Retcon megathread

[Captain Mobra]

As ugly as I think it is and as frustrating as I find retcons for their own sakes, a pretty monstrous retcon is probably coming down on your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman very soon. Probably wiping at least the fact that the world knows Peter Parker is Spiderman or possibly as much as Pete's marriage to Mary Jane. Either in One More Day or maybe even in the aftermath.

So I'd like to hear some ideas on how to pull this off respectably or just some basic musings and opinions on massive retcons of this nature.

[Sean Whitmore]

Just so we're clear, the term "retcon" is incorrect here.

If Doctor Strange wiped Peter's identity from the memory of everyone on earth, it wouldn't be a retcon. If Mary Jane lost her memory tomorrow, and as a result wasn't married to Peter anymore, that wouldn't be a retcon. There's nothing retroactive about it. Because those stories where the world knew Peter's identity and MJ was married to him still "happened."

This message has been brought to you by the Foundation of Comic Terminology.


SEAN

[Captain Mobra]

Just so we're clear, the term "retcon" is incorrect here.

If Doctor Strange wiped Peter's identity from the memory of everyone on earth, it wouldn't be a retcon. If Mary Jane lost her memory tomorrow, and as a result wasn't married to Peter anymore, that wouldn't be a retcon. There's nothing retroactive about it. Because those stories where the world knew Peter's identity and MJ was married to him still "happened."

This message has been brought to you by the Foundation of Comic Terminology.


SEAN
Well, what is the correct term for that scenario?

[Mister Mets]

One possibility.

Spider-Man asks Doctor Strange to change history so people don't remember his identity. Doctor Strange had done something similar when he made the world forget about the Sentry, but he refuses to change the world this time arguing that the risk is too great.

Loki arrives, with new reality warping powers similar to the Loki in Ultimates 2 (keep in mind JMS is handling the Thor relaunch, which gives him complete control over the new Loki.) He reminds Spider-Man that he owes the hero a favor from an earlier JMS two-parter, and will subtly remake the world so that no one ever knew Peter Parker was Spider-Man. Peter is ambivalent about this, until Loki informs him that this remaking can not undo an actual death. If Peter waits too long, his poor Aunt May will die on life support and therefore won't be alive in the remade world.

Peter agrees and the world is remade, probably at the moment Aunt May recovers from her injuries and Tony Stark gets a full pardon for Spider-Man.

Loki's plan was successful. No one remembers Peter Parker's identity. Unfortunately this includes Mary Jane Watson, who never learned that Peter Parker was Spider-Man, and therefore never married him. In the end, Peter's left with the memories and experiences from three worlds: the Son of M world, the world where he was married to MJ, and the new one.

As none of the writers are returning to the Spider-Man books, this would probably pave the way for a complete relaunch of the line as this is a bigger change to creative teams/ the status quo than the Mackie/ Byrne reboot. Amazing Spider-Man would probably be the only title to keep its name. One possibility would be to make it a weekly book with rotating creative teams.
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showpost.php?p=2394448&postcount=60

Future stories would reference the pre-One More Day continuity a lot less, the same way current comics don't really reference anything between the return of Peter Parker's parents and Paul Jenkins's first issues.

[Brand]

This wouldn't work for one simple reason. I've heard a lot of complaints about the decrease in Spidey's supporting cast. If what you propose is even remotely close to the truth, that MJ would forget that she even knows Peter, then everyone would forget that they knew Peter. Jonah, Flash, the Fantastic Four... every character he's interacted with and built relationships with over the past 40 years would no longer have any knowledge of their friendship. I don't know about you, but that's one the few things other than the dissolution of the marriage that would make me walk away from 616 Spidey for good.

[darkhawk76]

Well, what is the correct term for that scenario?

plot device

[Mister Mets]

This wouldn't work for one simple reason. I've heard a lot of complaints about the decrease in Spidey's supporting cast. If what you propose is even remotely close to the truth, that MJ would forget that she even knows Peter, then everyone would forget that they knew Peter. Jonah, Flash, the Fantastic Four... every character he's interacted with and built relationships with over the past 40 years would no longer have any knowledge of their friendship. I don't know about you, but that's one the few things other than the dissolution of the marriage that would make me walk away from 616 Spidey for good.
Quick clarification.

In my scenario MJ/ Jonah/ etc would still remember Peter Parker. They just wouldn't remember that he's Spider-Man.

[Brand]

Quick clarification.

In my scenario MJ/ Jonah/ etc would still remember Peter Parker. They just wouldn't remember that he's Spider-Man.

But if MJ remembers Peter, why shouldn't they stay married? If it's because she would be in danger, then there's no reason for Peter to ever date again. Does anyone want to read about a Spider-Man who goes through life alone and miserable?

And there are some people, like Felicia, that I happen to like knowing Peter's identity. It's good that he has close friends he can turn to when he's in trouble. Regardless of what she's doing with Fireheart, I'm betting if she had to choose between the two Cat would pick Peter over any guy she's ever been with. Taking away the knowledge of Peter's identity would completely destroy that relationship.

[The Shelf]

You know, would it really be a bad thing if everyone Peter knew forgot he existed? I mean, seriously, it would force them to give Peter a brand new supporting cast with possibly a couple of the original supporting cast members, but his relationship with the originals would be different since he would have to reintroduce himself to them. I think it could be really cool and offer some excellent new story ideas if the entire world forgot Peter even existed. But I know how much comic fans on this board hate change, so maybe this is the wrong place to support such an idea...

[Brand]

You know, would it really be a bad thing if everyone Peter knew forgot he existed? I mean, seriously, it would force them to give Peter a brand new supporting cast with possibly a couple of the original supporting cast members, but his relationship with the originals would be different since he would have to reintroduce himself to them. I think it could be really cool and offer some excellent new story ideas if the entire world forgot Peter even existed. But I know how much comic fans on this board hate change, so maybe this is the wrong place to support such an idea...

I don't have a problem with change, but you have to be careful just what you do to the character. If you don't like the supporting cast, there are other Spidey books out there. If you don't like Spider-Man being married, try USM. Or SMLMJ. Or MASM. There are almost as many books now with an unmarried Spider-Man as there are with a married one.

I'm all for expanding Spidey's supporting cast. It's been shrinking for far too long. But if this plan-or a similar one goes through-it will fundamentally alter his relationship with people like the Black Cat and Human Torch. We've already seen those older stories where he introduced himself to those superheroes--they wouldn't be anything new, just old retreads.

[MythicBrawn]

The Loki scenario sounds plausible. A simple reality warp and no one knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. As long as it's not something stupid like, "No More Memory of Peter Parker as Spider-Man." I don't see why MJ and PP couldn't stay married. If anything they would be on the brink of divorce due to Peter's constant unexplained disappearances. Or, maybe they are explained but not very well. DC did something similar with the Flash. I don't know if it stuck but it could work.

[The Shelf]

I don't have a problem with change, but you have to be careful just what you do to the character. If you don't like the supporting cast, there are other Spidey books out there. If you don't like Spider-Man being married, try USM. Or SMLMJ. Or MASM. There are almost as many books now with an unmarried Spider-Man as there are with a married one.

I'm all for expanding Spidey's supporting cast. It's been shrinking for far too long. But if this plan-or a similar one goes through-it will fundamentally alter his relationship with people like the Black Cat and Human Torch. We've already seen those older stories where he introduced himself to those superheroes--they wouldn't be anything new, just old retreads.

Well, to clarify, I have no problem whatsoever with the status quo. I like the current book, and I couldn't care less what happens to the marriage. If they stay married, great, if they don't, great. All I'm saying is that if absolutely everyone who knew Peter and/or Spider-man forgot he existed, it wouldn't be a bad thing. As you say, his supporting cast has been dwindling, so why not completely remove it and built it back up again from scratch?

Also, it appears you're contradicting yourself. First you say that his relationship to characters like Black Cat and Human Torch would be altered, but then you say it wouldn't be anything new... Personally, I don't think it would be retreading old ground at all because (hopefully) those old supporting cast members' personalities have changed since Peter first met them. If he reintroduced himself to JJ, do you think they'd have the exact same relationship they had before? Peter's significantly older now than he was, and who knows, JJ may respect him more now while Peter may be the one to act like a jerk toward him since he still remembers JJ from before.

All I'm saying is that I think there is a huge potential for some really entertaining stories if everyone did forget that Peter existed. But no, I have no problem with the current supporting cast, and I have no problem with MJ or Aunt May. Keep them the same for all I care, but if they do decide to change it, that's great too!

[Joe-Dono]

I would like the whole everyone forgets peter parker.

[Brand]

Also, it appears you're contradicting yourself. First you say that his relationship to characters like Black Cat and Human Torch would be altered, but then you say it wouldn't be anything new...

If Felicia forgets Spider-Man's identity, it will fundamentally change her relationship with Peter. You can't deny that. But we've seen him reveal his identity to her before, even if her reaction would (hopefully) be different now. But taking away all of her memories of him would basically negate all of the growth that has happened between these characters over the past few decades. The same goes for the rest of the supporting cast. Why even bother reading if Marvel's going to hit the reset switch when they don't like the world they've made?

And again, I'd point out that some (and I'd wager it's more like A LOT) of us like what little of the cast is left. There's no reason to get rid of them to bring in a completely new crew. Adding new people is fine, but Spider-Man is as much about the surrounding characters and villains as it is about the hero.

Yeah, there could very well be some pretty good stories told if they did this reset (*cough*Mackie*cough*;) ) but I'd just as soon such a thing didn't take place in the 616. I still think of 616 Spidey as the 'main' Spidey, and I'd really like to keep him as non-f'ed up as possible, and that would seriously mess things up even worse than they are now. Plus, is it too much to ask to leave us with one version of our favorite character who's still happily married? :rolleyes:

[Jimmae]

i really hope they dont do a massive retcon. as someone whos grown up reading spidey, i like the way things are now, sure, he's meant to be the downtrodden everyman, but there is a limit to just how downtrodden one person can get. with all the crap thats already happened to him, and is now happening with the civil war fall out, hasnt the poor guy had enough for a while?

i like that he's married and has a close circle of confidantes, hes meant to be responsible and grown up, and he is, he has a family to look after and protect, if you remove that, there wont be half as much angst and worry whenever hes in a fight, as if he gets caught, so what? its only him.

if people want to read about a teenage, single spidey, they have the ultimate line and the marvel adventures line, the quiet majority like me who enjoys reading about someone in a relationship and growing up should be able to enjoy our mainstream spidey as he is.

if they do wipe all his history and everyones memories of him, i'll stop reading, i dont want to have to invest the next 15 years of my life learning another version of peter, just to have him wiped again when someone else at marvel makes a mistake and doesnt man up to deal with it.

[Brand]

i really hope they dont do a massive retcon. as someone whos grown up reading spidey, i like the way things are now, sure, he's meant to be the downtrodden everyman, but there is a limit to just how downtrodden one person can get. with all the crap thats already happened to him, and is now happening with the civil war fall out, hasnt the poor guy had enough for a while?

i like that he's married and has a close circle of confidantes, hes meant to be responsible and grown up, and he is, he has a family to look after and protect, if you remove that, there wont be half as much angst and worry whenever hes in a fight, as if he gets caught, so what? its only him.

if people want to read about a teenage, single spidey, they have the ultimate line and the marvel adventures line, the quiet majority like me who enjoys reading about someone in a relationship and growing up should be able to enjoy our mainstream spidey as he is.

if they do wipe all his history and everyones memories of him, i'll stop reading, i dont want to have to invest the next 15 years of my life learning another version of peter, just to have him wiped again when someone else at marvel makes a mistake and doesnt man up to deal with it.

Thank you. I agree wholeheartedly.

But who wants to bet this is all pointless and the actual story will either be far more creative or even more redundant than we thought, and after it's over we'll look back at all the discussion generated by the hype for it and think how gullible we were? :D

[Jimmae]

i actually hope its MJ being pregnant to be honest!

i think peter in spidergirl / mc2 universe is very cool. hes torn between his responsibilities and his desire to see people doing good and bad people being stopped, the author writes him well in that comic, and it would be good to see that being developed in the 616 universe.

what would he do if mj was pregnant? cut a deal with tony so she could go back to stark towers and be protected if he helped train the kids in the initiative? that would be cool, and you could get more angst as all his new avengers friends go cold on him (like they did to falcon) but ultimately understood why he had to do it

[Sean Whitmore]

Well, what is the correct term for that scenario?

A story. ;)


SEAN

[Mister Mets]

But if MJ remembers Peter, why shouldn't they stay married? If it's because she would be in danger, then there's no reason for Peter to ever date again. Does anyone want to read about a Spider-Man who goes through life alone and miserable?

And there are some people, like Felicia, that I happen to like knowing Peter's identity. It's good that he has close friends he can turn to when he's in trouble. Regardless of what she's doing with Fireheart, I'm betting if she had to choose between the two Cat would pick Peter over any guy she's ever been with. Taking away the knowledge of Peter's identity would completely destroy that relationship.
The retcon would be that Peter & MJ still knew each other. MJ just never learned Peter's identity.

Their relationship changed in Amazing Spider-Man #257, when Mary Jane revealed that she had always known that Peter Parker was Spider-Man. In the remade world, that never happened. So MJ wasn't able to comfort Peter during some dark moments in Spider-Man's life. And Peter never proposed to her, knowing that she would know more than any other woman what she was getting into.

Peter could later reveal his identity to others, who have been able to take the news well (ie- Aunt May, Black Cat). However somehow making it so MJ never knew that Peter was Spider-Man is the way to undo the marriage/ unmasking.

One random idea I'd do is that Venom (due to his alien nature/ relationship of the symbiote) remembers the world as it was, and can restore people's memories so they remember that world. This would establish him as a major threat to Peter Parker, as he may help major villains (ie- Norman Osborn) remember the real events of Civil War.

[Loestal]

Guys..they aren't going to do anything like that. Spider-man's current situation is part of Marvel's post CW philosophy. Same with Cap being dead. In case you aren't aware of this, Joe Q. has talked about it a few times.

CW was supposed to be a turning point in Marvel history. After CW, the MU would become a wild, unpredictable and unfamiliar place. They are trying to take it back to the 60's and 70's area where you really couldn't know what was going to happen next. They aren't going to retcon everything back the way it was pre-CW, that would be counter productive.

I believe there are going to be some great storys that are going to be told in the near future simply because of this new philosophy.

[Mister Mets]

The Loki scenario sounds plausible. A simple reality warp and no one knows that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. As long as it's not something stupid like, "No More Memory of Peter Parker as Spider-Man." I don't see why MJ and PP couldn't stay married. If anything they would be on the brink of divorce due to Peter's constant unexplained disappearances. Or, maybe they are explained but not very well. DC did something similar with the Flash. I don't know if it stuck but it could work.
I just don't see Peter not telling his wife about his Spider-Man "hobby" given
1. how much of an asset she is
and
2. how much risk he puts her in.

I'm well aware Mackie tried that storyline for an year after the reboot.

[Brand]

Guys..they aren't going to do anything like that. Spider-man's current situation is part of Marvel's post CW philosophy. Same with Cap being dead. In case you aren't aware of this, Joe Q. has talked about it a few times.

CW was supposed to be a turning point in Marvel history. After CW, the MU would become a wild, unpredictable and unfamiliar place. They are trying to take it back to the 60's and 70's area where you really couldn't know what was going to happen next. They aren't going to retcon everything back the way it was pre-CW, that would be counter productive.

I believe there are going to be some great storys that are going to be told in the near future simply because of this new philosophy.

Like I said a few posts up, it's doubtful we'll be able to guess just what Marvel has in store for us at the end of the year, and we're probably not going to even be close. Like you said, there's no point in undoing decades of work on a character after putting so much effort into it. I don't see them going that route, but then I didn't see them doing what they did to Gwen after so long, or digging up the Phoenix storyline over and over in the X-books. Marvel seems to have a bad habit of bringing up the past when it's better left alone, so hopefully this won't be a case when they try to go back TO the past. :p

[PatchMadripoor]

I know I should be reading the Sins Past thread on this board, but before I add my 2 cents can anyone tell me if that meeting between Gwen and Peter (where Gwen told MJ she had kids with Norman Osborne) back-in-the-day was before or after the initial Jackal / Spidey-clone business?

[Omega Alpha]

One possibility.

Spider-Man asks Doctor Strange to change history so people don't remember his identity. Doctor Strange had done something similar when he made the world forget about the Sentry, but he refuses to change the world this time arguing that the risk is too great.

Loki arrives, with new reality warping powers similar to the Loki in Ultimates 2 (keep in mind JMS is handling the Thor relaunch, which gives him complete control over the new Loki.) He reminds Spider-Man that he owes the hero a favor from an earlier JMS two-parter, and will subtly remake the world so that no one ever knew Peter Parker was Spider-Man. Peter is ambivalent about this, until Loki informs him that this remaking can not undo an actual death. If Peter waits too long, his poor Aunt May will die on life support and therefore won't be alive in the remade world.

Peter agrees and the world is remade, probably at the moment Aunt May recovers from her injuries and Tony Stark gets a full pardon for Spider-Man.

Loki's plan was successful. No one remembers Peter Parker's identity. Unfortunately this includes Mary Jane Watson, who never learned that Peter Parker was Spider-Man, and therefore never married him. In the end, Peter's left with the memories and experiences from three worlds: the Son of M world, the world where he was married to MJ, and the new one.


Loki doesn't need reality-warping powers to make the world forget, he's a scorcerer on Strange's level (and is more experienced to boot).

But, anyway, i think that is more or less what will happen. And it will be a disaster.

[Loestal]

One possibility.

Spider-Man asks Doctor Strange to change history so people don't remember his identity. Doctor Strange had done something similar when he made the world forget about the Sentry, but he refuses to change the world this time arguing that the risk is too great..

Uh, what? Doctor Strange didn't do that, Sentry did it. Plus, why would he do this for Peter? That was be a pretty big misuse of his power, pretty wreckless. Not including how Marvel is currently bringing Strange's power levels down. And Loki is dead, along with the rest of the Asgardian's except Thor or until Thor's new book comes out and says differently. And....ah, this idea just would be aweful.

[Mister Mets]

Just so we're clear, the term "retcon" is incorrect here.

If Doctor Strange wiped Peter's identity from the memory of everyone on earth, it wouldn't be a retcon. If Mary Jane lost her memory tomorrow, and as a result wasn't married to Peter anymore, that wouldn't be a retcon. There's nothing retroactive about it. Because those stories where the world knew Peter's identity and MJ was married to him still "happened."

This message has been brought to you by the Foundation of Comic Terminology.


SEAN
One problem I see on message boards is that terms like "retcon" are immediately given negative connotations when there's nothing inherently good or bad about them.

According to Writing for Comics by Peter David (Page 110-112) retcons are stories which change the continuity context of previous stories and fall into three different categories.
1. stories which tie disparate story elements together to make the mistakes seem intentional (ie- revealing that Ned Leeds's inability to fight the Foreigner's goons was proof that he wasn't really the Hobgoblin)
2. stories which put modern spins on pre-existing continuity (ie- John Byrne's revelation that Lockjaw was an Inhuman)
and
3. stories which just establish a new and distinct continuity sometimes with the aid of an explanation in a continuity- altering event such as Crisis of Infinite Earths.

The Doctor Strange event would qualify as a retcon, regardless of whether the stories in which Peter & MJ were married "happened" or not, in the same way the adventures of the Golden Age DC heroes still happened, when it was established that they lived in Earth-2 (another famous retcon).



As an aside, I thought it was clever when Peter David also defined stetcons- retcons which undo previous retcons.

[Mister Mets]

Uh, what? Doctor Strange didn't do that, Sentry did it. Plus, why would he do this for Peter? That was be a pretty big misuse of his power, pretty wreckless. Not including how Marvel is currently bringing Strange's power levels down. And Loki is dead, along with the rest of the Asgardian's except Thor or until Thor's new book comes out and says differently. And....ah, this idea just would be aweful.

Regarding Loki:
JMS is writing the story in which Thor & the Asgardians return, so he could easily use Loki's return and possibly beefed up powers to set-up events in his Thor relaunch.

Regarding Doctor Strange:
I was under the impression that Doctor Strange helped Sentry alter reality. I'll have to reread the Sentry. I agree it would be a reckless misuse of his powers, which is why I believe he would refuse to help Peter, before Loki agrees to step in.

[Sean Whitmore]

One problem I see on message boards is that terms like "retcon" are immediately given negative connotations when there's nothing inherently good or bad about them.

Absolutely. A retcon is just a story device, like a flashback or an epilogue. They're good or bad depending on what they are and who's writing them.

Everyone loves some retcons whether they know it or not. Elektra. Magneto being a holocaust survivor. Even Norman Osborn being the Green Goblin would qualify, I suppose.


The Doctor Strange event would qualify as a retcon, regardless of whether the stories in which Peter & MJ were married "happened" or not.

I disgaree. A retcon would be to say something never happened. Taking a present story and going back and actually, physically changing things is different.


SEAN

[Loestal]

Regarding Loki:
JMS is writing the story in which Thor & the Asgardians return, so he could easily use Loki's return and possibly beefed up powers to set-up events in his Thor relaunch.

Regarding Doctor Strange:
I was under the impression that Doctor Strange helped Sentry alter reality. I'll have to reread the Sentry. I agree it would be a reckless misuse of his powers, which is why I believe he would refuse to help Peter, before Loki agrees to step in.

The only thing Strange did in Sentrys mini was, with the help of Reed, put him in a containment machine and Strange used an illusion to keep Sentry placid for the time being until they figure out what to do.

Sentry wiped everyone's memory of him because Mastermind infected him with a psychic virus and essentially forced him to. That virus really messed with his head, not counting he was clinically messed up to begin with.

I am, of course, talking about the latest one. The original one I don't know about, I don't even think it's canon.

[rZi]

You know, would it really be a bad thing if everyone Peter knew forgot he existed? I mean, seriously, it would force them to give Peter a brand new supporting cast with possibly a couple of the original supporting cast members, but his relationship with the originals would be different since he would have to reintroduce himself to them. I think it could be really cool and offer some excellent new story ideas if the entire world forgot Peter even existed. But I know how much comic fans on this board hate change, so maybe this is the wrong place to support such an idea...

Please no, thats an awful idea. Thats like re-casting spider-man himself..

To wipe the worlds memory clean of peters identity is gonna happen...its just got to but this wouldn't nessecarily mean MJ...but if she does still remember, then how will they break up peter and mj? which is what joe q wants to do...i can't think of a scenario where everyone is happy...im just gonna have to cut myself and wait for the release, damn im excited.

[Mister Mets]

I disgaree. A retcon would be to say something never happened. Taking a present story and going back and actually, physically changing things is different.
SEAN
I think the word's too poorly defined to argue about it much, but from my understanding "going back and actually, physically changing things" is a retcon.

The only thing Strange did in Sentrys mini was, with the help of Reed, put him in a containment machine and Strange used an illusion to keep Sentry placid for the time being until they figure out what to do.

Sentry wiped everyone's memory of him because Mastermind infected him with a psychic virus and essentially forced him to. That virus really messed with his head, not counting he was clinically messed up to begin with.

I am, of course, talking about the latest one. The original one I don't know about, I don't even think it's canon.
I was referring to the original mini series, which I'll have to reread.
The Mastermind link hadn't been established in the first mini series.

Now I'm going to have to look up the second Jenkins mini series.

[Loestal]

I think the word's too poorly defined to argue about it much, but from my understanding "going back and actually, physically changing things" is a retcon.


I was referring to the original mini series, which I'll have to reread.
The Mastermind link hadn't been established in the first mini series.

Now I'm going to have to look up the second Jenkins mini series.

Oh, well then yeah...I don't think the original is canon. The second mini is actually really good. I think me and the other 4 people who bought it really enjoyed it.

[Will.S]

I'm not really in favor of retconning an entire marriage.

If you're going to do something that drastic, might as well move forward and either break them up or kill MJ off if she's not going to factor into Peter's life much. They should just do what they've been doing and deal with the hand they're dealt.

Hell outside of JMS himself, Matt Fraction's Peter and MJ relationship in the Sensational Annual still shows that writers can still keep the relationship fun and interesting and make them play off of each other, especially with May biting the dust.

[desanth]

I think it'd be interesting concept, but wouldn't work out.

In my own mind's version, Loki would change it all so that no one know Peter's identity as Spiderman, except Peter of course. Reality would be changed to fit this. But if Peter tells anyone, reality goes back to knowing who he is, so he's given the choice of living with his secret alone or going back and putting his family in danger. There'd be about 12 issues of his emo angst at being unable to tell anyone until he realizes it was better with everyone knowing.

Or Loki changes reality so that instead of Peter being Spiderman, Ben Reilly never died and he revealed himself while Peter went on being married to MJ until they divorced (w/o Peter being SM, MJ just didn't love Peter enough) maybe with the return of baby May.

Either case, it'd be interesting, but like I said, don't think it'd work out.

[desanth]

I think it'd be interesting concept, but wouldn't work out.

In my own mind's version, Loki would change it all so that no one know Peter's identity as Spiderman, except Peter of course. Reality would be changed to fit this. But if Peter tells anyone, reality goes back to knowing who he is, so he's given the choice of living with his secret alone or going back and putting his family in danger. There'd be about 12 issues of his emo angst at being unable to tell anyone until he realizes it was better with everyone knowing.

Or Loki changes reality so that instead of Peter being Spiderman, Ben Reilly never died and he revealed himself while Peter went on being married to MJ until they divorced (w/o Peter being SM, MJ just didn't love Peter enough) maybe with the return of baby May.

Either case, it'd be interesting, but like I said, don't think it'd work out.

[Loestal]

I think it'd be interesting concept, but wouldn't work out.

In my own mind's version, Loki would change it all so that no one know Peter's identity as Spiderman, except Peter of course. Reality would be changed to fit this. But if Peter tells anyone, reality goes back to knowing who he is, so he's given the choice of living with his secret alone or going back and putting his family in danger. There'd be about 12 issues of his emo angst at being unable to tell anyone until he realizes it was better with everyone knowing.

Or Loki changes reality so that instead of Peter being Spiderman, Ben Reilly never died and he revealed himself while Peter went on being married to MJ until they divorced (w/o Peter being SM, MJ just didn't love Peter enough) maybe with the return of baby May.

Either case, it'd be interesting, but like I said, don't think it'd work out.

THere have been alot of theorys like this in the not to distance past. Dealing with this subject, CW, etc. My problem with these speculations, besides the fact that they rarely if ever come true, is the question why?

Why would Loki do this, why would he care? Even if it's tied to a hero he usually battles...why would he do it? I can see virtually no solid reason why Loki, Beyonder, Mephesto etc. would bother reversing Parker's situation.

[Omega Alpha]

Why would Loki do this, why would he care? Even if it's tied to a hero he usually battles...why would he do it? I can see virtually no solid reason why Loki, Beyonder, Mephesto etc. would bother reversing Parker's situation.

Loki said that he owned Spider-Man a favor in ASM #504, i think, that's why he would do it.

[Blade X]

As ugly as I think it is and as frustrating as I find retcons for their own sakes, a pretty monstrous retcon is probably coming down on your Friendly Neighborhood Spiderman very soon. Probably wiping at least the fact that the world knows Peter Parker is Spiderman or possibly as much as Pete's marriage to Mary Jane. Either in One More Day or maybe even in the aftermath.

So I'd like to hear some ideas on how to pull this off respectably or just some basic musings and opinions on massive retcons of this nature.

Watch the short lived WB tv comedy called DO OVER on how to "fix" (it's not really a retcon) both the bad crap and of the good stuff that has happened to Spidey.

[Mister Mets]

Loki said that he owned Spider-Man a favor in ASM #504, i think, that's why he would do it.
Yup.

In a story written by the man who is finishing his run in "One More Day" and handling an upcoming Thor relaunch.

[Sonicjuce]

Yup.

In a story written by the man who is finishing his run in "One More Day" and handling an upcoming Thor relaunch.

I wouldn't be surprised to see the Loki issue brought up. This would make sense, but I don't think it will be as extreme as we all think.

The fallout from civil war has not really occurred to its utmost. With a retcon of this magnitude how would they retell that entire story to fit? The past year and a half it almost seems would have to be entirely re-told.

People say they will stop reading 616 spidey if this did occur. I would find it ridiculous for awhile, but one day I would come to terms with it. Not to mention that by the time I began to get comfortable with this JQ would suddenly retcon it, or the following editor and chief.

Also I think Whitmore was entirely right. This term retcon gets thrown around far to much. It is a story, yes it changes something but it doesn't go back and say this chunk of history never occurred. It simply changes it and builds on that history, thus it's a story. If this were the case every issue that alters history in any form would be a retcon, and thus everything would fall into the category of a retcon.

[StoneGold]

I love the title of this thread. I keep wanting to add "...they're so dreamy!" after the sigh.

[Sean Whitmore]

Done and done!


SEAN

[Spider-Man]

A story. ;)


SEAN

Ugh. Geez Whitmore, you say this like it being a story makes it somehow immune to being crappy.

It's written by JMS. The man's a capable writer, but he's done some of his worst work on Spider-Man these last few years. He wasn't original and creative enough to do something with what was already there, so he decides to bring in mysticism and change Spidey's origin. He would have been better off just creating a new character.

"One More Day" will be crappy because it's written by JMS and drawn by Quesada, who I respect even less than JMS.

So yes, it's going to be a story. But a bad one. And the repercussions will hopefully be retconned in a few years' time.

Spidey

[rockgrant]

Loki's plan was successful. No one remembers Peter Parker's identity. Unfortunately this includes Mary Jane Watson, who never learned that Peter Parker was Spider-Man, and therefore never married him. In the end, Peter's left with the memories and experiences from three worlds: the Son of M world, the world where he was married to MJ, and the new one.


Here's an interesting facet of this plan: it should leave Gwen Stacy still alive. If Norman never knew Peter was Spider-Man, he'd have no reason to abduct her. I know you said that in your scenario "dead people can't be brought back," but that doesn't really make sense, does it? If you're changing reality, then why can't they?

Also, Harry may be alive as well. A big part of his mental breakdown was the fact that his best friend "murdered" his dad.

Hmm, what else? No more Peter's parents androids, as that plan was concocted by Harry. Aunt May doesn't know anymore, which is, in my mind, a HUGE step backward for the character. The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man died without ever seeing his hero's face, ruining that story.

There's no clone saga.

In all, I think this is a pretty half-baked idea, and one that Marvel isn't ready for the consequences of. Wouldn't surprise me if they plowed away with it anyway, though.

[Mister Mets]

Here's an interesting facet of this plan: it should leave Gwen Stacy still alive. If Norman never knew Peter was Spider-Man, he'd have no reason to abduct her. I know you said that in your scenario "dead people can't be brought back," but that doesn't really make sense, does it? If you're changing reality, then why can't they?

Also, Harry may be alive as well. A big part of his mental breakdown was the fact that his best friend "murdered" his dad.

Hmm, what else? No more Peter's parents androids, as that plan was concocted by Harry. Aunt May doesn't know anymore, which is, in my mind, a HUGE step backward for the character. The Kid Who Collected Spider-Man died without ever seeing his hero's face, ruining that story.

There's no clone saga.

In all, I think this is a pretty half-baked idea, and one that Marvel isn't ready for the consequences of. Wouldn't surprise me if they plowed away with it anyway, though.

I think Loki's spell wouldn't affect the actions of individuals who learned Spider-Man's identity and then died/ somehow forgot it, as that has nothing to do with Spider-Man's Civil War problems, and as you said ruins stories in an unnecessary manner. If Loki says "No man on Earth will know that Peter Parker is Spider-Man" and changes reality accordingly, that allows for a few loopholes (ie- people could have known before/ somehow forgot it, or Venom's symbiote may remember.)

Norman Osborn could just forget he's the Green Goblin (and Spider-Man's identity), something he's done many times before.

I think it would be a bad idea for the retcon to somehow erase deaths, because it raises some ugly questions (why doesn't Spider-Man undo something more important within the MU like September 11 or the incident that kicked off Civil War) and sets a bad precedent for unnecessary resurrections (just have Loki remake reality). Loki telling Peter that the retcon won't undo deaths would also force him to make the decision before Aunt May dies.

Peter could always tell characters about his secret identity afterwards, and I think Aunt May should learn his identity again, as that was a good step for the character and Peter knows that she can handle the shock.

[Mister Mets]

Ugh. Geez Whitmore, you say this like it being a story makes it somehow immune to being crappy.

It's written by JMS. The man's a capable writer, but he's done some of his worst work on Spider-Man these last few years. He wasn't original and creative enough to do something with what was already there, so he decides to bring in mysticism and change Spidey's origin. He would have been better off just creating a new character.

"One More Day" will be crappy because it's written by JMS and drawn by Quesada, who I respect even less than JMS.

So yes, it's going to be a story. But a bad one. And the repercussions will hopefully be retconned in a few years' time.

Spidey
It's kinda odd that you criticize a man for not being "original and creative" because he brought a lot of new elements to the mythos. You could criticize JMS for his changes to the character, but that's not the way to do it.

I also don't get the criticism that some of JMS's Spider-Man work was amongst his worst work in this context. When he leaves the title, he'll have written more than seventy issues with the character, so odds are that some of it will be below-average for the writer (because his Fantastic Four run was significantly shorter, odds are a lot greater that his Spider-Man run had more bad stories than his F4 run.) If you thought that most of his work on the character was below-average, than you'd have legitimate reasons to fear "One More Day".

Do you not respect Joe Quesada as artist or Editor-in-Chief of Marvel? I think he's a good artist, but that's entirely a matter of opinion. I think as Editor-in-Chief, he's made Marvel a better place than it was when he took over (or even when he introduced Marvel Knights.)

I think you completely misinterpret Whitmore's "A Story" comment.
"A Story" is not immune to being crappy, as every crappy comic any of us criticize is a still "a story." "A Story" has the potential to be average, mediocre or astounding, regardless of who is writing or who is drawing or who the characters are or whether or not it has a magical retcon.

[Chris Nowlin]

This thread will be about retroactive continuity.

Famous retcons:
-That wasn't Aunt May
-Norman survived
-Something about Gwen and Norman that I forget

I'll mention another in a minute.

Retroactive continuity means a lot of things. Not all annoying. Sometimes you're inserting stories into the past that actually fit nicely and playing off them. This is okay. Paul Jenkins is telling untold stories about Peter and Uncle Ben from back when. No problem.

I'm talking about the changing of history rather than the expanding of it. Something which doesn't fit with an old interpretation of the story, especially when the old interpretation is better.

Yeah, Amazing Spider-Man #400 is a better story if that's Aunt May. Also makes more sense.

Retcons will likely happen again soon. But if you retcon a retcon, is it a retcon?

What if the new Aunt May is a skrull and that really was Aunt May who died?

How do people feel. Are things being set right or messed up further?

Here's an old retcon that annoys the hell out of me.



The alien costume saga. Think back. Peter gets a costume. Does cool stuff. Then he learns it's alive and trying to bond with him. So he has it imprisoned by the FF. Costume doesn't like this. Costume breaks off and finds its way to Spidey again. Spidey makes his way to a belltower, where the bells almost kill the costume and Peter as well.

The costume's last act? To save Peter. Some of Peter's compassion had been imprinted on it, and it saved his life before it died. It died a hero, who genuinely cared for Peter.


Later, we learn: it didn't die and it wants to eat Spider-Man's brains. Garbage retcon. Part of why I hate Venom.



Retcon I didn't mind: when Tinkerer's henchmen were revealed to not actually be aliens. Because the original story was pretty stupid. Though I was happier forgetting it than having it explained to me.



Other retcons that annoy you? Retcons that would annoy you? Retcons of retcons? When are you okay with them?

[Noronha]

Retcons that would annoy you?

Not to jump the gun or anything but i feel that OMD will probably fall into this category!
Sins Passed-Simply because it was Osborn,the kids could´ve been Peter´s,it´s known that almost 10 years passed since Gwen died,so,was it so bad to make Sarah and that other obnoxious guy their kids??
Imagine Peter with 10 year old sons,oh wait JoeQ would probably killed them off because they would make Peter to old!
What gives me confort is that since JMS is leaving i can´t see no one picking them up,UNLESS they make another retcon and they end up beeing Peter´s kids after all.
But hey peter will never ever have any kids so why am I thinking of something like this

[rZi]

I agree a retcon can be a good form of writing lets say for example....a new bad guy is introduced, he and peter fight and peter wins...some time later a retcon can be made about the villians origins or what their motive was for doing whatever it is they have done and just generaly fill in the missing plot lines or gaps.

In terms for what i want retconned:

The Other - the new powers are unnessecary...if he's done 40 years without them he can do another 40.

The Identity - i really have no idea if this can even be retconned...but im frustrated that peter seems to have taken less care about this secret alter ego in recent years than ever. I hate the fact that there is a huge list of people who know who he is...thats what made the green goblin and venom so dangerous and unique.

I'll edit this post later when more come to mind

[Nick MB]

In terms for what i want retconned:

The Other - the new powers are unnessecary...if he's done 40 years without them he can do another 40.


The new powers are not a retcon. They would be a retcon if the writers tried to say he'd had them since the beginning. But they were introduced at a point and he's only had them since then.

[Sean Whitmore]

The new powers are not a retcon. They would be a retcon if the writers tried to say he'd had them since the beginning. But they were introduced at a point and he's only had them since then.

He's saying that he wants them TO be retconned, I believe.

Of course, even if Peter loses his stingers tomorrow, the term still doesn't fit.


SEAN

[rZi]

Yeah i kinda explained my point wrong...i want the stingers to go but i can't ask the writters to act like the other never happend

[Sean Whitmore]

Paul Jenkins has been responsible for some harmless retcons (like Coke mentioned, all the Uncle Ben stuff) and some truly ridiculous ones.

His Lizard retcon comes to mind, where he revealed that Curt Connors has been secretly giving into the Lizard transformation willingly because he loves the power. It's the worst kind of retcon, one that completely flies in the face of past stories and at the same time forever taints the character in the here and now. On the bright side, this seems to have been ignored.

His Venom wasn't much better. The dynamic for Venom was always "jilted lover" meets "disgruntled postal worker" (metaphorically), and that's what made him interesting. Jenkins' story changed that to "cancer-eating evil monster" and "guy possessed by evil monster", which is just tons more boring.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

A couple of retcons I liked: Ben Urich and Robbie Robertson revealing that they knew Peter was Spider-Man. (Well, Ben came right out and said it, Robbie kinda alluded to it)

These revelations may not gel perfectly with the past; I'm sure someone could point out examples of stories where Robbie or Ben knowing the secret would have been brought up before. But it doesn't matter, because they're good ideas, and they make sense. It makes them look like real newspapermen, like they're not just "Lois Lane"ing through the job, as it were. And it changes the dynamic between these characters and Peter in potentially interesting ways.


SEAN

[Mister Mets]

I'll express my displeasure for the idea that Curt Connors could always control the Lizard (Jenkins's worst storyline.) I actually enjoyed the Venom story.

But I'll mention some retcons that worked....

The revelation that the Hobgoblin was never Ned Leeds.

The Tinkerer aliens thing was a good retcon, but I also enjoyed the revelation that Quentin Beck was one of those aliens.

A couple of retcons I liked: Ben Urich and Robbie Robertson revealing that they knew Peter was Spider-Man. (Well, Ben came right out and said it, Robbie kinda alluded to it)

These revelations may not gel perfectly with the past; I'm sure someone could point out examples of stories where Robbie or Ben knowing the secret would have been brought up before. But it doesn't matter, because they're good ideas, and they make sense. It makes them look like real newspapermen, like they're not just "Lois Lane"ing through the job, as it were. And it changes the dynamic between these characters and Peter in potentially interesting ways.


SEAN
The suggestion that "Robbie" Robertson may know or at least suspect that Peter Parker is Spider-Man's been around for a while.
Two notable examples were Kraven's Last Hunt (when MJ visited him in the middle of the night worried about Peter) and the beginning of Stan Lee's Harry Osborn on drugs storyline.

[Toku King]

Good retcons:
The Tinkerer aliens were really men in suits.
Robbie knowing Peter was Spiderman.
Ben knowing Peter was Spiderman.
Captain Stacey knowing Peter was Spiderman.
Mary Jane Watson knowing Peter was Spiderman.
Ned Leeds wasn't the Hobgoblin.
Chameleon 2121 was behind Uncle Ben's 2 death, and was there since the Mysterio crisis.
Aunt May didn't die.

Bad retcons:
Everything else entirely.

[Sean Whitmore]

But I'll mention some retcons that worked....

The revelation that the Hobgoblin was never Ned Leeds.

But then, making Ned Leeds the Hobgoblin in the first place was a retcon. Revealing him as Kingsley was kind of an un-retcon. :)

Here's a retcon that I don't think is either good or bad, because it had such a negligible effect on Spider-Man...revealing that his parents were spies. I mean, it's rather silly, but it's not like his parents ever come up anyway.


SEAN

[ShadowSonic]

I don't think that Captain Stacy knowing Peter was Spider-Man is a retcon, was it? Wasn't it something he found out gradually but kept it a secret until he died?

[Mister Mets]

But then, making Ned Leeds the Hobgoblin in the first place was a retcon. Revealing him as Kingsley was kind of an un-retcon. :)

Here's a retcon that I don't think is either good or bad, because it had such a negligible effect on Spider-Man...revealing that his parents were spies. I mean, it's rather silly, but it's not like his parents ever come up anyway.


SEAN
I like Peter David's term for Un-Retcons: Stetcon.

I'm not sure is the revelation that Hobgoblin was Ned Leeds was a retcon as it had to be somebody. Although Roger Stern didn't mean for it to be Leeds.

[rockgrant]

Well, the most ridicuolus Spidey retcon of all time barring Aunt May was also the most necessary one: Peter Parker isn't a clone. Ben Reilly was pretty damned definitively revealed as the true Peter, and they had to do a lot of tap dancing to undo it in the end.

[Sean Whitmore]

I don't think that Captain Stacy knowing Peter was Spider-Man is a retcon, was it? Wasn't it something he found out gradually but kept it a secret until he died?

Did Stan Lee write the death of Capt Stacy, or Gerry Conway? If it was the former, it's almost definitely not a retcon, but if it's the latter, it could go either way.


SEAN

[Sean Whitmore]

Well, the most ridicuolus Spidey retcon of all time barring Aunt May was also the most necessary one: Peter Parker isn't a clone. Ben Reilly was pretty damned definitively revealed as the true Peter, and they had to do a lot of tap dancing to undo it in the end.

That was a whole cluster of retcons. That Ben survived in the first place, that he was the real Spider-Man, then that he wasn't again and dissolved for no reason whatsoever.


SEAN

[Omega Alpha]

I honestly have no idea what the hell where writers and editors thinking when they came up with Ben Reilly and him being the real Spider-Man. Did anyone involved explained WTF was on their minds?

[Sean Whitmore]

I honestly have no idea what the hell where writers and editors thinking when they came up with Ben Reilly and him being the real Spider-Man. Did anyone involved explained WTF was on their minds?

Marvel didn't think readers could relate to a married Spider-Man, so the plan was to ship Peter and MJ off and have the stories revolve around Ben as a single Spidey.

So they definitely had a goal in mind. Stupid goal, sure, but they weren't just doing stuff at random.


SEAN

[JoeK32880]

And then Ben turned into a fairly well-liked character and they killed him anyway for no good reason.

[Omega Alpha]

Marvel didn't think readers could relate to a married Spider-Man, so the plan was to ship Peter and MJ off and have the stories revolve around Ben as a single Spidey.

So they definitely had a goal in mind. Stupid goal, sure, but they weren't just doing stuff at random.


And almost 15 years later, Quesada is still with the same crap despite the fact that Spider-Man is more popular than ever?

And did Marvel really thought fans would be happy in get rid of Peter Parker? Are they freakin' retarded?

[JesseJay]

I'm still wondering why marvel killed ben reilly, and didn't just have him lose his powers or something. There could have been a ton of better ways to bring pete back. Death is a lot harder to swallow then re-powering and we all know nothing is permanent in comics, he'll be back.

[Sean Whitmore]

I'm still wondering why marvel killed ben reilly, and didn't just have him lose his powers or something. There could have been a ton of better ways to bring pete back. Death is a lot harder to swallow then re-powering and we all know nothing is permanent in comics, he'll be back.

I think the rationale was just that, readers were SO upset about getting their chains jerked by this whole stupid story, Marvel wanted to sweep every single aspect of it into the closet and never mention it again. Hence, nearly a decade later, and the only time Ben and Baby May have been mentioned in regular continuity was one issue of Millar's MK Spider-Man.

As for him being back, I doubt it, and for that exact same reason. Just look at what happened when the Thor clone was introduced, and 100 different people started crying, "Did they learn nothing from the Clone Saga?!" But, hey, anything's possible.


SEAN

[Nick MB]

And almost 15 years later, Quesada is still with the same crap despite the fact that Spider-Man is more popular than ever?

And did Marvel really thought fans would be happy in get rid of Peter Parker? Are they freakin' retarded?

I gather that, in the original clone saga masterplan, Ben would've "become" Peter Parker as well as Spider-Man, thus leaving us with a main character named Peter Parker, but a much happier one with less baggage.

Then, when the time actually came to have him take over, they realised that there was no way on earth to make Ben suddenly decide to ditch the identity he'd built for himself and declare himself Peter Parker, particularly with the 'other' Peter Parker still out there. If they'd been prepared to kill off the 'clone', they might have been able to pull off Ben Reilly deciding to take over the name, but they instead decided to send him off into the sunset with MJ and the baby for a happy ending which, ironically, was very noble of them but made their lives a lot harder.

[rZi]

And then Ben turned into a fairly well-liked character and they killed him anyway for no good reason.

If he were to stay there would be 2 spider-men which was a nice concept for a little while but we had been through that for like a year i think during the actual clone saga. To have ben alive would always have people who..."who's the real one?" which got out of hand alot in past issues "we reveal the one true spider-man this issue!" and then...they didn't.

[JoeK32880]

If he were to stay there would be 2 spider-men which was a nice concept for a little while but we had been through that for like a year i think during the actual clone saga. To have ben alive would always have people who..."who's the real one?" which got out of hand alot in past issues "we reveal the one true spider-man this issue!" and then...they didn't.

Well, he wasn't Spider-Man though. No one liked him as Spider-Man, but the Scarlet Spider is much beloved. Plus, there's a gang of Scarlet Spiders now anyway.

It's not like they couldn't have him move on and tell stories without bringing up his origins every time he appears.

[Chris Nowlin]

But then, making Ned Leeds the Hobgoblin in the first place was a retcon. Revealing him as Kingsley was kind of an un-retcon. :)

Here's a retcon that I don't think is either good or bad, because it had such a negligible effect on Spider-Man...revealing that his parents were spies. I mean, it's rather silly, but it's not like his parents ever come up anyway.


SEAN

What about when it was retconned so they weren't actually killed in the plane crash but captured in a prison camp. Then that retcon was retconned when it was revealed they were killed and the returned parents were shape-changing androids...

Did Stan Lee write the death of Capt Stacy, or Gerry Conway? If it was the former, it's almost definitely not a retcon, but if it's the latter, it could go either way.


SEAN

Stan Lee. That's touching on the border of what counts as a retcon.

I tend not to call revelations within one writer's run a retcon. You presume revelations had been planned and the writer didn't just change his mind.

Ned Leeds as the Hobgoblin is also pushing it, as it contradicted the intention of the story and our sensibilities, but not anything that actually happened or was revealed.





And to state my position clearly and argue with other comments above:

The single worst retcon in Spider-Man's history is Aunt May being not dead.

The issue where she learns Peter's identity is a great comic, and one I would have loved once, but I couldn't give a damn about because she's dead. I would like to care that Aunt May's dying now, but I can't because she's dead. It's the height of absurdity to suggest it's at all dramatic the possibility that she might die again. Absurd to the nth degree.

Worst decision ever made by anybody.

I welcome the retcon of the retcon. Please lord let this new one be a Skrull.



Marvel didn't think readers could relate to a married Spider-Man, so the plan was to ship Peter and MJ off and have the stories revolve around Ben as a single Spidey.

So they definitely had a goal in mind. Stupid goal, sure, but they weren't just doing stuff at random.


SEAN


I'm not convinced it was a bad idea. I've long thought what the Spidey stories needed was an ending. And that almost provided one with Greatest Responsibility and Final Chapter.

Whoever was the clone, Peter deciding that he has a responsiblity to his wife and daughter that needs to come first. That, with having somebody else to fill his shoes, seemed like a fine ending to the series.

Plus a fine new beginning. And Sensational Spider-Man #0 was a fine issue and a fine new beginning. With the little snafu that Spider-Man, for assorted reasons, really needs to be named Peter Parker. And that would have been hard to pull off, but not impossible.

I think it's what they should have done.

[Omega Alpha]

I gather that, in the original clone saga masterplan, Ben would've "become" Peter Parker as well as Spider-Man, thus leaving us with a main character named Peter Parker, but a much happier one with less baggage.

Then, when the time actually came to have him take over, they realised that there was no way on earth to make Ben suddenly decide to ditch the identity he'd built for himself and declare himself Peter Parker, particularly with the 'other' Peter Parker still out there. If they'd been prepared to kill off the 'clone', they might have been able to pull off Ben Reilly deciding to take over the name, but they instead decided to send him off into the sunset with MJ and the baby for a happy ending which, ironically, was very noble of them but made their lives a lot harder.

It still doesn't make sense. They really thought that by just having a guy named himself Peter Parker would make everyone happy in ignore the character they followed for decades and forget all the stories told with him? I really, really don't understand what's going on the heads of everyone at Marvel, both back then and now.


I'm not convinced it was a bad idea. I've long thought what the Spidey stories needed was an ending. And that almost provided one with Greatest Responsibility and Final Chapter.

Whoever was the clone, Peter deciding that he has a responsiblity to his wife and daughter that needs to come first. That, with having somebody else to fill his shoes, seemed like a fine ending to the series.

Plus a fine new beginning. And Sensational Spider-Man #0 was a fine issue and a fine new beginning. With the little snafu that Spider-Man, for assorted reasons, really needs to be named Peter Parker. And that would have been hard to pull off, but not impossible.

I think it's what they should have done.

If you think that the stories of the characters have to end, then comics are not the place for you. The whole point is precisely to follow the lives of this same characters or teams for decades, and one of the advantages the medium has it doesn't need to end, like movies, books or TV shows eventually do. If you or anyone doesn't want to continue to read about Peter Parker, it's easy to just drop the Spider-Man books.

[Mister Mets]

If you think that the stories of the characters have to end, then comics are not the place for you. The whole point is precisely to follow the lives of this same characters or teams for decades, and one of the advantages the medium has it doesn't need to end, like movies, books or TV shows eventually do. If you or anyone doesn't want to continue to read about Peter Parker, it's easy to just drop the Spider-Man books.
I agree with most of what you said, although I'd clarify comics as meaning "Marvel/ DC superhero books" as there are many comics at Vertigo and other places with definitive ends.

I think the rationale was just that, readers were SO upset about getting their chains jerked by this whole stupid story, Marvel wanted to sweep every single aspect of it into the closet and never mention it again. Hence, nearly a decade later, and the only time Ben and Baby May have been mentioned in regular continuity was one issue of Millar's MK Spider-Man.

As for him being back, I doubt it, and for that exact same reason. Just look at what happened when the Thor clone was introduced, and 100 different people started crying, "Did they learn nothing from the Clone Saga?!" But, hey, anything's possible.


SEAN
There were a few other references to baby May & Ben Reilly, but they were pretty rare. There were more references to baby May then Ben Reilly though (various issues in the period between the clone saga & reboot, Peter Parker Spider-Man #25)

And almost 15 years later, Quesada is still with the same crap despite the fact that Spider-Man is more popular than ever?

Spider-Man's not more popular than ever. While the movies are doing incredibly well and Amazing's selling all right, Friendly Neighborhood has fallen out of the Top 50, and Sensational struggles to get into the Top 40.

[Mikl C]

Aunt May being alive is literally the most INSULTING retcon I've eevr witnessed. I felt dirty just reading that story.
So.. where was she? In that house?
What was with the deliberate induced labour? The yacht witht he CRIB etc? So RANDOM and LAME. BabyMay is alive and OldMay is a skrull.
MAKE IT SO.

[Sean Whitmore]

What about when it was retconned so they weren't actually killed in the plane crash but captured in a prison camp. Then that retcon was retconned when it was revealed they were killed and the returned parents were shape-changing androids...

Ah, fun times. :) But honestly, they could have just been two government bean-counters or human rights activists or something, and still wound up in a plane going over a hostile country. Even then, them being spies was only tangentially involved.

As for the Aunt May retcon, while I'm in perfect agreement of how lame it was, I don't know that I can call it the worst retcon, because at least it had an understandable goal in bringing back Peter's oldest (in every sense of the word) supporting character. So even people who don't agree with it can at least sympathize with their intentions.

You look at "Sins Past", however, and they pretty radically Peter's past and (unintentionally) made a joke of Peter's first truly romantic experience for the sake of a momentary emotional crisis. There didn't seem to be any long-term goal to the idea, unless someone thought Sarah and Gabriel would be great, well-received supporting characters who would stand the test of time.


SEAN

[ShadowSonic]

One thing I never got was why they had to say that the May in ASM 400 was a genetically altered actress, instead of just having Norman somehow bring May back to life.

Wasn't it because the Editor of the comics at the time hated that May had always known Peter was Spider-Man, and thus had to have May not know who he was?

[Sean Whitmore]

One thing I never got was why they had to say that the May in ASM 400 was a genetically altered actress, instead of just having Norman somehow bring May back to life.

Wasn't it because the Editor of the comics at the time hated that May had always known Peter was Spider-Man, and thus had to have May not know who he was?

I'm sure that played a part in it. The decree at the time was, for all intents and purposes, that Peter was to have basically the same status quo he had in the '70s.


SEAN

[rockgrant]

Don't forget the "genetic construct" retcon that undid cloning, which was subsequently re-retconned in Scarlet Spider Unlimited #1. That's one of those rare retcons that's so complicated, most fans just throw up their arms and say, "whatever."

[Sijo]

I think we all agree that the worst Spidey Retcon was Gwen having had sex with Norman Osborn (Ugh!), get pregnant, deliver the babies in secret and then abandon them, going back to Peter and acting as if everything was OK. While some retcons, as mentioned above, can be good, this one seemed to ignore the fans' feelings for Gwen for the sake of two new characters. :mad: Oh well, at least it seems to have been "unretconned" by fans and Marvel people alike doing their best to ignore it was ever published.

And if "One More Day" does indeed reset Peter's old Status Quo by magically (or cosmically) changing reality, then it means even Marvel itself has accepted that they have retconned and changed Spidey way too much.

[Sean Whitmore]

Don't forget the "genetic construct" retcon that undid cloning, which was subsequently re-retconned in Scarlet Spider Unlimited #1. That's one of those rare retcons that's so complicated, most fans just throw up their arms and say, "whatever."

Yeah, that whole thing was a pretty egregious example of continuity porn.


SEAN

[rockgrant]

And then Ben turned into a fairly well-liked character and they killed him anyway for no good reason.

I don't agree with this. Reilly HAD to die so that he could degenerate, proving once and for all that he was the clone and Peter was the real deal. Otherwise, all we (and Peter) have to go on is the Osborn's word, which isn't worth very much. There would always be that doubt in the back of Peter's mind, and the clone saga would never truly be over.

Besides, Ben died the way heroes are supposed to--sacrficing himself to save someone else. It was a necessary, dignified, beautiful death, and IMO one of the best moments to come out of the clone saga.

[Chris Nowlin]

If you think that the stories of the characters have to end, then comics are not the place for you. The whole point is precisely to follow the lives of this same characters or teams for decades, and one of the advantages the medium has it doesn't need to end, like movies, books or TV shows eventually do. If you or anyone doesn't want to continue to read about Peter Parker, it's easy to just drop the Spider-Man books.

Disagreed.

Endings nice. The series can then continue in some way. But points where it finally builds to something are not a bad thing.

And we stopped precisely following the life of Peter Parker a long time ago. When he became a married 27-year old and they realised they never wantded him to be 28. And then they realised the wanted Aunt May to be alive and a decade longer. And that Pete's battle with Norman should be a sysiphian struggle, an endless battle to be fought for all eternity. And that his stories are mythological in nature and must cycle and repeat themselves.

We're not following his life. Haven't for a long time.

We had one ending. Amazing Spider-Man #33. But there was room for more stories after that. So another ending would have been nice.

[Chris Nowlin]

Ah, fun times. :) But honestly, they could have just been two government bean-counters or human rights activists or something, and still wound up in a plane going over a hostile country. Even then, them being spies was only tangentially involved.

As for the Aunt May retcon, while I'm in perfect agreement of how lame it was, I don't know that I can call it the worst retcon, because at least it had an understandable goal in bringing back Peter's oldest (in every sense of the word) supporting character. So even people who don't agree with it can at least sympathize with their intentions.

You look at "Sins Past", however, and they pretty radically Peter's past and (unintentionally) made a joke of Peter's first truly romantic experience for the sake of a momentary emotional crisis. There didn't seem to be any long-term goal to the idea, unless someone thought Sarah and Gabriel would be great, well-received supporting characters who would stand the test of time.


SEAN

Sins Past is more upsetting, but easier to ignore. If it's never mentioned again, I can consider the related issues non-canonical and be done with it.

[Chris Nowlin]

I don't agree with this. Reilly HAD to die so that he could degenerate, proving once and for all that he was the clone and Peter was the real deal. Otherwise, all we (and Peter) have to go on is the Osborn's word, which isn't worth very much. There would always be that doubt in the back of Peter's mind, and the clone saga would never truly be over.

Besides, Ben died the way heroes are supposed to--sacrficing himself to save someone else. It was a necessary, dignified, beautiful death, and IMO one of the best moments to come out of the clone saga.

I liked Ben Reilly and wouldn't have minded him hanging around, but at that point they'd screwed up so badly, there wasn't much else they could do.

It was a great issue. But it comes on top of a hundred or so really, really terrible issues.

[Rolltideguy77]

I get so tired of hearing the argument that changing him will make him "old". Life happens and hell you cannot keep him in the same loop of life forever. I was glad when he got married and I was glad when May died and I was glad when Ben took his place and I was glad when he was having a baby. Then the rug was pulled out from under my gladness. Marvel has blacklisted the subject of Ben, May's death and baby May ever since. SO FRUSTRATING!

May died and it was a beautifully written story that made sense and was fitting. And hey wasn't her "soul" capture and imprisioned by some C-level baddie and Spidey had to free it?! If it was an "actress" wouldn't her freakin soul have looked like her and not May?

Ben Reilly was a GREAT character and I loved him as the Scalet Spider. What would have been wrong with having two similar characters in varying stages of life? They could have kept Peter as the one true Spidey and had his baby and continuted to fight all the usual baddies. Marvel could have gave Ben his own book and gave him all new supporting cast, badies, loves, etc. I liked it when he bleached his hair and was working at the Daily Grind coffeshop. Didn't he date Gwen's sister or cousin or something? Some might argue they would have been too similar and that's bull. The right writers could have made them VERY different. I hated that they killed him off (he was a New Warrior!) and he just fizzled into a pool of goo. BOO! Peter considered him a brother but NEVER visits his grave, talks about him, etc. Marvel sucks for all that and continues to suck because of it.

Mary Jane gave birth to SOMETHING. We know they induced labor and she gave birth and was told it was stillborn as Allison Mongrain makes he way out the door with something wrapped in a blanket, talks to it, puts it on a boat with a crib and makes way to Norman Osborn. What happened to Mongrain? Where did she come from and did Norman kill her? I can't remember those details. Now, wouldn't most hospitals have let the mother see/hold the baby? I have personally seen hospitals that would take a picture of the dead baby and give it to the mother so she would have something to remember it by. Morbid, yes, but thats a personal choice. They had no ANYTHING of baby May, just some BOO-HOO's and that's about it. They never even had a funeral or grave. Wouldn't you want to bury your DEAD CHILD?! Marvel's stupidity on all that tainted my opinion of them for years and obviously still does. Darn retcon's!

I hope May died in ASM #400 and this one is a clone. That would help ease some of my grumpiness about it all. Marvel should do more to drive up back issue sales/prices anyway. DC has done a great job of this IMO.

Ok I'm done griping now.

[Chris Nowlin]

I get so tired of hearing the argument that changing him will make him "old". Life happens and hell you cannot keep him in the same loop of life forever. I was glad when he got married and I was glad when May died and I was glad when Ben took his place and I was glad when he was having a baby. Then the rug was pulled out from under my gladness. Marvel has blacklisted the subject of Ben, May's death and baby May ever since. SO FRUSTRATING!


May died and it was a beautifully written story that made sense and was fitting. And hey wasn't her "soul" capture and imprisioned by some C-level baddie and Spidey had to free it?! If it was an "actress" wouldn't her freakin soul have looked like her and not May?

Ben Reilly was a GREAT character and I loved him as the Scalet Spider. What would have been wrong with having two similar characters in varying stages of life? They could have kept Peter as the one true Spidey and had his baby and continuted to fight all the usual baddies. Marvel could have gave Ben his own book and gave him all new supporting cast, badies, loves, etc. I liked it when he bleached his hair and was working at the Daily Grind coffeshop. Didn't he date Gwen's sister or cousin or something? Some might argue they would have been too similar and that's bull. The right writers could have made them VERY different. I hated that they killed him off (he was a New Warrior!) and he just fizzled into a pool of goo. BOO! Peter considered him a brother but NEVER visits his grave, talks about him, etc. Marvel sucks for all that and continues to suck because of it.

Mary Jane gave birth to SOMETHING. We know they induced labor and she gave birth and was told it was stillborn as Allison Mongrain makes he way out the door with something wrapped in a blanket, talks to it, puts it on a boat with a crib and makes way to Norman Osborn. What happened to Mongrain? Where did she come from and did Norman kill her? I can't remember those details. Now, wouldn't most hospitals have let the mother see/hold the baby? I have personally seen hospitals that would take a picture of the dead baby and give it to the mother so she would have something to remember it by. Morbid, yes, but thats a personal choice. They had no ANYTHING of baby May, just some BOO-HOO's and that's about it. They never even had a funeral or grave. Wouldn't you want to bury your DEAD CHILD?! Marvel's stupidity on all that tainted my opinion of them for years and obviously still does. Darn retcon's!

I hope May died in ASM #400 and this one is a clone. That would help ease some of my grumpiness about it all. Marvel should do more to drive up back issue sales/prices anyway. DC has done a great job of this IMO.

Ok I'm done griping now.

Entirely with you. That entire situation singlehandedly shattered my faith in Marvel and in Spider-Man.

I grew up a little that day; that was when I learned comics had writers and that they could make bad decisions.

Before then, I thought I was following Peter's life and the writers were just chroniclers of actual events. It wouldn't have occurred to me to ask if something made sense. It had to make sense if it happened!

Suspension of disbelief died when May returned.

But hey, May is dying again! Do you feel the drama? Do you fear we might lose her? I'd love to care again. I would.

[Rolltideguy77]

Exactly, I cared back in ASM #400. Now, WHO cares. You hit the bullseye when you said you grew up a little that day and realized that comics had writers. Me too. I would love for someone to say "You know what, we truly screwed up, let's do SOMETHING to try to set it right." There was no closure and it's a grudge too many Spidey fans have carried for years.

[rZi]

Exactly, I cared back in ASM #400. Now, WHO cares.

My thoughts exactly man. May had been on the ropes alot but that time it felt genuine...like it really mattered and it wasn't an unnessecary plot devices, fans CARED. Now no-one cares too much, which is a shame but thats what happens when you undo epic stories.

[mattx110]

the final chapter where they almost killed aunt may again was pretty good, and that came out of clone-may actress thingy...

[Sean Whitmore]

the final chapter where they almost killed aunt may again was pretty good, and that came out of clone-may actress thingy...

Really? I felt incredibly cheated that we never saw the battle between Spider-Man and the Goblin, except through Norman's crazy point of view where he was winning.


SEAN

[Chris Nowlin]

the final chapter where they almost killed aunt may again was pretty good, and that came out of clone-may actress thingy...

I actually think that's one of the worst Spider-Man stories I ever read next to the Gathering of Five.

[Mister Mets]

I actually think that's one of the worst Spider-Man stories I ever read next to the Gathering of Five.
I disagree, only because I saw it as one crappy nine part story, rather than two separate stories.

Granted, I kinda gave away the issues, and have very limited interest in ever rereading them.

[mattx110]

well, i really like insanely insane norman, and screwed but persevering peter. the goblin bombs felt like a real danger. jameson was very jamesony. the characters were all very in character. i didn't read the gathering of five. it struck me as silly, and too much like something lex luthor would do. genetic manipulation and costumed mayhem are norman's bag. quests for power involving aliens or magic are too luthory.

in today's superserialized decom world. you might have gotten 12 issues for this story, and maybe a flashback reality reveal on the norman-spidey fight. but issues 3 and 4 of final chapter really are great.

[ZT4]

There even pretending Ben died outside his house, not inside...when "Marvel" are willing to retcon Amazing Fantasy, that's sure as heck a sign they can do whatever they want.

[fanboyspodcast]

There even pretending Ben died outside his house, not inside...when "Marvel" are willing to retcon Amazing Fantasy, that's sure as heck a sign they can do whatever they want.

>>

Makes it easy to NOT read the title either.

They don't care about the history...why should I?

G.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

>>

Makes it easy to NOT read the title either.

They don't care about the history...why should I?

G.

That's my take on Spider-Man too...:evilangry:

[Matt Linton]

For thirty years they've been "pretending" that the Tinkerer isn't really an alien. For 40+ years they've been "pretending" that Captain America didn't fight Commies, and that Bucky died at the end of the war. For 25 years they've been "pretending" that Jean Grey wasn't really the Phoenix. Retcons are nothing new.

[ZT4]

What isnt new either is the life lesson that has slowly been killing buisness and credibility gradually and now entirely

"Retcons are stupid"

With Jean's death, we got a good story and progression for Scott greiving the loss. With her ressurection, it showed Scott can screw up a relationship thinking with his heart and head, we got the Logan/Jean bond and endless Cable storylines, with Cap...big deal, we got "Winter Soldier", a good retcon, out of it. With this? It just proves Spidey is a dry well

Don't reward stupidity.

[Matt Linton]

I don't think there's any evidence that retcons are killing the business, slowly or otherwise. You could just as easily say the lack of capes on superheroes is killing the business, and produce just as much evidence to prove it.

I'd put cost, distribution, accessibility, marketing, the majority of comics being aimed at an older audience, rather than a younger, more renewable audience, and the increase in other forms of entertainment far above retcons in terms of hurting the business, if retcons even are (and you could argue that they're more of a wash than anything, since they usually result in both a "jumping on" point for some readers and a "jumping off" point for others.

[Endless Flight]

I'd put cost, distribution, accessibility, marketing, the majority of comics being aimed at an older audience, rather than a younger, more renewable audience, and the increase in other forms of entertainment far above retcons in terms of hurting the business, if retcons even are (and you could argue that they're more of a wash than anything, since they usually result in both a "jumping on" point for some readers and a "jumping off" point for others.

I agree with this. Comic book companies are doing plenty of other things to kill their business than retcons.

[Blackfel]

First of all, let me just say in advance that this post is meant to be sarcastic. I realize some people out there don't know when sarcasm is being used, so it's best to clear up any misunderstandings before they begin.

That being said, I have to say that most of you are missing the possibilities here. Marvel has opened the door to an amazing new era in comic history with the OMD/BND storylines. Why, think of what they could do with all of the other characters in the Marvel Universe with the magic Mephisto brush? Take Daredevil for example. I think we can all agree that the story is getting too dark post-Karen Page. In the early days, Daredevil was happy and carefree, much like Spider-Man, only in yellow and black tights instead of red. I think Mephisto should step in and return us to that magical time of lighthearted fun by having Karen Page turn down that modeling job that turned her to drugs, adult films, and eventually prostitution and death. Matt Murdock would be completely different today, right? And trust me, readers WANT lighthearted frivolity set in the mid-sixties instead of tragic heroes with death and darkness in their pasts.

And how about the Punisher? Marvel has really let him go recently, with body counts in the hundreds. Is that what they REALLY wanted to do with him? In the beginning, the Punisher used rubber bullets to "Punish" evildoers. There was no death, no murder...just lighthearted fun! Who hasn't laughed when shot with a rubber bullet? I know I have. Do readers really WANT a dark Punisher? POOF! Mephisto steps in and instead of a dead family, Frank Castle's wife and kids were simply upset by the events in Central Park rather than killed. Frank feels the need to Punish the people who upset his family, and becomes the Punisher--the man who gives crime a time-out! And we can laugh, and laugh, and laugh at how wonderful it is to drop all of these needlessly dark stories and instead concentrate on what is important: lighthearted fun with wheatcakes. So carry on, Marvel! Use the Mephisto brush as often as you want to correct flaws in your characters. Here's one reader that would appreciate as much retconning as you can dish out!

Okay, the sarcasm is over now. As you might have gathered by this post, I'm not a huge fan of OMD/BND. I think it was a cheap trick, and I feel it was an insult not only to us, but to JMS's time at the helm. I'm not like some people though...I'll continue to read the comic that I've been reading since the mid-'70s. But I'll still be hoping that they change things back to the way they were.

Blackfel

[Jim Thompson]

First of all, let me just say in advance that this post is meant to be sarcastic. I realize some people out there don't know when sarcasm is being used, so it's best to clear up any misunderstandings before they begin.

That being said, I have to say that most of you are missing the possibilities here. Marvel has opened the door to an amazing new era in comic history with the OMD/BND storylines. Why, think of what they could do with all of the other characters in the Marvel Universe with the magic Mephisto brush? Take Daredevil for example. I think we can all agree that the story is getting too dark post-Karen Page. In the early days, Daredevil was happy and carefree, much like Spider-Man, only in yellow and black tights instead of red. I think Mephisto should step in and return us to that magical time of lighthearted fun by having Karen Page turn down that modeling job that turned her to drugs, adult films, and eventually prostitution and death. Matt Murdock would be completely different today, right? And trust me, readers WANT lighthearted frivolity set in the mid-sixties instead of tragic heroes with death and darkness in their pasts.

And how about the Punisher? Marvel has really let him go recently, with body counts in the hundreds. Is that what they REALLY wanted to do with him? In the beginning, the Punisher used rubber bullets to "Punish" evildoers. There was no death, no murder...just lighthearted fun! Who hasn't laughed when shot with a rubber bullet? I know I have. Do readers really WANT a dark Punisher? POOF! Mephisto steps in and instead of a dead family, Frank Castle's wife and kids were simply upset by the events in Central Park rather than killed. Frank feels the need to Punish the people who upset his family, and becomes the Punisher--the man who gives crime a time-out! And we can laugh, and laugh, and laugh at how wonderful it is to drop all of these needlessly dark stories and instead concentrate on what is important: lighthearted fun with wheatcakes. So carry on, Marvel! Use the Mephisto brush as often as you want to correct flaws in your characters. Here's one reader that would appreciate as much retconning as you can dish out!

Okay, the sarcasm is over now. As you might have gathered by this post, I'm not a huge fan of OMD/BND. I think it was a cheap trick, and I feel it was an insult not only to us, but to JMS's time at the helm. I'm not like some people though...I'll continue to read the comic that I've been reading since the mid-'70s. But I'll still be hoping that they change things back to the way they were.

BlackfelNice first post! No worries here -- I'm all for sarcasm! And goodoneonya for still sticking with ASM. I tried, but I just couldn't do it anymore.

[Tobias Drake]

First of all, let me just say in advance that this post is meant to be sarcastic. I realize some people out there don't know when sarcasm is being used, so it's best to clear up any misunderstandings before they begin.

That being said, I have to say that most of you are missing the possibilities here. Marvel has opened the door to an amazing new era in comic history with the OMD/BND storylines. Why, think of what they could do with all of the other characters in the Marvel Universe with the magic Mephisto brush? Take Daredevil for example. I think we can all agree that the story is getting too dark post-Karen Page. In the early days, Daredevil was happy and carefree, much like Spider-Man, only in yellow and black tights instead of red. I think Mephisto should step in and return us to that magical time of lighthearted fun by having Karen Page turn down that modeling job that turned her to drugs, adult films, and eventually prostitution and death. Matt Murdock would be completely different today, right? And trust me, readers WANT lighthearted frivolity set in the mid-sixties instead of tragic heroes with death and darkness in their pasts.

And how about the Punisher? Marvel has really let him go recently, with body counts in the hundreds. Is that what they REALLY wanted to do with him? In the beginning, the Punisher used rubber bullets to "Punish" evildoers. There was no death, no murder...just lighthearted fun! Who hasn't laughed when shot with a rubber bullet? I know I have. Do readers really WANT a dark Punisher? POOF! Mephisto steps in and instead of a dead family, Frank Castle's wife and kids were simply upset by the events in Central Park rather than killed. Frank feels the need to Punish the people who upset his family, and becomes the Punisher--the man who gives crime a time-out! And we can laugh, and laugh, and laugh at how wonderful it is to drop all of these needlessly dark stories and instead concentrate on what is important: lighthearted fun with wheatcakes. So carry on, Marvel! Use the Mephisto brush as often as you want to correct flaws in your characters. Here's one reader that would appreciate as much retconning as you can dish out!

Okay, the sarcasm is over now. As you might have gathered by this post, I'm not a huge fan of OMD/BND. I think it was a cheap trick, and I feel it was an insult not only to us, but to JMS's time at the helm. I'm not like some people though...I'll continue to read the comic that I've been reading since the mid-'70s. But I'll still be hoping that they change things back to the way they were.

Blackfel

Don't forget Captain America! Before you know it, we can have him back fighting nazis in the forties, where everyone knows he belongs!

[Jim Thompson]

Don't forget Captain America! Before you know it, we can have him back fighting nazis in the forties, where everyone knows he belongs!The Invaders! Yeah!:biggrin:

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

First of all, let me just say in advance that this post is meant to be sarcastic. I realize some people out there don't know when sarcasm is being used, so it's best to clear up any misunderstandings before they begin.

That being said, I have to say that most of you are missing the possibilities here. Marvel has opened the door to an amazing new era in comic history with the OMD/BND storylines. Why, think of what they could do with all of the other characters in the Marvel Universe with the magic Mephisto brush? Take Daredevil for example. I think we can all agree that the story is getting too dark post-Karen Page. In the early days, Daredevil was happy and carefree, much like Spider-Man, only in yellow and black tights instead of red. I think Mephisto should step in and return us to that magical time of lighthearted fun by having Karen Page turn down that modeling job that turned her to drugs, adult films, and eventually prostitution and death. Matt Murdock would be completely different today, right? And trust me, readers WANT lighthearted frivolity set in the mid-sixties instead of tragic heroes with death and darkness in their pasts.

And how about the Punisher? Marvel has really let him go recently, with body counts in the hundreds. Is that what they REALLY wanted to do with him? In the beginning, the Punisher used rubber bullets to "Punish" evildoers. There was no death, no murder...just lighthearted fun! Who hasn't laughed when shot with a rubber bullet? I know I have. Do readers really WANT a dark Punisher? POOF! Mephisto steps in and instead of a dead family, Frank Castle's wife and kids were simply upset by the events in Central Park rather than killed. Frank feels the need to Punish the people who upset his family, and becomes the Punisher--the man who gives crime a time-out! And we can laugh, and laugh, and laugh at how wonderful it is to drop all of these needlessly dark stories and instead concentrate on what is important: lighthearted fun with wheatcakes. So carry on, Marvel! Use the Mephisto brush as often as you want to correct flaws in your characters. Here's one reader that would appreciate as much retconning as you can dish out!

Okay, the sarcasm is over now. As you might have gathered by this post, I'm not a huge fan of OMD/BND. I think it was a cheap trick, and I feel it was an insult not only to us, but to JMS's time at the helm. I'm not like some people though...I'll continue to read the comic that I've been reading since the mid-'70s. But I'll still be hoping that they change things back to the way they were.

Blackfel

Welcome to the boards, fella! I, like Jim Thompson, admire you're sticking with BND, I wish I could be as resolute!

[lazlo_toth]

For thirty years they've been "pretending" that the Tinkerer isn't really an alien. For 40+ years they've been "pretending" that Captain America didn't fight Commies, and that Bucky died at the end of the war. For 25 years they've been "pretending" that Jean Grey wasn't really the Phoenix. Retcons are nothing new.

It depends on how you define "retcon." The Jean Grey deal isn't really a retcon, at least not in the way OMD is...actually, the way OMD might be if the official stance continues to be that Mephisto actually went back in time and changed history. Saying that there was something going on during all those Byrne/Claremont stories involving Phoenix (i.e. the "real" Jean Grey was lying in stasis underwater and "Phoenix" was not who everyone, including herself, thought she was), but the stories all still happened the way they were depicted is not the same as saying that something important never happened and that twenty years' worth of stories happened differently than depicted, if they happened at all. There's a big difference there. DC loves to play the "none of that stuff ever happened" bit constantly, and all it's done is make bigger messes than the ones the were supposed to fix, and damn near ruin concepts like Hawkman and the Legion. That Hawkman, a character almost perfectly suited to the edgier tastes of the late 80s and 90s, never caught on (especially after the outstanding Hawkworld seires from Tim Truman) is, I think, almost solely due to perfectly well-meaning editorial mandates like OMD. And I say well-meaning because, honestly, what editor WANTS their book to fail?

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Don't forget Captain America! Before you know it, we can have him back fighting nazis in the forties, where everyone knows he belongs!

Please don't go putting ideas in Joe Q's head, Tobias, lol!:rolleyes:

[Mister Mets]

It depends on how you define "retcon." The Jean Grey deal isn't really a retcon, at least not in the way OMD is...actually, the way OMD might be if the official stance continues to be that Mephisto actually went back in time and changed history. Saying that there was something going on during all those Byrne/Claremont stories involving Phoenix (i.e. the "real" Jean Grey was lying in stasis underwater and "Phoenix" was not who everyone, including herself, thought she was), but the stories all still happened the way they were depicted is not the same as saying that something important never happened and that twenty years' worth of stories happened differently than depicted, if they happened at all. There's a big difference there. DC loves to play the "none of that stuff ever happened" bit constantly, and all it's done is make bigger messes than the ones the were supposed to fix, and damn near ruin concepts like Hawkman and the Legion. That Hawkman, a character almost perfectly suited to the edgier tastes of the late 80s and 90s, never caught on (especially after the outstanding Hawkworld seires from Tim Truman) is, I think, almost solely due to perfectly well-meaning editorial mandates like OMD. And I say well-meaning because, honestly, what editor WANTS their book to fail?It's difficult to define terms like retcons, but I was under the impression that it's an unplanned (by the original writers) addition that retroactively alters prior continuity. The Jean Grey isn't Phoenix thing was a retcon as Claremont/ Byrne weren't planning on it at the time they wrote the Dark Phoenix saga.

[Jim Thompson]

It's difficult to define terms like retcons, but I was under the impression that it's an unplanned (by the original writers) addition that retroactively alters prior continuity. The Jean Grey isn't Phoenix thing was a retcon as Claremont/ Byrne weren't planning on it at the time they wrote the Dark Phoenix saga.Claremont and Byrne really didn't alter the character's continuity, though. It just brought to light things you didn't previously know.

OMD has changed what happened to the character in the past.

[Mister Mets]

Claremont and Byrne really didn't alter the character's continuity, though. It just brought to light things you didn't previously know.

OMD has changed what happened to the character in the past. Not necessarily.

There is the possibility that Mephisto simply altered the abilities of everyone in the world (and a shitload of documents about the unmasking) in which case it technically wouldn't be a retcon, as the prior continuity was not retroactively altered. Everything happened. It's just remembered differently.

I thought it was generally understood that bringing to light things we didn't previously know is a retcon. In his book Writing for Comics, Peter David cited John Byrne's revelation that Lockjaw was a disfigured Inhuman as a retcon.

[Matt Linton]

Lockjaw.

And everyone is focusing way too much on the Jean Grey thing. My point is that retcons are nothing new, even at Marvel.

[Mister Mets]

Lockjaw.

And everyone is focusing way too much on the Jean Grey thing. My point is that retcons are nothing new, even at Marvel.My bad.

Though I do think there is a slight benefit in getting a specific definition for the term, as many of us apply it to different situations.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

My bad.

Though I do think there is a slight benefit in getting a specific definition for the term, as many of us apply it to different situations.

Hear, hear, Mets...

[cpahl2000]

Please don't go putting ideas in Joe Q's head, Tobias, lol!:rolleyes:



He don´t need. He has his own and maybe a little help isn´t enough.When we least expect, Captain is back with the help or the friendly neighborhood Mephisto.

[lazlo_toth]

It's difficult to define terms like retcons, but I was under the impression that it's an unplanned (by the original writers) addition that retroactively alters prior continuity. The Jean Grey isn't Phoenix thing was a retcon as Claremont/ Byrne weren't planning on it at the time they wrote the Dark Phoenix saga.

Mmmm, I think you start to go down the proverbial slippery slope with that definition. If you take it to its logical extreme you could say that every time a writer comes up with some new character or subplot that's touted as a previously unrevealed secret or revelation from a hero's past, you'd have a retcon. Jean Grey's resurrection, while clumsy, did not undo any prior stories; every appearance of Phoenix in the Byrne/Claremont run happened exactly as depicted, but there were things going on that nobody was aware of at the time. For me, the term "retcon" means that chunks of a character's past have been rendered apocryphal, in the sense that they either never happened or events happened differently (sometimes drastically so) from how they were depicted in the comics. It may not seem much different from your definition, but I think the distinction is an important one.

[Mister Mets]

Mmmm, I think you start to go down the proverbial slippery slope with that definition. If you take it to its logical extreme you could say that every time a writer comes up with some new character or subplot that's touted as a previously unrevealed secret or revelation from a hero's past, you'd have a retcon. Jean Grey's resurrection, while clumsy, did not undo any prior stories; every appearance of Phoenix in the Byrne/Claremont run happened exactly as depicted, but there were things going on that nobody was aware of at the time. For me, the term "retcon" means that chunks of a character's past have been rendered apocryphal, in the sense that they either never happened or events happened differently (sometimes drastically so) from how they were depicted in the comics. It may not seem much different from your definition, but I think the distinction is an important one.I'd say that the difference between a retcon (as I define it) and a previously unrevealed secret is that a retcon contradicts prior continuity somehow. For example, Jenkins revealing that Aunt May's father killed her uncle wasn't a retcon, because it was never established otherwise. If Grant Morrison were to reveal in Batman that Thomas Wayne faked his death, and arranged his wife's death because she had cheated on him with Alfred, that would probably fall in the category of a retcon by contradicting previously established information in a way the original creators (and most subsequent ones) never thought of.

Generally, a retcon is a story built on a continuity point that the original writers hadn't considered at the time. In Writing for Comics, Peter David described the three types of retcons. The first is when writers tie disparate story elements together to make the mistakes seem intentional (IE- revealing that Ned Leeds's inability to fight the Foreigner's goons was proof that he wasn't really the Hobgoblin. Peter David also used the example of doing a story in which Captain Marvel recreated the universe, meaning that continuity goofs in titles like the Hulk were a result of the recreation, and would soon be cleared out. These are the in-continuity explanations for goofs.) The second is when stories put modern spins on pre-existing continuity (IE- John Byrne's revelation that Lockjaw was an Inhuman.) The final category of retcons is when stories establish a new and distinct continuity sometimes with the aid of an explanation in a continuity-altering event, such as The Crisis of Infinite Earths.

[Cyclopsj316]

I'll take a sarcastic stab at the "Marvel Universe with the magic Mephisto brush" gig....

Spiderman ends up fighting Loki down the line. In the end, Loki takes Mary Jane hostage. In order to free her, Peter must make a deal. He must reveal his identity to the world. Then, and only then, will he release m.j. Peter agrees, for M.J.'s sake, and the deal is done. Loki's mischievous plot to foil spiderman by revealing his identity, causes spidey to go into hiding, in order to protect his family. Pete had no choice when his aunt May took a bullet meant for him. Family comes first now. Loki wins..... or does he ?

Mephisto gets wind of what Loki has done. He is not pleased. Loki has undone a part of Mephisto's deal regarding the secret identity. The two argue over each others " retcons", and who's takes precedence. Soon, they go back and forth, waving each other's magic ret-con brushes in each others faces.

... meanwhile, Civilian Peter Parker is facing off against the green goblin. Norman tells Peter that he's waited years to kill him. Now that he knows his identity... then, suddenly, there is a flash of light. When it is over, Norman looks at peter, and says... " Who are you? what am I doing here ? " Peter looks dumbfounded. Before he can answer, another blinding light fills the room. When it's over, Norman looks at Peter, and says " Finally !!! Spiderman is mine !!!" WHOOOSH !!! another blinding light, and Norman looks confused at a weirded out Peter.

Simultaneously, off in the distance, you can still see Loki and Mephist