why does quesada/marvel hate mj

[Tetsuo_man]

sorta a parody thread but mj's treatment has been sorta bad. First she is the one who makes the deal in omd in a very sexist adam and eve bite the apple sort of way then she disapears for months and then when she reapears she has sex with a douche bag of an a celeb. seriously this all seems messed up and a bit sexist and is another instance of a female character in comics being treated badly.

[Corrina]

MJ is now this way because Joe Q's mom hide her fatal illness from her dad because she loved his dad and wanted to protect him. And Joe Q thinks that was the right thing.

At least, that's what I gained from interviews about OMD from Joe Q. Kinda weird. I feel sad that he lost his mother to an illness but I didn't quite see what it had to do with OMD.

[NickThompson]

They don't, just the marriage.

MJ isn't in the book, I assume, to allow the supporting cast to develop. She'll be back, less than a year before #600.

[scout1279]

Obviously Quesada just hates joy, because Mary Jane is awesome.

I agree with you about the OMD adam and eve sexism, but as far as I am concerned, Mary Jane was the closest thing to a hero in that story. She's the only person in that story who made any real sacrifice.

Or

Mary Jane realized what a passive agressive douchebag Peter was at the beginning of the issue and wanted out of the marriage anyway. And I totally do not blame her.

[Tetsuo_man]

They don't, just the marriage.

MJ isn't in the book, I assume, to allow the supporting cast to develop. She'll be back, less than a year before #600.

She already popped up already during an issue in may. She was dating a really skeezy guy.

Mary jane makes her first post omd apearance in amazing spidey 560 as the girlfriend to hollywood superstar and douche bag bobby carr (serious enough that they are in bed the next issue and implied they've had sex). NOt to mention it's been hinted at that mj may know her pre-omd past meaning she would be sleeping with someone knowing she was married to peter and that the guy she's with is a freaking douch bag. It's also hinted that she's only with carr to further her career.

That treatment pretty much made me go what the heck is marvel's problem with mary jane even moreso than her treatment in omd.

[Major Comma]

Let the story play out and we may all be pleasantly surprised in the end.

[Sabrinaset]

Considering some of the stuff Marvel's been doing lately, I figured Quesada loves Mary Jane!

Oh wait ... you meant MJ Watson?

[Tetsuo_man]

Let me quote spider-fan. http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_amazing/561.html

She knows. She remembers the deal cut with Mephisto, she knows what she and Peter had and what they have lost. This is not something I'm getting from the subtext, this is not hinted at - it is explicit. Obviously, this is part of a larger plot that began in One More Day when MJ muttered something to the Prince of Lies. Evidently we are building up to something.

However, that's not the point. If MJ remembers everything then why is she with Bobby Carr? Yes, Slott draws the similarities between Carr's fame and Spider- Man's infamy quite well, but are we really expected to believe that MJ would be with anyone else if she could remember being married to Peter?

[ninjapeps]

Obviously Quesada just hates joy, because Mary Jane is awesome.

He still greenlit Annihilation despite not liking cosmic Marvel so he can't hate all joy.

[scout1279]

He still greenlit Annihilation despite not liking cosmic Marvel so he can't hate all joy.

Kidding, I think that there are still a lot of people who preferred Gwen and resent Mary Jane because of that. For better or worse, some of those people work at Marvel now, and I do think that colors things a bit. That doesn't mean that I think they aren't trying to tell the best stories possible, even if not everyone agrees with them.

I do recall Quesada commenting in one of the many roundtable interviews about the marriage that he didn't really like Mary Jane because she was always "too cool for the room."

[scout1279]

Let me quote spider-fan. http://www.spiderfan.org/comics/reviews/spiderman_amazing/561.html
She knows. She remembers the deal cut with Mephisto, she knows what she and Peter had and what they have lost. This is not something I'm getting from the subtext, this is not hinted at - it is explicit. Obviously, this is part of a larger plot that began in One More Day when MJ muttered something to the Prince of Lies. Evidently we are building up to something.

However, that's not the point. If MJ remembers everything then why is she with Bobby Carr? Yes, Slott draws the similarities between Carr's fame and Spider- Man's infamy quite well, but are we really expected to believe that MJ would be with anyone else if she could remember being married to Peter?

It was clear that she knows something, but I don't think she necessarily knows that she and Peter were married. She may just remember that Peter is Spider-Man, which she isn't supposed to know. I've even thought that she might just have figured out that Peter is Spider-Man due to having conflicting memories. (Wouldn't she remember that she lived in Avengers Tower? Or even just that she must have known Spider-Man well.)

There's also the fact that Mary Jane is still Mary Jane. Even if she remembers that she was married, she's not married anymore, and she's going to try and suppress all that sadness by moving on with her life and trying to have a good time, even if it's just an act. Personally, I wouldn't have put her in a serious relationship with anyone, but I don't think they did any egregious damage to her character here. (And it could have been way worse. They could have done what Breveroot suggested in his Spider-Man manifesto and gone the full on Spider-Man 2 route and had her engaged, which of course is ridiculous since Peter had a hard enough time getting her to marry him.)

[Ringslinger76]

I'm one of those that prefer Qwendy. However, I think Spidey has suffered from the same problem Superman has had since he married Lois. What do you do with the character romantically once he has his happily ever after? I know he can still punch the bad guys, but unless he cheats (and Pete and Clark would never do that in character) that whole aspect of the character is off of the table. I grew up reading Spiderman and I remember the wedding, but its like Moonlighting once Bruce Willis and whatsername got together.. it started to suck. Not as bad or as fast as Moonlighting, but it has been a battle of attrition ever since.
The best subplot era of Spiderman was the time he spent hopping from Betty to MJ to Gwen and hey MJ isn't dead.. I'm sure he'll woo her back and I'll hopefully enjoy that and maybe a second wedding all over again. Thats the thing about comics.. yeah he may punch Doc Oc a thousand times if you stick around long enough, but if you love it, you'll love it a second and third time just as much.


Now...

Don't shoot me.

I promise I don't work for Joe Q.

[Dazzler]

MJ is now this way because Joe Q's mom hide her fatal illness from her dad because she loved his dad and wanted to protect him. And Joe Q thinks that was the right thing.

At least, that's what I gained from interviews about OMD from Joe Q. Kinda weird. I feel sad that he lost his mother to an illness but I didn't quite see what it had to do with OMD.
That's uh...interesting. I've been reading a lot about how Joe Q's personal life has been affecting his editorial decisions. It makes me feel bad for him as a person, but really makes me wonder what those decisions have to do with his personal experiences.

Do you have any links to these interviews? It's just weird to me.

--Dazz

[scout1279]

I'm one of those that prefer Qwendy. However, I think Spidey has suffered from the same problem Superman has had since he married Lois. What do you do with the character romantically once he has his happily ever after? I know he can still punch the bad guys, but unless he cheats (and Pete and Clark would never do that in character) that whole aspect of the character is off of the table. I grew up reading Spiderman and I remember the wedding, but its like Moonlighting once Bruce Willis and whatsername got together.. it started to suck. Not as bad or as fast as Moonlighting, but it has been a battle of attrition ever since.
The best subplot era of Spiderman was the time he spent hopping from Betty to MJ to Gwen and hey MJ isn't dead.. I'm sure he'll woo her back and I'll hopefully enjoy that and maybe a second wedding all over again. Thats the thing about comics.. yeah he may punch Doc Oc a thousand times if you stick around long enough, but if you love it, you'll love it a second and third time just as much.


Now...

Don't shoot me.

I promise I don't work for Joe Q.
That addresses the issue of why they would dissolve the marriage, but not the treatment of Mary Jane as a character though.

Also, there was a lot more going on in the early years besides the love triangles that made it great, and the perfect evidence of that is that when they brought the love triangles back in the 80s, with MJ and Black Cat, the comics still weren't as good. An adult Spider-Man, married or not, is never going to be as good as a teenage Spider-Man, and like it or not, Spider-Man is still an adult. Whatever you think of BND, it's never going to be Lee/Ditko or Lee/Romita good, because what they did was completely new, and what BND is trying to do isn't. At it's best, Spider-Man can never be anything more than a copy.

[Ringslinger76]

You're probably right there.. nostalgia is a bitch to live up to. I do think you have a point.... MJ isn't damaged as best as I can tell by this.. only pushed to the back for a while. The reason to me that Lois and Clark worked for so long was that they were never comfortable with each other. Until they get married anyway.

Peter and MJ is different. Before the marriage though the girls would cycle in and out of Peter's life so no one would stagnate. I hope that the writers will let MJ come back with a clean breath of air and tell a new chapter in their lives that respects what has already happened.

Or it could suck.

[scout1279]

That's uh...interesting. I've been reading a lot about how Joe Q's personal life has been affecting his editorial decisions. It makes me feel bad for him as a person, but really makes me wonder what those decisions have to do with his personal experiences.

Do you have any links to these interviews? It's just weird to me.

--Dazz

Here you go:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12253

[Dazzler]

Here you go:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=12253

Thanks, scout.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that.

--Dazz

[TCJohnson]

She already popped up already during an issue in may. She was dating a really skeezy guy.

I don't think he was that skeezy, really.

He was a complete jerk to Peter, but then again Peter was working for the DB to get pictures of him in an embarrassing situation.

And when MJ was in danger he could have ran for it but he stayed behind to help protect her.

[Tetsuo_man]

I don't think he was that skeezy, really.

He was a complete jerk to Peter, but then again Peter was working for the DB to get pictures of him in an embarrassing situation.

And when MJ was in danger he could have ran for it but he stayed behind to help protect her.

Saving mj from danger was the only redeeming quality he had. But just the fact that this guy who is a jerk even in comparison to bnd spidey and have mary jane at least suggest that she sleeps with carr.

[TCJohnson]

Well, yeah, they are sleeping together.

But I really don't see Peter Parker being a jerk either.

[Tetsuo_man]

Does kinda make me think what makes someone more of a jerk being a paparazo or being a self-absorbed yet redeemable celebrity who hates paparazi.

[TCJohnson]

Ok, yeah, Peter Parker was a bit of a jerk when taking the pictures, you're right. It was the money being offered, but he got over that quickly.

[Corrina]

Thanks, scout.

I'm not entirely sure how I feel about that.

--Dazz

Me either.

I just thought it didn't really give any context about OMD and it made me want to hug Joe Q. for his sadness but....

I think it was TMI. Really. Because it's inviting speculation about his personal life and in a really emotional situation for him.

[Tetsuo_man]

Well i should at least be happy they didn't kill mj off. But then again I think quesada didn't go that wrought because they already tried earlier it in the decade and fan backlash changed it anyway.

[Nick Soapdish]

I'm one of those that prefer Qwendy. However, I think Spidey has suffered from the same problem Superman has had since he married Lois. What do you do with the character romantically once he has his happily ever after? I know he can still punch the bad guys, but unless he cheats (and Pete and Clark would never do that in character) that whole aspect of the character is off of the table. I grew up reading Spiderman and I remember the wedding, but its like Moonlighting once Bruce Willis and whatsername got together.. it started to suck. Not as bad or as fast as Moonlighting, but it has been a battle of attrition ever since.
The best subplot era of Spiderman was the time he spent hopping from Betty to MJ to Gwen and hey MJ isn't dead.. I'm sure he'll woo her back and I'll hopefully enjoy that and maybe a second wedding all over again. Thats the thing about comics.. yeah he may punch Doc Oc a thousand times if you stick around long enough, but if you love it, you'll love it a second and third time just as much.


Now...

Don't shoot me.

I promise I don't work for Joe Q.

I have a hard time believing that you can't tell interesting stories about a couple's relationship once they get married.

It might be more difficult and maybe Marvel doesn't think that they have writers that are up to the challenge. But really, that's only because even a lazy writer can manage to fake some drama by bouncing people from relationship to relationship. Which is not to say that all writing about people bouncing between relationships is lazy. It can be and has been done very well.

My collection starts right after the wedding and I think that there were several good subplots about the marriage which added drama to the story. And there were also some really bad ones. So I'm not saying that marriage stories = good writing, single stories = bad.

I'm just tired of the argument that you can't write any good marriage stories.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Its weird to watch a company wanna ruin a character so fast to propel another character up. And its FAILING. Its going down in utter shit. Sales are falling fast as no one wants to see Mary-Jane ruined to make Peter the SINGLE STUD GOD of comics again. Or see Joe Quesada live thru Peter so he can flaunt being single and brag about how exciting life is ! (Joe , I'm sure your wife loved hearing that ...)

Its just horrible shit. And with each and every bad act they force Mary-Jane thru (Sex with horrible guys , making her make deals with Satan) they lose more respect of the older readers who cared enough in the 1st place. At some point they'll come begging and crawling to the older fans to pick up the books. Its only right if older fans (like me) said Go Fuck Yourself.

I dropped the book back after 3 issues of BND. I have no plans on ever coming back. Not til Geoff Johns is on ASM and can fix this travesty of bullshit.

[Tetsuo_man]

Its weird to watch a company wanna ruin a character so fast to propel another character up. And its FAILING. Its going down in utter shit. Sales are falling fast as no one wants to see Mary-Jane ruined to make Peter the SINGLE STUD GOD of comics again. Or see Joe Quesada live thru Peter so he can flaunt being single and brag about how exciting life is ! (Joe , I'm sure your wife loved hearing that ...)

Its just horrible shit. And with each and every bad act they force Mary-Jane thru (Sex with horrible guys , making her make deals with Satan) they lose more respect of the older readers who cared enough in the 1st place. At some point they'll come begging and crawling to the older fans to pick up the books. Its only right if older fans (like me) said Go Fuck Yourself.

I dropped the book back after 3 issues of BND. I have no plans on ever coming back. Not til Geoff Johns is on ASM and can fix this travesty of bullshit.

I'd agree with all you're saying except just older fans getting the eff you. I'm 22 and I grew up reading a married spider-man and with how cool a character mary jane was. But besides that i pretty much agree although with another exception i doubt it will be johns who changes things because i'm not sure if he's pro marriage. anyway i would also further the whole joe quesada wanting to live through a single peter parker. It's damn near creepy that this is a guy who has a wife and daughter has peter's wife make a deal with mephisto to end their marriage and basically magically abort their daughter for the life of aunt may who is the mother figure to peter. I sometimes feel horrible for thinking this but sometimes i think joe quesada would want a similair deal made for himself. I feel horrible for thinking that but with him bringing up his mom anyway it just creeps me out. Still makes me feel horrible thinking about it even if i don't like what quesada's done to both spider-man and mary jane.

[rebelchelle]

I'm sorry, but Peter as a "Stud Muffiin" seems to go totally against character. I think it's a very bad decision to get rid of Peter and MJ's relationship. I don't collect the series any more. In my opinion, Joe has ruined Peter.

[NickThompson]

And its FAILING. Its going down in utter shit. Sales are falling fast as no one wants to see Mary-Jane ruined to make Peter the SINGLE STUD GOD of comics again.
Sales are higher than they were on ASM before it was constantly in events, and the average over the three titles is considerably up.

Or see Joe Quesada live thru Peter so he can flaunt being single and brag about how exciting life is ! (Joe , I'm sure your wife loved hearing that ...)
I don't see why his wife would care. He didn't say he didn't enjoy married life, he said his single life had more entertaining stories (IIRC).

[Tetsuo_man]

http://sarahofthedead.livejournal.com/301858.html
This live journal entry was done a while ago but it brings up some other stuff before omd that is interesting.

[Dazzler]

Me either.

I just thought it didn't really give any context about OMD and it made me want to hug Joe Q. for his sadness but....

I think it was TMI. Really. Because it's inviting speculation about his personal life and in a really emotional situation for him.

That was my initial reaction as well. I thought it was way TMI, and I honestly don't see how it really makes the reader understand the comic storyline any better.

It left me feeling a little embarrassed for him, honestly.

Sad, too. But kinda creeped out.

--Dazz

[Tetsuo_man]

Sad, too. But kinda creeped out.

--Dazz

Pretty much my reaction too. I mean he brings up his mother's cancer in defense of a decision he made in a story. On top of that it made really no sense or relevence to actually defend the decision.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Sales are higher than they were on ASM before it was constantly in events, and the average over the three titles is considerably up.

Sales for ASM for May were in the lowest at 74,000 . This is after ASM has burned nearly 50,000 readers and continues a spiral down. Now Marvel has tried varient covers , changing creative teams to give a sales spark and advertising 'New Era's begining. But after 15+ issues its failing. These sales tactics are no longer working.

The biggest reason I don't post in the Spiderman forums much is that... the Pro-BND crowd can see this thing is failing. But they hold to this "well its beating the sales of ASM and the 2 minor books that once came out !"

And thats not really true...those minor books like FND and Spectacular were books where most fans felt nothin much would happen. ASM was the main title and attracted the main "star" writer and story-arcs. ASM should basically as the Main Book and A# list driven book sell huge numbers , it should outsell DC Countown by a huge number. It should be near the 80,000-90,000 sales range each week. Not sliding to the 60,000 range.

But I suspect with each month and each slippin sales month ...pro-BND fans will continue to flaunt the combined monthly sales number. Even if the number is one which really is something the main book should outselff 2-1 or 3-1 each month.

I can't wait til sales fall to 50,000 a week and have some claim its a sales success. Its already funny now....imagine when it gets that bad. I'll be rollin on the floor laughin my ass off.

I don't see why his wife would care. He didn't say he didn't enjoy married life, he said his single life had more entertaining stories (IIRC).

The way it came across he said that being single was exciting and more happening. And he had more stress being a single man and that everything became so...boring and settled once he married. Something I'm sure your wife wants to hear... "how boring things are."

[Tetsuo_man]

Sales for ASM for May were in the lowest at 74,000 . This is after ASM has burned nearly 50,000 readers and continues a spiral down. Now Marvel has tried varient covers , changing creative teams to give a sales spark and advertising 'New Era's begining. But after 15+ issues its failing. These sales tactics are no longer working.

The biggest reason I don't post in the Spiderman forums much is that... the Pro-BND crowd can see this thing is failing. But they hold to this "well its beating the sales of ASM and the 2 minor books that once came out !"

And thats not really true...those minor books like FND and Spectacular were books where most fans felt nothin much would happen. ASM was the main title and attracted the main "star" writer and story-arcs. ASM should basically as the Main Book and A# list driven book sell huge numbers , it should outsell DC Countown by a huge number. It should be near the 80,000-90,000 sales range each week. Not sliding to the 60,000 range.

But I suspect with each month and each slippin sales month ...pro-BND fans will continue to flaunt the combined monthly sales number. Even if the number is one which really is something the main book should outselff 2-1 or 3-1 each month.

I can't wait til sales fall to 50,000 a week and have some claim its a sales success. Its already funny now....imagine when it gets that bad. I'll be rollin on the floor laughin my ass off.



The way it came across he said that being single was exciting and more happening. And he had more stress being a single man and that everything became so...boring and settled once he married. Something I'm sure your wife wants to hear... "how boring things are."

Well he justified it by saying a good kind of boring or some such. Also slott has said about his bet about bnd sales numbers with the guy named justice:
And the eighth most requested question from PMs and e-mails: Yes, I will be writing an Ode to the Newsarama poster known as Justice.
http://www.606studios.com/bendisboard/showthread.php?t=155997

[NickThompson]

Sales for ASM for May were in the lowest at 74,000 . This is after ASM has burned nearly 50,000 readers and continues a spiral down. Now Marvel has tried varient covers , changing creative teams to give a sales spark and advertising 'New Era's begining. But after 15+ issues its failing. These sales tactics are no longer working.

The biggest reason I don't post in the Spiderman forums much is that... the Pro-BND crowd can see this thing is failing. But they hold to this "well its beating the sales of ASM and the 2 minor books that once came out !"

And thats not really true...those minor books like FND and Spectacular were books where most fans felt nothin much would happen. ASM was the main title and attracted the main "star" writer and story-arcs. ASM should basically as the Main Book and A# list driven book sell huge numbers , it should outsell DC Countown by a huge number. It should be near the 80,000-90,000 sales range each week. Not sliding to the 60,000 range.

But I suspect with each month and each slippin sales month ...pro-BND fans will continue to flaunt the combined monthly sales number. Even if the number is one which really is something the main book should outselff 2-1 or 3-1 each month.

I can't wait til sales fall to 50,000 a week and have some claim its a sales success. Its already funny now....imagine when it gets that bad. I'll be rollin on the floor laughin my ass off.


But aren't you doing no different? They refuse to see it as a failure, you refuse to see it as a success.



I'm not particuarly a fan of the thrice shipping, I'd rather three titles with their own consistent teams and styles. But at the end of the day, the Spidey line is now doing more sales than it used to. If that's a failure, most companies would beg for failure :)

Plus, JrJr back soon with that Venom arc, sales will probably jump up with that.




Is BND a success? It's hard to say right now. Ignoring the fact that we only see sales estimates and that even then we're missing chunks of sales, we're still relatively in early days. Could go either way. To decide how it has done now would be based on personal opinions more than statistics IMO.

Of course the other "fun" debate is, why is it selling as it does? Are the sales boosted or hurt by BND, is it the creators, is it the thrice shipping? Hard to say. It's not as if the internet has ever been a good indicator of anything :smile:

[Tetsuo_man]

But aren't you doing no different? They refuse to see it as a failure, you refuse to see it as a success.



I'm not particuarly a fan of the thrice shipping, I'd rather three titles with their own consistent teams and styles. But at the end of the day, the Spidey line is now doing more sales than it used to. If that's a failure, most companies would beg for failure :)

Plus, JrJr back soon with that Venom arc, sales will probably jump up with that.




Is BND a success? It's hard to say right now. Ignoring the fact that we only see sales estimates and that even then we're missing chunks of sales, we're still relatively in early days. Could go either way. To decide how it has done now would be based on personal opinions more than statistics IMO.

Of course the other "fun" debate is, why is it selling as it does? Are the sales boosted or hurt by BND, is it the creators, is it the thrice shipping? Hard to say. It's not as if the internet has ever been a good indicator of anything :smile:

JrJr's presence didn't help the reboot in the late ninties. Just saying...

Also i'd like this to get back to exploring how Mary Jane has been treated as a chracter under omd/bnd at least.

[Ben Morgan]

To be honest, I only started reading Spider-Man on and off around Civil War, and even then I didn't really care for the character. I didn't necessarily like the decisions made in OMD, but BND is making me a fan of Spidey and I like the stories. I didn't grow up reading it, so I don't have that perspective.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

But aren't you doing no different? They refuse to see it as a failure, you refuse to see it as a success.

How is Brand New Day a success ? Its lost every bit of sales pop and has burned thru 50,000 readers . If thats a success ...whats a failure ?


I'm not particuarly a fan of the thrice shipping, I'd rather three titles with their own consistent teams and styles. But at the end of the day, the Spidey line is now doing more sales than it used to. If that's a failure, most companies would beg for failure :)

Its taken more marketing , more money and more $$$ to the mainstream talent to get the 3 times a week ASM . And when its barely out performing the ASM + 2 not as important Spidey Books thats not good. It should be blowing sales away..2-1....3-1 . If it dips below (and give it a few more weeks....since it seems to be closing downward) the old books that once shipped each month will fans finally start admitting it.

I think had sales stayed in the 80,000-90,000 range it was a success. This way it would be doing better than JMS's last arc before "The Other" and that it would be a 10,000 gain of regular fans...instead its not done that and seems to be droppin below it soon.


Plus, JrJr back soon with that Venom arc, sales will probably jump up with that.

I doubt it. Sales haven't popped for any creative team change since it became too frequent. Their last big $$$ pop sales wise would have been Mary-Jane's return. But they wasted it making her look like a stupied idiot who bangs ego driven Hollywood stars.


Is BND a success? It's hard to say right now. Ignoring the fact that we only see sales estimates and that even then we're missing chunks of sales, we're still relatively in early days. Could go either way. To decide how it has done now would be based on personal opinions more than statistics IMO.

Sales don;t lie...neither does the fact Marvel as someone posted weeks ago inflated numbers of 546 sold to make it appear as a sell out. Lets say...the goose has not laid a golden egg at this stage.

Of course the other "fun" debate is, why is it selling as it does? Are the sales boosted or hurt by BND, is it the creators, is it the thrice shipping? Hard to say. It's not as if the internet has ever been a good indicator of anything :smile:

Of course when Icv2.com gives you sales numbers...well...its kinda hard to debate it. I mean in a perfect world perhaps Marvel would have reconized the bad press online OMD got from online and saw how it would play into LCS. Maybe they would have saw those 50,000 dropping BND as a sign.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

To be honest, I only started reading Spider-Man on and off around Civil War, and even then I didn't really care for the character. I didn't necessarily like the decisions made in OMD, but BND is making me a fan of Spidey and I like the stories. I didn't grow up reading it, so I don't have that perspective.

I actually as a fan of Spiderman and someone who loved the character for years... and years (he was my 1st Marvel character I collected) I would tell newer fans to try Brand New Day. I'd push they try the series. To get it out there.

I wanted it to work. I thought with proper care BND could be something worthwhile. But one crazy thing was BND had no clue what was in Spidey's history and not. And one newer fan told me this...

'Why are they referancing a storyline from the 1960's ? I wasn't even born then and what makes them think I'd know what happened in ASM #65 AND #66 ?"

So you had bonehead moves. I'd hear some stories after I dropped the series. How Peter's web shooters failed so many times in so many issues . Or hoiw he's got women trouble and the ole Parker luck at fault as usual.

The one big money return was MJ. She had taken a big role in OMD and would likely be a return that would be HUGE. It would rattle Peter's world and we'd see some things where she had to live with the decision.

Instead.....nope...more crazy bullshit. Hey we gotta make MJ look like a big fool so no one will want her back with Peter Parker ! Yeah that will show those fans of that popular character . She maybe someone fans wanna see come back... FUCK EM...

Peter must be a stud .

[Michael P]

That addresses the issue of why they would dissolve the marriage, but not the treatment of Mary Jane as a character though.

That's basically to kick the people who liked the marriage in the face and say "No, we're not putting them back together. Ever."

It's less a personal hatred of Mary Jane than a continuation of the generally misogynistic and commitment-phobic attitudes that led them to dissolve the marriage in the first place.

[ninjapeps]

To be honest, I only started reading Spider-Man on and off around Civil War, and even then I didn't really care for the character. I didn't necessarily like the decisions made in OMD, but BND is making me a fan of Spidey and I like the stories. I didn't grow up reading it, so I don't have that perspective.

The thing is that the BND stories are fun. It's just that they could have happened without undoing the marriage and as older fans have said, they're not new stories.

[Ian Boothby]

It does feel strange not buying Spider-Man anymore having dropped it after OMD.

Hope they fix things in the future.

Here's a question, does Peter still remember his marriage to Gwen from House of M?

[Michael P]

Here's a question, does Peter still remember his marriage to Gwen from House of M?

I don't think he remembered it before. Aside from one perfunctory "woe is me" scene in the immediate aftermath, not even Bendis has picked up on it.

[TCJohnson]

I don't think he remembered it before. Aside from one perfunctory "woe is me" scene in the immediate aftermath, not even Bendis has picked up on it.

In the Quick Silver miniseries that followed, Spider-Man met up with Quick Silver and began berating him for everything that happened in the House of M.

[Lester C.]

I'm not happy about it, but Joe did this not out of spite for MJ but love for Spiderman.

[scout1279]

I don't think he remembered it before. Aside from one perfunctory "woe is me" scene in the immediate aftermath, not even Bendis has picked up on it.

I don't see why he would, since within the HoM main story, he didn't even have Peter mention Gwen. Bendis had Luke Cage try and call Jessica and asked Peter if he tried to call MJ, to which Peter just kind of expressed some sadness that being married to him held her back since she was a big movie star in HoM world. House of M: Spider-Man is really best forgotten anyway.

As for why "Brand New Day" isn't selling better, I can think of a lot of reasons, most having to do with the shipping schedule and the lack of consistency. However, it's also targeted at a group of brand new readers that I'm not sure actually exists (Is there really a market for Spider-Man comics beyond the 100,000+ readers that were picking it up just prior to "One More Day"?), and a lot of the things that will make the story make sense are only being revealed in interviews and not in the story (like the fact that there was a significant time jump of a year or two between the end of OMD and the beginning of BND).

[MartinRedmond]

He seems kind of sexist I dunno. I was talking about this to a friend who stopped collecting comics. I was like, I have like this feeling reading Marvel comics like they hate women for some reason. And he said it was kind of like that back in the days. But I feel it's way worse now. Of course, thankfully, you still have writers like Ellis or David who treat the ladies right.

Myself, I think Peter and MJ were a cute couple under Michelinie's writing. I don't understand the hateration. Getting laid isn't really something I see that should be a priority or a plot point for a kids adventure comic like Spider-Man.

[Your Imaginary Pal]

If you ask me I think he's in love with Mary Jane, She's his main thing.
explains alot don't it.

[scout1279]

He seems kind of sexist I dunno. I was talking about this to a friend who stopped collecting comics. I was like, I have like this feeling reading Marvel comics like they hate women for some reason. And he said it was kind of like that back in the days. But I feel it's way worse now. Of course, thankfully, you still have writers like Ellis or David who treat the ladies right.

Myself, I think Peter and MJ were a cute couple under Michelinie's writing. I don't understand the hateration. Getting laid isn't really something I see that should be a priority or a plot point for a kids adventure comic like Spider-Man.
There certainly seems to be an overriding frat-boy mentality at Marvel that I find kind of off-putting, and it's really bothersome that honest questions regarding gender and sexuality get brushed off all the time.

However, I do think there are several Marvel writers that get kind of an unfair rap for how they treat female characters. A lot of the stuff I read that is said at conventions and such make me not want to read some of their books though, especially Spider-Man. I know they're joking, but they never fail to leave a bad taste in my mouth.

I thought JMS did a good job of righting Peter and MJ as a fun, young couple. Their scenes together were what kept me reading through some really horrid stuff. Peter David did a good job of that too. And while it got a bit too angsty at times, I thought Defalco and DeMatteis did some good stuff as well.

If you ask me I think he's in love with Mary Jane, She's his main thing.
explains alot don't it.
You're saying that Quesada is like a little boy who has a crush in school so he goes around hitting the girl?

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I'm not happy about it, but Joe did this not out of spite for MJ but love for Spiderman.

Except that was 'His" Spiderman to a point. Back when he was a fan. Its wrong to back force a character against what they are now , to repeat the same things they did when you read em as a kid 30+ years ago. It rings hallow and sad. Thats the tone of "Brand New Day" which isn't anything Brand New. It should be called "Reliving the Past Day , or Trying To !"

To me its like the Superman character. Of course they spun the clock back on some things. But they realized they could only spin so much backwards to click. And with Superman you have the changes like the Kent's being left alive and Superman's marriage to Lois Lane. They left that since they felt "hey ya know , reseting the marriage would piss off those fans who like it. We'll just hire better writers and make it work."

Of course Marvel has room for sa married Spiderman as they do a single one. They have the Ultimate Universe (which appeals more to the younger fan , since well...he's Peter Parker to them. He's not even 18 and has tons of problems with girls ect ect)

I wish Marvel luck but the series thus far and treament of Mary-Jane shows a very lack of understanding the fact the character had grew up. Had grew up beyond what the EIC read as a teenager. Its why 50,000 readers said "Go Fuck Yourself" and dropped the series. They don't want this.

[NickThompson]

Of course when Icv2.com gives you sales numbers...well...its kinda hard to debate it. I mean in a perfect world perhaps Marvel would have reconized the bad press online OMD got from online and saw how it would play into LCS. Maybe they would have saw those 50,000 dropping BND as a sign.
They don't give us sales numbers. They give us a big disclaimer at the end, the first two words are "these estimates".

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12754.html

[SUPERECWFAN1]

They don't give us sales numbers. They give us a big disclaimer at the end, the first two words are "these estimates".

http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/12754.html

So how much is a rough estimate on losing 50,000 ? Maybe 10,000 off ? At the most ?

[NickThompson]

So how much is a rough estimate on losing 50,000 ? Maybe 10,000 off ? At the most ?
Actually since the estimates are lower than actuals according to people who see the actuals, it'd be the other way most likely.

[thespianphryne]

I think the whole MJ/Spidey thing is just a sort of cultural laziness.

There are a couple of concepts at play

1) conflict is drama

2) most of our mythology is about the quest to reach a goal and very little is about the living with the consequences of the goal.

Happily Ever After and He Ruled the Kingdom for Evermore is where most of our stories end. And we seem reluctant to explore the ever after and evermore and the work it takes to go into that. And so we keep reverting to concept 1: conflict is drama, because that's the easiest way to tell a story.

There's a lot of talk amongst writers and fans about how having iconic characters in committed relationships makes them stagnant because it reduces the number of stories that can be told about them. But I feel this ignores a very basic thing about us as people: that we deal with conflict better when there's someone in our corner always rooting for us. This is why the quest to find one's "true love" is so important mythologically - it's easier to come to the rescue of the world when there's someone backing me up. To me it's a sign of juvenile laziness to be unable to explore the mythological repercussions of what it means to have hero figures who are stable in their personal lives.

Also, keeping a marriage/relationship together when you have a high stress job is not easy; there's plenty of drama there . . . if you choose to be sensitive enough to be imaginative and creative about it.


-Das

[Ringslinger76]

I think thespianphryne has a good insight there. And I agree that post Happily ever after DOES contain a lot of story potential.. My wife watches Desperate Housewives every week. The problem with that is we as a society are more understanding of emotional termoil within the soul before marriage and not so much after.

Readers would go ape spit if Peter had a thought balloon pop up where he questions if he has what it takes to keep his marriage going and it would be even worse if he EVER in a thought balloon checked out Black Cat's butt with a wedding ring on. As bad as that is, if MJ did any of that, then readers would label her a whore or want to shoot the writer. Its ok for ABC's housewives to cheat and peek over the fence and have MAJOR marital problems, those characters don't represent what Spidey and MJ do though. Peter is a moral compass for a lot of people and MJ too. When they have a bad fight someone is an A hole or a B word. Having to create fights where they are both ALWAYS right is just not realistic, but for a writer, necessary to keep fans civil. They're either super happy which is boring or the fight and someone is a jackass.

Marriage and life with baby is great and I wouldn't trade it for anything, but you have to ask yourself, "can those stories be done and done well in about 24 pages a month and not stray from what makes the character what he/she is and what readers expect inside those 24 pages?"

I think we have a problem of reader expectancy. A lot of us have read him since we were 5 and like the idea of him growing up, graduating, getting married and even retiring in our lifetime of reading comics. The popularity of Ultimate Spiderman, Marvel Adventures Spiderman, and TV's Spectacular Spiderman says that there is also a large fan base that needs Peter to be his classic self for all time. As a dad, I would like my son to have that experience too. I don't think Kent will like grown up married Peter as much as what he sees on Saturday morning. He'll probably like Robin or the new Blue Beetle better. And please don't say, "well have him read Ultimate or Marvel Adventures." When I was a kid I would have rolled my eyes at you if you handed me Super Friends, Tiny Titans, or Marvel Adventures... I wanted the big kid books and thats what I bought.

Is one better than the other.. no. But somebody, Joe Q has to make that call. Believe it or not he was probably already getting crap for letting them stay married as long as he did from some group of fans somewhere. You can just never make everybody happy. Thats all I'm saying... nobody is perfect and for some people he did ok. Maybe not those with internet connections, but some people.

Don't shoot me.

[Nick Soapdish]

Actually since the estimates are lower than actuals according to people who see the actuals, it'd be the other way most likely.

Wouldn't that work both ways - with the original sales that it's being compared to as well as the current sales?

I think thespianphryne has a good insight there. And I agree that post Happily ever after DOES contain a lot of story potential.. My wife watches Desperate Housewives every week. The problem with that is we as a society are more understanding of emotional termoil within the soul before marriage and not so much after.

Readers would go ape spit if Peter had a thought balloon pop up where he questions if he has what it takes to keep his marriage going and it would be even worse if he EVER in a thought balloon checked out Black Cat's butt with a wedding ring on. As bad as that is, if MJ did any of that, then readers would label her a whore or want to shoot the writer. Its ok for ABC's housewives to cheat and peek over the fence and have MAJOR marital problems, those characters don't represent what Spidey and MJ do though. Peter is a moral compass for a lot of people and MJ too. When they have a bad fight someone is an A hole or a B word. Having to create fights where they are both ALWAYS right is just not realistic, but for a writer, necessary to keep fans civil. They're either super happy which is boring or the fight and someone is a jackass.

Marriage and life with baby is great and I wouldn't trade it for anything, but you have to ask yourself, "can those stories be done and done well in about 24 pages a month and not stray from what makes the character what he/she is and what readers expect inside those 24 pages?"

I think we have a problem of reader expectancy. A lot of us have read him since we were 5 and like the idea of him growing up, graduating, getting married and even retiring in our lifetime of reading comics. The popularity of Ultimate Spiderman, Marvel Adventures Spiderman, and TV's Spectacular Spiderman says that there is also a large fan base that needs Peter to be his classic self for all time. As a dad, I would like my son to have that experience too. I don't think Kent will like grown up married Peter as much as what he sees on Saturday morning. He'll probably like Robin or the new Blue Beetle better. And please don't say, "well have him read Ultimate or Marvel Adventures." When I was a kid I would have rolled my eyes at you if you handed me Super Friends, Tiny Titans, or Marvel Adventures... I wanted the big kid books and thats what I bought.

Is one better than the other.. no. But somebody, Joe Q has to make that call. Believe it or not he was probably already getting crap for letting them stay married as long as he did from some group of fans somewhere. You can just never make everybody happy. Thats all I'm saying... nobody is perfect and for some people he did ok. Maybe not those with internet connections, but some people.

Don't shoot me.

Thesp's post is what I was trying to get at, but not nearly as well.

But I wanted to make two responses to yours.

First, since when are any, but a tiny minority of superhero comics resolved in 24 pages (or 24 pages a month now in ASM)? It doesn't even have to be resolved at the end of the 6 issue arc. That's what subplots are for - to thread between the various major plots.

Maybe I'm just showing my age and inability to adjust to comics written for the TPB, but I remember reading plenty of comics that had underlying subplots that lasted well beyond the customary arcs. And I was reading those awful 90s comics.

Second, I don't believe that the Ultimate line is for kids or even aimed at kids. Maybe that's what they said for the first couple months, but that got abandoned fast. They aren't a junior set of comics to help bridge the gap between kiddie comics and the adult stuff. They're adult ... or at least as adult as the mainstream superhero comics that we're comparing them to.

I don't have a problem with Peter not getting old and retiring. He was just older than me when I started reading and he was about that same age when I stopped, even though I was much older. I do have a problem with the reboot.

And does that large fanbase need Peter to remain his classic single self for all time in all media? That was supposed to be one of the selling features of the Ultimates line - so that they could explore a single Peter as well as the married one in the regular line. Is Ultimate Pete going to get married to keep that variety?

Also, in those awful 90s comics, Peter did have doubts about his marriage - as did MJ. I don't recall Marvel publishing many letters lambasting them for it though. They did get blasted when he beat her.

[scout1279]

Peter never beat Mary Jane. He accidentally sent her flying across the room and into a wall while trying to beat Ben Reilly....when she was pregnant. Why do people keep making that mistake.

I started reading Spider-Man comics after the marriage. Prior to that, the only Spider-Man I was familiar with was the college aged Spider-Man from the cartoons. I never noticed the difference. I also never thought of the character as particularly youthful, since he was always older than me. When I became older than Spider-Man, it was weird. Not being married doesn't make him less old. I also read reprints of the original ASM comics at the same time. I don't recall liking one better than the other. Spider-Man was Spider-Man to me. (In the late 90s, I did prefer Untold Tales of Spider-Man to all the regular continuity titles, but Untold Tales was exceptionally good, and the other Spidey titles were exceptionally bad at that time. Also, I was had developed taste by that point, something little kids don't really have.)

My major problem with the current reboot is that it's not really classic Spidey. The stories may be better, and Spidey may have his sense of humor back, but in many ways it's just a bunch of middle aged men's opinion of a hip and relatable 20-something comic book reader. I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying that it's no more true to what Stan Lee and Steve Ditko did than anything else.

The Spectacular Spider-Man cartoon is the closest thing I have seen to what BND is supposedly trying to do than anything I have seen in any comic book since Untold Tales. First of all, Spider-Man actually is a kid. Second of all, he has more responsibilities as a 15-year-old than BND Spider-Man has at 25. Also, that show hasn't had a bad episode and I don't have to pay a dime for it.

[Nick Soapdish]

Peter never beat Mary Jane. He accidentally sent her flying across the room and into a wall while trying to beat Ben Reilly....when she was pregnant.

I thought that she got in the way and he hit her. I do know that it was the one time and that he instantly felt remorse, but I thought it was at least semi-deliberate.

And didn't he run off afterwards instead of checking on her?

I freely admit that my recollection could be skewed. It was over 10 years ago when I last read it.

Why do people keep making that mistake.

Because it was a really bad story that was a long time ago so people don't want to re-read it?

At the time, I liked a lot of the clone saga (except for having too many "Revealed: The Real Peter Parker" issues, going on too long and ending badly). But I hated how they tore Peter down as a shortcut for building up Ben. I'm pretty sure that was well before he hit MJ - like during the Pursuit storyline.

[scout1279]

Because it was a really bad story that was a long time ago so people don't want to re-read it?

I probably should have used some sort of smiley there. I was just kidding.

[Nick Soapdish]

I probably should have used some sort of smiley there. I was just kidding.

I still wouldn't have gotten it. I'm horrible at picking up jokes.

Although I did wonder why you brought up the pregnancy as it didn't really support your case. I thought it was just being painfully honest.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Because it was a really bad story that was a long time ago so people don't want to re-read it?

At the time, I liked a lot of the clone saga (except for having too many "Revealed: The Real Peter Parker" issues, going on too long and ending badly). But I hated how they tore Peter down as a shortcut for building up Ben. I'm pretty sure that was well before he hit MJ - like during the Pursuit storyline.

Yep...pretty much. Remember how dark and gloomy Peter became in "Pursuit" ? How he wrapped himself in a cocoon and cried like a baby over his fake parents dying ? Then here comes smiling , happy ...making jokes Ben Reilly !

It was supposed to show fans a "See heres a Spiderman who you'll love...he's the real deal !"

The tearing Peter down seems to echo Marvel's effort to tear down Mary-Jane now. Like Marvel decided to tear down Gwen Stacy's role years ago as Peter's big building block that defined him as a character . Her tearing down hurt that. But she was a dead female character so who cares. (Leob cared ...since he told in Wizard it ruined stories beyond Spiderman: Blue to tell stories about her. )

[ShaunN]

Dear Friends,

I stopped buying ASM after the OMD storyline. I hated what they did with the marriage of MJ and Peter and decided that I did not want to support the editorial decision. When it is reversed and MJ and Peter are back together, I may return to the series.

My own sense was that the strongest part of JMS's run on ASM was his portrayal of the relationships. He did great things with Peter and Aunt May and also added a real love and maturity to Peter and MJ's marriage. I suspect that he was not thrilled when he was ordered to do OMD.

Oh, and my sense is that MJ's request of Mephisto was that she remember everything about her life with Peter. Certainly, for Mephisto, that would be icing on the cake - having one person conscious of her suffering even as the other person in the marriage is suffering unconsciously.

Sincerely,

Shaun

[Scar Ace]

She already popped up already during an issue in may. She was dating a really skeezy guy.

Mary jane makes her first post omd apearance in amazing spidey 560 as the girlfriend to hollywood superstar and douche bag bobby carr (serious enough that they are in bed the next issue and implied they've had sex). NOt to mention it's been hinted at that mj may know her pre-omd past meaning she would be sleeping with someone knowing she was married to peter and that the guy she's with is a freaking douch bag. It's also hinted that she's only with carr to further her career.



Thats because Mary Jane is and always will be a party girl of a Ho