly follow a story's publication history. They buy the books regardless of whether they were ever serialized, and to them every book is "original."

3. Why is it that online serialization works and is appropriate for Freakangels, but not for a Vertigo book? You say that pamphlets are the fans' outlet for trying new work and are a cheaper source because they only have to spend $3-6 rather than $10-20. Besides the issue that they're buying the work inturrupted in ads, and if they really like it they'll have to double-dip if they want the nicer paperback, that $3-6 is still more expensive than the $0 they'd pay for trying out webserials like Freakangels. Wouldn't webserialization be more consumer friendly?

[Generic Eric]

1. You are talking about how different cultures may prefer different content, but that doesn't speak to the issue of format. Europe may have been a better audience for the music of David Hasslehoff than America, but both countries sold music content in the same delivery format, CDs.

Did Europe switch over to strait to trade from serialization? No such luck. Euirope is not one entity reaching a single solution. A popular format there is the Album. 32 -64 pages long. No way in hell would that be considered a GN by the average American reader. Donald duck comics are published weekly in Holland at over 600,000 copies an issue. 2000ad and the Beano are still going strong in the U.K. as weeklies.Italy has a perchant for monthly digests collecting various raunchy adventure strips. I really don't know much of shit about the entire European comic market. It seems i know a little more than you. The video did not kill the radiostar and Television did not surplant the movie theatre experience. Single pamphlet comics are not going away because they do not need to.

[kane]

I have to admit i do not really understand the point of the thread. Trades are cheaper and they have no ads etc. I get it. But still i prefer to buy monthly issues.

What is the problem? People like me who prefer to read the monthlies buy the monthy issues,. read them sooner than the trade buyers and pay more, other people buy trades later and pay less. Everybody should be happy, so what is the purpose of this anti-monthlies crusade?

[DonC]

@DonC

1. You are talking about how different cultures may prefer different content, but that doesn't speak to the issue of format. Europe may have been a better audience for the music of David Hasslehoff than America, but both countries sold music content in the same delivery format, CDs.

Content is not the same thing as format.

See what Eric said about different formats in Europe.

2. Does it really matter how a work was originally presented? Tradewaiters generally don't make such distinctions. Most don't avidly follow a story's publication history. They buy the books regardless of whether they were ever serialized, and to them every book is "original."

3. Why is it that online serialization works and is appropriate for Freakangels, but not for a Vertigo book? You say that pamphlets are the fans' outlet for trying new work and are a cheaper source because they only have to spend $3-6 rather than $10-20. Besides the issue that they're buying the work inturrupted in ads, and if they really like it they'll have to double-dip if they want the nicer paperback, that $3-6 is still more expensive than the $0 they'd pay for trying out webserials like Freakangels. Wouldn't webserialization be more consumer friendly?

Once again, you bring up the issue of economics. Yes, posting something online for free is cheaper than selling it as a monthly comic. But would web advertising cover the cost of producing the comic? The writer, penciller, inker, colorist and letterer would still want to be paid even if the book is given away. And most would not be able to hold off until the collected edition is printed.

It's cool that Avatar is trying a new format, but it's still way too early to tell if it will be a success. The comic magazine has been around for over 100 years. It's a proven quantitiy.

[morganagrom]

@Generic Eric

Who knows what road the Europeans took, but they're further along than the US market is. The US market will get there eventually, and sooner is better than later.

Those Donald Duck comics usually aren't simply parts of 5-6 part arcs. Maybe a serial over 3 comics, with lots of supplementary material. Slightly different publishing model.

Also, the television/movie analogy isn't parallel - for one, most people don't have 20-foot screens in their home. Pamphlet comics, on the other hand are generally the same dimensions as the paperbacks, and don't usually offer anything the paperbacks don't (unless you consider ad breaks a supplement).

The pamphlets won't go away all at once, and it might be a long time until they go away entirely. However, if they are published and less and less people are interested in paying a premium to buy them, at some point a tipping point will be reached.

@kane

True, the discussion has shifted somewhat. It doesn't change the fact that as things currently stand now the pamphlet purchasers get to spend a whole bunch of extra money to buy advertisements and the tradewaiters get to save a lot of money which they can pocket or spend on a lot more comics. So in that regard everyone gets what they want and should be happy.

@DonC

Would web advertising cover the creative and editorial costs? Who knows? That would be a question worth exploring. Currently, pamphlets sold through the direct market bring in, what, 40% of cover to the publisher, with half of that going toward printing and transportation costs. Anyone have some detailed numbers to contribute to the discussion?

Just because the pamphlet format has been around for a long time doesn't mean it hasn't somewhat outlived its usefulness in certain areas. Many, if not most, of those early comics pamphlets had multiple short stories, and were usually all done-in-one. Now, the format is similar, but the contents are so far apart. Today, the SERIAL pamphlet offers only a portion of a story. Who buys their entertainment like that today? Who goes and buys single chapters of a book at a time (not serialized in magazines where there is a lot of additional content, but 10 page chapter sections)? Movie tickets for a single scene of a full-feature movie? Songs a verse at at time?

As for proven quantities, how much more proof is needed? Non-event comic pamphlets sales are going down and paperback sales are rising. More and more people are buying comics in bookform without feeling the need to sample the story by purchasing it as pamphlets a section at a time. There are obviously a few exceptions, but that's the general trend.

[morganagrom]

A couple interesting pamphlet vs. book stories this week:

Here's an example of a creator being told to alter his original vision to fit into the constraints of serialization.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080819-PCRussell.html

"PCR: I'm almost finished with Gaiman's The Dream Hunters. (There’s) 123 pages in the four-issue adaptation. I originally designed it as a 120-page single book, but soon after the powers that be declared they wanted it to run as a series first.

Luckily, the breaks came at just the right moments in the stories and with the addition of “splash” pages it came out ok. The extra splash pages will be dropped from the collection and probably run in the back with sketchbook material."

On the other hand, here's a creator who decides to not worry about the artificial constraints of serialization and just publish the book using whatever length chapters he wants.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080821-GuyDavis.html

"GD: Well, I guess the big difference for me and the main reason I wanted to start doing it this way was so I could make the chapters as long and short as I wanted without trying to fit each part into the 24-32 page comic format – and I mean that originally each chapter was a full single issue comic that was later collected into a TPB.

So now with the OGN, some chapters might be 10 pages and others 40, I'm letting the story tell it and not the format and I personally really like that pacing for it. I also think it reads better all in one without the wait between monthly issues, there's just the longer wait between the full books."

Note how the second commentator in the article thought the Marquis was an unserialized story. More and more people are only ever buying their comics as books, and seem to pay less and less attention to its original method of publication.

[Generic Eric]

Note how the second commentator in the article thought the Marquis was an unserialized story. More and more people are only ever buying their comics as books, and seem to pay less and less attention to its original method of publication.

This is also evidence that the market is growing from new readers not just those whom might be abandoning the pamphlet market.

Why is it that online serialization works and is appropriate for Freakangels

Lets get back into Freak Angels. It does not stand alone in a vacuum. Freak Angels is not serialized on the to generate quick cash. It is an advertisement towards new markets like web comic viewers and others whom like science fiction and horror stories. Avatar press uses freak Angels to help advertise the four ongoing Warren Ellis comic books that they publish, future projects by said creator, trade collection of past works and partly the various projects under the Avatar press banner. Warren Ellis is a major pillar to thier company, this webcomic is not meant to surplant thier pamphlet comics but to compliment them.

Who knows what road the Europeans took, but they're further along than the US market is.

They tend to publish comics with alot of full frontal nudity and emoness then over the top violence that we Americans like. At least thats the impression I get from reading alot of Heavy Metal magazine. At least Tin Tin and Asterisk are kind of fun. Cough. I'm not getting where exactly how they are further along in much of anything. They are alot like America because Manga Outsells much of thier domesticly produce comics. So obviously massive black and white magazines featuring multiple storie per volume is the ultimate solution to all comic publishing concerns.:rolleyes:

[Generic Eric]

Wait a minute......



What's the point of this thread again?

[Ryan Day]

A popular format there is the Album. 32 -64 pages long. No way in hell would that be considered a GN by the average American reader.

Not to mention they're frequently oversized and in hardcover. The North American market would run screaming from any project like that.

[Paul McEnery]

Something being popular in Europe does not mean it will be popular in America.

Yeah, but really, who cares. That's utterly irrelevant to the matter at hand, which is how you bring your product to market. To which the answer is obvious: any way which can make money.


Second, my point about FreakAngels is that it is not an original graphic novel.

Don't be silly, of course it is.

That it's been serialized online in advance of publication doesn't change that one bit.


If you eliminate monthly comics, you eliminate the main outlet fans have for trying out a series before they jump into the deep end.

So what?

When The Strand and the like ceased publication, novelists like Dickens and Hardy no longer serialized their novels in advance of publication.

This does not seem to have greatly ruined the market for novelists.

[Paul McEnery]

A couple interesting pamphlet vs. book stories this week:

Here's an example of a creator being told to alter his original vision to fit into the constraints of serialization.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080819-PCRussell.html

"PCR: I'm almost finished with Gaiman's The Dream Hunters. (There’s) 123 pages in the four-issue adaptation. I originally designed it as a 120-page single book, but soon after the powers that be declared they wanted it to run as a series first.

Luckily, the breaks came at just the right moments in the stories and with the addition of “splash” pages it came out ok. The extra splash pages will be dropped from the collection and probably run in the back with sketchbook material."

On the other hand, here's a creator who decides to not worry about the artificial constraints of serialization and just publish the book using whatever length chapters he wants.

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080821-GuyDavis.html

"GD: Well, I guess the big difference for me and the main reason I wanted to start doing it this way was so I could make the chapters as long and short as I wanted without trying to fit each part into the 24-32 page comic format – and I mean that originally each chapter was a full single issue comic that was later collected into a TPB.

So now with the OGN, some chapters might be 10 pages and others 40, I'm letting the story tell it and not the format and I personally really like that pacing for it. I also think it reads better all in one without the wait between monthly issues, there's just the longer wait between the full books."

Note how the second commentator in the article thought the Marquis was an unserialized story. More and more people are only ever buying their comics as books, and seem to pay less and less attention to its original method of publication.

And this, too, doesn't matter two hoots.

One might as well complain that Shakespeare's stories are all dialogue.

[morganagrom]

@Generic Eric

Even if existing readers aren't abandoning the pamphlet format (though many actually are) it means the overall percentage of comics readers care less and less about the format.

As for Freakangels, yes it serves multiple purposes - serializing a story and directing readers to other work by Ellis. That is smart. So what is stopping Vertigo from attempting someingthing similar, especially since much of their pamphlet serial sales continue to fall?

@Ryan Day

What's your point? So print the books in softcover at standard North American comics size. Problem solved.

@Paul McEnery

It matters in that the comics industry should strive to bring creators' work to market in the format intended by the creators and that best suits the work - not chop it up to fit some arbitrary serialized page length. At least in this case it's pretty clear that Vertigo will eventually be doing the right thing down the road.

It does bring up an interesting point - with the PCR book, it's not like PCR is an unknown quantity. People know a book will eventually be released. So why would people want to buy the work in a format the author didn't intend knowing the intended format will eventually be published?

[Ryan Day]

What's your point? So print the books in softcover at standard North American comics size. Problem solved.


Here's where you keep running into problems. You say things like "Vertigo should start acting like a book publisher." But you know what book publishers do?

They publish their books in hardcover first, then - sometimes after several years - release a softcover version. Which is what Vertigo has done with their OGNs. Look around - there are very few full-colour, professional cailbre OGNs released exclusively in trade paperback.

Almost everywhere in the world, comics appear either in hardcover or serialization prior to seeing print in paperback.

[morganagrom]

OK, so Vertigo could do what many book publishers do - publish a hardcover version followed by a softcover version. Either way, no serialization necessary.

Also, when it comes to serialization, it seems like the comics industries in other countries serialize in a way where the consumer pays less, not more, for the serialization.

[Jankenstein]

Not to mention they're frequently oversized and in hardcover. The North American market would run screaming from any project like that.


Which is a crying shame. I gladly pay extra for oversized hardcovers.

My inner child laughs with glee and throws rocks at digest sized books. I'm not a teenager that has to fit a disposable product in a backpack on the Tokyo subway system. I like an attractive book with good production values that will last for years.

[Ryan Day]

My inner child laughs with glee and throws rocks at digest sized books. I'm not a teenager that has to fit a disposable product in a backpack on the Tokyo subway system. I like an attractive book with good production values that will last for years.

It's all about finding the right format for the book. Some art works perfectly fine in digest format, and if you can sell people cheap and portable comics, go for it. But other books benefit from larger pages and glossy paper, so that's what you do.

One of the problems I have with the monthly format is that it's so in-between. It's not cheap, but it's not exactly long-lasting. I think many of Marvel and DC's books could be printed on lesser-quality paper, but with a higher page count - like instead of printing three issues of Spider-Man every month, print one 64-page volume for $6.00 or something, with some columns and previews or something.

Of course, many comic fans get obsessed with Price, as opposed to Value - ie. complaining about the price of Jeff Smith's Shazam book, even though one nice-looking issue was totally equivalent to two ad-ridden floppies. I miss the old days when publishers seemed more willing to experiment with the format of the monthlies.

[morganagrom]

That's a good point about the pamphlet format - it's not cheap at all, and as evidenced by this thread, it often winds up costing more to buy the exact same stories in the pamphlet format. The comic pamphlet used to be a cheaply made, inexpensive object that would get thrown away. Now it's a cheaply made, expenisive object that is intended to be kept. What happened there?

Also, if the comics publishers want people buying the stories as pamphlets, why do they make the paperbacks such a better deal?

For instance, Shazam! book - anyone who bought the 4 parts paid a total of about $24, but then DC went and released an oversized hardcover of the whole story for only $6 more. Now, there are those who have no need for the whole oversized hardcover format, but there are many who would find that to be a great deal, possibly even some of those who bought the installments. Why does DC do that - reward the early adopters by offering the waiters a better deal down the line?

Of course, the tradewaiters who don't care about oversized hardcovers get the best deal of all, because amazon says March 10, 2009 will see a softcover of the story for only $20, $4 less than the price of buying the parts.

Which is almost half of what it would cost to buy a copy of Northlanders vol. 1 - see, it all ties together.

[DonC]

Most readers know they're paying a few dollars more in the long run. They just don't care. I don't see why you do, either.

[morganagrom]

Maybe they do, maybe they don't. Sometimes adding up the numbers reveals a different perspective.

[DonC]

Again, what do you care if some complete stranger pays an extra couple of bucks for a book? Monthly fans aren't spamming the Independent board with countless posts about how the monthlies for Hellboy, B.P.R.D., and The Goon are cheaper than the trades.

[morganagrom]

That certainly would be an interesting conversation. Anyone know why DC usually gives such a great price break on the paperbacks while Dark Horse and IDW often price their paperbacks at a premium?

[DonC]

You're avoiding the perfectly valid question: Why do you care which format people read their books in? Do you own stock in amazon.com? Did your older brother beat you with a rolled up copy of GI Joe? Are you hoping a swimsuit model will come up to you and say, "Oh, morganagrom, that $3 I saved on Fables allowed my grandmother to have life-saving surgery. Allow me to thank you with a night of passion you'll never forget?"

[morganagrom]

haha - that's very funny.

[morganagrom]

Speaking of Fables, there's a series where tradewaiting can pay off a bit.

Buying the pamphlets 1-69 and The Last Castle would have cost pamphlet buyers approximately $193. However, tradewaiting would have only cost $155 to get all that, as well as short prose story not available in the pamphlets. Tradewaiting Fables saves appoximately $38 so far.

And then there's the 1001 Nights of Snowfall Hardcover for $20. Tradewaiting that would save another $5 since the softcover's only $15.

Tradewaiting Fables is an extra $43 (so far) to spend on other comics or put in the bank.

Or, you could buy the pamphlets and not have the extra $43. Either way, both options are on the table.

[Generic Eric]

Speaking of Fables, there's a series where tradewaiting can pay off a bit.

Buying the pamphlets 1-69 and The Last Castle would have cost pamphlet buyers approximately $193. However, tradewaiting would have only cost $155 to get all that, as well as short prose story not available in the pamphlets. Tradewaiting Fables saves appoximately $38 so far.

And then there's the 1001 Nights of Snowfall Hardcover for $20. Tradewaiting that would save another $5 since the softcover's only $15.

Tradewaiting Fables is an extra $43 (so far) to spend on other comics or put in the bank.

Or, you could buy the pamphlets and not have the extra $43. Either way, both options are on the table.


That 43 dollars could'nt buy the joy and entertainment I got from reading those stories in Fables over the years. I also enjoyed my weekly trip to the comic shop. I pity those few that tradewaited the 2001 Nights of Snowfall hardcover GN.

Morganagrom, you might think of your tradewaiting as frugality. It's really coming off as being Miserly. Your posting about Vertigo comics and saying to everyone about all this cash your saving instead of talking about what you enjoy about said comics.

[snarkbunny]

That 43 dollars could'nt buy the joy and entertainment I got from reading those stories in Fables over the years. I also enjoyed my weekly trip to the comic shop. I pity those few that tradewaited the 2001 Nights of Snowfall hardcover GN.



Quote for Truth! I buy Fables monthly and the TPs, and the fun I have speculating on what will happen between issues is worth far, far more to me.

morganagrom, if the only thing you can talk about is how you can save a few bucks with a trade over buying monthly, you may want to give up comics completely because you certainly don't give the impression that you enjoy them.

[morganagrom]

@Generic Eric

It is good that you feel the extra $43 you spent on the Fables serial pamphlets and the hardcover were worth it. Obviously not everyone shares your values or there wouldn't be tradewaiters and softcover buyers.

@snarkbunny

Quite the contrary - tradewaiting means being able to buy even more comics to enjoy. In these tough economic times the lowered costs from tradewaiting can mean being able to buy the comics as compared to not being able to buy them at all, or being able to use the extra cash to try out other books which might not have otherwise been purchased. That is certainly an alternative to double dipping, purchasing comics for effectively 175% of the pamphlet cover price.

[morganagrom]

@Generic Eric

Also, why do you pity the tradewaiters who passed on the 1001 Nights hardcover? They got the exact same story and saved a few bucks in the process.

[Generic Eric]

@Generic Eric

Also, why do you pity the tradewaiters who passed on the 1001 Nights hardcover? They got the exact same story and saved a few bucks in the process.

18 month wait to save 3 bucks 36 cents, It is also a lovely hardcover. I get the stories sooner and in a better package.:smile:

I bought 2 hardcovers for about 26$ getting the free shipping from amazon.com. you would have to buy 3 softcovers costing about 30 $ to recieve this same free shipping from amazon.com. I spent less And got books that I apreciate the packaging as much as the contents.

[morganagrom]

Better package? Different maybe, but better? It's just cardboard, and the guts are the exact same thing.

As for spending less, how do you figure that? The softcovers on amazon are discounted too, and tradewaiters often do buy multiple books per order, since they are saving all that money from not buying the pamphlets.

[Generic Eric]

Morganagrom, a hardcover is more than just a piece of sturdy cardboard piecing together pages of a book. They are usually a great peice of book design. A graphic art that I appreciate. The Absolute Sandman volumes a sight to behold, to touch, hold and leaf through thier pages. They smell nice also. Price is not my only consideration for which edition of a book I purchase.

What Vertigo series do you follow anyways? Do you own alot of Softcover collections? How many? What are your top 5 Vertigo ongoing titles or GNs. What tpbs are you most excited about that are slated for futre release?

With all the money you save on trade paper backs would it apall you to know I just donated over a hundred of tpbs to my local library?

[morganagrom]

"a hardcover is more than just a piece of sturdy cardboard piecing together pages of a book."

True, it's two pieces of cardboard.

"They are usually a great peice of book design."

Most of which are often incorporated into the paperback versions.

"A graphic art that I appreciate."

Yay for you!

"The Absolute Sandman volumes a sight to behold, to touch, hold and leaf through thier pages."

They are also well-edited and don't contain many typos or grammatical errors.

"They smell nice also."

How do they taste?

"Price is not my only consideration for which edition of a book I purchase."

Clearly. Other people may have different values.

"What Vertigo series do you follow anyways? Do you own alot of Softcover collections? How many?"

Nosy much?

"What are your top 5 Vertigo ongoing titles or GNs."

Why make lists?

"What tpbs are you most excited about that are slated for futre release?"

Looking forward to checking out Northlanders. The first volume comes out comes out in about a month, and is a $14 savings over the cost of buying the story as pamphlets. ($10 vs. $24)

"With all the money you save on trade paper backs would it apall you to know I just donated over a hundred of tpbs to my local library?"

That was a very nice thing to do. Libraries are a valuable resource.

[Generic Eric]

Nosy much?
So, you don't actually read vertigo books you are just being wierd. You don't give the impression that you read, own or enjoy any of these books. Instead are just trying to argue very obvious economic argument. No duh waiting for trades is cheaper. Thanks for sharing something every comics reader is already well aware of.

[morganagrom]

Since you like the economics, here's some more.

The entire Preacher series, with all the related stories, would have cost pamphlet purchasers $200. However, a tradewaiter can go out today, and buy the entire series of 9 paperbacks for $147. That's a savings of $53 which can buy a whole lot of Vertigo paperbacks to read and enjoy. For example, that amount saved would cover the first 4 volumes of DMZ, with $4 left over.

[Paul Nolan]

sometimes someone's one man crusade can labour a point so much that it will push people in the opposite direction....

I'd love to see a photo of MorganagroM's graphic novel collection.... have you filled that first shelf yet?


oh by the way be nice to me..... me buying the "pamphlets" is subsidising your collected editions.

no more "pamplets", no more subsidies, so maybe you should just let things lie, and let people do what they want..... :tongue:

[briancwood]

sometimes someone's one man crusade can labour a point so much that it will push people in the opposite direction....


morganagrom peddles this "argument" of his all over the web, in at least six different forums that I know of (and its not like I go looking - he's hard to miss). He's been banned in several, and no sane argument of "different people like different things" will shut him up. We've all learned to just ignore him, and he'll soon find new stomping grounds.

bri

[stealthwise]

If one waits for a period of anywhere between several years and several decades, that person just might be able to find the entire run of Preacher at a flea market for only $9. That's a HUMONGOID savings!

[MartinRedmond]

Buying floppies is a waste of money. If you dislike a TPB at least you can trade it back or resell it. A floppy has no value. I'm stuck with it if I hate it. If it's a mini I preordered ages ago, I'm stuck buying the remainder of a title I have no interest in or the retailer is stuck with it.

I'd love it if Vertigo started doing more original graphic novels with a definite ending. About 200-400 pages of comics is more than enough to tell a good story.

[Paul Nolan]

Buying floppies is a waste of money. If you dislike a TPB at least you can trade it back or resell it. A floppy has no value. I'm stuck with it if I hate it. If it's a mini I preordered ages ago, I'm stuck buying the remainder of a title I have no interest in or the retailer is stuck with it.

I'd love it if Vertigo started doing more original graphic novels with a definite ending. About 200-400 pages of comics is more than enough to tell a good story.

A "floppy" has no value....? tell that to my early issues of Invincible and Walking Dead!

yes they are the exceptions to the rule, but generally, if there's something i'm unsure about a new series, I try one issue before ordering the rest of the issue...

an initial $3.00 outlay to see if i like something, rather than $10.00.... look a $7.00 saving..... Morganagrom will be happy about that.... :tongue:

[MartinRedmond]

Dude, it took me 2 months to get rid of about 2 000 comics, I finally sold them for 125$ to a "collector" who'll probably never even read them. In fact, I need to call him again, cause I have another box to give. Even retailers don't want them for free.

Anyway, Vertigo can do whatever they want, but I agree with the topic starter that more direct to TPB comics like Silverfish or The Fountain would be nice. Chapters that don't always fit 24 pages would be cool too.

75 issue runs by the same writer, even in mainstream, are a rarity, and even then, I'm sure they get alot of audiance turn over. It's just not a realistic goal imo.

[dancj]

yes they are the exceptions to the rule, but generally, if there's something i'm unsure about a new series, I try one issue before ordering the rest of the issue...

an initial $3.00 outlay to see if i like something, rather than $10.00.... look a $7.00 saving..... Morganagrom will be happy about that.... :tongue:
The thing is with me, it's very rare that I can tell from the first issue of a comic whether I'm going to enjoy it or not. That $10 gets you a much better taster (though admittedly in the case of comics like Lucifer, 100 Bullets and for some people Fables, even that's not enough).

I'm not suggesting anyone stops reading pamphlets though.

[morganagrom]

Do pamphlets really serve a sampling purpose?

Prose book publishers usually don't feel the need to serialize the entire story in equal-length installments in order to give people a taste, and prose book consumers usually don't demand it.

The requirement to purchase sample installments (and then keep purchasing sample installments until they've effectively purchased the entire story) seems unique to comics.

Fortunately, the internet provides a way to sample a book before purchase. Publishers can use the internet to make samples of their product available to consumers online for free.

http://dccomics.com/sites/vertigo_num1s/

This is a valuable resource. With a tough economy, buying the same stories twice for purposes of "sampling" is a less and less attractive proposition for many people. DC/Vertigo has made a good start, and should expand it's free internet samplings to include non-series books.

[dancj]

You have got a point morganagrom. Unfortunately at the moment publishers (for the most part) don't offer entire issues as samples and anything less just wouldn't be a big enough sampler.

[morganagrom]

True. Maybe as pamphlet sales continue to decline, Vertigo-type publishers will experiment more with web-sampling and other digital delivery methods.

[DonC]

You're avoiding the perfectly valid question: Why do you care which format people read their books in? Do you own stock in amazon.com? Did your older brother beat you with a rolled up copy of GI Joe? Are you hoping a swimsuit model will come up to you and say, "Oh, morganagrom, that $3 I saved on Fables allowed my grandmother to have life-saving surgery. Allow me to thank you with a night of passion you'll never forget?"

haha - that's very funny.


So you're just going to avoid the very reasonable question of "Why do you care," is that it?

[ultramandingo]

............. " if you are one of the early adopters , the beautiful people who buy vertigo books monthly , may good luck and good heath be yours the rest of your days of your life - brian wood - northlanders # 9

[stealthwise]

Do pamphlets really serve a sampling purpose?

Prose book publishers usually don't feel the need to serialize the entire story in equal-length installments in order to give people a taste, and prose book consumers usually don't demand it.

The requirement to purchase sample installments (and then keep purchasing sample installments until they've effectively purchased the entire story) seems unique to comics.


Yes, it is. Or at least it has been for the past century or so, since prose publishers STOPPED publishing serialized prose fiction. It's taking comics a bit of time to get caught up, but for the most part it seems to be going in that direction. However, there are still a number of pretty good series that produce work suitable for serialization; ie, Y the Last Man, Sandman, DMZ, are several series produced since the 90s that seem to work just as well, if not better, in serialized format.

[ultramandingo]

............ " if you are one of the early adopters , the beautiful people who buy vertigo books monthly , may good luck and good heath be yours the rest of your days of your life - brian wood - northlanders # 9

[morganagrom]

Tradewaiters, on the other hand, will just have to settle for extra money in their pockets or extra comics on their shelves, whichever the case may be.

[Jankenstein]

One significant drawback of TPB's is poor bindings. If the glue doesn't do its job, the book falls apart.

Neither floppies nor hardcovers tend to have that problem.

[Jamie]

Tradewaiters, on the other hand, will just have to settle for extra money in their pockets or extra comics on their shelves, whichever the case may be.

The publishers should be offering the books entirely on line all at once for free. That would save me space, money, and time spent waiting.

[morganagrom]

@Jankenstein

Never seen that happen, but even if it does, the retailer should be able to exchange it for you.

@Jamie

Exactly! Offering television shows free online doesn't seem to have slowed down the TV on DVD industry. Some writers and musicians have already started doing this. Plus, if the comics publishers can monetize the serial with ad support, then it works out well for them too.

[MartinRedmond]

The publishers should be offering the books entirely on line all at once for free. That would save me space, money, and time spent waiting.

I think they should just email me a 2 sentence plot every month: "This month, this happens, blablabla. -cheers~" An ultimate melding of ecology and economy.

[dancj]

One significant drawback of TPB's is poor bindings. If the glue doesn't do its job, the book falls apart.

Neither floppies nor hardcovers tend to have that problem.

In my collection of probably over 2000 TPBs, I've had that problem very little: Exit (which had a problem with the print run that caused all issues to fall apart, Mr X and various Boxtree books, but as far as I'm aware they don't do GNs any more.

A bigger problem I have is that some of my comics come off the staples, because I haven't kept them all bagged up.

[Sean Walsh]

In my collection of probably over 2000 TPBs, I've had that problem very little: Exit (which had a problem with the print run that caused all issues to fall apart, Mr X and various Boxtree books, but as far as I'm aware they don't do GNs any more.

A bigger problem I have is that some of my comics come off the staples, because I haven't kept them all bagged up.

Yeah, staples can sometimes fall out (not stapled through the pages well) or not even be there. But even that's very rare.

I've never heard of this TPB problem. Ever. Surprising that it even exists.

[DonC]

Dark Horse had a problem with the glue their printers were using a few years back. Poor stapling and gluing are rare problems, though.

[morganagrom]

Loveless may not have lasted very long, but it was a very good deal for anyone tradewaiting the series. Tradewaiters saved $27 by purchasing the 3 paperbacks for $45 instead of the 24 pamphlets at $72.

Too bad it had to end so soon. At least there's still 2 or 3 more paperbacks of 100 Bullets to look forward to.

[KJ_81]

Loveless may not have lasted very long, but it was a very good deal for anyone tradewaiting the series. Tradewaiters saved $27 by purchasing the 3 paperbacks for $45 instead of the 24 pamphlets at $72.

Too bad it had to end so soon. At least there's still 2 or 3 more paperbacks of 100 Bullets to look forward to.

Honestly, who cares about such minute amounts?

Buy them singly: follow the story as it happens.

Buy the trade: save a few piddly dollars and cents, but have to wait 6 months between installments.

Pros and cons to both. Usually I just end up buying both.

[DonC]

Asking him questions is pointless, he avoids those like the French do soap. When someone embarks on a crusade like this they usually give the reason why they're doing it. Like to free the Holy Lands from Seljuq Turkish control. Morganagrom acts like he's just figured out the complex mathematical theorem of 15 being less than 18 and needs to tell everyone. Over and over and over. We get it. Now, do you have anything new to say?

[stealthwise]

Asking him questions is pointless, he avoids those like the French do soap. When someone embarks on a crusade like this they usually give the reason why they're doing it. Like to free the Holy Lands from Seljuq Turkish control. Mor