JSA Annual 1 mild spoilers

[Leocomix]

Earth 2 is back! Yay! I always loved Earth 2 heroes back when it was a separate Earth. Plus Geoff Johns tells us who Helena is actually in love with (and that's not Dick). A famous villain dies after 68 years. I was surprised by the character that appears at the end. I guess I shouldn't have. I don't want to fully spoil it. Go read it.

[IvCNuB4]

It still raises more questions than it answers. Is this (new) Earth-2 or a trick of Gog's ? If it is new Earth-2 why do they all look different from the glimpses we got in "52" and in JSA 11 when Jay & Wally used the Cosmic Treadmill to view the multiverse ?

[Leocomix]

They look the same as they did in the 70s and 80s. But it means pretty much that Gog's gifts are poisoned. (I didn't read 52)

[TJ Shoun]

...and why does Kara call herself "Kara Zor-El" instead of "Kara Zor-L" when she's talking to the other Power Girl?

Actually, the strong implication is that Helena has been in love with Dick for her entire life -- and that she was going to tell Harry no when he proposed.

[krammocon]

I thought that it was the Pre-Crisis: Earth-2 AFTER the COIE. Somehow restored as how it's supposed to be when the multiverse survived the first crisis. It moved on, people moved on, some heroes retired and PG, Kal-L and Lois can't be found. Why so? Because PG got folded on New Earth and Kal-L and Lois (who believed that the multiverse was no more) retreated to their "heaven" together with S-Prime and Alex Luthor. Until Infinite Crisis and 52 came.

Now the question is who is that other PG? Why all of a sudden, after long been gone, just in time when our PG got sent back to Earth-2, decided to come back from wherever as well, beat and accused our PG as an impostor? Coincidence or a manipulation of someone we have yet to know? Who's who? I guess we'll find out soon.

It's nice to see old and familiar faces and places on this issue. Anyone noticed Karen say she's Kara Zor-El though instead of Kara Zor-L? Is that an error on Geoff's part or did we missed something in between? Loved this issue to bits still. Artwork is ok on some parts, don't find Ordway's PG beautiful though, but his Huntress is cool. Overall this comic is the bomb!

[ClareQuilty]

Artwork is ok on some parts, don't find Ordway's PG beautiful though,

Ordways art is usually spectacular and quite detailed. Looks to me like it got butchered by Wiacek.

[Choppa]

I thought it was pretty blantantly obvious that Helena is in love with Dick. I'm basing that on the fact that she pretty much flat out says she loves Dick.

Also, an important point, if what these people on Earth-2 are saying is true, then Earth-1 wasn't an algamation of all of the other pre-existing earths. As is said, the characters from other earths existed on Earth-1, but also somehow existed on their own earths.

[Buried Alien]

I thought it was pretty blantantly obvious that Helena is in love with Dick. I'm basing that on the fact that she pretty much flat out says she loves Dick.

Also, an important point, if what these people on Earth-2 are saying is true, then Earth-1 wasn't an algamation of all of the other pre-existing earths. As is said, the characters from other earths existed on Earth-1, but also somehow existed on their own earths.

Something changed between the consolidation in COIE and Alexander Luthor's mucking about in INFINITE CRISIS.

For all we know, there might be another Earth-1 distinct from New Earth...one with a Silver Age Supergirl, Katar Hol Hawkman, etc.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Sabrinaset]

I was kinda looking forward to seeing where Brainwave Jr. was! :redface:

Okay, I did squee when I saw the REAL Dr. Fate and Spectre, though!

[Shellhead]

Too many people are taking this new Earth-2 at face value. Remember, we watched this Earth-2 being created by Mister Mind's cosmic rampagein 52 #52. For example, the pre-Crisis Alan Scott is not on this new Earth-2, because he has been on the only Earth (now "New Earth") since the Crisis on Infinite Earths. The Alan Scott on this new Earth-2 is just an odd side-effect of Mister Mind's rampage.

[Jack Zodiac]

Didn't like it. Disjointed and unfocused, extra-sized but extra-decompressed, left me with more questions than answers, and the art, which should've been fantastic, was muddled by bad inking. And it probably won't be as bad with Justice Society since Johns has a solid art team, but I really dislike this annual being used similarly to his Action Comics Annual to set up plot points that may or may not be picked up on again within a reasonable amount of time. Considering everything going on in the title right now, I can't see how Johns is going to resolve this in Justice Society any time soon.

[WorstThingUS]

...and why does Kara call herself "Kara Zor-El" instead of "Kara Zor-L" when she's talking to the other Power Girl?

Actually, the strong implication is that Helena has been in love with Dick for her entire life -- and that she was going to tell Harry no when he proposed.

I thought it was pretty blantantly obvious that Helena is in love with Dick. I'm basing that on the fact that she pretty much flat out says she loves Dick.


Um, I think it's pretty obvious that The Huntress was going to tell Power Girl that she was in love with her!

And in Infinity Inc. it was made pretty clear that Dick was much, much older than Helena like he should be and not a love interest. It was in the Paul Levitz/Joe Staton Huntress where they "cheated" on the ages to make them seem like contemporaries and toyed with the romance. So actually, the lack of gray hair on Robin was your first clue this wasn't the E-2 she left behind. Also that Lyta speaks of her mother, when the E-2 Wonder Woman died in Infinite Crisis.

[earl]

This annual is only a chapter of this on-going storyline, but I thought it was really good. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out.

Considering how wacked out both the Spectre and Dr. Fate's back stories have become over the years, it was nice seeing a couple of panels with the real deal (or at least seemingly the real thing).

[Doc Goblin]

I should probably mention first that I'm someone who has always had absolutely no interest in anything Pre-Crisis, especially anything "Earth-2" related.

But I liked this issue.

Johns did a good job at making Earth-2 accessible. Even kind of interesting. I think it helped that our gateway character was more Huntress than just Power Girl. It grounded things better, so it's not like we were being reintroduced to this world so much as stumbling into it already in progress.

Not a fan of the other Power Girl showing up. It's led to this kind of cliche confrontation I usually find more annoying than entertaining. That was just an unwelcome interruption to things.

All in all, Earth-2 turned out to be an interesting place to revisit. But I still definitely wouldn't want to see it become a regular fixture in DC again.

[PatrickG]

Um, I think it's pretty obvious that The Huntress was going to tell Power Girl that she was in love with her!

And in Infinity Inc. it was made pretty clear that Dick was much, much older than Helena like he should be and not a love interest. It was in the Paul Levitz/Joe Staton Huntress where they "cheated" on the ages to make them seem like contemporaries and toyed with the romance. So actually, the lack of gray hair on Robin was your first clue this wasn't the E-2 she left behind. Also that Lyta speaks of her mother, when the E-2 Wonder Woman died in Infinite Crisis.

The Earth-1 Wonder Woman died in COIE.

The Earth-2 Wonder Woman faded away and disappeared in IC.

And the Paul Levitz run is my personal Earth-2 canon, with everything before and after branching off. Not really sure why; it wasn't my first exposure to Earth-2. I'm 28 so I never read Earth-2 comics when they were being published.

But I think after reading BRAVE & THE BOLD team-ups, Roy Thomas' ALL-STAR SQUADRON and the JLA/JSA team-ups that Levitz's run was the place where you could see hints of all three.

Thomas took the legacy and "period piece" angle a bit far for me. The JLA/JSA stuff was a bit trippy.

For me, Earth-2 is about the JSA, about a world where the premiere heroes are the originals and where vigilantes formed a secret society that became a fraternity, forged by world war.

The bizarre details add to the appeal with Batman's ward (Robin wasn't so much his son as his buddy) as ambassador to South Africa and later lawyer and Batman's daughter in a tangled up mess of an ambiguous relationship.

The reality, for me, is in the absurdity of it. Real human relationships aren't cut and dried.

I always thought it was interesting that Dick Grayson basically went off and did his own thing and didn't really deal with Helena much until she was in her 30s and he was nearly 50.

Robin was a vigilante at age 9 in 1940. I always hated the attempts to make him older as I felt it took away some of the roughness of the Golden-Age. As I recall, he was just going off to college when Helena was born in the early 50s. But Bruce wasn't really a father figure to him either, so much as he was a cool older guy. I would imagine Batman would be the Fonzie to Robin's Richie the way those old stories read.

The age difference is extreme but it's not like Dick was active in Helena's upbringing or childhood or even a part of the Wayne family. There was a distinction in those old stories; Dick was an orphan who lived at Wayne Manor and an apprentice to Batman -- but he wasn't Bruce's SON.

And a 48 year-old guy and a 30 year-old woman is really not much creepier than Green Arrow and Black Canary. Except that in the worst set of interpretations, Ollie was the oldest guy in the JLA by a matter of several years and she was underage when they started flirting.

I dunno. I always wanted to see some kind of nutty "Earth-2 Gotham Law" drama with crazy old Joker, Helena and Dick, Commissioner Wayne and Green Lantern as Gotham's premiere super-hero. But played up as a generational soap opera/legal drama except with demons and demi-gods and such. But as a Vertigo book, almost a David Kelly supernatural legal drama.

[Leocomix]

Um, I think it's pretty obvious that The Huntress was going to tell Power Girl that she was in love with her!



Well done for catching it. I was wondering how many people were going to get misled. Is that too controversial a subject for DC to tell it straight?

[Sean Walsh]

Ordways art is usually spectacular and quite detailed. Looks to me like it got butchered by Wiacek.

Really? I quite enjoyed this artwork from Ordway, moreso than I have in a few years.

[Karl O'Neill]

Ordway is the man, His art rocked in this issue,

nice Twist at the end.

[Vic Vega]

Well done for catching it. I was wondering how many people were going to get misled. Is that too controversial a subject for DC to tell it straight?

That was my take on it too.

Look how upset Helena looked when PeeGee mentions Dick.

[Leocomix]

And also she says "I can't believe the things I told you"

[ClareQuilty]

Really? I quite enjoyed this artwork from Ordway, moreso than I have in a few years.

Me too. what i was trying to say was that his stuff looks even better when he (i think) inks it. Wiacek was kinda ham-fisted here.

[WorstThingUS]

The Earth-1 Wonder Woman died in COIE.

The Earth-2 Wonder Woman faded away and disappeared in IC.

Actually, everyone on E1 was "reformed" onto the Earth that was the end result which is why you don't get the planet-pushing Superman of the Silver and Bronze age showing up at anytime, no matter what kind of Crisis happens. Though at the end she was returned to the clay from whence she came, i.e., "died." Similarly, the E2 Wonder Woman was taken along with Steve Trevor to live out her days with the gods, but both "faded away" helping Wonder Woman in Infinite Crisis, i.e. they "died."

And the Paul Levitz run is my personal Earth-2 canon, with everything before and after branching off. Not really sure why; it wasn't my first exposure to Earth-2. I'm 28 so I never read Earth-2 comics when they were being published.

The bizarre details add to the appeal with Batman's ward (Robin wasn't so much his son as his buddy) as ambassador to South Africa and later lawyer and Batman's daughter in a tangled up mess of an ambiguous relationship.

The reality, for me, is in the absurdity of it. Real human relationships aren't cut and dried.

I always thought it was interesting that Dick Grayson basically went off and did his own thing and didn't really deal with Helena much until she was in her 30s and he was nearly 50.

Robin was a vigilante at age 9 in 1940. I always hated the attempts to make him older as I felt it took away some of the roughness of the Golden-Age. As I recall, he was just going off to college when Helena was born in the early 50s. But Bruce wasn't really a father figure to him either, so much as he was a cool older guy. I would imagine Batman would be the Fonzie to Robin's Richie the way those old stories read.

The age difference is extreme but it's not like Dick was active in Helena's upbringing or childhood or even a part of the Wayne family. There was a distinction in those old stories; Dick was an orphan who lived at Wayne Manor and an apprentice to Batman -- but he wasn't Bruce's SON.

And a 48 year-old guy and a 30 year-old woman is really not much creepier than Green Arrow and Black Canary. Except that in the worst set of interpretations, Ollie was the oldest guy in the JLA by a matter of several years and she was underage when they started flirting.


As you say, Levitz is your guide and he openly and obviously "altered" the age of Dick Grayson because who wouldn't want Batman's apprentice to eventually find love with Batman's daughter (this "dream" had the unfortunate luck to be realized by Devin Grayson in her Nightwing/Huntress mini-series that Gail Simone and Chuck Dixon had to later clean up). Roy Thomas, however, could have cared less. With Jerry Ordway in the Infinity Inc "Generations" storyline (where's my trade of that great story!?!) he made Dick Grayson the significantly older man he was, precluding any hint of romance. Helena was a baby sister to him and nothing more. But apparently it's not going to be here under Johns as Helena is obvious in love with Power Girl and I wonder if this earth will actually have the Midnighter/Apollo relationship by having its own PG return her affections? Apparently there's just not enough fanboy wanking material out there.

And as far as Green Arrow and Black Canary goes, when they brought Ollie back they de-aged him to close that gap. And all retellings of the original meeting of Dinah and Ollie also has them as peers, essentially removing the May/December aspect of their relationship.

[CBikle]

Um, I think it's pretty obvious that The Huntress was going to tell Power Girl that she was in love with her!

I had a little of that vibe, up to the point that Dick Grayson's name was brought up.

I think the Huntress-PG relationship has been (and is) sisterly; I don't think the "lesbian" implication was intentional.

And in Infinity Inc. it was made pretty clear that Dick was much, much older than Helena like he should be and not a love interest. It was in the Paul Levitz/Joe Staton Huntress where they "cheated" on the ages to make them seem like contemporaries and toyed with the romance.

Those stories were published in the late 70's/early 80's, so the age-gap between the characters was significant but not unbelievable. If you go with the idea that the golden-age Robin was about 8 yrs. old when he first appeared in 1940, that would have made him roughly 50 yrs. old to Helina's estimated age of 25 (twice her age), however, many of the JSA (if not all) received extended lifespans as an unintentional result of an encounter with Ian Karkull in the 40's (this was in an All-Star Squadron annual), so Robin's physical age may've been around the early-mid 30's ?

So actually, the lack of gray hair on Robin was your first clue this wasn't the E-2 she left behind. Also that Lyta speaks of her mother, when the E-2 Wonder Woman died in Infinite Crisis.

Maybe. I'm hoping that this is a post-COIE Earth 2 and not one of the accidental replicant Earths created by Mister Mind.

[Hawkman]

I found the fact that the ending was left open quite surprising, and as such I think it put a bit of a damper on the issue for me. I expected this to be a nice one-shot story featuring Power Girl that would have its own conclusion, and we'd be back to business as usual next month in JSA. Considering how JSA has been one long "To Be Continued" storyline almost without pause since its relaunch, I was looking forward to a self-contained annual here.

Other than that, though, I liked it. It didn't knock my socks off or anything, but it was nice to see a lot of these characters again, even if they aren't ours, per se. Really felt sorry for Karen when the "real" PG showed up and knocked her through that chimney, though. Probably my favorite scene in the entire issue, as it was a lot more emotional than I'd expect a scene of that nature to be.

Ordway's art was nice to see her, too, as it worked incredibly well with the overall feel of the issue, I felt. And the pin-up at the end alone was nearly worth the price of admission. I do so love Dale Eaglesham's artwork.

[The Lucky One]

And a 48 year-old guy and a 30 year-old woman is really not much creepier than Green Arrow and Black Canary. Except that in the worst set of interpretations, Ollie was the oldest guy in the JLA by a matter of several years and she was underage when they started flirting.

My great-uncle married a woman 20 years younger than him. They stayed together for decades, right up until she died, and he hasn't remarried since. That kind of age difference is extreme, no doubt, but it does happen.

As for the issue, I liked it, but I'm also approaching it from the perspective of never having read the old All-Star Squadron stuff or 52. To me this is just "Earth-2" and that's about as complex as I need it to be, but I can definitely understand how inconsistencies about who's alive, who shouldn't be there, how it relates to pre-COIE, etc. would bug folks who know all that stuff. I could have lived without the cliched "other Power Girl appears and immediately starts beating on our Power Girl" angle... not out of character, but how hard would it be for "our" Kara to just voluntarily surrender and let them figure out she's telling the truth? If they've got access to Wonder Woman's lasso or Dr. Fate's magic, shouldn't be too hard.

-D

[FemGeek]

I really enjoyed this one, mostly for the whole nostalgia thing. It was great seeing Earth 2 again, especially Huntress, she was always a favourite of mine - Though this issue seemed to be more about her than Powergirl. I also didnt expect this to have a 'to be continued', but waiting for the conclusion dosen't bother me too much. I didnt pick up on the Huntress in love with PG thing, and I really don't think thats what was implied. Helena was in love with Dick for a while, but neither of them ever said anything, and it kinda got forgotten about.
I also quite liked the team portrait at the end, man there's a lot of people in the JSA these days.

[WorstThingUS]

Those stories were published in the late 70's/early 80's, so the age-gap between the characters was significant but not unbelievable. If you go with the idea that the golden-age Robin was about 8 yrs. old when he first appeared in 1940, that would have made him roughly 50 yrs. old to Helina's estimated age of 25 (twice her age), however, many of the JSA (if not all) received extended lifespans as an unintentional result of an encounter with Ian Karkull in the 40's (this was in an All-Star Squadron annual), so Robin's physical age may've been around the early-mid 30's ?

My hat's off to you, sir! That was an All Star Squadron Annual that none other than Roy Thomas did to explain why 70-year-old men looked 50. He even included wives and girlfriends in the story so they'd be young too. How funny that he ignored it himself.



Maybe. I'm hoping that this is a post-COIE Earth 2 and not one of the accidental replicant Earths created by Mister Mind.

Like the one we saw Bart Allen talking about in Infinite Crisis or the one shown in Justice League of America 0?

I found the fact that the ending was left open quite surprising, and as such I think it put a bit of a damper on the issue for me. I expected this to be a nice one-shot story featuring Power Girl that would have its own conclusion, and we'd be back to business as usual next month in JSA. Considering how JSA has been one long "To Be Continued" storyline almost without pause since its relaunch, I was looking forward to a self-contained annual here.

You're preaching to the choir, buddy. That JSA story is dragging, dragging, dragging and October solicts show how this story will end:

http://comicbookresources.com/news/preview2.php?image=solicits/dccomics/200810/dcu/JSA-Cv20.jpg


My great-uncle married a woman 20 years younger than him. They stayed together for decades, right up until she died, and he hasn't remarried since. That kind of age difference is extreme, no doubt, but it does happen.

I'm not saying it doesn't, but it seems more comic book wish fulfillment than something that would actually happen in this context. I'm sure your great-uncle didn't change her diapers as Dick changed Helena's.

[Mat001]

Didn't like it. Disjointed and unfocused, extra-sized but extra-decompressed, left me with more questions than answers, and the art, which should've been fantastic, was muddled by bad inking. And it probably won't be as bad with Justice Society since Johns has a solid art team, but I really dislike this annual being used similarly to his Action Comics Annual to set up plot points that may or may not be picked up on again within a reasonable amount of time. Considering everything going on in the title right now, I can't see how Johns is going to resolve this in Justice Society any time soon.

As WorstThingUS pointed out, this story isn't going away anytime soon.

[Scott Taylor]

This issue reminded me of that wierd Batman Superman where Huntress and PG were possessed. Not that its a bad thing to remember that issue.

And they seem to be setting up the upcoming PG series with this one.

[$5 Milkshake]

Okay, I did squee when I saw the REAL Dr. Fate and Spectre, though!

Seriously!

I'm so disappointed with the Specter and Dr. Fate in the main DCU, it was awesome to see them as I prefer. One can only hope the Earth 2 versions of them get shunted to the main DCU when PG goes back :wink:

[Joe Acro]

This issue has confused me. Now, I'll give Johns the benefit of the doubt and assume he'll explain things at some point, but that won't stop my mind from figuring out what's going on before he does explain it.

So, Power Girl returns to Earth-2. Then another Power Girl, claiming to be from Earth-2, appears. I can only see this working a few ways. This isn't the right Earth-2. Power Girl's origin is changing again. The other Power Girl is a fake.

I'm hoping for the first.

[Samy]

I love how people are claiming that "OBVIOUSLY it was Dick", and "OBVIOUSLY it was Karen", when they're just projecting their own expectations and world view. The only fact is that it was not confirmed either way, and that means AMBIGUOUS, rather than obviously in either direction.

A future writer could take it in either direction without contradicting anything.

[Ghost Shark]

I grew up reading Roy Thomas' ALL-STAR SQUADRON, so I have a special love of all things Earth 2 related. This was a welcome trip down memory lane.

However, I agree with previous posters, Ordway's art needed a better inker. I had to double check it was him and not someone trying to ape his style.

And the idea of Robin hooking up with Huntress is just kind of icky. I know they aren't related by blood, but it still feels incestuous due to their relationship with Batman.

[WorstThingUS]

I love how people are claiming that "OBVIOUSLY it was Dick", and "OBVIOUSLY it was Karen", when they're just projecting their own expectations and world view. The only fact is that it was not confirmed either way, and that means AMBIGUOUS, rather than obviously in either direction.

A future writer could take it in either direction without contradicting anything.

To be fair, there is a history of flirtation with E2 Robin and this issue specifically mentions it. I just think there were also tremendous clues in the other direction, which could just a red herring. We'll know in a couple of years at the pace this is going.

[Shellhead]

However, I agree with previous posters, Ordway's art needed a better inker. I had to double check it was him and not someone trying to ape his style.

And the idea of Robin hooking up with Huntress is just kind of icky. I know they aren't related by blood, but it still feels incestuous due to their relationship with Batman.

Ordway's artwork looked worse during that OYL run at the end of the previous JSA series. There, his artwork was lightly inked and looked washed out and bland.

Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon have some history together on Earth-1/New Earth. Does that bother you, too?

[jade_nova]

Was one of the buttons the Joker had a reference to Watchmen?

[Ghost Shark]

Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon have some history together on Earth-1/New Earth. Does that bother you, too?

Surprisingly , no.

[Calybos]

Was one of the buttons the Joker had a reference to Watchmen?

Very likely. As the Joker, him having smiley-face stickers all over his wheelchair (not to mention balloons tied to it) was in-character, but the smiley lapel button with the red splotch on it looked straight out of Watchmen.

[IvCNuB4]

And also she says "I can't believe the things I told you"

She was just referring to the fact that she told Kara in confidence that she didn't want to marry that guy because she really loved Robin. Jeez, some of you guys need to stop reading "hot lesbian exchanges" into innocent conversations :biggrin:

I think the Huntress-PG relationship has been (and is) sisterly; I don't think the "lesbian" implication was intentional.
.

Exactly ...

[Shellhead]

She was just referring to the fact that she told Kara in confidence that she didn't want to marry that guy because she really loved Robin. Jeez, some of you guys need to stop reading "hot lesbian exchanges" into innocent conversations :biggrin:

Blame this cover. The sexual tension between them is obvious:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/44474647859.3.GIF

[DDM]

This is not the Earth-2 pre-Crisis On Infinite Earths; therefore, Power Girl is not "home." This is a completely different Earth-2. The Huntress (Helena Wayne) & Robin are dead, killed by Shadow Demons in Crisis On Infinite Earths #12.

Since Justice Society of America is Justice Society of Infinity, something else is going on here. It has to be an alternate version of Earth-2.

[Tom]

Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon have some history together on Earth-1/New Earth. Does that bother you, too?

Barbara Gordon isn't the daughter of the man who raised Dick. Not to mention, the Dick Grayson of E2, being "the sensational character find of 1940," would have to be almost 80 years old.

[Sabrinaset]

Barbara Gordon isn't the daughter of the man who raised Dick. Not to mention, the Dick Grayson of E2, being "the sensational character find of 1940," would have to be almost 80 years old.

Well, you have to blame Ian Karkull for Robin looking like he's decades younger than he really is. And who knows about Helena ... maybe she has that Anna Nicole Smith thing going on for Robin :wink:

[WorstThingUS]

Dick Grayson and Barbara Gordon have some history together on Earth-1/New Earth. Does that bother you, too?

Considering Batman didn't raise Barbara Gordon as the E2 Batman did both Robin and The Huntress, your question makes zero sense.

Oh, and did anyone else notice the costume differences in the two Power Girls?

[Jeff O.]

Was one of the buttons the Joker had a reference to Watchmen?


Very likely. As the Joker, him having smiley-face stickers all over his wheelchair (not to mention balloons tied to it) was in-character, but the smiley lapel button with the red splotch on it looked straight out of Watchmen.

I think it was Joker's way of saying, "I'm The Comedian around here -- and don't you forget it!"

[Leocomix]

I reread the issue. It's the close-ups on the face of Helena that sell it (also the surprise of Kara when Helena suddenly holds her in her arms). I stand by what I said. So Ordway either did a very good job conveying the emotions or a bad one. I think he did it perfectly.

[LtMarvel]

I loved the panel of the Specter's reflextion on the helmet of Dr. Fate.

[Chris Daley]

I reread the issue. It's the close-ups on the face of Helena that sell it (also the surprise of Kara when Helena suddenly holds her in her arms). I stand by what I said. So Ordway either did a very good job conveying the emotions or a bad one. I think he did it perfectly.

For me, it was specifically the wide eyes on those pages that at least opened up the question. Ordway seems to use them throughout, though. I think this is his way of creating a more innocent world, i.e. Earth 2. At least, that is my take.

Like a lot of folks, I wondered if Johns was getting these two tickets to a Sappho lecture, but on the whole I think it was unintentional. I think the earlier scene where she won't hug Grayson implies that it really is him she loves. However, it seems like an odd subplot to stick into this annual and, coupled with Ordway's portrayal of the two, certainly opens the door for an L Word moment.

Overall, I was surprised how much I liked the issue and how much I've missed these characters since Infinity Inc collapsed under its own depressive weight. I for one wouldn't mind a JSI mini/maxi by this team.

Best,

Chris

[Captain Smith]

If these versions of Fate and the Spectre are powered up to the max levels, they are some of the most powerful players around. They are capable of understanding the current crisis and breaking out of the confines of their 'Earth'. They could lay waste to Libra and the silly villians of FC on the 'real' Earth.

I'll bet you this Earth gets destroyed - sigh.

[Pinnacle]

I don't understand why anyone would think that Huntress is in love with Power Girl. Right after Power Girl says: "It's..It's Dick, isn't it?"

Huntress replies:

And now, don't you see, Karen? I can never leave Harry. Not like this. I can't ever leave him like this. It's my fault. The Joker wanted to recreate Two-Face and he found out everything and it's my fault.

It's clear she's in love with Dick from that statement. Pay attention to what's written people.

Also, this is the Earth-2 from 52 so we can't really criticize any characterizations. This is not the old Earth-2. All we know about this Earth is from two wordless pictures in 52 #52. There may have been a couple of similar pictures in Countdown but I can't remember. Sure, the characters in that issue had different costumes on but I'm okay with that. And most of the characters in those pictures weren't even in this issue (Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman). There was however a newspaper that said Superman and Power Girl were missing. My interpretation is that Gog sent Power Girl to this Earth-2 to show her that she was already where she belonged. Note how she was already missing her teammates on New Earth. When she returns, she will no longer be "Lost." Since this is a new Earth-2, Johns is totally allowed to tinker with making it an homage yet distinct from the original Earth-2. So, there's no problem with Dick and Helena as far as age difference goes. I'm also hoping that we get a new Kal-L. The original Kal-L died but that doesn't mean there can't be a new one on this Earth-2 that has simply been missing for some other reason. See how Jade is on this Earth-2 despite being dead.

I did like the homage to the Watchmen. As well as Phillip Wylie's Gladiator and the Map of Krypton in Power Girl's bedroom.

As far as Power Girl referring to herself as Kara Zor-El. Could this be a hint that Power Girl of New Earth is a combination of old E-2 Power Girl and pre-Crisis Supergirl. I say this because of her thinking that the cat might be Streaky.

[LtMarvel]

How about Dick and Helena basically being step siblings?

[Pinnacle]

How about Dick and Helena basically being step siblings?

I think that's why Helena was hesitant to reveal such feelings. I think it was this rather than a 10-15 year age difference that has prevented her and Dick from being together. From what Helena said, the Joker must have found out that Helena Wayne/Huntress were one and the same which caused him to also figure out that while Helena Wayne was dating this D.A. in her civilian life she was obviously in love with Robin as Huntress and vice versa despite the couple's rejection of such feelings. By hurting her boyfriend, he prevented her from ever taking control of her relationships with both men.

But we don't have to have Dick changing Helena's diaper when she was younger as some here have insinuated. He may not have ever lived with the Waynes while Helena was born. He may have been off at a boarding school or college (which would admittedly make him much older). Or for all we know this Robin's parents never died (Note: I don't imagine this to be true but from what we know it is possible.)

If I was writing or Johns' editor, I would fix it by having Dick about 12-15 years older than Helena (which while much older isn't exactly extreme). He would have been in a private boarding school and studying abroad on occassion when she was a child. This would mean that they would close but he would never have thought of her as a step-sister but more of as Bruce's daughter. Which would make the potential relationship awkward but not icky.

[Binker]

JUSTICE SOCIETY OF AMERICA ANNUAL #1

Written by Geoff Johns
Art by Jerry Ordway
Cover by Alex Ross
Edited by Michael Siglain

PLOT:
"Welcome to Earth-2!" Power Girl has made a life for herself on our world, as a member and chairwoman of the Justice Society of America and as a hero in her own right. But she's never stopped dreaming of one day returning to her Earth, the parallel world where the members of the Justice Society were the only heroes. Where her best friend was Helena Wayne, the daughter of Batman. And where evil was a little easier to fight…wasn't it? As her greatest wish comes true, Power Girl's about to find herself back on Earth 2, surrounded by friends she thought she'd lost forever.

REVIEW:
Here we are; the first annual for JSA! Since it was revealed, we've been wanting to read about Power Girl's return to Earth-2. Not only is it part of the current "Gog" storyline, but it will lead into the upcoming Power Girl ongoing series. The Earth-2 Huntress, Earth-2 Robin, and many more that those who read the comics back in DC's pre-Crisis days will return in this annual. And Goeff Johns is writing it, so how will it be bad? Here is the annual!

As what we've been told what to expect; Power Girl returns to Earth-2. Well, sorta, and I'll get to that. For fans of these characters that they've grown up on in the '60s, '70s-80s 'til the first "Crisis" happened, alot of those characters return. We get the usual Earth-2 Huntress, Robin, and JSA, complete with the Earth-2 Infinity Inc like Fury and many others. Other characters are cameos of the Earth-2 versions of Superman, Wonder Woman, Batman, and even the Earth-2 Joker. For those readers who did read them back in the day, it's like a school reunion. For me, on the other hand, it was like meeting people I've only heard about. But of course, like any other story, and the fact that we still have the "Gog" arc going, nothing is all as it seems. Even the Earth-2 versions of Dr. Fate and Spectre say that Earth-2 isn't safe. And that leads to the shocking ending.

That shocking ending happens to be when our Power Girl and the Earth-2 Huntress meet the Earth-2 Power Girl! And THAT was unexpected! Because of that, now the great scenes between our Power Girl and the Earth-2 JSA and Huntress, like the return of a family member, or even the return of a sister like those scenes gave feelings of, are now thrown out the window. Because now, both the Earth-2 Power Girl and Huntress believe our Power Girl is someone like their Clayface; an impostor. And now, thoser two and the Earth-2 JSA are going to hunt her down. And she is still trapped on Earth-2 by the story's end, with the next issue of JSA picking up where our arc and this annual left off.

Overall, and man, was this good, this annual was gave us what we've heard about, but it wasn't like there wouldn't be a surprise or two. Liek I said; for readers who read the Earth-2 adventures of the Earth-2 Huntress, Power Girl, JSA and more, it was like a family reunion. Me, though; it was like meeting those who I had only heard about. Even though there is little chance of actually going and reading good issues of these characters, it weas nive to see the next generation of the Golden Age heroes of DC's old days pre-Crisis. But man, the ending really got me going. And the fact that issue #17 will pick up where this annual, and issue #6 of course, left off is really making me excited as I want to know what's going to happen now. How will Power Girl return home? And how we she survive being hunted by, and try to convince the Earth-2 JSA, Huntress and their Power Girl her story? The way I'm acting now, no wonder everyone loves Geoff!

RATING: Yay

Next Issue: In issue #17; as Power Girl is being hunted by the Earth-2 JSA, back on the main DCU Earth, our JSA face Gog and Magog!

[CBikle]

If I was writing or Johns' editor, I would fix it by having Dick about 12-15 years older than Helena (which while much older isn't exactly extreme). He would have been in a private boarding school and studying abroad on occassion when she was a child. This would mean that they would close but he would never have thought of her as a step-sister but more of as Bruce's daughter. Which would make the potential relationship awkward but not icky.

The problem with that is that the Earth 2 Dick Grayson was born in the early 1930's, which in real time, would put him in his mid-70's and if Helena is 15 years younger, that'd make her a 60 year old woman (which she clearly isn't).

[LtMarvel]

If I were Power Girl, I'd fly into JSI headquarters, sit down at the meeting table and write, "I'm confused, too. How about we talk?" on the white board.

And no, that romantic relationship with Dick and Helena is icky. There is no way to fix that.

[Pinnacle]

The problem with that is that the Earth 2 Dick Grayson was born in the early 1930's, which in real time, would put him in his mid-70's and if Helena is 15 years younger, that'd make her a 60 year old woman (which she clearly isn't).

This is not the Earth-2 Dick from Pre-Crisis. They're both completely new characters. They can be any age that the writer wishes them to be since nothing has been established. And why can't this Earth-2 be set in the 1950s?

[Pinnacle]

If I were Power Girl, I'd fly into JSI headquarters, sit down at the meeting table and write, "I'm confused, too. How about we talk?" on the white board.

And no, that romantic relationship with Dick and Helena is icky. There is no way to fix that.

I agree as far as Power Girl is concerned. But how can Dick and Helena be icky? We have no idea what their backstory is.

[HaroldAllnut]

I was intrigued. I'm actually in the process of rereading my old JSAs to decide whether or not I may add this series back to my pull list.

[Steward Ace]

Anyone else wondering what the deal on the pin-up was? Are the characters not shown on the inset piece (the one the artist is working on) those that may be leaving the team shortly?

[LtMarvel]

I figured it was filler (and not up to date).

[LtMarvel]

Dick's father: Bruce Wayne (adopted or legal custodian)

Helena's father: Bruce Wayne

Dick + Helena = icky

[Steward Ace]

I figured it was filler (and not up to date).

If it was not up to date, then why do we have Judomaster, Hourman, and others who should have been shown if he was accurately painting the group not appearing in the inset?

It's Hourman that really throws me, since Liberty Belle is clearly visible. Some omissions just don't make sense in that picture.

[dupersuper]

I don't understand why anyone would think that Huntress is in love with Power Girl. Right after Power Girl says: "It's..It's Dick, isn't it?"

Huntress replies:

And now, don't you see, Karen? I can never leave Harry. Not like this. I can't ever leave him like this. It's my fault. The Joker wanted to recreate Two-Face and he found out everything and it's my fault.

It's clear she's in love with Dick from that statement. Pay attention to what's written people.

Also, this is the Earth-2 from 52 so we can't really criticize any characterizations. This is not the old Earth-2. All we know about this Earth is from two wordless pictures in 52 #52. There may have been a couple of similar pictures in Countdown but I can't remember. Sure, the characters in that issue had different costumes on but I'm okay with that. And most of the characters in those pictures weren't even in this issue (Green Lantern, Flash, Wonder Woman). There was however a newspaper that said Superman and Power Girl were missing. My interpretation is that Gog sent Power Girl to this Earth-2 to show her that she was already where she belonged. Note how she was already missing her teammates on New Earth. When she returns, she will no longer be "Lost." Since this is a new Earth-2, Johns is totally allowed to tinker with making it an homage yet distinct from the original Earth-2. So, there's no problem with Dick and Helena as far as age difference goes. I'm also hoping that we get a new Kal-L. The original Kal-L died but that doesn't mean there can't be a new one on this Earth-2 that has simply been missing for some other reason. See how Jade is on this Earth-2 despite being dead.

I did like the homage to the Watchmen. As well as Phillip Wylie's Gladiator and the Map of Krypton in Power Girl's bedroom.

As far as Power Girl referring to herself as Kara Zor-El. Could this be a hint that Power Girl of New Earth is a combination of old E-2 Power Girl and pre-Crisis Supergirl. I say this because of her thinking that the cat might be Streaky.

I don't think she thought it was Streaky, I think she thought it was her cat from JSA and JLI.

[Infra-Man]

If it was not up to date, then why do we have Judomaster, Hourman, and others who should have been shown if he was accurately painting the group not appearing in the inset?

It's Hourman that really throws me, since Liberty Belle is clearly visible. Some omissions just don't make sense in that picture.

I think some of the characters are obscured by the body of the painter (Norman Rockwell's comic book analogue?) and it's clear there's more of the painting that continues outside the margin of the pin-up. Both of those may account for the possible character omissions.

Great pin up.

[Retrodork]

This is not the Earth-2 pre-Crisis On Infinite Earths; therefore, Power Girl is not "home." This is a completely different Earth-2. The Huntress (Helena Wayne) & Robin are dead, killed by Shadow Demons in Crisis On Infinite Earths #12.

Since Justice Society of America is Justice Society of Infinity, something else is going on here. It has to be an alternate version of Earth-2.

I was hoping somebody would point this out. Robin and Huntress were folded into the post-Crisis Earth just like Power Girl, but likewise without any discernible past. In COIE #11, Robin mentions that the only Dick Grayson he could find in the phone book was Nightwing, and Huntress freaks out because she can't find Batman and Catwoman's graves back at Wayne Manor. Same thing with Wonder Woman and Fury not being recognized by anybody on Paradise Island. Both Dick and Helena are clearly seen getting killed alongside Kole, fighting the Anti-Monitor's shadow demons in COIE #12. They even have a graveside service for both of them in Last Days of the JSA. This ain't the Earth-2 that some of us used to know and love, but it is a very, very close derivation and I can live with that.

[Pinnacle]

Dick's father: Bruce Wayne (adopted or legal custodian)

Helena's father: Bruce Wayne

Dick + Helena = icky

One, you're assuming that Bruce was his adopted or legal custodian which is most likely true but you have no proof of that yet.

Two, the whole thing begins to be icky according to typical American standards when Bruce adopts Dick in the first place as has been typical in the Batman mythos. Personally, I never saw Batman and Robin as being a normal father-son arrangement but more of a mentor-protege. To me, Dick-Helena is similar to Charlie-Zoe on the tv show The West Wing except for the age disparity and length of knowing one another. The occupations of the people involved make normal human interaction difficult so relationships can be unique due to circumstance. If written correctly, I don't think this should be a problem. If you have Dick lusting after Helena when she's fourteen, then it's icky. But if the relationship develops after they've both been living adult lives (possibly even after Bruce and Selina have died), then I personally don't have a problem with it. Sometimes with adults, relationships develop where they might have been inappropriate earlier. For example, a widow might marry a brother-in-law or sister-in-law. Someone might marry a childhood friend's little sister many years later. These things happen. And when referring to people who dress up in tights and fight crime, I can imagine they might occur more often.

And by most definitions, Helena's parents' relationship shows that she hasn't had the most normal of role models.

[Pinnacle]

I don't think she thought it was Streaky, I think she thought it was her cat from JSA and JLI.

Good catch. I concede that particular point.

[Retrodork]

One, you're assuming that Bruce was his adopted or legal custodian which is most likely true but you have no proof of that yet.

Two, the whole thing begins to be icky according to typical American standards when Bruce adopts Dick in the first place as has been typical in the Batman mythos. Personally, I never saw Batman and Robin as being a normal father-son arrangement but more of a mentor-protege. To me, Dick-Helena is similar to Charlie-Zoe on the tv show The West Wing except for the age disparity and length of knowing one another. The occupations of the people involved make normal human interaction difficult so relationships can be unique due to circumstance. If written correctly, I don't think this should be a problem. If you have Dick lusting after Helena when she's fourteen, then it's icky. But if the relationship develops after they've both been living adult lives (possibly even after Bruce and Selina have died), then I personally don't have a problem with it. Sometimes with adults, relationships develop where they might have been inappropriate earlier. For example, a widow might marry a brother-in-law or sister-in-law. Someone might marry a childhood friend's little sister many years later. These things happen. And when referring to people who dress up in tights and fight crime, I can imagine they might occur more often.

And by most definitions, Helena's parents' relationship shows that she hasn't had the most normal of role models.

Thank you for pointing that out. This was starting to turn into a juvenile, rather parochial discussion in that regard. This isn't a Vladimir Nabokov novel, folks. And Helena isn't Lolita. Once you get past a certain age, the 'May-December' relationship, for lack of a better word, isn't all that uncommon. Besides, even if Dick is chronologically in his 70's, you've still got his physical age retarded due to the Ian Karkull incident (assuming that happened on this Earth as well as the original Earth-2). What do you expect him to do? Troll retirement homes for pick-ups and scan the AARP personals section? The potential for a relationship between the two of them, mainly due to the type of extreme lifestyle they lead as superheroes definitely tends to lend itself to non-conformist choices. I'm surprised that it doesn't happen in comics more often. Apollo and Midnighter aside, I'd say the most realistic rendition was Starman's extramarital affair with Black Canary. Extreme situations, heat of the moment, forbidden fruit, etc.

[CBikle]

This is not the Earth-2 Dick from Pre-Crisis. They're both completely new characters. They can be any age that the writer wishes them to be since nothing has been established. And why can't this Earth-2 be set in the 1950s?

Nah that'd make no sense and it's a terrible idea; these characters are still based on the original Earth 2 and that includes the war time setting.

And frankly, having the characters set in the 50's rather than the 40's, doesn't really resolve the age differences between Robin and Huntress.

[Pinnacle]

Nah that'd make no sense and it's a terrible idea; these characters are still based on the original Earth 2 and that includes the war time setting.

And frankly, having the characters set in the 50's rather than the 40's, doesn't really resolve the age differences between Robin and Huntress.

Grant Morrison, who admittedly is not the writer of this particular comic but still has a pretty good idea of what's going on, has said this is not the old Earth-2. It is based on the original Earth-2. I've been saying that all along. It's a homage. And in my opinion, I think it should stay as faithful as possible. What I am saying is that nothing that occured previously to the old Earth-2 characters has to be canon.

When I meant set in the fifties I was referring to that as in opposition to the 21st century. I was saying that in response to posts referring to Robin as being 70-ish now. Personally, I would set this comic in the beginning of the Silver Age of this particular Earth which would allow for the Infinity-era heroes to be the Justice Society.

And I think Robin should be 15 years older than Huntress. I was saying you could solve major dilemnas by picking and choosing continuity where you want to as it is a new Earth-2. I don't know the complete history of the old Earth-2 but from the impression of some I was gathering that Helena was a child that was born late in the lives of her parents. That's the type of thing that can be changed. You don't have to make sure that Robin is twenty years older than Helena because some older comic had him in college when she was born or you don't have to make it where they grew up together and had a legitimate sibling relationship because older comics had him as a teenager helping to change her diaper. You can pick and choose as you wish. I hope they stay as true as they can but adjust where the writer wants to if it helps tell the best story. For instance, if a writer has a good reason to have another Kal-L for this Earth then no problem as we don't know what happened to this Earth-2's Superman and Lois.

[LtMarvel]

I think I've got a handle on the Power Girls speculation Our Power Girl is from that Earth. After the Crisis, the fake Power Girl took her place (may have even sent our PG to the New Earth), which is why fake knows what she said to the Huntress.

Assuming that our Power Girl calling her self "El" instead of "L" was a writer/editor mistake...

[Mulett]

I'll be interested to see how this story pans out. I didn't ever believe this was the Earth-2, as we all saw how the new multiverse was created. So I didn't actually ever believe Power Girl was 'going home', more that she was going somewhere very much like her old home.

The arrival of the 'earth-2' Power Girl is probably just a device to keep our Power Girl in the mainstream 'New Earth' JSA. Otherwise, she'd be hopping over to Earth-2 and we'd likely not see her again.

That said, I'd be interested to see the earth-2 Wonder Woman, and find out if she is a new 'Earth-2' creation, or the Wonder Woman from the original Earth-2 last see in Final Crisis.

[Mulett]

Duplicate Post - Deleted

[IvCNuB4]

The two biggest clues: PowerGirl's own cat doesn't know her, and she states more than once "I dont remember leaving". That's because she never left this Earth. She's not from there. That's also why the other PowerGirl is still in the old costume. Because that's the outfit she would've been wearing right afer COIE when she went to search for her Kal-L.
Gog just sent New Earth PG to an alternate Earth, not her original Earth-2 ....

[WorstThingUS]

One, you're assuming that Bruce was his adopted or legal custodian which is most likely true but you have no proof of that yet.

Two, the whole thing begins to be icky according to typical American standards when Bruce adopts Dick in the first place as has been typical in the Batman mythos. Personally, I never saw Batman and Robin as being a normal father-son arrangement but more of a mentor-protege. To me, Dick-Helena is similar to Charlie-Zoe on the tv show The West Wing except for the age disparity and length of knowing one another. The occupations of the people involved make normal human interaction difficult so relationships can be unique due to circumstance. If written correctly, I don't think this should be a problem. If you have Dick lusting after Helena when she's fourteen, then it's icky. But if the relationship develops after they've both been living adult lives (possibly even after Bruce and Selina have died), then I personally don't have a problem with it. Sometimes with adults, relationships develop where they might have been inappropriate earlier. For example, a widow might marry a brother-in-law or sister-in-law. Someone might marry a childhood friend's little sister many years later. These things happen. And when referring to people who dress up in tights and fight crime, I can imagine they might occur more often.

And by most definitions, Helena's parents' relationship shows that she hasn't had the most normal of role models.

Thank you for pointing that out. This was starting to turn into a juvenile, rather parochial discussion in that regard. This isn't a Vladimir Nabokov novel, folks. And Helena isn't Lolita. Once you get past a certain age, the 'May-December' relationship, for lack of a better word, isn't all that uncommon. Besides, even if Dick is chronologically in his 70's, you've still got his physical age retarded due to the Ian Karkull incident (assuming that happened on this Earth as well as the original Earth-2). What do you expect him to do? Troll retirement homes for pick-ups and scan the AARP personals section? The potential for a relationship between the two of them, mainly due to the type of extreme lifestyle they lead as superheroes definitely tends to lend itself to non-conformist choices. I'm surprised that it doesn't happen in comics more often. Apollo and Midnighter aside, I'd say the most realistic rendition was Starman's extramarital affair with Black Canary. Extreme situations, heat of the moment, forbidden fruit, etc.

It's icky because by his own admission in the Levitz/Staton stories that originally appeared in the back of Wonder Woman "I changed your diapers." Cite all the examples you want, but I notice none of those involve one character who has literally known the other since they were born. He knew Selina pregnant, he held Helena as a infant, he was a fully grown adult when she learned to walk and talk, but now I'm supposed to believe he just effortlessly segues into lover? This requires as much suspension of disbelief as accepting flying super-powered aliens and while we accept it, we accept it as part of the fantastic, but you want me to pretend this isn't equally so?

And I resent this inference that this is some type of inferior "American" outlook. just because "it happens in Europe" doesn't make it right. It just means Europe has an even more patriarchal society to render tradition of creepy old men preying on younger women "normal." It's hardly the sign of a more "evolved" outlook when it's actually a statement of a traditional lack of social power of women.

[LtMarvel]

They have the same Dad. That's the ikcy part!

[LtMarvel]

I think the cat can be explained as the Fake PG got the cat, not the real one.

So who was a shapeshifter on Earth 2? Plastic Man couldn't fake the powers...

[Leocomix]

I don't understand why anyone would think that Huntress is in love with Power Girl. Right after Power Girl says: "It's..It's Dick, isn't it?"

Huntress replies:

And now, don't you see, Karen? I can never leave Harry. Not like this. I can't ever leave him like this. It's my fault. The Joker wanted to recreate Two-Face and he found out everything and it's my fault.

It's clear she's in love with Dick from that statement. Pay attention to what's written people.

So? At no point does Helena actually acknowledge what Kara said. Instead Kara made a big blunder at not recognising what Helena was telling her so she purposefully picks up on Kara's statement as if it was what Helena had meant. I think I paid attention beyond the obvious misdirection.

There would be no reason for the writer to include Helena's anger at what she told Kara otherwise.

[Pinnacle]

It's icky because by his own admission in the Levitz/Staton stories that originally appeared in the back of Wonder Woman "I changed your diapers." Cite all the examples you want, but I notice none of those involve one character who has literally known the other since they were born. He knew Selina pregnant, he held Helena as a infant, he was a fully grown adult when she learned to walk and talk, but now I'm supposed to believe he just effortlessly segues into lover? This requires as much suspension of disbelief as accepting flying super-powered aliens and while we accept it, we accept it as part of the fantastic, but you want me to pretend this isn't equally so?

And I resent this inference that this is some type of inferior "American" outlook. just because "it happens in Europe" doesn't make it right. It just means Europe has an even more patriarchal society to render tradition of creepy old men preying on younger women "normal." It's hardly the sign of a more "evolved" outlook when it's actually a statement of a traditional lack of social power of women.

Pay attention. This isn't the same character as that Robin and Huntress. They died in COIE. These are completely new characters. Nothing you said happened to these characters as far as we know.

And effortlessly? I think from the story it was obviously not effortlessly. She had another boyfriend to try to escape her attraction to Dick.

[Pinnacle]

They have the same Dad. That's the ikcy part!

You assume this. We have no knowledge about either Dick's or Helen's pasts prior to this issue.

[Pinnacle]

So? At no point does Helena actually acknowledge what Kara said. Instead Kara made a big blunder at not recognising what Helena was telling her so she purposefully picks up on Kara's statement as if it was what Helena had meant. I think I paid attention beyond the obvious misdirection.

There would be no reason for the writer to include Helena's anger at what she told Kara otherwise.

Wow!!!!! Talk about creating your own idea of what is in Helena's head. She actually DID acknowledge that Karen understood when she said: "And now, don't you see, Karen?" You read one comic about a character and immediately claim to know that she is not telling the truth despite no evidence to the contrary. She's obviously angry that the Joker robbed her of a chance at being with Dick as she never had the chance to tell her boyfriend the truth that she did not love him.

[CBikle]

Pay attention. This isn't the same character as that Robin and Huntress. They died in COIE. These are completely new characters. Nothing you said happened to these characters as far as we know.


I wish you'd stop saying this.

For all practical purposes, this appears to be the post-COIE Earth 2 and, at least as far as appearances go, Johns wanted it to be accurate (Ordway wanted to do a lot more tweaking of looks/costume designs, but Johns specifically didn't want that, he wanted an 80's look).

Because of COIE, of course this isn't the exact same E2, but I'm hoping and assuming it'll be as close as possible and a lot of your suggestions and solutions wouldn't allow for that.

[blackphoenix]

For all we know, there might be another Earth-1 distinct from New Earth...one with a Silver Age Supergirl, Katar Hol Hawkman, etc.



I hope so! That would be super mega hot.:biggrin:

I was kinda dissapointed with the other Power Girl showing up. I was equally pissed at how easily the JSI (that sounds way stupid to me) instantly turned on PG. Even if she isn't their Karen(and I am totally unconvinced that this other PG is the real deal), they've dealt with parallel earths before, so why the hostility? Can't anyone just frakin' talk anymore before slugging it out like hyper- thyroided sixth graders?

Ya know, I always thought Huntress liked Robin just from reading Crisis 12 back in the day, but he looked way too old for her(although he's been "youth-ened" now) and a relationship between them would be totally incestuous!!!! They are both Batman's kids, after all.

[Pinnacle]

I wish you'd stop saying this.

For all practical purposes, this appears to be the post-COIE Earth 2 and, at least as far as appearances go, Johns wanted it to be accurate (Ordway wanted to do a lot more tweaking of looks/costume designs, but Johns specifically didn't want that, he wanted an 80's look).

Because of COIE, of course this isn't the exact same E2, but I'm hoping and assuming it'll be as close as possible and a lot of your suggestions and solutions wouldn't allow for that.

I want a true homage as well but if it is something that is trivial and hinders the telling of a good story then I'm for getting rid of it. Who really cares if Robin changed Helena's diaper in the past? If the writer wants to get rid of that, then I say no problem.

I'll admit that I don't know a whole lot about the old Earth-2 outside of the basics, but I don't see what's the problem in having Dick attend a boarding school in Gotham rather than live at Wayne Manor. I personally never liked the idea of Bruce as Dick's father anyway. He didn't know the Graysons. To me, that's just as icky (to use the term we've been using) as Dick and Helena being an item.

Is there anything specific that I've suggested in previous posts that is unacceptable to you?

I agree that this Earth-2 should be close to the original Earth-2. Most of my posts have been in response to posters using something that happened in previous stories that occured on the old Earth-2. If you want to say that you don't think something should occur because of how it went in past stories then that's one thing. But you shouldn't state that it can't happen by using past stories as proof. The past stories should be a guide to Johns. Not set in stone history is all that I'm saying. I'm just tired of: Dick is a perv if he likes Helen because he once changed her diaper. This can still be a perfect homage to Earth-2 without that particular thing occuring.

[LtMarvel]

She acknowledged that Batman is her dad.

How can Robin not be related to Batman???

[Pinnacle]

She acknowledged that Batman is her dad.

How can Robin not be related to Batman???

Just because Robin was Batman's partner, it doesn't mean he was his son. Was Tim Drake related to Batman prior to the recent adoption after Tim's Dad died? Dick Grayson can be an orphan living somewhere else besides Wayne Manor and still be Batman's partner as Robin.

Anyway, we have to explain if this Robin was born in the 1930s then why he isn't old. So, why can't he be absent in limbo (I like some sort of time-traveling explanation as opposed to Roy Thomas' age retardation solution) while Helena is growing up? That way he never knew her as a little kid but only once she was near adulthood. This Robin looks no older than 40 and if we assume this Earth-2 is set in the latter half of the 1980s then we have to assume that this Robin somehow didn't age for a long period of time.

Now if you want to argue that Robin should be older than he appears in this comic and that should be a major reason why he and Huntress can't be together then I'll agree. But since he doesn't look 60ish then I think whatever makes him look 40 as an explanation as to why he wasn't more like an uncle to Helena.

My major point is that we know little about this Earth-2 so I don't think we should be so quick to rush to judgement and crying about what happened in previous comics. If you want to argue that they should have made something canon from the previous Earth-2 then I have no problem with that. But saying it can't happen because this happened in the old Earth-2 makes your point invalid as we don't know the history of this Earth-2. We can say what we hope it to be but not what it is.

On a personal note, I have never read anything about the original E-2 Batman and Robin but am aware of the basics. I've read here that COIE made some hints that Robin and Huntress liked each other. I also thought from what little I knew that a Robin/Huntress pairing made sense in my book. I've always thought of Batman as more of a boss rather than father figure to Robin so to me having him and Batman's daughter fall for one another makes sense considering the unnatural nature of their lives and how much time crimefighting takes out of their personal lives.

[Pixie_Solanas]

On a side note, can I just say Earth-2 Huntress is much, much hotter than Earth-1's?

[WorstThingUS]

Pay attention. This isn't the same character as that Robin and Huntress. They died in COIE. These are completely new characters. Nothing you said happened to these characters as far as we know.

And effortlessly? I think from the story it was obviously not effortlessly. She had another boyfriend to try to escape her attraction to Dick.

You assume this. We have no knowledge about either Dick's or Helen's pasts prior to this issue.

It's utterly disingenuous for you to keep saying this. There is no story unless it's almost exactly the same as the original E2. Where's the drama and suspsense if this world and the people in it aren't virtually indistinguishable from the original?

That being the case (and it is given what we're told about all the older JSA members in the story itself), Dick Grayson was in college when Helena was born. And it's also a falsehood to keep insisting that there was no father/son component to the relationship between Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson. Bruce Wayne raised him from the age of 8. Of course they've got a father/son dynamic, which makes Helena, whose diapers he changed, who was learning to walk and talk when he graduated college, a sibling. All "ick" reactions are justified.

[Alex L]

It's utterly disingenuous for you to keep saying this. There is no story unless it's almost exactly the same as the original E2. Where's the drama and suspsense if this world and the people in it aren't virtually indistinguishable from the original?

That being the case (and it is given what we're told about all the older JSA members in the story itself), Dick Grayson was in college when Helena was born. And it's also a falsehood to keep insisting that there was no father/son component to the relationship between Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson. Bruce Wayne raised him from the age of 8. Of course they've got a father/son dynamic, which makes Helena, whose diapers he changed, who was learning to walk and talk when he graduated college, a sibling. All "ick" reactions are justified.

Because of the age difference, and because they're not blood-related, I'd say Dick is more of an uncle than a brother -- but yeah, ick.

[Pinnacle]

It's utterly disingenuous for you to keep saying this. There is no story unless it's almost exactly the same as the original E2. Where's the drama and suspsense if this world and the people in it aren't virtually indistinguishable from the original?

That being the case (and it is given what we're told about all the older JSA members in the story itself), Dick Grayson was in college when Helena was born. And it's also a falsehood to keep insisting that there was no father/son component to the relationship between Bruce Wayne and Dick Grayson. Bruce Wayne raised him from the age of 8. Of course they've got a father/son dynamic, which makes Helena, whose diapers he changed, who was learning to walk and talk when he graduated college, a sibling. All "ick" reactions are justified.

The story is that this is not the same E2. That's the whole point. The Earth that Karen lived on is forever gone. This one may be similar but it's not the same one.

Mr. Mind created this world from New Earth. It's kind of like the Superboy-Prime punch but rather than a retcon it made an alternative reality. That means it's a blank slate. Just because something's an homage doesn't mean it's exactly the same. Sure, they seem similar. Johns wants Power Girl to believe she's home at first, but the whole point of this storyline seems to be to prove that she's not. It's not a falsehood to say Bruce/Dick never had a father/son relationship. It's merely a possibility which is all I ever said it was. It's also only a possiblity that they did.

The truth is the Robin that changed Huntress' diaper is DEAD. All the characters from Earth-2 are DEAD or wiped from existence. This is a Earth that did not exist prior to 52 #52. It's similar to that old Earth-2 only in the ways that the writers who write about it from now on want it to be. If they make changes, it is perfectly within their right and doesn't mess anything up from a continuity standpoint. If they want Quebec to be a separate country from Canada, they can. But if they don't, then that's fine too.

Also, since Mr. Mind transformed this Earth from New Earth, there exists the possibility that this Earth-2 has been created from Power Girl's vision of Earth-2.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

Um, I think it's pretty obvious that The Huntress was going to tell Power Girl that she was in love with her!



You know, I after I read the posts on this, I had to go back and re-read it to see if I had just missed this the first time around.

And no, I didn't. I don't think there's any way you can read this in to what Johns wrote without completely ignoring the dialog and foreshadowing.

But YMMV.

[Dr. Hfuhruhurr]

The story is that this is not the same E2. That's the whole point. The Earth that Karen lived on is forever gone. This one may be similar but it's not the same one.

Mr. Mind created this world from New Earth. It's kind of like the Superboy-Prime punch but rather than a retcon it made an alternative reality. That means it's a blank slate. Just because something's an homage doesn't mean it's exactly the same. Sure, they seem similar. Johns wants Power Girl to believe she's home at first, but the whole point of this storyline seems to be to prove that she's not. It's not a falsehood to say Bruce/Dick never had a father/son relationship. It's merely a possibility which is all I ever said it was. It's also only a possiblity that they did.

The truth is the Robin that changed Huntress' diaper is DEAD. All the characters from Earth-2 are DEAD or wiped from existence. This is a Earth that did not exist prior to 52 #52. It's similar to that old Earth-2 only in the ways that the writers who write about it from now on want it to be. If they make changes, it is perfectly within their right and doesn't mess anything up from a continuity standpoint. If they want Quebec to be a separate country from Canada, they can. But if they don't, then that's fine too.

Also, since Mr. Mind transformed this Earth from New Earth, there exists the possibility that this Earth-2 has been created from Power Girl's vision of Earth-2.

I think you are dead-on correct here. I can't believe there's even a question about it. It's not the Earth-2 we knew, because it simply can't be. Earth-2, as we knew it, does not exist any longer.

[LtMarvel]

I think you are dead-on correct here. I can't believe there's even a question about it. It's not the Earth-2 we knew, because it simply can't be. Earth-2, as we knew it, does not exist any longer.
Except.....when did 52 #52 take place? Was it at the dawn of time? 1901? 3154? Pre-Crisis? Post-Crisis?

This could well be the Earth-2 we know and love...

[Pinnacle]

Except.....when did 52 #52 take place? Was it at the dawn of time? 1901? 3154? Pre-Crisis? Post-Crisis?

This could well be the Earth-2 we know and love...

It happened outside of time. To the universe of New Earth. It said the new multiverse were all "an exact copy of ours in every way." Then when Mr. Mind started "eating years and events" from each universe's history he altered them. Could he have altered one to be exactly like the old Earth-2. Absolutely. If the writers choose this, that's the way it is. But it still wouldn't be the old Earth-2. What I've been saying is that we don't know yet. This Earth-2 looks similar to the old one but we don't know that it's an exact replica. I personally hope it's a near copy but not exact if that get's in the way of telling a good story. But regardless of how close this Earth-2 will be to the old Earth-2, it won't be the same one. Based on how the new multiverse was created which was from New Earth's exact copies.

[thor25]

On a side note, can I just say Earth-2 Huntress is much, much hotter than Earth-1's?

Lol add this to the reason why Helena wayne is better than betallini.seriously, even if this is not the old earth two, I hope that still many of the previous histories were identicals or very similars, like brave and the bold 197 (very cool, i expect that this earth had his own version of this)

[LtMarvel]

It happened outside of time. To the universe of New Earth. It said the new multiverse were all "an exact copy of ours in every way." Then when Mr. Mind started "eating years and events" from each universe's history he altered them. Could he have altered one to be exactly like the old Earth-2. Absolutely. If the writers choose this, that's the way it is. But it still wouldn't be the old Earth-2. What I've been saying is that we don't know yet. This Earth-2 looks similar to the old one but we don't know that it's an exact replica. I personally hope it's a near copy but not exact if that get's in the way of telling a good story. But regardless of how close this Earth-2 will be to the old Earth-2, it won't be the same one. Based on how the new multiverse was created which was from New Earth's exact copies.
If it happened outside of time, then these Earths could have been there all along...And that could be the original Earth 2!

[Pinnacle]

If it happened outside of time, then these Earths could have been there all along...And that could be the original Earth 2!

Then Rip Hunter didn't know what he was talking about because he said they were exact copies of New Earth.

[WorstThingUS]

The story is that this is not the same E2. That's the whole point. The Earth that Karen lived on is forever gone. This one may be similar but it's not the same one.

Yes, but be it has to be enough like the previous E2 for her to believe it is. It has to look the same, smell the same and the have to be the same personalities, forged by the same circumstances, otherwise she'd have noticed right when she met them. That being the case, there's no reason not to assume that everyone on E2-A didn't have the exact same background, including Dick changing Helena's diapers.

Mr. Mind created this world from New Earth. It's kind of like the Superboy-Prime punch but rather than a retcon it made an alternative reality. That means it's a blank slate. Just because something's an homage doesn't mean it's exactly the same. Sure, they seem similar. Johns wants Power Girl to believe she's home at first, but the whole point of this storyline seems to be to prove that she's not. It's not a falsehood to say Bruce/Dick never had a father/son relationship. It's merely a possibility which is all I ever said it was. It's also only a possiblity that they did.

The truth is the Robin that changed Huntress' diaper is DEAD. All the characters from Earth-2 are DEAD or wiped from existence. This is a Earth that did not exist prior to 52 #52. It's similar to that old Earth-2 only in the ways that the writers who write about it from now on want it to be. If they make changes, it is perfectly within their right and doesn't mess anything up from a continuity standpoint. If they want Quebec to be a separate country from Canada, they can. But if they don't, then that's fine too.

Also, since Mr. Mind transformed this Earth from New Earth, there exists the possibility that this Earth-2 has been created from Power Girl's vision of Earth-2.

Which again means that all the backgrounds are the same. Hence, Dick + Helena = ick.

[Shellhead]

I liked the two-page scene where Power Girl stormed into the meeting room. It was a nice tribute to a similar scene in Infinity Inc. (volume 1), when Silver Scarab, Fury, Northwind and Nuklon demanded to join the JSA.

[Pinnacle]

Yes, but be it has to be enough like the previous E2 for her to believe it is. It has to look the same, smell the same and the have to be the same personalities, forged by the same circumstances, otherwise she'd have noticed right when she met them. That being the case, there's no reason not to assume that everyone on E2-A didn't have the exact same background, including Dick changing Helena's diapers.



Which again means that all the backgrounds are the same. Hence, Dick + Helena = ick.

It only has to be what the current writers want it to be. It's a whole new Earth. And you're way too obsessed with changing diapers and insinuating lesbian crushes that don't exist.

[LtMarvel]

Then Rip Hunter didn't know what he was talking about because he said they were exact copies of New Earth.
That doesn't contradict what Rip said...

[WorstThingUS]

It only has to be what the current writers want it to be. It's a whole new Earth. And you're way too obsessed with changing diapers and insinuating lesbian crushes that don't exist.

No, it has to be like a previous creation in order for the current story to work.

And I mention the diapers to drive home the objection I and others have to the relationship otherwise it gets too easily dismissed. The lesbian obsession is someone else's deal 'cause I've mentioned it like once. I definitely got that impression but I personally think it's lame. Do something risky like make it guys for once.

[Pinnacle]

If it happened outside of time, then these Earths could have been there all along...And that could be the original Earth 2!

Rip Hunter and Booster were watching it outside of time (I think) but Rip makes it clear that they are actually at the end of Infinite Crisis. So, that means the old multiverse died in COIE. During Infinite Crisis, Alexander Luthor attempted to create a new multiverese that collapsed into New Earth. However, New Earth then split into 52 identical universes. During 52 #52, Mr. Mind alters these universes to be what we have now. So, no this cannot be the old Earth-2.

[Pinnacle]

No, it has to be like a previous creation in order for the current story to work.

And I mention the diapers to drive home the objection I and others have to the relationship otherwise it gets too easily dismissed. The lesbian obsession is someone else's deal 'cause I've mentioned it like once. I definitely got that impression but I personally think it's lame. Do something risky like make it guys for once.

Like doesn't mean exact. And the "diapers argument" is inherently flawed as you have no proof that it happened on this Earth-2. It also makes you seem like a continuity freak. If this Robin saw Batman as a mentor/father figure and never lived with him (not saying it happened only that it's possible), it doesn't mean he would be much different than the old Earth-2 Robin at first glance. They still both risked life and limb fighting crime with Batman. You don't say why you don't like a Robin/Huntress relationship. You simply yell that it's incestuous by shouting "HE CHANGED HER DIAPER!!!!!!!!" over and over despite the fact that that particular situation may not have occurred on this Earth.

And you weren't the first to make the claim the lesbian issue but you were pretty adamant about it despite any shred of evidence. She admits that based on Power Girl's statement that Karen must now understand her dilemna. If that's not a confession of her love for Dick, I don't know what is. If it had been more obvious it would have been terrible writing as exposition would have been placed where dialogue is needed.

[Karl O'Neill]

Solid issue.

Not my fav so far in this series but good all the same.

Loved the poster on the last page.

[WorstThingUS]

Like doesn't mean exact. And the "diapers argument" is inherently flawed as you have no proof that it happened on this Earth-2. It also makes you seem like a continuity freak. If this Robin saw Batman as a mentor/father figure and never lived with him (not saying it happened only that it's possible), it doesn't mean he would be much different than the old Earth-2 Robin at first glance. They still both risked life and limb fighting crime with Batman. You don't say why you don't like a Robin/Huntress relationship. You simply yell that it's incestuous by shouting "HE CHANGED HER DIAPER!!!!!!!!" over and over despite the fact that that particular situation may not have occurred on this Earth.

And there's no proof Bruce Wayne didn't beat Selina Kyle but I'm pretty sure that didn't happen here either, because like PG we are meant to assume that this is just like E2 until we're shown different. Have you been shown different? No. So, until then, HE CHANGED HER DIAPERS!

And since you need it spelled out to you, I find it difficult to believe that a decent man, a hero, is ever going to look upon a girl he's known from birth, whom he saw learn to walk and talk when he was fully grown man, as a romantic interest. It's fanwank and fantasy that Robin must hook up with Batman's daughter.

And you weren't the first to make the claim the lesbian issue but you were pretty adamant about it despite any shred of evidence. She admits that based on Power Girl's statement that Karen must now understand her dilemna. If that's not a confession of her love for Dick, I don't know what is. If it had been more obvious it would have been terrible writing as exposition would have been placed where dialogue is needed.

It's a little too deliberately cutesy vague, so if it's not the case you are definitely meant to assume it is, the way Helena talks about how alone she was after PG's disappearance and how she just won't say what the reason is she was going to object to the proposal even though PG offers Dick as a reason. I'm not the only person who saw it that way and I'm more than bored with the "lipstick lesbian" trend in superhero comics, so I wasn't looking for it.

[Pinnacle]

And there's no proof Bruce Wayne didn't beat Selina Kyle but I'm pretty sure that didn't happen here either, because like PG we are meant to assume that this is just like E2 until we're shown different. Have you been shown different? No. So, until then, HE CHANGED HER DIAPERS!

I sense sarcasm. But you're proving my point. I love being true to continuity. But this just fits the stereotypical image of the obsessed comic book fan bemoaning that some minor detail that occurred in a comic over thirty years ago has been ignored by current writers.

And since you need it spelled out to you, I find it difficult to believe that a decent man, a hero, is ever going to look upon a girl he's known from birth, whom he saw learn to walk and talk when he was fully grown man, as a romantic interest. It's fanwank and fantasy that Robin must hook up with Batman's daughter.

We know nothing about Dick's feelings for Helena. All we know is that she is deeply in love with him.

It's a little too deliberately cutesy vague, so if it's not the case you are definitely meant to assume it is, the way Helena talks about how alone she was after PG's disappearance and how she just won't say what the reason is she was going to object to the proposal even though PG offers Dick as a reason. I'm not the only person who saw it that way and I'm more than bored with the "lipstick lesbian" trend in superhero comics, so I wasn't looking for it.

You need to read the issue a lot more carefully. She missed Power Girl because "With Dad gone, There was no one else I could talk to." She misses a confidante. Someone she could trust to tell her feelings concerning Dick to. She knows that while her dad might not have approved of her having feelings for Dick. She's still his daughter and would listen. Plus, he married someone who he used to be a criminal so he knows about unconventional relationships. Karen, meanwhile, is her best friend and would be understanding unlike others might possibly be.

More proof: She doesn't want anything to do with Dick particularly for him to touch her. And she tells Karen upon hearing that Dick told her that she was going to get engaged to Harry Sims, that "Dick doesn't know anything."

From those two situations, it is clear that she doesn't want to have anything to do with Dick and he has no idea that she loves someone other than Harry Sims. If Helena is in love with Karen, why is she upset with Dick?

Also, it seems to me that if she was in love with Karen, then "Uncle" Dick would be someone that she could talk to.

And she does affirm Power Girl's assertion that she loves Dick. Where I come from after someone asks a question they think they know the answer to as Karen did, an answer of "And now don't you see?" is considered an affirmation.

[CBikle]

I think it'd be funny if the Earth 2 storyline finishes without resolving the whole Robin-Huntress relationship.

[CMBMOOL]

Well all this talk about a reborn Earth-2, makes me glad that I still read the Amazing Spider-girl, the MC-2 universe daughter of Peter and Mary Jane Parker. :evilsmile:

[Lupek]

I liked it. I don't read JSA. Didn't read 52. I have maybe 2 or 3 issues of All Star Squadron in a box in my mothers attic that I haven't read in 25 years or more. I wasn't a big DC fan back then. So I am not sure what Earth is what and which details have been altered. I really don't care so much about that stuff anyway. I liked the story and the version of E2 that was shown.

It was cool to see the real deal Spectre and Dr Fate. But I would have also liked to have seen Wildcat Ted Grant. I was also bit disappointed this wasn't a self contained story.

I get the feeling this won't come to pass but a Powergirl book set in this New E2 universe is much more appealing to me than a Powergirl book set in the regular DCU. Helena Wayne is just incredibly interesting. The other Huntress just seems like a superfluous bat family member.

Also...the other PG's costume (the one without the boob port hole) is nicer. Silver Scarab...cool name,bland costume. And the E2 Dr Midnight needs to loose those giant cuffs :wink:

[Chad]

You know, I after I read the posts on this, I had to go back and re-read it to see if I had just missed this the first time around.

And no, I didn't. I don't think there's any way you can read this in to what Johns wrote without completely ignoring the dialog and foreshadowing.

But YMMV.

I just read the issue and I thought the same thing - "this is nothing like what I expected the issue to be based on the posts I've come across".

I found many more contradictions between the Earth 2 Superman from Infinite Crisis (ie. his lack of heroism, his selfishness) and his previous appearances than I did with the Earth 2 world presented in this story and it's established history, yet we were specifically told that Johns Earth 2 Superman was the Classic Earth 2 version. It looks exactly like the old Earth 2, it's called Earth 2, the red skies are referenced, Power Girl regards it as Earth 2, her story of what happened there ("everything was folded in on itself") is addressed, they're missing an Earth 2 Superman and Lois Lane, etc, etc.

If it turns out that this isn't Classic Earth 2 there's nothing in this issue that supports that idea.

[Retrodork]

If it happened outside of time, then these Earths could have been there all along...And that could be the original Earth 2!

Sorry, this sounds like wish fulfillment clutching at straws here. I think the majority of people here are of the opinion that this Earth is in no way, shape of form the original Earth-2. Its gone, wiped out, lives on only in our memories and on this very, very close counterpart. The original Helena and Dick died. We all saw it. There was a funeral and everything, tears, weeping, gnashing of teeth and rending of clothes, the whole nine yards. Its a new Earth with very similar counterparts. Move on....

[WorstThingUS]

I sense sarcasm. But you're proving my point. I love being true to continuity. But this just fits the stereotypical image of the obsessed comic book fan bemoaning that some minor detail that occurred in a comic over thirty years ago has been ignored by current writers.

...says the person debating comic book character motivations online. Pot, meet kettle. And isn't it a plot point a minor detail something that happened 20 years ago? Literally an exchange between Power Girl and The Huntress. What is that if not "a minor detail." If a writer is going to utilize very specific continuity then he and not the fan makes it a factor.



We know nothing about Dick's feelings for Helena. All we know is that she is deeply in love with him.

Or maybe she's in love with Power Girl. We'll see.


You need to read the issue a lot more carefully. She missed Power Girl because "With Dad gone, There was no one else I could talk to." She misses a confidante. Someone she could trust to tell her feelings concerning Dick to. She knows that while her dad might not have approved of her having feelings for Dick. She's still his daughter and would listen. Plus, he married someone who he used to be a criminal so he knows about unconventional relationships. Karen, meanwhile, is her best friend and would be understanding unlike others might possibly be.

Especially since she may be coming out.


More proof: She doesn't want anything to do with Dick particularly for him to touch her.

Um, that's more proof of what I'm saying.

And she tells Karen upon hearing that Dick told her that she was going to get engaged to Harry Sims, that "Dick doesn't know anything."

More proof for me.

From those two situations, it is clear that she doesn't want to have anything to do with Dick and he has no idea that she loves someone other than Harry Sims. If Helena is in love with Karen, why is she upset with Dick?

She's upset with everyone in case you didn't notice. The entire JSI.

Also, it seems to me that if she was in love with Karen, then "Uncle" Dick would be someone that she could talk to.

Not really. People rarely come out to family first.

And she does affirm Power Girl's assertion that she loves Dick. Where I come from after someone asks a question they think they know the answer to as Karen did, an answer of "And now don't you see?" is considered an affirmation.

Nope. It could still be Power Girl.

[Vic Vega]

And there's no proof Bruce Wayne didn't beat Selina Kyle but I'm pretty sure that didn't happen here either, because like PG we are meant to assume that this is just like E2 until we're shown different. Have you been shown different? No. So, until then, HE CHANGED HER DIAPERS!

It's a little too deliberately cutesy vague, so if it's not the case you are definitely meant to assume it is, the way Helena talks about how alone she was after PG's disappearance and how she just won't say what the reason is she was going to object to the proposal even though PG offers Dick as a reason. I'm not the only person who saw it that way and I'm more than bored with the "lipstick lesbian" trend in superhero comics, so I wasn't looking for it.

Apologies for the edit, Worst(didn't you used to be just Bad?:biggrin: ).

I read the scene as Huntress being in love with PeeGee also, but considering that: A) Johns is being way vaguer that he needs to be(paticularly considering the fanbase's seemingly bottomless appetite for lipstck lesbians) and B) Johns hasn't gone out of his way to note the stuff done with Obsidian's orientation over in the Manhunter book , Pinnacle might have a point here.

If there's ever been an openly gay character in a Geoff Johns book I don't know about it.

[celticguy]

...says the person debating comic book character motivations online. Pot, meet kettle. And isn't it a plot point a minor detail something that happened 20 years ago? Literally an exchange between Power Girl and The Huntress. What is that if not "a minor detail." If a writer is going to utilize very specific continuity then he and not the fan makes it a factor.



Or maybe she's in love with Power Girl. We'll see.



Especially since she may be coming out.




Um, that's more proof of what I'm saying.



More proof for me.



She's upset with everyone in case you didn't notice. The entire JSI.



Not really. People rarely come out to family first.



Nope. It could still be Power Girl.

the fact that the character's name is dick makes this so much more fun to read.

[WorstThingUS]

Apologies for the edit, Worst(didn't you used to be just Bad?:biggrin: ).

Heh. I actually was.


I read the scene as Huntress being in love with PeeGee also, but considering that: A) Johns is being way vaguer that he needs to be(paticularly considering the fanbase's seemingly bottomless appetite for lipstck lesbians) and B) Johns hasn't gone out of his way to note the stuff done with Obsidian's orientation over in the Manhunter book , Pinnacle might have a point here.

If there's ever been an openly gay character in a Geoff Johns book I don't know about it.

I think it's a very deliberate red herring. I'd be both surprised and disappointed if he went through with it. I think we've got enough hot lesbians for the fanboys in the DCU. Though I don't put it past DiDio to get some easy media coverage that way. "Batman's Daughter Is A Lesbian And You Won't Believe Who She's Dating. Here's A Hint: Up: She's Faster Than A Speeding Bullet. The Story at 11:00."

the fact that the character's name is dick makes this so much more fun to read.

Sigh. I've been so going out of my way trying not to write, "She doesn't like Dick."

[Vic Vega]

I think it's a very deliberate red herring. I'd be both surprised and disappointed if he went through with it. I think we've got enough hot lesbians for the fanboys in the DCU. Though I don't put it past DiDio to get some easy media coverage that way. "Batman's Daughter Is A Lessbian And You Won't Believe Who She's Dating. News at 11:00."

This is very damned if you do, damned if you don't territory.

I mean what's worse, Helena-2 turning out to be a lipstick lesbian or Dick 2 being in love with somebody he'd rightly regard as his baby sister(or cousin since he'd of been Nightwing's age or older when Bruce-2 and Selina-2 got hitched).

I'm reminded of that scene in the Brady Bunch movie 2 where Greg and Marsha realise they aren't related by blood and start making out on the spot.:biggrin:

Or is Woody Allen/Soon-Yi a closer parallel? :eek:

[WorstThingUS]

This is very damned if you do, damned if you don't territory.

I mean what's worse, Helena-2 turning out to be a lipstick lesbian or Dick 2 being in love with somebody he'd rightly regard as his baby sister(or cousin since he'd of been Nightwing's age or older when Bruce-2 and Selina-2 got hitched).


The latter obviously, since being a lesbian isn't a bad thing (except in terms of cliches), whereas your surrogate son schtupping his fifty years younger baby sister...ew.

[Vic Vega]

The latter obviously, since being a lesbian isn't a bad thing (except in terms of cliches), whereas your surrogate son schtupping his fifty years younger baby sister...ew.


It was a retorical question.:biggrin: I agree actually.

When you think about Dick-2's cronological age(physically he's far younger than his 75+ years) compared to Helena's (late twenties-early 30's) it makes it even worse.:eek:

[CBikle]

It was a rhetorical question.:biggrin: I agree actually.

When you think about Dick-2's chronological age(physically he's far younger than his 75+ years) compared to Helena's (late twenties-early 30's) it makes it even worse.:eek:

When the E2 Robin-Huntress relationship was originally introduced (early 80's) he was roughly, about twice her age. Now he'd be close to three times her age.

This is actually kind of an interesting continuity element. You have one character who operates under the "sliding scale" rule (ie: Huntress started about 10 years ago) and one character that has to operate under "real time" (Robin started in 1940 when he was about 8 years old).

If Earth 2 survives and this subplot survives, the age-gap will only continue to widen.