Oh great Meltzer won an Eisner Award...

[Scrubz]

So I've read all of Meltzer's DCU works and they are not anything special, moreover they are overrated. And now that his ego is being stroked yet again he'll probably write more stories for the DC. Here are my problems with Meltzer:

1) He character assassinates people he doesn't like, i.e. Kyle Rayner and Wally West making them look like complete idiots.
2) He doesn't understand the powers of the DCU heroes. See Identity Crisis and Justice League dog pile fights (Wally getting hit with a bomb behind Deathstroke? Kyle going in for a punch? Batman using a laser to take off Amazo's leg?)
3) His narrations are incredibly confusing
4) He begins plot threads that nobody cares about and other writers feel responsible for cleaning up. (Vixen's new leech powers, Hawkgirl and Red Arrow having an affair, Geo-Force sneaking into the Justice League?)

And his "Walls" issue was nothing that hasn't been seen before.

Who else thinks he blows?

[Super Buddies Forever]

Meltzer's comic stuff runs hot and cold with me. I loved Identity Crisis despite its more obvious flaws, but his Justice League run just winded up irritating me. It felt like nothing but never ending ruminations on how great the Justice League is, heroes calling each other by their real names in the thick of battle, and making the thousands of heroes in the DCU know each other on an extremely personal level. Basically, it was all of the faults of Identity Crisis without any of the intrigue.

[Vic Vega]

Melzter doesn't hate Kyle. You're thinking of Ennis ("Bueno, Bueno" :eek:).

Wally got his @$$ kicked by Deathstroke thru the 80's as a Titan so its nothing new.

If you were in a group and you were trying to really do somebody in you'd dogpile them.

He does slow burn character stuff that is reverent to the silver age. You either like it or you don't.

It's an aquired taste.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Melzter doesn't hate Kyle. You're thinking of Ennis ("Bueno, Bueno" :eek:)..

What's not to hate?

:D

Seriously, though. I'm a Hal man.

[Guru_Pitka]

Meltzer killed my interest in Justice League of America.

That interest still hasn't recovered because Dwayne McDuffie (a writer I really like) chose to continue things such as Red Arrow/Hawkgirl. A Hawkman ongoing is the only way I will overlook that.

I am looking forward to Justice League, though.

[Sean Walsh]

I'm one of those rare few who likes Meltzer's JLA, and basically any comic of his that I've read.

Dunno why, don't care. I likes it and that's all I care about. :smile:

[Jack Zodiac]

Wow, what the !@#$? Best single issue? Did somebody steal the rest of the judges' books this year?

[Leocomix]

Meltzer restored the JLA by reintroducing the 70s satellite era and just for that he deserves eternal recognition. Johns did a great follow-up with Crisis of Conscience.
The only thing I didn"t like in the new series was Ed Benes. I didn't think much of JLA #11 and I don't claim to understand why it is deserved. I guess I'll read it again.

[titanfan]

Once I saw the nominees I thought Meltzer had a chance to win--given the choices, I thought "Walls" was pretty good.

That said, I thought this year Eisner nominations were *putrid*. Granted, I only read about 40-50% of the stuff nominated, but if those were the best stuff put out this year, this was a shitty year in comics.

I think the problem with the Eisner voting in this circumstance is that they only read the standalone issue and may not be regular JLA readers. Thus, it's hard to get context. If Red Arrow is written out of character, how do they know?

[AlistairCrane]

Can't say I particularly liked his JLA (the story/characters he chose), but I loved Identity Crisis, and it's one of my favourite DCU stories ever now.

[the-wolf]

IC was just OK.

JLA sucked hard.

And I read one of his novels (the Book of Fate) and it nearly killed me. So boring. Not to mention that the story barely touched on what the book jacket said it would be about.

Overall? I'll never read anything of his again.

[Jack Zodiac]

Wow, yeah, I just took a look at the Eisner nominees this year. What a crappy selection. Still, I only read the first issue of Johnny Hiro, and it was so much better than "Wall." And Amelia Rules!, which I'm behind on, was a much more entertaining series than Meltzer's Justice League of America. Do you think it won just because of Gene Ha's art (which was even substandard for him)?

[Michael P]

Wow, yeah, I just took a look at the Eisner nominees this year. What a crappy selection. Still, I only read the first issue of Johnny Hiro, and it was so much better than "Wall." And Amelia Rules!, which I'm behind on, was a much more entertaining series than Meltzer's Justice League of America. Do you think it won just because of Gene Ha's art (which was even substandard for him)?

Quite possibly. That or just general DC-blowing on the part of the judges.

I have read that Amelia Rules! issue, and it blows anything Meltzer has ever done in comics out of the water.

[Babylon23]

Of course, the alternative is that the judges just have a different opinion than the naysayers here and actually thought Meltzer's story deserved the award.

Wait, that must be crazy talk! :rolleyes:

I may not be the biggest supporter of Meltzer's work (although I enjoyed the Tornado's Path story and his excellent 6 issues of GA) but it's obvious that there are plenty of supporters for his work out there. His JLA relaunch was the #1 selling ongoing series for DC during the 12 issues he wrote it, and continues in that position now based at least partially on the foundation he established. I'm sure not everybody is reading it "just because".

At the end of the day, judges in award ceremonies are just people with opinions just like the rest of us.

[DarKye]

To Have and To Hold deserved it much more; Possibly the best Spider-Man story that year.

I don't remember this particular JLA issue being so memorable back when I read it. But oh well.
Congratulations to Meltzer.

[Tanjint]

that issue was good, but the sensational annual was better.

Meltzer is good, but not Eisner level imo.

Identity crisis kicked ass, and I think Batman's laser and Deathstroke knowing how to fight wally makes sense but the other complaints about the fight(Kyle throwing a punch) are legitimate complaints.

while identity crisis was sweet, his JLA run was whack outside of the way he wrote the trinity.

I'd love to see a Trinity story by him, but the way he wrote the REST of the league did nothing for me.

-T

[ClareQuilty]

And here i thought i was alone in my dislike of Meltzers JLA. Hey, while we're beating on him, Id like to throw Benes and McDuffie on the fire as well.

Seriously DC. I want to read JLA. PLEASE. Please get rid of these sub par creative teams.

Meltzer killed my interest in Justice League of America.

That interest still hasn't recovered because Dwayne McDuffie (a writer I really like) chose to continue things such as Red Arrow/Hawkgirl. A Hawkman ongoing is the only way I will overlook that.

I am looking forward to Justice League, though.

[Scrubz]

Identity crisis kicked ass, and I think Batman's laser and Deathstroke knowing how to fight wally makes sense but the other complaints about the fight(Kyle throwing a punch) are legitimate complaints.

while identity crisis was sweet, his JLA run was whack outside of the way he wrote the trinity.
-T

I don't know about kicking ass, hardly any ass gets kicked in a Meltzer comic. I will say Meltzer has fairly decent ideas for his stories just really poor execution. The concept behind Identity Crisis was genuinely intriguing, but he misses the mark way to often. His biggest fault really is all the DCU heroes knowing one another on a personal level. I was just getting in the DCU when I read IC and was like, "wait why does Lois Lane know Bruce Wayne is Batman?" Granted that might have been an established plot point somewhere else, but it just rubbed me wrong.

I believe Meltzer writes superheroes for people who know little about the characters, which is fine, but just needs better editing or even better say someone like Geoff Johns co-writing to keep him in line.

[spidervenom]

I thought Ic was pretty good. But his jla run was just slow and boring. Also, I just found out he roomed with judd winnick in college. Coincidence?

[AlistairCrane]

I thought Ic was pretty good. But his jla run was just slow and boring. Also, I just found out he roomed with judd winnick in college. Coincidence?

Is it a coincidence that they both work for DC now? Probably not. P.S. Judd Winick's probably a better writer than Meltzer.

[Mon-el]

Let's see I've liked Identity Crisis, Green Arrow, and his JL of A run for the most part.

I didn't really like the issue that he won the eisner for, though.

[BigBoss]

His JLA just never felt like it went anywhere. It was slowpaced and very boring.

[Tanjint]

yeah when he should have been focusing on what he did well (trinity interaction) he tried, as many writers do for various legitimate reasons, to make us care about slow-moving plots about b and c list characters like Vixen and Geo-force.

-T

[Will.S]

The Gene Ha drawn issue was very good compared to Meltzer's other Justice League issues but Brad is the furthest writer from my mind when I think of a writer that should receive an Eisner award.

Still, my congrats to the dude. There's no reason to be a sour grape about things like this since not everyone is going to agree with the Eisner's every time.

[Shellhead]

Jeph Loeb won last year, though probably mostly due to the Darwyn Cooke artwork on Batman/The Spirit #1. Maybe Gene Ha made the difference this year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisner_award#Best_Single_Issue.2FSingle_Story

[Shellhead]

In fact, I don't see Meltzar anywhere on this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisner_award#Best_Writer

Or this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eisner_award#The_Will_Eisner_Award_Hall_of_Fame

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

P.S. Judd Winick's probably a better writer than Meltzer.

Isn't that kind of like saying that The Monarch is a cooler & deadlier villain than Boris Badenov?

[brundlefly]

Is it a coincidence that they both work for DC now? Probably not. P.S. Judd Winick's probably a better writer than Meltzer.

Nah; Meltzer certainly has his faults, imo, but Judd Winick is hands down the worst writer on DC's payroll. No contest.

[Sizzle]

Is it a coincidence that they both work for DC now? Probably not. P.S. Judd Winick's probably a better writer than Meltzer.

Is your name Judd?

Judd is HORRIBLE! Meltzer is not memorable, but he's at least enjoyable. His JL is not my favorite, but I thought he handled the trinity well in it as mentioned before.

[carabas]

Jeph Loeb won last year...And people complain about Meltzer getting one?
I bet Chuck Austen gets one next year.

[Pól Rua]

Reading Meltzer's comics like taking a sanding disc to my junk.
His dialogue is forced and reads like someone trying desperately to ape hard-boiled, clipped delivery but which comes across as someone who saw Sin City once and thinks he's Dashiel Hammett.
His stories are an unstructured, over-padded morass of irrelevent exchanges which add nothing to the story and seem to be desperately treading water until the final page reveal.
His work is essentially two-note. He swings back and forth between half-baked hero worship and strident menace.
Unfortunately, neither of these work as his hero worship comes across as an externalization of his authorial voice projected through a series of cardboard cut-outs using cutting edge Clutch Cargo synchro-vox technology, and his menace is overcomplex to the point of being almost opaque, while simultaneously staying at the same pitch throughout until it turns into a sort of irritating background whine.

As a writer of dialogue, he comes across as a bad ventriloquist.
As a writer of suspense, he comes across as a 3 a.m. car alarm that goes off every time a moth lands on the hood.

[Pól Rua]

Nah; Meltzer certainly has his faults, imo, but Judd Winick is hands down the worst writer on DC's payroll. No contest.

Is your name Judd?

Judd is HORRIBLE! Meltzer is not memorable, but he's at least enjoyable. His JL is not my favorite, but I thought he handled the trinity well in it as mentioned before.

Judd Winick wrote 'The Adventures of Barry Ween, Boy Genius', which is awesome.
Brad Meltzer hasn't written anything of note that I've seen in the comics field.

[Scrubz]

Reading Meltzer's comics like taking a sanding disc to my junk.
His dialogue is forced and reads like someone trying desperately to ape hard-boiled, clipped delivery but which comes across as someone who saw Sin City once and thinks he's Dashiel Hammett.
His stories are an unstructured, over-padded morass of irrelevent exchanges which add nothing to the story and seem to be desperately treading water until the final page reveal.
His work is essentially two-note. He swings back and forth between half-baked hero worship and strident menace.
Unfortunately, neither of these work as his hero worship comes across as an externalization of his authorial voice projected through a series of cardboard cut-outs using cutting edge Clutch Cargo synchro-vox technology, and his menace is overcomplex to the point of being almost opaque, while simultaneously staying at the same pitch throughout until it turns into a sort of irritating background whine.

As a writer of dialogue, he comes across as a bad ventriloquist.
As a writer of suspense, he comes across as a 3 a.m. car alarm that goes off every time a moth lands on the hood.

This is an absolutely perfect critique of Meltzer's comic writing. Well constructed and perfectly executed, unlike poor Brad's writing.

[LtMarvel]

So I've read all of Meltzer's DCU works and they are not anything special, moreover they are overrated. And now that his ego is being stroked yet again he'll probably write more stories for the DC. Here are my problems with Meltzer:

1) He character assassinates people he doesn't like, i.e. Kyle Rayner and Wally West making them look like complete idiots.
2) He doesn't understand the powers of the DCU heroes. See Identity Crisis and Justice League dog pile fights (Wally getting hit with a bomb behind Deathstroke? Kyle going in for a punch? Batman using a laser to take off Amazo's leg?)
3) His narrations are incredibly confusing
4) He begins plot threads that nobody cares about and other writers feel responsible for cleaning up. (Vixen's new leech powers, Hawkgirl and Red Arrow having an affair, Geo-Force sneaking into the Justice League?)

And his "Walls" issue was nothing that hasn't been seen before.

Who else thinks he blows?
Let me suggest that such a win indicates that perhaps you should reread and reevaluate that issue.

Oh and please point me in the direction of where this story was told before in comics...

[Carter Hall]

Reading Meltzer's comics like taking a sanding disc to my junk.
His dialogue is forced and reads like someone trying desperately to ape hard-boiled, clipped delivery but which comes across as someone who saw Sin City once and thinks he's Dashiel Hammett.
His stories are an unstructured, over-padded morass of irrelevent exchanges which add nothing to the story and seem to be desperately treading water until the final page reveal.
His work is essentially two-note. He swings back and forth between half-baked hero worship and strident menace.
Unfortunately, neither of these work as his hero worship comes across as an externalization of his authorial voice projected through a series of cardboard cut-outs using cutting edge Clutch Cargo synchro-vox technology, and his menace is overcomplex to the point of being almost opaque, while simultaneously staying at the same pitch throughout until it turns into a sort of irritating background whine.

As a writer of dialogue, he comes across as a bad ventriloquist.
As a writer of suspense, he comes across as a 3 a.m. car alarm that goes off every time a moth lands on the hood.

I agree. Well-stated, by the way.

I actually met Brad Meltzer at a book-signing in Boston a few years back. Really nice guy.

Unfortunately, I don't particularly care for his comic book writing, either (I haven't read any of his novels). I actually really liked Identity Crisis as a murder-mystery- I don't know about a DC Universe-changing event as it was advertised- I really enjoyed it for what it was.

That being said, that mystery/suspense style really doesn't translate to ongoing issues, I think. I didn't care for his JLA at all and now he seems like a one-trick pony.

But he did write JL of A #0 which I really liked, too, for what it's worth.

[Sean Walsh]

Brad Meltzer hasn't written anything of note that I've seen in the comics field.

Apparently he wrote "Walls," which won an Eisner. :wink: :tongue:

[Hawkman]

I haven't read any of the other issues that were up for the award, so I really can't comment on whether or not Meltzer and Ha deserved it. I will say, however, that of Meltzer's thirteen issues on Justice League, #11 was the one I had no real problems with, and even happened to enjoy.

Interesting to note, though, that this issue centered around two characters at the expense of the rest of the team, with the theme of their survival being the focal point as opposed to any physical confrontation or threat. That it entertained me far more than any of his other issues almost proves the point by proxy that he can't write an action oriented team book like Justice League, or at least not in a way that's appealing to this reader.

[mgs]

maybe not deserving of an Eisner, nevertheless, I enjoy his stories.

[Lester C.]

The Eisner award isn't a popularity contest. If Meltzer won, they he deserved it for the catagory he won it for.

[Scrubz]

Oh and please point me in the direction of where this story was told before in comics...

Two people are faced with the possibility of dying while being trapped underneath a building and they evaluate their existence and express their hope for survival...sounds like the plot of World Trade Center starring Nicholas Cage released in 2006. While not being a comic story all Meltzer did was change the real life heroes for superheroes.

[Johnny_Luck]

The most screwed up thing about this is other than the mess that was editorially forced of him in the Lightning saga, walls is easily, easily the worst art wise and writing wise of Melzter's solid run on JLA. Monitor Duty would have been much worthy of winning this award.

His JLA just never felt like it went anywhere. It was slowpaced and very boring.

He built characters and had enough action for a story. I sorry that it wasn't 99.9 percent explosions and super power and fist fights for the a.d.d people who cannot handle slow but well thought out and built relationships and forming the team as a whole. I take it over what Mcduffie has given us so far with little character devlopment and an over abundance of action.

[LtMarvel]

I don't recall Nic Cage getting so turned around that he didn't realize which way was up.....wanna try again?

[Darrell D.]

I don't recall Nic Cage getting so turned around that he didn't realize which way was up.....wanna try again?

Cage's character also didn't wear a super-hero costume, what's your point?
The theme of the story is similar, but I doubt Meltzer took it from that movie. There have been plenty of stories, real-life and fictional, about being trapped in a mine, underground, in the middle of the ocean, etc.

[shrike]

The Eisner award isn't a popularity contest. If Meltzer won, they he deserved it for the catagory he won it for.

Lester, please.

You don't think the board voting didn't see this as a way of the Eisners getting a foot into the mainstream...?

Meltzer's comics read like bloated trash. Disappointed.

[Scrubz]

The most screwed up thing about this is other than the mess that was editorially forced of him in the Lightning saga, walls is easily, easily the worst art wise and writing wise of Melzter's solid run on JLA. Monitor Duty would have been much worthy of winning this award.
.

I remember reading in an interview that "The Lightning Saga" was conceived by Meltzer and Johns years before it saw print when the two of them were stuck in a hotel together during a hurricane warning. Could be wrong.

And Gene Ha is a good artist.

[Scrubz]

He built characters and had enough action for a story. I sorry that it wasn't 99.9 percent explosions and super power and fist fights for the a.d.d people who cannot handle slow but well thought out and built relationships and forming the team as a whole. I take it over what Mcduffie has given us so far with little character devlopment and an over abundance of action.

Oh I love character development, but where in Meltzer's JLA is there anything more than fanboy worship of the characters he wanted in his Justice League? I read and reread "The Tornadoes Path" and still cannot make much sense of Grundy's motivation. Meltzer never, never writes his antagonists with clear vision. They always have these odd goals that in theory make them deeper characters instead of just being cardboard cutout bad guys. But then in the climax of the tornadoes path and identity crisis you're like wtf? That was the payoff to all this cloak and dagger?

He sucks.

[varsity_club]

Meltzer won one ? A lot of people must have loved his work in his stint in Justice League recently.

[shrike]

I remember reading in an interview that "The Lightning Saga" was conceived by Meltzer and Johns years before it saw print when the two of them were stuck in a hotel together during a hurricane warning. Could be wrong.



Sounds like the kind of movie you get in the far back of a rental store.

[Tanjint]

someone mentioned JLA #0. that's easily the best single issue i've read by Meltzer.

I kinda wish Busiek had written those first 12 issues of the current JLA run and Meltzer got Trinity.

or maybe just give Meltzer a trinity mini when Busiek's maxi-series is done.

cause he really does write them well, but him on the whole JL? eh....

relatedly,i can see busiek/morrison doing Justice League titles when McDuffie/Robinson are done.

when i met Geoff Johns at my local comic shop way early this year, Johns mentioned that Morrison and himself would be at DC for a LONG time in the foreseeable future. I mentioned that Morrison has done just about everything he can do in the DCU and asked Johns what the hell else he thought Morrison could do and Johns said with a wry smile..."I don't know....Justice League...again?"


-T

[josh straightedge]

I hated his Justice League but Identity Crisis was great and so was his Green Arrow run.

But then again, a lot of people do like his JLA. Go figure.

[HaroldAllnut]

Allow me to preface this by saying that I loved Identity Crisis; there were some great moments in there, and Ralph and Sue's relationship was beautiful.

That being said, his Justice League stuff absolutely blew. I never understood how Wally could somehow be stopped by an explosion; wouldn't he just see it in slo-mo and run around it? It'd make more sense to use a gas or a well-placed dart. Something small and hard to see.

I did not at all care for his Red Tornado characterization, and the fact that the big three somehow would refer to each other by their first names in the midst of combat just made no sense to me. Calling Superman "CLARK!" or Batman "BRUCE!" in the middle of a fight with people like an intelligent Solomon Grundy or someone else was just plain stupid. I mean, in private, it's obviously a different story, but come on... They're called "secret identities" for a reason.

[princesa]

Allow me to preface this by saying that I loved Identity Crisis; there were some great moments in there, and Ralph and Sue's relationship was beautiful.

That being said, his Justice League stuff absolutely blew. I never understood how Wally could somehow be stopped by an explosion; wouldn't he just see it in slo-mo and run around it? It'd make more sense to use a gas or a well-placed dart. Something small and hard to see.

I did not at all care for his Red Tornado characterization, and the fact that the big three somehow would refer to each other by their first names in the midst of combat just made no sense to me. Calling Superman "CLARK!" or Batman "BRUCE!" in the middle of a fight with people like an intelligent Solomon Grundy or someone else was just plain stupid. I mean, in private, it's obviously a different story, but come on... They're called "secret identities" for a reason.


You saved me a post those were exactly my points.

[Johnny_Luck]

And Gene Ha is a good artist.

The only thing I seen him do was Walls and it made it damn near impossible to read with how scratchy and oddly/off his art was and how he broke it up way too much.

I honestly Think that had Ed been the one drawing that issue it would have at least been a bit more tolerable and I think he would have been able to prove all the people who don't think he could handle it wrong, cause I know he could have.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I read and reread "The Tornadoes Path" and still cannot make much sense of Grundy's motivation.

As opposed to in Archers Quest, where Grundy jumping out of nowhere to attack GA made perfect sense...


The only thing I seen him do was Walls and it made it damn near impossible to read with how scratchy and oddly/off his art was and how he broke it up way too much.

I honestly Think that had Ed been the one drawing that issue it would have at least been a bit more tolerable and I think he would have been able to prove all the people who don't think he could handle it wrong, cause I know he could have.

It's messing with my head big-time to see anyone say that Ed Benes is a better artist than Gene Ha....
I mean sure, taste is taste, and it's subjective, but really, even objectively, Gene Ha is a much better artist than Ed Benes.
Benes has all the excitement of Roger Cruz, with all the originality of Chap Yaep.

[Tanjint]

i really like Benes. but Ha is also good. I don't see one as better than the other.


people tend to dismiss people of the "Jim Lee" school as 'all style no substance' just cause their characters are conventionally attractive, but i've always been able to really enjoy and follow the storytelling abilities of such pencillers.




-T

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I heard this news last week. It must have been a PITY EISNER. What next....Judd Winick winning an Eisner for TITANS ? Way to trample on Will Eisner's legacy.

[Johnny_Luck]

people tend to dismiss people of the "Jim Lee" school as 'all style no substance' just cause their characters are conventionally attractive, but i've always been able to really enjoy and follow the storytelling abilities of such pencillers.
-T

Thats the major problem, Lee, Benes and those types are really, really amazing artits who get crapped on or overlooked because they are so good at making the art stunning and attractive. Jime Lee actually does do faces a hell of a lot better than a majority of people give him credit him for, in fact its one thing I think he can do very well, which is why the whole he can only do one face utter BS pisses me off.

Though Like I said going by Benes on JLA and Birds vs Gene Ha on JLA I take Benes any day of the week. Gene had one of the most uninteresting,. scratchy and hard as hell to look at issues of a comic drawn last year when he did that issue. The art in Walls just destroyed any possible enjoyment I could have found in an issue with 2 of the 3 best members currently on the JLA.

[Johnny_Luck]

I heard this news last week. It must have been a PITY EISNER. What next....Judd Winick winning an Eisner for TITANS ? Way to trample on Will Eisner's legacy.

Or maybe this just shows ignorant fanboys who trash good character build will be ignored and people who are actually talented and write well regardless of what those fanboys say will be rewarded for their hard work.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Or maybe this just shows ignorant fanboys who trash good character build will be ignored and people who are actually talented and write well regardless of what those fanboys say will be rewarded for their hard work.

Considering he wrote a great bunch of fan fiction I think the fanboys took to it. Those who love that kinda stuff. Meanwhile good work gets ignored. But again....this trashes the Eisner Awards and the man's name who they are named after.

If this was a Wizard Award we all could laugh.

[Johnny_Luck]

Considering he wrote a great bunch of fan fiction I think the fanboys took to it. Those who love that kinda stuff. Meanwhile good work gets ignored. But again....this trashes the Eisner Awards and the man's name who they are named after.

If this was a Wizard Award we all could laugh.

He made both Vixen and Hawkgirl likable again for the first time in a very fucking long time regardless of how you much you believe that because you like hawkman she should be treated as nothing more than his piece of property. At least she seems a bit more like herself when not forced to be held down by the male figure you like so much.

His Roy was awesome as well, Winick had a kick ass Roy, but Meltzer had him fun as well.

[Floyd The Barber]

Hawkgirl likable again for the first time in a very fucking long time

Uhhh... You do know that Hawkgirl (Kendra) is a pretty young character right? She's only been around since the late 90's.
Being someone that's read pretty much every major appearance of her I have to say that Meltzer's JLA is the 1st time I ever found her off-putting (to put it mildly). I was just fine with Walt Simonson's take on her (which barely had Hawkman in it BTW). I absolutely loved Geoff Johns take.
Hmmm...Did you actually read any of those or have you only read Meltzer's and just blindly comparing it to what came before without ever having read what came before just to defend Meltzer I wonder? Because if you had you'd know that Johns and Simonson never once treated Kendra as a piece of Carter's "property".

I wouldn't go as far as to say it tarnishes the Eisner Awards but considering how many good (many great) comics I've read in the last year... seeing a Meltzer JLA get "best single issue" was definitely a mind-boggling WTF moment for me. For me any given Geoff Johns GL or JSA issue is better. Hell I'd have rather seen a (shriek!) Bendis Avengers book get it. But I guess I can live with some people finding over-narrated nonsensical action involving one-note characters noteworthy.

[Shellhead]

Or maybe this just shows ignorant fanboys who trash good character build will be ignored and people who are actually talented and write well regardless of what those fanboys say will be rewarded for their hard work.

Heh. Next you will be telling us that George W. Bush must be a great president because he got re-elected.

[Superboy-Prime]

His JLA run sucked balls. Hell chuck Austen could've given out the same output. Benes art didn't help either.

[Superboy-Prime]

Uhhh... You do know that Hawkgirl (Kendra) is a pretty young character right? She's only been around since the late 90's.
Being someone that's read pretty much every major appearance of her I have to save that Meltzer's JLA is the 1st time I ever found her off-putting (to put it mildly). I was just fine with Walt Simonson's take on her (which barely had Hawkman in it BTW). I absolutely loved Geoff Johns take.
Hmmm...Did you actually read any of those or have you only read Meltzer's and just blindly comparing it to what came before without ever having read what came before just to defend Meltzer I wonder? Because if you had you'd know that Johns and Simonson never once treated Kendra as a piece of Carter's "property".

I wouldn't go as far as to say it tarnishes the Eisner Awards but considering how many good (many great) comics I've read in the last year... seeing a Meltzer JLA get "best single issue" was definitely a mind-boggling WTF moment for me. For me any given Geoff Johns GL or JSA issue is better. Hell I'd have rather seen a (shriek!) Bendis Avengers book get it. But I guess I can live with some people finding over-narrated nonsensical action involving one-note characters noteworthy.


agreed. He really doesn't deserve an Eisner.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Maybe fans should demand a recount ! That way we can save ourselves the whole "Brad Meltzer wins an Esiner for JLA" that makes us sick.

And Johnny I've pretty much already told you how piss poor that made Kendra. It was basically Brad Meltzer writing himself into Roy Harper and bedding a character to make it look cool. Instead he made the character into a moron . And its gonna take great writers awhile to handle the damage he caused Hawkgirl.

[Jack Zodiac]

Or maybe this just shows ignorant fanboys who trash good character build will be ignored and people who are actually talented and write well regardless of what those fanboys say will be rewarded for their hard work.

Nope. It's definitely a pity Eisner.

[Hawkman]

Uhhh... You do know that Hawkgirl (Kendra) is a pretty young character right? She's only been around since the late 90's.
Being someone that's read pretty much every major appearance of her I have to save that Meltzer's JLA is the 1st time I ever found her off-putting (to put it mildly). I was just fine with Walt Simonson's take on her (which barely had Hawkman in it BTW). I absolutely loved Geoff Johns take.
Hmmm...Did you actually read any of those or have you only read Meltzer's and just blindly comparing it to what came before without ever having read what came before just to defend Meltzer I wonder? Because if you had you'd know that Johns and Simonson never once treated Kendra as a piece of Carter's "property".
Johnny makes this same ludicrous argument in regards to Hawkgirl every time the subject of Meltzer's JLA comes up it seems, and myself, SUPERECWFAN1, and others have all reached the conclusion that he never read Hawkman or JSA when she was appearing in those titles. He says he read Hawkgirl, but I honestly find that to be suspect as well. For some reason, though, he, like Meltzer, just has an inexplicable affection for the Kendra/Roy pairing, and in his never-ending quest to defensively justify it those who don't share his sentiments, Johnny compulsively bashes any prior characterization or relationships Kendra happened to have before Meltzer got his ham-fisted hands on her.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Johnny makes this same ludicrous argument in regards to Hawkgirl every time the subject of Meltzer's JLA comes up it seems, and myself, SUPERECWFAN1, and others have all reached the conclusion that he never read Hawkman or JSA when she was appearing in those titles. He says he read Hawkgirl, but I honestly find that to be suspect as well. For some reason, though, he, like Meltzer, just has an inexplicable affection for the Kendra/Roy pairing, and in his never-ending quest to defensively justify it those who don't share his sentiments, Johnny compulsively bashes any prior characterization or relationships Kendra happened to have before Meltzer got his ham-fisted hands on her.

Easy way t fix this... the woman who bedded Kendra was a Thangarian spy who assumed her identity on Earth. Using science her face and all was modeled after Kendra...and she only came back to Earth to be a part of the Justice League and get inside info on things.

This does 2 things....

1. It creates a new cool subplot to explore and having the JLA face Thanagar !

2. It fixes the Kendra character and has her re-unite with Carter and we can forget this.

[Scrubz]

It was basically Brad Meltzer writing himself into Roy Harper and bedding a character to make it look cool.

This is truth spoken. Meltzer can't write superhero characterization to save his life. I hope DC never gives him a monthly title again.

[Tanjint]

I don't get how people can love Jim Lee and Michael Turner and hate Ed Benes. His people do all have the same builds and he does stylistically take a lot from those aforementioned artists and other artists of that 'school' but if it looks good it looks good....I mean yeah it's not the most original style, but it looks damn good on superheroes I thought.


-T

[Pól Rua]

I don't get how people can love Jim Lee and Michael Turner and hate Ed Benes. His people do all have the same builds and he does stylistically take a lot from those aforementioned artists and other artists of that 'school' but if it looks good it looks good....I mean yeah it's not the most original style, but it looks damn good on superheroes I thought.


-T

That's okay. I can't stand Jim Lee or Michael Turner either.

[dancj]

Thats the major problem, Lee, Benes and those types are really, really amazing artits who get crapped on or overlooked because they are so good at making the art stunning and attractive.
Yeah that's right - I dislike their art because it's stunning and attractive :rolleyes:

Actually I dislike their art for different reasons. Benes actually isn't too bad these days when he's drawing men, but he does such bad cheescake on his women that they look ridiculous. It's not the whole concept of cheesecake I hate - Adam Hughs and Frank Cho show it can be done well - Ed Benes just does it really badly.

Jim Lee seems fairly competent, but his style does nothing for me and his work is very stiff.

[Tanjint]

can you give me some examples of artists whose works feel very fluid?

i guess I see what you're saying with Lee but every style has its pros and cons I guess.

JRJR's storytelling is great but you gotta deal with homogenous faces sometimes, Frank Miller's bad ass scenes are bad ass scenes, but you gotta deal with some scratchiness, same with Sienkewicz, JRJR, Chaykin and others.

Bianchi, Ed McGuiness, John Cassady and Frank Quitely are amazing, detailed and even iconic....but all their characters look kinda short and stubby.....

to me it's all about the story-telling ability...and I can follow the stories told by all the aforementioned artists even Bianchi, Benes, and especially Lee.


-T

[jesse_custer]

I don't support Meltzer getting an Eisner Award, but some of the negative criticism against him is just as exaggerated.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

i really like Benes. but Ha is also good. I don't see one as better than the other.

people tend to dismiss people of the "Jim Lee" school as 'all style no substance' just cause their characters are conventionally attractive, but i've always been able to really enjoy and follow the storytelling abilities of such pencillers.
-T

I thought we dismissed them because most of them are Lee clones* who haven't progressed any further than being a clone, and quite frankly, it's been over ten years since Lee hit big - I'm sick of seeing people rip from him.

Also, what do you mean by conventionally attractive?
Because I've never found an Ed Benes drawing attractive, let alone conventionally - his anatomy is all over the place - he hears people like long legged ladies, and so he draws ladies with long, out of proportion legs.

So I think he cops it more because unlike Ha, who has his own distinct figure style and layout style (he has several of those actually, depending on the story) Benes just draws like an amalgamation of other artists (but doesn't hide it) and uses rather boring
layouts.

*And Lee doesn't exactly hide his influences, but none of them show signs of having looked back at what inspired him.

[DavidAllred]

I very much enjoyed Meltzer's work, except for having Ollie walk out on a child in GA. I think he's a lot fun to read and want more from him.

[Superboy-Prime]

I don't get how people can love Jim Lee and Michael Turner and hate Ed Benes. His people do all have the same builds and he does stylistically take a lot from those aforementioned artists and other artists of that 'school' but if it looks good it looks good....I mean yeah it's not the most original style, but it looks damn good on superheroes I thought.


-T

because Jim Lee is 1000 times better the Turner(god bless his soul) and Ed Benes.

Turner and Ed benes are derivatives from Jim lee,poor ones too.

Jim Lee's pencils are freaking badass, clean and sharp, his panels are filled with energy and f'in Detailed like crazy. He doesn't have problems with anatomy. you can't find that with Turner and Benes. both are poor substitues for Jim Lee. thats why when Jim is put on a book people go ape shits over it. His pencils are one of the best in the business.


Ed Mcguiness's art is just waaay to cartoonish for my tastes. I like sophistication in the art I view.

I had problems with Quitely, But I've grown to appreciate his art alot. All star Supes and his New Xmen stuff were awesome.

[Tanjint]

fair enough, i just find Benes to be more entertaining than a lot of pencillers in the biz. i'd love to see him on some marvel

-T

[Superboy-Prime]

ehhhh, whatever floats your boat. I can't say your opinion is fair,I can find better pencillers then Benes. I wouldn't want him to be on any book until he improves his pencils.

But hey, whatever floats your boat.

[Tanjint]

i agree there's pencillers better, it just surprises me that he repulses people

-T

[dancj]

can you give me some examples of artists whose works feel very fluid?
Off the top of my head:
Adam Hughes
Bryan Hitch
Tim Sale
Norm Breyfogle
Mike Wieringo
Josh Middleton
Doug Tenapel
Alberto Uderzo

Even Todd McFarlane (who by all accounts isn't nearly as nice a bloke as Jim Lee) who has a similar style to Jim Lee's, but which so much more life to it.

[Tanjint]

i agree with most of those but Hitch? Hitch is good but I don't find his work to be very fluid or full of life. It looks like scratchy renderings of celebrities...which a lot of pencillers can do and is okay but i don't find it to be 'fluid'.

Hm, I think i'm going to start a series of threads in which us comic geeks try to figure out a relatively universal language in which we can better articulate our thoughts on artists because I've noticed it's a lot harder to do than discussing the merits of stories.

-T

[Seraku]

honestly I'd have given the award to the Spectacular Spider-Man annual

[Tanjint]

sensational. but yes, i agree

-T

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Off the top of my head:
Adam Hughes
Bryan Hitch
Tim Sale
Norm Breyfogle
Mike Wieringo
Josh Middleton
Doug Tenapel
Alberto Uderzo

Even Todd McFarlane (who by all accounts isn't nearly as nice a bloke as Jim Lee) who has a similar style to Jim Lee's, but which so much more life to it.

I don't know that I'd call all of those fluid, but the big difference between the names on this list and Benes, is that these guys all have a distinct style of their own.

[dancj]

i agree with most of those but Hitch? Hitch is good but I don't find his work to be very fluid or full of life. It looks like scratchy renderings of celebrities...which a lot of pencillers can do and is okay but i don't find it to be 'fluid'.
He's not the loosest penciller in the world, but I do find his people seem natural - like they are actually moving - unlike Jim Lee's who seem very static.

I don't know that I'd call all of those fluid, but the big difference between the names on this list and Benes, is that these guys all have a distinct style of their own.

Actually I don't find Benes's work stiff. My problem with him are more the anatomy and badly done cheesecake.

[Tanjint]

without using adam hughes, joseph linsner, or even terry dodson as an example...what is well done cheese-cake?

I can see not liking cheesecake, but if the problem is not with cheesecake as a concept, then what is wrong with benes'? I think his cheesecake is great.

also, what is wrong with his anatomy? I can see how many see it as the same anatomy that Jim Lee and Michael Turner and other similar artists use but I mean...is his inaccurate, overly exaggerated?

and i'm not trying to be a troll, I'm trying to understand the distaste for his work.

-T

[Michael P]

without using adam hughes, joseph linsner, or even terry dodson as an example...what is well done cheese-cake?

Frank Cho. Dave Stevens. Hell, Bruce Timm when he's in the right mood.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I can see not liking cheesecake, but if the problem is not with cheesecake as a concept, then what is wrong with benes'? I think his cheesecake is great.


He fails at cheesecake because he just draws women with exaggerated features, and just goes for cheap ass shots and the like.
There's no class or cheekiness, the anatomy is off and he's totally unoriginal.

His cheesecake is cheap frozen one from the supermarket.
Why accept that when there are master chefs who specialise in it?

[dancj]

Frank Cho. Dave Stevens. Hell, Bruce Timm when he's in the right mood.
All good choices. And for the record I'd never have considered using Joseph Linsner as an example of good cheesecake.

And FunkyGreenJerusalem explained why it's bad much better than I could.

[40footwolf]

I think people need to stop being such tits about Brad Meltzer and either stop reading what he writes altogether(because, hey! If you don't like a writer, DON'T BUY HIS STUFF JUST SO YOU CAN AFFIRM YOU DON'T LIKE IT) or go back to school and try to remember that strict continuity adherence is not the same as good writing. At all.

[Shellhead]

I think people need to stop being such tits about Brad Meltzer and either stop reading what he writes altogether(because, hey! If you don't like a writer, DON'T BUY HIS STUFF JUST SO YOU CAN AFFIRM YOU DON'T LIKE IT) or go back to school and try to remember that strict continuity adherence is not the same as good writing. At all.

This isn't about Meltzar failing to adhere to strict continuity, this is about Meltzar being a bad comic book writer. And this thread is for people to complain about Meltzar winning an award that he didn't deserve. Even if we refuse to continue buying the bad comics that Meltzar writes, we're still entitled to complain that more deserving writers didn't get the award. And since this is a discussion forum and not cheerleading camp, we're allowed to express both positive and negative opinions. Otherwise, the discussions here would be short and boring if all we could do is say nice things and then quote each other.

[carabas]

I think people need to stop being such tits about Brad Meltzer and either stop reading what he writes altogether.We're not being tits about it. He did some okay to very good stuff, but his JLA is pretty much universally loathed. Or at least has gotten some extremely mixed reactions.

And since his JLA accounts for almost half his DC output, he definitely is not a consistantly good comics scribe.

[40footwolf]

Except that if you read through the thread people are just trashing Meltzer as much if not more than his winning an award. And while I don't think it deserved an Eisner, it was definitely a good issue. I don't understand the argument that the art was bad. It was honestly pretty gorgeous.

[40footwolf]

We're not being tits about it. He did some okay to very good stuff, but his JLA is pretty much universally loathed. Or at least has gotten some extremely mixed reactions.

And since his JLA accounts for almost half his DC output, he definitely is not a consistantly good comics scribe.

SOME of you are being tits about it, and they're the people I can't fathom. I hate Bruce Jones and Judd Winnick but I don't rip on them because I have the good Goddamn sense to not read output from writers I hate.

Also, did you carry that last part over from the other thread I made :eek: ?

[carabas]

Also, did you carry that last part over from the other thread I made :eek: ?Yes indeed. In fact, I messed up. I had several threads open in different tabs, and got mixed up with regards to what thread I was posting in.

Just disregard my post, some people in this thread definitely have been tits.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

And while I don't think it deserved an Eisner, it was definitely a good issue. I don't understand the argument that the art was bad. It was honestly pretty gorgeous.

Well that's the argument here - it may be a good issue, the best of his run, just that it wasn't deserving of an Eisner.

Also, the debate over the art being bad isn't really about that issue - there's only one person who thinks the art is bad, and they said Ed Benes, the regular artist on the book, could have done better.
The rest of us are saying, no, no he couldn't have.

[Pól Rua]

without using adam hughes, joseph linsner, or even terry dodson as an example...what is well done cheese-cake?
I can see not liking cheesecake, but if the problem is not with cheesecake as a concept, then what is wrong with benes'? I think his cheesecake is great.
Check out Mark Schultz, Dave Stephens, Steve Rude or Jim Silke and then tell me that Ed Benes draws good cheesecake.
Hell, on a personal level, I'd throw in Mike Allred, Jaime Hernandez, Ross Campbell, Eduardo Risso, Mitch Byrd, Jim Mahfood...

also, what is wrong with his anatomy? I can see how many see it as the same anatomy that Jim Lee and Michael Turner and other similar artists use but I mean...is his inaccurate, overly exaggerated?
It's not the fact that it's exaggerated, it's the fact that it's aesthetically incompetent.
Bruce Timm draws exaggerated, stylized women, but he has a better grasp of anatomy than Lee or Turner. It's the difference between style and substance. Bruce Timm or Jim Mahfood use exaggerated anatomy, but you can tell that they've mastered the basics of their craft, and so can build on it.
Lee and Turner strike me as guys who've developed their skill by aping other artists' work. As a result, they have plenty of technique but no idea WHY they're drawing something in a certain way.
As a result, when they DO stylize their work, it ends up looking not like a stylization, but a distortion.

[Pól Rua]

Except that if you read through the thread people are just trashing Meltzer as much if not more than his winning an award. And while I don't think it deserved an Eisner, it was definitely a good issue. I don't understand the argument that the art was bad. It was honestly pretty gorgeous.

I'm trashing Brad Meltzer because so far, I have yet to see any writing of his that hasn't been utter crap. I'm calling a talentless hack a talentless hack.

I don't care what you like. What you like is irrelevent.

I like the Wayans brothers movie 'Don't Be A Menace To South Central (While Drinking Your Juice In The Hood)'. It makes me laugh like nobody's business.
But if it received a best movie Oscar, I'd be pretty certain it didn't deserve it.

[Pól Rua]

SOME of you are being tits about it, and they're the people I can't fathom. I hate Bruce Jones and Judd Winnick but I don't rip on them because I have the good Goddamn sense to not read output from writers I hate.

Also, did you carry that last part over from the other thread I made :eek: ?

Oh, and if you're wondering why I read his stuff if I don't like it, I have two answers.

(1) I work in a comic book shop, and try and read almost everything on the shelf, so I can recommend stuff if people ask, and,

(2) I like the Justice League. I'd love to read a Justice League comic, but I have a moral objection to buying crap. If you give people money for crap, they get the impression that crap is what you want and produce more of it. I hate to encourage that sort of behaviour.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I'm trashing Brad Meltzer because so far, I have yet to see any writing of his that hasn't been utter crap. I'm calling a talentless hack a talentless hack.


Archers Quest was alright.

Not great, but alright.

[Pól Rua]

Archers Quest was alright.

Not great, but alright.

Okay, so I'll amend to a mostly talentless hack who's nonetheless capable of mediocracy when he really gives his all.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Okay, so I'll amend to a mostly talentless hack who's nonetheless capable of mediocracy when he really gives his all.

Yup, that's it.

He has written one book where the story was just alright, if forgettable.

[carabas]

It's not the fact that it's exaggerated, it's the fact that it's aesthetically incompetent.
Bruce Timm draws exaggerated, stylized women, but he has a better grasp of anatomy than Lee or Turner. It's the difference between style and substance. Bruce Timm or Jim Mahfood use exaggerated anatomy, but you can tell that they've mastered the basics of their craft, and so can build on it.
Lee and Turner strike me as guys who've developed their skill by aping other artists' work. As a result, they have plenty of technique but no idea WHY they're drawing something in a certain way.
As a result, when they DO stylize their work, it ends up looking not like a stylization, but a distortion.
People like Timm and Mahfood are trained artists, and have learned how to draw normally before developing their own style. They know how anatomy works, how human bodies are fit together, how perspectiv works... and know how to circumvent or play with these conventions for achieving a particular effect.

People like Liefeld, Benez, Lee, have not learned how to do these things, and instead have learned to draw by copying what their favourite artists were drawing. Therefore, they have an incomplete understanding, and can copy but not create.

They are like a very crafty medieval smith who finds a handgun (lost by a time traveler?), which he then manages to duplicate, except that his copy does not work since he does not understand the principles of firearms and how they work.

[Johnny_Luck]

People like Timm and Mahfood are trained artists, and have learned how to draw normally before developing their own style. They know how anatomy works, how human bodies are fit together, how perspectiv works... and know how to circumvent or play with these conventions for achieving a particular effect.

People like Liefeld, Benez, Lee, have not learned how to do these things, and instead have learned to draw by copying what their favourite artists were drawing. Therefore, they have an incomplete understanding, and can copy but not create.

They are like a very crafty medieval smith who finds a handgun (lost by a time traveler?), which he then manages to duplicate, except that his copy does not work since he does not understand the principles of firearms and how they work.

As long as its not really ridiculous exaggeration anime style art I don't care if the human body of a superhero is exact to the normal human. I want my heroes to look good on the page and Benes and Lee manage to do that. So what if their style actually is looks over perfection.

The problem with too many people is that they look for anatomy correct perfect art and anything that isn't must be bad, which is ridiculous. An artist who doesn't always follow the exact rules is more often than not the better artist, but usually hated until years later.

[Tanjint]

1.I think JLA #0 is the best single issue of Meltzer's run and it's a damn good one. and his run gets mixed reviews cause it's a mixed bag: he writes the trinity well. Most of the rest...not so well.

2. I really appreciate your guys' detailed thoughts on the cheesecake/artist comparisons. I may not totally agree but I see what you are saying and understand a lot more than I did.

that said, I see what you're saying but I can still really enjoy Lee and Benes and others work. liefeld not so much (though I can totally respect his craft) but I can still really enjoy Lee and Benes.

I guess I was convinced Benes did good cheesecake once I saw this image of Spidey surrounded by Mary Jane and Black Cat both in black leather outfits...and I think he did a similar one of Bats with Catwoman and some other chick who I can't remember. Not the best, but I thought it was good stuff.

nice calls with Timm and Mahfood. Have you guys read Mahfood's Felt II comic that came out sort of in tandem with the felt II album? good stuff.

THAT said, can you not enjoy their(benes, lee, etc.) work because you can't enjoy it? or because you know there's other stuff you enjoy more? To me the latter is kind of silly, but I have to respect it if that's where you coming from.

-T

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

. liefeld not so much (though I can totally respect his craft)

This may sound like I'm pulling the piss to you, but what craft does Liefeld have?

He has no anatomy skills, he has no storytelling (layout) skills, he has actually regressed as an artist... where is the craft?

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

THAT said, can you not enjoy their(benes, lee, etc.) work because you can't enjoy it? or because you know there's other stuff you enjoy more? To me the latter is kind of silly, but I have to respect it if that's where you coming from.

-T

I can enjoy Lee - his art does have some dynamic to it, but Benes just leaves me flat.

It's like watching a VHS that has been taped over for several generations, and every generation has lost some quality/purity... he's aping Lee, who was aping Adams, who was aping Infantino etc

(Although there's a chance there's more between Lee and Adams... possibly some Chaykin and Byrne in there as well)

[Tanjint]

you're talking art adams right?

nah, I'm not mad about the liefeld comments. he's hardly a favorite but I think he works hard to make his images look cool and it sometimes pays off nicely. I think of deadpool, for example.

-T

[carabas]

The problem with too many people is that they look for anatomy correct perfect art and anything that isn't must be bad, which is ridiculous. An artist who doesn't always follow the exact rules is more often than not the better artist, but usually hated until years later.But the artist who doesn't follow those rules still has to know those rules. I think you misinderstood my post.
A superhero can be overmuscled with impossible breast and all that, but a good artists will at least know how to connect a foot to an ankle, how to properly use foreshortening, how to draw more than two or three different faces and expressions, and which way an arm can or cannot bend.
Trained artists with even an extreme style (Jim Mahfood, Kelly Jones, Mike Mignola), or who speciallise in cheesecake (like Frank Cho, Terry Dodson) know this, and know how and when to ignore the rules.

Untrained artists like Jim Lee, Greg Land, Rob Liefeld... do not, and can only copy what they have seen.

[carabas]

It's like watching a VHS that has been taped over for several generations, and every generation has lost some quality/purity... he's aping Lee, who was aping Adams, who was aping Infantino etcIsn't Lee primarily aping manga like Fist Of The Northstar?

[dancj]

I'm surprised at some of the complaints about Lee. I don't much like the guy's work, but I've always been under the impression that he has a very good grasp of anatomy and that his distortions were deliberate artistic choices.

My problems are things like:
1 - His faces and builds are all the same
2 - His work is incredibly stiff
3 - His costume designs are abysmal
4 - The artistic style he's developed doesn't appeal to me.

Obviously 4 isn't a fault. Just part of why I personally don't like his work. He did a story in Batman: Black and White where he imitates Frank Miller's work and it's a lot better (for my tastes) than his normal stuff. Unfortunately it's still very stiff.

[Tanjint]

he does a lot of Miller influenced stuff in ASBAR for obvious reasons too. He also has great inkers and colorists...his books come out awesome. I wouldn't want him on every book but he's awesome for big action stuff like Batman and X-Men.

-T

[carabas]

He also has great inkers and colorists...his books come out awesome.It's got a lot of pizaz and looks awesome at first sight, but if you look at it a bit closer, it's the emperors's new clothes.

[Pól Rua]

People like Timm and Mahfood are trained artists, and have learned how to draw normally before developing their own style. They know how anatomy works, how human bodies are fit together, how perspectiv works... and know how to circumvent or play with these conventions for achieving a particular effect.
Awesome. Thanks, you put that so much better than I did.

As long as its not really ridiculous exaggeration anime style art I don't care if the human body of a superhero is exact to the normal human. I want my heroes to look good on the page and Benes and Lee manage to do that. So what if their style actually is looks over perfection.
Reading comprehension is important.

[Pól Rua]

THAT said, can you not enjoy their(benes, lee, etc.) work because you can't enjoy it? or because you know there's other stuff you enjoy more? To me the latter is kind of silly, but I have to respect it if that's where you coming from.

-T

No, I can't stand their work because it's BAD.
It's not like I'm listening to, say, a cover of a good song by a mediocre singer, and I keep thinking, "Boy, the original was so much better than this."
It's like listening to a cover of a good song by a drunken, tone-deaf jerkoff in a karaoke bar. I keep thinking, "This guy is terrible. Get him the hell off the stage."

If I can stretch the music metaphor a little further, Jim Lee is like Right Said Fred.
I thought ''I'm Too Sexy' was a pretty slight novelty song, but it was funny in all the right places, and I even liked it a little, but the fact is, he has no range and he keeps trying to flog the same thing years later.
Ed Benes is a Right, Said Fred Tribute Band.

[Pól Rua]

I'm surprised at some of the complaints about Lee. I don't much like the guy's work, but I've always been under the impression that he has a very good grasp of anatomy and that his distortions were deliberate artistic choices.

My problems are things like:
1 - His faces and builds are all the same
2 - His work is incredibly stiff
3 - His costume designs are abysmal
4 - The artistic style he's developed doesn't appeal to me.

I think the main problem with Jim Lee's work is that it's an accumulation of schtick rather than any kind of universal style. A classic case of knowing how to do something, but not why.
1. He fills panels with lots of little lines, but has no idea why he does it.
2. His layouts and compositions are poor, His storytelling is negligible,
3.. His figures are extremely posed and static,
4. He lacks versatility
and he doesn't seem to know how to do anything except ape those who came before him.

[Johnny_Luck]

I like Lee, Benes, because honestly even if they don't draw everything line for line like people want, they make the pictures look pretty. They go to look and substance over the perfection which means small things will be overlook.

Regardless of Greg Lands tracing or not, his run of Ultimate FF was amazing and it looked good. He really was the only reason most people picked up and kept reading Ultimate Power regardless of horrid dialog and lack of story. Does it mean he knows how to draw really well, I don't know. I do however know he knows what looks good on the page and what draws the eye and what doesn't.

Lee's Hush is generally known as one of the strongest batman stories more for his amazing art on it than for the story, though I like the story too.

Bene's work on both Birds of Prey showed he could do different faces, costumes, poses, and motions very well and honestly I think his JLA is extremely under-rated right now.

most of the best art in history has always been out of the bounds of what is generally accepted as what that style should hold.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

most of the best art in history has always been out of the bounds of what is generally accepted as what that style should hold.

Yeah we know - Benes is on a book that sells a heap.

(Just in case you try and use that argument again, Ed Benes is the comic artist equivalent of Mariah Carey or Britney Spears - he's the junk that's popular for a while and then disappears without a trace, not the musician who only gains mass appeal after death).

[Johnny_Luck]

Yeah we know - Benes is on a book that sells a heap.

(Just in case you try and use that argument again, Ed Benes is the comic artist equivalent of Mariah Carey or Britney Spears - he's the junk that's popular for a while and then disappears without a trace, not the musician who only gains mass appeal after death).

Except both are still very popular and well known, and Carey is well known for having actual talent among the pop stars. In fact the thing said most about her is that she actually has a really solid voice. Carey has cds that still sell godly numbers and get top of the charts recognition.

I find it odd those who hate pop music or dislike whats popular attack pop stars and how popular they were over the tons of people from other genres who were just as talentless who have been long forgotten after being huge, like Enimem, Fat Joe, any country star from the 90's, etc.

neither have disappeared yet, and quite frankly Carey probably won't for a very very long time.

It be more correct to say something like Ed Benes is like Johnny Rivers, huge in the 60's/70's but only considered one of the best because of one well known song, even though he has a great list of hit and solid songs.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Except both are still very popular and well known, and Carey is well known for having actual talent among the pop stars. In fact the thing said most about her is that she actually has a really solid voice. Carey has cds that still sell godly numbers and get top of the charts recognition.

I find it odd those who hate pop music or dislike whats popular attack pop stars and how popular they were over the tons of people from other genres who were just as talentless who have been long forgotten after being huge, like Enimem, Fat Joe, any country star from the 90's, etc.

neither have disappeared yet, and quite frankly Carey probably won't for a very very long time.

Dude, the point was that they sell, but aren't true artists - they are gunk, but gunk that sells.
The point being, he isn't some great artist the masses are unable to appreciate - the masses of superhero fans are buying his work now.
He's a flash in the fry pan - he's selling now, but he won't be remembered.


It be more correct to say something like Ed Benes is like Johnny Rivers, huge in the 60's/70's but only considered one of the best because of one well known song, even though he has a great list of hit and solid songs.

No, Benes won't be remembered for anything.
He's a Roger Cruz.

[Johnny_Luck]

Dude, the point was that they sell, but aren't true artists - they are gunk, but gunk that sells.
.

Based on what? You may hate the stuff but just because you dislike it doesn't mean its just horrible stuff that sells well for the sake of it. The idea that there are that many people that liked it says that there are plenty who believe it was/is much more than just gunk.

and saying someone isn't a true artist just based on dislike is beyond stupid. They are just as much of an artist as people previously in the industry and those who will continue to come.

Oh and Benes sells now because people want to buy his artwork, if theres a crap load of people who like it and are actually willing to pick up books based on his name alone that alone says enough people think hes a solid artist with talent. Again this whole hate boils down to trashing someone and saying they don't know what they are doing because of your pref. If he really wasn't a good artist he wouldn't even begin to sell. Just because you don't like it does not mean he is not a worthwhile artist who has added a lot to the industry.

Oh and you should learn what a flash in the pan is before trying to use it. Benes has many years ahead of him in the industry, hes big and will be for a long while. Not to mention he's been around well over long enough to defeat the phrase flash in the pan.

Billy Ray Cyrus was a flash in the pan, Benes is far from it.

[carabas]

If he really wasn't a good artist he wouldn't even begin to sell.This bitright here is where your writings completely and utterly lose any and all credibility.
Lowest common denominator. More often than not, the more crap something is, the better it sells.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Based on what? You may hate the stuff but just because you dislike it doesn't mean its just horrible stuff that sells well for the sake of it. The idea that there are that many people that liked it says that there are plenty who believe it was/is much more than just gunk.

and saying someone isn't a true artist just based on dislike is beyond stupid. They are just as much of an artist as people previously in the industry and those who will continue to come.

In the few pages since you last posted, several people have given reasons as to why he is a bad artist, some of which are even objective one's.


Oh and Benes sells now because people want to buy his artwork, if theres a crap load of people who like it and are actually willing to pick up books based on his name alone that alone says enough people think hes a solid artist with talent.
You're the one who made the argument that great art is rarely appreciated in it's time, I'm just pointing out that he is being brought - so by your argument, isn't great.

Again this whole hate boils down to trashing someone and saying they don't know what they are doing because of your pref. If he really wasn't a good artist he wouldn't even begin to sell. Just because you don't like it does not mean he is not a worthwhile artist who has added a lot to the industry.
He sells even though he isn't a good artist because he draws people in 'kewl' poses, and does lots of ass shots.

What has he added to the industry?
Name one thing, he has added?
Jim Lee at least affected a lot of other artists styles - what artistic splash has Benes actually made?
What did the industry not have before, that it has now?

Oh and you should learn what a flash in the pan is before trying to use it. Benes has many years ahead of him in the industry, hes big and will be for a long while. Not to mention he's been around well over long enough to defeat the phrase flash in the pan.

He's a Roger Cruz.

Billy Ray Cyrus was a flash in the pan, Benes is far from it.

I would put money on it that in two years, if he even has a book, it won't be a companies best seller.

[Pól Rua]

and saying someone isn't a true artist just based on dislike is beyond stupid.

Not as stupid as saying that someone IS a true artist (Whatever the hell THAT is!) just based on like.
I like a lot of terrible crap.

I like Troma films. I like Roger Corman movies. I like Doc Savage novels. They're fun. They entertain me.
That doesn't make them GOOD.

If he really wasn't a good artist he wouldn't even begin to sell.
McDonald's sells a ton of hamburgers. That doesn't make them 'good'. People DO buy things for other reasons, you know.

[carabas]

Bene's work on both Birds of Prey showed he could do different faces.Seriously? Take away superficialities like eye colour, glasses skin colour, hair style... and they're all a bunch of clones. Even Savant looks exactly like Dinah with ratty beard.

[Johnny_Luck]

This bitright here is where your writings completely and utterly lose any and all credibility.
Lowest common denominator. More often than not, the more crap something is, the better it sells.

Dark Knight, Forgetting Sarah Marshall, Iron Man, Spider-man 1 and 2, The Harry Potter Movies I can really go on with other items that show how bogus your theory is, but as you clearly think that your opinion holds true over anyone else's its pointless.

Again and hopefully for the last time, just cause you think its crap does not make it crap. It makes it crap it your eyes.


I would put money on it that in two years, if he even has a book, it won't be a companies best seller.

He's on JLA for another year and I have no doubt that he'll be put on another huge DC book when he is done with that. So yeah I put my money against yours.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

I like Troma films. I like Roger Corman movies. I like Doc Savage novels. They're fun. They entertain me.
That doesn't make them GOOD.

I love reading Phillip K Dick novels, but the man was a terrible writer.

[Johnny_Luck]

Seriously? Take away superficialities like eye colour, glasses skin colour, hair style... and they're all a bunch of clones. Even Savant looks exactly like Dinah with ratty beard.

Not even remotely true. Huntress with the mask is easily the best shes been drawn to date, out of the mask its some of the best face work I have seen.

Not to mention that there is a panel where Cheshire, Lady Shiva and Canary are all on a plane that he drew that I could probably find for your where the hair is different, the eyes, lips, eyelashes, noses, and face structure, are each very clearly different from one to the next not to mention the size of their arms and body are different from one another.

Also he drew vixen better than a lot of people have in the past with the way he did her hair, nose, and chin structure.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

Again and hopefully for the last time, just cause you think its crap does not make it crap. It makes it crap it your eyes.

That argument would hold more weight if you weren't the only person arguing your side.
Sounds like you should reverse the message back to yourself.


He's on JLA for another year and I have no doubt that he'll be put on another huge DC book when he is done with that. So yeah I put my money against yours.

Are you new to comics by any chance?

[40footwolf]

What has he added to the industry?
Name one thing, he has added?
Jim Lee at least affected a lot of other artists styles - what artistic splash has Benes actually made?
What did the industry not have before, that it has now?




It has another artist who can draw pages that are pleasant to the eyes.

I dunno, I think that's about as much as you can ask of one.

[Johnny_Luck]

That argument would hold more weight if you weren't the only person arguing your side.
Sounds like you should reverse the message back to yourself.



Are you new to comics by any chance?

He sells big, he has stuck around for a long time now, he's not going anywhere. You can continue to hate him and won't won't do jack. DC likes him, Dan Likes him, people like him, they be stupid to not keep him and put him on any big title he is willing to take.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

He sells big, he has stuck around for a long time now, he's not going anywhere. You can continue to hate him and won't won't do jack. DC likes him, Dan Likes him, people like him, they be stupid to not keep him and put him on any big title he is willing to take.

Howard Porter was a Wizard 'Top Ten' artist once, back when he was the 'hot' artist on JLA.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

He sells big, he has stuck around for a long time now, he's not going anywhere. You can continue to hate him and won't won't do jack. DC likes him, Dan Likes him, people like him, they be stupid to not keep him and put him on any big title he is willing to take.

Howard Porter was a Wizard 'Top Ten' artist once, back when he was the 'hot' artist on JLA.

[carabas]

He sells big.JLA sells big, regardles of artist. I don't recall Birds Of Prey being a top 10 book when he was on it.

[Scrubz]

What happened to discussing Meltzer? :biggrin:

[40footwolf]

Howard Porter was a Wizard 'Top Ten' artist once, back when he was the 'hot' artist on JLA.
And that was when he was terrible.

Now that he's developed his talent, nobody seems to pay him much mind.

[40footwolf]

Howard Porter was a Wizard 'Top Ten' artist once, back when he was the 'hot' artist on JLA.
And that was when he was terrible.

Now that he's developed his talent, nobody seems to pay him much mind.

[jesse_custer]

I love reading Phillip K Dick novels, but the man was a terrible writer.

There are many people who would nail you to the cross for that. I wouldn't, though. I tried reading him and could not do it.

[Tanjint]

Howard Porter's not bad either. Not everyone has to do weird shit to be good.

I like weird shit too but I don't see anything wrong, especially in superhero comics, with conventionally 'pretty' art.

Sometimes lowest common denominator doesn't mean crap so much as it means simple and easily accessible/universally pleasing.

Are Benes' and Lee's perfect bodied men and women appealing to simplicity and the lowest common denominator? Maybe...does that mean it's crap? I don't think it does necessarily.


-T

[Floyd The Barber]

he has stuck around for a long time now

I had to giggle at this a little. I'm sure people like Corben, Aragones, Perez, etc. would too. I have underwear older than Ed Benes' career.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

JLA sells big, regardles of artist. I don't recall Birds Of Prey being a top 10 book when he was on it.

There was a 5% drop when Benes was off JLA for the Gene Ha issue, but the drop off after Meltzer left is much more massive, so I think it's safe to say that it wasn't Benes that had people reading.

[FunkyGreenJerusalem]

There are many people who would nail you to the cross for that. I wouldn't, though. I tried reading him and could not do it.

I love his books - his ideas and plots can be amazing, but his actual prose is pretty bad, and you can tell when he was making it all up as he went in the middle of a drug binge.

I chose him as an example because I know what I love about his work, but it doesn't blind me to what is wrong with it.

[Johnny_Luck]

I had to giggle at this a little. I'm sure people like Corben, Aragones, Perez, etc. would too. I have underwear older than Ed Benes' career.

you have 16 year old underwear, ewww. Cause he started in 93 and isn't going anywhere soon.

[Floyd The Barber]

you have 16 year old underwear, ewww.

Yeah, probly.

Cause he started in 93 and isn't going anywhere soon.

Yeah I know, I got his Artemis LS from the 90's. Sorry, but that just doesn't seem like a "long time" to me. But it's all relative.

[pgonzo98]

identity crisis and his work on green arrow were really very good.

[reflecto]

I love Brad Meltzer's work. His stuff probably doesn't appeal to the "punchy-punchy-blasty-blasty" type of reader, but I'm okay with that. Give me a Rucka story or a Meltzer story anytime.

Ed Benes is a very talented soft-core pornographer. His work is popular because it's pretty and because of the distorted, demeaning sexualization of the female characters.

[carabas]

I love Brad Meltzer's work. His stuff probably doesn't appeal to the "punchy-punchy-blasty-blasty" type of reader, but I'm okay with that. Give me a Rucka story or a Meltzer story anytime.

Ed Benes is a very talented soft-core pornographer. His work is popular because it's pretty and because of the distorted, demeaning sexualization of the female characters.Spot on. Except for the very talented bit. He's got a few skills, but his range is extremely limited. Milo Manara he's not.