X-Writers From The Beginning 1: Stan Lee

[Hi-Fi]

http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/4996/stanleerh3.jpg

Stan Lee is considered by a lot of fans the X-Men's father, along with artist Jack Kirby. In fact, Lee created the concept of the book and some of the most famous characters from the whole franchise, including Professor X, Cyclops, Jean Grey, Angel, Iceman, Beast, Magneto, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver and Juggernaut.

Even though Lee's X-Men run wasn't as successful as his runs in other Marvel books at the time, he layed down the ground for decades of adventures that would attract tons of readers to the mutants world.

Stan Lee wrote The X-Men from issue #1 to issue #19.

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/7742/thexmen1hz4.jpg

To start the discussion, here are some topics for each of you to give your personal opinion on:

* Best thing about Stan Lee's writing.
* Worst thing about Stan Lee's writing.
* Favorite characters created by Stan Lee on his X-Men run.
* Worst characters created by Stan Lee on his X-Men run.
* All-time favorite issue of Stan Lee's run.
* Final thoughts on the run's importance to the X-Men Mythos.

Please, let's not turn this series of threads in a case of creator bashing! Let's criticize their work in a polite, civil way!

Next writer: Roy Thomas

[Pach!]

I haven't actually read his issues Hiffy. you should answer your own questions first.

Tho I like all the 05, Xavier and Magneto..even if the characters have evolved a lot since then.

[pryde15]

I found Lee's run kind of dull. It wasn't because he was a bad writer, but every storyline was practically the same. They just fought the brotherhood over and over again.

[xgeek52]

lee's writing was brilliant along with kirby's art...although if you compare it to the writers today it was/is pedestrian...

but what he did, claremont, byrne, cockrum, kelly/seagle, morrison, lee, bachalo, ellis, burbaker, and the others could not have created the masterpiece that is the x-men...

[Quinnhop]

I've never read it, but, while I imagine it was only decent at best, I appreciate it for what it did. And what it did is create the best franchise in Comic Book History.

[Siddon]

My opinion was that the X-men was Stan's second worst work behind the Avengers. Stan first few issues where very rough, The Vanisher, Unus, Namor, Kazar, Lucifer and Magneto issues were very poor. I think Stan's biggest weakness was his characterization of Magneto, he was written as sort of a second rate Doctor Doom, he reminded me of Lost in Spaces Dr. Smith. With that said he did have several good ideas and issues in his run once he stopped doing done in ones and started doing multiple part stories. The Stranger was very offbeat and ironic character whom hit a few decent notes for me. The idea of an Alien deciding between Magneto and Xavier and upon victory sending Magneto to space was both a trippy and fun story. The first Juggernaut story is a classic, its first part is almost a homage to High Noon , the final arc he told (I believe his last story was a Sentinal 2-parter) was very Doctor Who esque but also touched on the themes of the series.

My all time favorite issue was the first issue with the Juggernaut destorying the Mansion as the team prepares to battle him, while Xavier goes into his origin. My favorite characters Stan Lee created were Scarlet Witch, Juggernaut, Mimic, Iceman, and Beast. My least favorite creations where Magneto and Jean Grey two character who were much improved under other writers but not well written under Stan Lee. The best part of Stan Lee's writing during this era was that it was very dense, he put a lot of facts and ideas into each story. The worst part of Stan's writing was his characterization and narrative voice of the main characters, the majority of the characters come off as being one dimensional.

Most people are going to praise Stan Lee for creating the X-men. And Stan Lee does desearve a massive amount of praise but I think he should have never written the X-men. The ideas where good, but the execution (the first year in particular was poor). In a lot of ways I think its the poor quality of those first 10 issues caused the title to never be a huge hit and to later be cancelled.

I hope that doesn't come off as bashing Lee, its not my intent. Its only years later after reading Stan Lee's work in Captain America, Spider-man, Fantastic Four, Shield, and Doctor Strange I realize his skill as a writer. Those were amazing comics and runs, this was not.

[ExodusCloak]

Stan not only created the later bit of the O6 but also the Sentinels, the Juggernaut, Unus, Toad, the Blob, Scarlet Witch, Quicksilver, Wyngarde and Magneto he built the foundations for X-Men. His run is without doubt important.
That said there's a few things about the run that I found hilarious.
The way the later part of the O6 treat Jean was just funny in an awkward sense. I think Beast calls her wench in issue 17, then there's a scene where Scott is quite stern and tells her to be quiet. She's also pretty much treated like a house wife. Anytime there's a chore she automatically assumes it's her duty to do it like when she tells Bobby IRRC that he shouldn't wet the floor because she'll have to mop it. And to top it all off her Danger Room training involved threading yarn and she was the embodiment of the saying " just another pretty face", she was for that run clueless, Beast also took frequent snipes at her intelligence.
As for Xavier I don't know if it was intentional but he came across quite sinister, mind wiping people left and right not to mention that he also came across as quite lazy.
Lee's run makes me smile everytime I read it but it's not for the right reasons.
Can't say I ever liked Lucifer though.

[Affinity]

Kirby's art is a fucking, wonder. I kind of wish we got more typically out-there Kirby designs but I'm guessing this was early Kirby?

The stories feel very, very dated and it's almost kind of like we're not meant to see these stories, in a sense that they may seem asburd in today's comic industry, but at the end of the day they're CLASSICS. So I can't even be like HURRRHURRRR FAILLLL because it's the very beginning.

I can be like HURRRHURRR FAIL as we move along this series.

[The Thunderbird]

He established the first foundations for the X-World such as the school, the mutant race, the X-Men themselves, and the Brotherhood, how people treat mutants, etc. In my opinion that makes him as important as Claremont. Then again seeing as how he created my favorite characters, I could just be biased.

[xgeek52]

since this is x-writers from the beginning, lemme ask you something...

who was reading the book when it was published...

i know i was -- but i wanna know who else...

[Hi-Fi]

I agree that his ideas and concepts were definitely better than his execution. I mean, I absolutely adore Professor X and the original team, Magneto and the Brotherhood, Juggernaut and The Sentinels, but the stories often read the same. There was not really a sense of progression, like in his Amazing Spider-Man run, even though some events and characters re-appearances hinted that the saga was slowly moving forward.

I think Stan's best quality was the freshness of his ideas. He'd put stuff in the comics that were so out there and he would put it without fear of it looking over the top or not.

His dialogue and character development were poor, though. Jean was the one who suffered the most with that, I'd say.

He created some of my all-time favorite characters, including the original five and Magneto, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch and The Juggernaut. My favorite story was the Juggernaut/ Sentinels arc (I like to think it was all one big arc).

[xgeek52]

y'know i gotta agree with you hi-fi...his character development was weak -- especially when it came to jean...but when it came to the stories consider the era...they were suppose to be a different type of super-heroes but read their stories and read the others lee and marvel put out...

there's not that much difference...

[KiplingKat]

Yeah, but compared to what DC was doing, the "humanized superhero" was revolutionary.

That why I find it very hard to judge Stan's early X-Men work. It's Silver Age, a completely different approach to comics. I mean it all reads hokey to us now, but back then it was revolutionary.

He did create the X-Men and the concept of mutants and their relationship to the human species, even if he did do it because he was basically lazy and didn't want to have to come up with a bunch of radioactive spiders and the like.:wink: It was a clever idea that he and later writers have developed far past it's original intent.

Silver Age characterization and dialog just reads horrible to me today, so I can't judge that fairly. Xavier does read as a dick to us, but back then he was just playing out the "shadowy mentor role" that was very common in not only comics, but fiction of the time. It's hard to be objective about it.

But I will say that Stan did over use Magneto and the Brotherhood in his run, they show up in half of the comics.

But given the fact he literally laid the foundation for a franchise that has lasted so long, and has become so wildly successful, I am willing to forgive him that foible.

[Hi-Fi]

From the "Ultimate X-Men" book:

"Suddenly, an idea hit me; an idea that was simplicity itself and which guaranteed I'd never have to worry about explaining the origin of a superpower again!

It hit me when I thought of the word "mutant." We all know that mutations occur in nature. (...) And the beautiful thing about such mutations is they don't require any explanation. They can happen to anyone. Once I decided that our little cast of characters would have mutant powers, the rest was simplicity itself. I merely had to decide who our team would be and who would lead it.

For their leader, I thought it would be interesting to have a man who was seemingly the weakest of all, a man in a weelchair. But that man, Professor Charles Xavier, would have incredible mental powers and would be able to mold the others into a formidable fighting team. For sheer strenght, I created the Beast; but once again, to go against the usual cliché, I made him the most literate and eloquent of all the team. Then, having always liked the Fantastic Four's Human Torch, I thought it would be fun for our new group to include his exact opposite, Iceman. Add the winged, flying Angel, the telekinetically powered Marvel Girl, and the somewhat tragic Cyclops, who always had to wear special eyeglasses to shield his deadly eye beams, and you had the original X-Men - a far cry from the countless new and fantastic members that have been constantly added to the world's most colorful cast of characters ever since those early days.


Another character I was always extremely fond of was the villain Magneto. I felt that his mastery of magnetism was one of the most interesting powers of all. And I'll admit to having a soft spot in my heart for the Blob, Juggernaut and the Toad as well."

[LawGiver]

I would be curious to find someone who didn't think Stan Lee was the father of the X-Men?

[worstblogever]

The man made Xavier, 05, Brotherhood, and Juggernaut.

Just think about that. Every time they've clashed... it all comes back to Stan. Sure the characterizations may come off as odd, (particularly Jean) but the foundation of the entire franchise starts here. Every classic character, right out of "The Man"'s mind.

Wouldn't have it any other way.

[david r]

* Best thing about Stan Lee's writing.

All the innovative characters and ideas! Those first 19 issues by Stan is PACKED FULL with concepts and new heroes/villains left and right! I give Jack Kirby tremendous credit too for this; but this run justifies Stan's place as a creative dynamo!

* Worst thing about Stan Lee's writing.

I'm going to say the repetitiveness of dialogue. How many times do we hear the students say "Glad I spent hours and hours training in the Danger Room."
How many times do Scott and Jean think how they secretly love each other. Stan played several themes over and over again that it became silly after awhile?

* Favorite characters created by Stan Lee on his X-Men run.

God, that's difficult to choose. It's like choosing between your kids. But at the end of the day......I think Magneto actually is the one that resonates with me the most to this day. For the incredible changes he goes through! :smile:

* Worst characters created by Stan Lee on his X-Men run.

Either Unus the Untouchable or Lucifer. Lucifer at least has the claim for paralyzing Charles Xavier---so he gets one over Unus who was a pretty bland villain IMO. My answer: Unus.

* All-time favorite issue of Stan Lee's run.

Another touch call. I would go with X-Men #16. The final battle in the very first Sentinels saga, and I feel the pinnacle of Stan Lee's X-Men run. That 3-parter showed more seriousness and action than the earlier Lee writing. It was more in keeping with modern X-Men epics, and Stan's best chapter of his run.

* Final thoughts on the run's importance to the X-Men Mythos.

I could go on for awhile about this, but nobody wants to read that! Nearly EVERYTHING you'll find in X-Men NOW, you can find in Stan Lee's 19-issue run. So many ideas and concepts are laid in our laps here, that other writers pick up on, that Lee should get TREMENDOUS CREDIT for the X-Men's success. Without him and Kirby, we wouldn't have any X-Men book and that's a fact.

This run really grows on you. I sense younger readers give Stan respect for creating X-MEN, but don't much care about reading this run. Yes, dialogue is old-fashioned, but this was 40 years ago! You have to take it in perspective. This is a remarkable run for it's creativity and excitement.

[Siddon]

I would be curious to find someone who didn't think Stan Lee was the father of the X-Men?

I do, the Silver Age book is drastically different from the rest of the series, Stan Lee had a lot of ideas but almost every single one of them had to be re-tooled drastically and quickly by Thomas (Magneto/structure), Wein (The Team), Claremont (self-explained). No other major book Stan Lee created needed to be re-done as much as X-men.

[david r]

I do, the Silver Age book is drastically different from the rest of the series, Stan Lee had a lot of ideas but almost every single one of them had to be re-tooled drastically and quickly by Thomas (Magneto/structure),

You liked Roy Thomas' first run (#20-42) better than Stan Lee's? Compare the characters Lee created to Thomas' first run. Lee made many more lasting stuff, IMO.

No other major book Stan Lee created needed to be re-done as much as X-men.

With all respect, that might be true. But those other major books Stan stayed on a lot longer. His X-run was short, and I think it was more the early Thomas/Arnold Drake issues that sunk the book. But that's just my own take on it. :smile:

[Siddon]

You liked Roy Thomas' first run (#20-42) better than Stan Lee's? Compare the characters Lee created to Thomas' first run. Lee made many more lasting stuff, IMO.

I liked both of Roy Thomas's runs on the book more then Stan Lee. Remember Thomas came back (with Claremont as an assitant) (56-66) in those issues Thomas remade the Sentinals, and told the first version of Magneto I and most would consider to be the first real version of the character. I can't argue with the creation point, and I didn't, for me its not about coming up with the idea's it's about doing them well, which I don't feel Lee did.

Thomas is also my favorite Silver Age writer, and his second X-men run is my number 1 X-run of all time.


With all respect, that might be true. But those other major books Stan stayed on a lot longer. His X-run was short, and I think it was more the early Thomas/Arnold Drake issues that sunk the book. But that's just my own take on it. :smile:

I don't think Drake and Thomas killed the series, it was never a big hit (which was Lee's fault) but they also expanded the Marvel line in 1968. As a matter of fact Thomas can be credited with ressurecting the book, there would be no X-men without Thomas, it was his first run that was reprinted and it was those reprint's that found the audience that brought the title back.

I understand why people love Stan Lee but after reading the issues I think that love is 40% admiration, 40% nostalgia, 20% quality.

[Valjean999]

While he deserves all the credit and praise in the world for creating this wonderful universe we get to escape to, I am of the opinion that he is a terrible writer. Great plots, and great characters, sure...but the writing? Not so much. For the time period, I'm sure it was okay.

[david r]

This thread got me to grab my old Stan Lee issues out. One thing I noticed from Stan was how Charles Xavier was CONSTANTLY inventing new devices. Xavier was quite the inventor, and we never see that anymore from him.

And of course, the passage where Xavier thinks his unrequited love for Jean Grey has been discussed at great length. Did Stan really think that would go over?

I enjoyed the innocent fun of the first students. I loved how they played pranks on each other, and goofed off and did horseplay. It was a more innocent time.

[david r]

Another interesting tidbit about Stan Lee's run. He was planning to say Charles Xavier and Magneto were brothers. I'm not sure what I think of that....but it would have changed X-MEN for sure. :smile:

[Novaya Havoc]

Stan Lee is really old.

I haven't read any of his stuff outside of X-Men #1. And in that issue, Professor X had a pedo-crush on Jean Grey.

Since I was born in '84, which is totally 21 years later than '63, I cannot comment any further than I have.

[Flinkman]

growing up on modern comics & then retroactively reading the classic stuff, Stan Lee's writing is (as many of you predicted) not to my tastes. however, the "hated & feared" aspect drew a sort of real-world parallel with the civil rights movement of the time & i agree that it had to be revolutionary at the time. so props to Stan for that at least.

* Favorite characters created by Stan Lee on his X-Men run.
Cyclops, Juggernaut, Angel, Jean Grey, Iceman, Magneto, Scarlet Witch & the Blob

* Worst characters created by Stan Lee on his X-Men run.
probably the Stranger. i just really didn't care for that issue, was it ever explained how Magneto & Toad got back or how Mastermind reverted back from stone? i can't remember. Unus, Lucifer & the Vanisher aren't far behind either.

* All-time favorite issue of Stan Lee's run.
i think i probably like #'s 12-16 equally. those are the ones that gave us the backstory on Xavier/Juggernaut & the Sentinels.

* Final thoughts on the run's importance to the X-Men Mythos.
considering how many of the characters from Stan's run are still prominent today, i'd say it's very important. the ideas maybe less so because Magneto is a completely different type of villain, the team is renowned for being internationally diverse and greater changes in the mutant status quo have occurred....but in the grand scheme of things, i'd still place it in my top 5 most important X-Runs.

[david r]

was it ever explained how Magneto & Toad got back or how Mastermind reverted back from stone?

Yes, it is explained. Magneto gets back to Earth easily, leaving on a spacecraft. He kicks poor Toad away and leaves him though. :mad: Mastermind reveals how he reverted back to normal in a story outside of X-MEN. But I can't recall where.

* All-time favorite issue of Stan Lee's run.
i think i probably like #'s 12-16 equally. those are the ones that gave us the backstory on Xavier/Juggernaut & the Sentinels.

Those are my favorite Stan Lee/X-Men tales also.

I wouldn't rank Stan in my Top 5. But still, I like his run for what it is. The roots of the X-Men are all there.

[Leocomix]

Kirby was clearly a co-writer even if uncredited. The theme of opposing uber-humans is one of his favorite themes.

[Sentinel K]

I've never read any pre GSXM #1 X-Men and I really don't have much desire to either, although I appreciate Lee's work in GIVING us the X-men to begin with.

[Flinkman]

I wouldn't rank Stan in my Top 5. But still, I like his run for what it is. The roots of the X-Men are all there.
he's probably not even in my top 10 favorites writers, but as far as his importance to the mythos...it'd be criminal if he wasn't in the top 5 of that list.

[david r]

Kirby was clearly a co-writer even if uncredited. The theme of opposing uber-humans is one of his favorite themes.

I absolutely agree with you. Jack Kirby had a big impact on those early X-Men adventures. Jack should not be forgotten.

I've never read any pre GSXM #1 X-Men and I really don't have much desire to either, although I appreciate Lee's work in GIVING us the X-men to begin with.


I would recommend the Lee/Kirby issues (#1-19) just so you can experience the very beginning. (You can get them all in one cheap Essential. ) Also, #55-64 is excellent work, from Roy Thomas/Neal Adams. The first truly GREAT era of the X-Men, IMO.

he's probably not even in my top 10 favorites writers, but as far as his importance to the mythos...it'd be criminal if he wasn't in the top 5 of that list.

Stan "The Man" was hugely important, even if people forget all about his run. Virtually everything you'll find later, even decades later, is found somewhere in Lee's run.