Mom doesn't like me hanging around YABS.

[Sgt. Fuzzy]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Thats kinda weird....I mean....your online. Its not like your in the same room with anyone. Maybe you should stand up to your mom and say "Hey its no big deal , its a comic book site and so a few posters are gay. I'm sure theres a lot who are black and hell...some maybe even "gasp" live in other countries !"


:tongue:

[cedardryad]

I don't think anyone will hate you because you don't advocate homosexuality. Everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Its good to see that you are open to learning more about homosexuality.

Knowledge is power, and knowing is half the battle. G.I Joeee.

Anyways, you aren't outwardly bashing gays, as far as I know, so I don't see a reason to hate you. I, however, can't speak for everyone else on YABS. Gay people aren't different from anyone at all. People are people. We are all a bunch of stupid morons.:biggrin:

Oh, and I'm sure there are black gays from other countries on here, that may also be pagan or Jewish or even...Muslim. :biggrin:

[Cam63]

*Waves g'day to Fuzzie's silly cow of a mum*

[Michael P]

Tell her it's impossible to catch "the gay" over the Internet.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Tell her it's impossible to catch "the gay" over the Internet.

Shhhh don't tell him that. Since I came to YABS I've been listening to a lot of Elton John .

[Merey]

Please also tell your mom that she is of a dying breed and one day will be a relic of the days of yore.

[Infra-Man]

Tell her it's impossible to catch "the gay" over the Internet.

Though you can use the internet to purchase a copy of The Cay.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/The_Cay_cover.jpg

[bert]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.

I don't mind answering any questions at all. . .if you want to post here, that's fine (I'll let you know if I prefer to answer in PM).

I see from your profile that you are only 16.

I'm all for respecting your elders (especially a parent). . but if you're old enough to express yourself as coherently as you have above? you're old enough to have your own viewpoints, and not be forced to believe what your parents tell you.

however, at 16, you are still living at home, and you should respect your Mother's wishes. Is logging in from the Library an option?

[Matt Algren]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.
Sgt. Fuzzy, I'm Methodist too. I'm also gay, and I have no trouble reconciling the two. Not anymore, at least.

Here's a good place to start (http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian) when you're looking at the Bible and homosexuality. It isn't the UMC perspective, but only by about a 5% swing (43 votes) at General Conference (http://matt.reclaimrecess.com/2008/05/united-methodist-church-shames-god/) in April. Here's a link (http://www.rmnetwork.org/mission.asp) to a group of Methodist clergy and layfolks who disagree with the Church's general opinion and is working to change it. Lots of resources there as well.

[Cayman]

Though you can use the internet to purchase a copy of The Cay.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/The_Cay_cover.jpg

That's how I caught it.

[Gail Simone]

Sgt. Fuzzy, I'm Methodist too. I'm also gay, and I have no trouble reconciling the two. Not anymore, at least.

Here's a good place to start (http://www.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian) when you're looking at the Bible and homosexuality. It isn't the UMC perspective, but only by about a 5% swing (43 votes) at General Conference (http://matt.reclaimrecess.com/2008/05/united-methodist-church-shames-god/) in April. Here's a link (http://www.rmnetwork.org/mission.asp) to a group of Methodist clergy and layfolks who disagree with the Church's general opinion and is working to change it. Lots of resources there as well.

That's weird, I didn't know you were gay, Matt.

[Mr.EZ]

The point of life is being better than your parents, and it sounds like Fuzzy doesn't really have far to go.

[Gail Simone]

Guys, please remember he does come from Singapore, which is attempting to adjust to the reality of gay people, but has until very recently been very much against it in any form at all. He's coming from a very different background, but thins ARE changing there.

I think it's brave and perfectly fine to ask questions about it, Fuzzy. And while I respect your mother, I could not disagree with her more. If I cut the gay people I know out of my life, it's MY life that would be lessened immeasurably. And cutting yourself off from good, caring people, even if you oppose their lifestyle, is a bit of a shame.

Don't feel you have to push yourself either way. Just keep an open mind. The truth is, no one is the same person at 26 that they are at 16. Change will come for good or ill. But having met you, I think I can say with confidence that you're going to be a fine young man and I have no concerns about the person you will become. We don't have to grow up to be our parents, in any case.

Good luck.

[Matt Algren]

That's weird, I didn't know you were gay, Matt.
Not so weird. I've been out less than a year. I just haven't mentioned it in threads where you were.

edit: I didn't realize Fuzzy was from Singapore. That almost certainly changes the customs and norms that he has to navigate.

[Gail Simone]

Not so weird. I've been out less than a year. I just haven't mentioned it in threads where you were.

Ah. Well, I'm glad you're out and I hope it went well for you.

[Sabrinaset]

I'll chime in too, Sgt. Fuzzy. I'm a lesbian, a Conservative, and a nondenominational Christian who goes to church when she can ... usually at the chapel at work. So, if you have any questions, you can ask me in PM or on the boards, I don't really mind.

Also ...

Please also tell your mom that she is of a dying breed and one day will be a relic of the days of yore.

...don't do this. Trust me.



I was surprised about Matt too. In fact, I just found out in the Mega 3000 Political thread. Heyas!

[stamen]

Fuzzy,

Can ask how old you are?

Here's my advice for whatever its worth. First and foremost, give your mom respect. I don't agree with my folks on many things, but I respect them. They don't drink and they've never asked me to not drink around them, but I would if they did. I wouldn't necessarily de-beer myself at dinner without a conversation with them about it, but I'd honor them as best I could... which in the case of having a Samuel Adams or a Coke, would be a pretty easy choice.

Second thing I would point out is that any belief worth its weight in salt is one that operates independent of its surroundings. Building confidence in what you believe and why you believe it is part of growing up. The only real dangerous ideas are ones that forbid meaningful dialogue between people or groups of people.

Most homosexuals (not all) are quite used to being around folks that don't agree with their lifestyle or orientation... in some ways they've grown to expect it. Some have grown bitter, but by and large I think you and your mother will find out that they are willing and open to hear you out-- provided you are in turn willing to actually listen and hear them out.

Where you choose to offer up a closed door is your business, but don't expect to keep places shut off from dialogue and then expect the person you're talking with to keep their's constantly open. Life doesn't work that way at all. It's better to find the places that you can agree and use that as a starting point for a relationship-- be it RL or online.

So you can't advocate for homosexuality, it's ok for you to start there... that's just where you are. But could you advocate for equal rights in the areas of hospital visitation, insurance, or child adoption? Maybe two of the three? Maybe just one?

Rather than focus on what you won't advocate for, ask yourself -- ask your mom in friendly conversation-- "What can we realistically advocate for in the name of justice?" Rather than using difference as an opportunity to close dialogue, why not find a similarity as a place to actually begin meaningful dialogue.

In spite of the energy required to constantly affront homosexuality, ask your mom why we as Christians don't do a better job of "protecting" marriage ourselves? Could it be that we're so busy looking outside that we forgot to look inside?

Ultimately, this community is probably one of the safer places to explore these sorts of things because the board is fairly diverse. Most people can communicate back and forth with a degree of intellect, reason, and heartfelt emotion. You might get a crack comment every so often, what message board doesn't? But for the most part, I think you'll find the YABS folks willing to create a safe place for you to explore these issues, which in turn, you should explore with your parents.

Long story short, don't start with confrontation... not here, not at home. Start where ever you can start feeling like you still have both your feet on the ground. It might get messy at times, but in my experience, God works best in a mess.

For what its worth feel free to PM me anytime. I hear your reservations and your mom's. I've been a pastor for 17 years and I've been down this path a hundred times with different folks. I don't discount them at all... but don't shut a door, even if it means just being able to better clarify why you're standing in the room your in.

Most of all, be willing to take a stand for justice for all people... even the ones outside your own world view.

I was listening to Toad the Wet Sprocket's "Amnesia" on the way to church this morning:

The final solution’s back in style
We are the ones letting it ride
I never knew we were so blind
Amnesia in comfort, so unkind

Tell me
When they come for you
Who will there be to speak
And when they come for you
Who will there be left to speak for you?


Taken from poem written during the Holocaust:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_they_came...

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Well, I don't think most gay people 'advocate' for gay people.... :confused:

I do think that you don't have to prove or justify anything to your mother. You can be respectful and assert yourself at the same time. I know it's easier in some cultures than others, but it CAN be done.

Likewise, gay people don't have to prove or justify anything to anyone else. It's cool that you're willing to open yourself, I suppose. At the same time, I'm not sure what you're asking for.

At any rate, since this all 'started' with the happiest day of my life (and yes, it really was) I feel like I should have a bon mot or bit of wisdom, being the original pariah that she's finding disgusting. Instead, I'll cut a clip of the Plato read at the service.... from Aristophanes' speech in the Symposium:

Let no one oppose love. For if we are friends of all beings and at peace we shall find our own true loves. If our loves were perfectly accomplished, and each one returning to her primeval nature had her original true love, then our race would be happy.

Really, that's all it's about. Just that, and no more: letting yourself love, and letting love make you happy.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Whoa I didn't know your were from another country. I suppose it would be a hard culteral thing involved. I hope things get better....

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Also....?

And I mean this with all respect.......


....I would have appriciated not knowing the 'cause' of this.

As detached as I know I should feel, knowing it's her issues and not my own...... I'm feeling right now like I was stabbed in the gut with a knife made of ice.

I think if anyone else had the news of their wedding, and presumably pictures, up, and it it announced that these caused disgust and family dissent.... they'd understand. Obviously, this won't happen to hardly anyone else, but they can vouch for the..... sacredness and joy of those memories.

Well, I've had to run to the toilet retching a few times, is the thing.

I have a hard enough time, I get a lot of harassment on the streets and in stores.... it's been a tremendous amount, lately, for whatever reason. Understand that posting pictures was an act that I did because they were requested and because I wanted to share my joy, but it was also an act that made me feel extremely vulnerable. Simply put..... I would have appreciated a little tact here.

Just FYI, if you're ever in a situation like this again..... perhaps asking for the input while being a little more general about the cause other than 'you and your beloved and your sacred union caused my mom disgust'.... would be wisest.

No hard feelings, don't think that there are.... I know you mean well. Hopefully, you can understand my POV here as well.

[TCJohnson]

Only thing i have to add is that I really respect Sgt. Fuzzy for his honesty. I mean that sincerely.

[mgs]

Please also tell your mom that she is of a dying breed and one day will be a relic of the days of yore.

I don't believe that. People will always have their differing opinions on things. Right or wrong. I think your statement is a false hope.

[TCJohnson]

Also....?

And I mean this with all respect.......


....I would have appriciated not knowing the 'cause' of this.

As detached as I know I should feel, knowing it's her issues and not my own...... I'm feeling right now like I was stabbed in the gut with a knife made of ice.

I think if anyone else had the news of their wedding, and presumably pictures, up, and it it announced that these caused disgust and family dissent.... they'd understand. Obviously, this won't happen to hardly anyone else, but they can vouch for the..... sacredness and joy of those memories.

Well, I've had to run to the toilet retching a few times, is the thing.

I have a hard enough time, I get a lot of harassment on the streets and in stores.... it's been a tremendous amount, lately, for whatever reason. And..... I would have appreciated a little tact here.

Just FYI, if you're ever in a situation like this again..... perhaps asking for the input while being a little more general about the cause other than 'you and your beloved and your sacred union caused my mom disgust'.... would be wisest.

No hard feelings, don't think that there are.... I know you mean well. Hopefully, you can understand my POV here as well.


Yeah, well, there will always be people who hate you because of who you are. And I think everybody on this board can say the same. To that I say:

Wherever you go, you'll never know why somebody may hate you.
People as such don't mean as much as those who appreciate you.
--Death of Groo.

[Corrina]

Consider it a ray of hope, Maxine.

It has been bad and I cannot truly say I know how hard it is for you but here's a young man, only 16, from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful and he came to YABS and it's made him less disapproving and more interested in learning about how to get past this.

It is probably not easy to see but that's what hearing about your joy did for him--it lessened that disapproval and drove him to learn.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Yeah, well, there will always be people who hate you because of who you are. And I think everybody on this board can say the same. To that I say:

Wherever you go, you'll never know why somebody may hate you.
People as such don't mean as much as those who appreciate you.
--Death of Groo.

Well, I know why they do.

Often, they're pretty good at telling me. ^.~

Not sure that 'everyone' is in the same boat, but the sentiment is appreciated. :wink:

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Consider it a ray of hope, Maxine.

It has been bad and I cannot truly say I know how hard it is for you but here's a young man, only 16, from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful and he came to YABS and it's made him less disapproving and more interested in learning about how to get past this.

It is probably not easy to see but that's what hearing about your joy did for him--it lessened that disapproval and drove him to learn.

Honestly, Corrina, the only reason I posted that was in hopes that next time, perhaps he or someone else may generalize the cause of an issue, when the effect is what's germaine. For instance, 'My mom looked over my shoulder, and came to understand there are gay people on the board' would have been more neutral, and just as effective for talking about one's family issues, and one's personal journey of understanding.

I bear no ill will! Really!

And you're right.... it is a ray of hope.

[TCJohnson]

Not sure that 'everyone' is in the same boat, but the sentiment is appreciated. :wink:


Well, not in the same boat although in A boat. I've experienced bigotry although what I experienced would be a canoe to other's garbage barge, if that makes sense.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Well, not in the same boat although in A boat. I've experienced bigotry although what I experienced would be a canoe to other's garbage barge, if that makes sense.

Gotcha. No use in comparing. No worries. :biggrin:

[Sabrinaset]

Not sure that 'everyone' is in the same boat, but the sentiment is appreciated. :wink:


Here's the boat I'm on:

http://www.monacaron.com/~mona/images/large/titanic-sinking.jpg

[TCJohnson]

Here's the boat I'm on:

Yeah, but that is only because they let you at the helm. "Ooooooooooooooooh, something shiny over there!"

[stamen]

Just FYI, if you're ever in a situation like this again..... perhaps asking for the input while being a little more general about the cause other than 'you and your beloved and your sacred union caused my mom disgust'.... would be wisest.

No hard feelings, don't think that there are.... I know you mean well. Hopefully, you can understand my POV here as well.

I think getting that out of your system is a good thing, really. I think being specific was a good thing for Fuzzy. It basically opened the door for you to share what you just did and it gives Fuzzy (maybe even his mom) an opportunity to see that these issues aren't just ideological, but they involve real people with real feelings. If he hadn't been specific, then maybe an opportunity to experience the specific emotions attached to his situation would have been missed.

I'm not going to say what you ought to feel and when you ought to feel it... but maybe there is a silver lining here someplace?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I think getting that out of your system is a good thing, really. I think being specific was a good thing for Fuzzy. It basically opened the door for you to share what you just did and it gives Fuzzy (maybe even his mom) an opportunity to see that these issues aren't just ideological, but they involve real people with real feelings. If he hadn't been specific, then maybe an opportunity to experience the specific emotions attached to his situation would have been missed.

I'm not going to say what you ought to feel and when you ought to feel it... but maybe there is a silver lining here someplace?

Yeah, you're right. TC's right. Corrina's right. Sabrina's...... funny.

There's a lot of good to be had here.

[Ben Morgan]

Though you can use the internet to purchase a copy of The Cay.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e1/The_Cay_cover.jpg
What does this have to do with Cayman?

[beetlebum]

Only thing i have to add is that I really respect Sgt. Fuzzy for his honesty. I mean that sincerely.

I feel the same way.

Consider it a ray of hope, Maxine.

It has been bad and I cannot truly say I know how hard it is for you but here's a young man, only 16, from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful and he came to YABS and it's made him less disapproving and more interested in learning about how to get past this.

It is probably not easy to see but that's what hearing about your joy did for him--it lessened that disapproval and drove him to learn.

I second this.

And Sgt. Fuzzy, I know where you're coming from. I used to have that type of attitude towards homosexuality. It took awhile, but I eventually became more open to, and fully embrace the concept of same sex love.

It helps of course, that I fancy girls (as I'm bi myself.)

I still, however, have not talked to my mum about my sexuality--as I'm still waiting for the right words to say (I don't think my mother is homophobic, I just don't think that she "gets" the concept of same sex love.)

Coming onto YABS did help, as I discovered a place where I was free to be myself. You have no idea how great it is to find like minded souls, and to feel liberated.

Fuzzy; I'll open up my pm box and allow you to be the 37th person to pm me if you have any questions.

And Max; I agree. It is good that you got that out of your system. After all of the crap you've been through in life; it's understandable that you would feel the way you do.

In the meanwhile, I say Godspeed with this, and life in general.

[Samurai]

Consider it a ray of hope, Maxine.

It has been bad and I cannot truly say I know how hard it is for you but here's a young man, only 16, from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful and he came to YABS and it's made him less disapproving and more interested in learning about how to get past this.

It is probably not easy to see but that's what hearing about your joy did for him--it lessened that disapproval and drove him to learn.

You just called the entire Singaporean culture "hateful"...

[CutterMike]

What does this have to do with Cayman?
There are Cay men on this forum...?

I am shocked... SHOCKED it tell you!

[Tommy]

Ultimately my belief is that all the progress homosexuals have made in the past fifty years (actually more but that's a dull history lesson) is due to being open and changing one person's opinion at a time. And I think anyone willing to "do their share" by choosing to educate themselves should be applauded.

[section 8]

You just called the entire Singaporean culture "hateful"...

Corrina was addressing the culture's attitude towards homosexuality in general.
Though i am sure there are exceptions, that isn't an entirely inaccurate statement.

[beetlebum]

Corrina was addressing the culture's attitude towards homosexuality in general.
Though i am sure there are exceptions, that isn't an entirely inaccurate statement.

Leave it up to Samurai to misconstrue someone else's statement.

It's why I no longer have any respect for him, and I choose to longer address him.

I guess I just don't fancy mine much when it comes to liars.

[sk716]

And this brings up what I got a phone call about this morning.

A little backstory: A month or so ago my 14 year old 3rd cousin moved from New Mexico to live with my brother and his three teenage sons. Without going into any detail, they had a lot of family problems and my teenage cousin, Tony, asked to come and live with my brother and nephews.

Tony has since integrated himself into the family and "extended" family. My best friend, Aaron, is a gay man. He and my mother are very close, he's the gay son she always wanted. As such he's also very close to my nephews and Tony now as well.

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

He went off on a tear at one point demanding to know what was so wrong with homosexuals being able to foster children, "What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"

Side note of the manners and style thing, when Tony arrived, he displayed zero in the way of table manners, etc., between my nephews and my friend, Tony is now acceptable in restaurants and his clothes are starting to match.

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.

He's 14 years old and his first exposure to any homosexuals has been Aaron, Aaron's roommate, Steph, and I, and he's really pissed about this great injustice he has discovered in society. I expect he'll convince Aaron to take him to lurk around the River Market so he can bother homophobes more regularly in the future.

[Crowley]

And this brings up what I got a phone call about this morning.

A little backstory: A month or so ago my 14 year old 3rd cousin moved from New Mexico to live with my brother and his three teenage sons. Without going into any detail, they had a lot of family problems and my teenage cousin, Tony, asked to come and live with my brother and nephews.

Tony has since integrated himself into the family and "extended" family. My best friend, Aaron, is a gay man. He and my mother are very close, he's the gay son she always wanted. As such he's also very close to my nephews and Tony now as well.

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

He went off on a tear at one point demanding to know what was so wrong with homosexuals being able to foster children, "What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"

Side note of the manners and style thing, when Tony arrived, he displayed zero in the way of table manners, etc., between my nephews and my friend, Tony is now acceptable in restaurants and his clothes are starting to match.

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.

He's 14 years old and his first exposure to any homosexuals has been Aaron, Aaron's roommate, Steph, and I, and he's really pissed about this great injustice he has discovered in society. I expect he'll convince Aaron to take him to lurk around the River Market so he can bother homophobes more regularly in the future.
There's a good kid... I hope you guys spoil him rotten.

[Corrina]

Yeah, you're right. TC's right. Corrina's right. Sabrina's...... funny.

There's a lot of good to be had here.

Well, I wasn't trying to be right, just offering a positive that could be found in the situation because I wanted you to feel better.

[Spike-X]

You just called the entire Singaporean culture "hateful"...
Nice try, Davros.

[Corrina]

Corrina was addressing the culture's attitude towards homosexuality in general.
Though i am sure there are exceptions, that isn't an entirely inaccurate statement.

Yes, the attitude toward homosexuality. I thought the context was clear but it's possible it wasn't.

It's also possible that Samurai was trying to have a dig at me for the stuff in Mega Political thread.

[Spike-X]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

Mate, at least you're trying to overcome this, which is more than most people ever do. Good on you for that.

Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people.

Why is that? Is she afraid it's contagious?

I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will.

What do you mean by 'advocate'?

From Dictionary.com:

–verb (used with object) 1.to speak or write in favor of; support or urge by argument; recommend publicly: He advocated higher salaries for teachers.
It makes it sound like you'd be recommending that people become homosexual, thus implying it's a choice. Which it ain't. I'm not trying to pick on you here, just curious as to your word choice.

But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

How very loving and Christian of her.

[Spike-X]

Yes, the attitude toward homosexuality. I thought the context was clear but it's possible it wasn't.

It was perfectly clear. Just another pathetic attempt at "Look! They're the real bigots!"

And it's getting really old.

[Spike-X]

And this brings up what I got a phone call about this morning.

A little backstory: A month or so ago my 14 year old 3rd cousin moved from New Mexico to live with my brother and his three teenage sons. Without going into any detail, they had a lot of family problems and my teenage cousin, Tony, asked to come and live with my brother and nephews.

Tony has since integrated himself into the family and "extended" family. My best friend, Aaron, is a gay man. He and my mother are very close, he's the gay son she always wanted. As such he's also very close to my nephews and Tony now as well.

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

He went off on a tear at one point demanding to know what was so wrong with homosexuals being able to foster children, "What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"

Side note of the manners and style thing, when Tony arrived, he displayed zero in the way of table manners, etc., between my nephews and my friend, Tony is now acceptable in restaurants and his clothes are starting to match.

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.

He's 14 years old and his first exposure to any homosexuals has been Aaron, Aaron's roommate, Steph, and I, and he's really pissed about this great injustice he has discovered in society. I expect he'll convince Aaron to take him to lurk around the River Market so he can bother homophobes more regularly in the future.
That's awesome. Good on him.

[Sabrinaset]

Yes, the attitude toward homosexuality. I thought the context was clear but it's possible it wasn't.

It's also possible that Samurai was trying to have a dig at me for the stuff in Mega Political thread.

I suppose from a technical standpoint, you could have posted it as "from a culture that is very disapproving and hateful towards gays" just to make it airtight, but still ...

Sam ... you knew what she meant, and you're being obtuse.

[sk716]

There's a good kid... I hope you guys spoil him rotten.

Aaron and his roommate have already been working on that. My youngest nephew is in Hot Springs with me for the summer, and the older two have jobs so Tony is benefiting from being the only one home and getting doubly spoiled. The roommate bought him a weight set when he complained about being the scrawny one and wanted to buff up so he could play football.

I expect Tony will have just about every possession he could want by the time Jake gets home.

[Corrina]

Ah, no need to argue in this thread. Sgt. Fuzzy is trying to learn tolerance, he doesn't need us bringing in baggage from another thread.

And, if I didn't say it before, Sgt. Fuzzy, I think it is a good thing, what you're doing, to learn more and not accept hatred blindly.

[section 8]

"What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"



that should be on a T-shirt as well.

people like that clearly have no regard for the rights of homosexuals, or the welfare of the children in our already overwhelmed foster care system.
there are not enough foster parents, and the few homosexuals i do know would make great parents (not just foster)

[WhiteRose]

Ah Fuzzy, if you want questions answered then my PM box is always open. That goes the same for anyone else.

[bert]

hmm. . my rational, well mannered first post, (way back on the first page). . got completely glossed over.

oh well. . I still think if he posts the questions in the thread, he'll get different responses from many of the gay/lesbian/bi/trans folks on this forum, and that's the best way to go.

and Maxie. . I know it's hard, but as others have said, *HE* doesn't have that attitude towards, you, and Fuzzy knows you.

it's all about educating those who don't know us. . and that's what Fuzzy is asking for help with.

hugs.

[Matt Algren]

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.
http://www.zazzle.com/i_love_my_gay_dad_shirt-235619478661222276

[Charles RB]

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

Damn!

What a guy.

[beetlebum]

Yeah, but that is only because they let you at the helm. "Ooooooooooooooooh, something shiny over there!"

LMAO cos it's so true. :evilsmile: :biggrin:

*Hides from Ninja Kris*

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Well, I wasn't trying to be right, just offering a positive that could be found in the situation because I wanted you to feel better.

Thank you, Corrina. You managed both. :biggrin:

[Jack Zodiac]

The truth is, no one is the same person at 26 that they are at 16.

Honestly, most people aren't even the same at twenty as they were at sixteen.

And with the Internet, and instant global communication, lots of people are in for immediate culture shocks. In Singapore, Fuzz might not know a lot of openly gay people, but there are lots and lots of openly gay people here at YABS, and at CBR, and on the Internet in general. In my experience, the Internet is a predominantly Western, liberal "place." Certainly the free exchange of ideas allows for both sides of any argument to be heard, but I'm of the opinion that the Internet has a lot more voices on the left. And it's great to see somebody exposed to that and try to be accepting of it than becoming just another loud, dissenting voice.

You're a good man, Fuzz.

[Michael P]

The truth is, no one is the same person at 26 that they are at 16.

And as a man of 26, let me say "Thank God."

[BnL]

*Hugs Maxie* Your feelings are perfectly justified and understandable. And just so you know, your wedding photos were beautiful, and they definitely put a smile on my face. And I know I'm far from being the only one who is so happy for you, too. :smile:

Sgt. Fuzzy, add me to the list of folks who'd be happy to answer any questions you may have.

[Cam63]

There's a good kid... I hope you guys spoil him rotten.

Aye to that.

[Cam63]

It was perfectly clear. Just another pathetic attempt at "Look! They're the real bigots!"

And it's getting really old.

I don't think Sam's convinced too many.

[Charles RB]

I don't think Sam's convinced too many.

He's convinced me that we need to exterminate the Thals.

[Nick Soapdish]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.

I don't think that I have any special insights into this topic. I just wanted to applaud you for your open-mindedness in trying to learn more about the topic whether it changes your views or not (although I'm hoping for the former).

When I was your age, I was homophobic and uncomfortable around gays as well. And I can't really blame my family or faith or anything except maybe tangentially. We never really talked about it so I just didn't know about it and was uncomfortable. It took me a couple more years to realize that maybe I should learn more.

[Cam63]

He's convinced me that we need to exterminate the Thals.

Well, they had it comin'.

[TCJohnson]

He's convinced me that we need to exterminate the Thals.

Death to the blondes!

: eyes Bree :

[Sally Sensational]

I got major giggles from the Tony story when Shel told me earlier, too. I imagine he'll have the shirt he wants pretty soon - even if we have to make him one.

*Fuzzy, as someone who is both a member of the LGBT community and was brought up by very conservative parents who aren't exactly tolerant of "alternative" lifestyles, I applaud your attempts to educate yourself. Like just about everyone else here, I would be happy to answer any questions you want to direct to me. I'm also a high school teacher, so I'm used to answering unusual questions from teenagers! :smile:

Remember also, that you don't have to necessarily support what someone does to tolerate them, love them, or learn from them. To give a personal example, my brother and sister-in-law homeschool their children so that they are not "exposed to the evils of this world". I don't support their decision. But that doesn't mean I don't love them any less.

*Stamen, I want to go to YOUR church!

*To everyone concerned about Fuzzy's use of the word "advocate", please remember that we are dealing with a language transition here.

[Sabrinaset]

Didn't the last of the Thals die when Blue Beetle was killed?

[Sally Sensational]

He's convinced me that we need to exterminate the Thals.

What's a Thal?

asks the blonde.

[Charles RB]

What's a Thal?

asks the blonde.


These guys. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thal_%28Doctor_Who%29)

Basically a nod-back to Spike calling him Davros.

[Spike-X]

*To everyone concerned about Fuzzy's use of the word "advocate", please remember that we are dealing with a language transition here.

I think that was mostly me. And yeah, I took that into consideration. I hope it didn't come across like I was hammering him about it.

[TCJohnson]

What's a Thal?

asks the blonde.

An alien race in Doctor who. They were the sworn enemies of another race called the Daleks who major baddies on the show.

The Thals look basically human and they are all blonde.

[beetlebum]

Death to the blondes!

: eyes Bree :

Not all of them!

(Save Kristen Bell and Blake Lively for me....:evilsmile: )

But as for the rest; eh *waves hands*

:wink: :biggrin:

[Sally Sensational]

But as for the rest; eh *waves hands*

:wink: :biggrin:

Thanks, Beeb. I'll remember that when the blond revolution comes!

[beetlebum]

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/StephanieInsiensingmay/plottingsmiley.gif

http://media.bigoo.ws/content/smile/signs/signs_153.gif

[Dazzler]

When I was 16, I was infinitely more homophobic than anything Sgt. Fuzzy could hope to claim.

Now, not so much. :tongue:

It's amazing how time and perspective can change you. Give it a couple of years until you're fully able to look at the world through your own eyes instead of having your mother's filters constantly nearby and you may just find yourself looking back at your opinions now with a little bit of embarrassed nostalgia.

That's a good thing.

--Dazz

[Gilda Dent]

And this brings up what I got a phone call about this morning.

A little backstory: A month or so ago my 14 year old 3rd cousin moved from New Mexico to live with my brother and his three teenage sons. Without going into any detail, they had a lot of family problems and my teenage cousin, Tony, asked to come and live with my brother and nephews.

Tony has since integrated himself into the family and "extended" family. My best friend, Aaron, is a gay man. He and my mother are very close, he's the gay son she always wanted. As such he's also very close to my nephews and Tony now as well.

Yesterday morning, Aaron and his lesbian roommate took Tony up to the River Market to do a little shopping. The three of them walked past a woman with a petition who stopped them and asked them to sign her petition to prevent single individuals and homosexuals from being foster parents in the state of Arkansas. She was quickly informed that she was talking to a gay man and a lesbian and politely given a different perspective. Aaron and his roommate walked on. Tony didn't. He announced as loudly as was polite that he loved his gay dad. Then proceeded to follow the woman around the rest of the morning telling anyone she tried to get to sign her petition that homosexuals were really cool people and shouldn't be treated differently. He also asked her repeatedly if she knew any gay people while still insisting that he loved his gay daddy.

He went off on a tear at one point demanding to know what was so wrong with homosexuals being able to foster children, "What are they going to do? Love them? Care for them? Teach them manners and a little style?"

Side note of the manners and style thing, when Tony arrived, he displayed zero in the way of table manners, etc., between my nephews and my friend, Tony is now acceptable in restaurants and his clothes are starting to match.

Now, Tony is demanding a t-shirt that says "I love my Gay Dad" and refers to Aaron as his gay dad.

He's 14 years old and his first exposure to any homosexuals has been Aaron, Aaron's roommate, Steph, and I, and he's really pissed about this great injustice he has discovered in society. I expect he'll convince Aaron to take him to lurk around the River Market so he can bother homophobes more regularly in the future.

I want to borrow Tony and introduce him to our DCF caseworker. And our homeowner's association.

My brother and sister have been well trained. If someone comments disapprovingly regarding Emily and me, they generally say something to the effect of, "So take it up with them." Molly even cheerfully invites them over so they can say the hateful things directly to us.

The reaction that Fuzzy's mom had is the reason I don't post pictures of myself and didn't post any of my wedding. I'm pretty sure the regulars here wouldn't say anything insulting, but the regulars aren't the only posters, and there are always a good number of lurkers.

Sgt. Fuzzy, I'm a gay, transsexual Christian (Unitarian, not Methodist, though) and if you have any questions, feel free to PM if you like. Given how politely you worded your OP, though, I think you'd be safe asking your questions in the thread itself. It's only those who ask loaded or leading questions meant to advance an anti-gay agenda that get a bad reaction.

[Sabrinaset]

Thanks, Beeb. I'll remember that when the blond revolution comes!

To arms! Quick, someone grab SunshineGirl, light the torches, grab the pitchforks, and attack BeetleBum!

[Sgt. Fuzzy]

Wow, I go to bed, log back on a few hours later and I get quite the amount of replies. o_O

Honestly, Maxine, I'm so sorry, I honestly didn't intend to make you feel that way. I wasn't thinking. I should've known better. You're definitely justified at feeling that way, and if you're angry at/disappointed in me, well, I really don't blame you.

... Gosh, I feel terrible.

Anyway, thanks for being so open to me, people. I guess I might be messaging most of you throughout the course of my stay here, which is probably until Mom decides to take more drastic action. Which, hopefully, won't happen at all.

[TCJohnson]

When I was 16, I was infinitely more homophobic than anything Sgt. Fuzzy could hope to claim.

Now, not so much. :tongue:

It's amazing how time and perspective can change you. Give it a couple of years until you're fully able to look at the world through your own eyes instead of having your mother's filters constantly nearby and you may just find yourself looking back at your opinions now with a little bit of embarrassed nostalgia.

That's a good thing.

--Dazz

When I was in high school, I used to use the word gay and fag as insults...usually funny insults with people I was just joking around with. Never really gave them much thought. Never really hated gay people, they were just different so you made fun of them. : shrugh :

In college I was working with this guy named Dana. I was talking about some girl and I said to him, "Like you wouldn't sleep with her if you had a chance." Dana just said to me, "Terry, I'm gay!" (turns out other than his boyfriend and some very close friends, that was the first time Dana told anybody he was gay.)

I thought about it...I liked Dana before he said that, and nothing about Dana had changed so I decided it didn't really matter to me. That was the end of any homophobia I had.

Edit: By the way, Dana also said one of the funniest things he ever saw was the look on my face when he told me he was gay. It was the end of my shift and I was just like, "Oh. I...I...I gotta go!"

The next shift he asked me if I had a problem with him being gay, and I said, "Nah, I was just really embarrassed what I said and that I was making assumptions."

[beetlebum]

To arms! Quick, someone grab SunshineGirl, light the torches, grab the pitchforks, and attack BeetleBum!

Attacked by an army of hot blondes?!

*Feigns fear* Oh yeah, that's erm, terrible.....

(Ignore the fact that TC launched the first volley...)

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff107/StephanieInsiensingmay/ATTAAACK_emote___by_meee_by_planetG.png

:evilsmile:

And Sgt., I'm sure that Maxine knows that you meant will. Still, good on you for apologising.

I also hope that your mother does not take any drastic measures, as we would hate to lose you.

Your presence here is valued.

And I should add I am an intricisist as well (Christian). I am non-denominational, though I do consider myself a member of the overall ecclesiastical body.

Feel free to pm me, as well. :smile:

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Wow, I go to bed, log back on a few hours later and I get quite the amount of replies. o_O

Honestly, Maxine, I'm so sorry, I honestly didn't intend to make you feel that way. I wasn't thinking. I should've known better. You're definitely justified at feeling that way, and if you're angry at/disappointed in me, well, I really don't blame you.

... Gosh, I feel terrible.

Anyway, thanks for being so open to me, people. I guess I might be messaging most of you throughout the course of my stay here, which is probably until Mom decides to take more drastic action. Which, hopefully, won't happen at all.

No, I'm not angry. I know you meant no harm. S'okay.

[MacQuarrie]

Fuzzy, if you want to, you can mention to your mom that I'm long-time member of this forum, a Christian, almost 50, a father of three (ages 12, 18, and 21), a Sunday School teacher, former youth group leader, elder in my church (Assemblies of God), and I think she really has nothing to worry about.

Yes, there are gay people here. But so what? The Bible tells us to love our neighbor, not to judge them. Jesus goes to a lot of trouble to hammer that point home with his stories about Samaritans (considered low-life gutter trash by the "good upstanding" Pharisees) and hanging out with boozers and hookers.

If it makes her feel better about it, tell her you consider YABS a mission field. You're here to help show the light of Christ and share the Gospel among people who otherwise would have very little positive contact with Christians. We are supposed to be "in the world but not of it"; we're not supposed to shut ourselves away from the world. How can they hear of the love of God if somebody doesn't tell them? In order to tell them, you have to talk to them, right?

If you or she wishes to discuss the topic privately feel, free to email me at jim@jimmacq.com or fire off a PM.

[Samurai]

Fuzzy, if you want to, you can mention to your mom that I'm long-time member of this forum, a Christian, almost 50, a father of three (ages 12, 18, and 21), a Sunday School teacher, former youth group leader, elder in my church (Assemblies of God), and I think she really has nothing to worry about.

Yes, there are gay people here. But so what? The Bible tells us to love our neighbor, not to judge them. Jesus goes to a lot of trouble to hammer that point home with his stories about Samaritans (considered low-life gutter trash by the "good upstanding" Pharisees) and hanging out with boozers and hookers.

If it makes her feel better about it, tell her you consider YABS a mission field. You're here to help show the light of Christ and share the Gospel among people who otherwise would have very little positive contact with Christians. We are supposed to be "in the world but not of it"; we're not supposed to shut ourselves away from the world. How can they hear of the love of God if somebody doesn't tell them? In order to tell them, you have to talk to them, right?

If you or she wishes to discuss the topic privately feel, free to email me at jim@jimmacq.com or fire off a PM.

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

[Sabrinaset]

Sam ... are you trying to piss everyone here off?

[beetlebum]

Good God. There are some people on this website whose actions are just the epitome of the word reprehensible.

Sod that one for a lark.

[section 8]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

well i'm sure it wouldn't be appreciated.
And rightfully so, how would you feel if the gay posters on this board tried to convert you?

[Samurai]

well i'm sure it wouldn't be appreciated.
And rightfully so, how would you feel if the gay posters on this board tried to convert you?

The Lesbians already have converted me... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

[Gilda Dent]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

Many of the gay folk around here are Christians and have already welcomed the words of Jesus into our lives.

[section 8]

The Lesbians already have converted me... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

LOL Me too, the operation is next week

[Samurai]

Sam ... are you trying to piss everyone here off?

Just pointing out that if Fuzzy tells his mom he's just posting here to try and convert people, he should be very careful about actually trying to do that.

His mom may ask "So, have any seen the light yet?"

"No mom, not yet..."

"Well, tell them this, this, and this..."

I mean, I want to make sure he understands that Mac is basically telling him to lie to his mom about what he's doing here, NOT suggesting that he actually try doing that as a way to stick around.

[Nick Soapdish]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

Interesting that Mac's post doesn't include your quotation. He's just suggesting that Fuzzy be a good Christian and set a good example. Getting in somebody's face or going door-to-door isn't the only way to spread the faith.

IMO, the best way is to simply let them see that Christians are usually good people and fun to be around. Let them come to you with questions.

ETA: That's not the best way. It's my preferred way and probably the most passive way, but the best way is probably something in the middle. Don't constantly talk about your faith, but be open about it and do bring it up yourself at times. Don't be doing it to convert, but to inform.

[Samurai]

Interesting that Mac's post doesn't include your quotation. He's just suggesting that Fuzzy be a good Christian and set a good example. Getting in somebody's face or going door-to-door isn't the only way to spread the faith.

IMO, the best way is to simply let them see that Christians are usually good people and fun to be around. Let them come to you with questions.

I wasn't quoting Mac, I put in the quote marks lest something think those are my own thoughts on the subject. It is done all the time.

Not religious myself, but doesn't being on a "mission" (that was Mac's word) constitute more than just hanging around with folks hoping they might ask you questions about faith? I've always understood a "mission" to be a more active form of proselytizing.

[Nick Soapdish]

I wasn't quoting Mac, I put in the quote marks lest something think those are my own thoughts on the subject. It is done all the time.

Not religious myself, but doesn't being on a "mission" (that was Mac's word) constitute more than just hanging around with folks hoping they might ask you questions about faith? I've always understood a "mission" to be a more active form of proselytizing.

Yeah, I just corrected that. But it doesn't have to be in-your-face and I hate that that has to even be said.

[CutterMike]

It fascinates me how people who often claim to be "misinterpreted" and "quoted out of context" can so completely twist a straightforward statement into a pretzel just to make a spurious point.

Gah!:mad:

[Spike-X]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...
Samurai, just for once, do you think you could maybe just give it a fucking rest?

[Nick Soapdish]

Can we take this part to another thread?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

The reaction that Fuzzy's mom had is the reason I don't post pictures of myself and didn't post any of my wedding. I'm pretty sure the regulars here wouldn't say anything insulting, but the regulars aren't the only posters, and there are always a good number of lurkers.

Well, it's not the wedding part that's vulnerable making for me.

It's the 'ugly day' feelings, when nothing looks right, and nothing CAN look right, and I'd just as soon not face the world. And it's the double scrutiny of a gaze upon us, looking for 'faults' or 'clues', that cultural fascination with dissecting how we look as if it finding fault would be a balm for the discomforts gender nonconformity stirs in most of us.

(It those who think that random verbal humiliations are a prelude to me putting out for them that I've been contending with most recently. THAT I don't understand one bit.)


Or announcing the faults found to all within earshot, as bane against the same nonconformity. Me, at my height alone, I'll probably always have to withstand that. It's the rooting out of the shame associated with it that is, for me, the work I need to do for myself. That, and finding joy in the person I am.

As someone who believes in reincarnation, I've come to understand that in this life, I'm to learn lessons about personal dignity and grace under pressure.

As you can see, I've got a long way to go. :P

At any rate, as people send more pictures of the wedding to me, I'll share 'em if people still wanna see.

[Gilda Dent]

Well, it's not the wedding part that's vulnerable making for me.

It's the 'ugly day' feelings, when nothing looks right, and nothing CAN look right, and I'd just as soon not face the world. And it's the double scrutiny of a gaze upon us, looking for 'faults' or 'clues', that cultural fascination with dissecting how we look as if it finding fault would be a balm for the discomforts gender nonconformity stirs in most of us.

Or announcing the faults found to all within earshot, as bane against the same nonconformity. Me, at my height alone, I'll probably always have to withstand that. It's the rooting out of the shame associated with it that is, for me, the work I need to do for myself. That, and finding joy in the person I am.

As someone who believes in reincarnation, I've come to understand that in this life, I'm to learn lessons about personal dignity and grace under pressure.

As you can see, I've got a long way to go. :P

At any rate, as people send more pictures to me, I'll share 'em if people still wanna see.

I can empathize with the "ugly day" thing. Just about any picture of me seems to bring out the flaws. The days I feel pretty are a rarity. I'm working on the whole balancing act of presenting my best self while not caring what others think, which has some seriously conflicting elements to it, emotionally at least. The "indifferent day", when I can manage it, is a good one.

Part of it is also that I'm stealth at work and most places other than with immediate family; out about my orientation but not so much the trans thing, and I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian. I don't want to take chances. Maybe in another two years when I have tenure.

You were lovely in your wedding pictures, by the way.

[Spike-X]

I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian.

It's disgraceful that, in the 21st century, you still need to worry about stuff like this.

[kitty_tc_69]

Samurai, just for once, do you think you could maybe just give it a fucking rest?

I'd suggest seppuku. :tongue:

[beetlebum]

Gilda, I can sympathise with the way you feel.

I don't use my real name online--as the sobriquets I've established for myself are a combination of my first name, and slightly abrogated spellings of a few of my relatives last names.

I also do not have any pictures of myself online, as I just don't feel comfortable posting them (yet.)

I've had members of my family stalked, and I just don't want the same thing to happen to me.

And Max; Gilda; that sucks that you've had to endure the harsh pejoratives that people have hurled your way. That's awful.

But I've seen pictures of you Max, and you're not ugly by any means. I've yet to see a picture of you Gilda, but I'm sure that what I've said about Max can be applied to you as well. :smile:

[Alex L]

I can empathize with the "ugly day" thing. Just about any picture of me seems to bring out the flaws. The days I feel pretty are a rarity. I'm working on the whole balancing act of presenting my best self while not caring what others think, which has some seriously conflicting elements to it, emotionally at least. The "indifferent day", when I can manage it, is a good one.

Part of it is also that I'm stealth at work and most places other than with immediate family; out about my orientation but not so much the trans thing, and I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian. I don't want to take chances. Maybe in another two years when I have tenure.

You were lovely in your wedding pictures, by the way.

That's terrible to hear, Gilda.

I really have nothing to contribute to this thread. I was born and raised in a very gay-friendly city, so I haven't seen the kinds of homophobia and discrimination many of you have seen throughout your lives.

It is interesting for me to hear about, though.

[MacQuarrie]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...
Depends on how you define "share the gospel".

I think a particularly effective way to do it is to try to be the most decent and compassionate person you can manage to be, and let people wonder what it is that makes you different, and then when they give you the opportunity to explain, do so in the most respectful, nonjudgmental way you can. In other words, the way the Jewish carpenter said to: by loving people, and by loving them, let the light of God shine through you so they can see it. I fail at this all the time, but it's what I've tried to do here every day for the last 13 years, and this is the very first time I've ever mentioned it so directly.

[MacQuarrie]

Just pointing out that if Fuzzy tells his mom he's just posting here to try and convert people, he should be very careful about actually trying to do that.

His mom may ask "So, have any seen the light yet?"

"No mom, not yet..."

"Well, tell them this, this, and this..."

I mean, I want to make sure he understands that Mac is basically telling him to lie to his mom about what he's doing here, NOT suggesting that he actually try doing that as a way to stick around.
1. I never said "try to convert." Most missionaries don't try to convert people. They try to minister to people, meet their needs, show them compassion, inform them about Christ and let them draw their own conclusions.

2. I most emphatically did not tell him to lie to his mom. I told him to get his mother to look at his presence here in a different way, and let her see his membership in this forum as a positive thing.

You might try approaching something (anything) in a non-confrontational way; you'll be surprised at the outcome. You may not know it, but there are in fact members of CBR who are Christians today because of conversations with people like me on these forums. At least one former Comm Forum participant received his first bible from me. There are many others here whose perceptions and attitudes about Christianity have been positively altered by interacting with the Christians here and discovering that we aren't all strident whackjobs bent on tallying up conversions or castigating people for sinning differently from us. Fuzzy could very easily engage in that same kind of conversational "relationship evangelism"... unless he falls into the trap of thinking that every conversation is a jousting match that has to have a winner.

[Samurai]

1. I never said "try to convert." Most missionaries don't try to convert people. They try to minister to people, meet their needs, show them compassion, inform them about Christ and let them draw their own conclusions.

2. I most emphatically did not tell him to lie to his mom. I told him to get his mother to look at his presence here in a different way, and let her see his membership in this forum as a positive thing.

You might try approaching something (anything) in a non-confrontational way; you'll be surprised at the outcome. You may not know it, but there are in fact members of CBR who are Christians today because of conversations with people like me on these forums. At least one former Comm Forum participant received his first bible from me. There are many others here whose perceptions and attitudes about Christianity have been positively altered by interacting with the Christians here and discovering that we aren't all strident whackjobs bent on tallying up conversions or castigating people for sinning differently from us. Fuzzy could very easily engage in that same kind of conversational "relationship evangelism"... unless he falls into the trap of thinking that every conversation is a jousting match that has to have a winner.
I've had plenty of non-confrontational conversations with Christians here. So often do I try to defend them from attacks by much more militant atheists and agnostics that I'm continually confused with being a Christian myself.

Easily the longest conversation I had on the subject was a long series of PMs with Theophilus in May of 2006. He asked me about my beliefs and world view as an agnostic, and I asked him his as a Christian. We had a great conversation, and I still have several of the PMs saved to this day.

I am actually a very calm, non-confrontational person in real life... it just seems like I'm confrontational here because people are constantly attacking me! People who approach me in a civil manner find a very different kind of Samurai than people who do nothing but attack and insult those they talk to.

However, let's be honest here. Most of the gay people here already belong to some religion, or they have no desire to. You don't want Fuzzy to stay so that he can share and spread his religious beliefs (the brand of Christianity he belongs to is the one that his mother raised him in, and is opposed to homosexuality), you want him to stay to become acclimated to gay people and to influence Fuzzy's beliefs away from what his parents have taught him. And Fuzzy seems open to that, though we (and Fuzzy) all know his mom wouldn't take kindly to that. You are advising him on how to fool his mom, because you know full well that, non-confrontational or not, his religious beliefs would NOT be popular around here, and the teaching would be pretty much 1 way, not an equal give and take.

Now, he may well have other things to contribute besides his religious beliefs. Maybe he collects comics, and could stress that this is a comic book forum to his mom. Or maybe he could talk about Singapore... it's food, culture, politics, current events, etc. I always enjoy hearing about the culture from other countries. But the brand of religion he belongs to will find no traction here, and if he tries, he will only be attacked for his efforts. I just want to warn him of that... if he belonged to a church that is open and welcoming of homosexuality, yeah, he might find a slightly more receptive audience here, once he breaks past initial prejudices. Otherwise, either avoid the topic of how your religion feels about homosexuality, or grow some very thick skin to deal with the backlash...

[Red Jack]

Like a few others around here, surprise, surprise, I'm Christian. Methodist, to be exact. I'll start off with saying I've always been homophobic. Not radical or extreme in any way, but still, I'm semi-uncomfortable around gay people. I have to say I'm significantly more at ease with the idea of them after coming to YABS, but I still have my... insecurities.

I guess it's got to do with my family. We're pretty conservative. Which is to say, Mom didn't like the idea of me being in close proximity (which is wrong, technically, but you get the idea) to gay people. She didn't know at first, but she saw me looking through Maxine's wedding thread, and she put two and two together.

She hasn't outright stated that she doesn't want me coming to YABS any more, but she constantly asks me if I'm "still on that forum" whenever she sees me on the computer (and not long after I'm swiftly booted off), and gives me a disapproving look whenever I answer "yes".

I may make myself a lot of enemies by saying this now, but I don't advocate homosexuality, and I don't think I ever will. But I think my mom's being a bit irrational by thinking that gay people are repulsive (which she said today during family prayer).

It's sort of insensitive to ask this, but does anybody here mind if I PM or MSN them to ask them any questions regarding this topic? As in, homosexuality. I really want to prove to my mom that gay people aren't different from us at all, and that YABS really is just a place for people to kick back, pour out their troubles, and have a laugh at the end of the day, homosexuality be damned.

Oh, and if this is offensive, mods, please remove. Thanks.

Well. The best way to get comfy with a group you're not sure of is to spend time with them. They usually turn out to be us after all.

I'm not sure this is a faith/not faith thing. I think it's a Parent's-leaning-on-kids-for-their-own-good thing. Obviously most here will disagree with your mom's outlook and, I think, on some level, you must also or you wouldn't be here feeling as you do.

If she's a bigot (and I'm pretty sure she is based on your description), you're stuck with that until you're old enough to get your own place and make your own arbitrary set of rules.

Your mom doesn't want you doing something on the 'net. Simple. You don't have to agree with it or even understand it but, while you are a child and living in her house, you have to suffer the weight of her decisions when they go against your own nature or interests. It's in the job description. you can try to skate around it but, if you get busted, it'll likely be worse than the original problem. My advice is always to play it- ahem- straight.

There are gay people in the world. Some of them are assholes and some of them are awesome, just like everybody else. Most are somewhere in between (also like most humans). It seems you see that and are inclined towards open-mindedness even if your own ethics (or whatever) lead you away from forming deep associations with "them." So, when you're out of your parents' house, feel free to associate freely.

Until then, you're kind of stuck, I'm afraid. Until you're on your own, parents can bring down the hammer in arbitrary ways and you have to eat it. But, of course, they only get to do that for a few years. Then you get to drive.

My feeling is, everyone is welcome here (though there are a few feuds) and everyone gets a say. Come as you please. Talk to whoever you want. learn. share your own views (understanding that they may spark something unintended) and, if your mom shuts it down, suck it up, bide your time and come back (if you want) when you're the boss.

it won't be long.

It's a big world and everybody- well, a lot of us in the West, anyway- gets to carve out their own piece.

Or Peace.

Depending.

[Charles RB]

I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian.

Jesus. That can't be legal, can it?

[BnL]

I am actually a very calm, non-confrontational person in real life... it just seems like I'm confrontational here because people are constantly attacking me! People who approach me in a civil manner find a very different kind of Samurai than people who do nothing but attack and insult those they talk to.

Bull. Most of the responses to the original post have been calm and welcoming of discussion. You, however, came into this thread with a confrontational mindset. This is not the thread for you to push your agenda.

[Spike-X]

What BnL said.

[bringthenoise]

Jesus. That can't be legal, can it?

Sadly, discrimination on the basis of sexuality is still legal in the majority of American states. Really, US employment law tends to suck on the whole. I mean, at-will employment - what the fuck?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Jesus. That can't be legal, can it?

Oh, yes it is. Not in every state, but in most 'I'm firing you because you're transgendered' would be something a boss could say legally, and without worrying about legal action.

I'm lucky. One of the last actions Grey Davis took before Arnold took over was to make it illegal to discriminate against me in this way in California. But before that, I could be and was fired because I'm transgendered. Well, okay; not fired, but forced into a significant demotion. At any rate we both know that laws don't always effect what REALLY goes down in the workplace.... I've been lucky with my last two jobs.)

That's what the fuss about the Employment Non-Discrimination Act that a.non and I link to in our signatures is about.

[Matt Algren]

Oh, yes it is.
On top of which, IIRC, Gilda wasn't 'fired' proper, they just didn't renew her contract.

[Cam63]

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

Do fuck off.

[Charles RB]

Oh, yes it is. Not in every state, but in most 'I'm firing you because you're transgendered' would be something a boss could say legally, and without worrying about legal action.

Fucking hell. How do they justify keeping that around?

[bringthenoise]

Fucking hell. How do they justify keeping that around?

A combination of subtle and not-so-subtle bigotry and screaming about free markets and how corporations should be allowed to do anything they want or else THE COMMUNISTS/TERRORISTS HAVE WON.

[Charles RB]

Do state rights get brought up as well?

[beetlebum]

A combination of subtle and not-so-subtle bigotry and screaming about free markets and how corporations should be allowed to do anything they want or else THE COMMUNISTS/TERRORISTS HAVE WON.

It's a combination of that, and the "claim" of States rights. (Though keep in mind that States rights are not always a bad thing--as the whole gay marriage affair in my State of California is a positive example of States rights.)

[bringthenoise]

Do state rights get brought up as well?

Beetlebum is psychic! Argh!

[Dreadstar]

While I believe Sgt. Fuzzy's mom is both incorrect and over-controlling of the situation, if I he's a minor and she makes the internet rules, then I'm afraid that's pretty much the final word in that house.

I *would* however consider MacQ's sage advice and offer to mediate.

Or he could just go behind her back and disrespect her wishes like the vast majority of kids in the U.S. today.

[Charles RB]

Or he could just go behind her back

That'd be my option.

[Typo Lad]

Part of it is also that I'm stealth at work and most places other than with immediate family; out about my orientation but not so much the trans thing, and I figure there's about a 50-50 chance my current job goes away if the wrong people find out, and the chance of someone running a search on my name and running into a picture of me here and things spreading to the wrong people scares me a bit. My last job went away because I was too open about being a lesbian. I don't want to take chances. Maybe in another two years when I have tenure.

Your last job went away not because you were too open, but because your employer was too closed-minded. The onus is on him. There is simply no reason you should not be able to have your spouse's photo on your desk, regardless of gender.

[MacQuarrie]

I've had plenty of non-confrontational conversations with Christians here. So often do I try to defend them from attacks by much more militant atheists and agnostics that I'm continually confused with being a Christian myself.

Easily the longest conversation I had on the subject was a long series of PMs with Theophilus in May of 2006. He asked me about my beliefs and world view as an agnostic, and I asked him his as a Christian. We had a great conversation, and I still have several of the PMs saved to this day.

I am actually a very calm, non-confrontational person in real life... it just seems like I'm confrontational here because people are constantly attacking me! People who approach me in a civil manner find a very different kind of Samurai than people who do nothing but attack and insult those they talk to.
One of the things I tell my kids is, "if everyone has a problem with you, maybe the problem is you, or the way you're dealing with people."

However, let's be honest here. Most of the gay people here already belong to some religion, or they have no desire to. You don't want Fuzzy to stay so that he can share and spread his religious beliefs (the brand of Christianity he belongs to is the one that his mother raised him in, and is opposed to homosexuality), you want him to stay to become acclimated to gay people and to influence Fuzzy's beliefs away from what his parents have taught him. And Fuzzy seems open to that, though we (and Fuzzy) all know his mom wouldn't take kindly to that. You are advising him on how to fool his mom, because you know full well that, non-confrontational or not, his religious beliefs would NOT be popular around here, and the teaching would be pretty much 1 way, not an equal give and take.
I don't want anything of the sort. I want him to stay because he is a contributing member of the forum and seems like an okay guy. His beliefs about gay people are entirely his concern, and I have no agenda one way or the other about homosexuality. As C. S. Lewis said, I will not criticize people for being wounded in battles I have not fought. I'm not gay, it's not my issue, and my orders from God are to love people, period, regardless of what they get up to when I'm not around.

Now, he may well have other things to contribute besides his religious beliefs. Maybe he collects comics, and could stress that this is a comic book forum to his mom. Or maybe he could talk about Singapore... it's food, culture, politics, current events, etc. I always enjoy hearing about the culture from other countries. But the brand of religion he belongs to will find no traction here, and if he tries, he will only be attacked for his efforts. I just want to warn him of that...
Again, that depends entirely upon the nature and quality of his "efforts". The point is, it's possible, and indeed desirable, for his mom to see that he's not coming here to defy her and be corrupted by this place and its people, but that this place gives him an opportunity to live out his Christian faith in "the real world", and an opportunity to test and thereby strengthen his beliefs. If his faith can't stand up to opposition and scrutiny, it isn't a faith worth having, in my seldom-humble opinion.

if he belonged to a church that is open and welcoming of homosexuality, yeah, he might find a slightly more receptive audience here, once he breaks past initial prejudices. Otherwise, either avoid the topic of how your religion feels about homosexuality, or grow some very thick skin to deal with the backlash...
Of he could just behave like a decent upstanding guy, the way a Christian would, and interact with people honestly and with respect, and make some friends. He might end up being somebody's only Christian friend, and may change that person's perception of Christianity or religion in general, and that person may go on to impact somebody else's life in some way. We don't know. We can't see the future, but we don't need to fear it.

By the way, my son isn't much older than Fuzzy. We've had similar conversations about his activity on the forums that interest him. I'm not talking out may ass here. I am a concerned and responsible parent myself, and I posted what I did to give Fuzzy some options to reassure his mom that this place is no threat to his faith.

[Dreadstar]

That'd be my option.

Different strokes. If my kid did and I found out, he'd be off the PC for a looooong looooong time. You play parental rebellion game you takes your chances. So go for it, I guess. No worse than me sneaking my dad's Playboy stash when I was his age. But I never had any illusions of the repercussions of being caught.

[The Beast Of Yucca Flats]

Your last job went away not because you were too open, but because your employer was too closed-minded. The onus is on him. There is simply no reason you should not be able to have your spouse's photo on your desk, regardless of gender.

What he said (and Corrina earlier, about the Sarge not just blindly giving in to hate).

And Shel's story was pretty cool, too.

[MacQuarrie]

Different strokes. If my kid did and I found out, he'd be off the PC for a looooong looooong time. You play parental rebellion game you takes your chances. So go for it, I guess. No worse than me sneaking my dad's Playboy stash when I was his age. But I never had any illusions of the repercussions of being caught.

That's the other thing I always tell my kids: "You must not only want what you want; you must also want everything that comes with it."

[Charles RB]

Different strokes. If my kid did and I found out, he'd be off the PC for a looooong looooong time.

True enough. You'd have to be sneaky, and that teaches a valuable lesson. Possibly.

[Corrina]

That's the other thing I always tell my kids: "You must not only want what you want; you must also want everything that comes with it."

When you choose an action, you also choose the consequences of that action.

Good advice, Mac.

[Sally Sensational]

I'm going to second what Mac has said about sometimes just being caring and compassionate is enough to be considered "witnessing" to a group of people. You don't have to openly proselytize to share your religious viewpoints.

Example: when I was in college, I hung with the freaks, geeks, and weirdos (that's what we called ourselves, it was not, to us, an insult). Most of them were not Christians, and some were, due to bad experiences, virulently anti-Christian. This was due in part to the practice of one of the Christian groups on campus randomly choosing anyone who looked different (smokers were particularly vulnerable to this tactic), walking up to them and informing them that they were going to hell. Needless to say, this did not leave my friends very apt to enjoy the company of Christians.

Long story short, my friends knew that I was a Christian. They would come to me with questions and I would answer them as best I could. They were willing to listen because my approach was simply to be a good friend, to love them, listen to them, and NOT get confrontational. It's not only possible, it works.

[Red Jack]

Different strokes. If my kid did and I found out, he'd be off the PC for a looooong looooong time. You play parental rebellion game you takes your chances. So go for it, I guess. No worse than me sneaking my dad's Playboy stash when I was his age. But I never had any illusions of the repercussions of being caught.

QFT.

.........

[beetlebum]

I'm going to second what Mac has said about sometimes just being caring and compassionate is enough to be considered "witnessing" to a group of people. You don't have to openly proselytize to share your religious viewpoints.

Example: when I was in college, I hung with the freaks, geeks, and weirdos (that's what we called ourselves, it was not, to us, an insult). Most of them were not Christians, and some were, due to bad experiences, virulently anti-Christian. This was due in part to the practice of one of the Christian groups on campus randomly choosing anyone who looked different (smokers were particularly vulnerable to this tactic), walking up to them and informing them that they were going to hell. Needless to say, this did not leave my friends very apt to enjoy the company of Christians.

Long story short, my friends knew that I was a Christian. They would come to me with questions and I would answer them as best I could. They were willing to listen because my approach was simply to be a good friend, to love them, listen to them, and NOT get confrontational. It's not only possible, it works.

Well said, Sally.

"Witnessing" to someone can take on many different forms. I prefer the method you mentioned in your post.

It's less confrontational, and it's less likely to push people away.

And that--in my opinion--is the best way to go about things.

[Matt Algren]

Well said, Sally.

"Witnessing" to someone can take on many different forms. I prefer the method you mentioned in your post.

It's less confrontational, and it's less likely to push people away.

And that--in my opinion--is the best way to go about things.
Wait, so there's more than tracts?!? But those have my script all written out!

[TCJohnson]

Example: when I was in college, I hung with the freaks, geeks, and weirdos

Haven't moved up much in the world, have you?

[Sally Sensational]

Haven't moved up much in the world, have you?

I don't recall pissing in your cheerios this morning, Johnson. :tongue:

[sk716]

Haven't moved up much in the world, have you?

Funny. :biggrin:

And Samurai, if you continue to be an ass outside of the un-moderated threads, I'm going to stop ignoring it and react accordingly.

[Samurai]

Funny. :biggrin:

And Samurai, if you continue to be an ass outside of the un-moderated threads, I'm going to stop ignoring it and react accordingly.

I was not "an ass" in any way, shape, or form.

[sk716]

You just called the entire Singaporean culture "hateful"...

Except, of course, if he actually DID try to share the gospel with the gay folks around here, to try and show them the light and "turn them from their path of sin", he'd get attacked and mauled beyond recognition...

The Lesbians already have converted me... I HAVE SEEN THE LIGHT!

I was not "an ass" in any way, shape, or form.

I disagree and it's not up for discussion.

[Crowley]

I was not "an ass" in any way, shape, or form.

You know Fuzzy has both a culture and a religion as a reason for the potential bigotry surrounding him... what's your excuse again?

[Samurai]

You know Fuzzy has both a culture and a religion as a reason for the potential bigotry surrounding him... what's your excuse again?

And again someone calls his culture and religion (potentially) "bigoted". And I'm the ass?

Maybe the first step to teaching him about other cultures would be to stop being so judgmental and critical of his own culture? Tell him about other countries and cultures without automatically proclaiming it "better" or "less bigoted". He's a smart guy, let him make up his own mind, and if he happens to appreciate some parts of his own culture and religion, there's nothing wrong with that. He's not attacking people here, so relax on the cultural judgments.

[Charles RB]

And again someone calls his culture and religion (potentially) "bigoted".

They didn't the first time, and I really doubt Crowley is doing so. I can see where it might be possible to misread what he's saying here. That's not true for Corrina though, there you'd have to be deliberately trying to distort things or misread.

[Samurai]

They didn't the first time, and I really doubt Crowley is doing so. I can see where it might be possible to misread what he's saying here. That's not true for Corrina though, there you'd have to be deliberately trying to distort things or misread.

And just how would you parse Crowley's statement concerning Fuzzy's culture and religion?

Whatever, the point of the post remains... stop criticizing his culture and instead teach him about others using a minimum of judgment and condemnation.

[Spike-X]

*hugs the Ignore List*

I just can't believe it took me this long.

[Sabrinaset]

Guys, if sk says the issue is not up for discussion, then there really shouldn't be any more discussion about it, kay?

[MacQuarrie]

And again someone calls his culture and religion (potentially) "bigoted". And I'm the ass?

Maybe the first step to teaching him about other cultures would be to stop being so judgmental and critical of his own culture? Tell him about other countries and cultures without automatically proclaiming it "better" or "less bigoted". He's a smart guy, let him make up his own mind, and if he happens to appreciate some parts of his own culture and religion, there's nothing wrong with that. He's not attacking people here, so relax on the cultural judgments.

I thought that one of the key beliefs of conservatism is that all cultures are not equally wonderful, that there are in fact objective ideals and morals, and that some cultures do better than others at exemplifying various of them. If a culture practices routine discrimination and oppression (as South Africa once did, as the United States has, as India's caste system does), is it wrong to label that culture bigoted?

You can't have it both ways. Either you believe in the conservative view that there are cultural values that are objectively worthy of promoting and others that are not, or you believe in the liberal view that all cultures have to be equally valid regardless of the particulars of their values. In which case, either you are being deliberately disingenuous in order to "score a point" in your ongoing debate/jousting match. or you don't really hold to conservative ideals.

In either case, it's not helpful to Fuzzy or anyone else.

Maybe you could try conversing instead of debating. It's possible to disagree with someone without having to strive to vanquish their position. It's not a contest. There's no prize for winning the conversation. In fact, conversations don't need to have winners. In fact, they don't even need to have sides. We could just talk, without having to constantly try to prove the other person wrong or catch them in a contradiction or whatever ridiculous challenge you've set for yourself. Unclench and try to enjoy the people here who share many of your interests, and whom you might find to be quite nice people, if you'd stop trying to defeat them all the time.

Or keep doing what you're doing until somebody gets tired of it and you find yourself joining KCSuberman, ChuckG and all the rest of the strident Conservative Crusaders in Banville.

[Nick Soapdish]

You can't have it both ways. Either you believe in the conservative view that there are cultural values that are objectively worthy of promoting and others that are not, or you believe in the liberal view that all cultures have to be equally valid regardless of the particulars of their values. In which case, either you are being deliberately disingenuous in order to "score a point" in your ongoing debate/jousting match. or you don't really hold to conservative ideals.

I don't think that's a liberal view.

I think that the liberal view is that we should try to appreciate the values of other cultures by giving them a fair look and look at the good and bad of all cultures.

But not all things are created equal. (Is that what you mean by valid?)

For instance, I don't think that the cultural values of the Toltecs are equally good as ours.

Then again, I may not be a very good liberal.

[Samurai]

I thought that one of the key beliefs of conservatism is that all cultures are not equally wonderful, that there are in fact objective ideals and morals, and that some cultures do better than others at exemplifying various of them. If a culture practices routine discrimination and oppression (as South Africa once did, as the United States has, as India's caste system does), is it wrong to label that culture bigoted?

You can't have it both ways. Either you believe in the conservative view that there are cultural values that are objectively worthy of promoting and others that are not, or you believe in the liberal view that all cultures have to be equally valid regardless of the particulars of their values. In which case, either you are being deliberately disingenuous in order to "score a point" in your ongoing debate/jousting match. or you don't really hold to conservative ideals.

In either case, it's no