What do you want to see in Gail's WONDER WOMAN?

[4PointOh]

I was wondering if there was anything in particular people wanted to see as a story element in Gail's WONDER WOMAN.

I actually have a bit of a laundry list:

1. To see Diana go up against an immensely powerful foe and manage a clear, decisive victory.

2. To see Diana's Rogues Gallery developed into a formidable, frightening force of evil. There seem to be so many ripe for reimagining (Silver Swan, The Mask, Gundra the Valkyrie, Angle Man, The Duke of Deception, Minister Blizzard, Dr. Cyber, Dr. Poison, Osira, etc, etc, etc)

3. To finally understand if the Sword of Hephaestus, as seen in KINGDOM COME, is actually in-continuity and a part of Diana's current arsenal.

4. To get a clear understanding of Diana's powers. For example, what is "Sisterhood with Fire" (granted to Diana by Hestia) and how does Diana use it?

5. To see Diana explain to Athena that she forsook her for Kane. And to know whether or not Kane's intentions are pure.

6. To see Genocide unleashed and see the horrible way in which Diana becomes aware of its existence.

7. To see this male Wonder Woman fellow and find out what that's all about.

8. Will she or won't she in regard to Tom Tresser.

9. To see Donna and Cassie and Hippolyta and Phillipus and Artemis and Nu'Bia and The Amazons and Tamika the Nurse and James Allen Yarbrough again.

10. A team-up with Black Canary. They would seem to have something in common both being daughters of heroes of the JSA.

That's it for now.

:biggrin:

[DubipR]

To beat the snot out of Rachel Ray.

[the4thpip]

I second the Rachel Ray thing and demand the return of the Red Centipede!

[Sabrinaset]

I want to see Etta Candy shot by Deathstroke, and Diana making a deal with Neron to save her life, which automatically resets her continuity, and ...


...what?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I want to see Etta Candy shot by Deathstroke, and Diana making a deal with Neron to save her life, which automatically resets her continuity, and ...


...what?

Will she end up married to Mary Jane?

[Lester C.]

Question: What do you want to see in Gail's Wonder Woman?:confused:

Answer: Josh!:evilsmile:

[K-DoG7p7]

Drunk WonderWoman!!

Fiction MUST imitate Realife!

[4PointOh]

I want to see Etta Candy shot by Deathstroke, and Diana making a deal with Neron to save her life, which automatically resets her continuity, and ...


...what?

What? Hell no. Etta Candy is gangsta! Read those old Marston stories. Etta was not some dummy/weakling. She was the original Wonder Girl!

[Lester C.]

Drunk WonderWoman!!

Fiction MUST imitate Realife!

If she's drunk you can add Creote and Savant to the list.:smile:

[TCJohnson]

Question: What do you want to see in Gail's Wonder Woman?:confused:

Answer: Josh!:evilsmile:

Yes!


10 characters.

[Lester C.]

Yes!


10 characters.

Just for that I'm going to ask Gail to throw Ted Kord in there. :cool:

[4PointOh]

Who is Josh???

[K-DoG7p7]

Who is Josh???

the lowest point you can get!

ZIIING!

[ElvisGuy]

A Slumber Party issue complete with Gorilla makeovers !

[Gail Simone]

More Amazon Attacks!

[4PointOh]

More Amazon Attacks!

You're making me gag.

:biggrin:

[Ben Morgan]

So who is Josh?

[Sabrinaset]

We need more Bendis in Wonder Woman!

[The Ray]

We need more Bendis in Wonder Woman!

And Beland. Gail, Ask Aaron to draw Bendis, Beland and Lily in Wonder Woman.

[Tetsuo_man]

Hmm good question. Maybe more dr. psycho, i love gial's version of dr. psycho.

[ElvisGuy]

More Amazon Attacks!

Nurse !..oh Nurse !!..Gail is out of her room again !

[Lester C.]

So who is Josh?


A legendary lover of wine, women and song, all of which, he's been idolized in.:cool:

[troy2g1]

I would love to see Hippolyta removed from being the JSA Wonder Woman. That honor should be reserved for Diana -- her immortality would allow her to have served with JSA until they were disbanned (maybe insert the I-Ching era here) and come back to start the JLA with Superman and Batman.

Other than that everything 4PointOh said works for me.

[Sabrinaset]

Gail, what would Wonder Woman do if she met someone who stole library books and stepped on frogs?

[4PointOh]

I would love to see Hippolyta removed from being the JSA Wonder Woman. That honor should be reserved for Diana -- her immortality would allow her to have served with JSA until they were disbanned (maybe insert the I-Ching era here) and come back to start the JLA with Superman and Batman.

Other than that everything 4PointOh said works for me.

OMG, if someone would retcon Hippolyta OUT of the Wonder Woman role, that would be AWESOME and I would be eternally, unbelievably grateful. But I think the idea is WAY too precious to Geoff Johns to be edited out.

[Lester C.]

Gail, what would Wonder Woman do if she met someone who stole library books and stepped on frogs?

Throw herself at him.

[troy2g1]

OMG, if someone would retcon Hippolyta OUT of the Wonder Woman role, that would be AWESOME and I would be eternally, unbelievably grateful. But I think the idea is WAY too precious to Geoff Johns to be edited out.

What a terrible idea.

Hippolyta assuming the mantle of Wonder Woman as penance after her daughters death and taking her place in the JLA (or even serving with the JSA of that time period) is a great idea. But the whole time travel story is horrible especially because chronologically it makes Hippolyta the original Wonder Woman which detracts from Diana.

Imagine there was a previous Batman or Superman? I guarantee you that Geoff would never allow that. I wonder why he wants it so bad for Wonder Woman.

Things that make you go "hmmmm?"

[4PointOh]

What a terrible idea.

Hippolyta assuming the mantle of Wonder Woman as penance after her daughters death and taking her place in the JLA (or even serving with the JSA of that time period) is a great idea. But the whole time travel story is horrible especially because chronologically it makes Hippolyta the original Wonder Woman which detracts from Diana.

Imagine there was a previous Batman or Superman? I guarantee you that Geoff would never allow that. I wonder why he wants it so bad for Wonder Woman.

Things that make you go "hmmmm?"

And Hippolyta's first act as Wonder Woman was to chop some guy's arm off.

YIKES!

But I agree, Hippolyta as the "first" Wonder Woman COMPLETELY detracts from Diana's uniqueness in the role.

[the4thpip]

What a terrible idea.

Hippolyta assuming the mantle of Wonder Woman as penance after her daughters death and taking her place in the JLA (or even serving with the JSA of that time period) is a great idea. But the whole time travel story is horrible especially because chronologically it makes Hippolyta the original Wonder Woman which detracts from Diana.

Imagine there was a previous Batman or Superman? I guarantee you that Geoff would never allow that. I wonder why he wants it so bad for Wonder Woman.

Things that make you go "hmmmm?"

It was John Byrne who did that, though. And she was mostly in the JSA when Robinson and Goyer were more involved with the writing than Geoff, I think.

[4PointOh]

It was John Byrne who did that, though. And she was mostly in the JSA when Robinson and Goyer were more involved with the writing than Geoff, I think.

But I believe it's Geoff who really advocates for the protection of the idea lately (that is, within the last couple of years).

Some people really go in for Hippolyta as Wonder Woman. But to me it's like saying Xena is Wonder Woman. It's weird, detracts from Diana and I prefer Hippolyta as Hippolyta.

[The Ray]

For shits and giggles, Wonder Woman should be an avowed fan of Ice Cube.

[Ben Morgan]

For shits and giggles, Wonder Woman should be an avowed fan of Ice Cube.I was gonna suggest have her fight the NWA.

[4PointOh]

I was gonna suggest have her fight the NWA.

I think she should fight Ann Coulter, FOX News and Paris Hilton.

[Tetsuo_man]

Why not just have diana time travel to before her mother time traveled and diana is the first wonder woman before ww2 but hypolita via time travel was wonder woman in ww2?

[troy2g1]

Why not just have diana time travel to before her mother time traveled and diana is the first wonder woman before ww2 but hypolita via time travel was wonder woman in ww2?

Because that is very convoluted and confusing. It starts to tread Donna Troy territory.

The simplest idea would be that Post-IC continuity has Diana as the Wonder Woman active in the JSA.

[BnL]

For those wondering, Josh is a nerdy guy that Huntress mercy fucked in Birds of Prey.

As for my own wish list, I'm enjoying everything that Gail is already doing (and the stuff that's coming up too). There's only one thing lacking so far that I'd like to see. I want to see more done with some of Wonder Woman's existing villains. Particularly Dr. Cyber, Giganta, and Villainy Inc.

[Tetsuo_man]

Because that is very convoluted and confusing. It starts to tread Donna Troy territory.

The simplest idea would be that Post-IC continuity has Diana as the Wonder Woman active in the JSA.

Hmm yeah i'm sorry for suggesting that. Sometimes it's easy for love of claremontism-esque type stuff blinds me.

[troy2g1]

Hmm yeah i'm sorry for suggesting that. Sometimes it's easy for love of claremontism-esque type stuff blinds me.

Hey no reason to be sorry! It was just an idea -- I only voiced my opinion, that's all.

I'm only against it because Donna is such a difficult character to deal with because her history is a disaster. The whole time travel concept is hard for many readers to get a handle on. Big iconic characters should remain as simple as possible, IMO.

[The Ray]

I was gonna suggest have her fight the NWA.

" Fuck the police coming straight from the underground.
Wonder Woman got it bad cos' I'm Amazon "

Word.

[4PointOh]

Hey no reason to be sorry! It was just an idea -- I only voiced my opinion, that's all.

I'm only against it because Donna is such a difficult character to deal with because her history is a disaster. The whole time travel concept is hard for many readers to get a handle on. Big iconic characters should remain as simple as possible, IMO.

I totally agree. Phil keeps arguing with me that Donna's history is completely linear. I said, only if by "linear" he means "interconnecting octagons." LOL!

[TROUBLEZ]

I don't have any idea's too add, but I also want to mention I hope that during Gail's run that Hippolyta as the first Wonder Woman is taken out of continuity.

It also makes me feel like Diana is less unique. Plus, I thought that the original Black Canary was supposed to be post-Crisis replacement for WW in the JSA?

[troy2g1]

I totally agree. Phil keeps arguing with me that Donna's history is completely linear. I said, only if by "linear" he means "interconnecting octagons." LOL!

You should ask him "Which of her multiple origins is the linear version?"

[Spiffy]

Okay, for once I'm NOT going to be one of the flippant answers. I'll do this one seriously.

I want the whole Max Lord thing retconned out of existance, or if that can't be managed at least the inane angst surrounding it. It's not Diana as a killer that's a problem, its the baggage that's been attached to it.

For Wonder Woman to be pigeonholed into this corner where she has to feel defensive about being what she is--a warrior--is just silly. It's not that the scenario of her having to kill proactively wasn't always a possible one, it's just that I think that having tread down that path, and "resolved" it by her basically swearing not to kill at ALL, created an end result that's damaging to the character. She's NOT Boyscout Superman, and writing her like she is? A big mistake.

It's not like she has to be written slaughtering left and right, Red Sonja style. She's bound to be aware that when in the role of a Superhero she's acting more as a "Cop" than as a Soldier, and there's a certain set of behaviors necessary. But when she's written in a scenario where she's acting as a Soldier, fighting a war, that aspect of her shouldn't be murky. She's a Warrior, and should fight like one.

If the Max Lord stuff DIDN'T exist in continuity anymore, than a lot of elements would be opened back up. For example, as things stand, she can't discuss/debate this with Superman. It's "the topic they don't dare discuss" as things are. There can't be an ongoing debate between them, with him taking the idealistic route (from the somewhat bent POV of someone who has almost infinite power, so he can have the luxury of that idealism) versus her more practical point of view--from a hero who as powerful as she is can't afford the arrogance that comes along with being able to assume that "there's always another way". Well there IS, if you are Superman. If you aren't? Not so much. And this shouldn't have been a one-off point of contention between them, as the Max Lord story forced it to be, it should have been an ongoing one.

Of course Superman isn't a regular in HER book. There, this Max Lord thing is instead simply kind of like a bad stench hanging around in the background.

[BnL]

Okay, for once I'm NOT going to be one of the flippant answers. I'll do this one seriously.

I want the whole Max Lord thing retconned out of existance, or if that can't be managed at least the inane angst surrounding it. It's not Diana as a killer that's a problem, its the baggage that's been attached to it.

For Wonder Woman to be pigeonholed into this corner where she has to feel defensive about being what she is--a warrior--is just silly. It's not that the scenario of her having to kill proactively wasn't always a possible one, it's just that I think that having tread down that path, and "resolved" it by her basically swearing not to kill at ALL, created an end result that's damaging to the character. She's NOT Boyscout Superman, and writing her like she is? A big mistake.

It's not like she has to be written slaughtering left and right, Red Sonja style. She's bound to be aware that when in the role of a Superhero she's acting more as a "Cop" than as a Soldier, and there's a certain set of behaviors necessary. But when she's written in a scenario where she's acting as a Soldier, fighting a war, that aspect of her shouldn't be murky. She's a Warrior, and should fight like one.

If the Max Lord stuff DIDN'T exist in continuity anymore, than a lot of elements would be opened back up. For example, as things stand, she can't discuss/debate this with Superman. It's "the topic they don't dare discuss" as things are. There can't be an ongoing debate between them, with him taking the idealistic route (from the somewhat bent POV of someone who has almost infinite power, so he can have the luxury of that idealism) versus her more practical point of view--from a hero who as powerful as she is can't afford the arrogance that comes along with being able to assume that "there's always another way". Well there IS, if you are Superman. If you aren't? Not so much. And this shouldn't have been a one-off point of contention between them, as the Max Lord story forced it to be, it should have been an ongoing one.

Of course Superman isn't a regular in HER book. There, this Max Lord thing is instead simply kind of like a bad stench hanging around in the background.

I couldn't be more pleased with Gail's take on Diana's "kill policy." It's just right. She doesn't want to kill, she doesn't like to kill. But if necessary, she won't hesitate to do so. What that means is: No revenge killings, no hacking and slashing her way through an enemy army, no beheadings just because it's a bad guy. She wants to find peaceful solutions. She wants to reform evildoers. If she has to kill, it's because she absolutely HAS to.

[Spiffy]

I couldn't be more pleased with Gail's take on Diana's "kill policy." It's just right. She doesn't want to kill, she doesn't like to kill. But if necessary, she won't hesitate to do so. What that means is: No revenge killings, no hacking and slashing her way through an enemy army, no beheadings just because it's a bad guy. She wants to find peaceful solutions. She wants to reform evildoers. If she has to kill, it's because she absolutely HAS to.
Yeah, but I think all of that is implied. There's always the spectre of that "I won't kill anymore because Superman was right" garbage lingering in the background.

I guess I can accept that simply being ignored, which seems to be the current solution, but that still doesn't allow Diana and Superman to TALK about their respective positions, which I think would be an interesting debate if there wasn't the Max Lord crap, and its lame resolution, still in continuity. Superman's position is arrogant--I've always thought this. He's almost infinitely powerful and can afford to adhere to moral absolutes that nobody else can.

Does this mean that I actually want to see Wonder Woman kill someone in her own book? That's hard to say. But she's clearly the DC Superhero best equipped to have in a full fledged war story, and if she was? I'd like to see this issue revisited, in a more intelligent way than it was before.

[BnL]

Yeah, but I think all of that is implied. There's always the spectre of that "I won't kill anymore because Superman was right" garbage lingering in the background.

I guess I can accept that simply being ignored, which seems to be the current solution, but that still doesn't allow Diana and Superman to TALK about their respective positions, which I think would be an interesting debate if there wasn't the Max Lord crap, and its lame resolution, still in continuity. Superman's position is arrogant--I've always thought this. He's almost infinitely powerful and can afford to adhere to moral absolutes that nobody else can.

Does this mean that I actually want to see Wonder Woman kill someone in her own book? That's hard to say. But she's clearly the DC Superhero best equipped to have in a full fledged war story, and if she was? I'd like to see this issue revisited, in a more intelligent way than it was before.

It seems like much of the Max Lord stuff is being ignored at this point. At least in Wonder Woman's own title. I can understand wanting to see a real resolution to it, but at the same time, that story came out three + years ago. And many writers have tried, in many books, to address the issue, almost always poorly, or at best, unsatisfactorily. I'm happy to just continue ignoring it and not let it bog down the current run. I can see it being referenced in the context of a larger conversation on killing, sometime down the line.

[Spiffy]

It seems like much of the Max Lord stuff is being ignored at this point. At least in Wonder Woman's own title. I can understand wanting to see a real resolution to it, but at the same time, that story came out three + years ago. And many writers have tried, in many books, to address the issue, almost always poorly, or at best, unsatisfactorily. I'm happy to just continue ignoring it and not let it bog down the current run. I can see it being referenced in the context of a larger conversation on killing, sometime down the line.

Ah, I think you misunderstand. Ideally I don't want it talked about or "resolved", I want it undone.

People accept retcons left and right these days--justify them as necessary. Final Crisis/Countdown/Death of the New Gods being a huge recent example. I've been on both sides of that debate at various times, but my point is if there was ever a necessary retcon, this is it.

Ignoring it is a good compromise, but my point is that it kills the great potential of an ongoing conflict between Wonder Woman and Superman based on their different philosophies. An ongoing conflict that admittedly couldn't exist either, if they simply came out and talked about the Max Lord situation again, because well... its an extreme example that already forced Diana to "admit" to being in the wrong (and man did I ever groan out loud when I read that the first time). Diana needs equal moral ground in a debate like this, and the whole Max Lord storyline was a bullshit way to corner her into an extreme situation that left her unable to represent her position fairly in any ongoing fashion. The only way she CAN, ever, is if that situation is retconned away.

Yes, this is unrealistic, because its easier just to ignore something than set up a complicated retcon. I don't really expect it to happen. It's more of a pet peeve, because it cut the knees out from her so totally in terms of her true values. There's no shame in being a soldier, and the bullshit "we should do better" attitude of Superman has always bugged the crap out of me, because only he can afford to have that kind of arrogance. Your typical hero can't go to the extremes he can to totally avoid killing force.

[BnL]

Ah, I think you misunderstand. Ideally I don't want it talked about or "resolved", I want it undone.

People accept retcons left and right these days--justify them as necessary. Final Crisis/Countdown/Death of the New Gods being a huge recent example. I've been on both sides of that debate at various times, but my point is if there was ever a necessary retcon, this is it.

Ignoring it is a good compromise, but my point is that it kills the great potential of an ongoing conflict between Wonder Woman and Superman based on their different philosophies. An ongoing conflict that admittedly couldn't exist either, if they simply came out and talked about the Max Lord situation again, because well... its an extreme example that already forced Diana to "admit" to being in the wrong (and man did I ever groan out loud when I read that the first time). Diana needs equal moral ground in a debate like this, and the whole Max Lord storyline was a bullshit way to corner her into an extreme situation that left her unable to represent her position fairly in any ongoing fashion. The only way she CAN, ever, is if that situation is retconned away.

Yes, this is unrealistic, because its easier just to ignore something than set up a complicated retcon. I don't really expect it to happen. It's more of a pet peeve, because it cut the knees out from her so totally in terms of her true values. There's no shame in being a soldier, and the bullshit "we should do better" attitude of Superman has always bugged the crap out of me, because only he can afford to have that kind of arrogance. Your typical hero can't go to the extremes he can to totally avoid killing force.

Alright, I think I see what you're saying now. And yeah, retconning it wholesale would be very complicated, since it's tied in so closely with a big event comic. But the killing itself doesn't need to be retconned, just the bullshit about Diana realizing she was "wrong." That could very easily be excised from continuity, and it deserves to be.

[Spiffy]

Alright, I think I see what you're saying now. And yeah, retconning it wholesale would be very complicated, since it's tied in so closely with a big event comic. But the killing itself doesn't need to be retconned, just the bullshit about Diana realizing she was "wrong." That could very easily be excised from continuity, and it deserves to be.

Agreed. Although it still leaves a very radical version of her warrior tendencies "in continuity". Admittedly her admission of fault was the bigger, more insulting component, but it was also a real shot against her character to manipulate her into that kind of morally impossible situation in the first place.

To me its akin to making Zatanna the moral bad guy in the Identity Crisis memory wipe thing. As with Wonder Woman and Max Lord, its a viable thing that might really happen to the character, but its also a distasteful manipulation of a storyline to an extreme situation in order to take a strong female character down a peg. Its just an ugly tendency--almost a codicil to the Women in Refrigerators thing. I mean its not that strong female characters shouldn't face big moral dilemmas--they should--but the resolution seems to frequently be them getting lectured by the morally superior male hero.

I'd actually give props to some recent handling of a few Marvel female superheroes, who have had their share of super-misogynistic writing over the years, but who I think come off better in this one department. She-Hulk is a good example. She's got a boatload of self-loathing and self-blame, but I think the writing of recent writers Dan Slott and Peter David, at the very least, has made it very clear that she's the one driving her own doubts, and any male hero who tries to play moral superior to her (Iron Man mostly) is the one in the wrong. So you get your cake (believable character angst) but you can eat it too (because ultimately there isn't this external confirmation of her "flaws").

[Gail Simone]

I couldn't be more pleased with Gail's take on Diana's "kill policy." It's just right. She doesn't want to kill, she doesn't like to kill. But if necessary, she won't hesitate to do so. What that means is: No revenge killings, no hacking and slashing her way through an enemy army, no beheadings just because it's a bad guy. She wants to find peaceful solutions. She wants to reform evildoers. If she has to kill, it's because she absolutely HAS to.

I just wrote a letter about this to Greg Rucka this morning, in fact.

My opinion is, Diana's life being on the line isn't enough for her to kill. Period.

[Spiffy]

I just wrote a letter about this to Greg Rucka this morning, in fact.

My opinion is, Diana's life being on the line isn't enough for her to kill. Period.
What about the life of others (being on the line, I mean)?

[Lester C.]

I just wrote a letter about this to Greg Rucka this morning, in fact.

My opinion is, Diana's life being on the line isn't enough for her to kill. Period.

I admit, apart from Rucka's run, I've only read about Diana in other books but doesn't she have a history of killing villains on very rare occasions.

[The Ray]

I wonder how Wondy is gonna reconcile the fact that part of her job is to be duplicitous and that she's also the avatar of truth.

That's gonna be fun to watch.

[Red Jack]

Alright, I think I see what you're saying now. And yeah, retconning it wholesale would be very complicated, since it's tied in so closely with a big event comic. But the killing itself doesn't need to be retconned, just the bullshit about Diana realizing she was "wrong." That could very easily be excised from continuity, and it deserves to be.

She wasn't wrong. She shouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. She's a warrior and he was going to destroy large chunks of the world using one of her best friends (and noblest souls) to do it. She had two seconds. He had to go.

That's why she's the apex warrior and why neither Kal or Bruce could have made the necessary choice. I'm honestly surprised Shiva hasn't challenged Diana, who else on the planet matters?

I would like to see more of the lightness of spirit Gail has already injected into the character. I like Diana as classical hero living in a modern reality. It would be great for her to go on a quest a la the Argonauts.

Otherwise I'm happy just to have Gail's words in her mouth.

[BnL]

Agreed. Although it still leaves a very radical version of her warrior tendencies "in continuity". Admittedly her admission of fault was the bigger, more insulting component, but it was also a real shot against her character to manipulate her into that kind of morally impossible situation in the first place.


Oh yeah, I agree with that. It's definitely dicey territory that needs to be treated very, very prudently. Otherwise you get the aggressive, bitchy and "bloodlust-y" characterization that Diana is sometimes carelessly given.

I just wrote a letter about this to Greg Rucka this morning, in fact.

My opinion is, Diana's life being on the line isn't enough for her to kill. Period.

Yep, sounds right to me. Love the new avatar, by the way. :smile:

What about the life of others (being on the line, I mean)?

I know you're asking Gail, but my personal take is that, yes, if the lives of others were in imminent danger, and the only way to save them was to kill her opponent, she will without hesitating. Fortunately, being Wonder Woman, she should very, very, VERY rarely (if ever) find herself in this predicament.

I admit, apart from Rucka's run, I've only read about Diana in other books but doesn't she have a history of killing villains on very rare occasions.

The example that's often cited is in Kingdom Come, where she orders the League to use deadly force against the inmates at the Gulag, and she kills a few herself. For some reason, a lot of people think this is the definitive characterization for Wonder Woman, but of course, it's an Elseworlds story where pretty much everyone was at their worst. I don't buy that Superman would ever quit being Superman, even if Lois was murdered. I don't think Captain Marvel would actually allow himself to be manipulated and controlled by Luthor. So why are people so quick to believe that Wonder Woman's behavior in Kingdom Come was any less out of character?

Sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant.

Anyway, yes, Wonder Woman has killed in-continuity before Rucka's run, I think 3 times, but it was always in order to save the life of another who was in immediate danger. Except that terrible fill-in arc right before Jimenez's run. Man, that was a really crappy story. I'll stop there, before this turns into another full-blown rant. :tongue:

She wasn't wrong. She shouldn't lose a wink of sleep over it. She's a warrior and he was going to destroy large chunks of the world using one of her best friends (and noblest souls) to do it. She had two seconds. He had to go.

That's why she's the apex warrior and why neither Kal or Bruce could have made the necessary choice. I'm honestly surprised Shiva hasn't challenged Diana, who else on the planet matters?

I would like to see more of the lightness of spirit Gail has already injected into the character. I like Diana as classical hero living in a modern reality. It would be great for her to go on a quest a la the Argonauts.

Otherwise I'm happy just to have Gail's words in her mouth.

I agree with all of this, except the part about her not feeling bad about it afterward. That's not the same as being repentant, because if she has to take a life, she knows she had no other choice, and she did the right thing. But I think her compassionate side would feel bad about having been forced to take that action. One of Wonder Woman's main motivations is to help others to reach their full potential, and that extends to reforming villains. But if they're dead, well...that kind of puts an end to that potential. She'd feel bad about that.

[BnL]

double post.

[Mr.EZ]

I'd really like to see Diana get a new Wonder Woman costume. Her current duds are classic, but they're outdated, imo.

[4PointOh]

Someone at another board came up with this awesome new Wonder Woman origin/continuity. Troy2G forwarded it to me:

A long time ago...



The Goddess Athena foresaw the destruction of the Universe. In her vision the catalyst was the betrayer God Ares whose thirst for power would cause endless destruction and death. Athena posited that Ares would make his move sometime during the mid twentieth century. To stop Ares she knew that a special weapon would be needed. No other Gods would dare oppose Ares so Athena devised a plan. She began to drop hints to the Gods and subtlety influence their decision to bring forth the idea to create a race of women worshippers, the Amazons. Through these Amazons Athena would cultivate her weapon, a champion.



Meeting in the Womb of Gaea, mother of all, the Goddesses brought forth female souls from all points in time that had died at the hands of men. Athena ensured one particular soul was left in the womb to be nurtured by Gaea herself. The rest of the souls would be blessed by the Gods with various gifts including immortality and a mission to guard “Dooms Doorway” – a nexus to evil known to the world as Pandora’s Box.



Some two thousand years later…



Hippolyta, Queen of the Amazons, begins to feel lonely. The Goddess Athena visits her in a dream and reveals a secret: in her previous life Hippolyta was killed while pregnant – her longing is for that of her unborn child – the last soul in the Womb of Gaea. Hippolyta awoke knowing how to bring her child to life.



(Insert the origin of The Circle.)



Finally able to convince some of her fellow Gods that Ares must be stopped, Athena, with the aid of Aphrodite, Demeter, Artemis, Hestia and Hermes return to the Womb of Gaea and bless the remaining soul with special gifts.



(Insert Diana’s “birth” here and the imprisonment of The Circle.)



Diana grows up on Themyscira mastering their teachings ands skills at an advanced rate (due to Athena’s gift of wisdom). At some point during her childhood Diana grows lonely being the only child in a tribe of women. The sorceress Magala secretly creates a mystical twin from a reflection of Diana to act as a playmate. The witch Circe, after learning of a prophecy by Hecate, abducts the mystical twin thinking she is the real princess and curses the child to live life after life of misery in order to break her soul. Satisfied the prophecy will never come to pass Circe leaves the Amazons alone.



Some time later…



The Wizard Shazam, unable to stop his renegade champion Teth Adam, calls for the assistance of the Gods. Athena appears to Shazam and suggests he seek help from the Amazons. Diana leaves Themyscira and travels to Egypt where she defeats Teth Adam allowing Shazam the opportunity to steal away his abilities and lock them away within the scarab.



(Insert Heracles labor to obtain the Golden Girdle of Gaea and the Amazon enslavement which led to Antiopes departure and the creation of the Bana Mighdall tribe.)



Diana returns to find her home destroyed and her sisters separated. The Gods, unhappy with Hippolyta and the other Amazons rebellious acts order the remaining Amazons to stay on Themyscira and send the city into time/space, isolated from the rest of the world.



(The mystical twin begins to live various unhappy lives, always ending in early death.)



Some more time later in the mid twentieth century…



At Athenas behest the Gods come to Themyscira and order the Amazons to send a champion forth into “Man’s World” to finally stop Ares. Hippolyta orders a Contest to determine the most worthy of her sisters. Diana, wishing to compete, asks Magala to create a pair of magical chain cuffs (the same as the Amazons wear to symbolize their imprisonment at the hands of Heracles) to temporarily bind her powers so she can compete as an equal. Diana wins the Contest and is given The Aegis and Lariat of Hestia to aid in her quest. She departs for Man’s World using the Sandals of Hermes to traverse time/space.



Arriving in Man’s World Diana is guided to and befriends Julia Kapatelis and her daughter Vanessa.



(Insert that portion of the Perez run here, including Ares defeat and the rescue of a young military pilot named Steve Trevor along with meeting Myndi Meyer.)



Wonder Woman, as she is now publicly known, is invited to join the Justice Society of America. She remains active with them until they decide to disband and retire rather than unmask at the request of the House Un-American Activities Committee. Diana, feeling her mission takes precedence and since she does not actually having a “secret identity” continues for a short time. Vanessa has since married Steve Trevor and had a daughter, Diana, named after the Princess.



During this time period Wonder Woman rescues an orphaned infant from an abandoned warehouse. Knowing the child will not survive on its own she dons the Sandals of Hermes again to finally return home to Themyscira. She asks her Amazon sisters to use the Purple Healing Ray to mend the baby’s injuries. Unbeknownst to Diana this child is the mystical twin created by Magala living through constant life cycles. Dianas intervention broke the spell and the child remains on Themyscira for the time being revealing Amazon-like abilities which are attributed to the Purple Healing Ray when in actuality they are her true abilities awoken by the ray.



Since Ares had been defeated Hippolyta decrees that Wonder Woman’s mission is done and she must remain with her sisters. Growing restless and feeling that her mission is not complete Diana once again leaves Themyscira for Man’s World. When she arrives much more time has passed due to different rules which govern space/time and Julia Kaptelis has since died and Vanessa has two grandchildren, one of whom is Steve Trevor, Jr. Slightly disillusioned about her friends death Diana assumes the Diana Prince role to learn more about the mortality of humans.



(Insert I Ching era here and she befriends Steve Trevor, Jr and Etta Candy).



Diana returns to help a group of a newer generation of heroes against the alien invaders the Appelaxians. They form the Justice League. Shortly after Donna leaves Themysicra and joins the Teen Titans as Wonder Girl.



(Insert War of the Gods and the return of Themyscira from space/time into the Earth dimension and the Bana Mighdall tribe storyline.)



Steve Trevor recommends Diana stay with his widowed sister Helena and her daughter Cassandra.



(Insert Byrne run here).

[Wonder Watcher]

Agreed. Although it still leaves a very radical version of her warrior tendencies "in continuity". Admittedly her admission of fault was the bigger, more insulting component, but it was also a real shot against her character to manipulate her into that kind of morally impossible situation in the first place.Diana killing in extremis to save innocents is perfectly acceptable but once the decision to take her down the 'mea culpa' path was made it was incredibly damaging to the character.

This is the elephant in the corner that I don't think is going away.

The current continuity is that Diana killed Max Lord "for his crimes" (52) for which she apologized and admitted she was wrong (IC). Since then it's become apparent Superman wouldn't have killed even under Max's control (Booster Gold), even further undermining her position.

Bottom line is that she's someone who has executed a villain as punishment. Then said she was sorry.

I'd be 100% behind retconning it out of continuity.

[Wonder Watcher]

I just wrote a letter about this to Greg Rucka this morning, in fact.

My opinion is, Diana's life being on the line isn't enough for her to kill. Period.I would say it depends very much who is getting killed and if it's a kill or be killed situation.

[Chiroptera]

I'm afraid my list of Want-To-Sees is long aswell...
Bear in mind several these are things I'd like to see but that, I am fairly certain, I won't see.


--Wonder Woman's faithful return of devotion to the Greek Pantheon

--The return of the Amazons to Themyscira.

--A storyline with Hippolyta joining Diana for a mission, preferably a means of seeing the difference in personalities. I'd love to see some conflict between Hippolyta's more aggressive, sometimes lethal, policy against enemies compared to Diana's more peaceful one.

--Development of a Rogue's list that ruly seems threatening, one that stands up alongside Batman's and Flash's as being a very dangerous and deadly group of adversaries.

--Diana in a lesbian relationship, even a brief one.

--A team up with KC Superman before he leaves the main universe. I'd just love to see how that plays out considering his feelings for Wonder Woman in his 'verse.

--A one shot guest starring New Frontier Wonder Woman, just to see the juxtaposition between a golden age no moral dilemmas with killing Wonder Woman and our modern version of the character.


Kudos to anyone who can since the true pattern beneath the obvious patterns in my list. :tongue:

[4PointOh]

Diana in a lesbian relationship, even a brief one

According to James Melanson, a friend of Greg's who he included as a character in WONDER WOMAN #225, Greg planned to have Io as Diana's lover, but DC totally nixed the idea.

However, if you re-read Greg's run you can see the thread running in the subtext.

[TomBelandofTSSTG]

And Beland. Gail, Ask Aaron to draw Bendis, Beland and Lily in Wonder Woman.

You can't have two Dr. Psycho's in one book. ;)

[Samurai]

The book should go adults only as Diana infiltrates a nudist camp bent on world domination! Drawn by Adam Hughes...

[Wonder Watcher]

In no particular order I'd like to see.

1. Max Lord killing resolved somehow in a way that favours Diana.

2. The relationship with Tom moving forward.

3. A member of the Rogues gallery that can challenge Diana in every department, and hangs around.

4. A major victory against a 'superior' foe.

5. Rehabilitation of the Amazons.

6. The end of her pledge to Kane and Diana returning to her Greek Gods but not kowtowing to them.

7. More page time for Hippolyta and more examination of her relationship with Diana.

8. This is a bit left field but I think one day, and I'm not saying right now, Diana should become a mother herself.

[Corrina]

Paradise Island would be a nice place for Sin.

Uh, wait, how many times has it been destroyed? Okay, maybe not...:)

[Gail Simone]

I would say it depends very much who is getting killed and if it's a kill or be killed situation.

That's what I said. If it's just HER life on the line, she won't kill. Under any circumstances.

Just my opinion.

[Wonder Watcher]

That's what I said. If it's just HER life on the line, she won't kill. Under any circumstances.

Just my opinion.Just in case I'm being hard of understanding, you are saying she won't kill, even in self defence, if she's the only one endangered ?.

[suedenim]

I'd like to see more Amazon courtship rituals. And more little details of Amazon rituals and everyday life in general, really. Gail's the first writer who's ever actually made me interested in that aspect of Wonder Woman, but she seems to have it down so perfectly, that I want to see more!

[Red Jack]

Bottom line is that she's someone who has executed a villain as punishment. Then said she was sorry.

She didn't execute Max to punish him. She killed him to stop him because it was the only way. I don't think she should wring her hands over it but i think missing the Max she knew (or thought she knew) and feeling grief over THAT loss would be within her character. But she owes nobody nothing on the apology score.

Superman is the executioner and I felt THAT was just as much out of character as Diana's killing Max was in.

Diana is the product of a tradition in which killing is acceptable under certain conditions. I just don't see her apologizing to ANYBODY for doing what had to be done. Apex warrior.

[Gail Simone]

I'd like to see more Amazon courtship rituals. And more little details of Amazon rituals and everyday life in general, really. Gail's the first writer who's ever actually made me interested in that aspect of Wonder Woman, but she seems to have it down so perfectly, that I want to see more!

HEY!

Where have YOU been?

And you'll see a lot more--starting in #24! :)

[Gail Simone]

Just in case I'm being hard of understanding, you are saying she won't kill, even in self defence, if she's the only one endangered ?.


I can't see her killing someone under those circumstances, correct.

What Greg did very well was show that other lives were on the line.


We're doing a story about this, I promise.

[TCJohnson]

I would like to see new villains...not necessarily Wonder Woman villains, but ones that can be used in other places in the DCU. And not the raping, mass murdering, world dominating ones, but ones that are out to get a few bucks the easy way and are fun to fight.

[Sabrinaset]

One of the things I really liked about "The Hypothetical Woman" was the couple-page interlude where Diana is shown knowing how to cook. It kinda humanized her, you know?

I'd really like to see something like that in Gail's run. Like, have her into, I dunno ... NASCAR or stamp collecting or some kind of hobby. Something like that.

[Wonder Watcher]

She didn't execute Max to punish him. She killed him to stop him because it was the only way. I don't think she should wring her hands over it but i think missing the Max she knew (or thought she knew) and feeling grief over THAT loss would be within her character. But she owes nobody nothing on the apology score.That was the story that Greg Rucka wrote, but not the story that eventually played out. She did wring her hands over it, she did apologize and admit it was wrong. It has been stated (by Donna Troy as Harbinger IIRC) that she did it to punish Lord for his crimes.

Superman is the executioner and I felt THAT was just as much out of character as Diana's killing Max was in.Well, he was being mind controlled so he has an excuse. But even then it has has been stated / implied since that Superman would never kill, even under Max's influence. Which made what Diana did look even worse of course.

Diana is the product of a tradition in which killing is acceptable under certain conditions. I just don't see her apologizing to ANYBODY for doing what had to be done. Apex warrior.I think you may have missed my point. If things had been played out as Greg intended what happened would have fallen within the Amazon credo. My point is that the way the story progressed following the act it did not.

[suedenim]

HEY!

Where have YOU been?

And you'll see a lot more--starting in #24! :)

Nice to be remembered, despite being an "extremely intermittent" (like, two years between posting periods) poster! :)

And I'll be reading!

[scout1279]

I want to see an actual monkey, with a tail.

Also, I would kinda like to see Wonder Woman and Tom go bowling. I want to see Wonder Woman in rented shoes.

[JKCarrier]

She killed him to stop him because it was the only way.

This always reminds me of Kurtzman & Elder's "Woman Wonder" parody in Mad: "Let's see... shall I tie up the crooks? Knock them out? [pulls out machine gun] Aw, screw it, I'll just kill 'em."

It was "the only way" because the writer wanted it to be the only way. Why was it so important to him to have Diana kill someone? To make her look tough, or what? It seems like such a bizarre goal to build a story around.

[Red Jack]

This always reminds me of Kurtzman & Elder's "Woman Wonder" parody in Mad: "Let's see... shall I tie up the crooks? Knock them out? [pulls out machine gun] Aw, screw it, I'll just kill 'em."

It was "the only way" because the writer wanted it to be the only way. Why was it so important to him to have Diana kill someone? To make her look tough, or what? It seems like such a bizarre goal to build a story around.

I don't think the story was built around that event. It was one of many events in a massive Xover.

Unlike Superman's execution of the Phantom Zone criminals (which was both immoral according to his own code and illegal according to pretty much every international law) Diana, as has been pointed out, had killed in defense of others before. She is not a female Superman. She is a different kind of hero and her making that decision, faced with what was set against her in that moment, was something neither of the others in the "Trinity" could do had the situation been somehow reversed.

You can have problems with how Max turned out. You can have problems with the whole OMAC/BRUCE is CRAZY PARANOID thing but, at that moment in that situation, killing Max was the only way out. And it wasn't gratuitous or pasted on or the result of having written ones self into a corner.

She is not the boys. She is not a junior member of the "Trinity." She is, in her own right and way, a hero. She's fully capable of making a whole slew of decisions the others might not and STILL BEING ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

I don't think this makes her bloodthirsty nutjob nor do I think it means she has to do weeks of soul searching and mea culpas over saving the freaking world.

She made the right choice. It was a hard choice and she was the only one capable of making it. Diana's tops in my book and that's just one of the reasons why.

[suedenim]

I want to see an actual monkey, with a tail.

Also, I would kinda like to see Wonder Woman and Tom go bowling. I want to see Wonder Woman in rented shoes.

Both excellent points. One of my working theories is that for any action-adventure movie or series to be truly great, it requires the presence of at least one evil monkey. For example: Indiana Jones? Evil Nazi monkey. Pirates of the Caribbean? Evil undead monkey. And just recently, watching the DVDs of season one of the George Reeves "Adventures of Superman", I discovered that *it* had an evil (or at least criminal) monkey working for a crime syndicate with a crooked organ grinder. While wearing a Superman costume, no less (first appearance of Beppo!)

I now suspect that the show's decline in quality after that gangbusters 1951 season was largely due to the absence of Evil Monkey content in later seasons.

I'd like to see Diana go bowling too! She'd probably enjoy it, too - I've always had the impression that Amazons, in general, are avid players of all sorts of games and sports.

[TCJohnson]

I want to see a theme park with blackjack! And hookers!


Awwww, forget the themepark!

[suedenim]

I want to see a theme park with blackjack! And hookers!


Awwww, forget the themepark!

In fact, forget the blackjack... and the Wonder Woman!

[scout1279]

Both excellent points. One of my working theories is that for any action-adventure movie or series to be truly great, it requires the presence of at least one evil monkey. For example: Indiana Jones? Evil Nazi monkey. Pirates of the Caribbean? Evil undead monkey. And just recently, watching the DVDs of season one of the George Reeves "Adventures of Superman", I discovered that *it* had an evil (or at least criminal) monkey working for a crime syndicate with a crooked organ grinder. While wearing a Superman costume, no less (first appearance of Beppo!)

I now suspect that the show's decline in quality after that gangbusters 1951 season was largely due to the absence of Evil Monkey content in later seasons.

I'd like to see Diana go bowling too! She'd probably enjoy it, too - I've always had the impression that Amazons, in general, are avid players of all sorts of games and sports.

I remember that episode. It was awesome. I dispute the fact that the Indiana Jones monkey was evil though. He was just misguided.

[TCJohnson]

In fact, forget the blackjack... and the Wonder Woman!

YOU! I like!

[Wonder Watcher]

I can't see her killing someone under those circumstances, correct.

What Greg did very well was show that other lives were on the line.


We're doing a story about this, I promise.Excellent.

It is an extremely noble thing but I can't help thinking what if it's a piece of scum like Dr Light who has somehow got the better of her and is about kill her (and the rest) but she has a split second to act first. Yet she doesn't put him out of our misery. Is that noble ?. Does it serve the greater good and her mission ?. It's an interesting question.

That's an extreme example that hardly counts I know but I'll look forward to reading the story.

[suedenim]

I remember that episode. It was awesome. I dispute the fact that the Indiana Jones monkey was evil though. He was just misguided.

The debate over the moral implications and social causes of monkey crime have always been with us, and likely will be for centuries to come. I'm of the school, however, that judges monkeys by their deeds and the company they keep, not their words -- or arguments fashioned by fancy-pants monkey lawyers trying to get monkey criminals freed on technicalities!

[Gail Simone]

I want to see an actual monkey, with a tail.

Also, I would kinda like to see Wonder Woman and Tom go bowling. I want to see Wonder Woman in rented shoes.

You will SO almost kinda sorta not really get your wish. ;)

[Gamiel]

I want to see a bit more mythology from the rest of the glob or even beyond - Let Diana battle Baba Yaga in Russia, trade riddles whit Coyote over hidden knowledge, stop hungry ghosts in Hong Kong, fight ghouls (evil djinn) in the middle east, werelions who has allied themselves whit warlords i Africa who gets there weapons from Lexcorp and training from the League of Assassins and why not throw in an Martina dream demon and Dream of the Endless.

And I think that Diana has a natural enemy in Koschei the Deathless (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koschei)

Something that I really want to se is Heracles verbally beating up Hera and reminding everybody who it was that draw him to kill his family in madness.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

Paradise Island would be a nice place for Sin.

Uh, wait, how many times has it been destroyed? Okay, maybe not...:)


Oooooo, yeah....

No, wait. You mean the character.

Never mind.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

I'm the complete opposite. I'm sick to death of 'Wonder Woman Fights Evil God' stories. IMO, it's been run into the ground. That said, that's only my feeling, and Gail probably wouldn't agree.

I concur about the rogues gallery. Diana shouldn't have Flash-type villains, but she does need some new ones and the ones she has, for the most part, need fleshed out. Do you realize we still have no idea what Giganta freaking WANTS? Or what Clea can do, exactly? And that's not even mentioning the bunch Heinberg dragged into continuity and dumped there.

I suspect one of the things Gail's doing is taking the old Wonder-villain cliches and playing with them. Genocide sounds a lot like a new 'Evil God' character, and most likely, Gail will find a way to make that cool. After all, what schtick is more overdone with Wonder Woman stories than the 'Renegade Amazon' and when was there ever any as fascinating as Alkyone?

[suedenim]

Just thought of a random little thing I'd like to see - some exploration of Diana's vegetarianism.

When I first saw that in a recent comic, I was thinking it didn't make any sense, that vegetarianism is a notion that Amazon culture (in which hunting plays a significant role) would find nonsensical and utterly foreign.... But then I got to thinking, maybe it *is* utterly foreign, and it's something Diana actually picked up from the outside world, and other Amazons *do* think it's weird....

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

From what I understand, it's her reaction to the way animals are bred and slaughtered in Man's World. She considers it inhumane.

[JKCarrier]

at that moment in that situation, killing Max was the only way out.

The writer can arrange things any way he wants to, especially in a universe full of magic, super-science, and psychic powers. If he wanted a non-killing solution, he could have easily cooked one up. But having her kill someone was the whole point, and everything else in that sequence was built around that goal.

A writer could contrive a scenario where Wonder Woman "has to" molest a 3-year-old in order to "save the world". But they wouldn't do that, because it's a dumb idea with no good purpose. I also think that her killing Max was a dumb idea with no good purpose. Why do it? Because it makes her look badass? Because the audience is so jaded that nothing short of "Faces of Death: The Themiscyra Edition" will get a rise out of them? What was the point?

[scout1279]

The debate over the moral implications and social causes of monkey crime have always been with us, and likely will be for centuries to come. I'm of the school, however, that judges monkeys by their deeds and the company they keep, not their words -- or arguments fashioned by fancy-pants monkey lawyers trying to get monkey criminals freed on technicalities!
You, my friend, are so win.

You will SO almost kinda sorta not really get your wish. ;)
I bet you're talking about the bowling, but I would prefer the monkey.

[Red Jack]

The writer can arrange things any way he wants to, especially in a universe full of magic, super-science, and psychic powers. If he wanted a non-killing solution, he could have easily cooked one up. But having her kill someone was the whole point, and everything else in that sequence was built around that goal.

A writer could contrive a scenario where Wonder Woman "has to" molest a 3-year-old in order to "save the world". But they wouldn't do that, because it's a dumb idea with no good purpose. I also think that her killing Max was a dumb idea with no good purpose. Why do it? Because it makes her look badass? Because the audience is so jaded that nothing short of "Faces of Death: The Themiscyra Edition" will get a rise out of them? What was the point?

1) I think the point with Diana is ALWAYS to differentiate her way of being a hero from those of Batman and Superman. If she isn't both equal to them and different from them there's no point in having her around.

2) Sure. The writer shapes everything we see. A given. But to net that massive Omac X-over down to the scene where Diana kills Max is to miss the point. Each of the big Three has to be capable of doing things the others won't or can't.

Bruce is s sneaky paranoid bastard who will lie to to his own allies to get the job done. Neither Diana or Kal is capable of that. Kal is the lightning rod, the pinacle of morality and decency. There is no Kobayashi Maru scenario for Superman. He ALWAYS finds a way not to kill to defeat his opponent. John Byrne screwed the pooch by writing him into that corner and it's been, thankfully, ignored ever since. neither Bruce nor Kal is capable of killing. Ever.

One of the things that makes Diana different is she is creature out of Greek myth. She has killed on multiple occasions when innocent lives were at stake (not her own). The situation with Max was the worst of the lot. It's not deus ex machina because it's part of her established character that she will kill when she thinks it necessary.

3)For better or worse, true or false, Diana has spent the bulk of her career as #3 in a trinity of supposed equals. Some of this is due to the idiocy of the man-children who make up the mass of fanboy world. Some is due to not letting her live up to her full potential.

Perez brought her up. Some would say Rucka did as well and now Our Miz Simone is doing her bit. But to ignore the fact that 100% of greco-roman heroes intentionally and without remorse killed at least one of their opponents when dealing with Diana is to miss a major part of her character construction.

It doesn't mean she does it often. it doesn't mean she thinks it's the best way. it means that in VERY rare circumstances she is the only member of the Big Three who's got the stones to follow through on that score.

[Spiffy]

This is a nice laundry list, in my opinion, so I'm going to key some responses off of it.

In no particular order I'd like to see.

1. Max Lord killing resolved somehow in a way that favours Diana.
Chuckle. Well, you know how I feel about this by now.


2. The relationship with Tom moving forward.

Yes and no.

While I liked the twist that Diana kind of became the "aggressor" pushing the relationship forward, I think that needs to be played with a bit to keep things unpredictable. I think we have to remember that ultimately, even if we accept that she's done this before, she can't be THAT experienced. I think that can be played for comedy a bit--the fact that she doesn't completely know what she's doing, and once he gains his feet that maybe she's the one who's a bit at a disadvantage. It can be light and fun, especially if there's a lot of dark stuff going on in the book otherwise.


3. A member of the Rogues gallery that can challenge Diana in every department, and hangs around.

4. A major victory against a 'superior' foe.


I'd actually like to see a Rogue that's less personally vested in beating Diana. Why? Because over the years it seems like there's a sameness to most of her Rogues--its more about beating Wonder Woman than pulling off some criminal enterprise. Having a villain where its less personal would actually benefit a longer story arc, I think, because there would be more of an element of pursuit from Wonder Woman's side and less of her having to defend herself.

And sure, have this be a superior foe as well. Have Diana be almost beneath this villains notice at first, he or she is so confident of getting whatever it is they want. Let the conflict grow, over a story arc of six issues or so.


5. Rehabilitation of the Amazons.

6. The end of her pledge to Kane and Diana returning to her Greek Gods but not kowtowing to them.

7. More page time for Hippolyta and more examination of her relationship with Diana.


These three can kind of go together, I think. One big story accomplishing all three of these.


8. This is a bit left field but I think one day, and I'm not saying right now, Diana should become a mother herself.
Can't really agree on this one, unless its an alternate reality story. Nothing would "age" the character faster, and the ways to undo that kind of move are almost always pretty lame ("the baby May" solution, the "Catwoman" solution, etc.)

[Ringslinger76]

Wonder Woman should not have a kid. Look at Superman, Spiderman, and the Flash. Those characters did not benefit from having offspring. Yes comic fans are older, and I have my own child.. I love my little Kent Allen BUT I don't want to read about Wonder Woman or Wally West changing diapers. I do that in real life. Yawn. I know in the movies that even Neo takes a crap in the Matrix, but I don't want to see that part.
Superheroes aren't the right venue for parenthood stories. Thats just my opinion. It takes away from the reckless adventurous parts. And unlike a job which a hero can get a new one.. if you stay out fighting crime off planet for days at a time, you have a dead baby waiting at home. Don't tell me Wonder Woman would always have time to get a babysitter before an adventure.

Say no to superhero kids.

Learn the lessons of Superman Returns. Then slap yourself for even thinking it.

[Tetsuo_man]

There are some of us who like the developements kids have made in those cases including marriage itself has. But you can disagree all you want. But still i'm not sure i'd want wondy to have a kid at this time but if gail did it i bet it would end up good like almost everything she's done. :cool:

[Spiffy]

1) I think the point with Diana is ALWAYS to differentiate her way of being a hero from those of Batman and Superman. If she isn't both equal to them and different from them there's no point in having her around.

2) Sure. The writer shapes everything we see. A given. But to net that massive Omac X-over down to the scene where Diana kills Max is to miss the point. Each of the big Three has to be capable of doing things the others won't or can't.

Bruce is s sneaky paranoid bastard who will lie to to his own allies to get the job done. Neither Diana or Kal is capable of that. Kal is the lightning rod, the pinacle of morality and decency. There is no Kobayashi Maru scenario for Superman. He ALWAYS finds a way not to kill to defeat his opponent. John Byrne screwed the pooch by writing him into that corner and it's been, thankfully, ignored ever since. neither Bruce nor Kal is capable of killing. Ever.

One of the things that makes Diana different is she is creature out of Greek myth. She has killed on multiple occasions when innocent lives were at stake (not her own). The situation with Max was the worst of the lot. It's not deus ex machina because it's part of her established character that she will kill when she thinks it necessary.

3)For better or worse, true or false, Diana has spent the bulk of her career as #3 in a trinity of supposed equals. Some of this is due to the idiocy of the man-children who make up the mass of fanboy world. Some is due to not letting her live up to her full potential.

Perez brought her up. Some would say Rucka did as well and now Our Miz Simone is doing her bit. But to ignore the fact that 100% of greco-roman heroes intentionally and without remorse killed at least one of their opponents when dealing with Diana is to miss a major part of her character construction.

It doesn't mean she does it often. it doesn't mean she thinks it's the best way. it means that in VERY rare circumstances she is the only member of the Big Three who's got the stones to follow through on that score.
Well, as much I've disagreed with you on some occasions, we appear to be on close to the same page with this particular issue. I think it was dumb/sloppy/unfair writing to put her in that extreme Max Lord situation, and the way it was dealt with after the fact even worse, but the heart of my analysis has indeed been that she's NOT a female version of Superman. His "thou shalt not kill" brand of heroism is fine for him--a being who can move mountains in milliseconds, measure any blow precisely due to a combination of super-precise muscles and a super-precise brain, and absorb any damage necessary to take the hardest road necessary, just to avoid using killing force. But its insane (and I contend arrogant of him, as a character) to put those standards on others who don't have his attributes.

And I actually think its part of Wonder Woman's character--a good part--that she recognizes the moral cost of killing and yet on those very rare occasions where its necessary is willing to do it anyway. Not because she doesn't feel the moral weight, but because she DOES, and CAN FACE IT.

It's really the flip side, as you say, of Batman being willing to lie to, and hide things from, his own allies. For him, this is a moral cost he's willing to accept, and its only a weakness in his character if and when a writer harps on it for extra drama and MAKES it so. Realistically, it can also be a strength of the character--being willing to accept a burden that others can't.

[Spiffy]

I want to see a bit more mythology from the rest of the glob or even beyond
This is actually a really good idea. Diana fighting mythological enemies outside the Greek tradition has actually turned out to be kind of cool, in the current story arc, and I'd like to see more of it.

[Ringslinger76]

I'm not trying to derail the thread but Tetsuo, what characters have improved with kids in your opinion? I'm not saying that I've never seen a good story with a kid, but I haven't seen any go long term in a good way. And please don't take this disagreement as disrespect... I just want to pick your brain a little more.

I love my son, but like I said... there's a time and place for those stories and superhero books are rarely the place. I love Snow White and Bigby's kids in Fables, but that universe plays by different rules and has different storytelling objectives than a tights and flights book.

Batman and Wonder Woman can get married and have kids in a one shot elseworlds and that be a lot of fun, but I think in Flash we see how long terming the idea of Superhero offspring can derail the focus of the book. You end up turning Wonder Woman into a team book or drastically shrinking the action of what is supposed to be an action book.

And I can think of much better uses of time in a movie than letting Brian Singer or whoever was responsible work through his/her daddy issues in a Superman story.

I do think it can work for non A-listers like Red Arrow who can be more flexible and aren't expected to carry a book.

Lets be realistic... If Spiderman did have a kid... in character.. he would retire soon after. He'd back and forth and beat himself up, but he'd retire. A parents greatest responsibility is to his or her child. You can do a lot of things as a parent.... keep your child safe and fight the Green Goblin isn't one of those things.

He'd retire.

Wonder Woman... wouldn't retire, but she'd start sitting out certain missions. In a way she has a parental role to Donna and Cassie anyway. A good writer.. like Gail, can explore that without being so literal. I'd worry that when a less talented writer inherits that situation the book would become a talking head book or worse... just bad.

[Tetsuo_man]

Wally west was the most interesting thing to happen to wally in years and i am one of the few who think damian has added something interesting to the batman mythos. Plus i liked superman returns. Maybe i'm just weird. anyway lets get back on topic.

I also don't think spider-man would nessicariy need to quit if he had a kid but that's just weird ole me.

[Chiroptera]

That's what I said. If it's just HER life on the line, she won't kill. Under any circumstances.

Just my opinion.

Whoa!
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... Lois, this is not my Batman glass.


And now for something completely different!
I just have to follow this line of thought further, Gail.
So, if Diana was in a fight for her life you don't believe she'd kill?
Let's say it's a character akin to Doomsday. Someone of her complete equal, perhaps even her superior. Someone who seems nigh impervious to harm. He engages her. A fight to the finish, there's no way to stop him except to kill him; in that instance she would simply let herself be killed rather than kill herself?

I just don't get that, especially with Wonder Woman.
Here we have a woman who frequently has called herself "a warrior born." A woman whose people are natural fighters, always seeking peace but willing to do battle to achieve it. A woman who seeks to be more human, who has become it whenever she takes off her costume now, who experiences human thought and emotion and instinct.

Your saying that in a kill or be killed situation, she'd take be killed? Even though it goes against every basic human instinct, and every aspect of amazon society?

[troy2g1]

Whoa!
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... Lois, this is not my Batman glass.


And now for something completely different!
I just have to follow this line of thought further, Gail.
So, if Diana was in a fight for her life you don't believe she'd kill?
Let's say it's similar to the Superman V Doomsday thing, a fight to the finish, there appears to be absolutely no way to stop her opponent except to kill him; in that instance she would simply let herself be killed rather than kill herself?

I just don't get that, especially with Wonder Woman.
Here we have a woman who frequently has called herself "a warrior born." A woman whose people are natural fighters, always seeking peace but willing to do battle to achieve it. A woman who seeks to be more human, who has become it whenever she takes off her costume now, who experiences human thought and emotion and instinct.

Your saying that in a kill or be killed situation, she'd take be killed? Even though it goes against every basic human instinct, and every aspect of amazon society?

I believe the main difference in those two ideas would be that Doomsday wasn't only a threat to Diana. He was a rampaging beast who left destruction and death in his wake.

Max Lord wasn't only a threat to Wonder Woman but also to Lois Lane, Batman, Superman himself and every other hero.

[BnL]

I'd actually like to see a Rogue that's less personally vested in beating Diana. Why? Because over the years it seems like there's a sameness to most of her Rogues--its more about beating Wonder Woman than pulling off some criminal enterprise. Having a villain where its less personal would actually benefit a longer story arc, I think, because there would be more of an element of pursuit from Wonder Woman's side and less of her having to defend herself.

Actually, I think that's something that works in Wonder Woman's favor. Reforming villains is a big theme with her, and it's one of the reasons that she doesn't have a very big rogues gallery at this point. But there are a few that have stuck around, because they have such strong emotion/obsession/hate directed at Diana. It's personal. And that means they're highly resistant to reformation. They're the worst of the worst.

Now granted, I think that Wonder Woman definitely needs a larger, more powerful set of villains, but I really enjoy the personal aspect of her villains and I think it makes sense for the character. I think it's the only way to build a consistent rogues gallery for her too, because if it's just a criminal that she comes across randomly and has no personal ties to, sooner or later, they're going to get rehabilitated.

I see what you're saying about Diana usually being on the defensive, waiting for horrible things to happen to her and those she loves. That's a common trap writers have fallen into with Wonder Woman, I think. But that doesn't mean that she can't ever be on the pursuit too, because there's definitely room for that with these kinds of villains.

[Chiroptera]

I believe the main difference in those two ideas would be that Doomsday wasn't only a threat to Diana. He was a rampaging beast who left destruction and death in his wake.

Max Lord wasn't only a threat to Wonder Woman but also to Lois Lane, Batman, Superman himself and every other hero.

The doomsday reference was more about the character than the situation, but your right, let me edit that for clarity.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

I already asked Gail this on DC's Wonder forum awhile back, but I'd still like to see Tsaritsa, The Queen Of Fables show up at some point in the run.

[BnL]

I already asked Gail this on DC's Wonder forum awhile back, but I'd still like to see Tsaritsa, The Queen Of Fables show up at some point in the run.

Good call. And there's one more thing I want to see that I forgot to mention earlier.

Amazons VS Valkyries.

Make it happen, Gail!

[Red Jack]

Good call. And there's one more thing I want to see that I forgot to mention earlier.

Amazons VS Valkyries.

Make it happen, Gail!

Aw HELL yeah!

[tangentman]

1. The return of Dr. Cyber--preferably running a lucrative mercenary enterprise ironically called "Villainy, Inc." Keep the armor, but I want the return of the devious woman who plagued the Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman like no other! Maybe even a modern take on that infamous "Face Off" plot!

2. Guest appearances by Black Canary, the Birds of Prey, Zatanna, and Donna Troy.

3. The return of Nu'bia!

4. Wonder Woman's take on the divisive political terrain of the States.

5. Seeing Wildcat's reaction to "Amazons Attack". Ted loved Polly, even if they never would've worked out. What are his thoughts on Hippolyta's resurrection?

6. What's going on with the supporting cast from writers past? The Kapatellis family, Kevin Mayer, Steve Trevor, Helena Sandsmark, the African-American family who took in Polly when she anonymously lived in Louisiana, Trevor Barnes' surviving family.

7. Wonder Woman battling subterranean mole men!

8. Wonder Woman vs. the giants from outer space!

9. Let's see the REAL Invisible Jet.

10. How 'bout that Secret Six crossover?

[BnL]

1. The return of Dr. Cyber--preferably running a lucrative mercenary enterprise ironically called "Villainy, Inc." Keep the armor, but I want the return of the devious woman who plagued the Pre-Crisis Wonder Woman like no other! Maybe even a modern take on that infamous "Face Off" plot!

Dr. Cyber is a must. I remember way back, Gail said she'd appear. I suspect her return will take place in the project she's doing with Ethan Van Sciver, because he recently described the villain as female, a classic Wonder Woman villain who has faded into obscurity, and one of the most realistic villains in the DCU. I figure it's gotta be either Dr. Cyber or Paula Von Gunther.

[Spiffy]

Dr. Cyber is a must.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wonder_Woman_enemies


What's the deal with WW having so many enemies with "Doctor" in the name?

Doctor Psycho, Doctor Cyber, Doctor Moon, Doctor Poison, Doctor Domino...

Also, TITLES in general seem to be a big theme...

Baroness Paula Von Gunther, Duke of Deception, Princess Yasmini, Queen Clea, King Neptune, Minister Blizzard, Termite Queen, Duke Dazam, Professor Menace, Queen Mikra, Professor Andro, Baron Blitzkrieg, Empress of the Silver Snake, Captain Wonder...

I guess it must be because SHE has a title, Princess, but even still, no wonder people complain about her Rogues. There really IS a sense of sameness to many of them.

[BnL]

She has fought a lot of royalty, hasn't she?

And yeah, I'd definitely be in favor of dropping the "Doctor," and just calling her "Cyber."

The weird thing about Wonder Woman's Pre-Crisis rogues gallery is that, even though they're totally silly and bizarre, I actually see potential in a lot of them to be modernized into kick ass villains.

[4PointOh]

3) For better or worse, true or false, Diana has spent the bulk of her career as #3 in a trinity of supposed equals. Some of this is due to the idiocy of the man-children who make up the mass of fanboy world. Some is due to not letting her live up to her full potential.

This is hilarious because it's true.

[4PointOh]

Okay, this. THIS is what I totally want to see in WONDER WOMAN:


http://www.newsarama.com/comics/080707-EVSWWC.html

However, the artist does know about his upcoming Wonder Woman project with Gail Simone, which was announced at that same panel.

"I can only say that it is totally awesome. We're taking an old classic Wonder Woman villain that nobody seems to care about and uplifting her and making her into the sickest and probably the most realistic supervillain in the DCU. This is going to be a drastic change from what people might expect from me and Gail on a Wonder Woman story. I think it's going to surprise a lot of people," he said, then joked: "But we're both geniuses and we're wildly unpredictable. We get ideas, and who knows where they come from. The ethers of the cosmos. And we have to run with them. We have no choice."

The two have discussed working together on Wonder Woman for awhile, Van Sciver said, but he thinks maybe Simone didn't take him seriously. "I've been saying that to her for years, but I think she thought I was kidding or something, and finally, I dreamt this idea up. I just had this idea for this character and a new approach for this classic villain, and I said, 'Gail! Now's the time! Let's do it!'" he said.

After Van Sciver told the idea to her, "She said, 'Oh my God!' and the next day, she had a million of her own ideas," he said.

Van Sciver isn't sure when the Wonder Woman story will come out. "We're just playing it loose. I don't mind people knowing what it is. Gail wanted to keep it secret, but I don't really know why. It's what

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I´d be happy with a costume change.
She´s not american, why does she wear the american flag?
I jumped on my seat when I saw her costume in isue#20.
A truly wonderful start, but will it last?
Nothing wrong with the chest emblem (everyone has had birds in their flag) but - Off with the starry shorts!


<- cues the mob yelling "-Oooh, change, nooo, that´s b-a-a-d." :rolleyes:

[JKCarrier]

But to ignore the fact that 100% of greco-roman heroes intentionally and without remorse killed at least one of their opponents when dealing with Diana is to miss a major part of her character construction.

I'm missing stuff? You're the one who wants to ignore the first four decades of the character's existence, and pretend she was created in 1986. All the stuff you consider "essential" is in fact retcons applied way after the fact, which largely contradict the original intent.

The whole point of Wonder Woman is not that she's some prehistoric anachronism, but an ambassador from a more advanced culture. The Amazons rejected the ways of ancient Greece, and went off to create something better. If Paradise Island isn't a highly-developed, morally-advanced civilization, but rather a bunch of stupid bumpkins stuck in the past, then the whole idea of sending Diana out into the world to teach us a better way becomes a joke.

Wonder Woman is all about beating the odds, doing things that seem impossible. For her to take the easy, expedient way out diminishes her. Any dumbass could resolve things by killing Max Lord. I expect better from the #1 superheroine in the world.

[Wonder Watcher]

I think we need to see a few political stories with Wonder Woman too.

[ducklord]

1. An exploration of how Wonder Woman feels about one of her less-stressed gifts: Aphrodite's gift of beauty. Is she embarrassed by it? How would she comport herself if Aphrodite, perhaps feeling slighted, took her unsurpassed beauty away?

2. Stories that get into the nature of truth are always fun to play with. Do wacky stuff with the lasso.

3. Until he showed up in this month's Superman, I always thought the First Issue Special version of Atlas would've been a good character to cross paths with Wonder Woman.

4. Personally, I'd like to see some stories that homage/update some of the admittedly kinkier aspects of the Golden Age Wonder Woman. The bondage/"loving submission". The strange magical realms/planets ruled by curiously-organized matriarchies. There was some darned strange (and somewhat subversive) stuff running through those early stories, and I'd like to see Gail try her hand at that.

5. Wonder Freakin' Tot, dammit! Seriously, if Aquaman gets an imp, why shouldn't Diana?

6. Inversion (the Inside-Out Man), Mouse Man, and Minister Blizzard. Just cuz.

7. Amazons, back on the Island, ruled by Hippolyta.

8. One fan service/continuity porn scene in which Hippolyta, Diana, Miss America, and the Golden Age Fury discuss the fate of Fury II. They don't have to go on an epic 4-issue mission to "rescue" her or anything, but some indication that all these women who were tied up in her life actually remember her would be nice.

9. A reappearance by Steve Trevor would be pleasant. Has he appeared in Wonder Woman since the reset?

10. Nemesis vs. the Unknown Soldier vs. The Human Target vs. Dumas vs. Black Orchid in the bowels of the Pentagon.

Mike

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I´d also like Gail to retcon the mea culpa phase she went through for killing lord.
She´s a warrior and it was a combat situation.

Did US soldiers in Omaha beach get court martial every time they shot a nazi?

[Red Jack]

I'm missing stuff? You're the one who wants to ignore the first four decades of the character's existence, and pretend she was created in 1986. All the stuff you consider "essential" is in fact retcons applied way after the fact, which largely contradict the original intent.

You need to get over that. Seriously. The golden and silver ages are DONE. Finished. Gone bye-bye. They were mostly badly drawn, almost universally crapily written and, most important, couldn't hold up not only to the bizarre sensibilities of modern fanboys but would wither before the jaded gazes of actual teens. Get over it. That Wonder Woman is dead. For decades now. She ain't coming back.

The whole point of Wonder Woman is not that she's some prehistoric anachronism, but an ambassador from a more advanced culture. The Amazons rejected the ways of ancient Greece, and went off to create something better.

They sure dress like ancient Greeks. They still worship the Greek pantheon. They still call themsleves Amazons. There sure are a lot of weapons on that island.

If Paradise Island isn't a highly-developed, morally-advanced civilization, but rather a bunch of stupid bumpkins stuck in the past, then the whole idea of sending Diana out into the world to teach us a better way becomes a joke.

Yeah, I'm not so big on the "teaching the world" anything. Who the hell are they to teach us how to be better people? They're an apartheid society based on gender. The "actual" Amazons had men with them. The "traditional" roles were simply reversed. That and the occasional raid-for-sex-partners but, honestly, who's going to fight that?

"I am Diana, princess of Themyscira. We need males for breeding purposes."
"Island full of hyper-fit, barely dressed women."
"Yes."
"And the only thing they want males for is sex?"
"Yes, we need more Amazons."
"Sex and nothing else?"
"You'll be fed, of course and you have the run of the island for the most part."
"No talking?"
"What would we possibly have to talk about?"
"No chores?"
"Who would trust a man to do anything properly?"
"Island paradise."
"We call it that, sometimes, yes."
"Just sex on demand?"
"Yes."
"Hmmm."
"Yes?"
"I think you're going to need a bigger boat."

Wonder Woman is all about beating the odds, doing things that seem impossible. For her to take the easy, expedient way out diminishes her. Any dumbass could resolve things by killing Max Lord. I expect better from the #1 superheroine in the world.

I don't think it was "easy." It wasn't depicted as easy and there has been considerable (undeserved, IMO) hand wringing and moaning about what was, essentially, a necessary act.

[Gamiel]

Aw HELL yeah!

I second that!

[JKCarrier]

You need to get over that. Seriously.

I should change my tastes to match what's popular? Yeah, I'll get right on that. Hand me that Miley Cyrus CD. :rolleyes:

Yeah, I'm not so big on the "teaching the world" anything.

Considering that's a key element of both the pre- and post-Crisis Wonder Woman, I guess you'd better get over it. :tongue:

The "actual" Amazons had men with them.

Which has what to do with Wonder Woman, exactly? That's kind of like complaining that the Martian Manhunter doesn't reflect what the planet Mars is "really" like.

[Spiffy]

I´d be happy with a costume change.
She´s not american, why does she wear the american flag?
I jumped on my seat when I saw her costume in isue#20.
A truly wonderful start, but will it last?
Nothing wrong with the chest emblem (everyone has had birds in their flag) but - Off with the starry shorts!


<- cues the mob yelling "-Oooh, change, nooo, that´s b-a-a-d." :rolleyes:
Her character history is pretty indelibly linked with America. Even with reboots, it would be a tough parting to disassociate her.

I think it should always be there, but maybe a bit more subtle.

[Spiffy]

1. An exploration of how Wonder Woman feels about one of her less-stressed gifts: Aphrodite's gift of beauty. Is she embarrassed by it? How would she comport herself if Aphrodite, perhaps feeling slighted, took her unsurpassed beauty away?
Diana has always seemed pretty comfortable with her looks, but this is an interesting idea. Has she developed some vanity? I've seen stories where characters insist that she's somewhat unaware of her the effect of her Beauty (I'm thinking there was something with Batman insisting this recently), but what if they are wrong?

Assuming Aphrodite COULD take the gift away (for a short story arc, I'd say--maybe even only a single issue), I think there'd be an interesting story. I don't think an ugly creature would be revealed, but it would be interesting to see WW look in a mirror and see a humble ORDINARY face. Or better yet... what if its an illusion? If this is safely after WW has made up with the gods, but this is some future time when (because gods ARE capricious) Aphrodite thinks Diana needs to learn a lesson, tells her she's taken her looks, but all she's done is made Diana THINK she has. And nobody else sees the change except her!


2. Stories that get into the nature of truth are always fun to play with. Do wacky stuff with the lasso.

Insta-premise proposal: Sometimes there's a duality to truth. Explore the notion of subjective truth in a story where discerning the truth is key to something very important, and Wonder Woman is either fooled by her lasso's reaction, or perhaps not fooled but knows she has to track it down, very quickly, in some other fashion.


5. Wonder Freakin' Tot, dammit! Seriously, if Aquaman gets an imp, why shouldn't Diana?

Please... no. I mean, it would be like bringing back Streaky the Supercat or Comet the Super-Horse. Do we really want that?

[scout1279]

Please... no. I mean, it would be like bringing back Streaky the Supercat or Comet the Super-Horse. Do we really want that?

If it's in an all ages Supergirl title, then yes. Absolutely.

[Tetsuo_man]

would i like to see wonder tot? Yes. would i want wonder tot in the main dcu universe? no.

[Gail Simone]

Whoa!
Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa... Lois, this is not my Batman glass.


And now for something completely different!
I just have to follow this line of thought further, Gail.
So, if Diana was in a fight for her life you don't believe she'd kill?
Let's say it's a character akin to Doomsday. Someone of her complete equal, perhaps even her superior. Someone who seems nigh impervious to harm. He engages her. A fight to the finish, there's no way to stop him except to kill him; in that instance she would simply let herself be killed rather than kill herself?

I just don't get that, especially with Wonder Woman.
Here we have a woman who frequently has called herself "a warrior born." A woman whose people are natural fighters, always seeking peace but willing to do battle to achieve it. A woman who seeks to be more human, who has become it whenever she takes off her costume now, who experiences human thought and emotion and instinct.

Your saying that in a kill or be killed situation, she'd take be killed? Even though it goes against every basic human instinct, and every aspect of amazon society?


Nope. YOU said that. I said what I said.

[Gail Simone]

I already asked Gail this on DC's Wonder forum awhile back, but I'd still like to see Tsaritsa, The Queen Of Fables show up at some point in the run.

I think that will likely happen. When I created her, it was primarily as a nemesis for Diana in particular, to have a JLA story that focused mostly on her.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Her character history is pretty indelibly linked with America. Even with reboots, it would be a tough parting to disassociate her.

I think it should always be there, but maybe a bit more subtle.


I don´t want it subtle, I want it gone.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

I don't think Diana will be changing costumes anytime soon. Gail's gone on record stating she likes the current outfit.

As I've said before, I don't care for the idea of Wonder Tot being reintroduced as an imp. Changes the whole concept. Only way I can think of for Wonder Tot to work in the current series is maybe Diana telling a story, perhaps, of when she was a child to a group of children, and them imagining it.

Re: Inversion, Mouse Man, and Minister Blizzard. Well, Gail's promised at least ONE of them's coming back... :wink:

[tangentman]

ducklord & Spiffy: A fascinating idea! Personally, I think Diana tends to humbly accept her looks as a gift from Aphrodite. She doesn't play on them, she just accepts that she's considered "beautiful" in the mortal world. Don't forget that Aphrodite also gave Diana a loving heart and beauty of spirit--gifts which Diana profoundly appreciates. Judging by the modern series, Diana feels extreme gratitude for an ability to generously and willingly love the world around her. In addition to "Truth", Love is one of the major impulses which drives Wonder Woman.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

I don't think Diana will be changing costumes anytime soon. Gail's gone on record stating she likes the current outfit.

Which is why my elite cadre of Gail Simone impersonators is airborne and crossing the atlantic as we speak. :biggrin:

[BnL]

I wouldn't complain if Wonder Woman's panties got replaced with a classical warrior's skirt, and her top was held up with shoulder straps. Not that I expect this ever to happen, nor do I view it as an important issue, but it would be nice.

[Flying Saucers Over Oz]

Gail's also promised a Doctor Cyber story. We keep track of these things, Gail!

Diana has fought a lot of 'Doctors' and more than her share of royalty. With the latter, I suspect it's partly due to her frequent Golden Age trips to Ozzy lands to thwart evil dicators and the like.

Still, I don't think Doctor Cyber is a bad name, as long as they don't try to pretend it's her real name. (Pre-Crisis, they once claimed she was named something like Cylvia Cyber, which is just cylly...) Cyber by itself just kinda lies there...

[BnL]

Gail's also promised a Doctor Cyber story. We keep track of these things, Gail!

Diana has fought a lot of 'Doctors' and more than her share of royalty. With the latter, I suspect it's partly due to her frequent Golden Age trips to Ozzy lands to thwart evil dicators and the like.

Still, I don't think Doctor Cyber is a bad name, as long as they don't try to pretend it's her real name. (Pre-Crisis, they once claimed she was named something like Cylvia Cyber, which is just cylly...) Cyber by itself just kinda lies there...

It's not that Dr. Cyber is a bad name, it's just that Wonder Woman's also got a Dr. Psycho and a Dr. Poison featured prominently in her rogues gallery.

[ducklord]

I don't think Diana will be changing costumes anytime soon. Gail's gone on record stating she likes the current outfit.

As I've said before, I don't care for the idea of Wonder Tot being reintroduced as an imp. Changes the whole concept. Only way I can think of for Wonder Tot to work in the current series is maybe Diana telling a story, perhaps, of when she was a child to a group of children, and them imagining it.

Re: Inversion, Mouse Man, and Minister Blizzard. Well, Gail's promised at least ONE of them's coming back... :wink:

I think if Wonder Tot done over as an imp, she'd definitely be a tiny child imp (as opposed to the adult impishness of Mxyzptlk and Bat-Mite), which would allow her to keep the freaky baby talk and adventurous spirit of the original character while properly making her over into a reusable magical character in her own right.

Of course, one could justifiably question the wisdom of trying to shoehorn Wonder Tot into modern Wonder Woman stories in any capacity :)

Mike

[Chiroptera]

Nope. YOU said that. I said what I said.

Would you elaborate on what your saying then? After rereading it repeatedly, I'm still not able to see what else you could mean, but I am very curious!

[4PointOh]

Would you elaborate on what your saying then? After rereading it repeatedly, I'm still not able to see what else you could mean, but I am very curious!

Maybe that Diana would find another option or die trying.

[Wonder Watcher]

I think that will likely happen. When I created her, it was primarily as a nemesis for Diana in particular, to have a JLA story that focused mostly on her.Cool, I didn't know she was yours. A great villain and I have fond memories of that JLA arc. Wonderfully drawn by Bryan Hitch too.

[Wonder Watcher]

Would you elaborate on what your saying then? After rereading it repeatedly, I'm still not able to see what else you could mean, but I am very curious!That's kind of what I thought too, looking forward to seeing the story.

[Wonder Watcher]

I don't think Diana will be changing costumes anytime soon. Gail's gone on record stating she likes the current outfit. That's because Gail knows her current outfit is iconic, looks great and doesn't need re-imagining. The alternative costumes in this arc have been a huge amount of fun but I wouldn't want them to be permanent.

As I've said before, I don't care for the idea of Wonder Tot being reintroduced as an imp. Changes the whole concept. Only way I can think of for Wonder Tot to work in the current series is maybe Diana telling a story, perhaps, of when she was a child to a group of children, and them imagining it.:Please, no Wonder Tot...at all.

[Gail Simone]

Maybe that Diana would find another option or die trying.

Thank you.

[JKCarrier]

Please, no Wonder Tot...at all.

Party pooper. :tongue:

Still, it would be interesting to see some flashbacks to Diana's childhood. That had to be a really strange upbringing, being the first child any of the Amazons had seen in centuries. ("Hera help me, I'd forgotten how much I hated changing diapers!")

[Spiffy]

I don´t want it subtle, I want it gone.
Well, I guess you aren't going to be very pleased by the analysis done of Diana's motives for wearing the "American" outfit, and its overall symbolism, discussed in the latest issue of Trinity (#6).

It makes it clear that, at the very least, Kurt Busiek violently disagrees with your point of view.

[Kurt Busiek]

Well, I guess you aren't going to be very pleased by the analysis done of Diana's motives for wearing the "American" outfit, and its overall symbolism, discussed in the latest issue of Trinity (#6).

It makes it clear that, at the very least, Kurt Busiek violently disagrees with your point of view.

Hey, speak for yourself. I don't violently disagree with people -- for one thing, even if I was violently inclined, it's hard to do through the internet.

Nor does TRINITY #6 say a thing about Wonder Woman's uniform or its symbolism. It talks about her actions, not her clothing.

kdb

[Eliseu Gouveia]

Hey, speak for yourself. I don't violently disagree with people -- for one thing, even if I was violently inclined, it's hard to do through the internet.

Nor does TRINITY #6 say a thing about Wonder Woman's uniform or its symbolism. It talks about her actions, not her clothing.

kdb

Cool!

Thanks for not torpedoing my hopes. ^_^

[Gail Simone]

Hey, speak for yourself. I don't violently disagree with people -- for one thing, even if I was violently inclined, it's hard to do through the internet.

Nor does TRINITY #6 say a thing about Wonder Woman's uniform or its symbolism. It talks about her actions, not her clothing.

kdb

Oh, thank goodness...we are doing some major work on the origin of the costume!

:)

But of all the writers out there, Kurt is one guy I am DELIGHTED is writing Wonder Woman, so him? SO not worried about. :)

Plus he was kind enough to ask about the direction we were taking her so it would match up.

Kurt's the good stuff.

[4PointOh]

Oh, thank goodness...we are doing some major work on the origin of the costume!

:)

But of all the writers out there, Kurt is one guy I am DELIGHTED is writing Wonder Woman, so him? SO not worried about. :)

Plus he was kind enough to ask about the direction we were taking her so it would match up.

Kurt's the good stuff.

I was about to say that you've inserted symb