Wolverine:Origins not bad this month?

[pharoahe22]

Was it just me, or was Wolverine Origins #26 not a bad read? I always thought that Daniel Way wasn't a terrible writer. he has some good ideas...it just always seemed like he didn't follow through on them and I was underwhelmed. Wolverine's my favorite character, so I always tried to keep up with origins just to see what was going on, but I dropped it and started flipping through it in the stores. The art was definetly more suited for a Wolverine book...and the origin of Daken has been interesting so far. I'm glad Way's trying to flesh out Daken's character, so that he's not 1 dimensional. Not bad so far.

[Congo Jack]

Was it on the first or second page that has Logan calling for the execution of innocent Japanese children? Awful, awful book.

Not to give the impression that I bought this, just looked at the preview on Comics Bullentin.

[Colossus77]

I won't receive my copy till sometime next week but this thread makes it sound like the book has been going bad? I don't normally follow the forums that often so I don't know what online fans think about it but I've found it to be a great read since #1.

[Jackob]

i liked the art better but i am realy not liking how way portrays logans past. i liked when he was a man who has done bad things but they were against his will, but always had a morality. but making him a war criminal i just terrible. is this the same man who infiltrated concentration camps in ww2, that is running them in america. i dont like how they are portraying im. insted of a minipulated hero, he is a monster.

and i dont like it.

[rwsmith]

Yeah, the whole herding up of Japanese-Americans into internment camps and telling the soldiers to execute the children is taking things a bit too far. Logan has done some bad stuff in his past, but he was never downright evil like this! :evilangry:

[just another user]

Surely we should be expecting more out of our comics than "not bad"?

[Jackob]

well if you set the bar low then you wont get dissapointed as often.

but i just came away from this issue with a sick feeling.

[Hi-Fi]

It was horrid. It's making me dislike Logan, and I wanna keep loving him.

[Jackob]

It was horrid. It's making me dislike Logan, and I wanna keep loving him.
for real
it is bad to make the reader hate the protaganist of the story.

and i love wolvie but it is not good to make him into a monster

[Waterlily]

Surely we should be expecting more out of our comics than "not bad"?

Absolutely.

well if you set the bar low then you wont get dissapointed as often.

but i just came away from this issue with a sick feeling.

I did, too. Which I think is the writer's intent, not that I'm condoning it. Having Wolverine do s****y things for shock value... Well, I guess it shouldn't be to surprising. Still, Wolverine came across to me as being particularly s****y.

I'm glad that Daken's finally getting fleshed out...but it's, um, anger issues much? Somebody has mommy issues.

Probably the only one, but I miss Dillon. I am, however, looking forward to the artist after this one (can't remember his name).

[Jackob]

there is a line between a bad guy and an evil guy, and way is showing him to be truely evil with the genocide and all. that is not who wolverine is he has done som bastardly things but he has a line. ways wolverine has no line.

[B. Kuwanger]

I'll admit, as much as I thought I hated the series, I've been buying the last few issues to check out Way's Deadpool. Which is fine with me. But everything else has been very plain, and this book was absolutely terrible. The only thing worse than buying a book about Daken is unknowingly buying a book about Daken and having it be worse than you thought possible.

[pharoahe22]

Was it on the first or second page that has Logan calling for the execution of innocent Japanese children? Awful, awful book.

Not to give the impression that I bought this, just looked at the preview on Comics Bullentin.

Yeah I hate that aspect of it too, but I thought I remembered reading about how Logan was brainwashing by Romulus into doing these things...which is why he always had that undying guilt, even if he couldn't remember why. I could be mistaken, but that's what I thought was going on. If not, then it's awful character butchery.

[DeadXMan]

I liked how Daken's "birth" is simular to Wolverine's

what was different is James had Rose and Daken had no one:frown:

[Jackob]

I liked how Daken's "birth" is simular to Wolverine's

what was different is James had Rose and Daken had no one:frown:
that is the only part of the book i liked, dakens origin is interesting and i like it alot better than making wolverine sabertooth.

[Maestro]

Let's hope it's more than "not bad" when that crossover comes.

[Jackob]

i just hope the crossover doesnt show that wolverine was working with sinister killing babys
or drowning kittens or something that way is trying to do to wolvie

[Fatguy]

Yeah, the whole herding up of Japanese-Americans into internment camps and telling the soldiers to execute the children is taking things a bit too far. Logan has done some bad stuff in his past, but he was never downright evil like this! :evilangry:

SERIOUSLY??

I'm gonna mind wipe that, and pretend that nobody could be THAT bad at writing Wolverine.

[Jota]

there is a line between a bad guy and an evil guy, and way is showing him to be truely evil with the genocide and all. that is not who wolverine is he has done som bastardly things but he has a line. ways wolverine has no line.Exactly! The guy was allways a character with a lot of grey shades but this is not it! This is making him a straight up bad guy, who is impossible to root for.

[DeadXMan]

I still can
He's always said he done things that can never be forgiven.

[Jackob]

I still can
He's always said he done things that can never be forgiven.
but there is a differnce between wet work and genocide

[DeadXMan]

please
Wolverine has killed off two towns on his own
set lose a weapon + subject on Vitnamess villiage
betrayed cap to the Nazis
left the skrulls to die as a glactic happy meal
and killed scads of of people that got in way

He always said he's the best what he did, and what he did ain't pretty

Origins is showing just how unpertty it is

[B. Kuwanger]

Weren't all of those incidents in Origins?

[DeadXMan]

I threw in return to weapon plus
to even it out

so far I think they picked up logan after he went wild in the end of orgins and they let him stay that way.
If he didn't go nuts when they put the adamentium in him he would be just as bad as Creed if not worse.

[Jackob]

I threw in return to weapon plus
to even it out

so far I think they picked up logan after he went wild in the end of orgins and they let him stay that way.
If he didn't go nuts when they put the adamentium in him he would be just as bad as Creed if not worse.
but that is not how wolverine is spose to be, he is a noble spirt that trys to do what is right. not kill for the sake of killing.
and it has been shown in his pre adimantium days as being a good man.
like in origin, and just about every none way version of his past.

[B. Kuwanger]

This issue was a perfect example, I just don't like how Way goes about it. Wolverine pops up in this story to be a terrible douchebag and is then confronted by his victims. It's left to us to sympathize with him because we know his character out of the context of the story, and pretty much out of the context of the entire series.

[Jackob]

exactly we feel sorry for the logan we know, but if some one only knows wolverine from origins they would think that he is just monster with remorse.
i think i will file away the genocide and douchebagery with nightcrawlers demon dad as things i will force my self to forget.

[QuietRiver]

I'm not really getting why you guys don't like Logan being portrayed as a somewhat evilish person in the flashbacks. Isn't part of the point to show how much he's changed in the present? Yeah, he still goes around killing people(like in the X-Force special), but he's not so evil anymore.

[thomasloganx]

Two words, memory implants. Larry Hamma's simple fix still works a decade later.

[B. Kuwanger]

...Haha, welcome. Though I don't know, the whole mystery thing would get complicated beyond interesting if those are still a factor after Logan discovering his entire life.

I'm not really getting why you guys don't like Logan being portrayed as a somewhat evilish person in the flashbacks. Isn't part of the point to show how much he's changed in the present? Yeah, he still goes around killing people(like in the X-Force special), but he's not so evil anymore.
The whole "brainwashed into being awful" doesn't grab me, and like I said, it's like Way is resting on the fact that we've read other books. If you'd only read Origins, you would probably want the zombies to rip him apart. Nothing good really comes from the character in this book, unless flipping over optic blasts is considered enough to make a character worth reading.

[Jackob]

I'm not really getting why you guys don't like Logan being portrayed as a somewhat evilish person in the flashbacks. Isn't part of the point to show how much he's changed in the present? Yeah, he still goes around killing people(like in the X-Force special), but he's not so evil anymore.
no logan is a man who has done bad things but he is not a bad guy, a killer but not a serial killer. a man who has been used, but who trys to do the right thing.

killing kids is not a dark past it is an evil one that is not something that you come back from.

the logan form origin wouldnt kill inocents. the wolverine from logan woulnd kill women and children. this wolverine is not our tragic hero that we have come to love.

[DeadXMan]

but that is not how wolverine is spose to be, he is a noble spirt that trys to do what is right. not kill for the sake of killing.
and it has been shown in his pre adimantium days as being a good man.
like in origin, and just about every none way version of his past.

but all those were glimpses and implants, both silver fox and creed had them done to them. Sabs getting beaten by his father for being a mutant and they had implanted into Silver Fox that Logan rape her.

yes he's a nobile sprit again thanks to Mac and heather, but after he killed Rose the animal took over and rodimus took him in. there's about there's about 70 yrs of bloodshed on his hands.

[Jackob]

but all of his WWII stories he is a good guy, and the implants are not a factor after he got the house of M reverse amnisia from wanda. him being a pawn i can get behind, but knowingly killing inocents is bad. and doesnt jive with everything else we know about him.

[DeadXMan]

it was cover to gain Cap's Trust and after he was killed saving cap.his HF erased the guilt of betrying Steve. And Cap, being Cap forgave him. the other time he and Puck travel back in time to Spian


that's why he said let it go in 'Nam. He was telling him he's not that person anymore, and that is his revenge on them should be. Being the man you are now not the animal hunting it's former masters.

[Waterlily]

I liked how Daken's "birth" is simular to Wolverine's

what was different is James had Rose and Daken had no one:frown:

I think I would've liked it more if more dead babies hadn't been involved. Still, it was interesting. I guess Rose really was a stablizing presence in Logan's childhood.

I'm not really getting why you guys don't like Logan being portrayed as a somewhat evilish person in the flashbacks. Isn't part of the point to show how much he's changed in the present? Yeah, he still goes around killing people(like in the X-Force special), but he's not so evil anymore.

I think some of it is because I just recently read the "Logan" mini that came out. There he's being depicted as being merciful, here... not so much.

[Jackob]

I think I would've liked it more if more dead babies hadn't been involved. Still, it was interesting. I guess Rose really was a stablizing presence in Logan's childhood.



I think some of it is because I just recently read the "Logan" mini that came out. There he's being depicted as being merciful, here... not so much.
exatly he is a good man. the man form logan and the man from origins is not the same guy.
if orgins logan was in the logan mini he would have killed that girl.
logan is a man that knows what is right and wrong he is a man that will cross the line to do what he thinks is right but not for fun.

[thomasloganx]

Ya see the thing with origins is that its a mixed bag a few good things and a lot of bad stuff. Way brought back Cyber, thats cool but there is no way in hell I am going to believe that Logan took a damed Nazi's side over Cap's. There is no way in hell I am going to believe that after Creed raped and murdered Silverfox that Logan is going to take his word that the town was involved in the whole mess.

Logan has been out of character since this thing started. We could be reading stories about Logan's origin about what the relasionship between Romulus, Sinister, Apocalypse, and Project Black Womb and how these relate to the Weapon-x project. What was Brian Xaiver, Marko, and Ryking involvement with the Weapon-X stuff.

So far the only thing that Way has touched on was that James Hudson was somehow involved with Romulus's conspiracy.

I am just disappointed by the entire run.

[DeadXMan]

Ya see the thing with origins is that its a mixed bag a few good things and a lot of bad stuff. Way brought back Cyber, thats cool but there is no way in hell I am going to believe that Logan took a damed Nazi's side over Cap's. There is no way in hell I am going to believe that after Creed raped and murdered Silverfox that Logan is going to take his word that the town was involved in the whole mess.

Logan has been out of character since this thing started. We could be reading stories about Logan's origin about what the relasionship between Romulus, Sinister, Apocalypse, and Project Black Womb and how these relate to the Weapon-x project. What was Brian Xaiver, Marko, and Ryking involvement with the Weapon-X stuff.

So far the only thing that Way has touched on was that James Hudson was somehow involved with Romulus's conspiracy.

I am just disappointed by the entire run.


I'm not, Way's trying to conect all the dots that
every wolverine writer has put down as clues to his past.

and Logan is a mini and is not considered in continiuty unless you want Logan to be Jack the ripper thanks to Wolverine and Gambit: victems or killing an inicent dogface man in carnivel thanks to exile
the only wolverine mini that I know is 100% cannon is CC and Frank's everything else is in the eyes of the reader

[thomasloganx]

everything Marvel publishes takes place in continuity even mini series, that includes Wolverine/Gambit: Victims. The only things that are not part of the 616 continuity are things that happen in alternate universes or futures. Using that logic I can just decide to call every Wolverine story Dan Way writes out of continuity because I don't like it. You know something? You may be on to something. Wolverine was never a dumbass D-bag that Way makes him out to be. I am happy again.

[Jackob]

everything Marvel publishes takes place in continuity even mini series, that includes Wolverine/Gambit: Victims. The only things that are not part of the 616 continuity are things that happen in alternate universes or futures. Using that logic I can just decide to call every Wolverine story Dan Way writes out of continuity because I don't like it. You know something? You may be on to something. Wolverine was never a dumbass D-bag that Way makes him out to be. I am happy again.
i like that.

if i ignore it it is not true.

i feel beter already.

[DeadXMan]

everything Marvel publishes takes place in continuity even mini series, that includes Wolverine/Gambit: Victims. The only things that are not part of the 616 continuity are things that happen in alternate universes or futures. Using that logic I can just decide to call every Wolverine story Dan Way writes out of continuity because I don't like it. You know something? You may be on to something. Wolverine was never a dumbass D-bag that Way makes him out to be. I am happy again.

They molded him into that. " I am what you will become" That's something a drill instructer would say. they caught this young man who has just lost everything he holds dear, his home, his freinds, his love, and his humanity and they gave it killing skills and left everything else out in that canadian forest to die.

And he was the best killer they had, until the Implanting of Adamantium made him reset himself, and was found by Mac and Heather and there he found the man he thought he lost all those years ago
.
And since that time he has been trying to amens and but he always known he done unforgivable things, now we're the extent of what he has done.

Dose this take away what we know of logan since his appreance in Hulk 181?
No, he is still the same wondering Ronin trying to regain his honor in the eyes of his worse crictic, himself.

and you can't see that then you have never been a ture Wolverine fan

[Jackob]

but what about the genuinly good things that wolverine has done in his pre adimantioum past. like in wolverine vol. 3 #32 where he was disrupting a concintration camp. or his search for a peace in japan with itsu. that is not the evil man that is portried in origins.

[Swashbuckler]

This thread cracks me up. The book Wolverine Origins is so bad, we have to discuss how one issue may not have been total shit, just a little shitty.

[DeadXMan]

it's been mentioned in origins thaat he went AWOL a number of times
sometimes it the animal and sometimes it for lack of better term James.

Why would he go Japan in the first place? Cause Smitty gave him a book about Japan.

Romulus played both sides of WWII
he used Logan to kill the head of the hand in 1941 with a still green Rogers
Then in Dec of 41 he use logan turn them in to Sticker, they were gonna kill Steve on the spot but logan took the bullet for Steve instead. AS he laid dying he was hoping he will for get the pain of betraaying his only real friend. When he woke his HF took away the memories. until Wanda brought them back

then in 42 they placed him in the death camp to occupide top officers from the War effort, How do you think the B ritish got the intel on where the General was?
(my no prize attemt to put Logan in cannon)

three years later Logan went to Japan (perhaps to sabotage the radar staions to let the enola gay to get through) and got caught soon afterwards where they put him in another camp

after the fight and the blast from the nuke "james" took over and wanted to find peace. He found Itsu and nearly found the peace he was looking for, but Romulas found him first. and the rest can be read in origins and endings.

[Jackob]

i think that is a fair idea of how it went down, but it still doesnt seem like it would be the same man that is ordering the execution of childeren as the heroic things in his past.

because even during his wet work days he still had a heart.

[DeadXMan]

i think that is a fair idea of how it went down, but it still doesnt seem like it would be the same man that is ordering the execution of childeren as the heroic things in his past.

because even during his wet work days he still had a heart.

yes he had a heart and when all the madness got to him he just shut off and went feral or dissappered to the fronter of Canada, or some remote place until they found him and drug him back.

He was like Creed to an extent but James was still in there fighting them everystep of the way. THey could never remove that heart of mand from the mind of their man made killer. And that's why they focused on Deken and X-23.

When when his foster parents died they took Daken and took out all the peace in him. X didn't even have the luxiery of having loving parents. She knew nonthing but pain, death and the mission.

[thomasloganx]

I think that eventually all the character stuff that does'nt fit will be retconed out through some story elemen or other. Thats why I mentioned the memory implants. I never understood how House of M removed the memory implants and blocks that riddled Logan's mind. I can forsee a story where the Weapon-X program implanted these murderous memories to manipulate Logan into being the best killer he could be.

[DeadXMan]

the Logan files arc explains there were no implants

Logan's healing factor erases the most traumatizing moments of his life in order to heal him mentally

this is also documented in origins after his parents died. He and Rose hid in the barn he had no recollection of the events that transpired. and looked like he was suffering PTSS.

and Logan has mention his memory of Mags pulling the adamtium out was fuzzy

[thomasloganx]

There indeed were implants and outright blocks. False memories implanted in all the Weapon-X subjects by Aldo Ferro the Phsyborg. All of this was revealed in the 2nd volume of Wolverine's series by Larry Hamma. Some of the blocks were removed by the Russian astronaut Epslion Red but many were to deep and some blocks were rooted too deeply into Logan's conciousness. All of this ocurred in Wolverine vol. 2 numbers 48, 49, 50, 60-66

[Disgruntled1]

I dont really see how anyone can really enjoy Way's run when compared to some other truly good Wolverine runs. That being said, I dont get how so many people are saying that Wolverine's character is destroyed or impossible to redeem now. He's always maintained in his own mind that he is the lowest of the low, so I dont really get how anyone is caught off guard by what we are seeing here.

I think what gets a lot of people is that the organization isn't going for full blown MIND CONTROL to get Wolverine to do things. A lot of people find it unacceptable that Wolverine can be made to do these things through anything less than total overide of his will. What the organization is doing instead is actually the smarter move IMO. A mind controlled person usually still tries to fight their programming in some way. Deep inside there is still an aspect of their true personality that hates what they are doing and resists in what way they can. The organization over a long period of time has used punishment to actually warp Wolverine's very personality. They have made him mentally associate being a psychotic killer with being in his own safety zone. He subconsciously knows that fighting his inborn killer urges will result in things he loves being taken from him. And as he gives in to his killer urges more an more his personality is further warped and changed to the point that committing truly horrific acts no longer acts as a blip on his moral radar.

I think the thing to remember is that these flashbacks are not really showing us Logan anymore, even though he's not strictly being mind controlled. They are showing us a twisted version of Logan that is truly like Creed, which is exactly what Logan said he used to be like. In that sense it's being faithful to what Logan has always said about himself.

We can still see that his "true" personality lies in there somewhere. He really did have remorse over appearing as a traitor to Cap, and Seraph while being part of the program did do much to make him more of a man. I really dont think it's Logan we're seeing until someone tries to reach out to him
him being a pawn i can get behind, but knowingly killing inocents is bad. and doesnt jive with everything else we know about him.You guys need to remember that Logan is the guy that used to try to kill his own team mates. Remember Uncanny # 96? Nightcrawler laughed at Wolverine after Storm used her winds to blow him away from Colossus. Wolverine then flipped his lid and tried to kill Nightcrawler, who ports away at the last moment. Banshee says something like,"Woah there laddie, you could have killed him!" And Wolverine says, "Yeah, so what?" In this case it's not just his anger problem that's the issue, but his lack of concern. He didn't think it was wrong to kill somebody for laughing at him. He was very much a violent sociopath.

You need to remember that Logan was very much a killer, and even a killer of innocents back in the day. He had almost no impulse control when angered. He would kill you over even the most trivial matters without a second thought. If you were walking down the street and smudged his boot you were probably going to get impaled or beaten to death. Another example is in Uncanny X-Men # 147. In a flashback Wolverine nearly beats Mac Hudson (at the time his best friend) to death in front of Heather for no reason. He doesn't even know why he did it. No one was controlling Logan at these times, he's just so effed up in the head that he will kill you for no good reason.

[thomasloganx]

I respect that opinion but I still disagree. If you read Weapon-X by Barry Windsor Smith The program brought out the deepest animal from Logan's subconcious and upped his ego. This process left Logan with little to no control over his actions. That is the reason he sought help from Prof. X and the X-men. Those outburst in his early X-men appearancs are out of his control.

The character we see in Origins is very different than the character we see in Get Mystique or in other stories of pre WWII. The WWII period is riddled with errors, Logan started out in the 1st Candadian Parachute Battallion, then he is a part of the Devil's Brigade since WWI but the DB did not exist until WWII.

[DeadXMan]

There indeed were implants and outright blocks. False memories implanted in all the Weapon-X subjects by Aldo Ferro the Phsyborg. All of this was revealed in the 2nd volume of Wolverine's series by Larry Hamma. Some of the blocks were removed by the Russian astronaut Epslion Red but many were to deep and some blocks were rooted too deeply into Logan's conciousness. All of this ocurred in Wolverine vol. 2 numbers 48, 49, 50, 60-66

from Uncvannyxmen.net
http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/issues/showquestion.asp?fldAuto=826

Wolverine (vol. 2) 175
Writer: Frank Terri

First Story :
The issue starts with a recap of last issue‘s revelations. Sabretooth has ripped off computer files and loads of money from the Weapon X program and has used this to buy the assistance of Deathstrike and Omega Red to setup Wolverine. Logan has been rendered powerless thanks to a Weapon-X prototype weapon and lies in front of Sabretooth and the captured Amiko. As Sabretooth gloats and drinks champagne, Logan leaps forward at Creed. Omega Red smashes a bottle into the back of his head knocking him down before tying him up with his tendrils. Sabretooth does some more of his bad guy bit as Red and Deathstrike look on.

Omega Red gets a bit impatient over his payment and he and Sabretooth square off. Lady Deathstrike steps in, trying to keep the peace. While they argue Logan reaches forward and cuts Amiko’s bonds. Suddenly Sabretooth bang Red’s and Deathstrike’s heads together before teleporting himself, Logan and Amiko out of the hotel. Omega Red flips out, having been betrayed by Sabretooth again.

Logan regains consciousness deep in a forest. Sabretooth has changed into his costume and explains to Logan what’s going to happen. He says Logan has two choices. He can either square off with him now or he can try and escape. Either way should he win he will get Amiko and the so called Logan Files that Creed snatched from the Weapon X compound, they are said to carry the true memories of Logan. Wolverine realizes that without his special abilities he hasn’t got a chance against Creed one on one so decides to do a runner and see what he can come up with. Creed is delighted by his choice while Logan is annoyed that he keeps having to run away lately and swears this is the last time.

Meanwhile at Weapon X compound, Kane has tracked Sabretooth’s last teleport and reports it to the Director. The Director tell his troops to get ready and then realizes just where Sabretooth teleported too.

Back in the forest, Creed is stalking Logan. Logan comments that Creed probably doesn’t need his enhanced senses to track him as he knows him so well. Logan also comments that he knows Creed well too and lays a trap. Waiting in a tree Logan spots Creed tracking him. He leaps down and slices him down the back top to bottom. Creed throws Logan into a tree before doing a number on Logan’s already injured foot. Logan uses his other foot to knock Creed back into a spike pit trap and runs off.

Making his way through the forest Logan comes across a place he only knows too well - the original Weapon X compound where the adamantium was bonded to his bones years ago. Wolverine enters the ruins and begins looking around for some medical supplies to fix up his battered body. Unfortunately Sabretooth is waiting and ambushes him. Logan manages to gouge one of Creed’s eyes with a scalpel and start a gas explosion before escaping.

By now the operatives of the Weapon X program have arrived and the Director experiences a flashback to when Logan escaped the compound in mindless state after the adamantium bonding. The Director was one of the soldiers back then and he was cut up by the escaping beast. Kane asks the Director if everything is all right, but he dismisses him.

Wandering around the virtually deserted buildings Logan finds a case marked The Logan Files. He is taken aback that Creed wasn’t lying but then he realizes that Amiko must be nearby too. He finds here all battered, bruised, tied up and very, very dead. Sabretooth is again waiting for him and gloats a bit before Logan and go at it one more time. Creed makes short work of the under-powered, beat up Wolverine before beginning to explain about the Logan Files. Creed opens the casket – it’s empty. It appears the files don’t exist at all.

Meanwhile the Director orders another firing of the weapon that removed Logan’s mutant healing factor. The Target ? Victor Creed. The scientists remind the director that Leech, who empowers the canon is still in pretty bad shape from the last use, and another launch might kill him. Kane points out that then Leech’s unique power would be lost to them, but the Director orders the weapon to be fired anyway.

Creed is still explaining how the Weapon X program never had Logan’s memories. He tells Logan that his healing factor not only works on his body, but also on his mind. Because Logan couldn’t deal with the traumatic events early in his life, the healing factor simply healed his mind over them as if they never happened. Creed plunges his claws deep into Logan’s stomach inflicting a fatal wound but suddenly Creed comes over all strange as he feels the effect of the power dampening weapon. Logan takes advantage of the situation and pops his claws into Creeds neck.

He moves in for the kill, but the Weapon X staff burst in distracting Logan and allowing the injured Creed to teleport out. Logan stands ready to take on the Director’s assault team, but before he gets the chance he kneels over. A doctor runs over to aid him but he turns around and declares him dead !

[Disgruntled1]

If you read Weapon-X by Barry Windsor Smith The program brought out the deepest animal from Logan's subconcious and upped his ego.If you read Weapon X then you know that Logan was known for his violent, eratic, self destructive behavior long before Weapon X ever got their hooks in him. The animal had very much been on the loose before.
This process left Logan with little to no control over his actions. That is the reason he sought help from Prof. X and the X-men. Those outburst in his early X-men appearancs are out of his control.This does not explain why Wolverine thinks in Uncanny # 96 that his homicidal behavior torward Nightcrawler is acceptable. That has nothing to do with control.
The character we see in Origins is very different than the character we see in Get Mystique or in other stories of pre WWII."Get Mystique" Logan was a snake back in the day. I was expecting him to have something to say about the cops killing the bank robbers that attempted to surrender. IMO that wasn't really a great depiction of him either. You can also make the case that Wolverine isn't always "under the influence" of the organization, and that for brief periods of time his original personality slowly takes over until the organization zaps him again, reverting him back to his killer personality.
The WWII period is riddled with errors, Logan started out in the 1st Candadian Parachute Battallion, then he is a part of the Devil's Brigade since WWI but the DB did not exist until WWII.Marvel history is flawed, and that doesn't really concern me too much, even though I am a bit of a WW1-2 nut. The "Death of Logan" arc also made several historical errors. What are you gonna do?

[DeadXMan]

If you read Weapon X then you know that Logan was known for his violent, eratic, self destructive behavior long before Weapon X ever got their hooks in him. The animal had very much been on the loose before.
This does not explain why Wolverine thinks in Uncanny # 96 that his homicidal behavior torward Nightcrawler is acceptable. That has nothing to do with control.
"Get Mystique" Logan was a snake back in the day. I was expecting him to have something to say about the cops killing the bank robbers that attempted to surrender. IMO that wasn't really a great depiction of him either. You can also make the case that Wolverine isn't always "under the influence" of the organization, and that for brief periods of time his original personality slowly takes over until the organization zaps him again, reverting him back to his killer personality.
Marvel history is flawed, and that doesn't really concern me too much, even though I am a bit of a WW1-2 nut. The "Death of Logan" arc also made several historical errors. What are you gonna do?

The whole death of Logan was a rush job to bring his HF back in check.

[thomasloganx]

Regardless of the Teri arch there were implants so it come down to which writer you as an individual prefer. I prefer Larry Hamma's Logan over Way's any day. I did like a lot of Teri's run though. I do not see how you can deny that the project tampered with Logan's memory. Granted his heaing factor does play a role but that dos not change the fact that the implants and blocks were confirmed by third parties, Prof. X and Epsilon Red.

As for Logan's pre WWII personality. Yeh we are talking about a hard guy who has been through the mud, blood and sh#t but I won't buy that Logan murdered an entire community of people on Victor Creed's say so. In Way's book Logan comes off as stupid. The character in Logan: Path of the Warlord (1946?) or Logan: Shadow Society(1964?) show him in a state pre Weapon-X and that character is not the same as Way's Origin's.

As for Logan's attitude during his early X-men appearances, it is my opinion that him losing control is due to his mental problems. And those problems are in great part because of the abuse suffered at the hands of the Professor and his cohorts.

[Waterlily]

I dont really see how anyone can really enjoy Way's run when compared to some other truly good Wolverine runs.

For the most part, I don't, but because I'm interested in the character I keep reading. Some of the ideas I like, but not their execution. I don't want to see the series end, I know they won't replace Way, but I'd love to for Aaron to be the writer - even if he had to go by Way's outline.

That being said, I dont get how so many people are saying that Wolverine's character is destroyed or impossible to redeem now. He's always maintained in his own mind that he is the lowest of the low, so I dont really get how anyone is caught off guard by what we are seeing here.

I think what gets a lot of people is that the organization isn't going for full blown MIND CONTROL to get Wolverine to do things. A lot of people find it unacceptable that Wolverine can be made to do these things through anything less than total overide of his will.

I think that is what was getting to me. It's not really surprising to see a past Wolverine murder men, even certain women. It was surprising to see him giving orders for the men to murder the families. Also, it just seems off that he's not conflicted about giving the orders. When he says, "Believe me, the next generation will only be worse" it comes across that he feels what is happening is justified.

What the organization is doing instead is actually the smarter move IMO. A mind controlled person usually still tries to fight their programming in some way. Deep inside there is still an aspect of their true personality that hates what they are doing and resists in what way they can. The organization over a long period of time has used punishment to actually warp Wolverine's very personality. They have made him mentally associate being a psychotic killer with being in his own safety zone. He subconsciously knows that fighting his inborn killer urges will result in things he loves being taken from him. And as he gives in to his killer urges more an more his personality is further warped and changed to the point that committing truly horrific acts no longer acts as a blip on his moral radar.

I think the thing to remember is that these flashbacks are not really showing us Logan anymore, even though he's not strictly being mind controlled. They are showing us a twisted version of Logan that is truly like Creed, which is exactly what Logan said he used to be like. In that sense it's being faithful to what Logan has always said about himself.

This does make sense. Like I mentioned before, I only just read the Logan mini. And while it may or may not be in-continuity, his depiction in it certainly contrasts with how he's acting in the same time period in Origins. But, even as bad as he could get, I'm not sure if he ever got as bad as Creed, who more than willingly rapes and eats people. Rapist, cannibillistic, kitten-stomping Wolverine. There's a story that's guarenteed to piss people off.

We can still see that his "true" personality lies in there somewhere. He really did have remorse over appearing as a traitor to Cap, and Seraph while being part of the program did do much to make him more of a man. I really dont think it's Logan we're seeing until someone tries to reach out to him
You guys need to remember that Logan is the guy that used to try to kill his own team mates. Remember Uncanny # 96? Nightcrawler laughed at Wolverine after Storm used her winds to blow him away from Colossus. Wolverine then flipped his lid and tried to kill Nightcrawler, who ports away at the last moment. Banshee says something like,"Woah there laddie, you could have killed him!" And Wolverine says, "Yeah, so what?" In this case it's not just his anger problem that's the issue, but his lack of concern. He didn't think it was wrong to kill somebody for laughing at him. He was very much a violent sociopath.

You need to remember that Logan was very much a killer, and even a killer of innocents back in the day. He had almost no impulse control when angered. He would kill you over even the most trivial matters without a second thought. If you were walking down the street and smudged his boot you were probably going to get impaled or beaten to death. Another example is in Uncanny X-Men # 147. In a flashback Wolverine nearly beats Mac Hudson (at the time his best friend) to death in front of Heather for no reason. He doesn't even know why he did it. No one was controlling Logan at these times, he's just so effed up in the head that he will kill you for no good reason.

While I'd heard about how Wolverine was more unpredictably violent in his earlier years with the X-Men, I never read these issues and I don't remember reading these examples before. I didn't realize he'd actually been that bad off in the beginning. It explains why he was so unpopular with some.

Still, all the examples were grown men, was he ever violent towards women and kids outside of a berzerker rage? I heard someone wanted to write him disemboweling Kitty without realizing it (something about she'd startled him while he was eating), but I don't recall anything like that actually happening.

I respect that opinion but I still disagree. If you read Weapon-X by Barry Windsor Smith The program brought out the deepest animal from Logan's subconcious and upped his ego. This process left Logan with little to no control over his actions. That is the reason he sought help from Prof. X and the X-men. Those outburst in his early X-men appearancs are out of his control.

The character we see in Origins is very different than the character we see in Get Mystique or in other stories of pre WWII. The WWII period is riddled with errors, Logan started out in the 1st Candadian Parachute Battallion, then he is a part of the Devil's Brigade since WWI but the DB did not exist until WWII.

To be fair, in BWS, doesn't he say something like, "So I wing some geek with ricochet, like, who gives a toss?" in response to accidently having injured someone at a rifle range. I thought it'd been implied in the story that he wasn't the most stand-up of fellows, even before the programming. Doing things like popping pills and getting drunk and being unpleasant.

In "Get Mystique, he's still written as someone who use to be a b*****d but it comes across more clearly that who he use to be isn't the same as who he is now. And even though he does doublecross his friends, it's obvious that he knows he did something wrong, even as it's happening. A far better read imo.

[DeadXMan]

course it by Aaron.

The he's the next Hamma.

[Congo Jack]

Larry Hama, people! HaMa! :smile:

[Disgruntled1]

The whole death of Logan was a rush job to bring his HF back in check.Yeah, and we've see how successful that plan was.
I prefer Larry Hamma's Logan over Way's any day.Hama's handling of Wolverine makes any of the people who use the character these days look pathetic.
As for Logan's pre WWII personality. Yeh we are talking about a hard guy who has been through the mud, blood and sh#t but I won't buy that Logan murdered an entire community of people on Victor Creed's say so.Personally I dont think anyone can really put limits on what Logan is capable of when in the grips of a berserker rage or in the deepest reaches of total despair. In such a mental state who knows what he could be led to do? And who's to say what Creed said wasn't true in some way?
As for Logan's attitude during his early X-men appearances, it is my opinion that him losing control is due to his mental problems. And those problems are in great part because of the abuse suffered at the hands of the Professor and his cohorts.Yet Weapon X confirms that the Prof and company were just the next step in what was obviously a lengthly history of mental problems. I'm not doubting they compounded the problem, but BWS confirms that Logan was loony bin bound before any of them got there. He was certainly in a downward spiral of depression, drugs, hallucinations, and violent behavior that very easily echos what Way is doing without Project X's intervention.
I think that is what was getting to me. It's not really surprising to see a past Wolverine murder men, even certain women. It was surprising to see him giving orders for the men to murder the families. Also, it just seems off that he's not conflicted about giving the orders. When he says, "Believe me, the next generation will only be worse" it comes across that he feels what is happening is justified.I just assumed it was Wolverine using the cover of the wide spread intense racism Japanese were treated with at the time to fit in and get his mission done. We know Wolverine isn't even remotely racist himself so most of his comments just came across as a smoke screen to me. I think it's a matter of Wolverine being reprogrammed as a soldier who cares only for getting the job done. He simply doesn't care about collateral damage at this point. I'm not sure he's really getting any real enjoyment out of what hes doing, as Creed would have, he simply doesn't care as long as his mission is completed according to all perameters.
But, even as bad as he could get, I'm not sure if he ever got as bad as Creed, who more than willingly rapes and eats people.Wolverine has stated many times that he is every bit as bad as Creed in his own way. I think the difference lies in how they act this out. Creed gets more creative with his atrocities, where Logan at his worst is more strictly a straight killer. Creed may be more predisposed to raping or canibilizing, but Logan goes for massive body counts. I think at the height of their rages Wolverine is actually worse. IMO he has less control over himself in rages. I think the difference is Creed constantly cruises around as a level 4 feral and when triggered jumps to an 8. Wolverine on the other hand seems to walk around as a level 2 feral, but when enraged he skips all the way to a level 9 or 10 and is completely out of control, with no thought other than killing.
While I'd heard about how Wolverine was more unpredictably violent in his earlier years with the X-Men, I never read these issues and I don't remember reading these examples before. I didn't realize he'd actually been that bad off in the beginning. It explains why he was so unpopular with some. Still, all the examples were grown men, was he ever violent towards women and kids outside of a berzerker rage? I heard someone wanted to write him disemboweling Kitty without realizing it (something about she'd startled him while he was eating), but I don't recall anything like that actually happening.No, I dont recall him being particularly irritable around Kitty back then. But by the time she came around he'd wedged into the team dynamic a little better and Claremont had a little better idea of what to do with him thanks to Byrne's influence. Wolverine was at times rude to females, but he'd been a perfect gentleman to Mariko, all the while treating it some what like hunting a nervous deer. He didn't particularly get along with Storm at first, until he proved her opinions of him to be wrong. He was more willing to take orders from her than Cyclops at the time, as he was itching to fight Cyclops at one point, but backed off when Storm said he'd have to go through her first. I'm pretty sure if Banshee or Nightcrawler had said the same thing they'd have been splt open from neck to crotch in a heartbeat. Of course this could have just been Wolverine being a horndog in general.

[thomasloganx]

This disscussion got me thinking and in my free time this weekend I reread Way's Origins and the thing I found was Logan kept stating how "they" used his loved ones to control him or to throw him out of control. That is a pretty good explanation why he would do the bidding of the unseen Romulus. In the WWII arch he and Seraph are together and he follows orders to keep her alive.

When I reread the books it gave me the one thing I lacked the first time, a reason Logan goes along with all this.

I know I come off not liking Way in this disscussion but I actually like a lot of his ideas about Wolverine it the execution that I feel is poor. I think the book as already done an important ting in getting a new artist, now the plotting needs to be tighter.