Civil War and the SHRA have meant nothing

[timomcshade]

I have just come to that realization. At the end of that event there were soo many possibilities for future stories but it was never followed through. Every time Stark shows up to arrest someone I laugh.

They cause as much damage as ever.

Spider-Man is still not known to the public. It just goes on and on. About the only good thing it did was fracture the heroes to setup for the Skrulls. What do you guys think?

[Jake V]

Stan Lee called it "the illusion of change"

This is a continuation of that tradition.

[jackolover]

I can see the idea of the illusion of change, while the original poster supposes that while it changes it's still the same.

But I can't help thinking there has been a mindset shift about the MU and it's heroes. The heroes look the same, sure, and the property damage is like before, sure, but when it comes to whether the MU has changed, I have to say the Civil War altered the concept of heroism radically.

Whereas once we viewed characters like Iron Man as definate heroes, no question, I can't say that the CW hasn't altered that image for me. I look at Tony Stark now, and I can't trust him. Not that he doesn't have heroic qualities; he does. But this war changed the trust. Whereas once I wouldn't question Reed Richards, Samson, and Tony Stark, (I ignore Hank Pym for obvious reasons), these people took it upon themselves to side against their own kind and callously punked them out. I don't care that they thought they were doing the right thing, according to their conscience, because that just doesn't float anymore.

The damage has been done. I think that was the effect of CW and the SRA. You can't look at those characters the same way again.

[rZi]

I thought it reshaped the MU a little, but the lasting ramifications aren't clear. I mean....it feels like un-registered super-humans are not being chased after like it was during CW, i may be wrong on this and it could of happend in another book.

The X-Men's change isn't really CW/SHRA related....more Messiah Complex which is only really relavant to the X-verse.

I was about to list who isn't registered...but it would take too long.

[yadadaimhollaing]

I have just come to that realization. At the end of that event there were soo many possibilities for future stories but it was never followed through. Every time Stark shows up to arrest someone I laugh.

They cause as much damage as ever.

Spider-Man is still not known to the public. It just goes on and on. About the only good thing it did was fracture the heroes to setup for the Skrulls. What do you guys think?

Ya civil war was disappointing in that sense. If stories didn't have to run for 6 months to tell one story it would be much better. There was so much potential for spidermans villians to torture mary jane and aunt may but instead all we got was one story of the kingpin knowing who he was. Then we got omd :(

[Sentinel K]

The 'problem' with Marvel is that for the past few years they've had an 'event'.

House of M, Civil War, WWH, Secret invasion.

Now IMO these have all been pretty good and I've enjoyed them. BUT with most comic titles only getting 12 issues a year they aren't allowing enough time to explore the after-effects of these events before they're building up to the next one.

* The New Avengers had barely done anything before Civil War came along and split them apart.

* I don't believe the 'No More Mutants' scenario was explored properly in the X-Books before Messiah CompleX changed things

*The Skrull Invasion has gotten in the way of the SHRA (although this works ok in the story. I mean this IS more important than wether Spider-Man is a registered hero).

Basically Marvel need to have more breathing space between the events instead of constantly hitting us with a new one every 8 months or so.

[Britannic]

They won't give anything breathing space. everything is now geared towards the summer blockuster crossover story. It seems to be how they are set to operate now. I remember when these things were rare and special. 1 every year is sort of devaluing the whole thing for me.

[CyberCoyote]

The only thing the SHRA has done is add a title to the Avengers line up and a Defenders mini they could have done without it. In order for it to really impact the MU they need to reference/use it in all the titles and show how it CHANGES the outcome of certain stories. I think the problem is.. if you REALLY have all this coordination in the MU for supers then they really would be able to just manhandle any threats and the bad guys would really be put back on the ropes for good ending 80% of the stories there are to be told.

SHRA=hamstring most of the plots used in comics. It's like introducing a water powered motor to a company that makes all it's profits from selling petrol :) Maybe it's a great idea, but you've gotta change the company around the new idea/product. It would be a great theme for a 'Marvel Universe: The End' kinda story, but if you want to keep selling super hero comics where the good guys are thwarting the plans of evil badguys it's not gonna work. If they really implement the SHRA and organize like they planned then the only stories are about internal intrigue as the villains don't stand a chance.

[Abrojo]

CW changed the landscape quite a bit IMHO

1) Captain America died.

2) Stark is Director of Shield.

3) Fantastic Four got to "enjoy" Black Panther & Storm for a while. (temporary change i admit, but significant for FF fans).

4) 2 quite different Avenger teams.

5) The Initiative.

6) Spider-man might not be known to public anymore, but OMD/BND are an effect of CW. One could say CW also indirectly made Peter Parker single.

[Mark_S]

CW changed the landscape quite a bit IMHO

1) Captain America died.


Marvel says that Cap would have died anyway, though the sra did complicate Bucky becoming the new Cap. The rest I agree with you.

I'm on record as hating the shra and by extension most of the pro-sra heroes. To this day I hate Tony and I really can't find it in me to like Ms. Marvel. Reed isn't someone I'd trust again.
But while the shra has changed the landscape of marvel I don't think they've explored it as much as they could have. In many ways it was like Identity Crisis over at DC, interesting premise with morals tossed out the door, but very few real consequences for the side that tossed away the morals. Only Zatanna got any real grief over ID and that was only from Batman and Catwoman. They made Black Canary head of the Justice League and that is much the same as making Tony head of SHIELD.

I would have liked a little time between the events and some really in dept stories and characterizations. We've only had slight hints of that in the Tony/Thor confrontation, by rights heros should be lining up to spit in Tony's eye. Nor have we seen much of how the pro-sra side is feeling about the rebels. If you follow the MA/NA and the Initiative maybe you have a feel for what is going on.

But I think that while cw was someone elses bright idea SI is Bendis's bright idea, and JQ likes bright ideas more than he likes the stuff in between them. Like Spiderman unmasking cw should have generated tons of storylines for at least five years, but events are events and nothing will stand in their way. After SI we may see some stories about how things stand and how the heroes work their way back toward trusting each other-even Tony- but I suspect that'll be a few issues here and there and only before the next big event rolls around. Maybe next time it'll be the kree invading, it might be their turn after the skrulls.



Mark_S

[Lunal]

Its easier to take DC's events more seriously. Marvel's events mean nothing from the get go, while DC's events actually mean something big and important for a short while before they get changed back.

[Monty_Cristo]

I can see the idea of the illusion of change, while the original poster supposes that while it changes it's still the same.

But I can't help thinking there has been a mindset shift about the MU and it's heroes. The heroes look the same, sure, and the property damage is like before, sure, but when it comes to whether the MU has changed, I have to say the Civil War altered the concept of heroism radically.

Whereas once we viewed characters like Iron Man as definate heroes, no question, I can't say that the CW hasn't altered that image for me. I look at Tony Stark now, and I can't trust him. Not that he doesn't have heroic qualities; he does. But this war changed the trust. Whereas once I wouldn't question Reed Richards, Samson, and Tony Stark, (I ignore Hank Pym for obvious reasons), these people took it upon themselves to side against their own kind and callously punked them out. I don't care that they thought they were doing the right thing, according to their conscience, because that just doesn't float anymore.

The damage has been done. I think that was the effect of CW and the SRA. You can't look at those characters the same way again.

now you have to look at them as human beings capable of making mistakes. boo hoo.

[Arrogantcur]

If this is too off-topic I apologize, but I've always kind of thought that while the SHRA and the way it was enforced were terrible things, they were a response to a real problem that ought to be dealt with.

For example, Spidey's one of the biggest boy scouts among the superheroes in the Marvel Universe, right? Yet he still sometimes does stuff like what is shown in this post from the "moral compass" thread:

in case anybodys wondering what i was refering to of spiderman beating a guy up heres the page from amazing spiderman 154

http://img355.imageshack.us/img355/7700/amazing154mt4.jpg

Now okay, it's good that he feels bad about it and that he's remorseful and all of that. But when Spider-Man loses it like that (or worse, and he HAS done worse), shouldn't there be somebody around to stop him? That's why the police have Internal Affairs, and it's a good thing that the police have Internal Affairs.

If it's a choice between the status quo and opting for "making a Gitmo in the Negative Zone/blackmailing superhumans into working for you/enslaving superhumans through nanotechnology/being assholes in all kinds of other ways as well" then I'll absolutely take the STATUS QUO without having to think about the decision for a single second.

But there has to be a way of making sure those with great power don't abuse it, whether we're talking about elected officials or guys who can press 10 tons.

[tlunning]

I think it's really changed the general MU. The SHRA is law. The big aftereffect is the Initiative coming together (uh-oh, whatdyamean Skrulls?!) I think that enforcing the law is fictionally difficult to convey- it'd be tough to write a superhero book about someone in prison issue after issue. Of course, someone could probably do it. But Spider-Man won't be going to jail anytime soon.

Obviously the CW series/tie-ins are where the real goods were at with jailbreaks and rival factions actually at war. Whenever the two Avengers teams meet there's always some good reason for Tony to let Cage and company off the hook. The war is over! i guess instead of street-levelers, there are underground heroes. I still think that's pretty cool.

Are any heroes locked up at this time? I figure most opted for a SHRA card rather than sit it out in the Negative Zone.

[Mark_S]

I think it's really changed the general MU. The SHRA is law. The big aftereffect is the Initiative coming together (uh-oh, whatdyamean Skrulls?!) I think that enforcing the law is fictionally difficult to convey- it'd be tough to write a superhero book about someone in prison issue after issue. Of course, someone could probably do it. But Spider-Man won't be going to jail anytime soon.

Obviously the CW series/tie-ins are where the real goods were at with jailbreaks and rival factions actually at war. Whenever the two Avengers teams meet there's always some good reason for Tony to let Cage and company off the hook. The war is over! i guess instead of street-levelers, there are underground heroes. I still think that's pretty cool.

Are any heroes locked up at this time? I figure most opted for a SHRA card rather than sit it out in the Negative Zone.

Marvel's been kinda hazy on that, but I think the Thunderbolt's run their own private prison.

Mark_S

[Pyro]

I agree that with Marvel being so event-minded, that it hurts the potential for books to explore new status quos. However, I do think the effects of Civil War are still pretty evident.

There was so much potential for spidermans villians to torture mary jane and aunt may but instead all we got was one story of the kingpin knowing who he was. Then we got omd :(You must not have been reading anything outside of Amazing Spider-Man. Mysterio, Doc Ock, the Chameleon, Molten Man, Will O' the Wisp, Scarecrow, Eddie Brock, and Bee Man, all came after Peter and people he knows and loves.

[jackolover]

now you have to look at them as human beings capable of making mistakes. boo hoo.

What really changed from CW was how Peter Parker was seduced, firstly by Tony Starks opulent residence and welfare shown to his family without a home. Then, the Iron Spider suit; and the coup de grac was how Tony Stark lured Peter into siding with his pro-regs group, with leadership position and second-in-command status.

Peter Parker was ready, now, for the fall, and ripe for Mephistos temptation of OMD.

If peter Parker never got involved with the New Avengers, Tony Stark wouldn't have been so on the spot to offer asistance; if Peter never got in a position of susceptability by being close to Stark and Starks influence, then CW wouldn't have affected Spiderman one bit. He would be on the run from the authorities like every second Tuesday, like in BND, when they can't touch him.

But no, Peter was placed in a position that gave him power, respectability, security, and consequenty, arrogance. The flaws in his character only widened, when he resisted the temptations. and he was faced with the choice of killing the Kingpin, and letting his Aunt May die. In both cases, he postponed those decisions, which led directly to BND. And you could say BND is like Peter Parker without CW ever happeneing, only their is a price to pay to Mephisto, Harry Osborn is still alive, and MJ is out of the picture.

[Arrogantcur]

But Spider-Man won't be going to jail anytime soon.

I wonder if anybody ever said the same thing about Hawkeye (http://www.leaderslair.com/thunderbolts/thunderbolts050.html).

The "minor crimes" he was imprisoned for include assault, larceny, trespassing, and operating an aircraft without FAA clearance. These are just the ones Gyrich mentioned by name before asking whether he should continue listing felonies or move on to misdemeanors.

So really, most of the superheroes could be arrested and charged if the authorities cared to do so. It's just that up until CW the establishment looked the other way more often than not.

[ivesaidway2much]

So really, most of the superheroes could be arrested and charged if the authorities cared to do so. It's just that up until CW the establishment looked the other way more often than not.And afterwards, too. Pardons get handed out like candy.

[tlunning]

I appreciate the public scrutiny of heroes after Stamford and CW as a plot point. People aren't comfortable with them or happy with the damage they may cause. There's discussion in the thread for SI: Front Line about how many people actually interact with superheroes. But when they do... it's a far cry from Marvels. If these guys are duking it out on your street and your car or home gets wrecked, somebody has to take responsibility and be accountable.

Yeah. Continuity through events leaves a lot of these issues unresolved- it's not exactly like Watchmen, where all the heroes retire for a while once they are illegalized.

[Abrojo]

Marvel says that Cap would have died anyway, though the sra did complicate Bucky becoming the new Cap. The rest I agree with you.

I'm on record as hating the shra and by extension most of the pro-sra heroes. To this day I hate Tony and I really can't find it in me to like Ms. Marvel. Reed isn't someone I'd trust again.
But while the shra has changed the landscape of marvel I don't think they've explored it as much as they could have.

I agree that a lot of things where left unexplored. Or better said, they are exploring them too slow. Case in point, Thor-Stark interaction is going slow but it is an ongoing thing.

The problem perhaps with having more rough consequences is that you make CW more painful for the people that didnt like it. At this level of dependance at least nonCW fans can enjoy some stuff. Its a hard balance to achieve and Marvel did decent in that regard in my book.

In many ways it was like Identity Crisis over at DC, interesting premise with morals tossed out the door, but very few real consequences for the side that tossed away the morals. Only Zatanna got any real grief over ID and that was only from Batman and Catwoman. They made Black Canary head of the Justice League and that is much the same as making Tony head of SHIELD.

From the start i think Identity Crisis was really oriented as a stand alone event with Civil War more oriented towards lasting effects. I think for CW they actually started planning from what their desired ending was, where as for IC it was more planned from how it started. To be honest, now that we have seen how bad DC editorial handles medium-to-long term event planning with the Final Crisis vs Countdown/Death of the New Gods debacle, its probably for the best it was done that way.

Still think that for better or worse, for like or dislike, Civil War brought a large lasting effect on the Marvel Universe that still is creating ripples. And i prefer events like this. If not, to me it feels like a teamup arc instead of an event per se.

Regarding Black Canary and Tony, Tony made much sense as DoS, everyone saw it coming because it was the only way things could have worked at least half decently. But BC as head of Justice League was a bit more WTF. Unlike SHIELD whose leaders are chosen by politicians, JL is ran by heroes themselves...

Like Spiderman unmasking cw should have generated tons of storylines for at least five years, but events are events and nothing will stand in their way.

I totally agreed they wimped out on Spiderman. Though i still think that unmasking was retarded in the first place, by all sides involved. Would have made more sense for Kingpin to hack SHIELD to steal the ID or something along those lines if they wanted to force OMD/BND.
However, this kind of things i think, is more something regarding the creative team behind the comic than Marvel Editorial. Now i know JoeQ was with JMS behind OMD/BND. What i mean is that Marvel Editorial puts the things in there, and then its for each team to choose how tight they want to do the knot and for how long.

[TF_loki]

The only thing the SHRA has done is add a title to the Avengers line up and a Defenders mini they could have done without it. In order for it to really impact the MU they need to reference/use it in all the titles and show how it CHANGES the outcome of certain stories. I think the problem is.. if you REALLY have all this coordination in the MU for supers then they really would be able to just manhandle any threats and the bad guys would really be put back on the ropes for good ending 80% of the stories there are to be told.

SHRA=hamstring most of the plots used in comics. It's like introducing a water powered motor to a company that makes all it's profits from selling petrol :) Maybe it's a great idea, but you've gotta change the company around the new idea/product. It would be a great theme for a 'Marvel Universe: The End' kinda story, but if you want to keep selling super hero comics where the good guys are thwarting the plans of evil badguys it's not gonna work. If they really implement the SHRA and organize like they planned then the only stories are about internal intrigue as the villains don't stand a chance.

But why don't the villains stand a chance? Potentially there are less heroes around (is that why Stark was helping to make them in 'The Order' and why they are training teenagers at camp Hammond and unleashing psychos in T-bolts?) because some are being locked up, lots reassigned across the country and some have quit forever. Those escaping lock-up have to be careful about they drop off villains or risk sharing their fate. Arguably it's made life more dangerous. The villains are still going to do what they're going to do but the good guys are tied in knots. And unless we go for spectacular unrealism (which, to be fair was how we got the SHRA anyway) there's no easy way to sweep it away.

It's good drama.

[Jim Thompson]

Not only was the SHRA a fairly simplistic and silly idea, it doesn't seem to have left much of an impact on the MU, other than turning the former heroes into a group of largely unlikable characters. That's my take on it, anyway.

[jackolover]

But why don't the villains stand a chance? Potentially there are less heroes around (is that why Stark was helping to make them in 'The Order' and why they are training teenagers at camp Hammond and unleashing psychos in T-bolts?) because some are being locked up, lots reassigned across the country and some have quit forever. Those escaping lock-up have to be careful about they drop off villains or risk sharing their fate. Arguably it's made life more dangerous. The villains are still going to do what they're going to do but the good guys are tied in knots. And unless we go for spectacular unrealism (which, to be fair was how we got the SHRA anyway) there's no easy way to sweep it away.

It's good drama.

But did Marvel deliver? I see your point about putting kids through Camp Hammond and synthetics heroes in The Order, and even the TBolts, all of which are fill-ins, because there just isn't enough heroes to go around, if you spread them through 50 states. But you'd think there would be more catastrophies after the Initiative, and that Tony and Reed would see the trend of violence escalate, and realise that the FSI hasn't worked.

Instead, we get very casual storytelling, WWH, Atlantis, Silent Invasion being thought of as just any other superhuman encounters, and no body worries. You'd think the dangers of these events would worry the authorities, because nobody takes out the Inhumans, Namor, and the Hulk and there is not going to be payback. Marvel postpones these paybacks and just moves on, business as usual.

Meanwhile, the valley opening up between the hero and villain incidents widens daily, while people like the Hood have already begun a villains backlash, and it won't take long before they organise better, and then WWH will seem like a tea party. The villains have been sitting on their hands this whole time. Anybody can see that the heroes don't operate independantly anymore, and it won't take the villains long to realise it takes twice as long for a beaurocracy like the Initiative to react, than for loose canon super heroes to find you and foil you.

I think a hidden scheme has been brewing ever since the villains were forced underground during CW, and one day soon, someones going to bust this Universe open. I can feel it.

[Mark_S]

But did Marvel deliver? I see your point about putting kids through Camp Hammond and synthetics heroes in The Order, and even the TBolts, all of which are fill-ins, because there just isn't enough heroes to go around, if you spread them through 50 states. But you'd think there would be more catastrophies after the Initiative, and that Tony and Reed would see the trend of violence escalate, and realise that the FSI hasn't worked.

Instead, we get very casual storytelling, WWH, Atlantis, Silent Invasion being thought of as just any other superhuman encounters, and no body worries. You'd think the dangers of these events would worry the authorities, because nobody takes out the Inhumans, Namor, and the Hulk and there is not going to be payback. Marvel postpones these paybacks and just moves on, business as usual.

Meanwhile, the valley opening up between the hero and villain incidents widens daily, while people like the Hood have already begun a villains backlash, and it won't take long before they organise better, and then WWH will seem like a tea party. The villains have been sitting on their hands this whole time. Anybody can see that the heroes don't operate independantly anymore, and it won't take the villains long to realise it takes twice as long for a beaurocracy like the Initiative to react, than for loose canon super heroes to find you and foil you.

I think a hidden scheme has been brewing ever since the villains were forced underground during CW, and one day soon, someones going to bust this Universe open. I can feel it.

I don't think so. I think for that to happen the marvel writers/editors themselves would have to realize and write about the full impact of the shra and cw on the mu, and they are too busy with si right now. Even if si wasn't going on I don't think they'd be up to it. CW was the explosion, picking up the pieces afterwards should have been a company wide effort with shockwaves going through every title and that just hasn't happened. There have only been vague references to how many heroes truly signed up, how many simply hung up the cape and vanished and how many just said no and are still in jail. What you're describing would be good and was done nicely in the Justice League Unlimmited Cartoon but I don't think it's something that marvel feels like doing.
Marvel has a scattershot editorial policy, some writers like the shra concept and run with it, others will pretty much ignore it.

Mark_S

[Magneto Rocks]

Anybody can see that the heroes don't operate independantly anymore, and it won't take the villains long to realise it takes twice as long for a beaurocracy like the Initiative to react, than for loose canon super heroes to find you and foil you..

I think this is interesting because the Initiative offers both big down-sides and big up-sides to being a super-villain. The upside is obvious- as you said, in theory the beaurocracy should tie the heroes' hands- though that hasn't worked so far, as only the Mandarin tried to exploit it and he was screwed when Tony worked around the SHRA anyway. So the beaurocracy hasn't stopped the heroes yet, but it might.

However obviously, the Initiative is also a big down-side to the villains simply because it means the heroes are far more organised. While the nature of the Skrull threat made it easy to get around the Initiative, something like DC's Secret Society or whatever is the PERFECT enemy for the Initiative, because it's very easy to rally against and deploy in army-like force against. Organisation of the heroes is bad for the villains. They should count themselves lucky there's government intereference in there because if Tony gets what he wants and the corrupt elements weeded out, the Initiative would be absolutely CATASTROPHIC for organised villainy. And we've already seen steps towards that with Skrull-Hank and Gyrich out. If they are replaced with more competent and less corrupt officials, then the beaurocratic side can be minimised and the Initiative will be one unholy terror for villains everywhere.

[Arrogantcur]

Meanwhile, the valley opening up between the hero and villain incidents widens daily, while people like the Hood have already begun a villains backlash, and it won't take long before they organise better, and then WWH will seem like a tea party. The villains have been sitting on their hands this whole time. Anybody can see that the heroes don't operate independantly anymore, and it won't take the villains long to realise it takes twice as long for a beaurocracy like the Initiative to react, than for loose canon super heroes to find you and foil you.

In a Captain America issue shortly before Rogers got shot, the Red Skull made a similar observation about how the split in the hero community was making things a lot easier for guys like him.

[Jim Thompson]

In a Captain America issue shortly before Rogers got shot, the Red Skull made a similar observation about how the split in the hero community was making things a lot easier for guys like him.Part of the reason I didn't like Civil War to begin with. As it was written, the "heroes" were so busy fighting themselves all they really succeeded in doing was opening the door for their adversaries to get more of their work done. I know there are people who will argue to look at how the crime rates went down, but in fact all that happened was common street crime went down a bit. What major villain has been put away in America since the SHRA started? I suppose one could say Doom, except that he was put away for something he didn't actually do. (Smart to play Stark like that, too. Doom was one of the people who stood a good chance of stopping a Skrull invasion in its tracks.)

[32Cage]

The 'problem' with Marvel is that for the past few years they've had an 'event'.

House of M, Civil War, WWH, Secret invasion.

Now IMO these have all been pretty good and I've enjoyed them. BUT with most comic titles only getting 12 issues a year they aren't allowing enough time to explore the after-effects of these events before they're building up to the next one.

* The New Avengers had barely done anything before Civil War came along and split them apart.

* I don't believe the 'No More Mutants' scenario was explored properly in the X-Books before Messiah CompleX changed things

*The Skrull Invasion has gotten in the way of the SHRA (although this works ok in the story. I mean this IS more important than wether Spider-Man is a registered hero).

Basically Marvel need to have more breathing space between the events instead of constantly hitting us with a new one every 8 months or so.

In essence i agree. What is very difficult with monthy comics is determining the events in real time. What may occur over several months in the comics can represent events happening only days or weeks apart. I still don't have a handle on how much time has transpired between Captain America's assasination and the Secret Invasion confrontation now taking place in New York and the Savage Land.

[Sandy Hausler]

I have just come to that realization. At the end of that event there were soo many possibilities for future stories but it was never followed through. Every time Stark shows up to arrest someone I laugh.

They cause as much damage as ever.

Spider-Man is still not known to the public. It just goes on and on. About the only good thing it did was fracture the heroes to setup for the Skrulls. What do you guys think?


I rather like the idea that Tony Stark is a Skrull. It makes perfect sense. I know very few people in this forum believe it, but that's what makes it even more likely to me. It increases the shock value.

That would be a great way to rehabilitate Tony and tie it in with Secret Invasion.

Sandy Hausler

[ivesaidway2much]

I don't think so. I think for that to happen the marvel writers/editors themselves would have to realize and write about the full impact of the shra and cw on the mu, and they are too busy with si right now. Even if si wasn't going on I don't think they'd be up to it. CW was the explosion, picking up the pieces afterwards should have been a company wide effort with shockwaves going through every title and that just hasn't happened. There have only been vague references to how many heroes truly signed up, how many simply hung up the cape and vanished and how many just said no and are still in jail. What you're describing would be good and was done nicely in the Justice League Unlimmited Cartoon but I don't think it's something that marvel feels like doing.
Marvel has a scattershot editorial policy, some writers like the shra concept and run with it, others will pretty much ignore it.

Mark_SCivil War is still in full affect in the Hulk titles. Green Hulk, Red Hulk, Herc, and Cho have all been in jail, undercover and/or hunted by SHIELD for months now. Even She-hulk, who was pro-reg, has had ongoing grudge against Tony that's spanned three titles (She-hulk, Hulk, and Last Defenders). In the Hulkverse, the SHRA, WWH, and SHIELD are pretty much the only thing anyone ever thinks about. Well... up until their SI tie-ins started anyway.

[Jim Thompson]

I rather like the idea that Tony Stark is a Skrull. It makes perfect sense. I know very few people in this forum believe it, but that's what makes it even more likely to me. It increases the shock value.

That would be a great way to rehabilitate Tony and tie it in with Secret Invasion.

Sandy HauslerI agree, this would be an excellent move for Marvel.

Sadly, I don't think there's much chance of it happening.

[Abrojo]

Not only was the SHRA a fairly simplistic and silly idea, it doesn't seem to have left much of an impact on the MU, other than turning the former heroes into a group of largely unlikable characters. That's my take on it, anyway.

I still cant believe people that say CW didnt have much impact on the MU. Not only did it have on the on the spot impact with deaths, alliances broken, etc. It also had a ton lasting impact and ripples we feel today even during Secret Invasion. Like the outcome or not, the impact is there. You hating it doesnt make it disappear.

I agree, this would be an excellent move for Marvel.

Sadly, I don't think there's much chance of it happening.


No, it wouldnt. Just like making Captain America a Skrull wouldnt.
It would make Civil War and the majority of comics from then till now pointless.

I understand you want to return to the previous status quo, but doing a copout of the majority of recent continuity would be a disastrous move by marvel to create credibility in its stories and events.

[Jim Thompson]

I still cant believe people that say CW didnt have much impact on the MU. Not only did it have on the on the spot impact with deaths, alliances broken, etc. It also had a ton lasting impact and ripples we feel today even during Secret Invasion. Like the outcome or not, the impact is there. You hating it doesnt make it disappear.

No, it wouldnt. Just like making Captain America a Skrull wouldnt.
It would make Civil War and the majority of comics from then till now pointless.

I understand you want to return to the previous status quo, but doing a copout of the majority of recent continuity would be a disastrous move by marvel to create credibility in its stories and events.What effects are you referring to? And why is the horrible mischaracterization of the MU's characters in Civil War okay, and the set-up for Secret Invasion that's been going on forever all right, but revealing that Tony Stark is a skrull is not? At least such a reveal would explain why he's been acting so out-of-character over the past few years. (I'd say that would also apply to Captain america, but really it only applies to the Mark Millar versionof Cap. Brubaker and others really do seem to understand the character of Steve Rogers.)

[Teh m0nk3y]

What effects are you referring to? And why is the horrible mischaracterization of the MU's characters in Civil War okay, and the set-up for Secret Invasion that's been going on forever all right, but revealing that Tony Stark is a skrull is not? At least such a reveal would explain why he's been acting so out-of-character over the past few years. (I'd say that would also apply to Captain america, but really it only applies to the Mark Millar versionof Cap. Brubaker and others really do seem to understand the character of Steve Rogers.)

What I'm getting out of this is the following:
Who cares about the readers that stayed and enjoyed Tony Stark since Civil War.

Having Stark be a skrull would be the worst thing to a reader like me. It would kill my interest in the comic book character. Just like Civil War and it's results did for you.

[Sandy Hausler]

No, it wouldnt. Just like making Captain America a Skrull wouldnt. It would make Civil War and the majority of comics from then till now pointless.

I understand you want to return to the previous status quo, but doing a copout of the majority of recent continuity would be a disastrous move by marvel to create credibility in its stories and events.

What exactly is the point of CW that you think would be lost? That super heroes are irresponsible beings who need to be supervised and/or controlled by the government? Making CW, at least in part, the work of the Skrulls adds a level of subtext to the whole thing. Even if the Skrulls used it to their advantage, was it wrong to require heroes to register with the government? Was the reaction to Stamford based on a real threat or a Skrull manufactured one.

It's hardly a copout, anymore than having any hero having been a Skrull for any period of time. CW happened. Now we can see why it happened and was it a good thing.

But you are right. I would like the return to the status quo ante. At least I didn't dislike half of the heroes of the MU back then.

Sandy Hausler

[Mark_S]

Civil War is still in full affect in the Hulk titles. Green Hulk, Red Hulk, Herc, and Cho have all been in jail, undercover and/or hunted by SHIELD for months now. Even She-hulk, who was pro-reg, has had ongoing grudge against Tony that's spanned three titles (She-hulk, Hulk, and Last Defenders). In the Hulkverse, the SHRA, WWH, and SHIELD are pretty much the only thing anyone ever thinks about. Well... up until their SI tie-ins started anyway.

In those titles it has been front and center, though She-Hulk's feud with Tony has nothing to do with the sra, but it other titles it is virtually ignored.

Mark_S

[Sandy Hausler]

What I'm getting out of this is the following:
Who cares about the readers that stayed and enjoyed Tony Stark since Civil War.

Having Stark be a skrull would be the worst thing to a reader like me. It would kill my interest in the comic book character. Just like Civil War and it's results did for you.

But you can say that about any character who turns out to be a skrull.

If you like the Tony Stark who made it his life's work to put Captain America behind bars, well then maybe you deserve to be disappointed.

I was disappointed by how he (and Reed and Hank Pym) acted over the past few years.

Sandy Hausler

[Mark_S]

What I'm getting out of this is the following:
Who cares about the readers that stayed and enjoyed Tony Stark since Civil War.

Having Stark be a skrull would be the worst thing to a reader like me. It would kill my interest in the comic book character. Just like Civil War and it's results did for you.

I hate to sound insensitive, but why do you think marvel would care about your feelings for the characters any more than they cared for mine? In my opinion marvel doesn't really have loyalty to the readers, they do what they want to the characters based on the story they want to tell and if the story doesn't fit with what has gone before and it angers or infuriates some readers marvel is quite willing to endure that so long as sales are high. And perhaps on the business end of things they are perfectly justified in doing so. They have to make money after all, and sales are the true god of a publishing company.

Again in my opinion the writers at marvel are not so much interested in telling great stories based on what has come before, but in making sure that their stories are so ground breaking and important that the marvel universe will be changed forever. We had that with another set of writers in cw and now we have it in SI with Bendis. You don't so much have all the writers working as a team in a shared universe as you have all the writers competing with each other and each title or titles that they write have become their own special universes, universes that have only a passing connection to the rest of the mu. This is shown perfectly in FF where they had to put out a special mini FF series to cover si. So while I believe that cw did change parts of the mu I also believe that any writer is free to ignore those changes if he so wishes.

Mark_S

[Sandy Hausler]

I hate to sound insensitive, but why do you think marvel would care about your feelings for the characters any more than they cared for mine? In my opinion marvel doesn't really have loyalty to the readers, they do what they want to the characters based on the story they want to tell and if the story doesn't fit with what has gone before and it angers or infuriates some readers marvel is quite willing to endure that so long as sales are high. And perhaps on the business end of things they are perfectly justified in doing so. They have to make money after all, and sales are the true god of a publishing company.

Again in my opinion the writers at marvel are not so much interested in telling great stories based on what has come before, but in making sure that their stories are so ground breaking and important that the marvel universe will be changed forever. We had that with another set of writers in cw and now we have it in SI with Bendis. You don't so much have all the writers working as a team in a shared universe as you have all the writers competing with each other and each title or titles that they write have become their own special universes, universes that have only a passing connection to the rest of the mu. This is shown perfectly in FF where they had to put out a special mini FF series to cover si. So while I believe that cw did change parts of the mu I also believe that any writer is free to ignore those changes if he so wishes.

Mark_S

Quite right. What kind of change do you expect in the Marvel Universe after the Skrull Invasion? Probably none. Anymore than there was any change in the MU after the coming of Galactus or any other world threatening crisis. The desire is to have a world like ours but with super heroes. But unless super heroes are nothing more than super cops, they would have a major effect on the world they live in. But nobody wants to explore that at Marvel and DC. Their worlds are based on the status quo. And there's nothing wrong with that from a moral point of view, It just doesn't make sense from an artisitic or realistic point of view.

Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman on Miracle Man really explored the issue of what effect the existence of a super hero would have on the world.

Sandy Hausler

[Tobias Drake]

I rather like the idea that Tony Stark is a Skrull. It makes perfect sense. I know very few people in this forum believe it, but that's what makes it even more likely to me. It increases the shock value.

That would be a great way to rehabilitate Tony and tie it in with Secret Invasion.

Sandy Hausler

I strongly doubt it simply because it's too easy. It's a quick whitewash that immediately and completely cleans off the character's slate so that none of the consequences of recent events matter. Tony Stark is a highly controversial character who has garnered a lot of attention, both good and bad, of late. To suddenly drop the character and bring back a different Tony Stark with none of the attention and stigma attached to it would completely ruin the character and further damage Marvel's reputation.

By removing everything that makes him interesting, Stark would return to being a B-List Avenger again instead of the A-List center of the Marvel Universe that he is now. I doubt Marvel would shoot themselves in the foot that heavily.

[Sandy Hausler]

I strongly doubt it simply because it's too easy. It's a quick whitewash that immediately and completely cleans off the character's slate so that none of the consequences of recent events matter. Tony Stark is a highly controversial character who has garnered a lot of attention, both good and bad, of late. To suddenly drop the character and bring back a different Tony Stark with none of the attention and stigma attached to it would completely ruin the character and further damage Marvel's reputation.

By removing everything that makes him interesting, Stark would return to being a B-List Avenger again instead of the A-List center of the Marvel Universe that he is now. I doubt Marvel would shoot themselves in the foot that heavily.

Iron Man was never a B list Avenger. He was always an A-list Avenger during the periods when he was an active member.

CW did not make Tony Stark an interesting character. It merely made him a controversial one. I would suspect that more people dislike him than like him at this point, but that's just a guess.

Some heroes have been replaced by Skrulls. Tony has not been acting in a manner consistent with his character (of course, he's not the only one). It would be perfectly reasonable for him to be a Skrull. Since he was at the forefront of CW, an event that worked to the benefit of the Slkrulls it becomes doubly reasonable.

I don't see it being easy. I see it as being a reasonable outcome to an inexplicable story.

Sandy Hausler

[XPac]

I still cant believe people that say CW didnt have much impact on the MU. Not only did it have on the on the spot impact with deaths, alliances broken, etc. It also had a ton lasting impact and ripples we feel today even during Secret Invasion. Like the outcome or not, the impact is there. You hating it doesnt make it disappear.



No, it wouldnt. Just like making Captain America a Skrull wouldnt.
It would make Civil War and the majority of comics from then till now pointless.

I understand you want to return to the previous status quo, but doing a copout of the majority of recent continuity would be a disastrous move by marvel to create credibility in its stories and events.

CW had about as much impact as you can expect from a marvel event... but really that's almost always very very minimal.

Marvel doesn't really ever have "crisis" level events that genuinely change the landscape (and that I feel is a GOOD thing). Ultimately, CW threw out a few good ideas and launced a few new books, but outside a few books the landscape has fallen back into it's previous status quo. And again, I would argue that's a good thing... plenty of books don't need CW directing it's course. If a book like Moon Knight wants to use CW that's great... but if a book like Daredevil wants to completely ignore it that's perfectly fine too.

So again, I'll say that CW did more than most other marvel events... but that simply doesn't amount to much at all. It almost never does. They simply don't need this Crisis events turning the entire universe upside down every few years.

[XPac]

Civil War is still in full affect in the Hulk titles. Green Hulk, Red Hulk, Herc, and Cho have all been in jail, undercover and/or hunted by SHIELD for months now. Even She-hulk, who was pro-reg, has had ongoing grudge against Tony that's spanned three titles (She-hulk, Hulk, and Last Defenders). In the Hulkverse, the SHRA, WWH, and SHIELD are pretty much the only thing anyone ever thinks about. Well... up until their SI tie-ins started anyway.

That's kind of regular status quo for Hulk though. SHIELD and goverment were hunting him down long before CW ever occured.

[Tobias Drake]

Iron Man was never a B list Avenger. He was always an A-list Avenger during the periods when he was an active member.

CW did not make Tony Stark an interesting character. It merely made him a controversial one. I would suspect that more people dislike him than like him at this point, but that's just a guess.

Some heroes have been replaced by Skrulls. Tony has not been acting in a manner consistent with his character (of course, he's not the only one). It would be perfectly reasonable for him to be a Skrull. Since he was at the forefront of CW, an event that worked to the benefit of the Slkrulls it becomes doubly reasonable.

I don't see it being easy. I see it as being a reasonable outcome to an inexplicable story.

Sandy Hausler

More people seem to dislike Tony in the "love to hate him" way than the "absolutely detest him and will never read anything with him in it again". Plenty of people savored seeing Thor pound him, for example. A lot of people enjoyed watching the Hulk smash him in World War Hulk. People who like Tony...well, we like him. And people that hate Tony seem to enjoy hating him.

I know Tony's fans would hate to see him turn out to be a Skrull. And I've heard plenty of Tony's detractors would rather see him punished or struggle to redeem himself than a whitewash "Oh, he was a Skrull, now everyone loves Tony again" cop-out. On both counts, it just seems like a spectacularly bad idea that would completely demolish the past six years of continuity and make nothing that has happened matter in any way, shape, or form. No one could ever trust Marvel again after that.

It would be One More Day for the entire Marvel U.

[Mark_S]

More people seem to dislike Tony in the "love to hate him" way than the "absolutely detest him and will never read anything with him in it again". Plenty of people savored seeing Thor pound him, for example. A lot of people enjoyed watching the Hulk smash him in World War Hulk. People who like Tony...well, we like him. And people that hate Tony seem to enjoy hating him.

I know Tony's fans would hate to see him turn out to be a Skrull. And I've heard plenty of Tony's detractors would rather see him punished or struggle to redeem himself than a whitewash "Oh, he was a Skrull, now everyone loves Tony again" cop-out. On both counts, it just seems like a spectacularly bad idea that would completely demolish the past six years of continuity and make nothing that has happened matter in any way, shape, or form. No one could ever trust Marvel again after that.

It would be One More Day for the entire Marvel U.

I agree, but given who is doing the writing and editing it is not out of the range of possibility, making fans mad isn't something they seem to worry about at marvel. Still I doubt Tony is a skrull, but I personally think that there is not much difference between Tony and your average skrull warrior anyway. Maybe the fake one that showed up in the Savage Land (the one off of the ship) would be a better Tony than the real Tony.

Mark_S

[mikekerr3]

I strongly doubt it simply because it's too easy. It's a quick whitewash that immediately and completely cleans off the character's slate so that none of the consequences of recent events matter. Tony Stark is a highly controversial character who has garnered a lot of attention, both good and bad, of late. To suddenly drop the character and bring back a different Tony Stark with none of the attention and stigma attached to it would completely ruin the character and further damage Marvel's reputation.

By removing everything that makes him interesting, Stark would return to being a B-List Avenger again instead of the A-List center of the Marvel Universe that he is now. I doubt Marvel would shoot themselves in the foot that heavily.

All that applies to Spider-man already, they did a quick fix and destroyed much of the character and he was at the top of the A-list. Mavel has shown willingness to shoot themselves in the foot with grenades.

Do you think Marvel is above a crappy quick fix ? They have show little respect of their characters, as shown by CW and OMD, why would they start now.

[Sandy Hausler]

All that applies to Spider-man already, they did a quick fix and destroyed much of the character and he was at the top of the A-list. Mavel has shown willingness to shoot themselves in the foot with grenades.

Do you think Marvel is above a crappy quick fix ? They have show little respect of their characters, as shown by CW and OMD, why would they start now.


But in this case, the place where they showed disrespect for the character was during CW. By making him a Skrull, they would be showing respect for the character. And it fits. I know I'd rather have the Skrull explanation be the case then believing that Tony is a jerk.

Sandy Hausler

[mikekerr3]

But in this case, the place where they showed disrespect for the character was during CW. By making him a Skrull, they would be showing respect for the character. And it fits. I know I'd rather have the Skrull explanation be the case then believing that Tony is a jerk.

Sandy Hausler

I like stark as a jerk he has always been a jerk. The CW showed him as an authoritarian thug and a Skrull would be a reasonable explanation of that

[Teh m0nk3y]

But in this case, the place where they showed disrespect for the character was during CW. By making him a Skrull, they would be showing respect for the character. And it fits. I know I'd rather have the Skrull explanation be the case then believing that Tony is a jerk.

Sandy Hausler

Not a universal objective view. Of course this whole thing was meant to divide the readers, but it almost feels like we're pushing pretty strong on the subjective button and to hell with those that disagree path.

Also in my eyes: the insult would be the skrull excuse card.

[Herr Mike]

How about this...Tony Stark wasn't replaced by a Skrull. Tony Stark was ALWAYS a Skrull!

That would be a trip.

Still, they've said Tony Stark is not a Skrull. I tend to believe it. I think SI 3 proves it. The Skrull queen is obviously trying to trick him.

[Tobias Drake]

How about this...Tony Stark wasn't replaced by a Skrull. Tony Stark was ALWAYS a Skrull!

That would be a trip.

That WOULD be. He'd be the new Captain Marvel!

[Sandy Hausler]

Not a universal objective view. Of course this whole thing was meant to divide the readers, but it almost feels like we're pushing pretty strong on the subjective button and to hell with those that disagree path.

Also in my eyes: the insult would be the skrull excuse card.

Sorry, my views are only my views. That should be obvious. But yeah, to hell with anyone who disagrees. :biggrin:

Sandy Hausler

[Sandy Hausler]

How about this...Tony Stark wasn't replaced by a Skrull. Tony Stark was ALWAYS a Skrull!

That would be a trip.

Still, they've said Tony Stark is not a Skrull. I tend to believe it. I think SI 3 proves it. The Skrull queen is obviously trying to trick him.

First, I like the idea that Tony was always a Skrull, but it will drive the fanboys nuts (like the Spider-Clone saga did, which is why Marvel changed it).

Second, well maybe he is and maybe he isn't. Maybe Marvel said something so you wouldn't suspect the opposite even when the the Skrull Queen says he is and it would make sense. Maybe Marvel is trying to trick us. I mean why should they tell us key plot points before the story comes out?

Why would the Skrull Queen need to trick him. He is at her mercy. She could shoot him in the head. It may be that he is not a Skrull, but that scene makes no sense if he is not.

Sandy Hausler

[mikekerr3]

Not a universal objective view. Of course this whole thing was meant to divide the readers, but it almost feels like we're pushing pretty strong on the subjective button and to hell with those that disagree path.

Also in my eyes: the insult would be the skrull excuse card.

The CW split the fans on issues of personal values and morals, It split the fans far maore than, I believe, Marvel intended.

The rifts are in areas where people are not as likely to"agree to disagree" and let it slide.

And a Skrull fix would be no more insulting than a 'magic" fix. An Marvel is willing to insult people who didn't like when they did that.

[Monty_Cristo]

The CW split the fans on issues of personal values and morals, It split the fans far maore than, I believe, Marvel intended.

The rifts are in areas where people are not as likely to"agree to disagree" and let it slide.

And a Skrull fix would be no more insulting than a 'magic" fix. An Marvel is willing to insult people who didn't like when they did that.

you're just mad that you were played for a fool. half of your anti-stark arguments have been blown to pieces now that we know Pym was a skrull. the impostor has been in a position to tamper with all of the big decisions.

[Magneto Rocks]

Why would the Skrull Queen need to trick him. He is at her mercy. She could shoot him in the head. It may be that he is not a Skrull, but that scene makes no sense if he is not.

Sandy Hausler

Unless of course, you read the scene in Mighty Avengers #15 which very, very clearly sets out that the Skrulls will not kill Stark.

...Which doesn't actually make a heckuva lot of sense at the pointin time that this decision was reached, but still. (Surely the rest of the Four would be more logical?)

[Expletive Deleted]

First, I like the idea that Tony was always a Skrull, but it will drive the fanboys nuts.As opposed to the fanboys who're currently nuts over his current status quo?

Let's not throw stones. The mere fact that we're posting here and talking about this kind of thing pretty much means we're all living in enormous glass houses, whichever side of a given issue we're on.

[gorthon616]

The CW split the fans on issues of personal values and morals, It split the fans far more than, I believe, Marvel intended.

I don't think it's a battle over values; it's more of a battle over opinions over what is good and isn't good writing. While many of the points argued over facially over "issues" and "values" at the end of the day 99% of all of them devolve to the quality of the story. It's not like anyone here is actually advocating eating babies or anything (apart from me at least).

I mean how many times is the argument "the SHRA is wrong! it allows this to happen!" And the other side goes "Nuh uh! the actual SHRA doesn't say anything about that at all!" And Marvel is just kinda slinking off into a corner hoping no one forces them to make the call one way or the other.

[mikekerr3]

you're just mad that you were played for a fool. half of your anti-stark arguments have been blown to pieces now that we know Pym was a skrull. the impostor has been in a position to tamper with all of the big decisions.


That makes no sense at all.

How does Pym being a Skrull affect what Tony himself did? Where is it shown that Pym did anything evil in Tony's name or subverted Tony's intentions in the CW? Only Tony is responsible for Tony's actions.

None of my arguments about Stark were effected in the least. Pym had input but Stark made the decisions they are therefore his responsiblity.

Where have I ever blamed Stark for a decision that he did not make or agree with? Why would Pym tamper with Starks decisions most of them were to the benifit of the Skrull. Skrull Pym should have been Tony;s biggest cheerleader.

Whether Tony is a Skrull or not he has been one of the most helpful persons helping their cause.

[jackolover]

Alan Moore and Neil Gaiman on Miracle Man really explored the issue of what effect the existence of a super hero would have on the world.

Sandy Hausler

I understand there is some kind of major court case running right now about the Miracle Man.

[Mark_S]

you're just mad that you were played for a fool. half of your anti-stark arguments have been blown to pieces now that we know Pym was a skrull. the impostor has been in a position to tamper with all of the big decisions.

Not completely. Say we find that cw was a complete manipulation by the skrulls, does that make Clor any less repulsive an idea? Or Carol's beating of Julia any less severe? Or the dismemberment of the Living Mummy... well you get the idea. Hank being a skrull helps Tony and Reed a little bit, but it also showcases the fact that these two suposedly super wise men were led around with ease by an imposter. Hardly a good thing for two men who claim to be smart enough to decide the fate of humanity.

I'm not sure yet if cw was a product of skrull manipulation, but if it was or it wasn't the actions of the pro-sra crowd in cw were the best thing the skrulls could ever hope for. And Tony's continued actions of bullying and betrayal in Thor and She-Hulk were icing on the cake.

The sad thing for me is that I don't think marvel will adress much of this. Even now we know that Thor, Iron Man and Bucky will be fighting together and that others may fight together as well. After being hunted, beaten and thrown into a hell prison for life I just can't see all of the anti-sra crowd being willing to fight with the ones who were constantly attacking them, but I can easily see marvel tossing all that under the rug and writing them as fighting together.

Mark_S

[Sandy Hausler]

As opposed to the fanboys who're currently nuts over his current status quo?

Let's not throw stones. The mere fact that we're posting here and talking about this kind of thing pretty much means we're all living in enormous glass houses, whichever side of a given issue we're on.

No, I'm talking about the fanboys who HATED the idea that the Spider-Man they had been reading about was a clone. I mean, who cares? He was a guy who believed he was the original Peter Parker, who had Peter's memories and powers and for all intents and purposes was Peter Parker.

But you're right about glass houses. We all have our things.

Sandy Hausler

[jackolover]

Not completely. Say we find that cw was a complete manipulation by the skrulls, does that make Clor any less repulsive an idea? Or Carol's beating of Julia any less severe? Or the dismemberment of the Living Mummy... well you get the idea. Hank being a skrull helps Tony and Reed a little bit, but it also showcases the fact that these two suposedly super wise men were led around with ease by an imposter. Hardly a good thing for two men who claim to be smart enough to decide the fate of humanity.

I'm not sure yet if cw was a product of skrull manipulation, but if it was or it wasn't the actions of the pro-sra crowd in cw were the best thing the skrulls could ever hope for. And Tony's continued actions of bullying and betrayal in Thor and She-Hulk were icing on the cake.

Mark_S

Your not alone, on that Mike,

In NA : Illuminati, Tony Stark knew that HoM, 198, the attack on Avengers, and Secret War, were creating an atmosphere of fear. Tony was handed the SRA file before the meeting in this issue, but it could have been before NA #15, (and I place NA :Illuminati after NA #16 and after HoM), because in MA #14 (around NA #15), the Skrull meeting mentions the Hulk and the registration. So Skrulls made Maria Hill mention Capitol Hill taking care of Hulk if Tony didn't.

So my feeling is that Planet Hulk and CW were a direct result of Skrull manipulation. The only ones creating an atmosphere of fear, were the Skrulls, not the 4 events mentioned above.

And I wonder if it wasn't Skrulls from SHIELD that lured the Hulk to LA for the Gamma Bomb to send him mad and get the FF to take him down. There have been Skrull agents in SHIELD for as long as The rogue agents of the Savage Land before NA #1.

So, I would put the timeline like this:

MA #14 - Skrulls mention Hulk and Registration
MA#15 - NA introduced to Public
HoM - Wanda gives all MU it's dreams
FF #528 - Hulk lured to LA for Gamma Bomb and explodes
NA :Illuminati - Hill tells Tony about Hulk LA rampage; Illum agree to Planet Hulk; mention Rego
Hulk #88 - 91 - Hulk sent into space by Illum.
NA #16-20 - Hill forces Parker to reveal HoM.
CW #1 - SRA signed into law.

[Mark_S]

I some times wonder if there are actually any real SHIELD agents or if every single agent in the agency is a skrull/HYDRA/AIM/Kree... (fill in the blank) sleeper agent. After SI is over SHIELD should be at the very least overhauled if not trashed all together. Other than hunting down heroes and experimenting on prisoners I don't see a lot of good in the agency.

Mark_S

[Abrojo]

What effects are you referring to? And why is the horrible mischaracterization of the MU's characters in Civil War okay, and the set-up for Secret Invasion that's been going on forever all right, but revealing that Tony Stark is a skrull is not? At least such a reveal would explain why he's been acting so out-of-character over the past few years. (I'd say that would also apply to Captain america, but really it only applies to the Mark Millar versionof Cap. Brubaker and others really do seem to understand the character of Steve Rogers.)

Sry for the delay in responding.

I challenged your original opinion that Civil War didnt change the MU. I am not debating good or bad, like or dislike, shra stuff, etc. That is all subjective.

What is undeniable is that CW did change the status quo and had big effect on the Universe with the list i said in my first post which i am reposting here.

1) Captain America died.

2) Stark is Director of Shield.

3) Fantastic Four got to "enjoy" Black Panther & Storm for a while. (temporary change i admit, but significant for FF fans).

4) 2 quite different Avenger teams.

5) The Initiative.

6) Spider-man might not be known to public anymore, but OMD/BND are an effect of CW. One could say CW also indirectly made Peter Parker single.

And there are probably quite a few i forgot.
You are free to dislike the changes, but they are undeniably there.