Grant Morrison talks FINAL CRISIS #2

[Sean Walsh]

http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080721-MorrisonFC02.html

....yes, yes, make all the cracks you want about their FC#2 interview with Grant being late... :rolleyes:

Some highlights:


* "Superman Beyond is also where we find out what the ‘red skies’ really mean, and how it all ties in to Warren Ellis’ ideas about ‘The Bleed’ space between universes as well as the origins of the Carrier from The Authority......."

* "Sonny Sumo, who by all rights, went back in time and lived and died in feudal Japan is suddenly running around with a Shilo Norman, who doesn’t remember being Scott Free’s apprentice. What gives?" ([THANK YOU, GRANT.] :smile: )

* "I found myself coming up with an entire ‘Earth 20’ history along with a pretty original idea for an ongoing book I could happily write, all based on one panel image I’d drawn of ‘Doc Fate.’"

* "We’re way past any time where a superhero death can ever be considered final - they even brought back Rita Farr! - and I wanted to show that ‘meta’ funerals would have to acknowledge this. In its own way, this line also foreshadows the book’s conclusion and hints at a major theme which will be played out as the series progresses."

* "That’s Kalibak’s new body - mentioned by Godfrey on the previous page - and we‘ll see it again in issue #4."

* "Only Metron got away because, as Kirby wrote, Metron is ‘something -- different! Something unforeseen!! On New Genesis -- or here!!’ Metron, the god of science, is the key to the resistance in Final Crisis."

Touching on what one of the commenters said there, it's nice that when you read one of these interviews with Grant, we leave a bit happier and more optimistic than before about FINAL CRISIS. :biggrin:

[DarkCrisis]

I left it feeling disgusted. Woopie doo... more pages given to the japanese hero teams no one cares about! Who needs the main stream DC heroes in the big event, right? As long as we get Grants New Gods and Japanese heroes thats all we need. Oh and lets not forget Club Dark Side, cause that's been a great idea so far as well...

[Agent_Torpor]

I left it feeling disgusted. Woopie doo... more pages given to the japanese hero teams no one cares about! ..

Wrong. I think the Japanese superheroes are a kick in the pants to the collective DCU and its relative stagnation in terms of newer characters. Chalk me up as someone who does care.

And if you're not jazzed by a new, mysterious Aquaman, then we frankly have diametrically-opposed tastes.

[Magneto Rocks]

I really do feel far more optimistic, every time. Love all the New God tidbits. It absolutely makes sense that each of the Evil Gods is just a fragment of the overall evil that is Darkseid. (I always saw it as each of them represengint "control" via a different medium- be it religion/media with Godfrey, "love" with Granny, training and discipline with Vunderbar, etc- and then you have Darkseid, who is absolute control.)

Loved the tidbit about Kalibak having a new, feral tiger-man body and there being a reason for the red skies. And I just have to shake my head sometimes when I realise how much Morrison really loves and gets Kirby. Not only did he know exactly how Sonny Sumo last appeared, but the seeming change between them is actually a clue! Around the part where he was quoting Kirby verbotim on Metron... that's around the point when I fell in love. :biggrin:

[Ilash]

I'm loving Final Crisis and these interviews do nothing but booster my enthusiasm for what is shaping up to be one of the smartest most interesting crossover events that I've ever read - if not THE smartest and most interesting. I love that it's tapping into aspects of the DCU beyond the big 7 - or most importantly beyond the big 3 - and that he's actually bothering with coming up with a good, compelling story rather than just something to hand a bunch of fight scenes on.

[Jim Thompson]

In Grant I trust. :biggrin:

[berk]

I really do feel far more optimistic, every time. Love all the New God tidbits. It absolutely makes sense that each of the Evil Gods is just a fragment of the overall evil that is Darkseid. (I always saw it as each of them represengint "control" via a different medium- be it religion/media with Godfrey, "love" with Granny, training and discipline with Vunderbar, etc- and then you have Darkseid, who is absolute control.)

Loved the tidbit about Kalibak having a new, feral tiger-man body and there being a reason for the red skies. And I just have to shake my head sometimes when I realise how much Morrison really loves and gets Kirby. Not only did he know exactly how Sonny Sumo last appeared, but the seeming change between them is actually a clue! Around the part where he was quoting Kirby verbotim on Metron... that's around the point when I fell in love. :biggrin:
Yes, exactly. Morrison continues to demonstrate that he's actually READ and THOUGHT ABOUT the original New Gods stories, which is what lends a high degree of credibility to his Final Crisis as a genuine exploration of the characters and ideas Kirby created. This is precisely what is missing from almost every other recent attempt at reinventing any of Kirby's classic creations, from DC's OMAC or Death of the New Gods to Marvel's Eternals. Unlike the writers and artists responsible for those series, Morrison is able to talk about exactly what in the original he's trying to build on, the ideas he's concerned with, how they're connected to the characters, etc. And he consistently makes specific references to key scenes and dialogue from the original, making clear his understanding of it. None of which you'll ever get from the Knaufs or Neil Gaiman in reference to their Eternals, or from Jim Starlin in his DotNG, or from whoever was responsible for the recent OMAC.

[Seraku]

I like how DC is adding in Wildstorm concepts into the way the multiverse works, as it should now that Wildstorm is one of the 52.

speaking of which, I would be very intrigued to read Ellis write a Planetary story which is post 52, that would a very interesting read.

[Lester C.]

Is it me or is Grant getting a pass by the internet comunity? If it was anyone else that had the problems he's had, some of which were not his fault, then people would be jumping all over him.

[NeoStar9X]

Is it me or is Grant getting a pass by the internet comunity? If it was anyone else that had the problems he's had, some of which were not his fault, then people would be jumping all over him.

Possible. Perhaps it's because it's clear some of the problems with Final Crisis actually aren't his fault that people aren't going crazy. I think it's clearly been said that the reason Final Crisis doesn't mesh with Death of the New Gods and Countdown to Final Crisis isn't due to Morrison but due to DC creating them after he started writing Final Crisis while not paying attention to what he was doing and doing things he said not to do.

I'm just glad I haven't read either of those two lead-ins as I'm about to start reading Final Crisis once the first two issues arrive in the mail. Why DC did what they did when the writer of the event said not to do it or that it wasn't going to work is beyond me. Their desire for a weekly series I guess killed all sort of reason and objectivity. I hope they've learned their lesson but I doubt it. They actually would have been better served to do lead ins in the actual titles, at least in say Justice League or create a shorter title that would have been more managable.

[Jim Thompson]

Is it me or is Grant getting a pass by the internet comunity? If it was anyone else that had the problems he's had, some of which were not his fault, then people would be jumping all over him.I suppose in Morrison's case, if he is getting a pass, it's because he's trusted by the majority of his audience.

[Jeff F]

I'm loving Final Crisis and these interviews do nothing but booster my enthusiasm for what is shaping up to be one of the smartest most interesting crossover events that I've ever read - if not THE smartest and most interesting.

I'd give that title, smartest and most interesting crossover, to Morrison's Seven Soldiers.

I consider Seven Soldiers to be a better New Gods tribute as well.

I've been having a hard time seeing what is interesting about Final Crisis other than the Japanese Super Heroes.

[Sean Walsh]

I'd give that title, smartest and most interesting crossover, to Morrison's Seven Soldiers.

I consider Seven Soldiers to be a better New Gods tribute as well.

I've been having a hard time seeing what is interesting about Final Crisis other than the Japanese Super Heroes.

What he did with the New Gods in 7S really seems like the precursor to what Grant plans to do with the New Gods in FC.

And I think the flat out WIN for Darkseid in the upcoming pages of Final Crisis will make the wait worth it. Just the fact that he takes over Earth before the month break fascinates me.

It'll be like watching Skeletor finally defeating He-Man, or Cobra Commander squashing GI Joe. It won't last - because the good heroes *always* come back and win the war in the end - but damn it's sweet to see the constantly trounced (fairly or not fairly) bad guys get that spotlight they've been working so hard for.

[Dorsai]

Is it me or is Grant getting a pass by the internet comunity? If it was anyone else that had the problems he's had, some of which were not his fault, then people would be jumping all over him.

Most definitely. For example, if you were to substitute JMS' name on the cover for Morrison but left everything EXACTLY as it is, this mini would have already been condemmed.

[Jim Thompson]

Most definitely. For example, if you were to substitute JMS' name on the cover for Morrison but left everything EXACTLY as it is, this mini would have already been condemmed.That's a mighty big "if" there!

[Dorsai]

That's a mighty big "if" there!

I don't think so. Even if this were treated like a "blind taste test" we would see drastically different comments from people. If they had been handed FC #1 and #2 with no credits for the writer, people wouldn't be praising the use of obscure characters without naming them, insisting people wait for the payoff in issue #3 (1/3 through the series), dismissing mismatched continuity, and insisting the series can't be judged until #7 is in the can.

Now if you are suggesting DC wouldn't get JMS to write one of their events, I would probably agree. But I used his name just as an example.

[Jim Thompson]

I don't think so. Even if this were treated like a "blind taste test" we would see drastically different comments from people. If they had been handed FC #1 and #2 with no credits for the writer, people wouldn't be praising the use of obscure characters without naming them, insisting people wait for the payoff in issue #3 (1/3 through the series), dismissing mismatched continuity, and insisting the series can't be judged until #7 is in the can.

Now if you are suggesting DC wouldn't get JMS to write one of their events, I would probably agree. But I used his name just as an example.Honestly, I think a blind taste test approach might yield a couple more complaints -- but by-and-large I think you'd be getting the same sort of general comments overall. It's an interesting story, but it's not going to appeal to all because it's not a standard superhero yarn.

[Joe Rice]

There's also the factor that one of these guys, and I like them both to different degrees, has a history of starting a lot of threads that eventually come together in a very satisfying way. And the other, well, doesn't.

Based on history, I've no problem giving Morrison some leeway.

[CBikle]

I left it feeling disgusted. Woopie doo... more pages given to the japanese hero teams no one cares about! Who needs the main stream DC heroes in the big event, right? As long as we get Grants New Gods and Japanese heroes thats all we need. Oh and lets not forget Club Dark Side, cause that's been a great idea so far as well...

Actually, I found that stuff really interesting; I kind of wish the books were double-sized so that we could get more attention paid to the other story-elements.

[Adam C]

I don't think so. Even if this were treated like a "blind taste test" we would see drastically different comments from people. If they had been handed FC #1 and #2 with no credits for the writer, people wouldn't be praising the use of obscure characters without naming them, insisting people wait for the payoff in issue #3 (1/3 through the series), dismissing mismatched continuity, and insisting the series can't be judged until #7 is in the can.


Yeah I agree that the 'series cannot be judged til #7' is pretty silly. If a person doesn't like the first issues or so then they've found it not to their standards and shouldn't have to make further investment.

On the other hand, what if this wasn't using any existing characters, but entirely new ones. Would we get the same complaints this series has gotten about being confusing? When I looked at the discussion for issue one everyone was demanding to know who Libra was even though he was clearly presented in the context of the story as an enigma. There were complaints that the story didn't explicitly name Anthro, the first boy, even though it wasn't at all necessary to follow his place in the narrative (which was about how the New Gods of New Genesis had been helping humanity along). Or that Kamandi, apparently well known by all who brought up this complaint, wasn't explained either in his appearance at the end of issue one, even though the scene he appeared in was basically presented as a cliff-hanger of sorts indicating that something has gone wrong with time. Based on the comments on issue one I would have believed that Dan Turpin's hunt for the kids was some disjointed, Burroughsesque narrative, rather than a straightforward detective story because they didn't explicitly identify where he was and the progress of time. Yet as far as I can tell that had no impact on following the flow of events.

I'm not going to be a condescending arse and say that comic readers are stupid and want everything spoon-fed, but there was nothing in FC I saw that was out-of-the-ordinary for film, novels, or television in terms of story progression or development. I've even tried to check my appreciation of the series against the weirdo, non-linear fiction I do like, such as Burroughs, but I just can't see why people literally do not understand this series. And it makes me wonder about the expectations that other superhero comics have set up regarding what people expect out of the narrative. So is Morrison getting a pass from his fans, or are his critics judging him according to odd rules that wouldn't be brought up outside of superhero narratives?

(And as for the continuity issue, well the writer is on record as saying that he started this story well before Countdown and gave DC the script for issue one and the outlines for the rest of the series for doing lead-ins, and was well into the story when the key parts of the lead-ins occurred that contradicted FC. No one from the company has contradicted him on that so what else do we have to go on? Granted I freely admit to not giving a flying toss about Countdown and Death of the New Gods. Reading a great work by a writer I like is more important to me than the universe wide continuity of the big two.)

[Dorsai]

Although I disagree quite a bit with the importance of Anthro and Kamandi, I won't rehash any old arguments. However, the last several posts have really done nothing but reinforce the idea that this book is getting a pass from fans because Morrison's name is on the cover. If someone chooses to hold him to a different standard for whatever reason, that is their choice and I don't really have a problem with that. But I really can't see how this book would be praised in the way it is or tolerated in the way it is if it was a differnt writer that put out exactly the same thing.

I suppose the real question for readers is whether or not they believe Morrsion has earned the benefit of the doubt. Having read a large body of his work, my opinion is no. However, that is just my opinion.

[Rio_de_Janeiro]

Although I disagree quite a bit with the importance of Anthro and Kamandi, I won't rehash any old arguments. However, the last several posts have really done nothing but reinforce the idea that this book is getting a pass from fans because Morrison's name is on the cover. If someone chooses to hold him to a different standard for whatever reason, that is their choice and I don't really have a problem with that. But I really can't see how this book would be praised in the way it is or tolerated in the way it is if it was a differnt writer that put out exactly the same thing.

I suppose the real question for readers is whether or not they believe Morrsion has earned the benefit of the doubt. Having read a large body of his work, my opinion is no. However, that is just my opinion.

i don't believe that morrison is getting a "free pass" or having the benefit of the doubt. thinking of a blind test is irrelevant because it's just a mental exercise, and not a good one at that because as a fellow poster has discussed, the non-linearity is not at all as confusing as it is being played out.

Mainstream super hero comics have as a characteristic the "voice" of the author. claremont, moore, morrison, busiek, et al. have recognizable voices from the mannerisms of Chris to the centrifugal creativity of Grant, people (who are part of the comic book reading community) have an idea of what to expect. and, as it has been exhaustively argued in these boards, grant has a very particular style, and this style does not involve obvious explanations.

that's the reason why i think people are not reacting to final crisis the way you are. most people know that this is what grant does, and (IMHO) he is one of the best at what he does (moore and gaiman are up there for me, too).

I wonder how people would react to a claremont story without s&m, expository dialog, mind control and lame character names, or a moore story without all the weird magic stuff (which i also love). if we saw a clear, explained, detailed, continutity-adhering story from grant, we'd probably be ripping it to shreds (not just the detractors, but the fans as well).

those are my 3 cents (inflation, you know...)

cheers,
rio.

[K26dp]

I suppose the real question for readers is whether or not they believe Morrsion has earned the benefit of the doubt. Having read a large body of his work, my opinion is no. However, that is just my opinion.
Yes it is. And yes, a lot of people are willing to see what comes, because of Morrison's track record (for the record, I am one of them).

However, I saw a lot of folks write Final Crisis off as soon as Morrison's name was attached as well, indicating that it would likely be "too weird", too impenatrable, etc. When #1 came along and it wasn't a fairly straight-forward narrative, a lot of these folks started in with the "I told ya so!".

Reality is likely somewhere in between.

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

I'd say people are giving Morrison a pass, and frankly, why shouldn't we? It may very well be true that had another writer's name been on the cover people would be worrying more or even dropping the book, but that's a hypothetical question, and (with all due respect) not really a very interesting one either. It's like saying would you continue reading a novel past page 50 if it didn't say Pynchon or Mann or Hammett or whatever on the cover. The point is that we all know that it's Grant Morrison who's writing this title and that he (independent of wether or not you think he's the greatest comic book writer alive or an incoherent weirdo) has a certain way of telling stories which often implies the pieces falling into place only at the very end of a tale. We know that and so of course you're going to let that come in to play when reading the story.

I also agree with the point of Final Crisis not really being all that hard to follow. I didn't actually even think of it being anything out of the ordinary before reading about how many people found it difficult to follow here.
Anyway, since when was a sense of mystery a bad thing?

[Dorsai]

that's the reason why i think people are not reacting to final crisis the way you are. most people know that this is what grant does, and (IMHO) he is one of the best at what he does (moore and gaiman are up there for me, too).



I have not given any personal reaction to the book in this thread. My comments go directly towards the question of whether or not Morrison's name on this title is deflecting criticism. My thoughts on the book have nothing to do with that. This book is still on my pull list by the way...


Yes it is. And yes, a lot of people are willing to see what comes, because of Morrison's track record (for the record, I am one of them).

However, I saw a lot of folks write Final Crisis off as soon as Morrison's name was attached as well, indicating that it would likely be "too weird", too impenatrable, etc. When #1 came along and it wasn't a fairly straight-forward narrative, a lot of these folks started in with the "I told ya so!".

Reality is likely somewhere in between.

If you are implying that I have a bias AGAINST Morrison, find the book "impenaterable", or find it "too weird", that is not correct. Whether or not the story is too my liking is a different topic. As I mentioned, I own a large body of his work. But to reiterate, my comments go directly to the question of whether or not his name on this prompts a more vigorous defense that it would get otherwise.

But, I am not trying to start an internet argument and really just wanted to chime in on that question. Others disagree. I can live with that.

[K26dp]

If you are implying that I have a bias AGAINST Morrison, find the book "impenaterable", or find it "too weird", that is not correct. Whether or not the story is too my liking is a different topic.
I was implying no such thing.

[Paul McEnery]

That's a mighty big "if" there!

But it's a well-known fact that Stracynzski writes with exactly the same style of dialogue and plotting, with the same intensity of symbolic overlay and attention to detail.

Also, the two of them look so alike that Morrison has to kick Stracynzski out of bed at least twice a week. His missus feels such a fool!

[Jack Zodiac]

Not just any fool, though! The fool that brought us "Babylon 5!"

[jadehorde]

I like how DC is adding in Wildstorm concepts into the way the multiverse works, as it should now that Wildstorm is one of the 52.

speaking of which, I would be very intrigued to read Ellis write a Planetary story which is post 52, that would a very interesting read.

Well I think Cyborg Superman would be interesting to the Snow crew. At least his backstory.

Though of course, Reed would be the really interesting encounter.

[mofo]

grant is a wackjob

and thats a good thing

[GRANT!]

So Morrison says the bodyguards in Page 1 are a cameo. Any idea who those guys are?

[Will.S]

I thought this was interesting as well:

Grant Morrison: Big Science Action were Japan’s greatest heroes once, back in the day, but that day has passed and a new generation is on the scene.

I only really intended to use them for one panel of Final Crisis but at the same time, I figured someone else might be intrigued enough to want to play with them elsewhere in the future, so I had to make sure they were fully-fleshed out, as I do with any of the background characters I create. I also threw in Goraiko, the ‘Nuclear Totoro’ character I created for the Ultramarine Corps back in the JLA days and changed his colour as a little tip of the hat to gray Hulk/green Hulk (speaking of which, I’m surprised no-one noticed the bouncers on the door of the superhero club on Page 1 of Final Crisis #2!)

Makes me want to re-read the Ultramarine Corps stuff although I think a good deal of people have already noticed the homage to that Flash cover using the bouncers. I wouldn't have caught it myself but just saying.

[Adam C]

So Morrison says the bodyguards in Page 1 are a cameo. Any idea who those guy are?

Unless there's a visual reference I'm missing in their designs, which we saw only part of, Boss Darkside calls them "Kalibak" and "Kanto".

Edit: Whoops, wrong panel, and issue even.

[GRANT!]

I thought this was interesting as well:



Makes me want to re-read the Ultramarine Corps stuff although I think a good deal of people have already noticed the homage to that Flash cover using the bouncers. I wouldn't have caught it myself but just saying.

Oh okay. I missed that bit.

[GRANT!]

Unless there's a visual reference I'm missing in their designs, which we saw only part of, Boss Darkside calls them "Kalibak" and "Kanto".

Edit: Whoops, wrong panel, and issue even.

No, there is a big muscular red body guard and a big muscular grey bodyguard in issue 2. In front of the Japanese club.

Man how did I miss that...

[berk]

I can only speak for myself, but I don't see anyone getting a free pass. Personally, I was deeply suspicious of this series when I first heard about it. I didn't (and don't) like Morrison's JLA run and, while I liked his more independent work like the Filth and the Invisibles, I expected Final Crisis to resemble his JLA more than the Vertigo stuff, or even Seven Soldiers, which I also liked. Moreover, I was disgusted with what I'd heard (and was soon to see) of the Death of the New Gods thing that was supposedly leading into FC. I'd also been seriously disappointed with another recent revival of an old Kirby-concept from a similarly high-profile writer, Gaiman's Eternals series at Marvel, so I wasn't exactly in what you'd call a trusting state of mind.

So believe me, far from getting a free pass, it was always going to take a lot of convincing for me to give Final Crisis any kind of a chance at all.

What changed my mind:

Morrison started talking in interviews about the series and about its source, Kirby's Fourth World books, in terms that made it clear that he'd been paying attention to what was going on in those old comics. And I don't mean he just made some vague statements praising "the King's" creativity. People from Marvel and DC say stuff like that all the time and it's totally meaningless. What was different this time was that he made reference to specific scenes and incidents, bits of dialogue, etc, that I had always identified as key moments in those stories, moments where Kirby gave the reader some pretty strong hints about just what he was talking about with all this weirdness. And Morrison did this more than once. In fact, he just did it again in this latest interview, with that Metron quote.

So that got my attention, but it wouldn't have meant a thing on its own. I'd seen Morrison talk well about the New Gods before, and then proceed to write what I see as the usual DCU hero-worship drivel in his JLA stories. So I wasn't won over, yet. But I was interested enough to start paying more attention.

Then I read that far from having anything to do with DotNG, he'd actually asked DC management to refrain from using any of the FW characters for a year or two before FC, because he felt they'd been watered down so much over the years the impact of their role in FC would be compromised by keeping those watered down versions in the readers' imaginations. He also admitted that he'd been among those responsible for some of that watering down. That honesty and self-awareness made me think that there might be a chance for FC to be something other than just another retread of the usual Marvel/DC event series.

Then the sketchbook thing came out, with Morrison's written instructions to the artist. That was a big step: up to now, I'd just been getting interested because of statements in interviews, but this was the first time I'd seen actual evidence that Morrison really was trying to put on the page what he'd been talking about to the comics news-media. It showed me that he really was serious about implementing the things he'd mentioned in those interviews, even though the artist unfortunately didn't follow directions as closely as he might have.

So at this point I decided that I'd at least read the first issue of FC to see if

I did, then the second one, and so far it hasn't disappointed. I won't know what I really think of it until the whole thing is done, but up to this point it's keeping me interested. I'm looking forward to the next issue with great anticipation; which, believe me, is something I never thought I'd be able to say about what's basically a JLA series (a group of characters in which I have little to no interest, individually or collectively).

Free pass? Don't think so. Not from me, anyway, and I don't see any obvious signs of that kind of uncritical thinking from anyone else here who's said they're enjoying the book.

[Will.S]

No, there is a big muscular red body guard and a big muscular grey bodyguard in issue 2. In front of the Japanese club.

Man how did I miss that...
Are the guards supposed to be anyone in particular or is it just a reference to this?

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/1428/400/1428_4_163.jpg

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/12086/400/12086_4_001.jpg

[Paul Newell]

Are the guards supposed to be anyone in particular or is it just a reference to this?
I think it's more that he talks about the Hulk, then you see that there's a big red guy and a big red guy... :)

[Will.S]

I think it's more that he talks about the Hulk, then you see that there's a big red guy and a big red guy... :)
Ahhh, right.

Context is everything lol.

[mofo]

Are the guards supposed to be anyone in particular or is it just a reference to this?

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/1428/400/1428_4_163.jpg


heh...

http://www.silverbulletcomics.com/~jonathan/Quitely/FM.jpg http://www.coverbrowser.com/image/jla/15-1.jpg

[Magneto Rocks]

I didn't give him a free pass. Far from it, in my original posts when Morrison was announcd, I condemned the choice, because I do think Morrison has written some pretty bad thing and totally ignored some characters' histories to fit his view of them etc. He's written a lot of great stuff, but some poor books as well, and I agree, quite often, people do forgive things Morrison does which they wouldn't otherwise, or dismiss complains of bizarre and impenetrable narrative as a lack of understanding.

In this case though, I think many of the complaints are bizarre. I cannot for the life of me see how not knowing who Turpin was made Final Crisis #1 confusing, and that was a complaint I saw frequently, and the same with Libra- particularly Libra, since it was overwhelmingly clear that he was supposed to be completely shrouded in mystery.

So there's a little of both, maybe, in there. Some people are willing to give Morrison a pass on things, unquestionably, but others are looking far too hard for things to criticise.

[Dorsai]

...........

[Rio_de_Janeiro]

I have not given any personal reaction to the book in this thread. My comments go directly towards the question of whether or not Morrison's name on this title is deflecting criticism. My thoughts on the book have nothing to do with that. This book is still on my pull list by the way...



well, to be all technical and crap (which i'm not, but i'll be just for the fun of it), asking that question IS a personal reaction. due to your personal questions and observations about the readership of comics, etc. you had A reaction.

when i said that not every one reacted the way you did (not even worrying about the fact of having grant's name on the cover) i was not totally in the wrong.

BUT i am just kidding...this is one of those silly arguments fans start building in comic book boards in order to have the last word and be "right".

I understand your comment better now and understand that you had a genuine question and were not inflamming. the thread came with an inertia and i misunderstood your idea.

cheers.
rio.

[carabas]

I do give Morrison a pass. It's not a free one though, it's one that he's rightfully earned by providing me with some of my favourite stories over the years.

Or at least, I would have if I hadn't thoroughly enjoyed Final Crisis #1. He'll be needing it for when, if ever, W.I.L.D.Cats #2 materialises though. The first issue really didn't do anything for me.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

I do give Morrison a pass. It's not a free one though, it's one that he's rightfully earned by providing me with some of my favourite stories over the years.

Or at least, I would have if I hadn't thoroughly enjoyed Final Crisis #1. He'll be needing it for when, if ever, W.I.L.D.Cats #2 materialises though. The first issue really didn't do anything for me.

W.I.L.DCats #2 ain't happening.

Christo Gage has taken over the post-Number of the Beast WildCats book, which I believe is Wildcats: World's End, or something like that.

[carabas]

Last I heard, Morrison was still going to do them. I don't really care much either way.
DC has effectively killed my interest in what used to be my favourite superhero universe.

[misterbonesy]

The Japanese super-heroes will be forgotten as soon as FC is over. And a "mysterious new Aquaman"? Yawn... Howzabout dealing with the two Aquamans already out there? And the Tiger-man is Kalibak? That sure seems forced. COUNTDOWN is looking better and better in retrospect.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Last I heard, Morrison was still going to do them. I don't really care much either way.
DC has effectively killed my interest in what used to be my favourite superhero universe.

Have faith in Christo and co... They took an extremely bad situation and made the best of it. Seriously, I'm loving what WS has been bringing out recently.

[carabas]

Sorry. I gave it a try, but Gage has failed to entertain me. he's not bad, just not my cup of tea.
And on the whole, the Wildstorm universe seems incredibly watered down since the days of the Ellis/Millar Authority, the Casey Wildcats, Stormwatch Team Achiles, Sleeper, Planetary...

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Sorry. I gave it a try, but Gage has failed to entertain me. he's not bad, just not my cup of tea.
And on the whole, the Wildstorm universe seems incredibly watered down since the days of the Ellis/Millar Authority, the Casey Wildcats, Stormwatch Team Achiles, Sleeper, Planetary...

Even though I'm still reading, I agree with you.

[Jack Zodiac]

The Japanese super-heroes will be forgotten as soon as FC is over. And a "mysterious new Aquaman"? Yawn... Howzabout dealing with the two Aquamans already out there? And the Tiger-man is Kalibak? That sure seems forced. COUNTDOWN is looking better and better in retrospect.

Ridiculous hyperbole, or most ridiculous hyperbole?

[Will.S]

Ridiculous hyperbole, or most ridiculous hyperbole?
I think misterbonesy is most ridiculously insane.

[CBikle]

The Japanese super-heroes will be forgotten as soon as FC is over.

Maybe, and that's too bad; I thought they were interesting.

And a "mysterious new Aquaman"? Yawn... Howzabout dealing with the two Aquamans already out there?

Hmm. FC was written awhile back and maybe the original Aquaman was supposed to have been brought back from the dead and reintroduced by the time that FC was supposed to hit the stands ? I know that Meltzer also had Aquaman in one of his final issues of JLA; maybe something happened or didn't happen ?

COUNTDOWN is looking better and better in retrospect.

No no no no no no...Countdown was, is and might very well always be the worst crossover title ever printed. That thing has done so much damage on so many levels and it's been months since it wrapped up and it's still ruining other books (like Final Crisis).

[Faustic Caust]

You know, it occurred to me that if the multiverse gets involved, then a possible solution to this evil winning thing is the Crime Syndicate. Morrison made a big deal in JLA: Earth 2 of the fact that on their earth, they're tops because evil's supposed to win, and on the Justice League's earth, the converse was true. Well, it's not true anymore ...

[Sean Walsh]

Hmm. FC was written awhile back and maybe the original Aquaman was supposed to have been brought back from the dead and reintroduced by the time that FC was supposed to hit the stands ? I know that Meltzer also had Aquaman in one of his final issues of JLA; maybe something happened or didn't happen?

It's my understanding that this new Aquaman was slowly reverting into the old Aquaman.

No idea how that's possible (I gave up on SWORD OF ATLANTIS as Tad Williams was about to take over), but perhaps the original Aquaman (who turned into the Dweller thanks to 52 and WW3) transfered part of his essense or soul to the new guy before he was killed?

[fly on the wall]

Yes, exactly. Morrison continues to demonstrate that he's actually READ and THOUGHT ABOUT the original New Gods stories, which is what lends a high degree of credibility to his Final Crisis as a genuine exploration of the characters and ideas Kirby created. This is precisely what is missing from almost every other recent attempt at reinventing any of Kirby's classic creations, from DC's OMAC or Death of the New Gods to Marvel's Eternals. Unlike the writers and artists responsible for those series, Morrison is able to talk about exactly what in the original he's trying to build on, the ideas he's concerned with, how they're connected to the characters, etc. And he consistently makes specific references to key scenes and dialogue from the original, making clear his understanding of it. None of which you'll ever get from the Knaufs or Neil Gaiman in reference to their Eternals, or from Jim Starlin in his DotNG, or from whoever was responsible for the recent OMAC.

I don't know. The New Gods should work, the potential for greatness is obviously there but for some reason no one, certainly not Kirby or Morrison, has ever been able to get these characters to work as a valid entertainment experience.

I kind of liked Death of the New Gods because it finally put these characters out of their misery, but then almost immediately Morrison brings them back to life and instantly kills one (Orion). It's all very disconcerting and confusing especially having Orion die again right after he's just been killed. The back-to-back killing of Orion makes death in the DCU even more meaningless then it already was.

[ultramandingo]

...... " Darkseid’s son will lead a squad of tiger-men into battle in issue #5, and that’s where he’ll be running into poor old Tawky Tawny (who first appears in #3). "

- bwah! wait till the " i dont get it " types who couldnt deal with anthro or kamandi get a load of Tawky Tawny !

[berk]

I don't know. The New Gods should work, the potential for greatness is obviously there but for some reason no one, certainly not Kirby or Morrison, has ever been able to get these characters to work as a valid entertainment experience.I find Kirby's experiment works well for me not only as entertainment, but as something more interesting, more ambitious than just pure entertainment, Sure there are flaws - that's what you get when you take a chance and try to do something new, something innovative, somehting other than just a variation on every other comic out there.

But I think you're on to something. You're right in one respect: the New Gods never worked in the sense superhero fans expected them to work, which was as more superheroes, functioning just as did all the other superhero characters they were used to. So yeah, they never did make very satisfactory superheroes, which is indeed the main reason for their lack of popularity. The thing is, they were never meant to be superheroes in the first place. But fans never were able to get their heads around that idea, nor were most of the writers who tried their hand with them after Kirby.

I kind of liked Death of the New Gods because it finally put these characters out of their misery, but then almost immediately Morrison brings them back to life and instantly kills one (Orion). It's all very disconcerting and confusing especially having Orion die again right after he's just been killed. The back-to-back killing of Orion makes death in the DCU even more meaningless then it already was.IWO, you liked Starlin's series because it got rid of some characters you thought never worked well in the first place. Well, in that regard, you're completely in tune with Starlin and DC management, so you were an ideal audience for that series.

But the point's been made ad nauseum here that Morrison had already had his story planned and written before anyone even decided there would be a Death of lead-in series, so the responsibility or the lack of cohesion between Death and FC is the fault of DC management. Morrison's idea was to have a complete moratorium (his word) on any New Gods appearances for a year or two before the first issue of FC.

[carabas]

Morrison's idea was to have a complete moratorium (his word) on any New Gods appearances for a year or two before the first issue of FC.

Clueless DC editor #1: "Ummm... What's a moratororium thingy?"
Clueless DC editor #2: "I dunno. I think maybe he wants us to kill them."
Clueless DC editor #1 lights up: "Ah. Killing characters. THAT we can do!"

[Sean Walsh]

...... " Darkseid’s son will lead a squad of tiger-men into battle in issue #5, and that’s where he’ll be running into poor old Tawky Tawny (who first appears in #3). "

- bwah! wait till the " i dont get it " types who couldnt deal with anthro or kamandi get a load of Tawky Tawny !

Tawky Tawny was actually (and nicely, I thought) revamped in the recent TRIALS OF SHAZAM maxiseries.

.....of course I'm assuming some DC editor forgot about that and as a result we get the classic goofy Tawky getting thrashed by Kalibak and pals.

(I'm a pessimist at heart, dammit.)

[Superboy-Prime]

^^ I wouldn't blame them. That was a horrible mini.