Men in entertainment

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Why are they such morons?

I know men.
Most are nothing like the stereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent buffoons you see in some areas of entertainment like romantic comedies, "chick movies" and sitcoms.

I´m hereby instituting my equivalent of the Bechdel´s Laws for men:

Rule #1 - Does he parade his splendid, bare oily ass on screen?

Rule #2 - Does he do or bring anything inteligent to the story?

Rule #3 - Is he ultimately proven wrong?

Bring it. :biggrin:

[jesse_custer]

There's hardly anything realistic about most romantic comedies, chick flicks, and sitcoms.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

There's hardly anything realistic about most romantic comedies, chick flicks, and sitcoms.


I´m not asking for realism.
i´m asking for movies where the guy isn´t a stereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent or a buffoon.

[Agent Helix]

I´m not asking for realism.
i´m asking for movies where the guy isn´t a stereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent or a buffoon.

What movies are you watching that this is all you see?

[Lester C.]

Why are they such morons?

I know men.
Most are nothing like the stereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent buffoons you see in some areas of entertainment like romantic comedies, "chick movies" and sitcoms.

I´m hereby instituting my equivalent of the Bechdel´s Laws for men:

Rule #1 - Does he parade his splendid, bare oily ass on screen?

Rule #2 - Does he do or bring anything inteligent to the story?

Rule #3 - Is he ultimately proven wrong?

Bring it. :biggrin:


We can only be talking about this man.:cool:

http://i37.photobucket.com/albums/e56/nipplash/jvd02.gif

[Eliseu Gouveia]

What movies are you watching that this is all you see?

Pick one.

....

[Agent Helix]

Pick one.

....


Pick one fucking what? What the fuck are you talking about?

[Cam63]

I'm really tired of the " smart, beautiful woman being married to, or is the girlfriend of the thick, insensitive boor " theme too.

...unless they make it genuinely funny.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Pick one fucking what? What the fuck are you talking about?

Have you at least read the fucking title of this thread?

[bringthenoise]

Have you at least read the fucking title of this thread?

Yeah, it's "Men in Entertainment", which doesn't help in the slightest. The opening post is slightly more illuminating. Really, if you hate these depictions so much, then I'd suggest avoiding rom-coms. Mostly because they're just shit in general.

[Dreadstar]

Have you at least read the fucking title of this thread?

Yes, but what remains a bit murky is just exactly what you're wanting to talk about. I thought I was the only one not quite getting it, but it appears I'm not.

[Agent Helix]

Have you at least read the fucking title of this thread?

I did. And if it's a gag thread, I don't get it. The joke is too obtuse for me. If it's a genuine question, then you clearly have either a very narrow frame of reference for films, or a very strange idea of the definitions of words like "incompetent" or "buffoon".

Shit, do you literally just want people to start listing the thousands of movies that aren't "chick flicks" "romantic comedies" or "sitcoms"?

[Cam63]

Platoon had it's fair share of incompetent buffoons.

[Dreadstar]

Platoon had it's fair share of incompetent buffoons.

Yes, but were there bare, oily asses?

[Cam63]

There was a party scene when Chris returned to duty after being wounded, but they managed to keep their dacks on.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I did. And if it's a gag thread, I don't get it. The joke is too obtuse for me. If it's a genuine question, then you clearly have either a very narrow frame of reference for films, or a very strange idea of the definitions of words like "incompetent" or "buffoon".

Shit, do you literally just want people to start listing the thousands of movies that aren't "chick flicks" "romantic comedies" or "sitcoms"?

It is not a gag thread nor it is an obtuse joke.

This emerging current in romantic comedies, "chick flics" and sitcoms of portraying men as tereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent buffoons is getting tired pretty fast.

[Cam63]

...or is Tom Hanks.

[Agent Helix]

So this thread IS just about that one narrow, tiny little part of "entertainment".

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Now don´t get me wrong, I´m all for equality.

If the guy is to show his ass, I want her to show her ass as well.
If they´re both idiots who are always wrong, I´m a-okay with that.
But if the romantic movie/chick movie/sitcom is just a vehicle to show that guys are tereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent buffoons who are always wrong, then they fail my test miserably.

[bringthenoise]

So this thread IS just about that one narrow, tiny little part of "entertainment".

But hey, the menz are getting it bad too! Except, of course, even when portratyed like this, they still come out as the good guy. Sure, he's a complete tool - but the woman still wants him, and once they're married... well, the fact that she wants to be able to... yanno, pay the bills and stuff, instead of acting like an overgrown 6 year old makes her the bad guy.

So, yeah, colour me confused.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

So this thread IS just about that one narrow, tiny little part of "entertainment".

You are entering troll territory.
If you don´t have anything insightful to add, please vacate the thread.

[Dreadstar]

This emerging current in romantic comedies, "chick flics" and sitcoms of portraying men as tereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent buffoons is getting tired pretty fast.

You just explained 200% more than you did in the title and the first post.

[Michael P]

It is not a gag thread nor it is an obtuse joke.

This emerging current in romantic comedies, "chick flics" and sitcoms of portraying men as tereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent buffoons is getting tired pretty fast.

"Emerging?" It's been the status quo for decades.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

"Emerging?" It's been the status quo for decades.

Well, I´ve only started to notice how bad it is recently.

[hichaec]

You know, even the worst romantic comedy/"chick flick" I think I've ever seen - Made of Honor - would still pass this test, because as big of a jerk as Dempsey's character was, he still got the girl in the end (i.e. he wasn't "proven wrong" about his jerkish ways - they got him exactly what he wanted).

Matter of fact, I can only think of one "chick flick" where all three items would be present - Bridget Jones's Diary - but there were two male characters in that anyway, and they had very different roles in the story. Does it still apply?

Also, probably more romantic comedies would fail Bechdel's Law than would fail your test.

As for Sitcoms, usually the ones where the guys are total jerks are also the one where there are guys who aren't especially handsome married to hot women (King of Queens, Everybody Loves Raymond, etc.) so rule 2 wouldn't be occurring there. Can't think of any sitcoms where the male leads are not only oafish, but also incredibly attractive and always parading around half-dressed.

[jesse_custer]

"Emerging?" It's been the status quo for decades.

Yep. And as I implied earlier, it is not the only problem with these genres. Women are also stereotypical in most of them. Dialogue is awkward and obviously written. With most sitcoms, everything of importance happens in an apartment or house.

[Agent Helix]

You are entering troll territory.
If you don´t have anything insightful to add, please vacate the thread.

Fine, here's insight.

One: Stupid, boorish, selfish, stereotypical males are funny. Hence why they're in comedies. We enjoy laughing at them because they're likable characters, and they make us not only feel better about ourselves and our own flaws, but because we like rooting for the underdog.

Two: These romantic comedies are 99.9% of the time solely geared towards women, of course they're going to present the women "better" than the men because of that.

Three: These genres of film ARE a narrow, tiny slice of the medium and entertainment as a whole, and you were apparently ascribing the tropes and clichés associated with them to all of film, which made no sense whatsoever.

Four: Your thread title, your first post, and your subsequent posts were vague, almost to the point of being unreadable. It clearly wasn't just me that thought this, so don't get your panties in a bunch when someone asks you to clarify your ramblings.

[Grazzt]

With most sitcoms, everything of importance happens in an apartment or house.

To be fair, that's probably a budget limitation. They only have so much money to spend making sets, after all.

[jesse_custer]

To be fair, that's probably a budget limitation. They only have so much money to spend making sets, after all.

Have you ever seen an old British sci-fi series called "Blake's 7"? It had an incredibly measly budget, but you got plenty of locales and effects. They weren't convincing in a realistic sense, but it was nice to have them. And what's great, the characters and stories were so strong it didn't even matter.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Fine, here's insight.

One: Stupid, boorish, selfish, stereotypical males are funny. Hence why they're in comedies. We enjoy laughing at them because they're likable characters, and they make us not only feel better about ourselves and our own flaws, but because we like rooting for the underdog.


They may be funny to you, but they´re offensive to me.



Two: These romantic comedies are 99.9% of the time solely geared towards women, of course they're going to present the women "better" than the men because of that.


Nothing wrong with presenting women as the hero, in fact most of my own stories have female leads. But just like I don´t like seeing women as mindless objects in comics, I don´t like the way men are portrayed in many sitcoms/romantic comedies/chick movies either.



Three: These genres of film ARE a narrow, tiny slice of the medium and entertainment as a whole, and you were apparently ascribing the tropes and clichés associated with them to all of film, which made no sense whatsoever.


Even if I didn´t point it in the thread title for lack of space, I did single out romantic comedies, chick movies and sitcoms in my opening post.


Four: Your thread title, your first post, and your subsequent posts were vague, almost to the point of being unreadable. It clearly wasn't just me that thought this, so don't get your panties in a bunch when someone asks you to clarify your ramblings.


You´re forgiven.

---------------------------//----------------------------

The point is that I find the whole matter incredibly sexist.
You may shrug your shoulders and say "it´s nothing!", but let´s switch genders.
Instead of the man being the resident idiot and the woman being the imaculate goddess who´s always right, the woman gets to be the moron and the guy, the perfect prince charming who can´t do no wrong.

Doesn´t it suddenly feel like we´re watching a 1950s movie?

[NickThompson]

Jeez, ANOTHER negative thread? Do people on this board like anything? I mean seriously, we now have threats about the negative portrayals of both men AND women! :)




Like said earlier, this is a long-term staple of entertainment. Doesn't really bother me to be honest, I'm used to it. I don't expect everyone to be perfect citizens of Earth :)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Jeez, ANOTHER negative thread? Do people on this board like anything? I mean seriously, we now have threats about the negative portrayals of both men AND women! :)




Like said earlier, this is a long-term staple of entertainment. Doesn't really bother me to be honest, I'm used to it. I don't expect everyone to be perfect citizens of Earth :)

Just because something´s been done for a long time doesn´t make it right or even above change.

Or do we have to go back a couple decades and see how black people used to be portrayed in entertainment?

[snarkbunny]

It is not a gag thread nor it is an obtuse joke.

This emerging current in romantic comedies, "chick flics" and sitcoms of portraying men as tereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent buffoons is getting tired pretty fast.

Eliseu - You mean movies like "Knocked Up?", right?

.

I´m hereby instituting my equivalent of the Bechdel´s Laws for men:

Rule #1 - Does he parade his splendid, bare oily ass on screen?

Rule #2 - Does he do or bring anything intelligent to the story?

Rule #3 - Is he ultimately proven wrong?


Okay, now I'm a little more confused on the rules - Bechdel's Laws are the rules were originally uses to decide whether to see a movie or not.

Are these then the 3 requirements that a movie needs to have before you see it or are these the 3 reasons that you won't watch the movie or the sitcom?

As for the actual movies or sitcoms, I'm not sure I should comment because I don't think I watch them. I definitely don't watch the sitcoms and the last movie that I think may fall into that category that I've watched was "50 First Dates"

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Okay, now I'm a little more confused on the rules - Bechdel's Laws are the rules were originally uses to decide whether to see a movie or not.

Are these then the 3 requirements that a movie needs to have before you see it or are these the 3 reasons that you won't watch the movie or the sitcom?

As for the actual movies or sitcoms, I'm not sure I should comment because I don't think I watch them. I definitely don't watch the sitcoms and the last movie that I think may fall into that category that I've watched was "50 First Dates"

Oh, I´ll watch the movies if there´s nothing else on tv (and I have nothing better to do). But I´ll be switching off a part of my brain to avoid frying my gray cells over the idiocy of it all.

I just find it hard to believe that women have to be mindless sex objects in men´s entertainment and men have to be idiotic buffoons who are always wrong in women´s entertainment.
Surely there must be some way to find a compromise where both parts can be treated with a minimum amount of dignity,right?
Right?

Or am I preaching in the desert again?

Lately, that´s all I seem to do...

[Michael P]

I suspect a set of similar laws for men would go something like this:

A movie is worth seeing if:

1. It has a man in it,
2. Who shoots his gun at something,
3. Which then explodes.

[Michael P]

I just find it hard to believe that women have to be mindless sex objects in men´s entertainment and men have to be idiotic buffoons who are always wrong in women´s entertainment.
Surely there must be some way to find a compromise where both parts can be treated with a minimum amount of dignity,right?
Right?

Yes, but the first one is easier and makes money.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I suspect a set of similar laws for men would go something like this:

A movie is worth seeing if:

1. It has a man in it,
2. Who shoots his gun at something,
3. Which then explodes.

Different requirements.
Those were the requirements for my romantic comedies/chick movies/sitcoms.

For my action movies, I want:

1- a decent story ("you killed my parrot, so I´m gonna destroy you " doesn´t qualify) :biggrin:
1- cool action scennes
2- decent performances

[NickThompson]

I suspect a set of similar laws for men would go something like this:

A movie is worth seeing if:

1. It has a man in it,
2. Who shoots his gun at something,
3. Which then explodes.

You know me! :biggrin:


Bonus points if you can get a car chase in there.

[Michael P]

Different requirements.
Those were the requirements for my romantic comedies/chick movies/sitcoms.

For my action movies, I want:

1- a decent story ("you killed my parrot, so I´m gonna destroy you " doesn´t qualify) :biggrin:
1- cool action scennes
2- decent performances

I don't think you quite understand the context of Bechdel's Laws.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I don't think you quite understand the context of Bechdel's Laws.

"I only watch a movie if:

1- it has more than 1 woman
2- the women talk to each other
3- they talk about things other than men.!"

[Michael P]

"I only watch a movie if:

1- it has more than 1 woman
2- the women talk to each other
3- they talk about things other than men.!"

Exactly. "A movie." All-encompassing, not genre-specific. Focusing on things it has, not things it doesn't have. And just a little tongue-in-cheek.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Exactly. "A movie." All-encompassing, not genre-specific. Focusing on things it has, not things it doesn't have. And just a little tongue-in-cheek.

Well, those are her rules.
These are mine. :wink:

[bfrank]

Jeez, ANOTHER pointless thread?

Fixed it for you......

[Charles RB]

A movie is worth seeing if:

1. It has a man in it,
2. Who shoots his gun at something,
3. Which then explodes.

And that is why Hot Fuzz is great.

[section 8]

"I only watch a movie if:

1- it has more than 1 woman
2- the women talk to each other
3- they talk about things other than men.!"

Avoid "Sex in the City"

I believe if a film is going to be stupid it must be Gloriously stupid. (I/e "Monty Python, Run Ronnie Run, Ect.) No matter what the gender of the protagonist.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I actualy liked Sex and the City.

Maybe I didn´t watch enough episodes, but in the ones I saw, men weren´t portrayed too miserably.

[section 8]

I actualy liked Sex and the City.

Maybe I didn´t watch enough episodes, but in the ones I saw, men weren´t portrayed too miserably.

The few Episode i saw were a bit different, about a good 48% of it was women bitching about men. But i did only see one or two episodes.

[Corrina]

I actualy liked Sex and the City.

Maybe I didn´t watch enough episodes, but in the ones I saw, men weren´t portrayed too miserably.

The husband really liked Sex & the City. He thought many of the men were portrayed positively, especially Steve and Smith.

[section 8]

I actualy liked Sex and the City.

Maybe I didn´t watch enough episodes, but in the ones I saw, men weren´t portrayed too miserably.

i was talking about the "women talk about something other than men" line

[Eliseu Gouveia]

The few Episode i saw were a bit different, about a good 48% of it was women bitching about men. But i did only see one or two episodes.


I have nothing against women bitching about men in that show (sometimes, it was actualy funny) , I just want a fair treatment for both genders.

Just like not all women should be braindead sex machines, in guy movies, not all men should be stupid, incompetent buffoons who are always wrong in girl movies.

[Black Atom]

Why are they such morons?

I know men.
Most are nothing like the stereotypically stupid, selfish, dense, incompetent buffoons you see in some areas of entertainment like romantic comedies, "chick movies" and sitcoms.


It's a tried-and-true formula that's worked since The Honeymooners. In comedy, you need a buffoon and a straight man. In most cases the woman or wife is the straight man because, well, the man is funnier (not that there aren't funny women, but usually such shows are built around male comedians, like Jackie Gleason or more recently Ray Romano).

There are cases where the roles are reversed, but for it to work, you need a really charming and funny woman. We, as a society I think, are a lot less forgiving of a stupid, selfish, incompetent women.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

The husband really liked Sex & the City. He thought many of the men were portrayed positively, especially Steve and Smith.

That´s great. Steve, Mr. Big and Kyle Mclachlan´s character (and his malfunction issues ^_^) were very saympathetic, now that I think about it.

i was talking about the "women talk about something other than men" line

There was that, but SitC focused on a lot more than talking about men.
Like the time Sam was ostracised for sleeping with another socialite´s boyfriend.I actualy felt sorry for her.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

It's a tried-and-true formula that's worked since The Honeymooners. In comedy, you need a buffoon and a straight man. In most cases the woman or wife is the straight man because, well, the man is funnier (not that there aren't funny women, but usually such shows are built around male comedians, like Jackie Gleason or more recently Ray Romano).

There are cases where the roles are reversed, but for it to work, you need a really charming and funny woman. We, as a society I think, are a lot less forgiving of a stupid, selfish, incompetent women.


Women can be great comedians.
I love The new adventures of Old Christine, yet Julia makes an ass out of herself lots of times.

In fact, both male and female characters screw up miserably in equal amounts. ^_^

[Eliseu Gouveia]

"We, as a society I think, are a lot less forgiving of a stupid, selfish, incompetent women."

I just wanted to address this too.
If you think about it, the women in Wysteria Lane are guilty of these flaws.
Gabi is selfish and does stupid things like sleep around with a minor,, Edie is the wicked witch of the east incarnated (- God!, I´m gonna miss her!), Susan is weak willed and clumsy beyond belief, Lynette treats her hubbie like a tennis ball and Bree is made of ice.

And yet there are very few female characters out there I enjoy more right now.
Flaws/weaknesses make a character human and sympathetic.

But if all they have are flaws, then they´re just downright pathetic.
Which is why I posted this thread. :)

[snarkbunny]

Oh, I´ll watch the movies if there´s nothing else on tv (and I have nothing better to do). But I´ll be switching off a part of my brain to avoid frying my gray cells over the idiocy of it all.

I just find it hard to believe that women have to be mindless sex objects in men´s entertainment and men have to be idiotic buffoons who are always wrong in women´s entertainment.
Surely there must be some way to find a compromise where both parts can be treated with a minimum amount of dignity,right?
Right?

Or am I preaching in the desert again?

Lately, that´s all I seem to do...

Eliseu, that is what BOOKS are for :) or DVDs. Then again, on of my favourite movies is Apollo 13.


.

Just like not all women should be braindead sex machines, in guy movies, not all men should be stupid, incompetent buffoons who are always wrong in girl movies.

Well, you aren't preaching in the desert, and I personally like my romantic comedies with smart, sarcastic leads for both parties. Which is why I tend to watch the screwball comedies of the 30's and 40's.

If you want the Harlequin made movies, the male leads aren't stupid, incompetent buffoons. Heck, two of my favourite movies to watch when I'm in the mood for movie romance are The Mummy/The Mummy Returns.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Well, you aren't preaching in the desert, and I personally like my romantic comedies with smart, sarcastic leads for both parties. Which is why I tend to watch the screwball comedies of the 30's and 40's.

I like that.

Part of rthe reason why I liked Moonlighting (before it started sucking) was the back and forth between David and Maddie, pure comedy gold.
They were both smart and competent and neither ever missed a beat.