Mom doesn't like me hanging around YABS.

[Sgt. Fuzzy]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Thats kinda weird....I mean....your online. Its not like your in the same room with anyone. Maybe you should stand up to your mom and say "Hey its no big deal , its a comic book site and so a few posters are gay. I'm sure theres a lot who are black and hell...some maybe even "gasp" live in other countries !"


:tongue:

[cedardryad]

I don't think anyone will hate you because you don't advocate homosexuality. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Its good to see that you are open to learning more about homosexuality.

Knowledge is power, and knowing is half the battle. G.I Joeee.

Anyways, you aren't outwardly bashing gays, as far as I know, so I don't see a reason to hate you. I, however, can't speak for everyone else on YABS. Gay people aren't different from anyone at all. People are people. We are all a bunch of stupid morons.:biggrin:

Oh, and I'm sure there are black gays from other countries on here, that may also be pagan or Jewish or even...Muslim. :biggrin:

[Cam63]

*Waves g'day to Fuzzie's silly cow of a mum*

[Michael P]

Tell her it's impossible to catch "the gay" over the Internet.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Tell her it's impossible to catch "the gay" over the Internet.

Shhhh don't tell him that. Since I came to YABS I've been listening to a lot of Elton John .

[Merey]

Please also tell your mom that she is of a dying breed and one day will be a relic of the days of yore.

[Infra-Man]

Tell her it's impossible to catch "the gay" over the Internet.

Though you can use the internet to purchase a copy of The Cay.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/The_Cay_cover.jpg

[bert]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.

I don't mind answering any questions at all. . .if you want to post here, that's fine (I'll let you know if I prefer to answer in PM).

I see from your profile that you are only 16.

I'm all for respecting your elders (especially a parent). . but if you're old enough to express yourself as coherently as you have above? you're old enough to have your own viewpoints, and not be forced to believe what your parents tell you.

however, at 16, you are still living at home, and you should respect your Mother's wishes. Is logging in from the Library an option?

[Matt Algren]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.
Sgt. Fuzzy, I'm Methodist too. I'm also gay, and I have no trouble reconciling the two. Not anymore, at least.

Here's a good place to start (http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian) when you're looking at the Bible and homosexuality. It isn't the UMC perspective, but only by about a 5% swing (43 votes) at General Conference (http://matt.reclaimrecess.com/2008/05/united-methodist-church-shames-god/) in April. Here's a link (http://www.rmnetwork.org/mission.asp) to a group of Methodist clergy and layfolks who disagree with the Church's general opinion and is working to change it. Lots of resources there as well.

[Cayman]

Though you can use the internet to purchase a copy of The Cay.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/The_Cay_cover.jpg

That's how I caught it.

[Gail Simone]

Sgt. Fuzzy, I'm Methodist too. I'm also gay, and I have no trouble reconciling the two. Not anymore, at least.

Here's a good place to start (http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian) when you're looking at the Bible and homosexuality. It isn't the UMC perspective, but only by about a 5% swing (43 votes) at General Conference (http://matt.reclaimrecess.com/2008/05/united-methodist-church-shames-god/) in April. Here's a link (http://www.rmnetwork.org/mission.asp) to a group of Methodist clergy and layfolks who disagree with the Church's general opinion and is working to change it. Lots of resources there as well.

That's weird, I didn't know you were gay, Matt.

[Mr.EZ]

The point of life is being better than your parents, and it sounds like Fuzzy doesn't really have far to go.

[Gail Simone]

Guys, please remember he does come from Singapore, which is attempting to adjust to the reality of gay people, but has until very recently been very much against it in any form at all. He's coming from a very different background, but thins ARE changing there.

I think it's brave and perfectly fine to ask questions about it, Fuzzy. And while I respect your mother, I could not disagree with her more. If I cut the gay people I know out of my life, it's MY life that would be lessened immeasurably. And cutting yourself off from good, caring people, even if you oppose their lifestyle, is a bit of a shame.

Don't feel you have to push yourself either way. Just keep an open mind. The truth is, no one is the same person at 26 that they are at 16. Change will come for good or ill. But having met you, I think I can say with confidence that you're going to be a fine young man and I have no concerns about the person you will become. We don't have to grow up to be our parents, in any case.

Good luck.

[Matt Algren]

That's weird, I didn't know you were gay, Matt.
Not so weird. I've been out less than a year. I just haven't mentioned it in threads where you were.

edit: I didn't realize Fuzzy was from Singapore. That almost certainly changes the customs and norms that he has to navigate.

[Gail Simone]

Not so weird. I've been out less than a year. I just haven't mentioned it in threads where you were.

Ah. Well, I'm glad you're out and I hope it went well for you.

[Sabrinaset]

I'll chime in too, Sgt. Fuzzy. I'm a lesbian, a Conservative, and a nondenominational Christian who goes to church when she can ... usually at the chapel at work. So, if you have any questions, you can ask me in PM or on the boards, I don't really mind.

Also ...

Please also tell your mom that she is of a dying breed and one day will be a relic of the days of yore.

...don't do this. Trust me.



I was surprised about Matt too. In fact, I just found out in the Mega 3000 Political thread. Heyas!

[DavidAllred]

Fuzzy,

Can ask how old you are?

Here's my advice for whatever its worth. First and foremost, give your mom respect. I don't agree with my folks on many things, but I respect them. They don't drink and they've never asked me to not drink around them, but I would if they did. I wouldn't necessarily de-beer myself at dinner without a conversation with them about it, but I'd honor them as best I could... which in the case of having a Samuel Adams or a Coke, would be a pretty easy choice.

Second thing I would point out is that any belief worth its weight in salt is one that operates independent of its surroundings. Building confidence in what you believe and why you believe it is part of growing up. The only real dangerous ideas are ones that forbid meaningful dialogue between people or groups of people.

Most homosexuals (not all) are quite used to being around folks that don't agree with their lifestyle or orientation... in some ways they've grown to expect it. Some have grown bitter, but by and large I think you and your mother will find out that they are willing and open to hear you out-- provided you are in turn willing to actually listen and hear them out.

Where you choose to offer up a closed door is your business, but don't expect to keep places shut off from dialogue and then expect the person you're talking with to keep their's constantly open. Life doesn't work that way at all. It's better to find the places that you can agree and use that as a starting point for a relationship-- be it RL or online.

So you can't advocate for homosexuality, it's ok for you to start there... that's just where you are. But could you advocate for equal rights in the areas of hospital visitation, insurance, or child adoption? Maybe two of the three? Maybe just one?

Rather than focus on what you won't advocate for, ask yourself -- ask your mom in friendly conversation-- "What can we realistically advocate for in the name of justice?" Rather than using difference as an opportunity to close dialogue, why not find a similarity as a place to actually begin meaningful dialogue.

In spite of the energy required to constantly affront homosexuality, ask your mom why we as Christians don't do a better job of "protecting" marriage ourselves? Could it be that we're so busy looking outside that we forgot to look inside?

Ultimately, this community is probably one of the safer places to explore these sorts of things because the board is fairly diverse. Most people can communicate back and forth with a degree of intellect, reason, and heartfelt emotion. You might get a crack comment every so often, what message board doesn't? But for the most part, I think you'll find the YABS folks willing to create a safe place for you to explore these issues, which in turn, you should explore with your parents.

Long story short, don't start with confrontation... not here, not at home. Start where ever you can start feeling like you still have both your feet on the ground. It might get messy at times, but in my experience, God works best in a mess.

For what its worth feel free to PM me anytime. I hear your reservations and your mom's. I've been a pastor for 17 years and I've been down this path a hundred times with different folks. I don't discount them at all... but don't shut a door, even if it means just being able to better clarify why you're standing in the room your in.

Most of all, be willing to take a stand for justice for all people... even the ones outside your own world view.

I was listening to Toad the Wet Sprocket's "Amnesia" on the way to church this morning:

The final solution’s back in style
We are the ones letting it ride
I never knew we were so blind
Amnesia in comfort, so unkind

Tell me
When they come for you
Who will there be to speak
And when they come for you
Who will there be left to speak for you?


Taken from poem written during the Holocaust:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Well, I don't think most gay people 'advocate' for gay people.... :confused:

I do think that you don't have to prove or justify anything to your mother. You can be respectful and assert yourself at the same time. I know it's easier in some cultures than others, but it CAN be done.

Likewise, gay people don't have to prove or justify anything to anyone else. It's cool that you're willing to open yourself, I suppose. At the same time, I'm not sure what you're asking for.

At any rate, since this all 'started' with the happiest day of my life (and yes, it really was) I feel like I should have a bon mot or bit of wisdom, being the original pariah that she's finding disgusting. Instead, I'll cut a clip of the Plato read at the service.... from Aristophanes' speech in the Symposium:

Let no one oppose love. For if we are friends of all beings and at peace we shall find our own true loves. If our loves were perfectly accomplished, and each one returning to her primeval nature had her original true love, then our race would be happy.

Really, that's all it's about. Just that, and no more: letting yourself love, and letting love make you happy.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Whoa I didn't know your were from another country. I suppose it would be a hard culteral thing involved. I hope things get better....

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Also....?

And I mean this with all respect.......


....I would have appriciated not knowing the 'cause' of this.

As detached as I know I should feel, knowing it's her issues and not my own...... I'm feeling right now like I was stabbed in the gut with a knife made of ice.

I think if anyone else had the news of their wedding, and presumably pictures, up, and it it announced that these caused disgust and family dissent.... they'd understand. Obviously, this won't happen to hardly anyone else, but they can vouch for the..... sacredness and joy of those memories.

Well, I've had to run to the toilet retching a few times, is the thing.

I have a hard enough time, I get a lot of harassment on the streets and in stores.... it's been a tremendous amount, lately, for whatever reason. Understand that posting pictures was an act that I did because they were requested and because I wanted to share my joy, but it was also an act that made me feel extremely vulnerable. Simply put..... I would have appreciated a little tact here.

Just FYI, if you're ever in a situation like this again..... perhaps asking for the input while being a little more general about the cause other than 'you and your beloved and your sacred union caused my mom disgust'.... would be wisest.

No hard feelings, don't think that there are.... I know you mean well. Hopefully, you can understand my POV here as well.

[TCJohnson]

Only thing i have to add is that I really respect Sgt. Fuzzy for his honesty. I mean that sincerely.

[mgs]

Please also tell your mom that she is of a dying breed and one day will be a relic of the days of yore.

I don't believe that. People will always have their differing opinions on things. Right or wrong. I think your statement is a false hope.

[TCJohnson]

Also....?

And I mean this with all respect.......


....I would have appriciated not knowing the 'cause' of this.

As detached as I know I should feel, knowing it's her issues and not my own...... I'm feeling right now like I was stabbed in the gut with a knife made of ice.

I think if anyone else had the news of their wedding, and presumably pictures, up, and it it announced that these caused disgust and family dissent.... they'd understand. Obviously, this won't happen to hardly anyone else, but they can vouch for the..... sacredness and joy of those memories.

Well, I've had to run to the toilet retching a few times, is the thing.

I have a hard enough time, I get a lot of harassment on the streets and in stores.... it's been a tremendous amount, lately, for whatever reason. And..... I would have appreciated a little tact here.

Just FYI, if you're ever in a situation like this again..... perhaps asking for the input while being a little more general about the cause other than 'you and your beloved and your sacred union caused my mom disgust'.... would be wisest.

No hard feelings, don't think that there are.... I know you mean well. Hopefully, you can understand my POV here as well.


Yeah, well, there will always be people who hate you because of who you are. And I think everybody on this board can say the same. To that I say:

Wherever you go, you'll never know why somebody may hate you.
People as such don't mean as much as those who appreciate you.
--Death of Groo.

[Corrina]

Consider it a ray of hope, Maxine.

It has been bad and I cannot truly say I know how hard it is for you but here's a young man, only 16, from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful and he came to YABS and it's made him less disapproving and more interested in learning about how to get past this.

It is probably not easy to see but that's what hearing about your joy did for him--it lessened that disapproval and drove him to learn.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Yeah, well, there will always be people who hate you because of who you are. And I think everybody on this board can say the same. To that I say:

Wherever you go, you'll never know why somebody may hate you.
People as such don't mean as much as those who appreciate you.
--Death of Groo.

Well, I know why they do.

Often, they're pretty good at telling me. ^.~

Not sure that 'everyone' is in the same boat, but the sentiment is appreciated. :wink:

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Consider it a ray of hope, Maxine.

It has been bad and I cannot truly say I know how hard it is for you but here's a young man, only 16, from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful and he came to YABS and it's made him less disapproving and more interested in learning about how to get past this.

It is probably not easy to see but that's what hearing about your joy did for him--it lessened that disapproval and drove him to learn.

Honestly, Corrina, the only reason I posted that was in hopes that next time, perhaps he or someone else may generalize the cause of an issue, when the effect is what's germaine. For instance, 'My mom looked over my shoulder, and came to understand there are gay people on the board' would have been more neutral, and just as effective for talking about one's family issues, and one's personal journey of understanding.

I bear no ill will! Really!

And you're right.... it is a ray of hope.

[TCJohnson]

Not sure that 'everyone' is in the same boat, but the sentiment is appreciated. :wink:


Well, not in the same boat although in A boat. I've experienced bigotry although what I experienced would be a canoe to other's garbage barge, if that makes sense.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Well, not in the same boat although in A boat. I've experienced bigotry although what I experienced would be a canoe to other's garbage barge, if that makes sense.

Gotcha. No use in comparing. No worries. :biggrin:

[Sabrinaset]

Not sure that 'everyone' is in the same boat, but the sentiment is appreciated. :wink:


Here's the boat I'm on:

http://www.monacaron.com/~mona/images/large/titanic-sinking.jpg

[TCJohnson]

Here's the boat I'm on:

Yeah, but that is only because they let you at the helm. "Ooooooooooooooooh, something shiny over there!"

[DavidAllred]

Just FYI, if you're ever in a situation like this again..... perhaps asking for the input while being a little more general about the cause other than 'you and your beloved and your sacred union caused my mom disgust'.... would be wisest.

No hard feelings, don't think that there are.... I know you mean well. Hopefully, you can understand my POV here as well.

I think getting that out of your system is a good thing, really. I think being specific was a good thing for Fuzzy. It basically opened the door for you to share what you just did and it gives Fuzzy (maybe even his mom) an opportunity to see that these issues aren't just ideological, but they involve real people with real feelings. If he hadn't been specific, then maybe an opportunity to experience the specific emotions attached to his situation would have been missed.

I'm not going to say what you ought to feel and when you ought to feel it... but maybe there is a silver lining here someplace?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I think getting that out of your system is a good thing, really. I think being specific was a good thing for Fuzzy. It basically opened the door for you to share what you just did and it gives Fuzzy (maybe even his mom) an opportunity to see that these issues aren't just ideological, but they involve real people with real feelings. If he hadn't been specific, then maybe an opportunity to experience the specific emotions attached to his situation would have been missed.

I'm not going to say what you ought to feel and when you ought to feel it... but maybe there is a silver lining here someplace?

Yeah, you're right. TC's right. Corrina's right. Sabrina's...... funny.

There's a lot of good to be had here.

[Ben Morgan]

Though you can use the internet to purchase a copy of The Cay.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/The_Cay_cover.jpg
What does this have to do with Cayman?

[beetlebum]

Only thing i have to add is that I really respect Sgt. Fuzzy for his honesty. I mean that sincerely.

I feel the same way.

Consider it a ray of hope, Maxine.

It has been bad and I cannot truly say I know how hard it is for you but here's a young man, only 16, from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful and he came to YABS and it's made him less disapproving and more interested in learning about how to get past this.

It is probably not easy to see but that's what hearing about your joy did for him--it lessened that disapproval and drove him to learn.

I second this.

And Sgt. Fuzzy, I know where you're coming from. I used to have that type of attitude towards homosexuality. It took awhile, but I eventually became more open to, and fully embrace the concept of same sex love.

It helps of course, that I fancy girls (as I'm bi myself.)

I still, however, have not talked to my mum about my sexuality--as I'm still waiting for the right words to say (I don't think my mother is homophobic, I just don't think that she "gets" the concept of same sex love.)

Coming onto YABS did help, as I discovered a place where I was free to be myself. You have no idea how great it is to find like minded souls, and to feel liberated.

Fuzzy; I'll open up my pm box and allow you to be the 37th person to pm me if you have any questions.

And Max; I agree. It is good that you got that out of your system. After all of the crap you've been through in life; it's understandable that you would feel the way you do.

In the meanwhile, I say Godspeed with this, and life in general.

[Samurai]

Consider it a ray of hope, Maxine.

It has been bad and I cannot truly say I know how hard it is for you but here's a young man, only 16, from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful and he came to YABS and it's made him less disapproving and more interested in learning about how to get past this.

It is probably not easy to see but that's what hearing about your joy did for him--it lessened that disapproval and drove him to learn.

You just called the entire Singaporean culture "hateful"...

[CutterMike]

What does this have to do with Cayman?
There are Cay men on this forum...?

I am shocked... SHOCKED it tell you!

[Tommy]

Ultimately my belief is that all the progress homosexuals have made in the past fifty years (actually more but that's a dull history lesson) is due to being open and changing one person's opinion at a time. And I think anyone willing to "do their share" by choosing to educate themselves should be applauded.

[section 8]

You just called the entire Singaporean culture "hateful"...

Corrina was addressing the culture's attitude towards homosexuality in general.
Though i am sure there are exceptions, that isn't an entirely inaccurate statement.

[beetlebum]

Corrina was addressing the culture's attitude towards homosexuality in general.
Though i am sure there are exceptions, that isn't an entirely inaccurate statement.

Leave it up to Samurai to misconstrue someone else's statement.

It's why I no longer have any respect for him, and I choose to longer address him.

I guess I just don't fancy mine much when it comes to liars.

[sk716]

And this brings up what I got a phone call about this morning.

A little backstory: A month or so ago my 14 year old 3rd cousin moved from New Mexico to live with my brother and his three teenage sons. Without going into any detail, they had a lot of family problems and my teenage cousin, Tony, asked to come and live with my brother and nephews.

Tony has since integrated himself into the family and "extended" family. My best friend, Aaron, is a gay man. He and my mother are very close, he's the gay son she always wanted. As such he's also very close to my nephews and Tony now as well.

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

He went off on a tear at one point demanding to know what was so wrong with homosexuals being able to foster children, "What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"

Side note of the manners and style thing, when Tony arrived, he displayed zero in the way of table manners, etc., between my nephews and my friend, Tony is now acceptable in restaurants and his clothes are starting to match.

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.

He's 14 years old and his first exposure to any homosexuals has been Aaron, Aaron's roommate, Steph, and I, and he's really pissed about this great injustice he has discovered in society. I expect he'll convince Aaron to take him to lurk around the River Market so he can bother homophobes more regularly in the future.

[Crowley]

And this brings up what I got a phone call about this morning.

A little backstory: A month or so ago my 14 year old 3rd cousin moved from New Mexico to live with my brother and his three teenage sons. Without going into any detail, they had a lot of family problems and my teenage cousin, Tony, asked to come and live with my brother and nephews.

Tony has since integrated himself into the family and "extended" family. My best friend, Aaron, is a gay man. He and my mother are very close, he's the gay son she always wanted. As such he's also very close to my nephews and Tony now as well.

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

He went off on a tear at one point demanding to know what was so wrong with homosexuals being able to foster children, "What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"

Side note of the manners and style thing, when Tony arrived, he displayed zero in the way of table manners, etc., between my nephews and my friend, Tony is now acceptable in restaurants and his clothes are starting to match.

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.

He's 14 years old and his first exposure to any homosexuals has been Aaron, Aaron's roommate, Steph, and I, and he's really pissed about this great injustice he has discovered in society. I expect he'll convince Aaron to take him to lurk around the River Market so he can bother homophobes more regularly in the future.
There's a good kid... I hope you guys spoil him rotten.

[Corrina]

Yeah, you're right. TC's right. Corrina's right. Sabrina's...... funny.

There's a lot of good to be had here.

Well, I wasn't trying to be right, just offering a positive that could be found in the situation because I wanted you to feel better.

[Spike-X]

You just called the entire Singaporean culture "hateful"...
Nice try, Davros.

[Corrina]

Corrina was addressing the culture's attitude towards homosexuality in general.
Though i am sure there are exceptions, that isn't an entirely inaccurate statement.

Yes, the attitude toward homosexuality. I thought the context was clear but it's possible it wasn't.

It's also possible that Samurai was trying to have a dig at me for the stuff in Mega Political thread.

[Spike-X]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

Mate, at least you're trying to overcome this, which is more than most people ever do. Good on you for that.

Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people.

Why is that? Is she afraid it's contagious?

I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will.

What do you mean by 'advocate'?

From Dictionary.com:

–verb (used with object) 1.to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly: He advocated higher salaries for teachers.
It makes it sound like you'd be recommending that people become homosexual, thus implying it's a choice. Which it ain't. I'm not trying to pick on you here, just curious as to your word choice.

But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

How very loving and Christian of her.

[Spike-X]

Yes, the attitude toward homosexuality. I thought the context was clear but it's possible it wasn't.

It was perfectly clear. Just another pathetic attempt at "Look! They're the real bigots!"

And it's getting really old.

[Spike-X]

And this brings up what I got a phone call about this morning.

A little backstory: A month or so ago my 14 year old 3rd cousin moved from New Mexico to live with my brother and his three teenage sons. Without going into any detail, they had a lot of family problems and my teenage cousin, Tony, asked to come and live with my brother and nephews.

Tony has since integrated himself into the family and "extended" family. My best friend, Aaron, is a gay man. He and my mother are very close, he's the gay son she always wanted. As such he's also very close to my nephews and Tony now as well.

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

He went off on a tear at one point demanding to know what was so wrong with homosexuals being able to foster children, "What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"

Side note of the manners and style thing, when Tony arrived, he displayed zero in the way of table manners, etc., between my nephews and my friend, Tony is now acceptable in restaurants and his clothes are starting to match.

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.

He's 14 years old and his first exposure to any homosexuals has been Aaron, Aaron's roommate, Steph, and I, and he's really pissed about this great injustice he has discovered in society. I expect he'll convince Aaron to take him to lurk around the River Market so he can bother homophobes more regularly in the future.
That's awesome. Good on him.

[Sabrinaset]

Yes, the attitude toward homosexuality. I thought the context was clear but it's possible it wasn't.

It's also possible that Samurai was trying to have a dig at me for the stuff in Mega Political thread.

I suppose from a technical standpoint, you could have posted it as "from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful towards gays" just to make it airtight, but still ...

Sam ... you knew what she meant, and you're being obtuse.

[sk716]

There's a good kid... I hope you guys spoil him rotten.

Aaron and his roommate have already been working on that. My youngest nephew is in Hot Springs with me for the summer, and the older two have jobs so Tony is benefiting from being the only one home and getting doubly spoiled. The roommate bought him a weight set when he complained about being the scrawny one and wanted to buff up so he could play football.

I expect Tony will have just about every possession he could want by the time Jake gets home.

[Corrina]

Ah, no need to argue in this thread. Sgt. Fuzzy is trying to learn tolerance, he doesn't need us bringing in baggage from another thread.

And, if I didn't say it before, Sgt. Fuzzy, I think it is a good thing, what you're doing, to learn more and not accept hatred blindly.

[section 8]

"What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"



that should be on a T-shirt as well.

people like that clearly have no regard for the rights of homosexuals, or the welfare of the children in our already overwhelmed foster care system.
there are not enough foster parents, and the few homosexuals i do know would make great parents (not just foster)

[WhiteRose]

Ah Fuzzy, if you want questions answered then my PM box is always open. That goes the same for anyone else.

[bert]

hmm. . my rational, well mannered first post, (way back on the first page). . got completely glossed over.

oh well. . I still think if he posts the questions in the thread, he'll get different responses from many of the gay/lesbian/bi/trans folks on this forum, and that's the best way to go.

and Maxie. . I know it's hard, but as others have said, *HE* doesn't have that attitude towards, you, and Fuzzy knows you.

it's all about educating those who don't know us. . and that's what Fuzzy is asking for help with.

hugs.

[Matt Algren]

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.
http://www.zazzle.com/i_love_my_gay_dad_shirt-235619478661222276

[Charles RB]

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

Damn!

What a guy.

[beetlebum]

Yeah, but that is only because they let you at the helm. "Ooooooooooooooooh, something shiny over there!"

LMAO cos it's so true. :evilsmile: :biggrin:

*Hides from Ninja Kris*

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Well, I wasn't trying to be right, just offering a positive that could be found in the situation because I wanted you to feel better.

Thank you, Corrina. You managed both. :biggrin:

[Jack Zodiac]

The truth is, no one is the same person at 26 that they are at 16.

Honestly, most people aren't even the same at twenty as they were at sixteen.

And with the Internet, and instant global communication, lots of people are in for immediate culture shocks. In Singapore, Fuzz might not know a lot of openly gay people, but there are lots and lots of openly gay people here at YABS, and at CBR, and on the Internet in general. In my experience, the Internet is a predominantly Western, liberal "place." Certainly the free exchange of ideas allows for both sides of any argument to be heard, but I'm of the opinion that the Internet has a lot more voices on the left. And it's great to see somebody exposed to that and try to be accepting of it than becoming just another loud, dissenting voice.

You're a good man, Fuzz.

[Michael P]

The truth is, no one is the same person at 26 that they are at 16.

And as a man of 26, let me say "Thank God."

[BnL]

*Hugs Maxie* Your feelings are perfectly justified and understandable. And just so you know, your wedding photos were beautiful, and they definitely put a smile on my face. And I know I'm far from being the only one who is so happy for you, too. :smile:

Sgt. Fuzzy, add me to the list of folks who'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.

[Cam63]

There's a good kid... I hope you guys spoil him rotten.

Aye to that.

[Cam63]

It was perfectly clear. Just another pathetic attempt at "Look! They're the real bigots!"

And it's getting really old.

I don't think Sam's convinced too many.

[Charles RB]

I don't think Sam's convinced too many.

He's convinced me that we need to exterminate the Thals.

[Nick Soapdish]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.

I don't think that I have any special insights into this topic. I just wanted to applaud you for your open-mindedness in trying to learn more about the topic whether it changes your views or not (although I'm hoping for the former).

When I was your age, I was homophobic and uncomfortable around gays as well. And I can't really blame my family or faith or anything except maybe tangentially. We never really talked about it so I just didn't know about it and was uncomfortable. It took me a couple more years to realize that maybe I should learn more.

[Cam63]

He's convinced me that we need to exterminate the Thals.

Well, they had it comin'.

[TCJohnson]

He's convinced me that we need to exterminate the Thals.

Death to the blondes!

: eyes Bree :

[Sally Sensational]

I got major giggles from the Tony story when Shel told me earlier, too. I imagine he'll have the shirt he wants pretty soon - even if we have to make him one.

*Fuzzy, as someone who is both a member of the LGBT community and was brought up by very conservative parents who aren't exactly tolerant of "alternative" lifestyles, I applaud your attempts to educate yourself. Like just about everyone else here, I would be happy to answer any questions you want to direct to me. I'm also a high school teacher, so I'm used to answering unusual questions from teenagers! :smile:

Remember also, that you don't have to necessarily support what someone does to tolerate them, love them, or learn from them. To give a personal example, my brother and sister-in-law homeschool their children so that they are not "exposed to the evils of this world". I don't support their decision. But that doesn't mean I don't love them any less.

*Stamen, I want to go to YOUR church!

*To everyone concerned about Fuzzy's use of the word "advocate", please remember that we are dealing with a language transition here.

[Sabrinaset]

Didn't the last of the Thals die when Blue Beetle was killed?

[Sally Sensational]

He's convinced me that we need to exterminate the Thals.

What's a Thal?

asks the blonde.

[Charles RB]

What's a Thal?

asks the blonde.


These guys. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thal_%28Doctor_Who%29)

Basically a nod-back to Spike calling him Davros.

[Spike-X]

*To everyone concerned about Fuzzy's use of the word "advocate", please remember that we are dealing with a language transition here.

I think that was mostly me. And yeah, I took that into consideration. I hope it didn't come across like I was hammering him about it.

[TCJohnson]

What's a Thal?

asks the blonde.

An alien race in Doctor who. They were the sworn enemies of another race called the Daleks who major baddies on the show.

The Thals look basically human and they are all blonde.

[beetlebum]

Death to the blondes!

: eyes Bree :

Not all of them!

(Save Kristen Bell and Blake Lively for me....:evilsmile: )

But as for the rest; eh *waves hands*

:wink: :biggrin:

[Sally Sensational]

But as for the rest; eh *waves hands*

:wink: :biggrin:

Thanks, Beeb. I'll remember that when the blond revolution comes!

[beetlebum]

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/StephanieInsiensingmay/plottingsmiley.gif

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/smile/signs/signs_153.gif

[Dazzler]

When I was 16, I was infinitely more homophobic than anything Sgt. Fuzzy could hope to claim.

Now, not so much. :tongue:

It's amazing how time and perspective can change you. Give it a couple of years until you're fully able to look at the world through your own eyes instead of having your mother's filters constantly nearby and you may just find yourself looking back at your opinions now with a little bit of embarrassed nostalgia.

That's a good thing.

--Dazz

[Gilda Dent]

And this brings up what I got a phone call about this morning.

A little backstory: A month or so ago my 14 year old 3rd cousin moved from New Mexico to live with my brother and his three teenage sons. Without going into any detail, they had a lot of family problems and my teenage cousin, Tony, asked to come and live with my brother and nephews.

Tony has since integrated himself into the family and "extended" family. My best friend, Aaron, is a gay man. He and my mother are very close, he's the gay son she always wanted. As such he's also very close to my nephews and Tony now as well.

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

He went off on a tear at one point demanding to know what was so wrong with homosexuals being able to foster children, "What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"

Side note of the manners and style thing, when Tony arrived, he displayed zero in the way of table manners, etc., between my nephews and my friend, Tony is now acceptable in restaurants and his clothes are starting to match.

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.

He's 14 years old and his first exposure to any homosexuals has been Aaron, Aaron's roommate, Steph, and I, and he's really pissed about this great injustice he has discovered in society. I expect he'll convince Aaron to take him to lurk around the River Market so he can bother homophobes more regularly in the future.

I want to borrow Tony and introduce him to our DCF caseworker. And our homeowner's association.

My brother and sister have been well trained. If someone comments disapprovingly regarding Emily and me, they generally say something to the effect of, "So take it up with them." Molly even cheerfully invites them over so they can say the hateful things directly to us.

The reaction that Fuzzy's mom had is the reason I don't post pictures of myself and didn't post any of my wedding. I'm pretty sure the regulars here wouldn't say anything insulting, but the regulars aren't the only posters, and there are always a good number of lurkers.

Sgt. Fuzzy, I'm a gay, transsexual Christian (Unitarian, not Methodist, though) and if you have any questions, feel free to PM if you like. Given how politely you worded your OP, though, I think you'd be safe asking your questions in the thread itself. It's only those who ask loaded or leading questions meant to advance an anti-gay agenda that get a bad reaction.

[Sabrinaset]

Thanks, Beeb. I'll remember that when the blond revolution comes!

To arms! Quick, someone grab SunshineGirl, light the torches, grab the pitchforks, and attack BeetleBum!

[Sgt. Fuzzy]

Wow, I go to bed, log back on a few hours later and I get quite the amount of replies. o_O

Honestly, Maxine, I'm so sorry, I honestly didn't intend to make you feel that way. I wasn't thinking. I should've known better. You're definitely justified at feeling that way, and if you're angry at/disappointed in me, well, I really don't blame you.

... Gosh, I feel terrible.

Anyway, thanks for being so open to me, people. I guess I might be messaging most of you throughout the course of my stay here, which is probably until Mom decides to take more drastic action. Which, hopefully, won't happen at all.

[TCJohnson]

When I was 16, I was infinitely more homophobic than anything Sgt. Fuzzy could hope to claim.

Now, not so much. :tongue:

It's amazing how time and perspective can change you. Give it a couple of years until you're fully able to look at the world through your own eyes instead of having your mother's filters constantly nearby and you may just find yourself looking back at your opinions now with a little bit of embarrassed nostalgia.

That's a good thing.

--Dazz

When I was in high school, I used to use the word gay and fag as insults...usually funny insults with people I was just joking around with. Never really gave them much thought. Never really hated gay people, they were just different so you made fun of them. : shrugh :

In college I was working with this guy named Dana. I was talking about some girl and I said to him, "Like you wouldn't sleep with her if you had a chance." Dana just said to me, "Terry, I'm gay!" (turns out other than his boyfriend and some very close friends, that was the first time Dana told anybody he was gay.)

I thought about it...I liked Dana before he said that, and nothing about Dana had changed so I decided it didn't really matter to me. That was the end of any homophobia I had.

Edit: By the way, Dana also said one of the funniest things he ever saw was the look on my face when he told me he was gay. It was the end of my shift and I was just like, "Oh. I...I...I gotta go!"

The next shift he asked me if I had a problem with him being gay, and I said, "Nah, I was just really embarrassed what I said and that I was making assumptions."

[beetlebum]

To arms! Quick, someone grab SunshineGirl, light the torches, grab the pitchforks, and attack BeetleBum!

Attacked by an army of hot blondes?!

*Feigns fear* Oh yeah, that's erm, terrible.....

(Ignore the fact that TC launched the first volley...)

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/StephanieInsiensingmay/ATTAAACK_emote___by_meee_by_planetG.png

:evilsmile:

And Sgt., I'm sure that Maxine knows that you meant will. Still, good on you for apologising.

I also hope that your mother does not take any drastic measures, as we would hate to lose you.

Your presence here is valued.

And I should add I am an intricisist as well (Christian). I am non-denominational, though I do consider myself a member of the overall ecclesiastical body.

Feel free to pm me, as well. :smile:

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Wow, I go to bed, log back on a few hours later and I get quite the amount of replies. o_O

Honestly, Maxine, I'm so sorry, I honestly didn't intend to make you feel that way. I wasn't thinking. I should've known better. You're definitely justified at feeling that way, and if you're angry at/disappointed in me, well, I really don't blame you.

... Gosh, I feel terrible.

Anyway, thanks for being so open to me, people. I guess I might be messaging most of you throughout the course of my stay here, which is probably until Mom decides to take more drastic action. Which, hopefully, won't happen at all.

No, I'm not angry. I know you meant no harm. S'okay.

[MacQuarrie]

Fuzzy, if you want to, you can mention to your mom that I'm long-time member of this forum, a Christian, almost 50, a father of three (ages 12, 18, and 21), a Sunday School teacher, former youth group leader, elder in my church (Assemblies of God), and I think she really has nothing to worry about.

Yes, there are gay people here. But so what? The Bible tells us to love our neighbor, not to judge them. Jesus goes to a lot of trouble to hammer that point home with his stories about Samaritans (considered low-life gutter trash by the "good upstanding" Pharisees) and hanging out with boozers and hookers.

If it makes her feel better about it, tell her you consider YABS a mission field. You're here to help show the light of Christ and share the Gospel among people who otherwise would have very little positive contact with Christians. We are supposed to be "in the world but not of it"; we're not supposed to shut ourselves away from the world. How can they hear of the love of God if somebody doesn't tell them? In order to tell them, you have to talk to them, right?

If you or she wishes to discuss the topic privately feel, free to email me at jim@jimmacq.com or fire off a PM.

[Samurai]

Fuzzy, if you want to, you can mention to your mom that I'm long-time member of this forum, a Christian, almost 50, a father of three (ages 12, 18, and 21), a Sunday School teacher, former youth group leader, elder in my church (Assemblies of God), and I think she really has nothing to worry about.

Yes, there are gay people here. But so what? The Bible tells us to love our neighbor, not to judge them. Jesus goes to a lot of trouble to hammer that point home with his stories about Samaritans (considered low-life gutter trash by the "good upstanding" Pharisees) and hanging out with boozers and hookers.

If it makes her feel better about it, tell her you consider YABS a mission field. You're here to help show the light of Christ and share the Gospel among people who otherwise would have very little positive contact with Christians. We are supposed to be "in the world but not of it"; we're not supposed to shut ourselves away from the world. How can they hear of the love of God if somebody doesn't tell them? In order to tell them, you have to talk to them, right?

If you or she wishes to discuss the topic privately feel, free to email me at jim@jimmacq.com or fire off a PM.

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

[Sabrinaset]

Sam ... are you trying to piss everyone here off?

[beetlebum]

Good God. There are some people on this website whose actions are just the epitome of the word reprehensible.

Sod that one for a lark.

[section 8]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

well i'm sure it wouldn't be appreciated.
And rightfully so, how would you feel if the gay posters on this board tried to convert you?

[Samurai]

well i'm sure it wouldn't be appreciated.
And rightfully so, how would you feel if the gay posters on this board tried to convert you?

The Lesbians already have converted me... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

[Gilda Dent]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

Many of the gay folk around here are Christians and have already welcomed the words of Jesus into our lives.

[section 8]

The Lesbians already have converted me... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

LOL Me too, the operation is next week

[Samurai]

Sam ... are you trying to piss everyone here off?

Just pointing out that if Fuzzy tells his mom he's just posting here to try and convert people, he should be very careful about actually trying to do that.

His mom may ask "So, have any seen the light yet?"

"No mom, not yet..."

"Well, tell them this, this, and this..."

I mean, I want to make sure he understands that Mac is basically telling him to lie to his mom about what he's doing here, NOT suggesting that he actually try doing that as a way to stick around.

[Nick Soapdish]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

Interesting that Mac's post doesn't include your quotation. He's just suggesting that Fuzzy be a good Christian and set a good example. Getting in somebody's face or going door-to-door isn't the only way to spread the faith.

IMO, the best way is to simply let them see that Christians are usually good people and fun to be around. Let them come to you with questions.

ETA: That's not the best way. It's my preferred way and probably the most passive way, but the best way is probably something in the middle. Don't constantly talk about your faith, but be open about it and do bring it up yourself at times. Don't be doing it to convert, but to inform.

[Samurai]

Interesting that Mac's post doesn't include your quotation. He's just suggesting that Fuzzy be a good Christian and set a good example. Getting in somebody's face or going door-to-door isn't the only way to spread the faith.

IMO, the best way is to simply let them see that Christians are usually good people and fun to be around. Let them come to you with questions.

I wasn't quoting Mac, I put in the quote marks lest something think those are my own thoughts on the subject. It is done all the time.

Not religious myself, but doesn't being on a "mission" (that was Mac's word) constitute more than just hanging around with folks hoping they might ask you questions about faith? I've always understood a "mission" to be a more active form of proselytizing.

[Nick Soapdish]

I wasn't quoting Mac, I put in the quote marks lest something think those are my own thoughts on the subject. It is done all the time.

Not religious myself, but doesn't being on a "mission" (that was Mac's word) constitute more than just hanging around with folks hoping they might ask you questions about faith? I've always understood a "mission" to be a more active form of proselytizing.

Yeah, I just corrected that. But it doesn't have to be in-your-face and I hate that that has to even be said.

[CutterMike]

It fascinates me how people who often claim to be "misinterpreted" and "quoted out of context" can so completely twist a straightforward statement into a pretzel just to make a spurious point.

Gah!:mad:

[Spike-X]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...
Samurai, just for once, do you think you could maybe just give it a fucking rest?

[Nick Soapdish]

Can we take this part to another thread?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

The reaction that Fuzzy's mom had is the reason I don't post pictures of myself and didn't post any of my wedding. I'm pretty sure the regulars here wouldn't say anything insulting, but the regulars aren't the only posters, and there are always a good number of lurkers.

Well, it's not the wedding part that's vulnerable making for me.

It's the 'ugly day' feelings, when nothing looks right, and nothing CAN look right, and I'd just as soon not face the world. And it's the double scrutiny of a gaze upon us, looking for 'faults' or 'clues', that cultural fascination with dissecting how we look as if it finding fault would be a balm for the discomforts gender nonconformity stirs in most of us.

(It those who think that random verbal humiliations are a prelude to me putting out for them that I've been contending with most recently. THAT I don't understand one bit.)


Or announcing the faults found to all within earshot, as bane against the same nonconformity. Me, at my height alone, I'll probably always have to withstand that. It's the rooting out of the shame associated with it that is, for me, the work I need to do for myself. That, and finding joy in the person I am.

As someone who believes in reincarnation, I've come to understand that in this life, I'm to learn lessons about personal dignity and grace under pressure.

As you can see, I've got a long way to go. :P

At any rate, as people send more pictures of the wedding to me, I'll share 'em if people still wanna see.

[Gilda Dent]

Well, it's not the wedding part that's vulnerable making for me.

It's the 'ugly day' feelings, when nothing looks right, and nothing CAN look right, and I'd just as soon not face the world. And it's the double scrutiny of a gaze upon us, looking for 'faults' or 'clues', that cultural fascination with dissecting how we look as if it finding fault would be a balm for the discomforts gender nonconformity stirs in most of us.

Or announcing the faults found to all within earshot, as bane against the same nonconformity. Me, at my height alone, I'll probably always have to withstand that. It's the rooting out of the shame associated with it that is, for me, the work I need to do for myself. That, and finding joy in the person I am.

As someone who believes in reincarnation, I've come to understand that in this life, I'm to learn lessons about personal dignity and grace under pressure.

As you can see, I've got a long way to go. :P

At any rate, as people send more pictures to me, I'll share 'em if people still wanna see.

I can empathize with the "ugly day" thing. Just about any picture of me seems to bring out the flaws. The days I feel pretty are a rarity. I'm working on the whole balancing act of presenting my best self while not caring what others think, which has some seriously conflicting elements to it, emotionally at least. The "indifferent day", when I can manage it, is a good one.

Part of it is also that I'm stealth at work and most places other than with immediate family; out about my orientation but not so much the trans thing, and I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian. I don't want to take chances. Maybe in another two years when I have tenure.

You were lovely in your wedding pictures, by the way.

[Spike-X]

I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian.

It's disgraceful that, in the 21st century, you still need to worry about stuff like this.

[kitty_tc_69]

Samurai, just for once, do you think you could maybe just give it a fucking rest?

I'd suggest seppuku. :tongue:

[beetlebum]

Gilda, I can sympathise with the way you feel.

I don't use my real name online--as the sobriquets I've established for myself are a combination of my first name, and slightly abrogated spellings of a few of my relatives last names.

I also do not have any pictures of myself online, as I just don't feel comfortable posting them (yet.)

I've had members of my family stalked, and I just don't want the same thing to happen to me.

And Max; Gilda; that sucks that you've had to endure the harsh pejoratives that people have hurled your way. That's awful.

But I've seen pictures of you Max, and you're not ugly by any means. I've yet to see a picture of you Gilda, but I'm sure that what I've said about Max can be applied to you as well. :smile:

[Alex L]

I can empathize with the "ugly day" thing. Just about any picture of me seems to bring out the flaws. The days I feel pretty are a rarity. I'm working on the whole balancing act of presenting my best self while not caring what others think, which has some seriously conflicting elements to it, emotionally at least. The "indifferent day", when I can manage it, is a good one.

Part of it is also that I'm stealth at work and most places other than with immediate family; out about my orientation but not so much the trans thing, and I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian. I don't want to take chances. Maybe in another two years when I have tenure.

You were lovely in your wedding pictures, by the way.

That's terrible to hear, Gilda.

I really have nothing to contribute to this thread. I was born and raised in a very gay-friendly city, so I haven't seen the kinds of homophobia and discrimination many of you have seen throughout your lives.

It is interesting for me to hear about, though.

[MacQuarrie]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...
Depends on how you define "share the gospel".

I think a particularly effective way to do it is to try to be the most decent and compassionate person you can manage to be, and let people wonder what it is that makes you different, and then when they give you the opportunity to explain, do so in the most respectful, nonjudgmental way you can. In other words, the way the Jewish carpenter said to: by loving people, and by loving them, let the light of God shine through you so they can see it. I fail at this all the time, but it's what I've tried to do here every day for the last 13 years, and this is the very first time I've ever mentioned it so directly.

[MacQuarrie]

Just pointing out that if Fuzzy tells his mom he's just posting here to try and convert people, he should be very careful about actually trying to do that.

His mom may ask "So, have any seen the light yet?"

"No mom, not yet..."

"Well, tell them this, this, and this..."

I mean, I want to make sure he understands that Mac is basically telling him to lie to his mom about what he's doing here, NOT suggesting that he actually try doing that as a way to stick around.
1. I never said "try to convert." Most missionaries don't try to convert people. They try to minister to people, meet their needs, show them compassion, inform them about Christ and let them draw their own conclusions.

2. I most emphatically did not tell him to lie to his mom. I told him to get his mother to look at his presence here in a different way, and let her see his membership in this forum as a positive thing.

You might try approaching something (anything) in a non-confrontational way; you'll be surprised at the outcome. You may not know it, but there are in fact members of CBR who are Christians today because of conversations with people like me on these forums. At least one former Comm Forum participant received his first bible from me. There are many others here whose perceptions and attitudes about Christianity have been positively altered by interacting with the Christians here and discovering that we aren't all strident whackjobs bent on tallying up conversions or castigating people for sinning differently from us. Fuzzy could very easily engage in that same kind of conversational "relationship evangelism"... unless he falls into the trap of thinking that every conversation is a jousting match that has to have a winner.

[Samurai]

1. I never said "try to convert." Most missionaries don't try to convert people. They try to minister to people, meet their needs, show them compassion, inform them about Christ and let them draw their own conclusions.

2. I most emphatically did not tell him to lie to his mom. I told him to get his mother to look at his presence here in a different way, and let her see his membership in this forum as a positive thing.

You might try approaching something (anything) in a non-confrontational way; you'll be surprised at the outcome. You may not know it, but there are in fact members of CBR who are Christians today because of conversations with people like me on these forums. At least one former Comm Forum participant received his first bible from me. There are many others here whose perceptions and attitudes about Christianity have been positively altered by interacting with the Christians here and discovering that we aren't all strident whackjobs bent on tallying up conversions or castigating people for sinning differently from us. Fuzzy could very easily engage in that same kind of conversational "relationship evangelism"... unless he falls into the trap of thinking that every conversation is a jousting match that has to have a winner.
I've had plenty of non-confrontational conversations with Christians here. So often do I try to defend them from attacks by much more militant atheists and agnostics that I'm continually confused with being a Christian myself.

Easily the longest conversation I had on the subject was a long series of PMs with Theophilus in May of 2006. He asked me about my beliefs and world view as an agnostic, and I asked him his as a Christian. We had a great conversation, and I still have several of the PMs saved to this day.

I am actually a very calm, non-confrontational person in real life... it just seems like I'm confrontational here because people are constantly attacking me! People who approach me in a civil manner find a very different kind of Samurai than people who do nothing but attack and insult those they talk to.

However, let's be honest here. Most of the gay people here already belong to some religion, or they have no desire to. You don't want Fuzzy to stay so that he can share and spread his religious beliefs (the brand of Christianity he belongs to is the one that his mother raised him in, and is opposed to homosexuality), you want him to stay to become acclimated to gay people and to influence Fuzzy's beliefs away from what his parents have taught him. And Fuzzy seems open to that, though we (and Fuzzy) all know his mom wouldn't take kindly to that. You are advising him on how to fool his mom, because you know full well that, non-confrontational or not, his religious beliefs would NOT be popular around here, and the teaching would be pretty much 1 way, not an equal give and take.

Now, he may well have other things to contribute besides his religious beliefs. Maybe he collects comics, and could stress that this is a comic book forum to his mom. Or maybe he could talk about Singapore... it's food, culture, politics, current events, etc. I always enjoy hearing about the culture from other countries. But the brand of religion he belongs to will find no traction here, and if he tries, he will only be attacked for his efforts. I just want to warn him of that... if he belonged to a church that is open and welcoming of homosexuality, yeah, he might find a slightly more receptive audience here, once he breaks past initial prejudices. Otherwise, either avoid the topic of how your religion feels about homosexuality, or grow some very thick skin to deal with the backlash...

[Red Jack]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.

Well. The best way to get comfy with a group you're not sure of is to spend time with them. They usually turn out to be us after all.

I'm not sure this is a faith/not faith thing. I think it's a Parent's-leaning-on-kids-for-their-own-good thing. Obviously most here will disagree with your mom's outlook and, I think, on some level, you must also or you wouldn't be here feeling as you do.

If she's a bigot (and I'm pretty sure she is based on your description), you're stuck with that until you're old enough to get your own place and make your own arbitrary set of rules.

Your mom doesn't want you doing something on the 'net. Simple. You don't have to agree with it or even understand it but, while you are a child and living in her house, you have to suffer the weight of her decisions when they go against your own nature or interests. It's in the job description. you can try to skate around it but, if you get busted, it'll likely be worse than the original problem. My advice is always to play it- ahem- straight.

There are gay people in the world. Some of them are assholes and some of them are awesome, just like everybody else. Most are somewhere in between (also like most humans). It seems you see that and are inclined towards open-mindedness even if your own ethics (or whatever) lead you away from forming deep associations with "them." So, when you're out of your parents' house, feel free to associate freely.

Until then, you're kind of stuck, I'm afraid. Until you're on your own, parents can bring down the hammer in arbitrary ways and you have to eat it. But, of course, they only get to do that for a few years. Then you get to drive.

My feeling is, everyone is welcome here (though there are a few feuds) and everyone gets a say. Come as you please. Talk to whoever you want. learn. share your own views (understanding that they may spark something unintended) and, if your mom shuts it down, suck it up, bide your time and come back (if you want) when you're the boss.

it won't be long.

It's a big world and everybody- well, a lot of us in the West, anyway- gets to carve out their own piece.

Or Peace.

Depending.

[Charles RB]

I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian.

Jesus. That can't be legal, can it?

[BnL]

I am actually a very calm, non-confrontational person in real life... it just seems like I'm confrontational here because people are constantly attacking me! People who approach me in a civil manner find a very different kind of Samurai than people who do nothing but attack and insult those they talk to.

Bull. Most of the responses to the original post have been calm and welcoming of discussion. You, however, came into this thread with a confrontational mindset. This is not the thread for you to push your agenda.

[Spike-X]

What BnL said.

[bringthenoise]

Jesus. That can't be legal, can it?

Sadly, discrimination on the basis of sexuality is still legal in the majority of American states. Really, US employment law tends to suck on the whole. I mean, at-will employment - what the fuck?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Jesus. That can't be legal, can it?

Oh, yes it is. Not in every state, but in most 'I'm firing you because you're transgendered' would be something a boss could say legally, and without worrying about legal action.

I'm lucky. One of the last actions Grey Davis took before Arnold took over was to make it illegal to discriminate against me in this way in California. But before that, I could be and was fired because I'm transgendered. Well, okay; not fired, but forced into a significant demotion. At any rate we both know that laws don't always effect what REALLY goes down in the workplace.... I've been lucky with my last two jobs.)

That's what the fuss about the Employment Non-Discrimination Act that a.non and I link to in our signatures is about.

[Matt Algren]

Oh, yes it is.
On top of which, IIRC, Gilda wasn't 'fired' proper, they just didn't renew her contract.

[Cam63]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

Do fuck off.

[Charles RB]

Oh, yes it is. Not in every state, but in most 'I'm firing you because you're transgendered' would be something a boss could say legally, and without worrying about legal action.

Fucking hell. How do they justify keeping that around?

[bringthenoise]

Fucking hell. How do they justify keeping that around?

A combination of subtle and not-so-subtle bigotry and screaming about free markets and how corporations should be allowed to do anything they want or else THE COMMUNISTS/TERRORISTS HAVE WON.

[Charles RB]

Do state rights get brought up as well?

[beetlebum]

A combination of subtle and not-so-subtle bigotry and screaming about free markets and how corporations should be allowed to do anything they want or else THE COMMUNISTS/TERRORISTS HAVE WON.

It's a combination of that, and the "claim" of States rights. (Though keep in mind that States rights are not always a bad thing--as the whole gay marriage affair in my State of California is a positive example of States rights.)

[bringthenoise]

Do state rights get brought up as well?

Beetlebum is psychic! Argh!

[Dreadstar]

While I believe Sgt. Fuzzy's mom is both incorrect and over-controlling of the situation, if I he's a minor and she makes the internet rules, then I'm afraid that's pretty much the final word in that house.

I *would* however consider MacQ's sage advice and offer to mediate.

Or he could just go behind her back and disrespect her wishes like the vast majority of kids in the U.S. today.

[Charles RB]

Or he could just go behind her back

That'd be my option.

[Typo Lad]

Part of it is also that I'm stealth at work and most places other than with immediate family; out about my orientation but not so much the trans thing, and I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian. I don't want to take chances. Maybe in another two years when I have tenure.

Your last job went away not because you were too open, but because your employer was too closed-minded. The onus is on him. There is simply no reason you should not be able to have your spouse's photo on your desk, regardless of gender.

[MacQuarrie]

I've had plenty of non-confrontational conversations with Christians here. So often do I try to defend them from attacks by much more militant atheists and agnostics that I'm continually confused with being a Christian myself.

Easily the longest conversation I had on the subject was a long series of PMs with Theophilus in May of 2006. He asked me about my beliefs and world view as an agnostic, and I asked him his as a Christian. We had a great conversation, and I still have several of the PMs saved to this day.

I am actually a very calm, non-confrontational person in real life... it just seems like I'm confrontational here because people are constantly attacking me! People who approach me in a civil manner find a very different kind of Samurai than people who do nothing but attack and insult those they talk to.
One of the things I tell my kids is, "if everyone has a problem with you, maybe the problem is you, or the way you're dealing with people."

However, let's be honest here. Most of the gay people here already belong to some religion, or they have no desire to. You don't want Fuzzy to stay so that he can share and spread his religious beliefs (the brand of Christianity he belongs to is the one that his mother raised him in, and is opposed to homosexuality), you want him to stay to become acclimated to gay people and to influence Fuzzy's beliefs away from what his parents have taught him. And Fuzzy seems open to that, though we (and Fuzzy) all know his mom wouldn't take kindly to that. You are advising him on how to fool his mom, because you know full well that, non-confrontational or not, his religious beliefs would NOT be popular around here, and the teaching would be pretty much 1 way, not an equal give and take.
I don't want anything of the sort. I want him to stay because he is a contributing member of the forum and seems like an okay guy. His beliefs about gay people are entirely his concern, and I have no agenda one way or the other about homosexuality. As C. S. Lewis said, I will not criticize people for being wounded in battles I have not fought. I'm not gay, it's not my issue, and my orders from God are to love people, period, regardless of what they get up to when I'm not around.

Now, he may well have other things to contribute besides his religious beliefs. Maybe he collects comics, and could stress that this is a comic book forum to his mom. Or maybe he could talk about Singapore... it's food, culture, politics, current events, etc. I always enjoy hearing about the culture from other countries. But the brand of religion he belongs to will find no traction here, and if he tries, he will only be attacked for his efforts. I just want to warn him of that...
Again, that depends entirely upon the nature and quality of his "efforts". The point is, it's possible, and indeed desirable, for his mom to see that he's not coming here to defy her and be corrupted by this place and its people, but that this place gives him an opportunity to live out his Christian faith in "the real world", and an opportunity to test and thereby strengthen his beliefs. If his faith can't stand up to opposition and scrutiny, it isn't a faith worth having, in my seldom-humble opinion.

if he belonged to a church that is open and welcoming of homosexuality, yeah, he might find a slightly more receptive audience here, once he breaks past initial prejudices. Otherwise, either avoid the topic of how your religion feels about homosexuality, or grow some very thick skin to deal with the backlash...
Of he could just behave like a decent upstanding guy, the way a Christian would, and interact with people honestly and with respect, and make some friends. He might end up being somebody's only Christian friend, and may change that person's perception of Christianity or religion in general, and that person may go on to impact somebody else's life in some way. We don't know. We can't see the future, but we don't need to fear it.

By the way, my son isn't much older than Fuzzy. We've had similar conversations about his activity on the forums that interest him. I'm not talking out may ass here. I am a concerned and responsible parent myself, and I posted what I did to give Fuzzy some options to reassure his mom that this place is no threat to his faith.

[Dreadstar]

That'd be my option.

Different strokes. If my kid did and I found out, he'd be off the PC for a looooong looooong time. You play parental rebellion game you takes your chances. So go for it, I guess. No worse than me sneaking my dad's Playboy stash when I was his age. But I never had any illusions of the repercussions of being caught.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Your last job went away not because you were too open, but because your employer was too closed-minded. The onus is on him. There is simply no reason you should not be able to have your spouse's photo on your desk, regardless of gender.

What he said (and Corrina earlier, about the Sarge not just blindly giving in to hate).

And Shel's story was pretty cool, too.

[MacQuarrie]

Different strokes. If my kid did and I found out, he'd be off the PC for a looooong looooong time. You play parental rebellion game you takes your chances. So go for it, I guess. No worse than me sneaking my dad's Playboy stash when I was his age. But I never had any illusions of the repercussions of being caught.

That's the other thing I always tell my kids: "You must not only want what you want; you must also want everything that comes with it."

[Charles RB]

Different strokes. If my kid did and I found out, he'd be off the PC for a looooong looooong time.

True enough. You'd have to be sneaky, and that teaches a valuable lesson. Possibly.

[Corrina]

That's the other thing I always tell my kids: "You must not only want what you want; you must also want everything that comes with it."

When you choose an action, you also choose the consequences of that action.

Good advice, Mac.

[Sally Sensational]

I'm going to second what Mac has said about sometimes just being caring and compassionate is enough to be considered "witnessing" to a group of people. You don't have to openly proselytize to share your religious viewpoints.

Example: when I was in college, I hung with the freaks, geeks, and weirdos (that's what we called ourselves, it was not, to us, an insult). Most of them were not Christians, and some were, due to bad experiences, virulently anti-Christian. This was due in part to the practice of one of the Christian groups on campus randomly choosing anyone who looked different (smokers were particularly vulnerable to this tactic), walking up to them and informing them that they were going to hell. Needless to say, this did not leave my friends very apt to enjoy the company of Christians.

Long story short, my friends knew that I was a Christian. They would come to me with questions and I would answer them as best I could. They were willing to listen because my approach was simply to be a good friend, to love them, listen to them, and NOT get confrontational. It's not only possible, it works.

[Red Jack]

Different strokes. If my kid did and I found out, he'd be off the PC for a looooong looooong time. You play parental rebellion game you takes your chances. So go for it, I guess. No worse than me sneaking my dad's Playboy stash when I was his age. But I never had any illusions of the repercussions of being caught.

QFT.

.........

[beetlebum]

I'm going to second what Mac has said about sometimes just being caring and compassionate is enough to be considered "witnessing" to a group of people. You don't have to openly proselytize to share your religious viewpoints.

Example: when I was in college, I hung with the freaks, geeks, and weirdos (that's what we called ourselves, it was not, to us, an insult). Most of them were not Christians, and some were, due to bad experiences, virulently anti-Christian. This was due in part to the practice of one of the Christian groups on campus randomly choosing anyone who looked different (smokers were particularly vulnerable to this tactic), walking up to them and informing them that they were going to hell. Needless to say, this did not leave my friends very apt to enjoy the company of Christians.

Long story short, my friends knew that I was a Christian. They would come to me with questions and I would answer them as best I could. They were willing to listen because my approach was simply to be a good friend, to love them, listen to them, and NOT get confrontational. It's not only possible, it works.

Well said, Sally.

"Witnessing" to someone can take on many different forms. I prefer the method you mentioned in your post.

It's less confrontational, and it's less likely to push people away.

And that--in my opinion--is the best way to go about things.

[Matt Algren]

Well said, Sally.

"Witnessing" to someone can take on many different forms. I prefer the method you mentioned in your post.

It's less confrontational, and it's less likely to push people away.

And that--in my opinion--is the best way to go about things.
Wait, so there's more than tracts?!? But those have my script all written out!

[TCJohnson]

Example: when I was in college, I hung with the freaks, geeks, and weirdos

Haven't moved up much in the world, have you?

[Sally Sensational]

Haven't moved up much in the world, have you?

I don't recall pissing in your cheerios this morning, Johnson. :tongue:

[sk716]

Haven't moved up much in the world, have you?

Funny. :biggrin:

And Samurai, if you continue to be an ass outside of the un-moderated threads, I'm going to stop ignoring it and react accordingly.

[Samurai]

Funny. :biggrin:

And Samurai, if you continue to be an ass outside of the un-moderated threads, I'm going to stop ignoring it and react accordingly.

I was not "an ass" in any way, shape, or form.

[sk716]

You just called the entire Singaporean culture "hateful"...

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

The Lesbians already have converted me... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

I was not "an ass" in any way, shape, or form.

I disagree and it's not up for discussion.

[Crowley]

I was not "an ass" in any way, shape, or form.

You know Fuzzy has both a culture and a religion as a reason for the potential bigotry surrounding him... what's your excuse again?

[Samurai]

You know Fuzzy has both a culture and a religion as a reason for the potential bigotry surrounding him... what's your excuse again?

And again someone calls his culture and religion (potentially) "bigoted". And I'm the ass?

Maybe the first step to teaching him about other cultures would be to stop being so judgmental and critical of his own culture? Tell him about other countries and cultures without automatically proclaiming it "better" or "less bigoted". He's a smart guy, let him make up his own mind, and if he happens to appreciate some parts of his own culture and religion, there's nothing wrong with that. He's not attacking people here, so relax on the cultural judgments.

[Charles RB]

And again someone calls his culture and religion (potentially) "bigoted".

They didn't the first time, and I really doubt Crowley is doing so. I can see where it might be possible to misread what he's saying here. That's not true for Corrina though, there you'd have to be deliberately trying to distort things or misread.

[Samurai]

They didn't the first time, and I really doubt Crowley is doing so. I can see where it might be possible to misread what he's saying here. That's not true for Corrina though, there you'd have to be deliberately trying to distort things or misread.

And just how would you parse Crowley's statement concerning Fuzzy's culture and religion?

Whatever, the point of the post remains... stop criticizing his culture and instead teach him about others using a minimum of judgment and condemnation.

[Spike-X]

*hugs the Ignore List*

I just can't believe it took me this long.

[Sabrinaset]

Guys, if sk says the issue is not up for discussion, then there really shouldn't be any more discussion about it, kay?

[MacQuarrie]

And again someone calls his culture and religion (potentially) "bigoted". And I'm the ass?

Maybe the first step to teaching him about other cultures would be to stop being so judgmental and critical of his own culture? Tell him about other countries and cultures without automatically proclaiming it "better" or "less bigoted". He's a smart guy, let him make up his own mind, and if he happens to appreciate some parts of his own culture and religion, there's nothing wrong with that. He's not attacking people here, so relax on the cultural judgments.

I thought that one of the key beliefs of conservatism is that all cultures are not equally wonderful, that there are in fact objective ideals and morals, and that some cultures do better than others at exemplifying various of them. If a culture practices routine discrimination and oppression (as South Africa once did, as the United States has, as India's caste system does), is it wrong to label that culture bigoted?

You can't have it both ways. Either you believe in the conservative view that there are cultural values that are objectively worthy of promoting and others that are not, or you believe in the liberal view that all cultures have to be equally valid regardless of the particulars of their values. In which case, either you are being deliberately disingenuous in order to "score a point" in your ongoing debate/jousting match. or you don't really hold to conservative ideals.

In either case, it's not helpful to Fuzzy or anyone else.

Maybe you could try conversing instead of debating. It's possible to disagree with someone without having to strive to vanquish their position. It's not a contest. There's no prize for winning the conversation. In fact, conversations don't need to have winners. In fact, they don't even need to have sides. We could just talk, without having to constantly try to prove the other person wrong or catch them in a contradiction or whatever ridiculous challenge you've set for yourself. Unclench and try to enjoy the people here who share many of your interests, and whom you might find to be quite nice people, if you'd stop trying to defeat them all the time.

Or keep doing what you're doing until somebody gets tired of it and you find yourself joining KCSuberman, ChuckG and all the rest of the strident Conservative Crusaders in Banville.

[Nick Soapdish]

You can't have it both ways. Either you believe in the conservative view that there are cultural values that are objectively worthy of promoting and others that are not, or you believe in the liberal view that all cultures have to be equally valid regardless of the particulars of their values. In which case, either you are being deliberately disingenuous in order to "score a point" in your ongoing debate/jousting match. or you don't really hold to conservative ideals.

I don't think that's a liberal view.

I think that the liberal view is that we should try to appreciate the values of other cultures by giving them a fair look and look at the good and bad of all cultures.

But not all things are created equal. (Is that what you mean by valid?)

For instance, I don't think that the cultural values of the Toltecs are equally good as ours.

Then again, I may not be a very good liberal.

[Samurai]

I thought that one of the key beliefs of conservatism is that all cultures are not equally wonderful, that there are in fact objective ideals and morals, and that some cultures do better than others at exemplifying various of them. If a culture practices routine discrimination and oppression (as South Africa once did, as the United States has, as India's caste system does), is it wrong to label that culture bigoted?

You can't have it both ways. Either you believe in the conservative view that there are cultural values that are objectively worthy of promoting and others that are not, or you believe in the liberal view that all cultures have to be equally valid regardless of the particulars of their values. In which case, either you are being deliberately disingenuous in order to "score a point" in your ongoing debate/jousting match. or you don't really hold to conservative ideals.

In either case, it's not helpful to Fuzzy or anyone else.

Maybe you could try conversing instead of debating. It's possible to disagree with someone without having to strive to vanquish their position. It's not a contest. There's no prize for winning the conversation. In fact, conversations don't need to have winners. In fact, they don't even need to have sides. We could just talk, without having to constantly try to prove the other person wrong or catch them in a contradiction or whatever ridiculous challenge you've set for yourself. Unclench and try to enjoy the people here who share many of your interests, and whom you might find to be quite nice people, if you'd stop trying to defeat them all the time.

Or keep doing what you're doing until somebody gets tired of it and you find yourself joining KCSuberman, ChuckG and all the rest of the strident Conservative Crusaders in Banville.

I'm trying to tell him to treat other posters with a bit of courtesy and not be openly insulting to their culture and religion. Yes, I'm a conservative and not a cultural relativist. I do believe that certain cultures have what I consider to be a better way of handling certain things. I've often stated that in the past. However, we're talking about a 16 year old guy, a fellow poster, and whether or not to directly attack his culture and religion in front of him (and to him), vs a more abstract discussion of, for instance, female circumcision in certain cultures being a terrible thing. I have far less problem with the latter (even if during the conversation it is called a barbaric cultural practice) than the former. Having lived overseas, I know a thing or 2 about how to talk directly with people from another culture, and even if you are thinking "Man, that's a stupid thing", it's much better not to say this directly to the person, but to instead talk about your own culture and other foreign cultures, teach about them, rather than put the other person on the defensive.

It all ties back to what you were saying earlier about not coming right out and proselytizing. Attacking the other culture to a person's face is proselytizing in the most strident manner. Discussing things with them in a less judgemental way may help them to see another way. Back among your own group, you might say "Man, that is a crazy thing they do!", but you need to have a bit of class when talking to people or else they immediately go defensive (which is understandable).

[Samurai]

I don't think that's a liberal view.

I think that the liberal view is that we should try to appreciate the values of other cultures by giving them a fair look and look at the good and bad of all cultures.

But not all things are created equal. (Is that what you mean by valid?)

For instance, I don't think that the cultural values of the Toltecs are equally good as ours.

Then again, I may not be a very good liberal.

He means it's the cultural relativists' view, many of whom are liberals, but it's not a perfect match.

[Nick Soapdish]

1. I never said "try to convert." Most missionaries don't try to convert people. They try to minister to people, meet their needs, show them compassion, inform them about Christ and let them draw their own conclusions.


That's what I was kinda trying to get at.

Unfortunately, the style of proselytizing that people seem to assume is missionary work is more along the lines of the Jack Chick tracts.

[Crowley]

And again someone calls his culture and religion (potentially) "bigoted". And I'm the ass?

Maybe the first step to teaching him about other cultures would be to stop being so judgmental and critical of his own culture? Tell him about other countries and cultures without automatically proclaiming it "better" or "less bigoted". He's a smart guy, let him make up his own mind, and if he happens to appreciate some parts of his own culture and religion, there's nothing wrong with that. He's not attacking people here, so relax on the cultural judgments.
never said it was bigoted. I said the cultural and religious mindsets could contribute to potential bigotry... potential is the key word in the sentence as I don't believe that everyone in Singapore is bigoted.

then I asked "why are you bigoted against homosexuals?" A question which you dodged, in order to play twisty turny liar games that once again you've been caught doing for the 1,298,998,934,546 jillionth time.

[Solaris]

I'm trying to tell him to treat other posters with a bit of courtesy and not be openly insulting to their culture and religion. Yes, I'm a conservative and not a cultural relativist. I do believe that certain cultures have what I consider to be a better way of handling certain things. I've often stated that in the past. However, we're talking about a 16 year old guy, a fellow poster, and whether or not to directly attack his culture and religion in front of him (and to him), vs a more abstract discussion of, for instance, female circumcision in certain cultures being a terrible thing. I have far less problem with the latter (even if during the conversation it is called a barbaric cultural practice) than the former. Having lived overseas, I know a thing or 2 about how to talk directly with people from another culture, and even if you are thinking "Man, that's a stupid thing", it's much better not to say this directly to the person, but to instead talk about your own culture and other foreign cultures, teach about them, rather than put the other person on the defensive.

It all ties back to what you were saying earlier about not coming right out and proselytizing. Attacking the other culture to a person's face is proselytizing in the most strident manner. Discussing things with them in a less judgemental way may help them to see another way. Back among your own group, you might say "Man, that is a crazy thing they do!", but you need to have a bit of class when talking to people or else they immediately go defensive (which is understandable).


Sam, remember Apartheid? At that time, if someone on the forum said something to a young black South African (or white, for that matter) that his culture was racist, would you say that people were "attacking his culture in front of him"? Do you think it would somehow offend him to learn that people outside his own country saw his culture as racist?

And, aren't you ignoring the fact that perhaps Fuzzy himself sees his culture in a similar fashion to what's been stated?

The capacity to be critical of one's own culture and country is not limited to Western countries, to English-speaking countries, to First World Countries, or to the good ol' USA... and presuming that he would find said criticism offensive (and by extension, that he couldn't *possibly* agree with the criticism), is a backwards form of patronization, IMO. (And if you need further proof, talk to some of the students from the Beijing protests.)

The simple fact is, the laws and culture of his country have created this impression in outsiders. Whether he agrees or disagrees with the impression is up to him, and he's free to discuss, defend, dispute, or ignore said impression as he sees fit. It never hurts to learn how people from other countries see your own.

What you do with it at that point is up to you.

We're supposed to be Sharing the Freedom, Sam---NOT reinforcing the erroneous idea that "Only in America can people speak freely about where they live and criticize the culture they're in---so in those 'backward' countries we'll just assume that everyone thinks and feels the same way, that they've been brainwashed to do so."

Freedom isn't about limiting ideas and discussion---it's about *encouraging* both. Given how Fuzzy started this thread, I think he's one up on you in this department.

(PS---some of the greatest thinkers, philosophers, and defenders of freedom of all time were *not* American---and many were Asian.)

[Red Jack]

Christianity, any faith, exists in the real world. it must contend with all the alternate world views and the physics of reality.

When someone, in this case someone's mother, expresses an irrational dislike or fear of people that are demonstrably no different from themselves in any meaningful way, that someone is a bigot. If Sarge is going to make his ethical/intellectual way in the world (and we presume he is), he's going to have to grapple with these things for himself without mommy's intervention.

YABS is an essentially benign environment where he can interact with people that some would have him think are unclean or damned or whatever. Sinners. THey are, of course, none of those things. Or, if they are, there's no way to know it from the conversations we have here.

There's no guarantee that Sarge will emerge from this contact with a more open mind than the one he describes his mother having but, based upon his openness about his misgivings and his desire to understand for himself, I'm going to guess he's way out in front of his intellectual pack. There is hope, IOW.

Calling a person who exhibits the behaviors and opinions he describes his mother having a bigot is not insulting. It's a description. "Bigot" is only an insult if you're not one.

I for one only respect the religious/cultural beliefs of others right up to the point where they're calling me unclean, soulless, or some other, more guttural insight.

At that point, they take what they get. Even once removed.

[the4thpip]

Sam, remember Apartheid? At that time, if someone on the forum said something to a young black South African (or white, for that matter) that his culture was racist, would you say that people were "attacking his culture in front of him"? Do you think it would somehow offend him to learn that people outside his own country saw his culture as racist?

And, aren't you ignoring the fact that perhaps Fuzzy himself sees his culture in a similar fashion to what's been stated?

The capacity to be critical of one's own culture and country is not limited to Western countries, to English-speaking countries, to First World Countries, or to the good ol' USA... and presuming that he would find said criticism offensive (and by extension, that he couldn't *possibly* agree with the criticism), is a backwards form of patronization, IMO. (And if you need further proof, talk to some of the students from the Beijing protests.)

The simple fact is, the laws and culture of his country have created this impression in outsiders. Whether he agrees or disagrees with the impression is up to him, and he's free to discuss, defend, dispute, or ignore said impression as he sees fit. It never hurts to learn how people from other countries see your own.

What you do with it at that point is up to you.

We're supposed to be Sharing the Freedom, Sam---NOT reinforcing the erroneous idea that "Only in America can people speak freely about where they live and criticize the culture they're in---so in those 'backward' countries we'll just assume that everyone thinks and feels the same way, that they've been brainwashed to do so."

Freedom isn't about limiting ideas and discussion---it's about *encouraging* both. Given how Fuzzy started this thread, I think he's one up on you in this department.

(PS---some of the greatest thinkers, philosophers, and defenders of freedom of all time were *not* American---and many were Asian.)

There really is no point in arguing with Sam. He is on a crusade to reveal liberals as the real bigots because they don't tolerate intolerance.

[Kevin Vetter]

I think it's more their "if you disagree with me on what the best ice cream flavor is then you're a racist, homophobic neo con and every thought in your head is wrong" shtick that makes them the real bigots and not the "not tolerating intolerance" they like to use as an excuse for their bigoted ways. But I disagree with you guys on most things so nothing I say actually matters no matter how much truth might be behind it. It's amazing how that works with all of you guys slapping yourselves on the back all the time for being so progressive and tolerant of everything as long as whats said goes along with what you want to believe is right. All you guys and samurai are exactly the same. Just different sides of the coin.

[Spike-X]

I disagree with you guys on most things so nothing I say actually matters no matter how much truth might be behind it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v235/Spike-X/tissues.jpg

[bringthenoise]

I think it's more their "if you disagree with me on what the best ice cream flavor is then you're a racist, homophobic neo con and every thought in your head is wrong" shtick that makes them the real bigots and not the "not tolerating intolerance" they like to use as an excuse for their bigoted ways. But I disagree with you guys on most things so nothing I say actually matters no matter how much truth might be behind it. It's amazing how that works with all of you guys slapping yourselves on the back all the time for being so progressive and tolerant of everything as long as whats said goes along with what you want to believe is right. All you guys and samurai are exactly the same. Just different sides of the coin.

The old "hating bigots is bigotry" bullshit. Well, it's bullshit.

My work here is done.

[BnL]

This could have been a very interesting and productive thread if it didn't get hijacked by Samurai, just so he could carry out his petty vendettas and peddle his anti-liberal bullshit.

Sgt. Fuzzy, I hope you were able to at least get some interesting conversations over PM out of it.

[Kevin Vetter]

It's not hating bigotry is bigotry at all. There is a massive double standard here. If I went and attacked someone for being gay then I would feel the full might of the hypocrite brigade that is stationed here. I would never hear the end of it and would get called names until either I left or they did. Now if one of them went and attacked christianity then there would be nothing wrong with that. Anyone that came to it's aid would be attacked and called names just as someone did that attacked someone for being gay. If there is a discussion going on and someone calls someone else a liberal then all of a sudden some commandment has been broken and nothing that you say beyond that is valid because you resorted to childish name calling even though it's not even close to being that. On the other hand you can throw around racist and fascist and neocon 5000 times and there is nothing wrong with that because it isn't name calling if it's true and they said it so it has to be true. If they were ever wrong then the universe would implode.

There are quite a few people here that are just like those idiots that fox news likes to show to try and convince everyone that anyone to the left of them is just completely insane and immoral. The vast majority of people here that attack samurai for the dumb shit that he says are exactly the same as he is. You guys are bizarro versions of each other. They will all say whatever they need to to try and convince everyone that their ideas about something are the only one that is acceptable. Crowley made judgements of entire swaths of people and there was no problem with that. If samurai had done the same thing well then it's on, let the battle begin. Wait, that actually did happen right here in this thread. He repeated the judgment laid down by crowley and all of a sudden samurai is the racist and crowley is the hero. How the hell did that happen? There really should be a nobel prize for best bullshitter. The deck would be stacked with people from here every year.

Anyone that says anything to contradict me is a nazi. There, beat you to it, I win.

[Spike-X]

Do you think you could wipe the froth off your mouth, calm down a little, and show us where exactly on this thread anyone attacked Christianity?

And if it didn't happen on this thread, find one it did happen on and take it up there, rather than trying to hijack this one like Samurai did.

[the4thpip]

So, does anybody know any good fish recipes?

[Spike-X]

No, I've never got the hang of cooking fish, I'm afraid.

[Charles RB]

You should cook the fish, then remove all the meat and use it in a soup, that stuff's lovely.

[Typo Lad]

People have attacked Christianity on CBR, and have been thoroughly beaten about the head for it.

I hope you can get that chip on your shoulder treated.

[Crowley]

It's not hating bigotry is bigotry at all. There is a massive double standard here. If I went and attacked someone for being gay then I would feel the full might of the hypocrite brigade that is stationed here. I would never hear the end of it and would get called names until either I left or they did. Now if one of them went and attacked christianity then there would be nothing wrong with that. Anyone that came to it's aid would be attacked and called names just as someone did that attacked someone for being gay. If there is a discussion going on and someone calls someone else a liberal then all of a sudden some commandment has been broken and nothing that you say beyond that is valid because you resorted to childish name calling even though it's not even close to being that. On the other hand you can throw around racist and fascist and neocon 5000 times and there is nothing wrong with that because it isn't name calling if it's true and they said it so it has to be true. If they were ever wrong then the universe would implode.

There are quite a few people here that are just like those idiots that fox news likes to show to try and convince everyone that anyone to the left of them is just completely insane and immoral. The vast majority of people here that attack samurai for the dumb shit that he says are exactly the same as he is. You guys are bizarro versions of each other. They will all say whatever they need to to try and convince everyone that their ideas about something are the only one that is acceptable. Crowley made judgements of entire swaths of people and there was no problem with that. If samurai had done the same thing well then it's on, let the battle begin. Wait, that actually did happen right here in this thread. He repeated the judgment laid down by crowley and all of a sudden samurai is the racist and crowley is the hero. How the hell did that happen? There really should be a nobel prize for best bullshitter. The deck would be stacked with people from here every year.

Anyone that says anything to contradict me is a nazi. There, beat you to it, I win.
Again: "Never said it was bigoted. I said the cultural and religious mindsets could contribute to potential bigotry... potential is the key word in the sentence as I don't believe that everyone in Singapore is bigoted."

Now you may not like the statement by myself and Corrina that a percentage of the population of Singapore is bigoted... but that doesn't make those statements false. We had a pride parade in Chicago the same weekend at WWC... how was the Singapore pride parade?

A quick google finds this:

Section 377A of the Penal Code of Singapore is the main remaining piece of legislation which criminalises sex between mutually consenting adult men.

Section 377A ("Outrages on decency") states that:
Any male person who, in public or private, commits, or abets the commission of, or procures or attempts to procure the commission by any male person of, any act of gross indecency with another male person, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_377A_of_the_Penal_Code_(Singapore)

In fact this law was only repealed in 2007... so the evidence pretty much backs up mine and Corrina's statements.

And please, anyone who's read Samurai's many statements regarding Muslims and homosexuals knows where he falls on the side of the bigotry fence.

And Neocon isn't an insult, it merely refers to the form of modern conservatism that arose in the 80's.

[Matt Algren]

I think it's more their "if you disagree with me on what the best ice cream flavor is then you're a racist, homophobic neo con and every thought in your head is wrong" shtick that makes them the real bigots and not the "not tolerating intolerance" they like to use as an excuse for their bigoted ways. But I disagree with you guys on most things so nothing I say actually matters no matter how much truth might be behind it. It's amazing how that works with all of you guys slapping yourselves on the back all the time for being so progressive and tolerant of everything as long as whats said goes along with what you want to believe is right. All you guys and samurai are exactly the same. Just different sides of the coin.What's this about ice cream flavor? What's the analogy?

Thank you in advance for your response.

[Agent Helix]

"Self-Martyred Christians : What Can YOU Do to Help America's Most Put-Upon Majority?"

[Matt Algren]

"Self-Martyred Christians : What Can YOU Do to Help America's Most Put-Upon Majority?"
Hey, getting that second nail in is tricky.

[Corrina]

Do you think you could wipe the froth off your mouth, calm down a little, and show us where exactly on this thread anyone attacked Christianity?



I thought Mac and Sally did a really nice job of saying how Christianity plays a part in their lives IN THIS THREAD, never mind the rest of YABS.

So, Kevin, are you reading this thread carefully or just wanting to blow smoke?

[Dreadstar]

I'd like to just chime in and say that I know EXACTLY where Kevin is coming from, even though he doesn't seem capable of expressing it in a neutral manner. And, to a certain extent, he's right. If you express an unpopular view, you're likely to get the basic "What the fuck is wrong with you?" in return.

And, please, I am NOT singling out YABS here, as I'm mostly familiar to it from COMM poly-sci and religion threads. It's the whole "I have in mind an ideal about what a perfect world would be like, and since I'm RIGHT if you express an opinion contrary to that ideal then you must be mentally deficient in some way, therefore you're a valid target and the gloves are off." thing.

And that's a helluva big preamble for the idea of a "thing" isn't it?

Nonetheless, I now submit myself to target du jour for expressing the unpopular view.

[Spike-X]

I thought Mac and Sally did a really nice job of saying how Christianity plays a part in their lives IN THIS THREAD, never mind the rest of YABS.


They certainly did.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

(PS---some of the greatest thinkers, philosophers, and defenders of freedom of all time were *not* American.)

I have to vigorously but respectfully disagree with the above.

Although, say, Martin Luther King was following in a path originally tread by Gandhi, all philosophers and leaders do. I have to think he qualifies as one of the greatest thinkers, philosophers, and defenders of freedom. Thoreau most certainly qualifies in this catagory as does, I would argue, John Brown. Most CERTAINLY Frederick Douglass does, and where would we be without Sojourner Truth? Mother Jones?

Hell, that Ben Franklin had one or two bon mots on the whole 'freedom' thing. :wink:

For such a young country, I think we've had some pretty solid thinkers in the 'Freedom' department.

[Corrina]

I'd like to just chime in and say that I know EXACTLY where Kevin is coming from, even though he doesn't seem capable of expressing it in a neutral manner. And, to a certain extent, he's right. If you express an unpopular view, you're likely to get the basic "What the fuck is wrong with you?" in return.

And, please, I am NOT singling out YABS here, as I'm mostly familiar to it from COMM poly-sci and religion threads. It's the whole "I have in mind an ideal about what a perfect world would be like, and since I'm RIGHT if you express an opinion contrary to that ideal then you must be mentally deficient in some way, therefore you're a valid target and the gloves are off." thing.

And that's a helluva big preamble for the idea of a "thing" isn't it?

Nonetheless, I now submit myself to target du jour for expressing the unpopular view.

I think in any group that's been around a while, there comes to be an agreed set of opinions/rules/interactions which get a negative reaction when they're challenged. It's quite possibly human nature.

I don't think Kevin's approach is going to work to create discussion on his opinion. Yours might, though.

[Spike-X]

I have to vigorously but respectfully disagree with the above.

For such a young country, I think we've had some pretty solid thinkers in the 'Freedom' department.

She's not saying that none of them were American. She's saying that, along with the Americans, there were some others who weren't.

[Dreadstar]

I don't think Kevin's approach is going to work to create discussion on his opinion.

Yeah, I tried to make that clear in my opening line.

Yours might, though.

I hope he doesn't emulate me, I have a short temper. I wish Fenris was still around. THERE'S a guy to emulate when in disagreement.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

It's not hating bigotry is bigotry at all. There is a massive double standard here. If I went and attacked someone for being gay then I would feel the full might of the hypocrite brigade that is stationed here. I would never hear the end of it and would get called names until either I left or they did. Now if one of them went and attacked christianity then there would be nothing wrong with that.

Honestly, you're just plain wrong here. Slurs against Christianity have always been answered here.... Gilda and Beetlebum..... two of the same people who are pesky with their whole 'don't slur teh gays' stance, always but ALWAYS answer when someone says 'Christianity Is Evil'.

[Cam63]

I was not "an ass" in any way, shape, or form.

Sure you weren't, Arsey McButtcheeks.







...You were referring to the " sit down " muscle, weren't you ?

[Cam63]

Guys, if sk says the issue is not up for discussion, then there really shouldn't be any more discussion about it, kay?

My bad !....

[Cam63]

So, does anybody know any good fish recipes?

Fish don't write recipes, silly.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Y'know what it's high time for?

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/aug06/derail082306-dw.jpg

Derailment.

[Cam63]

Hey, getting that second nail in is tricky.

Nah... getting the third one in is the real bastard.

[TCJohnson]

Y'know what it's high time for?

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/aug06/derail082306-dw.jpg

Derailment.

"Ooooh, something shiny over there!"

[Cam63]

Y'know what it's high time for?

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/aug06/derail082306-dw.jpg

Derailment.

That aint no way to park a choo-choo.

[Typo Lad]

Y'know what it's high time for?

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/aug06/derail082306-dw.jpg

Derailment.
Yes, because G-d forbid we have a serious conversation.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

This is why you should never, ever, EVER put a penny on the tracks.

[Cam63]

This is why you should never, ever, EVER put a penny on the tracks.

Well, that goes for putting a sheila of any name on the tracks.

[Cam63]

Yes, because G-d forbid we have a serious conversation.

Bring it along too if you like.

[Adam C]

Crowley made judgements of entire swaths of people and there was no problem with that.

Let's go back to what Crowley said for a minute:

You know Fuzzy has both a culture and a religion as a reason for the potential bigotry surrounding him... what's your excuse again?

Key phrase is "potential bigotry" which indicates less that all of Singaporean culture is hateful, but certain aspects can contribute to bigotry. That's less strong than what Corrina said earlier in the thread.

And if pointing out that Singaporean culture doesn't have enlightened attitudes regarding homosexuality is hateful, then what happens when we get to a country where the situation is far worst like Jamaica or Saudi Arabia?

If samurai had done the same thing well then it's on, let the battle begin. Wait, that actually did happen right here in this thread. He repeated the judgment laid down by crowley and all of a sudden samurai is the racist and crowley is the hero. How the hell did that happen?.

Go back and read through the thread. Fuzzy stated the issue clearly, even admitting that he was adverse to gay people. He by-in-large (with possibly one exception) got very friendly, understanding, welcoming responses. Samurai goes after one of Corrina's posts for attacking a culture and then proceeds to spend the next several pages claiming (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=7131694&postcount=85) if Fuzzy tried to share the gospel he'd be attacked, claiming that one poster is asking him to lie (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=7131812&postcount=92), that the posters here are trying to turn him away (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=7132950&postcount=107) from Christianity, etc. Frankly a lot of this strikes me as a form of dressed-up trolling, and if it's not he's certainly guaranteed he'd get a negative reaction with his insubstantial accusations regarding other people's motives. Granted it doesn't help that Samurai already has a really poor reputation here and people already have a lot of reason to roll their eyes at him. So if this is a case of someone being punished for merely breaking orthodoxy I wouldn't know.

[Red Jack]

I think in any group that's been around a while, there comes to be an agreed set of opinions/rules/interactions which get a negative reaction when they're challenged. It's quite possibly human nature.

I don't think Kevin's approach is going to work to create discussion on his opinion. Yours might, though.

The thing is, while I would say there are obviously friendships here, l don't think the claim can be made that there is a monolith of any particular political, gender or religious view. I only know of two full-on "I HATE that guy" situations and I'm the focus of both of them. The rest of this place seems, well, pretty tolerant an open to difference.

People are frank, I think, but not intentionally cruel or derisive unless they are attacked (or perceive themselves to have been.).

Heated debate over fundamental principles is not the same as intolerance. If anything the ongoing humor and "why we love Diana/hate Didio/enjoy the occasional lesbian" indicates the opposite of intolerance.

Everybody's welcome to express and everybody is expected to take their lumps when they get challenged. Fair.

[Samurai]

The thing is, while I would say there are obviously friendships here, l don't think the claim can be made that there is a monolith of any particular political, gender or religious view. I only know of two full-on "I HATE that guy" situations and I'm the focus of both of them. The rest of this place seems, well, pretty tolerant an open to difference.
I definitely see an orthodox opinion on a number of issues around here, and extreme intolerance for anything that varies from it in even the slightest way. (Supporting civil unions instead of calling it "gay marriage" being the biggest)

And I'd say people definitely hate Olney a lot more than you, and probably more people hate me than hate you.

People are frank, I think, but not intentionally cruel or derisive unless they are attacked (or perceive themselves to have been.).
True in most cases for most people, though there is a growing group of people who also are intentionally cruel and derisive against people they choose to label "intolerant", in the belief that "intolerance of intolerance isn't intolerance". It is the classic labeling of one's opponents as "the other", making it ok to attack them with a viscous impunity that one would never use upon one's own community member.

Heated debate over fundamental principles is not the same as intolerance. If anything the ongoing humor and "why we love Diana/hate Didio/enjoy the occasional lesbian" indicates the opposite of intolerance.

Everybody's welcome to express and everybody is expected to take their lumps when they get challenged. Fair.

Except, some people "take their lumps" from a dozen people, and others "take their lumps" from 1 or 2 people (who are themselves then attacked for daring to hand out lumps to a friend...). Not exactly "fair"...

[Matt Algren]

I definitely see an orthodox opinion on a number of issues around here, and extreme intolerance for anything that varies from it in even the slightest way. (Supporting civil unions instead of calling it "gay marriage" being the biggest)Bigotry in general is eschewed around CBR, yes. This is a good thing.

Not to further the digression, but I certainly don't think you should call it "gay marriage" at all. I think you should call it "marriage."

[Samurai]

Bigotry in general is eschewed around CBR, yes. This is a good thing.

Not to further the digression, but I certainly don't think you should call it "gay marriage" at all. I think you should call it "marriage."

Unless, of course, everything you (general "you") don't like is simply labeled "bigotry", and thus given the green light to be attacked.

And point taken.

[CutterMike]

Y'know what it's high time for?

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/aug06/derail082306-dw.jpg

Derailment.
DAY-UM!

I would NOT want to have been there when they moved whatever was putting the tension on that bent rail up by the engine... That could have gotten right nasty!

[Gilda Dent]

Jesus. That can't be legal, can it?

Until they have tenure, teachers can be declined a new contract without the employer giving a reason.

Once a teacher has tenure, renewal of one's contract is automatic so long as the teacher gives notice of intent to return and failure to offer a new contract is considered termination. It becomes harder to fire a teacher for being gay, but unless gender identity and expression is a protected class in one's state, being transsexual is by itself considered just cause for termination.

[Tommy]

I definitely see an orthodox opinion on a number of issues around here, and extreme intolerance for anything that varies from it in even the slightest way. (Supporting civil unions instead of calling it "gay marriage" being the biggest)

It certainly has nothing to do with page after page of explanations as to why "civil unions" just isn't good enough...

True in most cases for most people, though there is a growing group of people who also are intentionally cruel and derisive against people they choose to label "intolerant", in the belief that "intolerance of intolerance isn't intolerance". It is the classic labeling of one's opponents as "the other", making it ok to attack them with a viscous impunity that one would never use upon one's own community member.

It certainly has nothing to do with that first group being "othered" initially and denied their civil rights. They should just cheerfully accept the people attempting to make their lives worse, rather than fight back, because that's what tolerance is all about.

[Tommy]

It's not hating bigotry is bigotry at all. There is a massive double standard here. If I went and attacked someone for being gay then I would feel the full might of the hypocrite brigade that is stationed here. I would never hear the end of it and would get called names until either I left or they did. Now if one of them went and attacked christianity then there would be nothing wrong with that. Anyone that came to it's aid would be attacked and called names just as someone did that attacked someone for being gay. If there is a discussion going on and someone calls someone else a liberal then all of a sudden some commandment has been broken and nothing that you say beyond that is valid because you resorted to childish name calling even though it's not even close to being that. On the other hand you can throw around racist and fascist and neocon 5000 times and there is nothing wrong with that because it isn't name calling if it's true and they said it so it has to be true. If they were ever wrong then the universe would implode.

I take it you have not been around here much? People who (unfairly) bash Christianity get yelled at all the time. If you looked at the posters ON THIS THREAD you would note many many strong Christians. I've even defend Christianity often.

Unless of course you are confusing a discussion of Christianity's tenets, history, and current path with being insulting...

(Also I think you will find a lot of people here are openly liberal. The only people trying to make "liberal" an insult are conservatives who have to resort to pathetic psychological games since they can't win people over with their actual platform,)

I'd respond to the rest, but someone else already did.

[Sabrinaset]

Y'know what it's high time for?

http://graphics.jsonline.com/graphics/news/img/aug06/derail082306-dw.jpg

Derailment.


....you rang?

[Red Jack]

I definitely see an orthodox opinion on a number of issues around here, and extreme intolerance for anything that varies from it in even the slightest way. (Supporting civil unions instead of calling it "gay marriage" being the biggest)

YABS is gay-friendly. What do you expect? Even the most fundamental (traditional) religious folks here, for the most part, seem to adopt a live and let live attitude on that. I don't think you can truly enjoy Gail's work or Gail herself and dislike homosexuals or homosexuality. Not that she's writing treatises on the subject but, y'know, come on. Life's too short to stick it to people because they don't screw who you want them to.

And I'd say people definitely hate Olney a lot more than you, and probably more people hate me than hate you.

From what I understand about the Olney situation, he screwed over a lot of folks in a pretty blatant and premeditated way. I wasn't one of them so I avoid that thread. I've nothing to offer on that subject. But, if somebody dislikes me MORE than him based on 'net posting, they can suck it.

I couldn't care less who hates me on a message board. What EV er, y'know. It happens. And I'm not sure anyone does beyond the two I alluded to. There are MANY conservtative voices here. There are MANY Christian voices here. THere are MANY progressive voices here and MANY non-Christian ones. MOSTLY we get along great. I personally get a HUGE kick out of Sabrina even though we've mostly been at odds on most subjects. She's funny. She's foolishly conservative but she's young and she's smart so there's hope for her. ;)

SOMETIMES, on some fairly core, fundamental issues, we get in each other's grills. So what? If your philosophy can't take a few dozen pokes with a stick, it's time to find a new one. Seriously. THis place is NOTHING compared to the world. Literally.

... there is a growing group of people who also are intentionally cruel and derisive against people they choose to label "intolerant", in the belief that "intolerance of intolerance isn't intolerance". It is the classic labeling of one's opponents as "the other", making it ok to attack them with a viscous impunity that one would never use upon one's own community member.

Intolerance of intolerance isn't intolerance. Duh. What kind of an idiot would think otherwise? I think, personally, that some of your views are extreme and that you play with facts a bit. But no one has banned you. No one is trolling after you (like some I might mention ;>). You just express a stack of things that a lot of folks, by coincidence, don't like or, yes, find somewhat hateful.

So we say so. Trust me. No one is checking in with me to make sure we're on the same page on anything. It's just random. Well, random-ish.

There are a lot of women here. Several homosexuals and transgendered folks. A few black people and a few asian descendants of various nationalities. Aussies, Kiwis, Brits and others. While I'd never describe there being a monolith of thought here, far from it, if you put your foot down too hard on what's been the oppressive thrust of western society for the last five hundred odd years, you're going to get a backlash from an audience like this.

Except, some people "take their lumps" from a dozen people, and others "take their lumps" from 1 or 2 people (who are themselves then attacked for daring to hand out lumps to a friend...). Not exactly "fair"...

um. Have you met me? I've fended off dozens at a time and come back to play. It's how it goes. it's a hard knock life.

[Buzz Dixon]

I think Fuzzy's mom should be less worried about him hanging out with the gays and more about him hanging out with comic book people.

Comic books are the sleaziest industry on Earth, worse than porn.







(And I oughta know, I've worked for both of 'em.)

[Solaris]

I have to vigorously but respectfully disagree with the above.

Although, say, Martin Luther King was following in a path originally tread by Gandhi, all philosophers and leaders do. I have to think he qualifies as one of the greatest thinkers, philosophers, and defenders of freedom. Thoreau most certainly qualifies in this catagory as does, I would argue, John Brown. Most CERTAINLY Frederick Douglass does, and where would we be without Sojourner Truth? Mother Jones?

Hell, that Ben Franklin had one or two bon mots on the whole 'freedom' thing. :wink:

For such a young country, I think we've had some pretty solid thinkers in the 'Freedom' department.

Certainly we have! (And I wasn't saying they weren't.) I was pointing out that Sam's attitude tends to be Amero-centric, rather along the lines of the blind patriotism we're taught in elementary school. Our school system teaches this early on, under the excuse of "younger children can't handle the complexities and flaws in our historical figures," but IMO the reality is far less about that, and far more about trying to instill blind patriotism in our youth. If it were just about age/maturity limitations, then if it was *not* Amero-centric, far more would be taught about the great minds and influences who were/are *not* U.S. figures.

The U.S. still promotes (via propeganda that isn't even *seen* as such, by most people) the various mythologies we've derived about our country and our "founding fathers." Children are required to learn and say the Pledge of Allegiance, and teachers required to conduct it. Lessons promote a nostalgic absolute rightness to events and people in history, right down to the annual Thanksgiving/Pilgrim hoopla (yes, I loved Wednesday Addam's comments on that, in the 2nd movie).

I love the principles this country attempted to embrace when it was founded. I firmly believe in them. I am also aware that, even at the time they were being implimented, there were also conditions that were counter to those principles (slavery and treatment of Native Americans being two prime examples, but not limited to that). No country is perfect, and somehow we've struggled on to try to address and correct injustices, and are still doing so.

However, there is a difference between acknowledging and supporting the good and abiding principles we started with and try to continue with, and the emotional propeganda we get bombarded with which ignores the ills, and which also promotes an attitude of "freedom superiority" in our population.

I don't say the pledge of allegiance. I don't pledge to our flag, nor our government, and especially not to the patriotic nationalistic brainwashing *we* are given. Instead, I pledge allegiance to the core principles (the spirit of them) that we started with: freedom, justice for all, equal rights, freedom of religion, etc. The fact that we started *off* with those, as a new country, is definitely significant, and worthy of respect, even if we didn't start off with, or have now, full *practice* of those principles. BUT, we also don't own, or even corner the market, on those principles or practices thereof---despite what many U.S. citizens believe... and my point was, I think Sam is one of those who on some level has "bought the line" and believes that we *do* corner the market on such.

A *guideline* to freedom may be enshrined on a tattered piece of paper under glass---the *existence* of freedom is in the living breathing lives of its citizens... and any human and any country can/could be as much or greater supporters of freedom than we are. The superiority some of our citizens feel about our country is a deliberately-inculated thing, and one that I object to.

I'd rather applaud our country for, at its inception, attempting to clearly set up the core concepts of freedom in front of us, and challenging all subsequent generations to live that freedom and expound upon it (while also seeing the ways and times we've failed at it)... rather than insist that "we are the best, and our freedom/country has no flaw."

In some ways, my patriotism is similar to Mac's Christianity: I'd rather live the core ideals of it, support those ideals, and be an example of them, than adhere to a blind, unquestioning, simple faith that's never questioned and is assumed to be superior to all else.

I am thankful for the many freedoms I am guaranteed by law. I am also aware of the freedoms that I or others are still denied (or are prohibited by law), and, that even a guarantee of a right or freedom by law is only as good as those who support, uphold, and enforce said laws.

In a somewhat related aside, a Libertarian friend once posed a question to me:

"What is the basic, most central thing Christian schools teach?"

"Christianity," I answered.

"And Jewish schools?"

"Judaism, and how to live as a Jew."

"And you can say that for pretty much any kind of specialty school. Now---what is the most basic thing public schools teach?"

"How not to question the status quo and the system/government."

And lo---the light dawned. :biggrin:

[Charles RB]

The U.S. still promotes (via propeganda that isn't even *seen* as such, by most people) the various mythologies we've derived about our country

I like the one where you think you won WW2 single-handedly and/or freed the world in it.

Everyone knows it was Britain that won WW2 single-handedly, and we were a Plucky Nation Standing Alone against a larger opponent. (Fuck off, Empire, Commonwealth dominions and expat forces, you don't exist)

[Hybrid2]

"And you can say that for pretty much any kind of specialty school. Now---what is the most basic thing public schools teach?"

"How not to question the status quo and the system/government."

And lo---the light dawned. :biggrin:

That's what there trying to teach?:confused:
No wonder i barely learned anything.


How are we(and the childrens)supose to change things if there teached not to? O_o

[Spike-X]

That's what there trying to teach?:confused:
No wonder i barely learned anything.

Including the difference between "they're" and "there"?


How are we(and the childrens)supose to change things if there teached not to? O_o

Is this a trick question?

[JonniRandom]

Message us about gay issues?

Sure, go ahead (if you haven't found someone already).

I can't below you don't advocate homosexuality, after all:

"...what's wrong with queers? We're all the rage this season..."

(Apollo, Authority: Revolution)

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Certainly we have! (And I wasn't saying they weren't.)

Eh. I had some sort of weird, early morning misinterpretation of what you said.

[sk716]

Sam, final warning, carry your bullshit arguments and blame game back to the unmoderated threads.

[CutterMike]

Eh. I had some sort of weird, early morning misinterpretation of what you said.Caffeine-deprivation'll do it every time!

[Hybrid2]

Including the difference between "they're" and "there"?




Is this a trick question?

I only realy learned english when i got cable and starte to read comics.

And no it's not a trick question.The way things are need to change or it's hell.

[Spike-X]

I only realy learned english when i got cable and starte to read comics.

Fair enough. Sorry, didn't notice your location before.

And no it's not a trick question.The way things are need to change or it's hell.

I know. But what I was getting at is, no, you're not supposed to change things. You're supposed to go along like good little sheep, not asking questions, and consume, consume, CONSUME!!!

[bfrank]

*Waves g'day to Fuzzie's silly cow of a mum*

This was probably the worst thing said in this thread, and yet no body is shitting on him.....

[MacQuarrie]

I'm trying to tell him to treat other posters with a bit of courtesy and not be openly insulting to their culture and religion. Yes, I'm a conservative and not a cultural relativist. I do believe that certain cultures have what I consider to be a better way of handling certain things. I've often stated that in the past. However, we're talking about a 16 year old guy, a fellow poster, and whether or not to directly attack his culture and religion in front of him (and to him), vs a more abstract discussion of, for instance, female circumcision in certain cultures being a terrible thing. I have far less problem with the latter (even if during the conversation it is called a barbaric cultural practice) than the former. Having lived overseas, I know a thing or 2 about how to talk directly with people from another culture, and even if you are thinking "Man, that's a stupid thing", it's much better not to say this directly to the person, but to instead talk about your own culture and other foreign cultures, teach about them, rather than put the other person on the defensive.
Except that's not what you tried to tell him.

you deliberately twisted and misrepresented my post to try to turn me into the straw man upon which to hang your spurious accusation that YABSers are bigots. That's what you were trying to tell him. Shall I go back and quote you, where you made up bullshit that I didn't say, including fake quotes, so that you could rail against the argumetn that I did not make.
It all ties back to what you were saying earlier about not coming right out and proselytizing. Attacking the other culture to a person's face is proselytizing in the most strident manner. Discussing things with them in a less judgemental way may help them to see another way. Back among your own group, you might say "Man, that is a crazy thing they do!", but you need to have a bit of class when talking to people or else they immediately go defensive (which is understandable).
Here are some facts... I have a number of friends who are or were missionaries to other countries, including but not limited to Egypt, the Phillipines, Bhutan, Nepal and Thailand, among others. In many countries, proselytizing is illegal. In some places, it's a capital offense. My friends could have been deported (at best), imprisoned, or executed for preaching the Gospel. As a result, according to what they tell me, the majority of the missionary work around the world is EXACTLY what I described; ministry and compassion. They go into these places under a visa stating that they are english teachers or hospital workers or civil engineers or volunteer assistance workers, and they set to work trying to help people in whatever way they can, whether that's providing day care for their kids or digging wells for water, and most of their "preaching" is non-verbal, actions only. It's a very effective and utterly non-confrontational method of evangelism, and it is EXACTLY what I suggested Fuzzy consider as an approach for dealing with his mother's objections.

Nobody attacked Fuzzy's culture until you stirred up the accusations of bigotry here. Accusations that you invented out of thin air by inserting your own spin into my comments.

"If everybody has a problem with you, maybe the problem is you."

[MacQuarrie]

I think it's more their "if you disagree with me on what the best ice cream flavor is then you're a racist, homophobic neo con and every thought in your head is wrong" shtick that makes them the real bigots and not the "not tolerating intolerance" they like to use as an excuse for their bigoted ways. But I disagree with you guys on most things so nothing I say actually matters no matter how much truth might be behind it. It's amazing how that works with all of you guys slapping yourselves on the back all the time for being so progressive and tolerant of everything as long as whats said goes along with what you want to believe is right. All you guys and samurai are exactly the same. Just different sides of the coin.

There's no "them" here.

Truth: I am a Christian. Have been for over 20 years. I'm an elder in my church, have served on the church board, have taught Sunday School off and on for over 15 years, have baptized people, have been a youth group leader, and have never made any secret of it here.

I've argued against abortion here. Against euthanasia, against gun control. against a lot of "liberal" ideas and programs. Some of those debates have gotten quite heated.

But I have never felt any hostility at CBR because of my beliefs. People may disagree with me, but they have never personally attacked me for having the gall to disagree with them.

Maybe the problem isn't what one says, it's how one says it.

EDITED to add: You say "But I disagree with you guys on most things..." How is that possible when we don't agree with each other on most things?

[MacQuarrie]

It's not hating bigotry is bigotry at all. There is a massive double standard here. If I went and attacked someone for being gay then I would feel the full might of the hypocrite brigade that is stationed here. I would never hear the end of it and would get called names until either I left or they did. Now if one of them went and attacked christianity then there would be nothing wrong with that. Anyone that came to it's aid would be attacked and called names just as someone did that attacked someone for being gay. If there is a discussion going on and someone calls someone else a liberal then all of a sudden some commandment has been broken and nothing that you say beyond that is valid because you resorted to childish name calling even though it's not even close to being that. On the other hand you can throw around racist and fascist and neocon 5000 times and there is nothing wrong with that because it isn't name calling if it's true and they said it so it has to be true. If they were ever wrong then the universe would implode.
If you can't see the difference between attacking a person and attacking a belief, well, I don't know what to tell you. But there it is in your own words.

[Lester C.]

You're a happy well adjusted 16 year old living at home with good parents who have done right by you. Keep everything happy in your household and don't rock the boat with your political beliefs until you move out.

Speaking of your political beliefs, or your beliefs in general, you are about to go on a journey as you enter the workforce, higher education etc. You may become more liberal, more conservative, apolitcal or even a radical. Whatever path you choose I wish you nothing but luck and happiness. Finally remember to enjoy the journey as much as the reward you get at the end of the path otherwise you're going to be a miserable bastard.

[Nick Soapdish]

Certainly we have! (And I wasn't saying they weren't.) I was pointing out that Sam's attitude tends to be Amero-centric, rather along the lines of the blind patriotism we're taught in elementary school. Our school system teaches this early on, under the excuse of "younger children can't handle the complexities and flaws in our historical figures," but IMO the reality is far less about that, and far more about trying to instill blind patriotism in our youth. If it were just about age/maturity limitations, then if it was *not* Amero-centric, far more would be taught about the great minds and influences who were/are *not* U.S. figures.


It's not just elementary school.

Throughout middle and high school, we get our history with a distinctly Amero-centric view. Some history textbooks even tell you that the purpose of the book is to instill in the student pride in their nation and nation's history.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading it in one of my textbooks as well and never even thought to question that goal.

Amazingly, it wasn't until college that I learned that history has a perspective, despite hearing about how the Commies brainwash their citizens by re-writing history. It had just never occurred to me that we would put the best light on our own history. I hope that most other students weren't nearly as naive as I.

[MacQuarrie]

Sam, final warning, carry your bullshit arguments and blame game back to the unmoderated threads.

Sorry, I hadn't gotten this far when I responded to him. Just wante dto set the record straight.

There are a lot of ways to piss me off, but putting words in my mouth is way up toward the top of the list.

[MacQuarrie]

Amazingly, it wasn't until college that I learned that history has a perspective, despite hearing about how the Commies brainwash their citizens by re-writing history. It had just never occurred to me that we would put the best light on our own history. I hope that most other students weren't nearly as naive as I.
See "the San Patricios" for an example of the above. Look up the American version and then the Mexican version.

A short summary: In Mexico, the San Patricios are hailed as heroes, martyrs slain for freedom, and are the subject of a national holiday. In America, they rate a single line in most history textbooks, something to the effect that a bunch of drunken Irish immigrants deserted the US Army and joined the Mexicans in fighting against the US, and were executed for their treason.

Nope, no spin there.

[CutterMike]

It's not just elementary school.

Throughout middle and high school, we get our history with a distinctly Amero-centric view. Some history textbooks even tell you that the purpose of the book is to instill in the student pride in their nation and nation's history.

I'm pretty sure I remember reading it in one of my textbooks as well and never even thought to question that goal.

Amazingly, it wasn't until college that I learned that history has a perspective, despite hearing about how the Commies brainwash their citizens by re-writing history. It had just never occurred to me that we would put the best light on our own history. I hope that most other students weren't nearly as naive as I.
One of the best classes in my high school was my senior Civics class.

Part of what made it great was that the teacher for it had almost been let go the previous year. The other teachers, the students, and the parents ALL went to the school committee and told them in no uncertain terms that they were NUTS if they let this guy go. He was kept on, but HE let THEM know that this would be his last year.

In any case, on the first day of class, he brought out a stack of well-worn textbooks, clearly from a number of years previous (this was about 1970). The book was a 1950s vintage textbook called "Communism vs. Democracy". Most of the illustrations were of little "M. Bic" looking characters. in point/counterpoint-style cartoons. For instance, the "Democracy" side would have happy, smiling factory workers walking out to a parking lot filled with big black cars, while the :"Communist" facrory workers all had perfectly blank faces and marched in uniform ranks out of the factory.

It was a classic.

As we're all looking rather pole-axed at these books, the teacher hefts one in his hand and says:

"According to the school committee, I'm supposed to teach you from this book. As i happens, however, the rules say nothing about HOW I have to teach from this book, so for the first part of this year we will be studying "Propaganda and Critical Reading."

Yes, it is sad that it took 'til Senior year in high school for this subject to come up, and sad that it took a teacher who figured that he had nothing to lose to teach it, but it DID happen, and for that alone, I will always be grateful!

[Typo Lad]

"According to the school committee, I'm supposed to teach you from this book. As i happens, however, the rules say nothing about HOW I have to teach from this book, so for the first part of this year we will be studying "Propaganda and Critical Reading."


That's just brilliant.

What amazes me was that even in a Yeshiva, I was exposed to those "Yay, America Uber Allis" texts. Never actually studied US Jewish history till post-college.

[Charles RB]

It had just never occurred to me that we would put the best light on our own history.

I don't know if it's the same now, but the Year 8 history textbooks we had specifically brought up the mass bombings of German civilians by Britain, with sources for and against doing so. (Also how Dunkirk was a big retreat that required hundreds of civilian boats out of sheer desperation and got spun as a glorious triumph for domestic propaganda)

The book had this rather eerie German propaganda poster in it, of a small image of someone with a light on and high above this monstrous screaming skeleton holding a bomb. "Alert! The Enemy Sees Your Lights!"

[Solaris]

..."According to the school committee, I'm supposed to teach you from this book. As i happens, however, the rules say nothing about HOW I have to teach from this book, so for the first part of this year we will be studying "Propaganda and Critical Reading."


That teacher ROCKED. TOTALLY.

I like the one where you think you won WW2 single-handedly and/or freed the world in it.

Everyone knows it was Britain that won WW2 single-handedly, and we were a Plucky Nation Standing Alone against a larger opponent. (Fuck off, Empire, Commonwealth dominions and expat forces, you don't exist)

While the textbooks typically mention the Allies, etc., there *is* a distinct flavor of "but the *real* war started when *we* entered it" that tends to crop up at times, along with the firm conviction that the Allies would never have won without us.

My opinion is that the Allies *might* have won without us, but regardless, the war would've stretched on much longer, and quite possibly the Germans would've developed the A-Bomb and thrown it at Britain---not good at all.

Yes, the U.S. made significant contributions to the Allies in WWII on both fronts---but you're right that many Americans simply don't give enough credit to all the other countries who were fighting and dying, and really, not enough to the ones who were staving off with teeth and nails the Axis powers, before we joined. There was a shitload of heroism, sacrifice, and courage going on before we ever got involved. We *helped*, and provided some very important help---but everyone, including the various resistance fighters, made it happen.

Basically, it was a team effort. Heh.

[king mob]

I don't know if it's the same now, but the Year 8 history textbooks we had specifically brought up the mass bombings of German civilians by Britain, with sources for and against doing so. (Also how Dunkirk was a big retreat that required hundreds of civilian boats out of sheer desperation and got spun as a glorious triumph for domestic propaganda)


It was like that when I was at school which is a few more years ago than yourself. Mind, Scottish history tended to sound like this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=csCexYYUhow)at times.

[beetlebum]

Certainly we have! (And I wasn't saying they weren't.) I was pointing out that Sam's attitude tends to be Amero-centric, rather along the lines of the blind patriotism we're taught in elementary school. Our school system teaches this early on, under the excuse of "younger children can't handle the complexities and flaws in our historical figures," but IMO the reality is far less about that, and far more about trying to instill blind patriotism in our youth. If it were just about age/maturity limitations, then if it was *not* Amero-centric, far more would be taught about the great minds and influences who were/are *not* U.S. figures.

I'd rather applaud our country for, at its inception, attempting to clearly set up the core concepts of freedom in front of us, and challenging all subsequent generations to live that freedom and expound upon it (while also seeing the ways and times we've failed at it)... rather than insist that "we are the best, and our freedom/country has no flaw."

In some ways, my patriotism is similar to Mac's Christianity: I'd rather live the core ideals of it, support those ideals, and be an example of them, than adhere to a blind, unquestioning, simple faith that's never questioned and is assumed to be superior to all else.



An excellent post, Solaris.

http://www.fanforum.com/images/smilies/clap.gif

I feel the exact same way about my patriotism, and my faith, as well.

And what people like Samurai need to realise is being critical of one's country does not mean that you are anti-American. It just means that you want what's best for it.

An example--or one area where my patriotism is questioned for brining this up: In 1954 the CIA, acting on orders approved by President Dwight Eisenhower and secretary of state John Foster Dulles, overthrew President Jacabo Armenz of Guatemala. As a result, an estimated 300,000 people died at the hands of subsequent governments, and paramilitary organizations, such as the "White Hand" (Mano Blanca), and the Anticommunist Secret Army, (Ejército Secreto Anticomunista).

And I could go on about Indonesia, Greece, Brazil, the two million tons of bombs dropped on Laos during the "Secret War", and so forth.

Acknowledging this to me, is acknowledging reality. The fact that so many people are in this country are ignorant about these things saddens me, and it makes me feel that we are doomed to repeat history, until people get wise and stop confusing blind faith with a love of one's country.

[Sabrinaset]

You know ... I hated history classes until I took them as university electives, and found out all the stuff that was out there that the really useless books in jr high and high school left out. I mean, there was stuff ... I remember my book in jr high just had one sentence about the Papal Schism, but then I read A Distant Mirror: The Calamitous 14th Century by Tuchman, and there was so much interesting stuff about it out there. And I'm still learning too ... like, BeetleBum just mentioned the Secret Wars in Laos, and I didn't even know the Beyonder was involved over there!

Maaaan, this thread is pretty good .... and considering the day I just had, boy do I need to be cheered up. It was as bad as you could get there. Whew!

[Charles RB]

everyone, including the various resistance fighters, made it happen.

Hell, some of the most important people in the allied victory were the Polish - if the Biuro Szyfrów hadn't given us all their data on German codes and ciphers, Alan Turing and the boys at Bletchley Park would never have broken the Enigma ciphers and if we hadn't done that, the UK would've fallen.

[Gail Simone]

I'd like to just chime in and say that I know EXACTLY where Kevin is coming from, even though he doesn't seem capable of expressing it in a neutral manner. And, to a certain extent, he's right. If you express an unpopular view, you're likely to get the basic "What the fuck is wrong with you?" in return.

And, please, I am NOT singling out YABS here, as I'm mostly familiar to it from COMM poly-sci and religion threads. It's the whole "I have in mind an ideal about what a perfect world would be like, and since I'm RIGHT if you express an opinion contrary to that ideal then you must be mentally deficient in some way, therefore you're a valid target and the gloves are off." thing.

And that's a helluva big preamble for the idea of a "thing" isn't it?

Nonetheless, I now submit myself to target du jour for expressing the unpopular view.

I don't dig ANYONE being mocked for their personal beliefs.

It's not cool...it makes the mockER look like a jackass, not the mockEE.

[Gail Simone]

I mean here, of course. Mocking people for believing the moon launches were fake is A-OK with ME!

[Hybrid2]

I mean here, of course. Mocking people for believing the moon launches were fake is A-OK with ME!

Mean!

They lied to us! There's proff!