Batman: The Brave and the Bold

[LtMarvel]

Actually, this show did make me think...why don't they hijack some of the DC villians for the Warworld in the comics?

Major Force v. Black Adam?

[David Walton]

The Red Tornado and Son story was so-so.
Might have work better endingwise if this story line had been delvelop over a few episodes.

I thought it was one of the best episodes to date! It packed quite an emotional punch.

[kalorama]

,,,,,,,,,,monguls the poor mans darkseid - after thanos

Mongul doesn't have Omega beams. That's Darkseid.

[Mr. Croup]

That's Darkseid, not Mongul.

YES, I know that. Hell, all they would have had to do is change Mongul's color, and he would have been Darkseid.:evilangry: :evilangry:

[Salvester]

This show is awesome, I like how it shows a lot of the second string DC heros(or at least second string to the masses). And I lot it for that!

[Pól Rua]

The Red Tornado and Son story was so-so.
Might have work better endingwise if this story line had been delvelop over a few episodes.

The bit where Batman is almost gloating at Reddy to kill his son struck me as more than a little off. If Champion hadn't been a robot, that would have been SUPER creepy.

"Sorry, Aquaman, but Garth's started mouthing off. I know it's only the first time he's done it, but you're gonna hafta harpoon that guppie before he gets outta line."
"Ah, he's alright, Batman. Just a little youthful rebellion."
"Nope. Don't kid yourself. Harpoon to the head. It's the only way."

[Reptisaurus!]

The bit where Batman is almost gloating at Reddy to kill his son struck me as more than a little off. If Champion hadn't been a robot, that would have been SUPER creepy.

"Sorry, Aquaman, but Garth's started mouthing off. I know it's only the first time he's done it, but you're gonna hafta harpoon that guppie before he gets outta line."
"Ah, he's alright, Batman. Just a little youthful rebellion."
"Nope. Don't kid yourself. Harpoon to the head. It's the only way."

Both the Red Tornado episodes have been more'n a little disturbing.

[David Walton]

The bit where Batman is almost gloating at Reddy to kill his son struck me as more than a little off. If Champion hadn't been a robot, that would have been SUPER creepy.

"Sorry, Aquaman, but Garth's started mouthing off. I know it's only the first time he's done it, but you're gonna hafta harpoon that guppie before he gets outta line."
"Ah, he's alright, Batman. Just a little youthful rebellion."
"Nope. Don't kid yourself. Harpoon to the head. It's the only way."

I think that was kind of the point. Batman is well intentioned here, but he clearly doesn't view the Tornado Tyrant as having the same right to life as a human.

It was written by DeMatteis, who does great work with both philosophical questions like "what makes one human?" as well as working in ambiguous character moments. Batman isn't aware of his mistake, but he's clearly misguided here and the urgency with which he's willing to pull the plug is a factor in what sets Champion off and transforms him into the Tyrant. After all, Tyrant's reaction to Tornado's victory is not that of a defeated villain but a child who feels betrayed.

This ep had some of the best dialogue of the series so far. Loved Tornado's exchange with Champion about the nature of evil and how "human kindness is preferable to human cruelty" being "illogical" and yet "the only answer."

Also very cool was Tornado's remark, "Observation: you cannot mock love because it was love that created you."

[numberONE]

I just starting watching this show. It's really fun. Does anyone know how many episodes the first season is going to have? Wikipedia is listing 26, right now.

[kalorama]

I think Batman's reaction had less to do with thinking that Champion/Tyrant was less worthy of "life" because he was a robot than with Batman seeing what was coming down the pike, the way Batman always does. He just saw all the ways the whole thing could go wrong and knew that when it did, there would be only one thing for Reddy to do. And, on some level, I'm sure he knew (and was wary of) the toll doing it would take on his friend.

[David Walton]

I think Batman's reaction had less to do with thinking that Champion/Tyrant was less worthy of "life" because he was a robot than with Batman seeing what was coming down the pike, the way Batman always does. He just saw all the ways the whole thing could go wrong and knew that when it did, there would be only one thing for Reddy to do. And, on some level, I'm sure he knew (and was wary of) the toll doing it would take on his friend.

I do think Batman was very sympathetic toward Red Tornado.

But I'd have to say that it's not like he would consent to "pulling the plug" on the Joker because he sees trouble coming down the line. There's clearly a distinction on his part between artificial life and humans.

And you could argue that it was Batman's insistence that RT pull the plug that pushed Tornado Champion over the edge.

[kalorama]

But I'd have to say that it's not like he would consent to "pulling the plug" on the Joker because he sees trouble coming down the line. There's clearly a distinction on his part between artificial life and humans.

Which is a reasonable stance to take because, well, robots are machines not people. They're not actually alive. I don't see that thinking that way somehow makes Batman a bad guy. Most people would think the same way in a similar situation. The Champion/Tyrant was a malfunctioning machine that needed to be switched off.

Red Tornado is a different case because, at least in his comic book incarnation, his robot shell is actually inhabited by/bonded to a living entity. The Champion/Tyrant is all machine, as far as we know.


And you could argue that it was Batman's insistence that RT pull the plug that pushed Tornado Champion over the edge.

I don't see any basis for that at all. Batman was clearly wary from the beginning, but he didn't openly express a belief that he needed to be shut down until after the Tyrant started to flip out.

[David Walton]

Which is a reasonable stance to take because, well, robots are machines not people. They're not actually alive. I don't see that thinking that way somehow makes Batman a bad guy. Most people would think the same way in a similar situation. The Champion/Tyrant was a malfunctioning machine that needed to be switched off.

Well I think that's one of the many great things about this episode. There's certainly an argument to be made either way.

Personally I'd say that within the context of this fictional universe, Champion is a living, sentient being. Batman's position on Champion is understandable but flawed.


Red Tornado is a different case because, at least in his comic book incarnation, his robot shell is actually inhabited by/bonded to a living entity. The Champion/Tyrant is all machine, as far as we know.

Still, Champion clearly had emotions...which at the very least creates reasonable doubt.


I don't see any basis for that at all. Batman was clearly wary from the beginning, but he didn't openly express a belief that he needed to be shut down until after the Tyrant started to flip out.

Champion's flipout before they pulled the plug was significantly less dramatic than after. Before he wanted to take revenge on Major Disaster, which was of course wrong, but certainly more reasonable than when he wanted to wipe out all human life.

So I think perhaps he could have been reasoned with...but once they pulled the plug it sent him spiralling out of control. Champion still had a very strong connection with his father even to the end, so it seems reasonable to suggest that Tornado's betrayal drove him mad.

[kalorama]

Well I think that's one of the many great things about this episode. There's certainly an argument to be made either way.

Personally I'd say that within the context of this fictional universe, Champion is a living, sentient being. Batman's position on Champion is understandable but flawed.

Sentient? Yes. Living? By definition, no. He was a machine.


Still, Champion clearly had emotions...which at the very least creates reasonable doubt.

Animals are alive and have emotions. But if a rabid animal attacks and kills someone, there's no real handwringing about putting it down. It's simply what needs to be done.



Champion's flipout before they pulled the plug was significantly less dramatic than after. Before he wanted to take revenge on Major Disaster, which was of course wrong, but certainly more reasonable than when he wanted to wipe out all human life.

"More reasonable" doesn't mean that it actually was reasonable. Hemlock may be less poisonous than arsenic but, when all is said and done, they're both poison. Even before he went full Tyrant, Champion clearly had little regard for human life or safety, Given his level of power, Batman was pretty clearly justified in wanting him controlled/stopped.


So I think perhaps he could have been reasoned with...but once they pulled the plug it sent him spiralling out of control. Champion still had a very strong connection with his father even to the end, so it seems reasonable to suggest that Tornado's betrayal drove him mad.

To my reading, he crossed the line well before Tornado took any steps to shut him down. Tornado reacted to the danger, he didn't incite it.

[dupersuper]

Actually, this show did make me think...why don't they hijack some of the DC villians for the Warworld in the comics?

Major Force v. Black Adam?

I'm guessing because Imperiex destroyed Warworld, Brainiacs would-be replacement got vaporized at the big bang, and Mongul Jr's been too busy escaping Lobo, ambushing the Justice League, killing his sister and taking over the Sinestro Corps to get a new 1. Neat idea though...like Roullette but high-powered and cosmic.

[dupersuper]

Which is a reasonable stance to take because, well, robots are machines not people. They're not actually alive. I don't see that thinking that way somehow makes Batman a bad guy. Most people would think the same way in a similar situation. The Champion/Tyrant was a malfunctioning machine that needed to be switched off.

Red Tornado is a different case because, at least in his comic book incarnation, his robot shell is actually inhabited by/bonded to a living entity. The Champion/Tyrant is all machine, as far as we know.



I don't see any basis for that at all. Batman was clearly wary from the beginning, but he didn't openly express a belief that he needed to be shut down until after the Tyrant started to flip out.

If you buy the premise that artificial life is life, then it doesn't matter. The whole point of Red Tornado (air element entity from the comics that's never been used in this show notwithstanding) is the same as Data, Johnny 5, Pinocchio, KITT, Herbie, H.E.R.B.I.E, etc...1 very well illustrated in the Tomorrow Woman story in JLA 5; despite appearances, he's alive. Whether you believe A.I. is an actual scientific possibility or not doesn't matter in this context. In the story, it's an accepted truth. As for Bats actions pushing Tyrant faster and further down his nasty path, I agree feeling betrayed by his father when he tried to deactivate him didn't help matters at all.

[dupersuper]

Sentient? Yes. Living? By definition, no. He was a machine.


So are we, we're just biochemical machines rather than mineral. Not big on the whole "Cogito ergo sum" school of thought, I take it.

[kalorama]

If you buy the premise that artificial life is life, then it doesn't matter.

Batman clearly didn't buy that premise. And it is, at very best, highly debatable whether said premise has any merit. There is certainly no bedrock foundation by which the Tyrant's supposed sentience automatically granted him "life."

[kalorama]

Whether you believe A.I. is an actual scientific possibility or not doesn't matter in this context. In the story, it's an accepted truth.

The existence of A.I. is accepted truth. But it's also made quite clear by Batman's (and Red Tornado's) actions in this story, that the idea of A.I. inherently bestowing the status of "living being" on a machine (even a sentient one) is not an accepted truth.

[kalorama]

The whole point of Red Tornado (air element entity from the comics that's never been used in this show notwithstanding) is the same as Data, Johnny 5, Pinocchio, KITT, Herbie, H.E.R.B.I.E, etc...1 very well illustrated in the Tomorrow Woman story in JLA 5; despite appearances, he's alive.

First of all, we don't know that the air elemental isn't part of him in the show. In the comics it's been established that the air elemental has been part of him since he was first activated, so there's certainly a logical basis for assuming that it's part of him here, if he's the same character. But even if it's not, Red Tornado's status isn't the issue here, so comparing him to all of those other benign or benevolent "A.I.s" is off the mark. The valid comparison here is between Tornado Tyrant and Ultron.

The only reason the status of Tyrant's "life" is an issue is because of Batman's attempt to shut him down and the question of whether that equates to "killing," right? Well if you're going to take the position that Tyrant is alive and that Batman trying to deactivate him is the act of taking a life, then you have to apply the same argument to Hank Pym and the Avengers trying to obliterate Ultron to stop him from slaughtering innocent people. Yet I don't recall any "save Ultron" movements popping up in his defense. Utron's a machine bent of killing humans and he needed to be stopped to protect lives. Tyrant was no different.

[dupersuper]

First of all, we don't know that the air elemental isn't part of him in the show. In the comics it's been established that the air elemental has been part of him since he was first activated, so there's certainly a logical basis for assuming that it's part of him here, if he's the same character. But even if it's not, Red Tornado's status isn't the issue here, so comparing him to all of those other benign or benevolent "A.I.s" is off the mark. The valid comparison here is between Tornado Tyrant and Ultron.

The only reason the status of Tyrant's "life" is an issue is because of Batman's attempt to shut him down and the question of whether that equates to "killing," right? Well if you're going to take the position that Tyrant is alive and that Batman trying to deactivate him is the act of taking a life, then you have to apply the same argument to Hank Pym and the Avengers trying to obliterate Ultron to stop him from slaughtering innocent people. Yet I don't recall any "save Ultron" movements popping up in his defense. Utron's a machine bent of killing humans and he needed to be stopped to protect lives. Tyrant was no different.

1) Yes, no reason the show that just had Female Furies working for Mongul wouldn't be following DC cannon exactly...
2) I wouldn't mind seeing a save Ultron movement
3) I repeat, not a fan of Descartes, are we?

Androphobia is so sad. :smile:

[ponset]

Batman helping Kamandi depose of Grodd was an enjoyable episode.
We finally get to see the method of how Batman Time Travels.
Prof Carter Nichols. YAY!!!

[nuclearman]

What did all think of series one final ??

I enjoyed it as I am a Dr.Fate fan - equinox has been portrayed fairly cooly too.

[LtMarvel]

I don't think it has aired in the US, yet.

[Duy]

Does anyone know what the deal is with the episode order? Wiki lists the Omac episode as 23 and skips straight to the Equinox episode as 26. What happened to 24 and 25?

[nuclearman]

Does anyone know what the deal is with the episode order? Wiki lists the Omac episode as 23 and skips straight to the Equinox episode as 26. What happened to 24 and 25?

In Australia I saw the Equinox Episode last weekend and we have episode 25 scheduled for this weekend?? ... and I don't think we've seen episode 24 yet.

Episode 24: Inside the Outsiders!
Episode 25: Mayhem of the Music Meister!

[Surtur]

Ok well new episodes of this show have once again started to air. The first episode of the new season was excellent. It was basically a "Wacky Races" type episode. You have Batman, Joker, Guy Gardner, Green Arrow, Gentleman Ghost, etc. all racing, classic episode.

[LtMarvel]

Ok well new episodes of this show have once again started to air. The first episode of the new season was excellent. It was basically a "Wacky Races" type episode. You have Batman, Joker, Guy Gardner, Green Arrow, Gentleman Ghost, etc. all racing, classic episode.
Nah, the best part was the opener, with Captain Marvel and Batman taking out Blockbuster!

[Pól Rua]

Loved the very C.C.Beck style designs on both Billy and Cap.

[Surtur]

Nah, the best part was the opener, with Captain Marvel and Batman taking out Blockbuster!

Yeah it was good, I was bummed when I realized that heroes shown in the opening sequence usually won't be used in the rest of the cartoon.

[1505627]

Yeah it was good, I was bummed when I realized that heroes shown in the opening sequence usually won't be used in the rest of the cartoon.

dont worry. the intros are there to introduce heroes and villains for use in later episodes

[Jack]

Yeah it was good, I was bummed when I realized that heroes shown in the opening sequence usually won't be used in the rest of the cartoon.
I tend to prefer the mini stories to the rest of their episodes.

[LtMarvel]

No worries, the entire Marvel Family gets a rest of the cartoon sequence this season!