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4PointOh
07-23-2008, 04:18 PM
Kurt is AWESOME!:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=17358

CBR: Let’s begin our discussion of the Trinity in “Trinity” with Wonder Woman.

Kurt Busiek: I always viewed Wonder Woman as, at least potentially, DC’s Thor -- keeping in mind that she was around first, of course. But she's operating in the same kind of arena -- dealing with gods, in a big mythologically-oriented setting. I thought she could have the same dynamism and scope that Kirby's Thor did, but she rarely did. But she's got everything it would take to do that -- she's the best warrior on earth, she deals with gods and monsters as much as she deals with bank robbers and supervillains, the potential is all there.

I thought it was a terrible move, back when, to decide that Wonder Woman was suddenly a pacifist. She's peaceable, but not a pacifist -- it doesn't make sense to have a warrior Amazon who doesn't want to hit anything. That basically cripples the character; she's an Amazon. She's not supposed to be a pacifist.

She's bringing me a message of peace, but not through nonviolence. It’s peace through strength. It’s “You're going to be peaceful with us because we could kick your asses. And, for fun, we shoot bullets and arrows at our children and let them deflect them with their bracelets!” (laughs)

My view of Wonder Woman as a pacifist is that she doesn't want to hurt people, but she's going to get the job done, fast, skillful and as hard as necessary. Her particular challenge is to do whatever she does and do it better this time than the last time she did it. She's an athlete trying for a personal best every time, and is very competitive with herself. The object of the exercise isn't to have a winner and a loser; it's to use physical challenge to make herself better. So if she stops a bank robbery, she wants to do it faster and safer than she's ever done it before. The fact that there are guys with guns there is incidental. The person she's competing against is herself, not the bank robbers. They're the dumbbells and pole vault and such that she'll use in the course of proving herself.

Wonder Woman as a warrior is always ready to fight but not looking for a fight, but there's a difference between having the olive branch of peace always offered but being ready for war, and being a pacifist and whining about how rotten violence is. To her, violence is a tool -- a tool to bring about peace, and there's a nice little contradiction in there. That, at heart, is what I often saw as what was wrong with Wonder Woman interpretations in the past.

I was delighted, when I was handed “Trinity,” that Gail Simone was getting underway with her “Wonder Woman” run and had a lot of the same ideas. I’m sure she wouldn't express it quite the same way, and I’m sure there are ways we disagree, but she begins from the view that Wonder Woman is a badass, and I couldn't agree more.


Busiek: "Wonder Woman is a badass."

If there are nine million tanks coming at you over the hill, and Wonder Woman's standing there between you and the tanks, you can still feel safe because she's Wonder Woman, she can rip them to bits. That's much stronger than her choosing that moment to preach about nonviolence -- she's going to show the bad guys that violence isn't going to work for them, not try to reason it out with them on the battlefield.

There's certainly more to Wonder Woman than that, of course. Another thing that's gotten lost over the years is that she's supposed to be an ambassador of peace. She wants to change the world, to show us a better way -- and honestly, beating up Angle Man every month isn't showing us that way. She has all these strong conceptual underpinnings for being in this world that have often gotten lost over the years -- they get trotted out to explain why she's here in Man's World, and once that's done, the writers treat her as just another superhero who they can play identity games with and build a stable of supervillains for and figure out if she wants to marry Steve Trevor. Basically everything Superman does, but as a woman. The idea that she was here to show us that there's a better way to live than our warlike society got kicked to the wayside -- and since that's her reason for being here, you'd think it would come up.

That's something George Perez got, and Greg Rucka got, and Gail gets -- but for much of Wonder Woman's history, it's been an afterthought when it came up at all.

How interesting is it to be exploring these heretofore fairly unexplored aspects to the character?

It’s probably more interesting for Gail, since she gets the “Wonder Woman” stage. I get to do Wonder Woman as part of the trinity -- which means that I don't get to concentrate solely on who she is as a character, I have to address it in terms of what her relationship is to the other characters and where her place in things is. Not that that's a complaint -- it's the concept of the series. But I don't have a solo spotlight on Wonder Woman, my focus is on the Trinity as a group.

Also, I don’t have a completely free hand because I need to stay consistent with other portrayals -- I work with what other people establish. If whoever was writing "Wonder Woman" monthly was writing her as being a complete and utter pacifist, well, I might not like it, but that's the character I'd need to write. Another reason I'm glad Gail's on her solo book. So I’m working with my ideas, and they're resonating well with what Gail's doing -- but I’m also working with Wonder Woman’s part in the Trinity and the Trinity’s place in the DCU. My question to answer isn't simply "Who is Wonder Woman," but “Who is Wonder Woman, in this particular context?”

Wonder Watcher
07-23-2008, 04:41 PM
Kurt is AWESOME!:

Indeed, some great observations there.

It'll be interesting to see how Kurt plays with his ideas in Trinity.

I particularly agree with the view that she's constantly self challenging and striving to improve every time she goes into conflict.

You can imagine despot of the week pushing her along past the point she decides to take action and then not even having time to finish his soliloquy before she's wrapped up both him and the army he rode in on.

Lester C.
07-23-2008, 04:56 PM
I'm sure Kurt Busiek would pay very good money to be "on" Wonder Woman.:wink:

Chiroptera
07-23-2008, 05:48 PM
Wow. He just summed up exactly how I've always viewed Wonder Woman. He even felt like she was missing the same things I thought she was for a while!
I've loved Gail's take on her but darn if this doesn't make me wish I could see atleast a short series about Diana written by Busiek, I'd love to see him be able to write a story focused on her without having to keep it in context to the story regarding Supes and Bats.

That said, I'm very glad Gail's on WW at the moment; like he said, if she wasn't writing Wondy right now he might not be able to show us the Wonder Woman that he is showing in Trinity.

BnL
07-23-2008, 07:25 PM
I agree with a lot of that, but not all of it. Mainly, the lack of focus given to her compassion, and her desire to improve others. I don't think that the guys with guns robbing the bank are just incidental to her. She wants to help them, too. She wants to rehabilitate them and help them reach their potential. It's a tricky balancing act, because I think most writers go too far into one of two directions; turning her into either the "aggressive warrior" or the "wimpy pacifist," neither of which is accurate. I'm not saying that Busiek is falling into this trap, because I'm liking his portrayal of Diana in Trinity so far, but it is a trap that most people who write Wonder Woman seem to fall into. I think Gail's take is pretty ideal.

4PointOh
07-23-2008, 07:34 PM
I agree with a lot of that, but not all of it. Mainly, the lack of focus given to her compassion, and her desire to improve others. I don't think that the guys with guns robbing the bank are just incidental to her. She wants to help them, too. She wants to rehabilitate them and help them reach their potential. It's a tricky balancing act, because I think most writers go too far into one of two directions; turning her into either the "aggressive warrior" or the "wimpy pacifist," neither of which is accurate. I'm not saying that Busiek is falling into this trap, because I'm liking his portrayal of Diana in Trinity so far, but it is a trap that most people who write Wonder Woman seem to fall into. I think Gail's take is pretty ideal.

So was Greg's. And George's.

BnL
07-23-2008, 07:41 PM
So was Greg's. And George's.

Yep. And, though less memorable than those guys, I even liked a lot of Messner-Loebs' material. That outer space epic in particular remains one of my favorite Wonder Woman story arcs ever.

Pink Bat Maxine
07-23-2008, 08:53 PM
I agree with a lot of that, but not all of it. Mainly, the lack of focus given to her compassion, and her desire to improve others. I don't think that the guys with guns robbing the bank are just incidental to her. She wants to help them, too. She wants to rehabilitate them and help them reach their potential. It's a tricky balancing act, because I think most writers go too far into one of two directions; turning her into either the "aggressive warrior" or the "wimpy pacifist," neither of which is accurate. I'm not saying that Busiek is falling into this trap, because I'm liking his portrayal of Diana in Trinity so far, but it is a trap that most people who write Wonder Woman seem to fall into. I think Gail's take is pretty ideal.

I wholeheartedly agree with this post. In the early days, the Amazons had Reformation Island, where perhaps her biggest adversary.... Baroness Von Gunther.... eventually became an ally. She didn't just kick ass and defeat bad guys.... she subdued them to aid in their own betterment (A central theme of William Moulton Marston's.)

The Ray
07-24-2008, 02:01 AM
I agree with some points. I disagree with others. Wonder Woman wants peace. She'll get it thorough non-violent methods if she can, but if not she'll leave you in traction for the next six months re-learning how to eat things and use the bathroom again, visiting you on occasion just to see how you're doing and if you're getting along and no, she's not sorry, you shouldn't have came at her with that shotgun, but it's okay because you know that you're not going to take a school bus hostage again are you?

That's how I see Wonder Woman.

General Grievous
07-24-2008, 02:13 AM
She is badass, but boring.

Steward Ace
07-24-2008, 02:59 AM
She is badass, but boring.

I'd disagree. I think the concept as exemplified by Perez, Rucka and Simone
(I assume- I haven't read her work on the book, I'm sorry to say) is excellent with lots of room for interesting stories, but some writers fail to bring out anything beyond the surface of the character.

But so many folks haven't read enough of the character to get the good stuff beyond "secretary of the Justice League". :frown:

Johnny_Luck
07-24-2008, 03:48 AM
She has a fanbase that really really like her when shes written one way, and if shes changed to adapt to ways newer fans or fans who really don't like the way the character was written the past the writers are crucified by those older fans until what makes it interesting to the newer fans goes away and you get back to just the certain group.

For instance I really think Gail is a brilliant writer, but a lot of the mid action dialog that delves into the greek stuff just really never worked for me, it seems forced, out of place and just not needed. Drying her sense of humor up to fit a more stone like warrior I think is a mistake as well.

I honestly think the first 7 or so issues with the way she was written and acted with the others in this book made me a fan of the character, but then going back to the old thought of what she should be has really turned me off.

However like I said a lot of the older WW are really happy again now thats shes written this way, so I guess the titles just not going to be for me.

Just like the first 16 issues of supergirl were the only issues where I really ever enjoyed the character because they didn't try the mistakes of the past that dragged her down and made her took clone like of superman(also whicxh lead to multiple cancellations, and with her getting all this stuff back and it being less and less about her and more about her cousin and his connections I decided to drop it.)

4PointOh
07-24-2008, 06:13 AM
What I agreed with most regarding what Kurt Busiek said was the idea that Diana was analgous to Marvel's Thor.

Imagine if the WONDER WOMAN relaunch went as exquisitely as the THOR relaunch. The former seemed rushed (even though it was ridiculously late), simplistic and unthoughtful; the latter impeccably written and drawn.

The WONDER WOMAN relaunch seemed to despise everything about Wonder Woman: her roots, her mythology, her mission--while the THOR relaunch seemed to celebrate and focus upon everything that makes Thor great: his roots, his mythology, his power, his royalty.

I wish we had a do-over.

Pink Bat Maxine
07-24-2008, 07:16 AM
She has a fanbase that really really like her when shes written one way, and if shes changed to adapt to ways newer fans or fans who really don't like the way the character was written the past the writers are crucified by those older fans until what makes it interesting to the newer fans goes away and you get back to just the certain group.

That's pretty much comics in general. :wink:

Mr.EZ
07-24-2008, 07:28 AM
I'd take Wonder Woman more seriously if she had a different uniform.

Wonder Watcher
07-24-2008, 08:45 AM
I agree with a lot of that, but not all of it. Mainly, the lack of focus given to her compassion, and her desire to improve others. I don't think that the guys with guns robbing the bank are just incidental to her. She wants to help them, too. She wants to rehabilitate them and help them reach their potential. It's a tricky balancing act, because I think most writers go too far into one of two directions; turning her into either the "aggressive warrior" or the "wimpy pacifist," neither of which is accurate. I'm not saying that Busiek is falling into this trap, because I'm liking his portrayal of Diana in Trinity so far, but it is a trap that most people who write Wonder Woman seem to fall into. I think Gail's take is pretty ideal.You've definitely got a point, it's going to be interesting to see if he can strike the balance as there is a risk she might tip over too far into warrior mode.

I think this is the inherent risk in pushing Diana firmly into the apex warrior role for anyone who is writing her.

So far, although we've yet to see a situation that merits compassion, I think Kurt's doing a good job.

the4thpip
07-24-2008, 08:51 AM
I'd take Wonder Woman more seriously if she had a different uniform.

Culottes?

:smile:

Mr.EZ
07-24-2008, 10:07 AM
Culottes?

:smile:

Pants would be nice. Maybe some symmetry with the coloring, and no stars except the one on her tiara.

Something more like this maybe. Emphasis the red in her outfit and the silver from her bracelets.

http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/1917/wwaj8.jpg

4PointOh
07-24-2008, 10:22 AM
http://www.comicartfans.com/Images/Category_23394/subcat_41182/WW-%20Cheet%20small.jpg

Black Atom
07-24-2008, 10:37 AM
I agree with a lot of that, but not all of it. Mainly, the lack of focus given to her compassion, and her desire to improve others. I don't think that the guys with guns robbing the bank are just incidental to her. She wants to help them, too. She wants to rehabilitate them and help them reach their potential. It's a tricky balancing act, because I think most writers go too far into one of two directions; turning her into either the "aggressive warrior" or the "wimpy pacifist," neither of which is accurate. I'm not saying that Busiek is falling into this trap, because I'm liking his portrayal of Diana in Trinity so far, but it is a trap that most people who write Wonder Woman seem to fall into. I think Gail's take is pretty ideal.

I agree! I think the problem with describing Wonder Woman as a person who's willing to fight or use force to bring peace is that that describes EVERY superhero. Every superhero solves problems by punching people out and it's hardly something unique to Diana. As you said, it seems writers tend to try to make her stand out by pushing her one way or the other--either she uses MORE force than other heroes (i.e. killing) or she's a staunch pacifist.

I'm personally really partial to the reformation/loving submission aspects that played a big role in the early days of the character (The Ray and Pink Bat Maxine summed it up perfectly!) Clark, Bruce and other heroes rarely actually try to rehabilitate heroes, so re-emphasizing that aspect of WW would make her unique.