Uncanny X-Men #500 Review and Spoilers

[Karli]

Not bad, not good. Too early to tell really. All depends on where they're heading with this. At least Magneto wasn't just attacking out of 'evileness'.

It does seem though that Brubaker thinks that the key to writing Magneto dialogue is having him call Scott 'boy'.

A lot.

LOLZ
Your signature made me choke on iced coffee. Is that an Onion headline?

[Novaya Havoc]

But Marvel could at least have some X-Men (Gawd knows there are enough of them left) dedicated to trying to reverse M-Day. They could at least deal with the topic intermittently in the multiple X-Titles that come out every month.

Cable isn't even really dealing with it. He's just locked in this never ending battle with Bishop.

That was X-Factor. And even their MO shifted.

[KiplingKat]

True dat. But the Outback years took place in the 80's, when Marvel's editorial decisions weren't totally driven by strategic marketing tactics that they're blatantly employing now.

Truer words were never spoken.

It's a different business world. I'm just hypothesizing here, but the way the Marvel books seem to be driven, and observing the editorial content of the different books, a lot of emphasis is being put on concepts like patriotism, anti-war commentary, political satire and mainstream cultural observations.

Agreed, there is definitely more interaction with current events and pop culture now than there ever has been in Marvel Comics and it does seem to following a "Daily Show" theme.

And I'm fine with that.:wink:

But it is kind of sad in a factionalist world we live in has infected the M.U. to such an extent that even the X-Men are marginalized.

[$5 Milkshake]

Not to derail the thread with a positive, but I loved Colossus in this issue. I loved the fastball special moment, and I LOL'd at how he followed up throwing Logan with finding something else to throw at the Sentinel.

I hope every issue has Colossus just throwing random crap at everybody.

[tunasammiches]

Truer words were never spoken.



Agreed, there is definitely more interaction with current events and pop culture now than there ever has been in Marvel Comics and it does seem to following a "Daily Show" theme.

And I'm fine with that.:wink:

But it is kind of sad in a factionalist world we live in has infected the M.U. to such an extent that even the X-Men are marginalized.

I work for a company that does a lot of market research and reacts strategically because they are driven by consumer reports. I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel had similar market research tactics. Usually any company that deals with the consumer market does. Basically Marvel's following the trends.

Everything is financially motivated now. Even the best non-profit companies need funding to even exist. Heck the U.N. is the largest non-profit group around. Church and religious organizations too. That IS sad, isn't it?

[KiplingKat]

I work for a company that does a lot of market research and reacts strategically because they are driven by consumer reports. I wouldn't be surprised if Marvel had similar market research tactics. Usually any company that deals with the consumer market does. Basically Marvel's following the trends.

For certain things, that works. But I think given the distinct drop in quality of stories being put out, it's not working for Marvel. The primary concern should be writing good stories first...then marketing second.

No offense to your line of work, just sayin'. :smile:

Everything is financially motivated now. Even the best non-profit companies need funding to even exist. Heck the U.N. is the largest non-profit group around. Church and religious organizations too. That IS sad, isn't it?

To me to is one of the most depressing facts of modern life, because it poisons so much. The reason we did not continue to switch over to non-fossil fuels based technologies since the 1970's and are now facing a fuel crisis that the government is reacting with all the speed of a drunk turtle? Money.

I'm a capitalist, it is the most socially permeable economic system. But everything in life needs to be taken in moderation, including profit and materialism.

[tunasammiches]

For certain things, that works. But I think given the distinct drop in quality of stories being put out, it's not working for Marvel. The primary concern should be writing good stories first...then marketing second.

No offense to your line of work, just sayin'. :smile:



To me to is one of the most depressing fact of modern life, because it poisons so much. The reason we did not continue to switch over to non-fossil fuels based technologies since the 1970's and are now facing a fuel crisis that the government is reacting with all the speed of a drunk turtle? Money.

I don't disagree with you. I WISH things weren't the way they are (for the sake of the environment and to preserve the dignity of genuine art) and my profession kinda kills my soul. But it pays the bills. Not to mention, comic books are just as much a vehicle for retail partnerships as anything. Anytime Monet or Emma even mentions Versace or Prada, in a way that's blatant product placement. Which fashion designer was it that designed Storm's wedding dress? Was it Vera Wang? I forget. Regardless, it got some huge press. Media coverage = advertising. That's retail partnership tactics.

[jarrod]

I don't disagree with you. I WISH things weren't the way they are and my profession kinda kills my soul. But it pays the bills. Not to mention, comic books are just as much a vehicle for retail partnerships as anything. Anytime Monet or Emma even mentions Versace or Prada, that's blatant product placement. Who was it that designed Storm's wedding dress? Was it Vera Wang? That's retail partnership tactics.
I've noticed Millar does it all the time too (Dior, Nobu, etc). I like it honestly, in a way it helps personalize the characters in a weird way I think.

[We R. Venom]

There were a few things I didn't like abotu this issue. "Suck it," being the first. Land's art being the second. And the pacing as the third. the only thing that saved it for me was Dodson's art and the things to come.

And I really hope, "Magneto Tactics," means everyone destract Magneto until Sam gets here.

[KiplingKat]

I don't disagree with you. I WISH things weren't the way they are and my profession kinda kills my soul. But it pays the bills. Not to mention, comic books are just as much a vehicle for retail partnerships as anything. Anytime Monet or Emma even mentions Versace or Prada, that's blatant product placement. Who was it that designed Storm's wedding dress? Was it Vera Wang? That's retail partnership tactics.

*chuckle*, My sister is a Physicist who "rents her soul to the military industrial complex".

Just makes sure the rent you are paid is good and try to do the best you can outside of your job. :wink: I actually have a friend who is a lawyer who switched from corporate law (which was killing his soul) to a small family practice that also dealt with a lot of local non-profit groups, just becuase he could live with what he was doing.

Well, as I belatedly added to my last post, I do think Capitalism is a good system. It's the most socially permeable economic system.

However, everything in moderation, including money and materialism. America's Calvanist work ethics have gotten twisted in the extreme, and because of lobbyists, many industries operate with practically no restraint.

Capitalism good. Laissez-faire capitalism bad.

But yeah, I've noticed the product placement rampant in comics as well. Wonder how much they get for them?

Though didn't a fashion designer design MJ's wedding dress back in the 1980s? But I think that was more of a stunt rather than an advertising technique.

[Pro]

Really. Stop crying about Magneto.

Thanks for reminding me to clean my pots and kettles.

[tunasammiches]

I've noticed Millar does it all the time too (Dior, Nobu, etc). I like it honestly, in a way it helps personalize the characters in a weird way I think.

Yeah I don't mind it. Or am desensitized to it. I won't deny that it's not necessarily bad, because it IS relevant. The characterization through dialog that writers like Whedon, Bendis, David and Brubaker employ make the characters very of-the-now. Which is both good and understandable. I think as far as dialog writing goes, its more accessible to readers today. Chris Claremont writes like he's talking to himself, where the other writers (listed above) write more conversational-style. It makes the characters relatable. But it also —advertantly or inadvertantly— positions them all as PR tools.

[tunasammiches]

I'm trying not to be jaded and I'm sure the writers and artists do what they do mainly for creative reasons, but with large companies like Marvel, there's so many levels and layers for motivation.

[KiplingKat]

Yeah I don't mind it. Or am desensitized to it. I won't deny that it's not necessarily bad, because it IS relevant. The characterization through dialog that writers like Whedon, Bendis, David and Brubaker employ make the characters very of-the-now. Which is both good and understandable. I think as far as dialog writing goes, its more accessible to readers today. Chris Claremont writes like he's talking to himself, where the other writers (listed above) write more conversational-style. It makes the characters relatable. But it also —advertantly or inadvertantly— positions them all as PR tools.

CC is simply of an older school of comic book writing. The few times he has tried to "update his dialog", it has come off forced and awkward sounding. It's actually better for him to write in the prosaic style he does.

I agree that for the Millar, Bendis, Whedon and that crowd it works well and does make the characters, and therefore the stories, more accessible.

The problem comes when Marketing influences editorial into making creative decisions that dictate to the writers. The most prominent example is almost nonstop major crossovers that we have had for the last two years. We went from House of M, to Civil War, to WWH, to Messiah Complex, and now to Secret Invasion.

It's been almost nonstop, and it interferes with writers writing their own storylines in their own titles.

[Deus ex Chris]

CC is simply of an older school of comic book writing. The few times he has tried to "update his dialog", it has come off forced and awkward sounding.
Which just means they were almost all terrible at dialogue, but yeah, Claremont has company.

[We R. Venom]

And another thing. My shop only had Land and Ross covers. Anyone else get the others?

[tunasammiches]

And another thing. My shop only had Land and Ross covers. Anyone else get the others?

Yeah I want the X-Women cover! Where's it at??

[jarrod]

Yeah I don't mind it. Or am desensitized to it. I won't deny that it's not necessarily bad, because it IS relevant. The characterization through dialog that writers like Whedon, Bendis, David and Brubaker employ make the characters very of-the-now. Which is both good and understandable. I think as far as dialog writing goes, its more accessible to readers today. Chris Claremont writes like he's talking to himself, where the other writers (listed above) write more conversational-style. It makes the characters relatable. But it also —advertantly or inadvertantly— positions them all as PR tools.
I think the key is in striking a balance, making the character feel realistic and contemporary while still being true to the established character. Someone like Carey generally hits that note imo, his dialog almost never feels unnatural in either respect. C&C do pretty well too, none of them really have the dialog ticks that Whedon, Bendis, Claremont or Brubaker do.

[KiplingKat]

I think the key is in striking a balance, making the character feel realistic and contemporary while still being true to the established character.

That's a very good point.

I think that is one of the places BruFact failed in this issue.

[darknessatnoon]

And another thing. My shop only had Land and Ross covers. Anyone else get the others?

I got the Dodson. I am jacking up the price and intend to tempt Novaya with it.

[$5 Milkshake]

Why BruFact? Doesnt even make sense.

If nothing else, it should be BruFract.

[We R. Venom]

I got the Dodson. I am jacking up the price and intend to tempt Novaya with it.

Very nice. I'm sure I will see the others around some day. Overpriced.

[KiplingKat]

Yeah I want the X-Women cover! Where's it at??

I checked the Marvel website, they were all supposed to be out this week. Maybe your store just didn't order them? You can probably still request your LBCS to order one of the varient covers for you...

[Novaya Havoc]

Why BruFact? Doesnt even make sense.

If nothing else, it should be BruFract.

I prefer B-Frac. It makes them sound so street!

[KiplingKat]

Why BruFact? Doesnt even make sense.

If nothing else, it should be BruFract.

Whoops, my bad.

[Waterlily]

Not to derail the thread with a positive, but I loved Colossus in this issue. I loved the fastball special moment, and I LOL'd at how he followed up throwing Logan with finding something else to throw at the Sentinel.

I hope every issue has Colossus just throwing random crap at everybody.

I second this.

Why BruFact? Doesnt even make sense.

If nothing else, it should be BruFract.

True. Oh, and:

http://www.gapingvoid.com/martians123-thumb.jpg

[jarrod]

I like BruFrac... doesn't roll off the tongue quite as nice as RAFOTSE, but it'll do.

[tunasammiches]

I checked the Marvel website, they were all supposed to be out this week. Maybe your store just didn't order them? You can probably still request your LBCS to order one of the varient covers for you...

True. I'ma do that right now. What was that we were saying about being slaves to marketing ploys? Ah well, at least we ACKNOWLEDGE it these days...

[$5 Milkshake]

I agree!

BruFrac seems to be the way to go.

[pariah-1972]

I blame all the inconsistencies on Fraction.

[darknessatnoon]

Very nice. I'm sure I will see the others around some day. Overpriced.

There were two versions of it. Colored and uncolored. I got the colored version. Uncolored is always too tempting for me to color in myself.

[Novaya Havoc]

Yeah I want the X-Women cover! Where's it at??

It's lost to the sands. Graham Crackers pulled it for me, but wanted $30! No me gusta. :(

Chicago Comics on Belmont/Clark only had the Ross/Land ones out. I assumed they pulled all the others. Asked to no avail.

C'est la vie. I now have my nappy Land cover. Pupil-less black onesie Dazzler is still > Ross cover with tiny Jazz-ercise Dazzler + JUBILEE.

I got the Dodson. I am jacking up the price and intend to tempt Novaya with it.

Rude. Simply rude. Now I shall NEVAR gift you the Sage Heroclix I have saved for you! :(

[tunasammiches]

I just called all my comic shops and only 1 had the Dodson cover. Guess how much it is: $29.99!!!! DOLLARS!!!! The clerk explained that for every 30 copies of UXM #500, there's packaged 1 Dodson cover.

This totally proves my point about using branding to determine editorial and sales directives.

I totally bought it. I'm so lame.

[KiplingKat]

True. I'ma do that right now. What was that we were saying about being slaves to marketing ploys? Ah well, at least we ACKNOWLEDGE it these days...

...As someone who got the Alex Ross cover in poster form...

Yeah. :smile:

[tunasammiches]

It's lost to the sands. Graham Crackers pulled it for me, but wanted $30! No me gusta. :(

Chicago Comics on Belmont/Clark only had the Ross/Land ones out. I assumed they pulled all the others. Asked to no avail.

C'est la vie. I now have my nappy Land cover. Pupil-less black onesie Dazzler is still > Ross cover with tiny Jazz-ercise Dazzler + JUBILEE.



Rude. Simply rude. Now I shall NEVAR gift you the Sage Heroclix I have saved for you! :(

Good for you Novaya. Stand up to the man. I, on the other hand, seem to have no problems bending over for him. I just shelled out the moolah.

On the other hand, I now have something you don't have and therefore proclaim myself as the TRUE DAZZLER fan! *evil laugh*

[darknessatnoon]

Rude. Simply rude. Now I shall NEVAR gift you the Sage Heroclix I have saved for you! :(

lol

is THIS it?

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/sage-1.jpg

[tunasammiches]

...As someone who got the Alex Ross cover in poster form...

Yeah. :smile:

Forget what they say about misery, apparently SHAME loves company too. :)

[KiplingKat]

I just called all my comic shops and only 1 had the Dodson cover. Guess how much it is: $29.99!!!! DOLLARS!!!! The clerk explained that for every 30 copies of UXM #500, there's packaged 1 Dodson cover.

This totally proves my point about using branding to determine editorial and sales directives.

I totally bought it. I'm so lame.

Day-um!

Not lame, just a big fan. :wink:

My store tried to do that with the Nick Fury variants of Secret Invasion, but no one bought it, so they dropped the price by half the following week.

[Kid Icarus]

That was fun
Magneto seemed a little too Xornish though
maybe sublime has him kicked againn
I hope Anole punches Cyclops in the face
He made him all depressed and stuff
and the X-men weren't actually canceled
Pixie had a friend
but I didnt know who it was
and Angel was Archangel
but just for a wee bit

yeah
it was fun

[Novaya Havoc]

I just called all my comic shops and only 1 had the Dodson cover. Guess how much it is: $29.99!!!! DOLLARS!!!! The clerk explained that for every 30 copies of UXM #500, there's packaged 1 Dodson cover.

This totally proves my point about using branding to determine editorial and sales directions.

I totally bought it. I'm so lame.

Heh! Was it Graham Crackers?

I can't believe you paid $30 for it. I just printed the Dodson cover on the work color laser printer and GLUED it over the Land cover!

... Okay, no, but I srsly thought about it.

[Novaya Havoc]

On the other hand, I now have something you don't have and therefore proclaim myself as the TRUE DAZZLER fan! *evil laugh*

Plz. Bitches don't know 'bout my fandom.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/pics/lizday_8.jpg

[tunasammiches]

Heh! Was it Graham Crackers?

No it was Atlas Comics in the burbs.

I can't believe you paid $30 for it. I just printed the Dodson cover on the work color laser printer and GLUED it over the Land cover!

... Okay, no, but I srsly thought about it.

You are so ghetto.

[Novaya Havoc]

lol

is THIS it?

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/sage-1.jpg

Why, yes! Yes it is!

[$5 Milkshake]

Plz. Bitches don't know 'bout my fandom.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/pics/lizday_8.jpg

Wait....

You like Dazzler?!?

[Pixie_Solanas]

Plz. Bitches don't know 'bout my fandom.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/pics/lizday_8.jpg

I have a serious hankering for WHEY now. Thanks!

[xgeek52]

uncanny #500 was/is nothing special...

it's a nice lauching point for this new era but the book was pedestrian at best...

it wasn't a bad book... just an ordinary book...

[Bamf25]

uncanny #500 was/is nothing special...

it's a nice lauching point for this new era but the book was pedestrian at best...

it wasn't a bad book... just an ordinary book...


I think you summed up my feelings 100%.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Why BruFact? Doesnt even make sense.

If nothing else, it should be BruFract.

I like BRUCTION, myself.

Anyway, SDCC X panel and Fraction says we'll have Kitty Pryde in the story in #504. Whether she's alive or just being talked about in the "dead" tense, it's all up in the air.

[claimtosubclaim]

I'm gonna go with Fractbaker. Not as good as X-Force's Chrig Yyle/Crais Kyst.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Where are there faces? They look like they have some kind of Cher's The Mask thing going on. Weird.

Pixie on the back cover (the Land redo - shoulda kept the porn open-mouth) looks like Eric Stolz from Mask with a pink wig.

[Pixie_Solanas]

I'm gonna go with Fractbaker.

Bruction, closer to SUCTION, which is what this book is producing in spades right now. Yes, I took all day to think that one up. Me tired.

[claimtosubclaim]

Fractbaker, like 'frack'.

urban dictionary: "frack up" 1. To make a mistake; bungle something.

Which is exactly what they "Baked" with this issue.

[jarrod]

Bruction, closer to SUCTION, which is what this book is producing in spades right now. Yes, I took all day to think that one up. Me tired.
Holishit, as if you hadn't won the thread already!


May I "fluff" you?

[Anna]

Seeing that I didn't follow "the Eternals" or The HE's most recent activities, would someone catch me up on what was going on between HE the Dreaming Celestial, and the guy who was dreaming about Blob?

[Ogre U AHole]

Welp, I picked it up, dry heaved, and put it back. Srsly, how did this Land guy trick people into thinking he has talent? Sheit man, that panel of Emma angry towards the beginning... he can't even trace well. Beast was ugly as sin. I can't believe some people were dissing Bianchi when this is the alternative. Gross.

Astonishing roster overload. The split cast idea worked in X-Men because they have so many characters. Seeing the same 3 or 4 over and over and over... lame. Looks like Angel got some panel time though for those that like him.

Dodsons stuff was nice. Wish there was more of it.

Can't really join in on the discussion of the writing side as I really couldn't stand to read it but I find the discontent with Team Bruction (TM) funny. Bru's X-Men were kind of lifeless and while I enjoyed Fraction on The Order, his Invincible Iron Man is... much more likely to say "suck it!" than the Tony I've been reading for the last 3 years. Shoulda stuck with Iron Fist, guys.

[Monty_Cristo]

She's a S.H.I.E.L.D. agent, I don't think they graduate functional illiterates from the S.H.I.E.L.D. training program. :wink:

http://i178.photobucket.com/albums/w255/bobafett006/antman1.jpg

[jmc247]

Magneto. Boy he swallowed a whole bunch of crazy between his pretty rational style in X-Men Legacy just a bit ago.

Claremont gave Magneto an out for his crazy behavior with the whole power overloading his brain and causing a chemical imbalance notion. Uncanny 500 throws that idea under the bus and seems to come down on the notion that Magneto is naturally/genetically crazy.

I didn't hate this issue, but there were some problematic issues like Magneto torturing Colossus.

[Deus ex Chris]

Claremont gave Magneto an out for his crazy behavior with the whole power overloading his brain and causing a chemical imbalance notion. Uncanny 500 throws that idea under the bus and seems to come down on the notion that Magneto is naturally/genetically crazy.
Probably because that's an idiotic explanation that removes personal responsibility from the equation.

[$5 Milkshake]

He was acting like his silver age self ON PURPOSE. It was pretty clear he was acting out a part.

Stated for the 1,000,000,000th time. It's NOT Bru and Fraction reverting him back to old crazy Mags. You see him acting clearly different after the battle. Problem is, some of you went into this issue searching for crap, then only focused on that, ignoring what you wanted.

I feel bad for some of the people in this thread, who can't stomach modern comics. I'd like to think if one day I started hating everything I read, I would move on to another source of entertainment.

[pariah-1972]

Not to mention theres always an unwritten rule in comics that a persons power can never have negative side effects on that person.










Of course i'm sure someone will come up with an example i've forgotten.

[jmc247]

Probably because that's an idiotic explanation that removes personal responsibility from the equation.

Magneto during the Silver Age was often quite irrational and crazy. Claremont used the power madness notion to explain why he became rational and sane in the 1980s when he wasn't a few decades earlier.

[Deus ex Chris]

Magneto during the Silver Age was often quite irrational and crazy. Claremont used the power madness notion to explain why he became rational and sane in the 1980s when he wasn't a few decades earlier.
I don't need an explanation. I've read the stories. I know precisely what's going on. You robotic posters need to realize that someone disagreeing with you doesn't mean they aren't informed about the issue.

[jmc247]

I don't need an explanation. I've read the stories. I know precisely what's going on.

Then you would know that in order to explain Magneto's insanity and irrationality during the Silver Age Claremont was left with the idea that Magneto was naturally/genetically crazy and Moira messed with his DNA and tried to fix the problem or he was artifically insane because of his powers Moira tried to fix the problem.

There was no good way for him to rationalize Silver Age Magneto's Silver Age actions as a personal responsibility issue, because many of them where so insane and irrational.

you argue

that removes personal responsibility from the equation.


That would be true if he was portayed as sane an rational during the Silver Age which he often wasn't. Hell, there was a comic in the early 70s tited the Madness of Magneto. People aren't responsible for being insane.

Now some of his actions were rational and weren't insane. There is what makes the personal responsibility issue so problematic. The same issue/problem exists for Wanda and the rest of his family. How responsable is Wanda for what happened to the Avengers and M-Day given how messed up her mind was at the time? That is certainly a hard question.

[Siddon]

Plz. Bitches don't know 'bout my fandom.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b41/havoc1/pics/lizday_8.jpg

Sometimes its possible to share toooooo much. Anyways I always figured your apartment would be filled with ceramic cats, feather boas, and posters of David Beckham.

Just like how I figured DDM's place is filled with old action figures strategically placed in classic Claremont scenes.

[Deus ex Chris]

Then you would know that in order to explain Magneto's insanity and irrationality during the Silver Age Claremont was left with the idea that Magneto was naturally/genetically crazy and Moira messed with his DNA and tried to fix the problem or he was artifically insane because of his powers Moira tried to fix the problem.

There was no good way for him to rationalize Silver Age Magneto's Silver Age actions as a personal responsibility issue, because many of them where so insane and irrational.

you argue



That would be true if he was portayed as sane an rational during the Silver Age which he often wasn't. Hell, there was a comic in the early 70s tited the Madness of Magneto. People aren't responsible for being insane.

Now some of his actions were rational and weren't insane. There is what makes the personal responsibility issue so problematic.
The continuity issue doesn't bother me. I would've been fine with just ignoring his more insane moments and simply refocusing him for another era. That's why I'm fine with them ignoring the whole "powers make him insane" explanation. Again, don't assume I'm arguing from a place of ignorance.

[jmc247]

The continuity issue doesn't bother me. I would've been fine with just ignoring his more insane moments and simply refocusing him for another era. That's why I'm fine with them ignoring the whole "powers make him insane" explanation. Again, don't assume I'm arguing from a place of ignorance.

I don't assume you are arguing from a place of ignorance. You did not make clear you were ignoring his more insane moments, which were very common during the Silver Age and occured a couple times during the 1990s.

You were arguing for individual responsibility for Magneto's Silver Age actions without telling me you were ignoring his crazed and insane actions. That is like saying Wanda is responsable for her actions without saying you are ignoring her actions while insane.

[Red_Skull]

Am i the only one who really like this issue

[Deus ex Chris]

I don't assume you are arguing from a place of ignorance. You did not make clear you were ignoring his more insane moments, which were very common during the Silver Age and occured a couple times during the 1990s.
I never said I was ignoring them. I said I would've been fine with ignoring them. Even better, I would be fine with saying he was never insane, and that he was--gasp--completely responsible for his actions. Personal. Responsibility.

[jmc247]

I never said I was ignoring them. I said I would've been fine with ignoring them. Even better, I would be fine with saying he was never insane, and that he was--gasp--completely responsible for his actions. Personal. Responsibility.

That is all fine and good except as you know he was written as insane just as Wanda and Polaris were written as insane, which clouds the issue of personal responsibility. To a certain extent they were very much responsable for their actions at the same time to a certain extent they weren't.

[Deus ex Chris]

That is all fine and good except as you know he was written as insane just as Wanda and Polaris were written as insane, which clouds the issue of personal responsibility. To a certain extent they were very much responsable for their actions at the same time to a certain extent they weren't.
His children are fun insane. It's just annoying with him. Anyway, this is getting circular and off topic, so I'm strutting right out of this conversation.

[jmc247]

His children are fun insane. It's just annoying with him. Anyway, this is getting circular and off topic, so I'm strutting right out of this conversation.

Good idea, the conversation is getting circular.

The biggest positive coming out of this issue for me was it was made double sized so the pacing wasn't as big as issue and it set up some interesting storyline possibilities. I am also interesting to know what Magneto is up to out in deep space.

[Waterlily]

He was acting like his silver age self ON PURPOSE. It was pretty clear he was acting out a part.

Stated for the 1,000,000,000th time. It's NOT Bru and Fraction reverting him back to old crazy Mags. You see him acting clearly different after the battle. Problem is, some of you went into this issue searching for crap, then only focused on that, ignoring what you wanted.

I feel bad for some of the people in this thread, who can't stomach modern comics. I'd like to think if one day I started hating everything I read, I would move on to another source of entertainment.

1,000,000,001 times. Repetition is the soul of this thread.

Am i the only one who really like this issue

You're not alone. Those who liked this issue stated so, and then, went on with their day.

[KiplingKat]

I'm just going to step in quiet on the insanity argument.

Claremont did not give Magneto the power induced bi-polar disorder to relieve him of responsibility for his actions. He did it to explain the wide variance of characterization down through the decades. Writers have very different takes on Magneto, and there had to be a away to account for that.

I mean honestly, imagine being a Wolverine fan and not knowing whether Logan is going to kicking ass or picking daisies from appearance to appearance.

That's what we as Magneto fans have to deal with. The variance is that wide.

If Magneto were schizophrenic and could not tell fantasy from reality, then he might be relieved of the responsibility of his actions. But being bi-polar, just not being able to control his emotions, that does not relieve anyone of responsibility for the choices they make. Especially when such an intelligent man has lived in these cycles for so long and refused to recognize a pattern. He refuses to even consider the notion when it is presented to him.

He is still very much responsible for his actions. The bi-polar disorder (which does not apply in this instance as he is depowered) just explains why.

[KiplingKat]

Problem is, some of you went into this issue searching for crap, then only focused on that, ignoring what you wanted.

I feel bad for some of the people in this thread, who can't stomach modern comics. I'd like to think if one day I started hating everything I read, I would move on to another source of entertainment.

And the rest of it?

The crappy pacing, poorly conceived plot, the horribly choreographed fight, lousy dialog...

I can read "modern comics" and enjoy them very much. I eagerly look forward to my X-Factor subscription every month. I really enjoyed Ellis' first issue of Astonishing. I like what Carey is doing in Legacy. I LOVE JMS' Thor (and you guys want to talk about changing the status quo?). I'm enjoying Secret Invasion. I'm also reading Fables, Wonder Woman, Birds of Prey, and The Red Star.

I've been reading the comics for 24 years. Change has nothing to do with it. "Modern comics" have nothing to do with it.

This was just a badly written story.

[$5 Milkshake]

And the rest of it?

The crappy pacing, poorly conceived plot, the horribly choreographed fight, lousy dialog...

I can read "modern comics" and enjoy them very much. I eagerly look forward to my X-Factor subscription every month. I really enjoyed Ellis' first issue of Astonishing. I like what Carey is doing in Legacy. I LOVE JMS' Thor (and you guys want to talk about changing the status quo?). I'm enjoying Secret Invasion. I'm also reading Fables, Wonder Woman, Birds of Prey, and The Red Star.

I've been reading the comics for 24 years. Change has nothing to do with it. "Modern comics" have nothing to do with it.

This was just a badly written story.

And that's fine. I wasn't referring to you actually, if I'm being honest I dont really remember noticing if you were crazy outside of this one thread or not :wink: And I'm certainly not saying you cant dislike the issue.

There are just some posters who's names you NEVER see until they pop up to complain about something, and then moan about the "good 'ol days" that we'll never get back.

[KiplingKat]

Well, I am crazy. :wink:

Just making sure you weren't trying to sweep all of the complaints under the same blanket. But I understand what you are saying and it's cool. :smile:

[Monty_Cristo]

I'm just going to step in quiet on the insanity argument.

Claremont did not give Magneto the power induced bi-polar disorder to relieve him of responsibility for his actions. He did it to explain the wide variance of characterization down through the decades. Writers have very different takes on Magneto, and there had to be a away to account for that.

I mean honestly, imagine being a Wolverine fan and not knowing whether Logan is going to kicking ass or picking daisies from appearance to appearance.

That's what we as Magneto fans have to deal with. The variance is that wide.

If Magneto were schizophrenic and could not tell fantasy from reality, then he might be relieved of the responsibility of his actions. But being bi-polar, just not being able to control his emotions, that does not relieve anyone of responsibility for the choices they make. Especially when such an intelligent man has lived in these cycles for so long and refused to recognize a pattern. He refuses to even consider the notion when it is presented to him.

He is still very much responsible for his actions. The bi-polar disorder (which does not apply in this instance as he is depowered) just explains why.

that, the trauma of being buried alive with the family members you watched get mowed down by gunfire, and having your wife run away from you screaming while your only daughter burns to death.

[KiplingKat]

that, the trauma of being buried alive with the family members you watched get mowed down by gunfire, and having your wife run away from you screaming while your only daughter burns to death.

Yes, that too. :smile:

[pariah-1972]

Am i the only one who really like this issue

It probably could have been a lot better especially for a 500th issue but i honestly didn't think it was all that bad.

[Bamf25]

Think the issue suffered from high expectations.

[hYPE]

Why is the High Evolutionary now interested in the mutants? He wasn't too concerned when Beast went to him.

Yeah, I'm curious about this as well.

[Cruelly_Innocent]

I Actually Loved the issue...well.of course..except Land's art..seven different Cyclops and Seven different Emma(s) weren't necessary

I Can't wait to see what's with all the fuss about Alison..I found her boring but I only know her from New Excalibur and someone here told me to forget that Dazzler

Also...last page of pixie...her legs were half the size of her torso..it seem like the upper part was going to colapse ...but it was a fun issue :cool:

[tetragene]

Well, it's not like Marvel themselves didn't build it up... what did Lowe call it again, "the biggest seismic change in X-Men history"? Is that what we've actually got here?

they constantly overhype everything though. NEX #1 was the "best script [Quesada] read in ages" and "Dazzler is going to be a major player in the next two years" or "Land is an incredibly talented artist in this field" or "HOM #3 will break the internet in half," etc, etc. I didn't go into this issue expecting groundbreaking wham-bam moments. I went into it expecting to see a shift in the X-Men's direction and a set-up for what's to come--because that's what all the lead-in interviews indicated it would be. That is what I got, so I'm not disappointed in the slightest.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Well, well. Bought the thing yesterday and gave it a second go this morning.

It was OK. Fun read and sets up the new status-quo. Nothing mindblowing, but then again, short of #100 (I'm guessing the Magneto army will say #200 too, eh), centennial issues weren't exactly OMG-awesome!!.

Gotta say, seeing Mags being petty and confrontational was rather funny. Not quite sure how it has anything to do Mags with him when we last saw him, but throwing a messiah complex-related (not the story) hissy fits is pretty much in character.

There were, of course, some gaps in logics. Mags using sentinels as a decoy is insane, but what really cracked me up was that he attack during the exhibit was supposed to be a distraction. Right. Cause the X-Men were *guarding* the Celestial, lol? Hell, all Mags had to was to wait for a Dazzler concert. Oh well.

Oh, and Pixie's fag hag was a howler. The CBR Gay Collective making an actual on-panel appearance. Surreal.

[steve2275]

Magneto is a has been.

thats what cyclops said:tongue: :wink:

[jarrod]

they constantly overhype everything though. NEX #1 was the "best script [Quesada] read in ages" and "Dazzler is going to be a major player in the next two years" or "Land is an incredibly talented artist in this field" or "HOM #3 will break the internet in half," etc, etc. I didn't go into this issue expecting groundbreaking wham-bam moments. I went into it expecting to see a shift in the X-Men's direction and a set-up for what's to come--because that's what all the lead-in interviews indicated it would be. That is what I got, so I'm not disappointed in the slightest.
Fair enough, I expected to be blown away. And given the significant centennial issue count, the mass hype coming from Marvel the supposed talent of the creators involved, I don't think that was an unreasonable expectation.

Instead, this issue was just passable, which is pretty disappointing in itself. I expect better of the flagship, I'm frankly tired of Uncanny being the weakest of the core books in the line. It just wasn't good enough, it should've been better.

[Saturius]

I think it might be time for Brubaker to leave. He just doesn't seem excited at all about writing for the X-men. I don't think he has any stories that he wants to tell about these characters like he does for Captain America etc. None of his stories have been "omg terrible," but...man. Lackluster is the only word I can come up with. It's too tepid. Uncanny is the flagship title for goodness sake. It needs to own that status again.

[frog]

Well, I'm afraid that I have to admit this issue was not what I had hoped for. The art aside, my dissatisfaction stems mostly from the dialogue rather than the plot or new direction.

The voices of many of the characters are just not ringing true. Beast's "awful little Canadian", Cyclops' "suck it" and Magneto's "heh" read more like the average post on a message board rather than the distinct personalities I'm familiar with. If this is Fraction's contribution I hope he remembers that these are seasoned characters with speaking mannerisms that are much more than being cool and current. This lack of grasp of individual voices jars me out of the moment much more than plot inconsistencies.

The pointed remarks as to how green the X-Men are going to be now became downright absurd. It felt as though a green conservancy group had paid the editors to spread their message. I don't have a problem with the X-Men being environmentally friendly, but to keep harping on that point - well, I think they have much bigger fish to fry than that now.

I read X-Men for love of the characters. If the long established personalities aren't conveyed correctly it spoils my enjoyment of the stories. Uncanny 500 has definitely failed in this respect. I'm glad that I'll be seeing my favorites in the other books, thankfully.

[nikbackm]

Well, I'm afraid that I have to admit this issue was not what I had hoped for. The art aside, my dissatisfaction stems mostly from the dialogue rather than the plot or new direction.

The voices of many of the characters are just not ringing true. Beast's "awful little Canadian", Cyclops' "suck it" and Magneto's "heh" read more like the average post on a message board rather than the distinct personalities I'm familiar with. If this is Fraction's contribution I hope he remembers that these are seasoned characters with speaking mannerisms that are much more than being cool and current. This lack of grasp of individual voices jars me out of the moment much more than plot inconsistencies.

The pointed remarks as to how green the X-Men are going to be now became downright absurd. It felt as though a green conservancy group had paid the editors to spread their message. I don't have a problem with the X-Men being environmentally friendly, but to keep harping on that point - well, I think they have much bigger fish to fry than that now.

I read X-Men for love of the characters. If the long established personalities aren't conveyed correctly it spoils my enjoyment of the stories. Uncanny 500 has definitely failed in this respect. I'm glad that I'll be seeing my favorites in the other books, thankfully.

Agree with all of the above except for X-Men going green. I took that as Brubaker/Fraction having a bit of fun with the current environment craze. If it continues in future issues it's another thing though.

[LawGiver]

Let Brubaker/Fraction do whatever they want with the title, it's been great having Brubaker on and now with Fraction added to the mix it can only get better. I want a 100 issue run with this team.

[Sentinel K]

This thread is pretty much played but i figure I may as well throw in my two pence.

I thought the Dodson's art was pretty nice but it jarred pretty badly with Land's horrendous 'smiley' traced 'art'.

The story was pretty bland, and for a milestone issue i expected something more than this. It probably would have been better if it had been the culmination of a story rather than the beginning but I guess the timing was out for that and #499 as #500 would have been worse probably.

However, I did quite like the subplot set-ups and being a massive fan of their Iron Fist work, I have no doubt that Frubaker will bring the noize in coming issues.

[pariah-1972]

Well, well. Bought the thing yesterday and gave it a second go this morning.

It was OK. Fun read and sets up the new status-quo. Nothing mindblowing, but then again, short of #100 (I'm guessing the Magneto army will say #200 too, eh), centennial issues weren't exactly OMG-awesome!!.

Gotta say, seeing Mags being petty and confrontational was rather funny. Not quite sure how it has anything to do Mags with him when we last saw him, but throwing a messiah complex-related (not the story) hissy fits is pretty much in character.

There were, of course, some gaps in logics. Mags using sentinels as a decoy is insane, but what really cracked me up was that he attack during the exhibit was supposed to be a distraction. Right. Cause the X-Men were *guarding* the Celestial, lol? Hell, all Mags had to was to wait for a Dazzler concert. Oh well.

Oh, and Pixie's fag hag was a howler. The CBR Gay Collective making an actual on-panel appearance. Surreal.The thing that was kind of weird was that noone was wondering how Magneto got his power back, but yet he was wondering out loud to himself how Magneto could possibly bring a pair of sentinels online and control them.

[Hi-Fi]

Let Brubaker/Fraction do whatever they want with the title, it's been great having Brubaker on and now with Fraction added to the mix it can only get better. I want a 100 issue run with this team.
LOL. Yeah, it's been GREAT having Brubaker on.

Hopefully, Fraction will bring good ideas to the book.

[frog]

LOL. Yeah, it's been GREAT having Brubaker on.

Hopefully, Fraction will bring good ideas to the book.

It might be best if Fraction became the idea guy and Brubaker wrote the dialogue.

[LawGiver]

It might be best if Fraction became the idea guy and Brubaker wrote the dialogue.

Clearly you are not reading Captain America. Brubaker is a great idea man.

[Hi-Fi]

It might be best if Fraction became the idea guy and Brubaker wrote the dialogue.
It might be best if Bru dedicates himself to his other fantastic books before UXM becomes a huge ugly spot on his otherwise amazing resumeé. I think Fraction can take care of the X-Men alone.

[Pach!]

I hope he stays on for a long time. I really like his Uncanny X-men.

[LawGiver]

It might be best if Bru dedicates himself to his other fantastic books before UXM becomes a huge ugly spot on his otherwise amazing resumeé. I think Fraction can take care of the X-Men alone.

But you just said his issues were great?

[Sentinel K]

Clearly you are not reading Captain America. Brubaker is a great idea man.

And on the other hand, Iron Fist was mostly Fraction...

So i guess they're about even.

Fraction has some mad ideas though, having read his bonkers Casanova

[Hi-Fi]

But you just said his issues were great?
LOL. I was being IRONIC. They've been okay. It's sad because I know he's an amazing talented writer and I know this book could be 1000 times better and it just isn't.

[Deus ex Chris]

I think they're both excellent, and they have incredible synergy. They just need stronger artists (Aja! Nord!) and the opportunity to work outside the expectation of a 500th issue--which they're getting. However, my opinion could be different in a few months.

[frog]

I'm not concerned with Brubaker's other books. I'm concerned with X-Men.

[pariah-1972]

I'm not concerned with Brubaker's other books. I'm concerned with X-Men.Bru is a great writer when he is allowed to stretch his wings.

I'm not sure if having Fraction around will help with that.

[LawGiver]

LOL. I was being IRONIC. They've been okay. It's sad because I know he's an amazing talented writer and I know this book could be 1000 times better and it just isn't.

Oh, ok. I thought you really liked his issues, I certainly saw nothing wrong with them at all, except maybe a few less "suck it's".

I think they're both excellent, and they have incredible synergy. They just need stronger artists (Aja! Nord!) and the opportunity to work outside the expectation of a 500th issue--which they're getting. However, my opinion could be different in a few months.

I agree, people were expecting some mind blowing anniversey type issue, regardless of the fact that this was also suppose to set up the new status quo. The Magneto crying was painful.

I'm not concerned with Brubaker's other books. I'm concerned with X-Men.

Which Ed Brubaker is writing. So my statement is still relevent.

[Sentinel K]

Bru is a great writer when he is allowed to stretch his wings.

I'm not sure if having Fraction around will help with that.

I think they have a pretty good synergy.

I think Fraction is more suited to the X-Men, personally, so together i think this could be something quite special.

[pariah-1972]

I think they have a pretty good synergy.

I think Fraction is more suited to the X-Men, personally, so together i think this could be something quite special.I haven't read Iron Fist yet or ever but i don't like his Iron Man issues .

[Hi-Fi]

I think they have a pretty good synergy.

I think Fraction is more suited to the X-Men, personally, so together i think this could be something quite special.
I believe that as well. I thin this following arc will be pretty great. I certainly hope so!

[Sentinel K]

I haven't read Iron Fist yet or ever but i don't like his Iron Man issues .

I'd highly recommend them.

They took a pretty dormant character and in 16 issues, 1 annual and a special, built an amazing foundation for other writers to build on whilst still moving forward with awesome stories. It's such a shame they chose not to continue to build it themselves

[pariah-1972]

I'd highly recommend them.

They took a pretty dormant character and in 16 issues, 1 annual and a special, built an amazing foundation for other writers to build on will still moving forward with awesome stories. It's such a shame they chose not to continue to build it themselvesSo if he is doing so damn well why did he choose to leave it for?

[darknessatnoon]

So if he is doing so damn well why did he choose to leave it for?

Cause he got a better job on X-Men. Jeez!

[frog]

LOL. I was being IRONIC. They've been okay. It's sad because I know he's an amazing talented writer and I know this book could be 1000 times better and it just isn't.

That's what I think. I'd prefer the book to be in the hands of someone that will put more effort into it rather than having a big name writer that is doing a half-ass job.

[LawGiver]

I believe that as well. I thin this following arc will be pretty great. I certainly hope so!

Agreed, Iron Fist was great, Captain America is great, Invincible Iron Man is a great new book, combining these two writers together can only mean good things. I only wish they had the artists, minus Sal, that they have on their other books for this book. Looking at Greg Land's art and then looking at Steve Epting/Mike Perkins is like staring at the toliet after you launch last nights dinner into it and then setting your eyes up upon Hiedi Klum.

[Sentinel K]

So if he is doing so damn well why did he choose to leave it for?

Brubaker wanted out, as did Aja.

Fraction didn't want to be the last one at the party. Plus he wanted to go out on a definite high.

[LawGiver]

That's what I think. I'd prefer the book to be in the hands of someone that will put more effort into it rather than having a big name writer that is doing a half-ass job.

How do you know he's doing a half-ass job? That seems like a asinine statement to me, just because you don't like the writers work on the title does not mean he is putting in half the effort. I hate statements like that.

[pariah-1972]

Cause he got a better job on X-Men. Jeez!So he left a book that was getting tons of acclaim and respect to be a shitty writer on Iron Man and Uncanny?


Way to fail upwards.

[LawGiver]

So he left a book that was getting tons of acclaim and respect to be a shitty writer on Iron Man and Uncanny?


Way to fail upwards.

Invincible Iron Man is getting tons of acclaim too.

[Sentinel K]

So he left a book that was getting tons of acclaim and respect to be a shitty writer on Iron Man and Uncanny?


Way to fail upwards.

Yeah, well, that's just like, you're opinion, man.

[frog]

How do you know he's doing a half-ass job? That seems like a asinine statement to me, just because you don't like the writers work on the title does not mean he is putting in half the effort. I hate statements like that.

My statement is based on my observations and I stand by it.

[Deus ex Chris]

My statement is based on my observations and I stand by it.
You can hardly observe how much effort he's putting into it. That's such a silly statement. I expect better from you.

[LawGiver]

My statement is based on my observations and I stand by it.

A lot of people observed the Earth was flat too.

[frog]

I can read with an eye for plot and characterizations and also gather evidence from interviews as well. It's not much different from observing an actor that's phoning in his or her performance.

[pariah-1972]

Cyclops just needs to get his ass kicked a couple of times by Either Beast or Wolverine and i will be happy.

[Deus ex Chris]

I can read with an eye for plot and characterizations and also gather evidence from interviews as well. It's not much different from observing an actor that's phoning in his or her performance.
I think it is different, and I think you're full of it. It's one thing to criticize the product, but you have no idea how much effort Brubaker has put into his X-Men work.

[pariah-1972]

I don't understand why the book needs two high profile writers to make this many screw ups....

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Cyclops just needs to get his ass kicked a couple of times by Either Beast or Wolverine and i will be happy.

I don't get it.

Why add the Beast and Wolvie bit...? :confused:

[jarrod]

How do you know he's doing a half-ass job? That seems like a asinine statement to me, just because you don't like the writers work on the title does not mean he is putting in half the effort. I hate statements like that.
I sincerely hope he's been half assing it. If what we've gotten the past two years on Uncanny is the best Bru can deliver, he should've been shown the door awhile back.

I'm kinda of at a loss as to what happened? I mean, Deadly Genesis was actually quite good...

[tetragene]

I don't get it.

Why add the Beast and Wolvie bit...? :confused:

they're lame and kicking Cyclops' butt would make them "cool" ? :confused:

[frog]

I think it is different, and I think you're full of it. It's one thing to criticize the product, but you have no idea how much effort Brubaker has put into his X-Men work.

I think that you have an agenda towards me because I've disagreed with you before, one that I'm not interested in pursuing.

[pariah-1972]

I don't get it.

Why add the Beast and Wolvie bit...? :confused:Cause i want to see Beast leading the team i guess and i love to see wolvie and scott butt heads.

and it would make a good contradiction since Scott is supposed to be wound so tight compared to Wolvies beast rages and Beasts animal appearance.

[Deus ex Chris]

I think that you have an agenda towards me because I've disagreed with you before, one that I'm not interested in pursuing.
Your paranoia is adorable, but I'm afraid you're giving yourself a little too much credit. It's nothing personal. I just have a history of commenting on absurd statements.

[frog]

Cause i want to see Beast leading the team i guess and i love to see wolvie and scott butt heads.

and it would make a good contradiction since Scott is supposed to be wound so tight compared to Wolvies beast rages and Beasts animal appearance.

Beast and Cyclops are buddies, plus I don't really think Beast wants to lead.

Wolverine, now, I expect the conflict to keep escalating, but he'd probably just run off to the Avengers full time.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Cause i want to see Beast leading the team i guess and i love to see wolvie and scott butt heads.

and it would make a good contradiction since Scott is supposed to be wound so tight compared to Wolvies beast rages and Beasts animal appearance.

1 - You're looking for another word than 'contradiction'.

2 - I respect your right to have these opinions and I am so leaving it at that.

[pariah-1972]

Beast and Cyclops are buddies, plus I don't really think Beast wants to lead.

Wolverine, now, I expect the conflict to keep escalating, but he'd probably just run off to the Avengers full time.I know but i just wish one of his old buddies would kick him in the ass once in a while for being such a stuck up jerk.


It seems the only one willing to stand up to Cyclops is Wolverine and even he seems to not do that anymore.

[pariah-1972]

1 - You're looking for another word than 'contradiction'.

2 - I respect your right to have these opinions and I am so leaving it at that.You don't see the contradiction between Scott and Logans personalities?

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

You know what, I take it back.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

You don't see the contradiction between Scott and Logans personalities?

I see both the differences and similarities.

TWO people can't have CONTRADICTORY personalities since they aren't part of the same entity.

[frog]

I see both the differences and similarities.

TWO people can't have CONTRADICTORY personalities since they aren't part of the same entity.

How about contrasting?

[pariah-1972]

I see both the differences and similarities.

TWO people can't have CONTRADICTORY personalities since they aren't part of the same entity.Either you are being too literal for words or you've been staring at a dictionary too long.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

How about contrasting?

I know that. That's what I've 'subtly' been trying to tell Pariah.

Either you are being too literal for words or you've been staring at a dictionary too long.

Not really, no. They're just not the same thing.

[KiplingKat]

Marvel has been pretty darn careless with the X-Verse, and the writing on Uncanny has ranged from "O.K.", to "pretty damn crappy" over the last 8 years.

So a reader who has not enjoyed it has a choice to either stick with it, buying every single issue no matter how bad it is, just because they are loyal or a completists (which is what kept me in the game this long), or they finally send Marvel a message saying "I spend 3 to 4 bucks an issue. I'm not going to put up with this crap anymore. I demand something better."

Because we all know there IS something better out there. There are very well written comics. There are very well written Marvel comics. There are very well written X-Comics. Uncanny is not one of any of those groups.

Fraction obviously had little influence on this issue since many of the same problems that Brubaker has had his entire run were still present. So either Fraction has the same problems with the X-Men that Brubaker had, or he couldn't get around Brubaker to have an impact here. Either way, the kind of crap we saw in this issue has to stop. And the only way to communicate that in a marketing driven world is to stop buying the comic.

If you think this was a spectacular issue, you liked it, then hey, enjoy. But for those of us that did not, that have been putting up with so much crap in the X-Titles because Marvel assumes that everyone is going to buy it no matter how bad it gets because it's Marvel and we're all just mindless loyal drones to be milked for all the spare cash Marvel can get out of us...

Maybe it's time to vote with our wallet/pocketbook.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

So you're saying to me that Logan and Scott has never butted heads?

Beast is and has pretty much always been a Cyke loyalist.
Wolvie currently is a hardcore Cyke loyalist.

You rant just happens to belong in another decade. :wink:

EDIT: Come to think of it, your anti-Cyke wishlist is really amusing considering how you complained about the writers/editors not respecting characterization and continuity. Oh well.

[darknessatnoon]

Beast is and has pretty much always been a Cyke loyalist.
Wolvie currently is a hardcore Cyke loyalist.

You rant just happens to belong in another decade. :wink:

darth,

I hate to tell you this, but the phrase "Cyke loyalist" is almost enough to make me hurl. Please use it less. As in never again.

[pariah-1972]

Beast is and has pretty much always been a Cyke loyalist.
Wolvie currently is a hardcore Cyke loyalist.

You rant just happens to belong in another decade. :wink:

EDIT: Come to think of it, your anti-Cyke wishlist is really amusing considering how you complained about the writers/editors not respecting characterization and continuity. Oh well.I know Beast is a loyalist but my point is he needs to grow a backbone.
And Wolverine is not loyal to him hes just too busy to fight with him since hes in 15 other books at the moment.

I'm not anti Cyclops understand please i just think he does a lot of dick headed shite lately that noone ever calls him on.
But thats the part i like about him is he does what he thinks is right and doesn't give a rip what anyone else thinks save maybe the professor.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

darth,

I hate to tell you this, but the phrase "Cyke loyalist" is almost enough to make me hurl. Please use it less. As in never again.

I hate to tell you this, but the words 'Sage is interesting' or 'Sage is a legitimite character' are enough to make me hurl. Please use them less. As in never again.

Or we could just humor one another, eh.

[Sentinel K]

darth,

I hate to tell you this, but the phrase "Cyke loyalist" is almost enough to make me hurl. Please use it less. As in never again.



A bit more condescending please

[darknessatnoon]

I hate to tell you this, but the words 'Sage is interesting' or 'Sage is a legitimite character' are enough to make me hurl. Please use them less. As in never again.

Or we could just humor one another, eh.

I consider Sage open to critique. I just can't humor fawning Cyclops worship. Cyclops is not the King of the X-Men. And he's certainly no Batman.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I know Beast is a loyalist but my point is he needs to grow a backbone.

And then what? Would he even know what to do? Or want to?

It's not so much him being Cyke's slave as him following because he believes Cyke gets more right than wrong.

And Wolverine is not loyal to him hes just too busy to fight with him since hes in 15 other books at the moment.

No way. Cyke was willing to kill his own flesh and blood for what they thought was the greater good. As far as Wolvie go, Cyke is GOD.

I'm not anti Cyclops understand please i just think he does a lot of dick headed shite lately that noone ever calls him on.

Oh, it will backfire no doubt.

But having people throw hypocritical hissy fits or growing "backbone" for the hell of it just ain't the way to go.

Hell, ask Magneto fans.

But thats the part i like about him is he does what he thinks is right and doesn't give a rip what anyone else thinks save maybe the professor.

Can't wait for next month's Legacy. :biggrin:

[Optic Rage!]

[QUOTE=darknessatnoon;7251054]I consider Sage open to critique. I just can't humor fawning Cyclops worship. Cyclops is not the King of the X-Men. And he's certainly no Batman.


Haha deny it all you want, but Cyclops is the king[and by that, i mean most important] of the X-Men, i know that you hate that, but it's true

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Who is having hypocritical hissy fits? the fans or the x-men??

Both, but I was referring to the characters, lol.

Beast was digging up corpses last year. Wolvie... well, it's Wolvie, lol. Storm had her own homicidal episodes. Rogue, Bobby and Sam enjoyed being hardcore. Same thing for all of the NXM.

They wouldn't be 'wrong' per se to say Cyke crossed a line, but they have no business being the ones calling him on it and pretending they're standing on some moral high ground.

I consider Sage open to critique. I just can't humor fawning Cyclops worship. Cyclops is not the King of the X-Men. And he's certainly no Batman.

For the love of... Fine, they'd be LOYAL to Cyke. Sheesh.

And it totally qualifies as primitive government. But I'll play nice.

[pariah-1972]

Both, but I was referring to the characters, lol.

Beast was digging up corpses last year. Wolvie... well, it's Wolvie, lol. Storm had her own homicidal episodes. Rogue, Bobby and Sam enjoyed being hardcore. Same thing for all of the NXM.

They wouldn't be 'wrong' per se to say Cyke crossed a line, but they have no business being the ones calling him on it and pretending they're standing on some moral high ground.



For the love of... Fine, they'd be LOYAL to Cyke. Sheesh.

And it totally qualifies as primitive government. But I'll play nice.So you think digging up corpses is as bad as sending a shock team to go around and kill human purifers?

[KiplingKat]

Because Uncanny X-Men is a comic book, not The New Yorker. A "fact checker" for a fictional story is unnecessary, and would be a gratuitous paycheck for the company. It would interfere with creative license. In the past, even when Marvel continuity was being "guarded," there were as many gaffes as now. Readers just got over it and wrote explanations for the discontinuities and won no-prizes. Now they go onto Magneto Boards and bitch up a storm. No one (sane) wants to read some fake history. X-Men is a soap opera, not The Book of Chronicles.

Without continuity, you threaten to break the suspension of disbelief that keeps the reader engaged in the story. It establishes a more "realistic" world for the story to be set in by providing a sense of logical progression. If you constantly switch things up on the readers, they loose interest because they can't stay vested in a universe where things change randomly at the whim of a writer. Just ask Chris Carter. Continuity is vital to storytelling in books, film, and television. And for some reason serial comic books do not need it?

[pariah-1972]

Because Uncanny X-Men is a comic book, not The New Yorker. A "fact checker" for a fictional story is unnecessary, and would be a gratuitous paycheck for the company. It would interfere with creative license. In the past, even when Marvel continuity was being "guarded," there were as many gaffes as now. Readers just got over it and wrote explanations for the discontinuities and won no-prizes. Now they go onto Magneto Boards and bitch up a storm. No one (sane) wants to read some fake history. X-Men is a soap opera, not The Book of Chronicles.Some of the best writers in the history of comic books would totally disagree with you on that.

I have some quotes if you would like to see them?

[KiplingKat]

Some of the best writers in the history of comic books would totally disagree with you on that.

I have some quotes if you would like to see them?

I would. :smile:

[pariah-1972]

I've met some aspiring writers and artists, or people who just really love comics, that I would trust to do that job well. Marvel could pay them minimum wage and they'd be lining up at the door.I think they should be giving more money than someone who works at mcdonalds im sorry.

[jester1436]

There's a difference between "realistic" continuity and "anal retentive I want to write Marvel Handbooks" continuity.

Writers should not be total slaves to continuity. They SHOULD be familiar with it so that they can break it or expand it further or whatever, but the point of comic books in the end isn't "continuity."

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

So you think digging up corpses is as bad as sending a shock team to go around and kill human purifers?

Personally? Worse.

Think of it this way. Cyke is waging a war against mutants-murderers. Beast desecrated the 'graves' - so to speak - of mutants.If it ever was known, Wolvie would put Hank into a coma and Hank would let him.

But, yeah, of course it's not as bad as killing people according to the law and your average pacifist ideal, lol. :biggrin:

[KiplingKat]

There's a difference between "realistic" continuity and "anal retentive I want to write Marvel Handbooks" continuity.

Writers should not be total slaves to continuity. They SHOULD be familiar with it so that they can break it or expand it further or whatever, but the point of comic books in the end isn't "continuity."

But without continuity, writers trash the validity of their own stories.

Yes, there is a difference. The problem is that the writers who complain the most about continuity, the ones that break it the most, can't seem to tell the difference. They assume that adhering to any continuity is "slavish".

Usually only after they have had the errors pointed out to them.

[Flâneur]

Without continuity, you threaten to break the suspension of disbelief that keeps the reader engaged in the story. It establishes a more "realistic" world for the story to be set in by providing a sense of logical progression. If you constantly switch things up on the readers, they loose interest because they can't stay vested in a universe where things change randomly at the whim of a writer. Just ask Chris Carter. Continuity is vital to storytelling in books, film, and television. And for some reason serial comic books do not need it?

"Thanks. I don't know. I'm no Stan Lee, but I definitely know how to steal from him. Stan was the one who realized that great comics have nothing to do with powers, costumes, or continuity, and everything to do with using these heroes as timeless metaphors for something meaningful about our real lives." - Brian K. Vaughan [emphasis mine]

[KiplingKat]

"Thanks. I don't know. I'm no Stan Lee, but I definitely know how to steal from him. Stan was the one who realized that great comics have nothing to do with powers, costumes, or continuity, and everything to do with using these heroes as timeless metaphors for something meaningful about our real lives." - Brian K. Vaughan [emphasis mine]

So if someone were to write a comic about a normal guy standing on a street corner doing random things that are not sequential, it would be o.k. so long as he was a "timeless metaphor"?

Just because Vaughan distilled the most important aspect of comics, that doesn't mean the other things he listed are not important to storytelling.

[pariah-1972]

Personally? Worse.

Think of it this way. Cyke is waging a war against mutants-murderers. Beast desecrated the 'graves' - so to speak - of mutants.If it ever was known, Wolvie would put Hank into a coma and Hank would let him.

But, yeah, of course it's not as bad as killing people according to the law and your average pacifist ideal, lol. :biggrin:Beast was digging up graves to save the mutant race i don't have any problems with that.
But killing humans is something the X-men used to be completely against especially Cyclops.

[frog]

Personally? Worse.

Think of it this way. Cyke is waging a war against mutants-murderers. Beast desecrated the 'graves' - so to speak - of mutants.If it ever was known, Wolvie would put Hank into a coma and Hank would let him.

But, yeah, of course it's not as bad as killing people according to the law and your average pacifist ideal, lol. :biggrin:

It's distasteful, and Beast certainly didn't enjoy it, but the dead are dead. You can't hurt them, just the people left behind - that's what graves and funerals and rituals are for, the living. Beast truly believed he was trying to help the living so I find it more forgivable than taking lives.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Beast was digging up graves to save the mutant race i don't have any problems with that.

I don't actually have a problem with either, actually.

Beast did what had to be done to save the mutant race.
Cyke is doing what has to be done so what's left of the mutant race won't need saving.

As I've said, I just personally think desecration is worse than killing murderers, eh.


But killing humans is something the X-men used to be completely against especially Cyclops.

The X-Men's 'no killing' policy has been an on and off thing, really.

[pariah-1972]

It's distasteful, and Beast certainly didn't enjoy it, but the dead are dead. You can't hurt them, just the people left behind - that's what graves and funerals and rituals are for, the living. Beast truly believed he was trying to help the living so I find it more forgivable than taking lives.Frog if you keep this up i'm going to have to marry you.

[KiplingKat]

I don't actually have a problem with either, actually.

Beast did what had to be done to save the mutant race.
Cyke is doing what has to be done so what's left of the mutant race won't need saving.

The X-Men's 'no killing' policy has been an onand off thing, really.

Yeah, they crossed that boundary some time ago, but that was in a fights. Heat of battle. Sending out hit squads? That's pushing the moral boundary quite a bit.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Of course it is.

And yet the Purifiers deserve WORSE, lol.

I'd have a problem with it if it meant killing babies and puppies. But we're talking about murderers.

EDIT: You know what? Come to think of it, the Purifiers *did* kill babies. And puppies no doubt die during MC's opener.

[pariah-1972]

I don't actually have a problem with either, actually.

Beast did what had to be done to save the mutant race.
Cyke is doing what has to be done so what's left of the mutant race won't need saving.

As I've said, I just personally think desecration is worse than killing murderers, eh.



The X-Men's 'no killing' policy has been an on and off thing, really.Only according to Wolverine.

[LawGiver]

Yeah, they crossed that boundary some time ago, but that was in a fights. Heat of battle. Sending out hit squads? That's pushing the moral boundary quite a bit.

He's sent out the hit squad on the Purifiers only. Do they not deserve it? It would be immoral for him not to try and stop them.

[tetragene]

I would just like to state that... I do not believe a job at McDonalds which is food services (regardless how unhealthy, fattening or unsavory you may find the food to be) is lowlier than a superfluous "fact/continuity checker" for a comic book industry which is less popular than in previous decades just so a few "in 1963 in issue #18, page 10, panel 4--THIS happened!" fans can feel validated as real fans that their "universe" is completely accounted for point A to point Z with no changes, 24/7. Sorry, just---no. Comics are for entertainment/enjoyment and to get you involved and caring about the characters & events. By the sounds of it what most of you would turn it into would be something only a select few (read: yourselves) would want to be a part of. Continuity should be respected, but should never be so rigid.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Only according to Wolverine.

Wolvie is *not* the only who's ever killed or tried to, lol.

[jester1436]

I would just like to state that... I do not believe a job at McDonalds which is food services (regardless how unhealthy, fattening or unsavory you may find the food to be) is lowlier than a superfluous "fact/continuity checker" for a comic book industry which is less popular than in previous decades just so a few "in 1963 in issue #18, page 10, panel 4--THIS happened!" fans can feel validated as real fans that their "universe" is completely accounted for point A to point Z with no changes, 24/7. Sorry, just---no. Comics are for entertainment/enjoyment and to get you involved and caring about the characters & events. By the sounds of it what most of you would turn it into would be something only a select few (read: yourselves) would want to be a part of. Continuity should be respected, but should never be so rigid.

I hate you Tetra.

:mad:

You made me want a delicious Big Mac. Mmmmm, special sauce. :frown:

[Deus ex Chris]

Continuity is a tool to be used not a law to be followed.

-Confucius

[pariah-1972]

I don't actually have a problem with either, actually.

Beast did what had to be done to save the mutant race.
Cyke is doing what has to be done so what's left of the mutant race won't need saving.

As I've said, I just personally think desecration is worse than killing murderers, eh.



The X-Men's 'no killing' policy has been an on and off thing, really.But your opinions wouldn't matter that much if word got out to the media that the x-men were going around sending death squads ( with two teenagers natch) to kill religious members or a cult San Francisco wouldn't be as open and welcoming to them.

[pariah-1972]

He's sent out the hit squad on the Purifiers only. Do they not deserve it? It would be immoral for him not to try and stop them.

Stopping and killing are two drastic different things.

Scott used to be the most hardcore about the no killing rule.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

But your opinions wouldn't matter that much if word got out to the media that the x-men were going around sending death squads ( with two teenagers natch) to kill religious members or a cult San Francisco wouldn't be as open and welcoming to them.

I have no idea where you're going with this.

I've been saying for quite a while that X-Force would backfire horribly, that Cyke would most likely have to go underground as an outlaw and that it was going to be awesome.

[KiplingKat]

I would just like to state that... I do not believe a job at McDonalds which is food services (regardless how unhealthy, fattening or unsavory you may find the food to be) is lowlier than a superfluous "fact/continuity checker" for a comic book industry which is less popular than in previous decades just so a few "in 1963 in issue #18, page 10, panel 4--THIS happened!" fans can feel validated as real fans that their "universe" is completely accounted for point A to point Z with no changes, 24/7. Sorry, just---no. Comics are for entertainment/enjoyment and to get you involved and caring about the characters & events. By the sounds of it what most of you would turn it into would be something only a select few (read: yourselves) would want to be a part of. Continuity should be respected, but should never be so rigid.

But where is the line drawn? And how can you continue to care about the characters if their personality changes randomly? I mean Reed Richards went from noble scientist, to suddenly becoming Dr. Mengle creating clone/Cyborg Thors. Moral to amoral in the blink of an eye. How do you stay vested in that?

I'm not saying that every single detail from 40 years ago must be included, but there has to be some continuity. There has to be some kind of stable framework.

And I don't think that the decline in comic book popularity has to do with fans who want to see continuity respected.

[LawGiver]

Stopping and killing are two drastic different things.

Scott used to be the most hardcore about the no killing rule.

Yea, now he realized that living in a fantasy world were you play patty-cake is not the right course of action. He got tired of seeing villains continue to comeback and harm the X-Men. One way to fix them coming back, kill them. It's the right move.

[pariah-1972]

I have no idea where you're going with this.

I've been saying for quite a while that X-Force would backfire horribly, that Cyke would most likely have to go underground as an outlaw and that it was going to be awesome.First of your starting to worry me,
i have never seen you saw that (not to say you didn't but i only read one issue of x-force and dropped it) and second of all if you love Cyke so much why would you want him to be an outlaw ?
I don't think he would be leading the main x-men team if he drove them all underground after being accepted in Frisco.

[pariah-1972]

Yea, now he realized that living in a fantasy world were you play patty-cake is not the right course of action. He got tired of seeing villains continue to comeback and harm the X-Men. One way to fix them coming back, kill them. It's the right move.Living in a fantasy world isn't that what comic books are?
And what happened to morals and right and wrong?

[LawGiver]

Living in a fantasy world isn't that what comic books are?
And what happened to morals and right and wrong?

It's a fantasy world, as you said, you can easily suspend morals of right and wrong.

It's also morally right to send those bastards to meet their maker. The Law isn't doing it, SHIELD isn't doing it, so Cyclops has to take up the role in protecting his people. X-Force is the best way to do it. Kill them all.

[Mikl C]

I thought it was boring, the art changing was jarring, Dodsons aren't as good as I remember, the storyline was forced and the fight was anti climatical.

2/5

[jarrod]

I do sort of think an artist change up might help too... I still think overall, Extremists was probably the best of Brubaker's arcs, and that probably rests somewhat at least on Salva's storytelling ability. The DWS arc was okay all around, the better parts of it coming from the Russian excursion and the worse being San Fran. Tan's stuff has almost all been awful, Rise was probably the worst core X-Men story since Austin's transgressions, and even the MX tie ins were pretty bad and well below par compared to the high standard the rest of the crossover set. I do think a stronger artist would help though, a lot of the niggles in #500 were likely aggrivated by portrayal... on a book like Uncanny, you really need an artist who can basically draw *anything*. I think Dodson might be up to that challenge (just barely) but Land's definitely going to be problematic. You really do need someone like Salva, Davis, Copiel, Quitely, etc.

The other big problem I see potentially going forward is cast. Initially I thought sharing key characters with Astonishing would work well, especially coming off Whedon's drawn out run where the characters almost felt held hostage. There was also sentiment from Brubaker that he was somewhat dissatisfied with cast limitations before, so I figured maybe this would open his possibilities up more and allow him a better feel for characterizations if it were X-Men he was more enthusiastic about.

Now though, I think shared casts might be a mistake. Partially because Ellis' stellar characterization are frankly making Bruction look pretty bad by comparison, but mostly I think we may start getting some character fatigue seeing the same core of X-Men so often. I think in the short term, it would definitely benefit Bruction to focus on the non-Astonishing, non-X-Force characters like Nightcrawler, Colossus, Cannonball, Dazzler, Karma and others, and honestly it'd have probably been better if #500 had as well.

[pariah-1972]

It's a fantasy world, as you said, you can easily suspend morals of right and wrong.

It's also morally right to send those bastards to meet their maker. The Law isn't doing it, SHIELD isn't doing it, so Cyclops has to take up the role in protecting his people. X-Force is the best way to do it. Kill them all.But the thing is comics used to be about morals and morality so i can't suspend something thats integral to the medium.

[KiplingKat]

The other big problem I see potentially going forward is cast. Initially I thought sharing key characters with Astonishing would work well, especially coming off Whedon's drawn out run where the characters almost felt held hostage. There was also sentiment from Brubaker that he was somewhat dissatisfied with cast limitations before, so I figured maybe this would open his possibilities up more and allow him a better feel for characterizations if it were X-Men he was more enthusiastic about.

Now though, I think shared casts might be a mistake. Partially because Ellis' stellar characterization are frankly making Bruction look pretty bad by comparison, but mostly I think we may start getting some character fatigue seeing the same core of X-Men so often. I think in the short term, it would definitely benefit Bruction to focus on the non-Astonishing characters like Nightcrawler, Colossus, Archangel, Dazzler, Karma and other, and honestly it'd have been better if #500 had as well.

Agreed. Playing the same characters in two titles creates too direct a comparison of writing abilities, and it takes up panel space that could be used to develop other characters, especially B-Listers and new characters who could use more devlopment.

[Sentinel K]

Now though, I think shared casts might be a mistake. Partially because Ellis' stellar characterization are frankly making Bruction look pretty bad by comparison, but mostly I think we may start getting some character fatigue seeing the same core of X-Men so often. I think in the short term, it would definitely benefit Bruction to focus on the non-Astonishing characters like Nightcrawler, Colossus, Archangel, Dazzler, Karma and other, and honestly it'd have been better if #500 had as well.

I used to be a big Cyke fan but at the moment I am SO bored of him. And Emma.

I really wouldn't mind not seeing them for a while. Not that that is going to happen.

I think that's why I liked Carey's X-men so much. It was a pretty fresh line-up.

I want more Nightcrawler and Dazzler.

[LawGiver]

But the thing is comics used to be about morals and morality so i can't suspend something thats integral to the medium.

So you can watch as fanatics kill innocent kids and then recieve no justice?

[Flâneur]

So if someone were to write a comic about a normal guy standing on a street corner doing random things that are not sequential, it would be o.k. so long as he was a "timeless metaphor"?

Just because Vaughan distilled the most important aspect of comics, that doesn't mean the other things he listed are not important to storytelling.
Why should the most important aspect of comic book narrative be enslaved by something far less important? We do not want to read hand books, equations or essays on the history of the marvel universe; we want a narrative, regardless of it being linear or not, and placing creativity in bondage (that's a reference to continuity, right there :wink: ) to continuity is ridiculous. It is even more telling when one realises that the main reason we have continuity between writers is simply because of branding. I'm sure however, that maintaining a brand is much more important to you than a quality story.

And, comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus) never (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_%28comics%29) work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epileptic_%28graphic_novel%29) without (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabuki_%28comics%29) powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_O) or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalped) costumes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Losers_%28comics%29). No (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y:_The_Last_Man) one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Bullets) would (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Splendor[/url) disagree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Virgin_%28comics%29) there. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMZ_%28DC_Comics%29)

[pariah-1972]

I thought it was boring, the art changing was jarring, Dodsons aren't as good as I remember, the storyline was forced and the fight was anti climatical.

2/5I think there art was a lot better than the spider-man story they did with Silent Bob where they draw Black Cats boobs so damn big she had to make excuses and jokes for it.

[pariah-1972]

So you can watch as fanatics kill innocent kids and then recieve no justice?Justice and murder are two different things and i would expect someone with the name LAW GIVER would understand the difference.

[KiplingKat]

Why should the most important aspect of comic book narrative be enslaved by something far less important? We do not want to read hand books, equations or essays on the history of the marvel universe; we want a narrative, regardless of it being linear or not, and placing creativity in bondage (that's a reference to continuity, right there :wink: ) to continuity is ridiculous. It is even more telling when one realises that the main reason we have continuity between writers is simply because of branding. I'm sure however, that maintaining a brand is much more important to you than a quality story.

And, comics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maus) never (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criminal_%28comics%29) work (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epileptic_%28graphic_novel%29) without (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabuki_%28comics%29) powers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebastian_O) or (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scalped) costumes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Losers_%28comics%29). No (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y:_The_Last_Man) one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/100_Bullets) would (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Splendor[/url) disagree (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Virgin_%28comics%29) there. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DMZ_%28DC_Comics%29)

Maus is not a linear narrative?

There is a big difference between deliberately playing with timelines like Slaughterhouse Five, and simply not bothering to deal with what came before. Even Camus and Sartre used continuity

And you do not have to enslave archetypes to continuity. It is not an either/or situation.

Without continuity, there is no narrative. There is just random crap that makes no sense.

[LawGiver]

Justice and murder are two different things and i would expect someone with the name LAW GIVER would understand the difference.

No, I'm sorry, at times they are one and the same and what X-Force is doing to the Purifiers is fine. Waiting for someone else to protect you is pathetic.

[Deus ex Chris]

Without continuity, there is no narrative. There is just random crap.
The narrative must abide by its own continuity, but that's not what you're talking about.

[tetragene]

But the thing is comics used to be about morals and morality so i can't suspend something thats integral to the medium.

and it still is--but who is going to have the exact same morals all their life going through the things the X-Men have gone through? Comics had a very strict/high horse sense of morals back in the day when it was basically aimed primarily at young kids. But you don't have young kids reading the books as often as you did back then--now it's teens on up, who have been grounded in reality tv and shows like Nip/Tuck which push moral boundaries. I think it only makes sense that comics take a more realistic approach with character morals as well. Especially with Cyke--everything he's been through (if even mirroring the trials of other mutants) how realistic would it be to have the shit hitting the fan even harder and go "ok, well--we've been doing things this way since I was 15 and it never really worked--but lets just keep doing it! Its the most moral thing to do, who cares if it will actually work/save us or not." That'd be hoakey, quite frankly and pushing moral high ground just for the sake of pushing it.

But anyone who thinks that working at a fast food is a great thing is demented.

anyone that thinks a continuity checker at Marvel deserves higher wage than someone working their ass off at McDonalds to serve the masses food is demented.

[KiplingKat]

The narrative must abide by its own continuity, but that's not what you're talking about.

Right, and as comics are serials, one story flowing into another, they need continuity within that story. In essence, all of (Uncanny) X-Men, from issue #1 published in 1963 to Issue #500, is one single story.

[jarrod]

I view continuity like any other "rule", of course you can break it. But if you're going to break it you need to make sure you're doing everything successfully and well enough, otherwise all that'll be focused on are the breaks themselves.

Morrison played fast and loose with continuity and I never had a problem with it. And that's because he put out a damn great book. If Bruction were doing the same, we'd have probably avoided most of this thread.

[pariah-1972]

No, I'm sorry, at times they are one and the same and what X-Force is doing to the Purifiers is fine. Waiting for someone else to protect you is pathetic.They are not waiting for someone else to protect them they are aggressively murdering people.

[Deus ex Chris]

Right, and as comic are serials, one story flowing into another, they need continuity within that story. In essence, all of (Uncanny) X-Men, from issue #1 published in 1963 to Issue #500 is one single story.
It's not one story. It's a series of stories.

[LawGiver]

They are not waiting for someone else to protect them they are aggressively murdering people.

Who are plotting to murder the entire mutant race, is that lost on you? Should they sit around until the Purifiers come with an army to MURDER every mutant?

It's proactive self-defense.

[pariah-1972]

and it still is--but who is going to have the exact same morals all their life going through the things the X-Men have gone through? Comics had a very strict/high horse sense of morals back in the day when it was basically aimed primarily at young kids. But you don't have young kids reading the books as often as you did back then--now it's teens on up, who have been grounded in reality tv and shows like Nip/Tuck which push moral boundaries. I think it only makes sense that comics take a more realistic approach with character morals as well. Especially with Cyke--everything he's been through (if even mirroring the trials of other mutants) how realistic would it be to have the shit hitting the fan even harder and go "ok, well--we've been doing things this way since I was 15 and it never really worked--but lets just keep doing it! Its the most moral thing to do, who cares if it will actually work/save us or not." That'd be hoakey, quite frankly and pushing moral high ground just for the sake of pushing it.



anyone that thinks a continuity checker at Marvel deserves higher wage than someone working their ass off at McDonalds to serve the masses food is demented.Being a continuity checker at Marvel would be a lot harder job than flipping burgers all day.

[Swashbuckler]

This is stupid. We aren't even discussing the rumor because once again KK has crapped all over a thread because he doesn't like the book. Fine. Talk about the STORY ELEMENTS that bother you, not the greater issue you have with X-Men comics. Ok?

I found it interesting that the X-Men gave the mayor a tour of their entire base. Did she really need to see all that? She could end up being a liability to the team and that's not what they need. I know they hid the location from her mind, but they did show her what the view looked like form the top, she could probably figure it out.

I wondered how all the citizens in San Fran knew how the X-Men dressed in days past. I mean, the X-Men haven't really been celebrities, so to see so many characters idolized in celebration was interesting. That costume shop who sold those must have made a fortune.

I am not really sure I followed all of the Celestial's plot. Who is the Kingo Sunen person? Is he new, an established entity? What? Also, has Simon Trask appeared before, I wasn't familiar with him either. I know who Bolivar is of course, but not Simon.

Angel disabeling the sentinel and not responding was interesting. Was this a reference to him posibly being "arachangel" and that being why he didn't respond to Emma? The other battle with the rest of the X-Men was alright, but I would have enjoyed more teamwork and it sucked that once AGAIN Nightcrawler just got knocked out. Let the guy get some blows in already!

I enjoyed the issue because of the nostalgia and plot spotting that was going on. Lots of bad guys are on the horizon, and this set things up.

[KiplingKat]

It's not one story. It's a series of stories.

It is one story with chapters. Current story arcs have usually been built up over time while previous story arcs dominated the panel space. It's continuous.

[frog]

I found it interesting that the X-Men gave the mayor a tour of their entire base. Did she really need to see all that? She could end up being a liability to the team and that's not what they need. I know they hid the location from her mind, but they did show her what the view looked like form the top, she could probably figure it out.




What got to me about that bit is that in the previous issue it was implied that the mayor was responsible for guiding them to their new digs. I don't buy that the X-Men's base is very well hidden.

[pariah-1972]

Who are plotting to murder the entire mutant race, is that lost on you? Should they sit around until the Purifiers come with an army to MURDER every mutant?

It's proactive self-defense.These are the exact type of people who have been anti-mutant since forever but you are using a strawman argument to defend your views no the X-men don't have to wait around for the purifers to come kill them all again.
since that has already happened once and they didn't do anything during the battle to stop them which was unfortunately either set up on purpose or just lazy writing i'm not sure which.


If they had sent Wolverine and the other Hack and Slashers to defend themselves and the kids DURING the battle i might have been semi- ok with that part.
But Cyke spent seemingly months ignoring that and just deciding at the end of messiah complex to have Wolverine send out a strike force with Two Teenage Girls in it.

[Deus ex Chris]

I found it interesting that the X-Men gave the mayor a tour of their entire base. Did she really need to see all that? She could end up being a liability to the team and that's not what they need. I know they hid the location from her mind, but they did show her what the view looked like form the top, she could probably figure it out.
I really enjoyed the mayor. She seems fun, and I hope she sticks around. However, the psychic blindfold was a bit pointless.

I wondered how all the citizens in San Fran knew how the X-Men dressed in days past. I mean, the X-Men haven't really been celebrities, so to see so many characters idolized in celebration was interesting. That costume shop who sold those must have made a fortune.
The X-Men have gotten quite a bit of media coverage in that past (a little continuity for you!). I thought it was kind of a neat if somewhat forced homage.

I am not really sure I followed all of the Celestial's plot. Who is the Kingo Sunen person? Is he new, an established entity? What? Also, has Simon Trask appeared before, I wasn't familiar with him either. I know who Bolivar is of course, but not Simon.
I loved Sunen. I hope we see him again, and I'm curious to see what's up with Simon. I'm inclined to believe he's actually Uncle Bolly.

Angel disabeling the sentinel and not responding was interesting. Was this a reference to him posibly being "arachangel" and that being why he didn't respond to Emma? The other battle with the rest of the X-Men was alright, but I would have enjoyed more teamwork and it sucked that once AGAIN Nightcrawler just got knocked out. Let the guy get some blows in already!
Yeah, the Angel thing definitely seems like an Archangel moment. I'm curious to see how that turns out. Also, poor Nightcrawler. He didn't even get a line, did he?

I enjoyed the issue because of the nostalgia and plot spotting that was going on. Lots of bad guys are on the horizon, and this set things up.
Yeah, I'm very enthusiastic about what comes next.

[LawGiver]

These are the exact type of people who have been anti-mutant since forever but you are using a strawman argument to defend your views no the X-men don't have to wait around for the purifers to come kill them all again.
since that has already happened once and they didn't do anything during the battle to stop them which was unfortunately either set up on purpose or just lazy writing i'm not sure which.


If they had sent Wolverine and the other Hack and Slashers to defend themselves and the kids DURING the battle i might have been semi- ok with that part.
But Cyke spent seemingly months ignoring that and just deciding at the end of messiah complex to have Wolverine send out a strike force with Two Teenage Girls in it.


It's not a strawman argument at all. Messiah Complex changed the way Cyclops worked. With so many past villains coming back and doing damage to the X-Men, you read the comics so I'm not gonna list all the previous villains that returned, he decided it was time to be more proactive. That if mutants are to have a future we need to make sure there are enough of them around to protect the new generation being born. That is why he kept X-Force around after MC. He changed his way of thinking, a new thought process, he's being proactive now instead of reactive.

[DDM]

Being a continuity checker at Marvel would be a lot harder job than flipping burgers all day.

Peter Sanderson was hired by Marvel to research the enitire Marvel Universe for The Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe project inspired by Contest of Champions (read the back entries). If you love the job, it's not a job. Sanderson left his editorial position within Marvel to become a writer. He would also be hired by DC Comics to fulfill a similar position for DC Comics's original Who's Who.

Sanderson already had was a fountainhead of information if you are familiar with his many published letters to Marvel Comics.

With executive editor, Mark Gruenwald, they did a tremendous job on the series. It was grueling work since every entry was constantly updated. However, I see the entries as worth the time & patience in the research.

There's other writers as well, but these two--Mark Gruenwald & Peter Sanderson--stand out.

This is a job can could be done if Marvel really wants it to be done; however, Marvel must find the right person to fulfill this job.

[KiplingKat]

This is stupid. We aren't even discussing the rumor because once again KK has crapped all over a thread because he doesn't like the book. Fine. Talk about the STORY ELEMENTS that bother you, not the greater issue you have with X-Men comics. Ok?

O.K.

We'll skip Greg Land's tracing, which he even used the same figures twice within this issue. We'll also skip his typically awkward composition, and the fact that Emma looks like teen-age cheerleader from San Dimas on extacy at the end of the comic.

First of all, IF Magneto and the High Evolutionary are trying to undo the effects of M-Day (and given what Magneto said it certainly sounded like it), why did they need to hide what they were doing? Beast contacted Wyndham in Endangered Species to get help correcting M-Day. Wouldn’t the X-men want to assist them? Or at least stay out of their way?

Secondly, why would Magneto bother to create this large convoluted situation in order to distract the X-Men? He could have started a ruckus in the middle of sporting event or concert. He could have started ripping up one of the bridges in the middle of rush hour to achieve the same effect. There was simply no need for them to go through all that trouble. Especially to use Sentinels, which Magneto would find utterly abhorrent given the Genoshan Massacre.

Here is how the fight should have gone down:Magneto shows up, destroys the Sentinels and tries to murder the artist, but the X-Men stop him. That makes a hell of a lot more sense than what happened in the comic.

Forty-five years and “Magneto tactics” still means “Everyone take a turn like a bad martial arts film”? Compare this fight to the X-Men Vs. Magneto fight in Uncanny #113. As one guy in my LCBS said, "What was the point of the Danger Room is the X-men are not going to use tactics?"

The fight was paced horribly. Did we really need an entire page of panel showing Peter getting tossed through a building?

Characters (Storm, Cannonball) literally showed up to beat on Magneto and disappear. Were not in the issue before, weren't in the issue afterward.

Nightcrawler, longstanding member of the X-Men is present...and speaks all of five words.

Characters (Storm, Cannonball) appearing for a couple panels and disappearing again, creating a very forced dues ex machina effect.

The dialog is horrendous.

Then there was the X-Men wondering how a guy who controls electromagnetism turns on a giant robot. (Hel-loooo!)

And hasn’t Storm learned by now that throwing lightning at someone who controls ELECTROmagnetism is simply handing him a weapon?

The end of the fight was very anti-climactic.

Then there is the incongruity between what Cannonball did and what Magneto said to the High Evolutionary about the suit making him feel “more powerful than he ever had been before”. And he’s taken out by Cannonball? Just by blasting into him? Are you kidding? Magneto’s shields have stopped blows from Thor and the She-Hulk, at once! He has stopped ceramic missiles that were fired at his back while fighting off the X-Men. We’re talking about a guy who was held the planetary EM field together while he was fighting a younger version of himself. That has raised piece of the ocean’s crust to create small islands. That has started playing around with space-time. He’s been a lot more powerful than he showed in this issue. So either the suit did not make him measure up to his previous power levels and Magneto was...being nice about or something, or what happened makes no sense.

“You find a way to fake out losing your powers? We’ll find a way to stop you from ever doing it again.” Uhm…no Scott, Magneto is faking having his powers. If he is relying on a suit he really did lose them. (I won’t even touch the screamingly out of character and unnecessary “Suck it”.)

Then there was Emma, who is now more powerful than Xavier has ever been.

Scott calling all mutants to gather in one place...where they can be wiped out....again.

Don't look at me folks, Swash asked for it.

[pariah-1972]

It's not a strawman argument at all. Messiah Complex changed the way Cyclops worked. With so many past villains coming back and doing damage to the X-Men, you read the comics so I'm not gonna list all the previous villains that returned, he decided it was time to be more proactive. That if mutants are to have a future we need to make sure there are enough of them around to protect the new generation being born. That is why he kept X-Force around after MC. He changed his way of thinking, a new thought process, he's being proactive now instead of reactive.The past villians were coming back yes hell they put a bunch of them on there team and looked how that turned out LOL.

I agree that the X-men should be more pro-active but i don't consider waiting months after a bunch of psycho cult members destroyed your school and killed most of your students pro-active at all.

[jarrod]

I tend to think more restrictions on creative types is generally bad by default. Really, it's the editors jobs to shape the line and protect the brand, and while I do think continuity fits into that, it should be pliable.

That said, I don't think the core "issues" with UXN 500 were rooted continuity directly.

[KiplingKat]

What got to me about that bit is that in the previous issue it was implied that the mayor was responsible for guiding them to their new digs. I don't buy that the X-Men's base is very well hidden.

Yeah, huge building in a big open space in the headlands...I don't think it is going to be that hard to find them.

Especially since Scott just announced to the mutant enemies where they are.

[LawGiver]

The past villians were coming back yes hell they put a bunch of them on there team and looked how that turned out LOL.

I agree that the X-men should be more pro-active but i don't consider waiting months after a bunch of psycho cult members destroyed your school and killed most of your students pro-active at all.

What about waiting right after they just murdered a whole town full of people for one mutant baby?

[DDM]

I tend to think more restrictions on creative types is generally bad by default. Really, it's the editors jobs to shape the line and protect the brand, and while I do think continuity fits into that, it should be pliable.

That said, I don't think the core "issues" with UXN 500 were rooted continuity directly.

Without continuity & a context, all you have is pin-ups & pretty pictures of landscapes. Continuity must be enforced to a point.

[Deus ex Chris]

Without continuity & a context, all you have is pin-ups & pretty pictures of landscapes. Continuity must be enforced to a point.
You can have context and continuity without declaring martial law, DDM.

[KiplingKat]

You can have context and continuity without declaring martial law, DDM.

Who is saying anything about Martial law?

This is the thing: You guys are presenting this as an either/or discussion, when it is not. There are points where continuity can be bent, and if explained well enough, broken outright.

But there has to be some kind of stable framework, within the universe, within stories, and within characters, or there is nothing to invest in.

[DDM]

You can have context and continuity without declaring martial law, DDM.

You can't have Magneto with Mister Fantastic's powers with his origin coming from the Negative Zone. This is what you get without enforced continuity.

[LawGiver]

Who is saying anything about Martial law?

This is the thing: You guys are presenting this as an either/or discussion, when it is not. There are points where continuity can be bent, and if explained well enough, broken outright.

But there has to be some kind of stable framework, within the universe, within stories, and within characters, or there is nothing to invest in.

Who's to say this stuff won't be explained? That at the end of the Magneto plot-line it won't perfectly make sense.

[Deus ex Chris]

This is the thing: You guys are presenting this as an either/or discussion, when it is not. There are points where continuity can be bent, and if explained well enough, broken outright.

But there has to be some kind of stable framework, with the universe, within stories, and within characters, or there is nothing to invest in.
No, we're saying continuity is secondary to telling a good story. You guys are saying it's integral. That's the difference.

[pariah-1972]

What about waiting right after they just murdered a whole town full of people for one mutant baby?Maybe.
But the problem is if you want to take this seriously
is now that the x-men are now completely out in the open and public in Frisco which is renown as a a pacifistic community,
so if they where to ever find out what Scott had ordered / gave permission for Wolverine to do than the shit would hit the media fan like no other scandal you have ever seen before.

[Deus ex Chris]

You can't have Magneto with Mister Fantastic's powers with his origin coming from the Negative Zone. This is what you get without enforced continuity.
Don't be absurd. Nothing like this has happened, and there is no danger of it happening.

[KiplingKat]

Who's to say this stuff won't be explained? That at the end of the Magneto plot-line it won't perfectly make sense.

Because I can't see any way it could. The entire set up was an extremely forced and convoluted attempt to have an "Old Timey X-Men Vs. Magneto & Sentinels" fight. That much was glaringly obvious. Whatever they do with the character now is to make excuses for that marketing driven decision.

My explanation is that this Magneto is a skrull. That is about the only thing that makes sense given his behavior and the situation.

[KiplingKat]

Don't be absurd. Nothing like this has happened, and there is no danger of it happening.

Yeah, but you did have Mr. Fantastic going from moral to amoral in Civil War with no explanation. I mean, that one was waaay out of the ballpark. It damaged the validity of Millar's story, it damaged the audience investing the story and Richards as a character.

[KiplingKat]

No, we're saying continuity is secondary to telling a good story. You guys are saying it's integral. That's the difference.

It is integral. Even in novels that play with time and perception there is still continuity.

[Deus ex Chris]

Yeah, but you did have Mr. Fantastic going from moral to amoral in Civil War. I mean, that one was waaay out of the ballpark.
It's your opinion that he was amoral. It is my opinion that he was concerned with the greater good, as a someone of his intellect and standing would and should be.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

First of your starting to worry me,
i have never seen you saw that (not to say you didn't but i only read one issue of x-force and dropped it) and second of all if you love Cyke so much why would you want him to be an outlaw ?

You'd think my nickname was a hint, lol.

But it isn't so much me 'wishing for it' as me outright 'calling it'.


I don't think he would be leading the main x-men team if he drove them all underground after being accepted in Frisco.

Not sure what's that supposed to mean. That he should give the job to someone else and go underground already or...?

Especially since Scott just announced to the mutant enemies where they are.

The guy was willing to have his son killed. Would *you* go knocking on his door looking for trouble? :biggrin:

Seriously, though, I got nothing. Ems can talk to them all but can't pinpoint the good/bad ones and communicate with them individually...? :confused:

P.S. I gotta say, I'm still not quite sure what's the big deal with the good/bad guys not playing it smart. How the hell is that novelty anyway in the x-verse anyway?

[LawGiver]

Maybe.
But the problem is if you want to take this seriously
is now that the x-men are now completely out in the open and public in Frisco which is renown as a a pacifistic community,
so if they where to ever find out what Scott had ordered / gave permission for Wolverine to do than the shit would hit the media fan like no other scandal you have ever seen before.

When the !$%^ hits the fan it'll make for a great story imo, it's one of the things I like about the concept, he's trying to keep this a secret and we all know there is no chance in Hell that this will be able to stay a secret.

As for putting them out in the open in a city, it's really not much better than the Mansion, atleast now they don't know EXACTLY where the X-Men live.

Because I can't see any way it could. The entire set up was an extremely forced and convoluted attempt to have an "Old Timey X-Men Vs. Magneto & Sentinels" fight. That much was glaringly obvious. Whatever they do with the character now is to make excuses for that marketing driven decision.

My explanation is that this Magneto is a skrull. That is about the only thing that makes sense given his behavior and the situation.

Then you need a better imagination.

[Deus ex Chris]

It is integral. Even in novels that play with time and perception there is still continuity.
Again, they abide by their own continuity, which isn't what you guys are talking about. You're just pissed off that Magneto wasn't portrayed how you wanted him to be. That isn't the same thing.

[pariah-1972]

It's your opinion that he was amoral. It is my opinion that he was concerned with the greater good, as a someone of his intellect and standing would and should be.Aren't some villians more worried about the "greater good" as an excuse to do whatever they want?

[Deus ex Chris]

Aren't some villians more worried about the "greater good" as an excuse to do whatever they want?
I believe you've just hit on one of the things that makes the notion of the greater good so interesting to read about.

[KiplingKat]

It's your opinion that he was amoral. It is my opinion that he was concerned with the greater good, as a someone of his intellect and standing would and should be.

He went from Reed Richards to creating clone cyborgs of a being he had worked with personally for years, without that being's permission, in order to sway public opinion and have a weapon against people on the other side of a philosophical debate. He created a concentration camp in the Neutral Zoe to imprison people on the other side of that debate.

That wasn't a grey area, that was a big ol' black line there that he crossed.

[LawGiver]

I believe you've just hit on one of the things that makes the notion of the greater good so interesting to read about.

Which is all anyone should be asking for, an interesting topic to read about, something to spark the imagination, to escape the mundane lifestyle we all lead.

[pariah-1972]

You'd think my nickname was a hint, lol.

But it isn't so much me 'wishing for it' as me outright 'calling it'.




Not sure what's that supposed to mean. That he should give the job to someone else and go underground already or...?



The guy was willing to have his son killed. Would *you* go knocking on his door looking for trouble? :biggrin:

Seriously, though, I got nothing. Ems can talk to them all but can't pinpoint the good/bad ones and communicate with them individually...? :confused:

P.S. I gotta say, I'm still not quite sure what's the big deal with the good/bad guys not playing it smart. How the hell is that novelty anyway in the x-verse anyway?Ok if you were on a team that was just starting to get public acclaim and recognition and all of a sudden he made one stupid error by letting the rabid dog known as Wolverine loose
the X-men lost everything they had would you still follow him underground and not say anything to him?
I personally would be kicking his ass from Frisco back to to NY.

[KiplingKat]

I believe you've just hit on one of the things that makes the notion of the greater good so interesting to read about.

It's interesting you bag on me for being a Magneto fan then, because that's what he has been doing for...at least 30 years now.

[LawGiver]

It's interesting you bag on me for being a Magneto fan then, because that's what he has been doing for...at least 30 years now.

I'm a big Magneto fan, I think he's one of the most interesting and compelling villains in comics history, it's why reading this new plot thread about him is so interesting. What could possibly be the plan that makes him team up w/ the H.E.? What does the Celestial have to do with it? What does the Eternal Kingo Sunen have to do w/ it? I can't wait to read and find out.

[pariah-1972]

When the !$%^ hits the fan it'll make for a great story imo, it's one of the things I like about the concept, he's trying to keep this a secret and we all know there is no chance in Hell that this will be able to stay a secret.

As for putting them out in the open in a city, it's really not much better than the Mansion, atleast now they don't know EXACTLY where the X-Men live.



Actually thats another retarded stunt Scott just did he announced to every evil mutant exactly where they are located and practically said "come and get us"

[LawGiver]

O.K., you tell me then. You explain to me how Magneto went from the guy in Excalibur Vol. 3, House of M, Son of M, New Avengers #20, and X-Men: Legacy became the guy we saw in Uncanny #500.

He was offered a way to help restore the mutant race.

[jarrod]

No, we're saying continuity is secondary to telling a good story. You guys are saying it's integral. That's the difference.
Honestly, I don't see those two viewpoints as necessarily at odds with each other. With something like serial fiction, I think both fundamentally apply.

[Deus ex Chris]

He was offered a way to help restore the mutant race.
Exactly. He was given new hope, and that renewed his drive. There isn't even a continuity issue here, which makes this all the more humorous.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

all of a sudden he made one stupid error by letting the rabid dog known as Wolverine loose

Error in the sense that it will backfire, yes.
Error in the sense that it shouldn't be done, no.


the X-men lost everything they had would you still follow him underground and not say anything to him?

For going after people that torched babies and got a free pass? Yes, absolutely.


I personally would be kicking his ass from Frisco back to to NY.

Who said no one would or should try once things start going insanely wrong? I sure as hell didn't. OF COURSE some will wuss out. Sheesh.

[LawGiver]

Exactly. He was given new hope, and that renewed his drive. There isn't even a continuity issue here, which makes this all the more humorous.

I do not even think there is a continuity issue here with High Evolutionary, I think when he talked to Beast he just refused to help him.

[KiplingKat]

He was offered a way to help restore the mutant race.

In New Avengers #20, Xorn offered to give Magneto his powers back and save the mutant race. Magneto asked the Avengers to kill him instead of using a agent of genocide to achieve his goals and get back the keystone of his adult identity.

So why is he willing to use agents of genocide now?

The Sentinels are not just big bad robots. They killed 16 million of "his people" on Genosha. It would be like Magneto "using Hitler" to restore the mutant species. He wouldn't use Hitler, Magneto would kill him on sight.

And that ignores the question of: If they are trying to restore the mutant species, why are they at odd with the X-Men in the first place? Why did Magneto need to create such a convoluted set up to distract the X-men? And why is Magneto acting like such an ass during the whole thing?

X-Men: Legacy Magneto, who appeared only a couple months prior, and this guy. Two different people.

[jarrod]

People need to stop ragging on Scott for appropriating Storm and Rachel's decade old ideas. He's like the Obama of the X-Men, clearly only his singularly unique vision and judgement can really lead us to something better. Worship him, it's your only real choice anyway. <3 <3

[Deus ex Chris]

Honestly, I don't see those two viewpoints as necessarily at odds with each other. With something like serial fiction, I think both fundamentally apply.
Not always but it seems to be in this particular instance. It's a matter of degrees. To what extent is continuity important? That kind of thing.

[pariah-1972]

Then we're just gonna have to end here on a disagreement.Did we read the same book? or should i quote exact words? the "message" that Emma gave them clearly said good and evil mutants alike.

EXACT Quote time "this message is reaching every known mutant in the world"
"good bad friend whoever you are whenever you are" "and san francisco is now a mutant sanctuary"
Smooth move Ex Lax why don't you just send Magnto and Sinister a stamped envelope.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

People need to stop ragging on Scott for appropriating Storm and Rachel's decade old ideas. He's like the Obama of the X-Men, clearly only his singularly unique vision and judgement can really lead us to something better. Worship him, it's your only real choice anyway. <3 <3

Use another analogy.

P.S. LOL :biggrin:

[Deus ex Chris]

I do not even think there is a continuity issue here with High Evolutionary, I think when he talked to Beast he just refused to help him.
Nor do I, especially since we don't have a clear sense of his motivation at the moment.
People need to stop ragging on Scott for appropriating Storm and Rachel's decade old ideas. He's like the Obama of the X-Men, clearly only his singularly unique vision and judgement can really lead us to something better. Worship him, it's your only real choice anyway. <3 <3
LOL
ENDORSED!

[Waterlily]

You can have context and continuity without declaring martial law, DDM.

Wenipazhitoon

Exactly. He was given new hope, and that renewed his drive. There isn't even a continuity issue here, which makes this all the more humorous.

http://www.wired.com/images/article/wide/2007/07/assignment_zero_wide.jpg

Minawaanigozi

[LawGiver]

Did we read the same book? or should i quote exact words? the "message" that Emma gave them clearly said good and evil mutants alike.

EXACT Quote time "this message is reaching every known mutant in the world"
"good bad friend whoever you are whenever you are" "and san francisco is now a mutant sanctuary"
Smooth move Ex Lax why don't you just send Magnto and Sinister a stamped envelope.

I stated why it was different. I'm done discussing this with you because it's doing nothing but going downhill.

[LawGiver]

In New Avengers #20, Xorn offered to give Magneto his powers back and save the mutant race. Magneto asked the Avengers to kill him instead of using a agent of genocide to achieve his goals and get back the keystone of his adult identity.

So why is he willing to use agents of genocide now?

The Sentinels are not just big bad robots. They killed 16 million of "his people" on Genosha. It would be like Magneto "using Hitler" to restore the mutant species. He wouldn't use Hitler, Magneto would kill him on sight.

And that ignores the question of: If they are trying to restore the mutant species, why are they at odd with the X-Men in the first place? Why did Magneto need to create such a convoluted set up to distract the X-men? And why is Magneto acting like such an ass during the whole thing?

X-Men: Legacy Magneto, who appeared only a couple months prior, and this guy. Two different people.

I guess we'll just have to read on to find out, or are you one of those people who just refuses to enjoy a good mystery? You snuck down in the middle of the night on Christmas Eve didn't you? You went looking for your birthday presents right?

[pariah-1972]

Error in the sense that it will backfire, yes.
Error in the sense that it shouldn't be done, no.



For going after people that torched babies and got a free pass? Yes, absolutely.



Who said no one would or should try once things start going insanely wrong? I sure as hell didn't. OF COURSE some will wuss out. Sheesh.So did the X-men start killing all the people responsible for Genosha ? besides they got free pass when they were in the middle of destroying the mansion and the kids why stop now?

Maybe we should just stop debating the inane nonsense of Kyle and Yost?

[pariah-1972]

I stated why it was different. I'm done discussing this with you because it's doing nothing but going downhill.No you didn't i just checked you just can't admit when your wrong:rolleyes:

[tetragene]

So did the X-men start killing all the people responsible for Genosha ? besides they got free pass when they were in the middle of destroying the mansion and the kids why stop now?

or maybe after all that they finally decided their old methods were clearly not working & never fully did, so it was high time to do something different about it?