Doctor Who finale- Journey's End- *SPOILERS*

[Crowley]

*SPOILERS BELOW*


















Fun episode... plot holes and some problems with how it was handled, but fun anyway.

Davros is pretty goddamn awesome... He creeped me the hell out.

Okay so Tennant is still the Doctor, we got a second Doctor and third Doctor with 10.5 and Doctor Donna.

10.5 is human and seems able to tell Ros that he loves her even though Doc 10 seemingly can't. 10.5 goes off with Rose to live happily ever after... but she still seems to want the original, hopefully things work out.

Mickey and Martha seem off to Torchwood (I think they'd be nice additions, but I need to catch up on Torchwood) Poor Donna's brain can't handle Timelord thought so the Doctor does a mindmeld and wipes her memories of him away... I wish she was sticking around for a bit... I really liked her.

and K9 totally pulls an R2D2.

Overall I thought this was a really strong season of Who and I'm glad we get to keep Tennant around for some time. I look forward to finding out who his next companion (s) will be.

[Spike-X]

Definitely my favourite episode of the (rather weak) season.

It was just great big fun, dammit!

[Crowley]

Definitely my favourite episode of the (rather weak) season.

It was just great big fun, dammit!

ooh I liked the River Song two parter much better... that one had creepy great music, great glimpses into the future for the Doctor and some really hilarious bits.

For the most part I thought this season was fairly strong...

[Charles RB]

I'd say this was the strongest series with the exception of The Doctor's Daughter.

And blimey, that was a tragic fate for Donna, eh?

I'm hoping Mickey and Martha don't join Torchwood - Martha because there's no logical reason to switch from UNIT to Torchwood, Mickey because... well, he deserves better than Torchwood. (So did Martha, but Mickey's still uninfected!)

[Spike-X]

that was a tragic fate for Donna, eh?


I know! To have to go through the rest of her life being...that?!

Gah.

[Crowley]

It needs to be said... Catherine Tate, one helluva an actress. She was easily the most 3D of the companions so far in the new shows.

[Charles RB]

I know! To have to go through the rest of her life being...that?!

Gah.

Actually being killed would probably be less horrible...

[NickThompson]

I'm hoping Mickey and Martha don't join Torchwood - Martha because there's no logical reason to switch from UNIT to Torchwood, Mickey because... well, he deserves better than Torchwood. (So did Martha, but Mickey's still uninfected!)
They will. TW is only 5 episodes over a week next year, so I doubt they will be bringing in new characters.


Good two parter. Unlike previous (And good) world threatening moments, this one felt on a more epic scale. We saw around the world, we had lots of people pulled in. The first part was better, but the second held it up enough.



I'm not as big on Tate as some others. I liked her, but she kept going into irritating shouty mde (Which isn't her fault as such :) ). I preferred Rose. Having said that, her episodes with Martha really showed how undeveloped that character was.



And one thought. The only thing that could have made the German speaking Daleks better? Pointless subtitles :biggrin:

[Linkara]

LOVED the episode. Only two things bugged me about it: the cop-out with the regeneration. "Oh, I just transferred the changing energy LOL!" Lame. I also thought the idea of 10.5 was too silly. Sure, it gives Rose a happy ending, but just seemed kinda pointless.

Also on-screen acknolwedgment of the TARDIS requiring multiple operators FTW.

And having been a Donna fan since "Runaway Bride," I really enjoyed her this season and have found her to be my favorite companion of the new run. I was disappointed that her Grandfather didn't say, "If you ever find a way to fix her, come back and do it." I was also disappointed we didn't get a "What, What, What?!" scene for the end, even though I already knew the Cybermen were coming back for the Christmas special.

[Charles RB]

I also thought the idea of 10.5 was too silly. Sure, it gives Rose a happy ending

The way Billie played that scene, it doesn't seem like a happy ending at all - she doesn't seem very happy to get a knock-off copy of the Doctor.

[Spike-X]

LOVED the episode. Only two things bugged me about it: the cop-out with the regeneration. "Oh, I just transferred the changing energy LOL!" Lame.

I was very disappointed with the obvious bait-and-switch, but I'd forgotten about it ten minutes in.

I also thought the idea of 10.5 was too silly. Sure, it gives Rose a happy ending, but just seemed kinda pointless.

I thought more could've been done with it. Leaves the door wide open for a 'Two Doctors' special further down the road, though, doesn't it? And they've already pre-explained why he'll look so much older by then. Which he will; Tennant has aged quite noticeably in just the three years since he started.

Also on-screen acknolwedgment of the TARDIS requiring multiple operators FTW.

Yes. Very cool.

I was disappointed that her Grandfather didn't say, "If you ever find a way to fix her, come back and do it."

I was hoping he was going to ask to come along. He'd make a bloody good companion. Same with Mickey.

I was also disappointed we didn't get a "What, What, What?!" scene for the end, even though I already knew the Cybermen were coming back for the Christmas special.

Yeah, I was expecting, "What now?!" at the end.

[Spike-X]

The way Billie played that scene, it doesn't seem like a happy ending at all - she doesn't seem very happy to get a knock-off copy of the Doctor.
Yeah, they both played it a bit too subdued, I thought.

[Red Jack]

Liked it a lot. Not ever as much as Moffet's stuff but I do enjoy a happy ending. I think there's more to Martha to mine and I do hope she ends up filling in the blanks left at Torchwood. Mickey too. I never liked how he was treated in the earlier eps and I was glad they let him grow up and out.

I was fine with the bait and switch but I wish they'd added that he can only do it the one time.

Bring on River Song.

[Spike-X]

Mickey too. I never liked how he was treated in the earlier eps and I was glad they let him grow up and out.


Mickey has had a wonderful evolution as a character, and I hope we see more of him. Preferably as a companion.

[Charles RB]

Yeah, they both played it a bit too subdued, I thought.

I like that, it allows me to happily imagine Rose is now going to trap herself in a loveless union based on surface details while she continues to obsess and warp her life around someone she can't have and something that ended.

I also did this with alternate-Pete and Jackie. It makes me happy.

I hope we see more of him. Preferably as a companion.

He's been one.

And should be again, for longer (fuck off Torchwood).

[Spike-X]

He's been one.

Yeah, but that was for what? Two episodes?




The totally gratiuitous commando roll in Girl In The Fireplace is my favourite Mickey moment ever.

[Charles RB]

Yeah, but that was for what? Two episodes?


Four. Which, admittedly, is only three stories and the spin-off media haven't done any Doctor/Rose/Mickey stories.

What a waste.

[TCJohnson]

Four. Which, admittedly, is only three stories and the spin-off media haven't done any Doctor/Rose/Mickey stories.

What a waste.

Thought it was three...Girl in the Fireplace and the two cyberment stories.

[Matt Doc Martin]

It needs to be said... Catherine Tate, one helluva an actress. She was easily the most 3D of the companions so far in the new shows.

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_02/ctateDM2005_468x577.jpg

Yeah...I'd say...

[Red Jack]

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2007/05_02/ctateDM2005_468x577.jpg

Yeah...I'd say...

Holy Shnikes!

Where was she keeping all that?

[Crowley]

Liked it a lot. Not ever as much as Moffet's stuff but I do enjoy a happy ending. I think there's more to Martha to mine and I do hope she ends up filling in the blanks left at Torchwood. Mickey too. I never liked how he was treated in the earlier eps and I was glad they let him grow up and out.

I was fine with the bait and switch but I wish they'd added that he can only do it the one time.

Bring on River Song.

I agree on all points.

Martha would work really well in Torchwood I think.

I do like that they basically revealed that he was hanging on to Rose because he desired a family unit. I like Noel Clarke and I hope we see much more of him.

[kingdom2000]

Pretty good ep. I do get tired of the frequent deus ex machina moments though that russell uses. He probably has about 3 or more an episode.

Sad how they got rid of Donna. I would have preferred she or another "regular" died to give the last episode a tension, that truly anything could happen.

I wish they had simply killed Donna rather then do the erase memory thing. At least then could have seen the fabled anger and power of a Time Lord unleashed leading to the end of the 'Locs. Instead the genocide Dr. Clone commited was really a logical decision based on the circumstances that everyone was in. Sure later they presented as a choice of anger but it wasn't really. The decision made sense and I doubt few questioned it. Plus having the Dr. Clone do it allowed our hero's morality to remain intact avoid the Wonder Women quandry.

Overall, fun story though which is what Doctor Who is really about anyway.

[Ian Boothby]

And one thought. The only thing that could have made the German speaking Daleks better? Pointless subtitles :biggrin:

Or someone seeing them and turning to camera saying, "Here we go again!"

[cedardryad]

I cried like a baby at the end.

[Graham Vingoe]

Really enjoyed it to the extent that I wish I'd seen more of that series as a whole. I was completely wrong about Catherine Tate who was absolutely brilliant in Journey's End. the only drawback to the episode was the fact that it confused the hell out of my 7 year old son who kept asking questions all the way through "what did those Daleks say?, why are there 2 Doctors" etc

[Charles RB]

Plus having the Dr. Clone do it allowed our hero's morality to remain intact

See? Davros was right!

[king mob]

I agree on all points.

Martha would work really well in Torchwood I think.

I do like that they basically revealed that he was hanging on to Rose because he desired a family unit. I like Noel Clarke and I hope we see much more of him.

Clarke is on the verge of being a rather big name thanks to Who & his films Kidulthood & Adulthood, both of which are great films & show Clarke to be a very promising writer/director/actor. He'll be in the mini-series of Torchwood next year but that may well be the last we'll see of him in Who for a while.

[king mob]

Pretty good ep. I do get tired of the frequent deus ex machina moments though that russell uses. He probably has about 3 or more an episode.

It's crap writing from someone who is better than that. Davies said in interviews that he watched the episode 15 times before it was broadcast & he never noticed that he'd played the deus card again.

Sad how they got rid of Donna. I would have preferred she or another "regular" died to give the last episode a tension, that truly anything could happen.


There was no tension at all in it once it became bloody clear that the Daleks had some magic buttons that destroyed them in what was a prison cell?! but yes, it needed a death to give it a greater pay off than we got.


I wish they had simply killed Donna rather then do the erase memory thing.


That would have been fine, if only to ensure we don't have to suffer Tate's horrible gurning and her shite David Tennant impersonation.

I tried to like the episode after last weeks barking mad bit of glorious nonsense, but apart from a few gems the episode summed up RTD's era perfectly-great build up & a rubbish, rushed climax.

Still, the last 5 minutes were great with Cribbins and Tennant flexing some serious acting muscle in a scene that showed RTD's strengths. Shame it had to come at the end of a massively disapointing episode.

[Charles RB]

It's crap writing from someone who is better than that. Davies said in interviews that he watched the episode 15 times before it was broadcast & he never noticed that he'd played the deus card again.

He may notice and have some logic for why this is Good and Wonderful and Drama and Sexy and so forth.

Davies really pisses me off half the time because he's shown he's a good writer, he's a smart guy who knows how to bring in and manipulate the mass audience, he can recognise other good writers and all that... and then he goes and does something really stupid or lazy. And doesn't think it is. Why?

There was no tension at all in it once it became bloody clear that the Daleks had some magic buttons that destroyed them in what was a prison cell?!

Yeah, did they actually explain that? I remember a fuckload of babble from Donna but have no idea what she actually said - which is probably intentional.

[Charles RB]

Also, what the hell is this shit about "HE COMMITTED GENOCIDE!" and condemning the clone-Doctor for blowing up the Daleks? What else was he supposed to do?

And the Doctor and allies wiped out Daleks en masse in:

* The Daleks
* The Dalek Invasion of Earth
* Power of the Daleks
* Evil of the Daleks
* Planet of the Daleks
* Resurrection of the Daleks
* Remembrance of the Daleks

and only a few times did he appear bothered.

[Stressfactor]

And that's also not counting mass killings of Cybermen in various stories including "The 10th Planet" all the way back in the Hartnell era!

The Doctor's always had a bit of a ruthless streak in him with the exception of his 4th and 5th incarnations.

And seriously, I DO wish the show would get past some of it's seeming 'Youth Obsession'. None of the writers seem to notice how some of the best actors and best characters the series has had in the last four years are over 60 and yet none of them get to stick around and be companions. I guess they figure they're too old to handle the 'running around' stuff :rolleyes:

The episode was entertaining, it was big and it was loud but once you saw past all that it really didn't hang together as a coherent whole. And here's hoping that, since Donna's grandfather knows the truth, and despite the fact that he can't TELL her anything he can perhaps help to steer her onto a course that allows her to find at least some of that inner strength and compassion she found with the Doctor.

And really, if Rose hadn't wanted to settle for 'second best' Doctor then she shouldn't have snogged him with the original standing right there. But I did like the idea that original Doc, just like a stereotypical male, just can't bring himself to say "I love you".

And I STILL want the Doctor to meet Luke. I loved the bit in the first half where they're cutting between everyone's reactions to the Earth's teleportation across the universe and while everyone else is getting to their feet asking "What the hell was that?!" Luke calmly tells his mum that it felt like a dimesional shift. :biggrin: I also loved Sarah Jane telling off Captain Jack that she's trying to stay away from Torchwood because there are "too many guns". And although I LOVED seeing K9 again I wish it had been more than a tiny, button pushing cameo. Come on BBC, if you're going to shell out the money for the tin dog at least let him DO something!

[king mob]

Davies really pisses me off half the time because he's shown he's a good writer, he's a smart guy who knows how to bring in and manipulate the mass audience, he can recognise other good writers and all that... and then he goes and does something really stupid or lazy. And doesn't think it is. Why?

There's nobody behind him saying 'Russell, this is bollocks, sort it out'. As executive producer he's is the final say, so there's no script editor kicking his arse into gear.

He's still a great writer & one of the best working in British telly, plus his love for childrens drama (which let's not forget thats what Who is) is to be applauded. I hope he does return for the occasional script but please don't let him near a climax again.



Yeah, did they actually explain that? I remember a fuckload of babble from Donna but have no idea what she actually said - which is probably intentional.

I'm sure she said something about 'the planet Felschspoon', so she was probably tuned into an episode of Brass Eye. It was a sleight of hand to disguise the fact that was going on was a big screaming cop out.

[Charles RB]

There's nobody behind him saying 'Russell, this is bollocks, sort it out'. As executive producer he's is the final say, so there's no script editor kicking his arse into gear.

With luck, that means he'll have better stuff in the Moffat era.

It was a sleight of hand to disguise the fact that was going on was a big screaming cop out.

It didn't work.

[Alan Lynch]

I really hated the Rose/second Doctor stuff. Really hated it. There's much to like in the episode, but on first glance I'm quite disappointed in it.

[Linkara]

Also, what the hell is this shit about "HE COMMITTED GENOCIDE!" and condemning the clone-Doctor for blowing up the Daleks? What else was he supposed to do?

And the Doctor and allies wiped out Daleks en masse in:

* The Daleks
* The Dalek Invasion of Earth
* Power of the Daleks
* Evil of the Daleks
* Planet of the Daleks
* Resurrection of the Daleks
* Remembrance of the Daleks

and only a few times did he appear bothered.

The audio dramas explained this really well: every time the Doctor regenerates, all of the various aspects of his personality rearrange themselves so that some parts get priority over others. That's how you get a Doctor who will sometimes be erratic in his behavior yet still having a moral conscience (6th Doctor) or a Doctor who's a master manipulator of everything around him (7th) or one who's just fun-loving and completely anti-violence (10th). The 10th in particular isn't like his 9th, who seemed perfectly willing to destroy the Daleks because of the Time War. In this regeneration, he has more pity for the Daleks and recognizes them as lifeforms who are capable of breaking the programming done thousands of years ago by Davros.

[Linkara]

See? Davros was right!

What I find greatly amusing is that Davros' little speech about training his companions to be soldiers very much mirrors what a Dalek told him in an audio drama called "Jubilee" (written by the same guy who wrote "Dalek" in the first series and contained similar themes as that episode, only much, MUCH darker and creepier).

[Linkara]

Ignore this. Nothing happened here. Move along.

<.<

>.>

[Stressfactor]

or one who's just fun-loving and completely anti-violence (10th). The 10th in particular isn't like his 9th, who seemed perfectly willing to destroy the Daleks because of the Time War. In this regeneration, he has more pity for the Daleks and recognizes them as lifeforms who are capable of breaking the programming done thousands of years ago by Davros.

I wouldn't call him completely anti-violence. After all, when he first met Donna he ended up drowning the Racnoss Queen and all her children -- which rather horrified Donna at the time.

Also, Clone 10 had all the memories supposedly of Original 10 and he still decided that the Daleks had to die en masse.

And while the whole 'rearrangement of his personality with every regeneration' is true the Doctor has had a vicious streak in him more times than not.

The First Doctor bascially cruelly kidnapped school teachers Ian Chesterton and Barbara Wright because he was afraid they would tell someone about seeing the TARDIS even though Ian and Barbara didn't really believe what they had seen and likely no one else would believe them either. Not long after that the First Doctor was going to murder a primitive man in cold blood because he thought it would increase their chances of escape. Then Firsty was perfectly willing to abandon Barbara on Skaro the first time they met the Daleks. And at the end of "The Daleks Master Plan" he was crowing about his victory over the Daleks until his companion, Steven, reminded him how many of their friends had died in achieving that "victory". Firsty also left a young girl to a dubious fate in "The Massacre of St. Bartholomew's Eve", and aforementioned let the Cybermen die off and let their planet of Mondas blow up without so much as a blink.

The Second Doctor bascially created human-like Daleks with emotions which were "good" and saw him as a father figure and then he sent them off to incite rebellion and slaughter without even blinking an eye. He deliberately destroyed a shipful of Ice Warriors, again without blinking an eye. He led the wholesale destruction of an entire Cyberman invasion force -- without ever giving them the option of surrender. He deliberately caused the death of more Ice Warriors in "Seeds of Death" -- without even a second glance -- in fact, he was proud of his accomplishment.

It was only the Third incarnation that began showing some mercy and even then -- he organized the destruction of Omega without much care and in "The Curse of Peladon" he was quite content to leap to the conclusion that the Ice Warriors were to blame without hearing them out at all first.

Four also had a strong moral compass but even he tended to attack the Cybermen first and ask questions later -- unlike his treatment of the Daleks. He was also, later, perfectly willing to hold Davros hostage and threaten to kill him. He led Morbius and Solon to their deaths without a backward glance. He dispatched Weng Chiang, the Rutan in "The Horror of Fang Rock", the Fendahl, the Sontarans, the graf Vynda-K, Queen Xanxia, the Captain, and many more without a blink and there are others that he casually allowed to be killed -- at least one right in front of him whom he could have saved.

Five had the reputation of being the "sensitive" incarnation but even he pulled out a gun and actually used it on a Dalek in "Resurrection of the Daleks" and he left the Master to burn in "The Planet of Fire"

Six was rather ruthless -- his actions in "The Two Doctors" alone is really rather shocking. He allows Chessene to die and he kills Shockeye with cyanide and even callously utters a bon mot when the deed is done.

And yeah, Seven is well known as the master manipulator -- one who used anyone and everyone and led more than one person to their deaths.

So, like I said, the Doctor has never really been the altruistic goody-goody here.

[Spike-X]

Also, what the hell is this shit about "HE COMMITTED GENOCIDE!" and condemning the clone-Doctor for blowing up the Daleks? What else was he supposed to do?

Exactly! Hell, that's what I thought the whole 'theme' of this year's series had been leading up to; sometimes you have to fight back.

[Spike-X]

So, like I said, the Doctor has never really been the altruistic goody-goody here.

Kinda puts the lie to "I used to have so much mercy," doesn't it?




One thing I would have liked to have seen addressed is; what did the Daleks have planned for after they'd destroyed reality? The sole purpose of a Dalek is to kill anything that's not a Dalek. What does a Dalek do when there's nothing left to kill?

[Phil Hunn]

I never thought I'd say this, but... I'm actually going to miss having Donna around.

After that heartbreaking end to her run as the Doctor's companion (seriously, a literal death would have been preferable to the death of her expanded personality), I'm actually realising what she brought to the role: actually having a companion who didn't fawn endlessly over the Doctor, and frequently questioned him, was a pretty good thing.

As for the rest of the two-parter: I think the second part was a little bit weaker than part one (the way all of those cliffhangers from the first half were so quickly resolved was a bit duff, for example), but it still proved very enjoyable. Davros was not the messiah, he was a very naughty boy - as he should be - and crazy, giggling Dalek Caan was full of creepy, manic fun.

Plus, German-speaking Daleks! What more could you want? :biggrin:

[Matt Doc Martin]

Kinda puts the lie to "I used to have so much mercy," doesn't it?




One thing I would have liked to have seen addressed is; what did the Daleks have planned for after they'd destroyed reality? The sole purpose of a Dalek is to kill anything that's not a Dalek. What does a Dalek do when there's nothing left to kill?

Disneyworld.

[Spike-X]

Disneyworld.
"Just-think-of-how-short-the-lines-will-be!"

"You-are-correct!"

[Linkara]

Kinda puts the lie to "I used to have so much mercy," doesn't it?




One thing I would have liked to have seen addressed is; what did the Daleks have planned for after they'd destroyed reality? The sole purpose of a Dalek is to kill anything that's not a Dalek. What does a Dalek do when there's nothing left to kill?

Another thing that was brought up in the audio drama Jubilee. ^_~ Allow me to explain the plot to better understand it:

The 6th Doctor and his companion Evelyn Smythe (a 50 year-old history teacher) encounter some sort of temporal anomoly that duplicates the TARDIS and the two of them. The duplicates get sent back in time a hundred years while the primary ones arrive in modern-day London. They find the world run by a dictatorship and that bizarre laws have been put in place, including how people are no longer allowed to use contractions and that women are bred from birth to believe that they're nothing but supposed to be pretty and submissive to their husbands. Apparently, a hundred years ago the Daleks invaded earth and the duplicate Doctor and Evelyn helped the humans stop them. However, the humans that survived decided to model the new society they built after the Daleks, becoming cruel and murderous. While the Doctor has been portrayed in history and media as a sexy Indiana Jones-type and Evelyn his young, curvaceous companion, only the government knows the truth about him and how they'd oppose what they'd become. Furthermore, the duplicate sixth Doctor is still alive, his legs having been cut off to prevent him from escaping and the duplicate Evelyn dying of old age.

The only other remaining thing from the war is a single Dalek, its weapon removed and part of its casing cut out so that the people can torture it and dictators ask it how to be better conquerors and whatnot. Unlike "Dalek," this Dalek doesn't absorb human DNA and become compassionate - it's simply gone insane because of the torture and having gone without any superiors to give it orders and having to make choices for the first time continues to drive it mad. The 6th Doctor speculates that this is what happens when a society finally conquers everything as this alternate earth has - it turns in on itself, making insane laws to try to continue dominating something even if there isn't anything left to dominate. It becomes corrupt and completely, utterly insane until finally self-destructing.

[Spike-X]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured would happen.

[Crowley]

Kinda puts the lie to "I used to have so much mercy," doesn't it?




One thing I would have liked to have seen addressed is; what did the Daleks have planned for after they'd destroyed reality? The sole purpose of a Dalek is to kill anything that's not a Dalek. What does a Dalek do when there's nothing left to kill?

A better writer than RTD would have had the Doctor ask them that and not let a quadruple Deus Ex Machina climax the finale.

[Charles RB]

What I find greatly amusing is that Davros' little speech about training his companions to be soldiers very much mirrors what a Dalek told him in an audio drama called "Jubilee" (written by the same guy who wrote "Dalek" in the first series and contained similar themes as that episode, only much, MUCH darker and creepier).

I am annoyed I still don't own Jubilee.

Do own The Holy Terror by the same guy though, featuring the glory that is Frobisher.

Kinda puts the lie to "I used to have so much mercy," doesn't it?

"I used to have so much mercy, except when dealing with murderous conquering forces. Then I didn't have any and I slaughtered the fuckers. Now I have less mercy!"

See, if he'd said that, the Krillitanes would've run a mile.

Fun fact - on the Silurians DVD commentary, Terrence Dicks (Pertwee era story editor) cheerfully points out that the Doctor keeps doing these non-violent and peaceful solutions as part of the show's morality and they hardly ever work and he kills them all anyway. Even the crew notice!

The sole purpose of a Dalek is to kill anything that's not a Dalek. What does a Dalek do when there's nothing left to kill?

"YOU HAVE A 0.0001% GENETIC DEVIATION! YOU ARE NOT TRUE DALEK! EXTERMINATE!"

Again.

[Charles RB]

The Fear Forecast for the ep is up. (http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/s4/episodes/?episode=s4_13&action=fearfactor)

Coming this Christmas... "Cybermen!" yells Harry. "Whoah! Victorian ones!" whoops Samuel. "And who's he?" Adam wants to know. The kids are all excited again at the prospect of new adventures. But Mum and Dad sit and hold hands quietly, because they're still thinking about Donna and Wilf and the lonely Doctor.

[king mob]

A better writer than RTD would have had the Doctor ask them that and not let a quadruple Deus Ex Machina climax the finale.

What's really annoying is that RTD is a brilliant writer, Queer As Folk & Bob & Rose showed that and then some. He's more than capable of sitting down and working out a more satisfying ending than 'Donna flicks a handy switch & kills all the Daleks'.

[Spike-X]

Maybe he's just not a good science fiction writer?

[king mob]

Maybe he's just not a good science fiction writer?

I'd say yes then he'll turn out stuff like Midnight which was a superb bit of telefantasy.

[Spike-X]

I'd say yes then he'll turn out stuff like Midnight which was a superb bit of telefantasy.
Interesting, 'cause I didn't like that one very much.

[king mob]

I loved it because it seemed like it was something Davies wrote before settling on the 'aren't humans brillllllllllaaaaaannnnttt' nonsense that's become a tired cliche in the programme.

[Spike-X]

Yeah, I did like that it deviated from his usual, blatantly pandering, "Oh, aren't normal, ordinary boring people just the most wonderful people ever? Yes, I mean all you people out there in audience land! Smooches!" approach. I just think it went a bit too far in the other direction. Everyone was a shrill, screechy, 1-dimensional caricature.

[Alan Lynch]

I never thought I'd say this, but... I'm actually going to miss having Donna around.

After that heartbreaking end to her run as the Doctor's companion (seriously, a literal death would have been preferable to the death of her expanded personality), I'm actually realising what she brought to the role: actually having a companion who didn't fawn endlessly over the Doctor, and frequently questioned him, was a pretty good thing.
I expected that sort of companion this time round, and I was delighted that it actually happened. Donna is probably my favourite of all the new companions (well, regular ones. She's no Jack Harkness), and I think her ending is one of the reasons I'm so disappointed in the finale. She deserved much, much better than that - an actual choice would've been nice.
Maybe he's just not a good science fiction writer?
I had the exact same thought when talking about Moffat taking over. He seems to relish the high concept stuff possible on a show as open as this, wheras RTD was very much all about character first with some aliens shoehorned in at the end. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but I think it restricts him more than it does Moffat.
I'd say yes then he'll turn out stuff like Midnight which was a superb bit of telefantasy.
I did enjoy that episode, but the sci-fi element takes a back seat again doesn't it? Midnight is probably more character driven than any other episode this season, which is why it's one of Davies' arguably stronger efforts.

[Spike-X]

She deserved much, much better than that...

She really did, didn't she?

[Alan Lynch]

She really did, didn't she?
And it didn't fit with the whole idea that the Doctor would've offered Davros the option, saved the Daleks, while just telling Donna "this is how it is". He was a dick, and it kind of came out of nowhere. I felt awful for Donna, and not in the way I would had she died.

[Charles RB]

Yeah, I did like that it deviated from his usual, blatantly pandering, "Oh, aren't normal, ordinary boring people just the most wonderful people ever? Yes, I mean all you people out there in audience land! Smooches!" approach.

Oh god, that gets on my nerves. It especially gets on my nerves when the Doctor says that but the show continuously has people leaving normal ordinary lives with glee or normal ordinary people being so fucking stupid they didn't know the Sycorax had invaded because they were drunk/thought everyone hallucinated two months of ghosts followed by open invasion of cities.

I want to kill Russell's dog and yell "I AM THE AUDIENCE!" in the hope he'll stop that.

[NickThompson]

Yeah, I did like that it deviated from his usual, blatantly pandering, "Oh, aren't normal, ordinary boring people just the most wonderful people ever? Yes, I mean all you people out there in audience land! Smooches!" approach. I just think it went a bit too far in the other direction. Everyone was a shrill, screechy, 1-dimensional caricature.
Eh, I like that. Every other show tells us that we suck, The Doctor tells us we are awesome. And we are!

[Charles RB]

The Doctor tells us we are awesome. And we are!

No we're not, we suck and all our works are worthless. That's why we can't do anything unless he's around to help us and every big scientific idea we do goes wrong & he has to stop it.

[king mob]

No we're not, we suck and all our works are worthless. That's why we can't do anything unless he's around to help us and every big scientific idea we do goes wrong & he has to stop it.


Which is exactly the point of Turn Left when we see a Earth without the Doctor and we all end up voting for far right nutters who infringe upon our freedoms...

Of course that would never happen in reality.

[Charles RB]

See, RTD himself is saying humanity sucks and we can't do shit ourselves.

And being a race of gibbering insane killing machines is our destiny.