Worst / Biggest Retcons in X-Men history

[Bamf25]

The title is littered with them, and some have been for the best, others still get fans upset. What are the X-Men's biggest retcons, and did they help or hurt the title?

Jean Grey is not the Phoenix. In my mind the largest Retcon ever, and it still bugs me, a great personal sacrifice and a great saga was knocked down alot of notches with this one.

Gambit was at the Mutant Massacre. Inserting an unseen background character in an old storyline, again changing the old storyline, is always a strecth. It added little to the character.

Xorn Magneto is not really magneto, but a clone. This one still hurts my brain, and ties into taking the heroic Jean death above, and giving her a pathetic death here.

The 3rd Summers Brother. To my knowledge this was always supposed to be Adam X, but was changed at some point giving Vulcan.

Deadly Genesis, again with the unknown prvious secret team.

Lorna is Mags kid, but no she is not, wait 30 years and yes she is Mags kid. This one makes sense to me, but I do not understand the sudden need to change it after all that time.

So here is a short list, post your own favs.

[Mitteloss]

You wouldn't want to include that last retcon in any discussion, most fans are fine with it, but some really, really, arn't...

[HeckBoy]

The title is littered with them, and some have been for the best, others still get fans upset. What are the X-Men's biggest retcons, and did they help or hurt the title?

Jean Grey is not the Phoenix. In my mind the largest Retcon ever, and it still bugs me, a great personal sacrifice and a great saga was knocked down alot of notches with this one.

Gambit was at the Mutant Massacre. Inserting an unseen background character in an old storyline, again changing the old storyline, is always a strecth. It added little to the character.

Xorn Magneto is not really magneto, but a clone. This one still hurts my brain, and ties into taking the heroic Jean death above, and giving her a pathetic death here.

The 3rd Summers Brother. To my knowledge this was always supposed to be Adam X, but was changed at some point giving Vulcan.

Deadly Genesis, again with the unknown prvious secret team.

Lorna is Mags kid, but no she is not, wait 30 years and yes she is Mags kid. This one makes sense to me, but I do not understand the sudden need to change it after all that time.

So here is a short list, post your own favs.I agree with all of your choices. The Phoenix cop-out and Xorneto fiasco are particularly heinous IMO. The rest I rank a slightly bit more acceptable. I actually like the Gambit at the Massacre retcon though. The 3rd Summers brother and the 3rd Magneto kid are unsatisfying as is the whole Deadly Genesis thing. I would dislike Deadly Genesis more, but it did give us Darwin, a quick favorite of mine. I would've much preferred Lorna to have been an independent character though, unrelated to Magneto.

[Mr.EZ]

Sage was always working for Xavier. Give me a break. She was a one note background character in a one note villain group that hasn't been utilized properly since the 70's. No point whatsoever.

[Bamf25]

Well I forgot the whole Psylock / Ravanch (sp? sorry) mess. That storyline has at least 3 retons in and of itself.

And one of my least Favs Nightcrawler is Mystique's kid (which did not bother me since it was implied in X-Men 142), but the father was really the Devil (or close to it) as shown in the Draco. Having dad be a german nobleman that Mystique had lied to and then having her turn the kid over to the circus was just fine, REALLY.

[darknessatnoon]

Sage was always working for Xavier. Give me a break. She was a one note background character in a one note villain group that hasn't been utilized properly since the 70's. No point whatsoever.

Don't be so unpleasant.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/x2.jpg

[Darkchylde]

I wouldn't describe my selection as the worst retcons in X-Men history, but they sure rank as some of the dumbest:

1) Mikhail Rasputin traveling to the past to infect Illyana with the Legacy Virus in New Mutants: Truth or Death. A pointless and unnecessary retcon, if you ask me, written seemingly to drive home the point to fans that the *real* Illyana - not an alternate Limbo version - was the one that died of the Legacy Virus in Uncanny X-Men # 303.

[nikbackm]

Sage was always working for Xavier. Give me a break. She was a one note background character in a one note villain group that hasn't been utilized properly since the 70's. No point whatsoever.

Wasn't the first Hellfire club appearance in 1980 with Uncanny #129?

[ToxicTeen]

Xorn Magneto is not really magneto, but a clone. This one still hurts my brain, and ties into taking the heroic Jean death above, and giving her a pathetic death here.

This remind of this funny clip which talks abouts the X-Men's various deaths and Magneto's previous death. :biggrin:

"That was actually Xorn's twin brother. Pretending to me pretending to be Xorn." ~Magneto

"That defies all logic!"~Beast

[Swashbuckler]

You wouldn't want to include that last retcon in any discussion, most fans are fine with it, but some really, really, arn't...

Polaris fans are always on the ball. I applaud your efforts to continuously stand up the same non-sense day in and day out.

[Pugfugly]

I'm not sure if it can be considered a retcon, but Nightcrawler being the son of an actual demon really irks me. I do, however, enjoy the scene of little baby Kurt "bamfing" to safety at the last second after being dropped off a bridge by Mystique

[psycwave]

Im totally going with the Psylocke/Revanche retcon body swap, mind meld, personality integration, borrowed telepathy mess. Just thinking about it givces me a migrain.

[jmc247]

Lorna is Mags kid, but no she is not, wait 30 years and yes she is Mags kid. This one makes sense to me, but I do not understand the sudden need to change it after all that time.

I liked the first retcon, didn't like the second retcon, liked the third retcon. To quote Forest Gump, "That's all I have to say about that."

[creaky]

I'm not sure if it can be considered a retcon, but Nightcrawler being the son of an actual demon really irks me.

He isn't and never was.

[Pugfugly]

He isn't and never was.

Whoa, what? I need some clarification. I literally had to stop buying comics for a few years right before the last issue of that arc. So Azazel wasn't his dad? Or is my sarcasm detector broken?

[creaky]

Whoa, what? I need some clarification. I literally had to stop buying comics for a few years right before the last issue of that arc. So Azazel wasn't his dad? Or is my sarcasm detector broken?

Azazel was/is not a demon, just an ancient mutant. He was/is part of a demonic-looking race of mutants that inspired the legends of demons. So while Kurt still has the most fan-hated dad in X-men history and has still been the subject of two of the worst X-stories to ever be published, he does not have a drop of demon blood in his veins.

[La Fea]

I personally like the retcon that Sofia was good friends with Beak, which further cemented her "Most Outgoing" award.

But do you think she ever hugged Barnell the way she hugged "Barry"???

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/77/134147-62438-wind-dancer_super.jpg

This could be another thread altogether...!!!

[Slung]

Azazel was/is not a demon, just an ancient mutant. He was/is part of a demonic-looking race of mutants that inspired the legends of demons. So while Kurt still has the most fan-hated dad in X-men history and has still been the subject of two of the worst X-stories to ever be published, he does not have a drop of demon blood in his veins.

But Austen's point was that there were no demons (he believes Christianity to be a huge sham) and that thus the demon mutant is Satan. So, technically, yes Kurt's daddy is not a demon. But he is the Devil.

[frog]

But Austen's point was that there were no demons (he believes Christianity to be a huge sham) and that thus the demon mutant is Satan. So, technically, yes Kurt's daddy is not a demon. But he is the Devil.

However, the Devil is the Prince of Lies, so . . .

[Agent_Torpor]

Worst retcons in x-history? How about sharting all over Morrison's work after he left?

[nikbackm]

Worst retcons in x-history? How about sharting all over Morrison's work after he left?

Technically that does not count as a retcon does it? (Except for the Xorneto thing)

[Pugfugly]

Azazel was/is not a demon, just an ancient mutant. He was/is part of a demonic-looking race of mutants that inspired the legends of demons. So while Kurt still has the most fan-hated dad in X-men history and has still been the subject of two of the worst X-stories to ever be published, he does not have a drop of demon blood in his veins.

That brings up a question that has no place in this thread...but i'll ask it anyways. Is there a definitive answer as to who the first mutant was nowadays? At different points I believe it's been hinted as Xavier, then Wolverine, then Apocalypse. What's the deal?

Hey, I guess that does kinda count as a retcon after all.

[frog]

That brings up a question that has no place in this thread...but i'll ask it anyways. Is there a definitive answer as to who the first mutant was nowadays? At different points I believe it's been hinted as Xavier, then Wolverine, then Apocalypse. What's the deal?

Hey, I guess that does kinda count as a retcon after all.

I believe that Namor is first. At least that's what was said in House of M.

[nikbackm]

I believe that Namor is first. At least that's what was said in House of M.

So Selene and Apocalypse are not mutants?

Guess you can make the case that Selene is a sorceress and not a mutant.
As for Apocalypse, well perhaps something in the Celestial ship he found mutated him like he himself later did with Sinister.

[brundlefly]

As for Apocalypse, well perhaps something in the Celestial ship he found mutated him like he himself later did with Sinister.

The "Rise of Apocalypse" mini revealed that Pocy was a mutant from birth and stated that he was the first mutant. Although, since Selene is older than he is (she was around during the Hyborian Age) and if she is technically a mutant, then she's the oldest. Regardless, it's one of those two, not Namor. I think House of M got confused because of Namor's old nickname, "Marvel's First Mutant," which just refers to him being the first mutant to appear in print, as he was pre-X-Men.

[tornshattered]

I still think curt's dad WAS Mystique and his mom was Irene... The worst retcon was making Jean phoenix again just to kill her! Son of a diddily :D.. How could he do that to her? How?! HHHOOOOOOOOOOOWWW????!!!!!!!! ;(

Bald guys always mess up everything!

[darknessatnoon]

I still think curt's dad WAS Mystique and his mom was Irene...

Seriously, how would this be remotely possible? Irene Adler was ancient when Kurt was born. Does she have a mutant reproductive system, too?

[tornshattered]

Duh! :D well I think that during sex, just when the zygote was impregnated, Mystique absorbed the cell into her own organism and she carried the baby! I know, I know: my fantasy is endless and bizarre. Hey, I could work for FOX :D

[AcesX1X]

Seriously, how would this be remotely possible? Irene Adler was ancient when Kurt was born. Does she have a mutant reproductive system, too?

Duh. Mystique fertilized Irene's frozen egg and Shortpack carried it to Mystique's womb. And then, a young Blindspot made them all forget any of that ever happened.

[Phil Hunn]

I love how people complain about the resurrection of Jean Grey when the original ending was going to have her end up alive anyway - and Jean's heroic sacrifice at the end of the original story was only put there at Jim Shooter's behest. One wonders if the original story would be so fondly remembered if it had ended with the cop-out instead of the evil editor's vision :tongue:

Should she have been resurrected? Probably not. If it had saved us the endless, interminable Dead Parrot Sketch-esque parade of Phoenix retcons, I'd have supported that course of action all the way.

All the way, I tell you. I wonder how different the X-Universe would be with only Days Of Future Past getting endlessly ripped-off - I mean, homaged...

[rage6839]

Bishop
Keeping the MC to himself and betraying the team he idolized. But I might be biased.:evilsmile:

[darknessatnoon]

Bishop
Keeping the MC to himself and betraying the team he idolized. But I might be biased.:evilsmile:

Bishop tried to SAVE the X-Men by killing the baby.

[rage6839]

Bishop tried to SAVE the X-Men by killing the baby.

Bishop tried to stop his future by killing the baby. The X-Men would be fine. Don't disagree with that but his methods leave a lot to be desired, jmho.

[darknessatnoon]

Bishop tried to stop his future by killing the baby. The X-Men would be fine. Don't disagree with that but his methods leave a lot to be desired, jmho.

The X-Men would have ended up in mutant concentration camps with everyone else. That baby needs to die.

[Slung]

The X-Men would have ended up in mutant concentration camps with everyone else. That baby needs to die.

The baby is SAGE! ACCHH!! The humanity!

[psycwave]

The X-Men would have ended up in mutant concentration camps with everyone else. That baby needs to die.

Finally someone with some sense.:evilsmile: Does that brat even have a name? Im kidding about the baby death not the name...but then again what was the purpose of the baby again other than to make Bishop a traitor?..

[Slung]

Finally someone with some sense.:evilsmile: Does that brat even have a name? Im kidding about the baby death not the name...but then again what was the purpose of the baby again other than to make Bishop a traitor?..

To continue to tease Jean fans and get their money. Same as the whole Secret Invasion thing and Phoenix Crapsong.

[darknessatnoon]

Finally someone with some sense.:evilsmile: Does that brat even have a name? Im kidding about the baby death not the name...but then again what was the purpose of the baby again other than to make Bishop a traitor?..

Bishop is not a traitor. He is the most loyal X-Man. It was a nice bonus that he shot the memory stealing, Sage-abusing, Jean Grey abusing, Petra and Sway killing Professor.

He did it for Sage!

[psycwave]

Bishop is not a traitor. He is the most loyal X-Man. It was a nice bonus that he shot the memory stealing, Sage-abusing, Jean Grey abusing, Petra and Sway killing Professor.

He did it for Sage!

True. DEATH TO XAVIER!!!

[Slung]

Bishop is not a traitor. He is the most loyal X-Man. It was a nice bonus that he shot the memory stealing, Sage-abusing, Jean Grey abusing, Petra and Sway killing Professor.

He did it for Sage!

He has a secret man-crush on Sage. Its sexy!

[Congo Jack]

WORST:
Deadly Genesis
Wolverine was born with bone claws

BEST:
Gambit's role in the morlock massacre

The Phoenix/Jean switcheroo I can live with considering it was Byrne's doing and endorsed by Claremont; the architechts of the original story.

[Mr.EZ]

Wasn't the first Hellfire club appearance in 1980 with Uncanny #129?

April of 1980 was Sage's first appearance. I still stand by my original statement, just with a different decade.

[rage6839]

The X-Men would have ended up in mutant concentration camps with everyone else. That baby needs to die.

Don't disagree with you, the red-headed wannabe Hitler needs to be given a pacifier with arsenic on it. Just felt Bishop could have handled it better. Offing the team you're trying to save doesn't help.

[darknessatnoon]

He has a secret man-crush on Sage. Its sexy!

Not so secret.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/bogan.jpg

[DeadXMan]

I love how people complain about the resurrection of Jean Grey when the original ending was going to have her end up alive anyway - and Jean's heroic sacrifice at the end of the original story was only put there at Jim Shooter's behest. One wonders if the original story would be so fondly remembered if it had ended with the cop-out instead of the evil editor's vision :tongue:



There's a what if about that written byCC. not bad, but I liked Shooter's ending better.

[rage6839]

He has a secret man-crush on Sage. Its sexy!

OK, I am confused. Is there something about Sage we don't know about?:smile:

[Slung]

OK, I am confused. Is there something about Sage we don't know about?:smile:

Have you kept up with the D-List continuity thread? She's got quite a colorful history!

[Phil Hunn]

Bishop
Keeping the MC to himself and betraying the team he idolized. But I might be biased.:evilsmile:

Yes, I'm still puzzled by this. If the Messiah child was such a big threat to his future, then surely Bishop would have said so from the beginning, rather than going "Hey, wait a minute... despite the fact that I only showed up here to chase down some criminals, I always knew that that kid is the reason my future falls to bits! I MUST KILL HER!"

Stupid retcon. Almost as dumb as randomly making him Aboriginal and giving him a first name out of thin air - and then having every character act as if they'd been using said first name all along...

[Slung]

The Phoenix/Jean switcheroo I can live with considering it was Byrne's doing and endorsed by Claremont; the architechts of the original story.

NOT endorsed by Claremont. He was pissed off that they brought Jean back in such a manner. He did his darned-est for the rest of his X-Men run to soften the wicked blow of Byrne's hack-ness and state Jean was always Phoenix.

[DDM]

WORST:
The Phoenix/Jean switcheroo I can live with considering it was Byrne's doing and endorsed by Claremont; the architechts of the original story.

Chris Claremont almost quit Uncanny X-Men when he heard about X-Factor through then editor, Ann Nocenti; she broke the news to Claremont at a bar or pub & gave him time to lose his temper in front of her instead of Jim Shooter. Afterwards, Chris Claremont used several plot elements of Jean's sister, Sarah or Tessa to be the 5th mysterious member. Not long afterwards, Rachel Summers officially became the second Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #199...

[darknessatnoon]

NOT endorsed by Claremont. He was pissed off that they brought Jean back in such a manner. He did his darned-est for the rest of his X-Men run to soften the wicked blow of Byrne's hack-ness.

He was definitely pissed about Jean.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie2.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie3.jpg

[DDM]

1) The original Jean Grey resurrection in The Avengers #263 & Fantastic Four #286 which shows Jean Grey to be separate from Phoenix. Jea Grey reclaimed her Marvel Girl identity for X-Factor. This retcon works well only if Jean NEVER becomes Phoenix again which did not happen.

2) The Kwannon-Revanche mess introduced in X-Men #20-21; the origin told in X-Men #31-32 just made things worse. I got the impression even Fabien Niceaza himself was more confused he attempted to explain the Psylocke-Revanche connection.

3) The whole X-Men: Deadly Genesis retcon which basically crapped all over Giant Size X-Men #1 & reinforced the idea that Charles Xavier is about as fanatical as any X-Men villain. Vulcan is a forgettable villain too.

[rage6839]

Have you kept up with the D-List continuity thread? She's got quite a colorful history!

I am intrigued and scared at the same time. Will check it out though.


Stupid retcon. Almost as dumb as randomly making him Aboriginal and giving him a first name out of thin air - and then having every character act as if they'd been using said first name all along...

Only because Claremont wrote the best Bishop story imho, can I forgive him for this. It was totally unnecessary and added nothing to Bishop.

[Phil Hunn]

NOT endorsed by Claremont. He was pissed off that they brought Jean back in such a manner. He did his darned-est for the rest of his X-Men run to soften the wicked blow of Byrne's hack-ness and state Jean was always Phoenix.

Yeah, because that would have done wonders for her character.

"It's not fair! I wanted Jean to be a mass-murderer and get away with it!"

Sorry, no dice...

[psycwave]

1) The original Jean Grey resurrection in The Avengers #263 & Fantastic Four #286 which shows Jean Grey to be separate from Phoenix. Jea Grey reclaimed her Marvel Girl identity for X-Factor. This retcon works well only if Jean NEVER becomes Phoenix again which did not happen.

2) The Kwannon-Revanche mess introduced in X-Men #20-21; the origin told in X-Men #31-32 just made things worse. I got the impression even Fabien Niceaza himself was more confused he attempted to explain the Psylocke-Revanche connection.

3) The whole X-Men: Deadly Genesis retcon which basically crapped all over Giant Size X-Men #1 & reinforced the idea that Charles Xavier is about as fanatical as any X-Men villain. Vulcan is a forgettable villain too.


On your points:
1. You speak much truth

2. You are very wise

3. This is where we disagree. I actually liked Deadly Genesis and it brought in Darwin so thats another plus. The icing on the cake is that it reinforces my thoughts that Xavier must die.

[Slung]

Yeah, because that would have done wonders for her character.

"It's not fair! I wanted Jean to be a mass-murderer and get away with it!"

Sorry, no dice...

Phil, you and I usually agree, but with this, I've got to disagree. Phoenix was a powerful story because it WAS Jean. The retcon ruined that. And Jean still has the whole mental rape and pillaging by Mastermind and Emma that drove her insane to fall back on.

[Madrox84]

In my opinion the worst/biggest retcon in the history of the X-Men books is the Jean Grey/Phoenix retcon from the start of the first X-Factor series. It was un-neccesary and guts the Dark Phoenix Saga (one of the greatest X-Men Stories ever).

[B. Kuwanger]

I can't bring myself to think the same. I actually thought it was a pretty clever twist that unfortunately didn't yield much good. I don't really go for getting rid of the original five. And it'd be hard to be fond of Jean if in the long term she went down as some background damsel that suddenly got powerful and freaked out and killed a bunch of people.

But ANYWAY. Daken, Daken, Daken, Daken, Daken.

[DDM]

I can't bring myself to think the same. I actually thought it was a pretty clever twist that unfortunately didn't yield much good. I don't really go for getting rid of the original five. And it'd be hard to be fond of Jean if in the long term she went down as some background damsel that suddenly got powerful and freaked out and killed a bunch of people.

But ANYWAY. Daken, Daken, Daken, Daken, Daken.

X-Men was cancelled as of X-Men #66 in 1970, but ran reprints for the 5 years; therefore, Marvel released Giant Size X-Men #1 with the new X-Men of Storm, Colossus, Wolverine, Banshee, Sunfire, & Thunderbird to rescue the original team--save Cyclops--from Krakoa. Over time, the new X-Men built up an audience with each consecutive story. The rest is history.

I just think X-Men: Deadly Genesis sh*ts all over Giant Size X-Men #1 with the retcon of the so-called other team before the other mutants rescued the original X-Men. The editors show a lack of respect for Giant Size X-Men #1 & it's legacy with this story since Xavier looks to be more of a villain than a hero.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

CC showed over time a lack of respect towards Xavier and the 05.

I call it unintentional Karma. It happens.

[Slung]

CC showed over time a lack of respect towards Xavier and the 05.

I call it unintentional Karma. It happens.

CC has ALWAYS loved Jean. She's one of his favorites that he actually doesn't suck at writing!

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

CC has ALWAYS loved Jean. She's one of his favorites that he actually doesn't suck at writing!

Dark Wolverine Saga and the epic romance that is Logan and Jean...?? WTF, my friend...? Especially in light of your comments regarding how she can function just fine without her man. Just... what???

I don't even like Red that much and my heart totally went out for her.

[Slung]

Dark Wolverine Saga and the epic romance that is Logan and Jean...?? WTF, my friend...?

I don't even like Red that much and my heart totally went out for her.

Well, that never happened, now did it. But he DOES love Jean. And he actually writes her really well.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Well, that never happened, now did it.

The End...???!!!

But he DOES love Jean. And he actually writes her really well.

Sure. In a Storm: The Arena kind of way. Or in a 'could've totally, like, been a Claremazon had I written her first' kind of way, I suppose. Or, more to the point, 'she's an awesome character when she has the love of a man to keep her sane and whole'.

[Slung]

The End...???!!!



Sure. In a Storm: The Arena kind of way. Or in a 'could've totally, like, been a Claremazon had I written her first' kind of way, I suppose. Or, more to the point, 'she's an awesome character when she has the love of a man to keep her sane and whole'.

His characterization of her was the only good thing about his Revolution run. She rocked those issues hard. Without a man and NOT in a Claremazon sort of way.

[Swashbuckler]

His characterization of her was the only good thing about his Revolution run. She rocked those issues hard. Without a man and NOT in a Claremazon sort of way.

It was a total Clarmazon sort of way. She basically became the new Storm.

[Slung]

It was a total Clarmazon sort of way. She basically became the new Storm.

She was amazing and I hearted her. Hard. She so wasn't a new Storm. We already had the original Storm. She was Jean. And she kicked ass without all the focus being on her. Gambit was the leader, Storm was the words of wisdom, Beast was the funny man, Cable was the gun-guy and Jean was the ass kicker. It was hot.

[creaky]

But Austen's point was that there were no demons (he believes Christianity to be a huge sham) and that thus the demon mutant is Satan. So, technically, yes Kurt's daddy is not a demon. But he is the Devil.

I'm pretty sure Mephisto, Belasco and every actual demon that has showed up in Marvel continuity since then would object to that. Austen may have wanted it that way, but it's not how it is.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

His characterization of her was the only good thing about his Revolution run. She rocked those issues hard. Without a man and NOT in a Claremazon sort of way.

The End and Logan/Jean still was his masterplan had !Evil!Lee! and those mean editors hadn't gotten in the way.

Think of the big picture, dear.

[Jota]

I agree with everybody that hated the Psyloke/Kwanon thing. That was horrible and senseless! I also doubt even Nicieza knew what he was doing in the end.

[DDM]

CC showed over time a lack of respect towards Xavier and the 05.

I call it unintentional Karma. It happens.

Chris Claremont seems to like almost all the original X-Men, particularly Jean Grey & Hank McCoy given Beast's extended guest appearances in Uncanny X-Men #111-114, Uncanny X-Men #125, & Uncanny X-Men #134-137 & Jean's dramatic transformation from Marvel Girl to Phoenix & her rejoining the team after several adventures as Phoenix. Chris Claremont kept Angel on the team up to Uncanny X-Men #148, although John Byrne had left the book with Uncanny X-Men #143. Beast could not rejoin the X-Men given his permanent status, at the time, among The Avengers then his extended time with The Defenders before forming X-Factor.

Iceman & Angel also joined The Defenders, making them unavailable for Uncanny X-Men.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Without a man and NOT in a Claremazon sort of way.

But without a man that isn't Cyclops...?

I mean, come on, according to CC, just about *everyone* is better when Cyke's NOT around. Sole exception seems to be Decimation Emma and even then it was more about taking cheap shots at character that were leading the x-men and weren't Storm.

Anyway, my point is, it ain't saying much.

Chris Claremont seems to like almost all the original X-Men, particularly Jean Grey & Hank McCoy given Beast's extended guest appearances in Uncanny X-Men #111-114, Uncanny X-Men #125, & Uncanny X-Men #134-137 & Jean's dramatic transformation from Marvel Girl to Phoenix & her rejoining the team after several adventures as Phoenix. Chris Claremont kept Angel on the team up to Uncanny X-Men #148, although John Byrne had left the book with Uncanny X-Men #143. Beast could not rejoin the X-Men given his permanent status, at the time, among The Avengers then his extended time with The Defenders before forming X-Factor.

Iceman & Angel also joined The Defenders, making them unavailable for Uncanny X-Men.

I said he showed a lack of respect over time. Never said anything about him hating them all 24/7. Hell, I don't even recall saying he hated Cyke since day one.

Point is, the younger and more innocent years hardly count for much in the big picture.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Double post.

[psycwave]

I'm pretty sure Mephisto, Belasco and every actual demon that has showed up in Marvel continuity since then would object to that. Austen may have wanted it that way, but it's not how it is.

I say we retcon Austen out of existence, from Kurt being the son of the devil to his completely unreasonable killing of Jesse Bedlam.

[Naela]

So long as Nursie Annie gets a horrible, horrible death.

[Novaya Havoc]

Chris Claremont seems to like almost all the original X-Men, particularly Jean Grey & Hank McCoy given Beast's extended guest appearances in Uncanny X-Men #111-114, Uncanny X-Men #125, & Uncanny X-Men #134-137 & Jean's dramatic transformation from Marvel Girl to Phoenix & her rejoining the team after several adventures as Phoenix. Chris Claremont kept Angel on the team up to Uncanny X-Men #148, although John Byrne had left the book with Uncanny X-Men #143. Beast could not rejoin the X-Men given his permanent status, at the time, among The Avengers then his extended time with The Defenders before forming X-Factor.

Iceman & Angel also joined The Defenders, making them unavailable for Uncanny X-Men.

Then how do you explain Angel and Beast being recurring characters in the Dazzler corner of the mutant universe, but never appeared at all during Uncanny?

Hmm?

[KiplingKat]

Deadly Genesis was a terrible and completely unnecessary retcon in order to make Xavier more "bad", however given the events of the 1990's, this was simply overkill, introduced a collection of lame character and killed off a longstanding member of the X-Verse as a plot device.

Lorna being Mags kid was a very weak attempt to "make her interesting" by a writer whom most agree his entire run was crap and resulted in her ultimate destruction as a viable interesting character, turning her into Magneto's parrot. Nor does the situation Austin set up make sense in terms of Magneto's character. Despite what some people may say, most fans are dissatisfied with that situation. However, if they attempt to say so on the Polaris appreciation thread, they get jumped so they just leave the thread. Go to most other boards you will see the "Lorna being Mags kid is great!" group is the minority. Either people don't care (the true majority), or they think the entire idea is stupid and think the Lorna needs to be given back to PAD to save her.

Gambit being part of the Mutant Massacre was unnecessary and was only used to cause more angst between he and Rogue.

Kurt being the son of a demon...while not being necessarily a retcon, just is...not only was it lame and annoying, but went against everything the character stood for. It also means he isn't even a mutant anymore, but a magical being. Also the revelation that Kurt's priesthood order was a illusion was...just stupid and mean-spirited feeling.

However, the Xorn retcon was necessary and actually makes more sense in terms of both character and continuity. Just how did "Magneto" manage to hide under the noses of Xavier and Wolverine for a year? (BTW-Xorn was not Magneto's "clone", but simply Xorn gone mad on Kick/John Sublime into thinking he was Magneto).

[KiplingKat]

Then how do you explain Angel and Beast being recurring characters in the Dazzler corner of the mutant universe, but never appeared at all during Uncanny?

Hmm?

Actually, Hank did have a role in Uncanny during two arcs, the first of which was the time Magneto kidnapped the X-men and held them in his underground base and the Dark Phoenix saga.

Hank was part of the Avengers at that time, but CC used him as much as he could get him away from Avengers.

Angel was also part of the Dark Phoenix Saga.

[jmc247]

He was definitely pissed about Jean.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie2.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie3.jpg

What issue is that from?

[KiplingKat]

What issue is that from?

That's part of Inferno. Hold on, I'll look it up.

[jmc247]

To continue to tease Jean fans and get their money. Same as the whole Secret Invasion thing and Phoenix Crapsong.

As long as Jean fans keep buying or they get tired of Emma they aren't going to bring her back.

[psycwave]

What issue is that from?

Uncanny X men 233. When the aussie x men(BEST X TEAM EVER) were going up against the Brood. Maddie saw an interview with Scott and Jean during their X-factor days punched the screen, passed out, and had the dream which started her descent into the Goblyn Queen*sigh*:evilangry:

[jmc247]

Uncanny X men 233. When the aussie x men(BEST X TEAM EVER) were going up against the Brood. Maddie saw interview with Scott and Jean during their X-factor days punched the screen, passed out, and had the dream which started her descent into the Goblyn Queen*sigh*:evilangry:

Ah, I remember the whole Maddie/Scott/Phoenix/Jean/Goblyn Queen stuff getting convoluted.

[darknessatnoon]

What issue is that from?

Uncanny 233.

It's a wonderful piece of CC anti-Jean propaganda.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie4.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie5.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie6.jpg

[KiplingKat]

Uncanny 233.

It's a wonderful piece of CC anti-Jean propaganda.



How is that anti-Jean? I see it more being anti-Scott.

[jmc247]

Uncanny 233.

It's a wonderful piece of CC anti-Jean propaganda.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie4.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie5.jpg

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/maddie6.jpg

I had never thought CC hated Jean, I was under the impression she was one of his favorites. He had both Jean and Maddie play a big role in his recient X-Men the End.

[KiplingKat]

Uncanny X men 233. When the aussie x men(BEST X TEAM EVER) were going up against the Brood. Maddie saw an interview with Scott and Jean during their X-factor days punched the screen, passed out, and had the dream which started her descent into the Goblyn Queen*sigh*:evilangry:

Good call. It predates Inferno, my bad.

[DungeonmasterJim]

I hate retcons that undermine or invalidate what Stan and Jack did the most. So I'd have to go with CC's Sage being the first X-Men student. Has anyone even bothered to write Sage besides Claremont?

And I pretty much agree with others on the other retcons:

Polaris as a Magneto kid is to cliche.

Deadly Genesis was really annoying and screamed retcon to the max instead of being a seamless addition to X-Men lore.

I collected Uncanny back in the 90's but hardly read them so the Betsy/Kwanon thing doesn't really bother me though.

Jean coming back rather sucks but I never really cared for her as a character except as Dark Phoenix.

DM Jim

[darknessatnoon]

I hate retcons that undermine or invalidate what Stan and Jack did the most. So I'd have to go with CC's Sage being the first X-Men student. Has anyone even bothered to write Sage besides Claremont?


This is false information; in fact, lies. But I cannot discuss it right now.

.... ...................... :mad: :mad: :mad:

CC did not like Jean for a period of time.

Madelyne was a great character though. CC took a story opportunity and ran with it. He organically developed her character, which was a first (and last) for him.

[jmc247]

Jean coming back rather sucks but I never really cared for her as a character except as Dark Phoenix.

Except Dark Phoenix isn't Jean it is a seperate entity/character.

[psycwave]

Good call. It predates Inferno, my bad.

No harm done, no one is perfect...well except for Psylocke.

[darknessatnoon]

How is that anti-Jean? I see it more being anti-Scott.

It's both. CC always mistreated Scott (in fact, I bought it and hated Cyclops for years), but in this scene Jean is the passive man-stealer while Scott is the more active sadist.

[jmc247]

CC did not like Jean for a period of time.


You think he prefered Madelyne over Jean?

[KiplingKat]

Except Dark Phoenix isn't Jean it is a seperate entity/character.

She didn't start out that way. Dark Phoenix was originally meant to be Jean. That retcon didn't happen until Jean reappeared FF #286 (well, technically Avengers #263).

[psycwave]

You think he prefered Madelyne over Jean?

I personally hated all those fiery redheads...well except for Firestar:tongue:

[KiplingKat]

It's both. CC always mistreated Scott (in fact, I bought it and hated Cyclops for years), but in this scene Jean is the passive man-stealer while Scott is the more active sadist.

It's a dream sequence in which Madeylne is coping with Scott's abandonment. How is Madeylne supposed to think of Jean in that circumstance?

CC wrote it from Madelyne's perspective, that doesn't mean he "hated Jean".

[DungeonmasterJim]

Except Dark Phoenix isn't Jean it is a seperate entity/character.


I realize this but the story rings more awesome for me with Jean as Dark Phoenix and not some alien thing pretending to be her.

DM Jim

[darknessatnoon]

You think he prefered Madelyne over Jean?

Oh, most assuredly. Madelyne was truly a sympathetic victim. But then she was literally demonized in Inferno. She let anger overcome her. It's that red-head theme. And then Scott and Jean became official "right," in retrospect.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/GoblinPrince.jpg

[Slung]

It's a wonderful piece of CC anti-Jean propaganda.


You are incorrect. KiplingKat here though:
How is that anti-Jean? I see it more being anti-Scott.
Is on the money.

As long as Jean fans keep buying or they get tired of Emma they aren't going to bring her back
You are a Lorna fan. You must be on our side. The red and green forever!

I had never thought CC hated Jean, I was under the impression she was one of his favorites. He had both Jean and Maddie play a big role in his recient X-Men the End.
CC does love Jean.

Except Dark Phoenix isn't Jean it is a seperate entity/character.
Those are bold-faced lies by the master of lies, John Byrne. Do not let his evil taint you.

[Slung]

She didn't start out that way. Dark Phoenix was originally meant to be Jean. That retcon didn't happen until Jean reappeared FF #286 (well, technically Avengers #263).

And has been consequently erroded away by Morrison, Claremont's work in the Classic X-Men backup stories and Pak. To the point now where no writer even mentions a separate entity. Only lame bio's by bitter fans still contain the Byrne retcon.

[jmc247]

You are a Lorna fan. You must be on our side. The red and green forever!

I am on your side, I would love for Jean to come back, except Marvel thinks right now they can keep Jean fans buying their comics with just giving her fans crumbs. It isn't too different then Lorna fans feel right now.

[Slung]

I am on your side, I would love for Jean to come back, except Marvel thinks right now they can keep Jean fans buying their comics with just giving her fans crumbs. It isn't too different then Lorna fans feel right now.

I'd love to see Lorna and Jean return together and start their own X-Team. I think that'd be hot.

[psycwave]

I am on your side, I would love for Jean to come back, except Marvel thinks right now they can keep Jean fans buying their comics with just giving her fans crumbs. It isn't too different then Lorna fans feel right now.

I would rather see Maddie return before the red harlot known as Jean Grey!! Jean's gone, Xavier you're next!!! Muahahahaha:evilsmile:

[darknessatnoon]

It's a dream sequence in which Madeylne is coping with Scott's abandonment. How is Madeylne supposed to think of Jean in that circumstance?

CC wrote it from Madelyne's perspective, that doesn't mean he "hated Jean".

I am sorry you disagree, but I provided pictoral evidence for my claims. Pictures do not lie.

[jmc247]

I'd love to see Lorna and Jean return together and start their own X-Team. I think that'd be hot.

If I controlled Marvel I would certainly see great value in bringing Jean and Lorna back together, except Emma is Marvel's mutant queen bee right now and no woman dare be allowed to threaten her place.

[KiplingKat]

I'd love to see Lorna and Jean return together and start their own X-Team. I think that'd be hot.

I'm on board with that. Something to offset Scott's "militarization" of the X-Men. A friend of mine in the LCBS pointed out that Scott is not a teacher, he's a solider, and without Jean or Ororo or Kurt (who has been whitewashed into wallpaper) to balance him, he's goes off the deep end like he has.

[KiplingKat]

I am sorry you disagree, but I provided pictoral evidence for my claims. Pictures do not lie.

No, but your interpretation of them can be blatantly skewed by anti-CC bias.

[psycwave]

If I controlled Marvel I would certainly see great value in bringing Jean and Lorna back together, except Emma is Marvel's mutant queen bee right now and no woman dare be allowed to threaten her place.

For she is a queen and queen's conquer!!!

[jmc247]

I'm on board with that. Something to offset Scott's "militarization" of the X-Men. A friend of mine in the LCBS pointed out that Scott is not a teacher, he's a solider, and without Jean or Ororo or Kurt (who has been whitewashed into wallpaper) to balance him, he's goes off the deep end like he has.

I don't think Brubaker intends us to think he has gone off the deep end, quite the opposite.

[Slung]

If I controlled Marvel I would certainly see great value in bringing Jean and Lorna back together, except Emma is Marvel's mutant queen bee right now and no woman dare be allowed to threaten her place.

They can take her with them. Dangle the chance to teach and not be part of some military outfit in front her face and she'll follow them anywhere. She'll just have psychic sex with Scott from the other side of the world while they argue over the direction they see mutantkind going in.

[darknessatnoon]

No, but your interpretation of them can be blatantly skewed by anti-CC bias.

NOT AT ALL.

For I agree with CC and Madelyne. Jean is heinous.

I loved this story arc. As I claimed earlier, it was the one truly organic character development of his entire career.

[KiplingKat]

I don't think Brubaker intends us to think he has gone off the deep end.

Bru? No. Kyle, Yost, and Guggenhiem? Yes.

[jmc247]

They can take her with them. Dangle the chance to teach and not be part of some military outfit in front her face and she'll follow them anywhere. She'll just have psychic sex with Scott from the other side of the world while they argue over the direction they see mutantkind going in.

There is a dream to follow.

[Slung]

NOT AT ALL.

For I agree with CC and Madelyne. Jean is heinous.

I loved this story arc. As I claimed earlier, it was the one truly organic character development of his entire career.

Fortunately we have Sage to make up for how horrible a character Jean is. Sage being the epitome of a great character and all. :rolleyes:

[psycwave]

NOT AT ALL.

For I agree with CC and Madelyne. Jean is heinous.

I loved this story arc. As I claimed earlier, it was the one truly organic character development of his entire career.

Dn@n you agree with CC and Maddie. Now i agree with you. Let us not forget about "End Of Greys" That was a fantastic story. If only they woulda got Rachel...

[darknessatnoon]

swallows own bile

Can I get you something to wash that bile down with?

Dn@n you agree with CC and Maddie. Now i agree with you. Let us not forget about "End Of Greys" That was a fantastic story. If only they woulda got Rachel...

You're right. That was a good story. I am sad they "missed" Rachel.

[Slung]

There is a dream to follow.

Lets start a petition! Dreams can come true!

[jmc247]

Lets start a petition! Dreams can come true!

Maybe, Jean and Lorna can ditch their thing for Summers brothers as well and find happiness and love with each other.

Summers brothers will be the death of them, in Jean's case it will be the death of her again. And, that pairing would bring in more readers then Scott/Emma. It would raise young male readership which is what Marvel want's isn't it? hehehe

[Bamf25]

CC has ALWAYS loved Jean. She's one of his favorites that he actually doesn't suck at writing!


I think CC killing Jean (partially being forced) actually supports that he loves the character in an odd fashion. You give chars you like good stories, and Jean becoming Phoenix and her eventual death are a great story. He spent alot of time and energy over 5 plus years to do this. To bolster this even more CC did not want to kill her, but editorial made him do it. He always had big plans for her, so how is that hate. I believe it was stated in the Phoenix untold story 1 shot that all involved did in the end agree it was the right thing to do.

It also bring to mind a statement by Joss Whedon. Paraphrased.... I give the fans what they need, not nessesarily what they want. The story needed her to die, very simple. It was the subsiquent retcon that showed no love for the character or story.

[Slung]

Maybe, Jean and Lorna can ditch their thing for Summers brothers as well and find happiness and love with each other.

Summers brothers will be the death of them, in Jean's case it will be the death of her again. And, that pairing would bring in more readers then Scott/Emma. It would raise young male readership which is what Marvel want's isn't it? hehehe

I will follow that train anywhere is wants to go. LOL.

[psycwave]

I will follow that train anywhere is wants to go. LOL.

Probably to the grave with that hack Grey. I actually like Lorna tho...

[Slung]

Probably to the grave with that hack Grey. I actually like Lorna tho...

It is unnatural to like Lorna and not Jean. FAIL.

[psycwave]

It is unnatural to like Lorna and not Jean. FAIL.

How so?...

[Slung]

How so?...

They are bff's and practically sisters. You do not bad talk someone's best friend and sister.

[psycwave]

They are bff's and practically sisters. You do not bad talk someone's best friend and sister.

You'd think that wouldn't you but....it doesn't matter I dislike Jean but yearn for Polaris.

[Novaya Havoc]

It is unnatural to like Lorna and not Jean. FAIL.

It is unnatural to be LITERATE and not like Dazzler.

[Slung]

It is unnatural to be LITERATE and not like Dazzler.

I like Dazzler. I just don't nerdgasm over her like some people who were going to make a Jean avatar for me.:wink:

[Novaya Havoc]

I like Dazzler. I just don't nerdgasm over her like some people who were going to make a Jean avatar for me.:wink:

ExCUSE me. The JEAN is yet to come!

[Slung]

ExCUSE me. The JEAN is yet to come!

Its been "yet to come" for soooo long. How long must I hold out? Tell me! How long??

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I don't get it.

You guys complain and complain about how Ems and 'Ro are being treated, but you're just fine with CC's masterplan for Jean.

Really, said plan can be summed up to some weird Endsong 2.0. Only with Wolvie and, oh yeah, much worse since she doesn't get told off so she can get her act together on her own.

Ems and 'Ro aren't as fierce and bitchy. Jean is literally incomplete.

Once again, I just don't get it.

[DeniseXfrost]

Oh, most assuredly. Madelyne was truly a sympathetic victim. But then she was literally demonized in Inferno. She let anger overcome her. It's that red-head theme. And then Scott and Jean became official "right," in retrospect.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/GoblinPrince.jpg
OMG nipple alert!

[Mitteloss]

It is unnatural to like Lorna and not Jean.

You're... somewhat right. Before Polaris was my favourite character, Jean was. Any idea why it's so common for their fans to like them both?

[nikbackm]

You're... somewhat right. Before Polaris was my favourite character, Jean was. Any idea why it's so common for their fans to like them both?

Whoa... there was a loaded question :biggrin:

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

You're... somewhat right. Before Polaris was my favourite character, Jean was. Any idea why it's so common for their fans to like them both?

Essentially a good woman? Check.

Powerhourse? Check.

The nicer - and by far, lol, damn the Summers pwn - of two individuals in a romantic relationship? Check.

Being completely insane? Check.

[AcesX1X]

I think there is some confusion on the CC/Jean thing.

One, CC has always loved Jean. She was one of his favorite X-Men characters. Another poster mentioned that it was editorial who made CC kill her in the Dark Phoenix Saga. Given what she had done within the story, CC agreed that this was the moral thing to do. Nothing could absolve her of her crimes during that story except death. This was meant to be a permanent end.

Two, Madelyne was introduced as a way to keep the mystery and essence of Jean involved in the X-Men's lives in the wake of Dark Phoenix. If Claremont could not have Jean, he wanted a way to keep her presence known (not unlike today!). Thus, Madelyne was born, and with her resemblances, elements of Dark Phoenix were re-introduced into the X-Men. Traces of Jean were woven into the storyline to affect the characters in ways that Jean could only do in death.

Years later, Marvel entered controversy with the decision to launch X-Factor. The concept would reunite the original five, under the pen of Bob Layton with Mike Carlin at the editorial helm. The only catch was that Jean was dead, and no reunion could be had. Marvel gave the X-Factor team the green light to resurrect Jean (in the fashion that we know today - body snatched.)

This was all done without first consulting CC, who was something of a father to Jean's character at this point. If I recall correctly from stories given by the creator, CC was apparently in a restaurant eating when he received the news. Infuriated, he went to the nearest payphone to start negotiations. He begged for this change to not take place. This could not happen. It would ruin everything great about the Dark Phoenix Saga, and also rain havoc upon the X-Men characters. He even offered the Dazzler to the X-Factor team as a substitute! They would not have it. Jean would be brought back to life with no ties to the Dark Phoenix Saga.

Upset, Claremont now had the conundrum of Madelyne Pryor to deal with. How would she handle this resurrection? What would happen to the family that CC had so carefully laid out for her and Cyclops? How could Claremont justify this interruption in everyone's lives? Thus, Inferno was born. Thus, he sacrificed his own creation, Madelyne, to the story to prevent her from having to interact with the abomination that was now walking around as Jean Grey again. To him, this was not Jean Grey. His Jean Grey died years ago. And, with her return, Madelyne Pryor's only viable fate was to die as well.

I am sure he came around to the idea of Jean being back after some time away from the original five. Obviously, this took some time, as the next time he used her, he had Masque disfigure her in hideous ways. With the launch of X-Men v. 2, CC left and did not return for nearly a decade. Once he was back, his love for Jean had obviously returned as well, with the focus on her (free of Cyclops) in full force. Given his history with the character, I am sure he is also very grateful to Morrison for bringing the Phoenix legacy to such a central point in Jean's life once again.

But, I have never been under the impression that CC has hated Jean Grey. If anything, he seems to have only hated what was done with her character, which he seems to be over now, given that she is restored as the one, true Phoenix once more.

[darknessatnoon]

I think there is some confusion on the CC/Jean thing.

One, CC has always loved Jean. She was one of his favorite X-Men characters. Another poster mentioned that it was editorial who made CC kill her in the Dark Phoenix Saga. Given what she had done within the story, CC agreed that this was the moral thing to do. Nothing could absolve her of her crimes during that story except death. This was meant to be a permanent end.

Two, Madelyne was introduced as a way to keep the mystery and essence of Jean involved in the X-Men's lives in the wake of Dark Phoenix. If Claremont could not have Jean, he wanted a way to keep her presence known (not unlike today!). Thus, Madelyne was born, and with her resemblances, elements of Dark Phoenix were re-introduced into the X-Men. Traces of Jean were woven into the storyline to affect the characters in ways that Jean could only do in death.

Years later, Marvel entered controversy with the decision to launch X-Factor. The concept would reunite the original five, under the pen of Bob Layton with Mike Carlin at the editorial helm. The only catch was that Jean was dead, and no reunion could be had. Marvel gave the X-Factor team the green light to resurrect Jean (in the fashion that we know today - body snatched.)

This was all done without first consulting CC, who was something of a father to Jean's character at this point. If I recall correctly from stories given by the creator, CC was apparently in a restaurant eating when he received the news. Infuriated, he went to the nearest payphone to start negotiations. He begged for this change to not take place. This could not happen. It would ruin everything great about the Dark Phoenix Saga, and also rain havoc upon the X-Men characters. He even offered the Dazzler to the X-Factor team as a substitute! They would not have it. Jean would be brought back to life with no ties to the Dark Phoenix Saga.

Upset, Claremont now had the conundrum of Madelyne Pryor to deal with. How would she handle this resurrection? What would happen to the family that CC had so carefully laid out for her and Cyclops? How could Claremont justify this interruption in everyone's lives? Thus, Inferno was born. Thus, he sacrificed his own creation, Madelyne, to the story to prevent her from having to interact with the abomination that was now walking around as Jean Grey again. To him, this was not Jean Grey. His Jean Grey died years ago. And, with her return, Madelyne Pryor's only viable fate was to die as well.

I am sure he came around to the idea of Jean being back after some time away from the original five. Obviously, this took some time, as the next time he used her, he had Masque disfigure her in hideous ways. With the launch of X-Men v. 2, CC left and did not return for nearly a decade. Once he was back, his love for Jean had obviously returned as well, with the focus on her (free of Cyclops) in full force. Given his history with the character, I am sure he is also very grateful to Morrison for bringing the Phoenix legacy to such a central point in Jean's life once again.

But, I have never been under the impression that CC has hated Jean Grey. If anything, he seems to have only hated what was done with her character, which he seems to be over now, given that she is restored as the one, true Phoenix once more.

"Hated Jean" was perhaps too strong a characterization. However, your chronology is correct. He did despise that Jean was brought back and so he decided to desecrate her. Feel free to post the image of what Masque did to Jean. That's my favorite Jean picture.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Good, how did it turn into a "CC loves Jean" discussion anyway?

I essentially said two things:

1 - CC showed lack of respect towards Chuck and the O5. Never said anything about 24/7.

2 - I then said CC just *had* to dislike Jean for wanting to turn her into just about the most needy codependant housewife EVER. Really, there's something truly horrifying about the whole 'I can only be whole with the obnoxious runt's love on my side' motif.

I know you guys miss Red and will talk anyone's ear off about how awesome she is, but come on.

[Slung]

Good, how did it turn into a "CC loves Jean" discussion anyway?

I essentially said two things:

1 - CC showed lack of respect towards Chuck and the O5. Never said anything about 24/7.

2 - I then said CC just *had* to dislike Jean for wanting to turn her into just about the most needy codependant housewife EVER. Really, there's something truly horrifying about the whole 'I can only be whole with the obnoxious runt's love on my side' motif.

I know you guys miss Red and will talk anyone's ear off about how awesome she is, but come on.

It could be worse, we could be always going on and on about fabulous Cyclops is. :biggrin:

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

It could be worse, we could be always going on and on about fabulous Cyclops is. :biggrin:

Well, he *does* have good hair and his wardrobe did improve. Oh, and the gimp motif. That, too.

And just so we're clear, it's not so much me complaining about the Jean talk rather than me wondering WTF is up with overlooking the Jean/Logan atrocity.

[psycwave]

Well, he *does* have good hair and his wardrobe did improve. Oh, and the gimp motif. That, too.

I prefer hippie Cyclops over all his incarnations...

[AcesX1X]

Feel free to post the image of what Masque did to Jean. That's my favorite Jean picture.

I can't find it online, but here is a shot of Bliss as Jean!

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/blissmorlock4.jpg

[darknessatnoon]

I can't find it online, but here is a shot of Bliss as Jean!

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/blissmorlock4.jpg

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is another one.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/blissmorlock3.jpg

And another:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/masquesxmen1.jpg

And here is Jean herself:

http://members.aceweb.com/gregg1/tentaclejean.jpg

[Novaya Havoc]

CC was apparently in a restaurant eating when he received the news. Infuriated, he went to the nearest payphone to start negotiations. He begged for this change to not take place. This could not happen. It would ruin everything great about the Dark Phoenix Saga, and also rain havoc upon the X-Men characters. He even offered the Dazzler to the X-Factor team as a substitute! They would not have it. Jean would be brought back to life with no ties to the Dark Phoenix Saga.

This is not true. CC did not OFFER Dazzler! He didn't have control over Dazzler!

Dazzler was planned from the start, until editorial (surprisingly) permitted Jean to return and be on the roster. X-Factor would have been launched even without Jean Grey's addition.

[psycwave]

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is another one.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/blissmorlock3.jpg

And another:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/masquesxmen1.jpg

And here is Jean herself:

http://members.aceweb.com/gregg1/tentaclejean.jpg

Aw great now im gonna have nightmares for the rest of the week...

[AcesX1X]

This is not true. CC did not OFFER Dazzler! He didn't have control over Dazzler!

Dazzler was planned from the start, until editorial (surprisingly) permitted Jean to return and be on the roster. X-Factor would have been launched even without Jean Grey's addition.

This is very surprising to me! I swear that I remember CC listing off a number of females for them to use on X-Factor instead of Jean and Dazzler was one of them!

[darknessatnoon]

This is not true. CC did not OFFER Dazzler! He didn't have control over Dazzler!

Dazzler was planned from the start, until editorial (surprisingly) permitted Jean to return and be on the roster. X-Factor would have been launched even without Jean Grey's addition.

Dazzler/Tessa would have made a better choice, and either one would have offset the other members well.

[Novaya Havoc]

This is very surprising to me! I swear that I remember CC listing off a number of females for them to use on X-Factor instead of Jean and Dazzler was one of them!

Tetragene got the 411 from Bob Layton. They did make other considerations but had settled on Dazzler since her solo title was getting axed to make room for the New Universe line.

It was even dropped in Dazzler #42 (final issue) -- Beast offered her a spot on the roster.

By all rights when editorial said they'd bring Jean back, Claremont probably did negotiate with a bunch of characters. But Dazzler couldn't be one of them.

[AcesX1X]

By all rights when editorial said they'd bring Jean back, Claremont probably did negotiate with a bunch of characters. But Dazzler couldn't be one of them.

Perhaps his argument was that Dazzler would be available since her series was being axed.

"Offered" may have been too strong of a word!

[darknessatnoon]

Tetragene got the 411 from Bob Layton. They did make other considerations but had settled on Dazzler since her solo title was getting axed to make room for the New Universe line.

It was even dropped in Dazzler #42 (final issue) -- Beast offered her a spot on the roster.

By all rights when editorial said they'd bring Jean back, Claremont probably did negotiate with a bunch of characters. But Dazzler couldn't be one of them.

I remember when all that was happening. By the time they had decided on the "chick" spot going to Jean, they released a Marvel Age promo issue about it. In the article, all the pictures of the female character were blacked out, as were all the text references to relevant plot and who it might be (it was unreadable). They were offering up options like Mantis! Can you imagine if they had chosen Mantis? Marrina would have been a better choice than her.

[Slung]

I can't find it online, but here is a shot of Bliss as Jean!

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/blissmorlock4.jpg

AHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is another one.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/blissmorlock3.jpg

And another:

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix2/masquesxmen1.jpg

And here is Jean herself:

http://members.aceweb.com/gregg1/tentaclejean.jpg
You give comic book fans a bad name.

[Mitteloss]

Great post AcesX1X, nicely summed up the topic. Learnt and understood alot from that.

Whoa... there was a loaded question

:smile: Yes, tend to ask those type of questions.

Essentially a good woman? Check.

Powerhouse? Check.

The nicer - and by far, lol, damn the Summers pwn - of two individuals in a romantic relationship? Check.

Being completely insane? Check.

Couldn't end it without a punchline, could you? But I agree with some of what you said. Essentially, Jean and Lorna will always be good people, with good motives. But so are many other characters...

Relationships? Nothing to do with being "nicer" than Cyke and Havok, at least in my opinion. Scott and Alex seem like fairly "nice" characters too, so...

I think how they sometimes could be un-fairly portrayed within their relationships with Scott and Alex and the results of that, give Jean and Lorna a common goal to "break away" from The Summers, so they could independently achieve their potential as characters. Feminism?

They have many other similarities.

[jmc247]

Couldn't end it without a punchline, could you? But I agree with some of what you said. Essentially, Jean and Lorna will always be good people, with good motives. But so are many other characters...

Relationships? Nothing to do with being "nicer" than Cyke and Havok, at least in my opinion. Scott and Alex seem like fairly "nice" characters too, so...

I think how they sometimes could be un-fairly portrayed within their relationships with Scott and Alex and the results of that, give Jean and Lorna a common goal to "break away" from The Summers, so they could independently achieve their potential as characters. Feminism?

They have many other similarities.

Lorna has been talked about as Jean Gray light and under certain writers that has been certainly the case. There has been a few different personalities Lorna has had over the years. Havok's girlfriend/Jean Gray light and M2 have been her two most significant over time. Its best when you have a writer like Yost that uses different aspects of her personality at different times.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Seeing as how he was/is an X-man (and by extension, his sister) - though currently "in limbo"...one of my worst X-ret-cons would have to be Northstar (and Aurora's) birth history...I rather liked that (initially) they were of human/faerie lineage...and now all that has been shot straight down to svartalheim

[Rivka]

Well, some of the "worst" retcons you-all come up with, I don't agree are that bad.

I liked DEADLY GENESIS, and although the history added to the Krakoa story was somewhat awkward, I liked the story. Charles Xavier is no saint. And I am very happy to see his dark side, his hypocrisy and flaws, portrayed. I liked the new characters, and I am very happy to see the "third Summers brother" (a dangling plotline that's been around for years), turn out to be a major villain. Got tired of all those saintly Summerses, too.

I don't see the big problem with Lorna Dane being Magneto's natural daughter. The only problem is how she was conceived. Magneto would not have been interested in any other woman than Magda at the time, as we saw him say, and read his thought balloons in the Legion Quest stories. Also, Chuck Austen's "reveal" was very flawed, and left a lot of questions, because of lapses in logic. But Claremont himself seems to have planned for it to turn out that way, at least he implied so in a letter to a friend of mine about 8 years ago.

Xorn being Xorn, and not Magneto, was a necessary, and righteous, move, and I wish more of Morrison's run would be retconned. Unfortunately, we still have the Emma Frost/Scott Summers freak-show, and cat-beast. I think considering how many of his ideas were so poorly thought-through, it's a wonder so many of them have been left in place. Most of his characters are still around, and his ideas are still respected. Bringing Magneto back in EXCALIBUR #1 may be the best retcon Marvel ever did.

The Jean Grey comes back in a cocoon retcon, I read at the time it came out, and I didn't mind it. I was glad she was back. I read the X-Men when the series first came out, when there were few female characters for me to identify with; one was Supergirl, Kara, and her back-up stories in ACTION COMICS were pale and poofy (although I have a soft spot in my heart for them). But over at Marvel, I could read about Sue Storm and Marvel Girl. Jean means a lot to me personally, and I am still very peeved at the way Morrison killed her off. I don't care about the cocoon and Jean separate from Phoenix retcon any more, because that has been resolved. I are more angry that Jean is still not back in a major X-book.

There have been a lot of strange retcons over the years. The worst just might be "the Draco" story. Not only did Austin manage to mess up Nightcrawler's history, he also tried to retcon Marvel Universe cosmology, mutant history, and undermined a major point of Marvel philosophy. And it wasn't even a good story, or well-written story. (The Marvel philosophy that I'm referring to is, that the Marvel Universe is as close to the real-world as is possible, given the presence of super beings, magic, aliens. There should be no answer to what is the true nature of God, or angels, or devils, or demons. Or Hell. Marvel doesn't impose one world-view, or one religious truth on their Universe. That's what Chuck Austen tried to do, in an anti-religion kind of way.)

I am also not happy with the Wolverine devlelopments, that there is this line of "feral" mutants that are a separate "sub-species" of mutants. Again, this defies logic, and contradicts Marvel continuity and genetics.

I was VERY unhappy with having Mikhail Rasputin go back in time to infect Illyana with the Legacy Virus. That was not only stupid, but editorially driven to deliberately undermine the obvious intent of Louise Simonson that Magik wasn't dead, but that the little girl Illyana who appeared in the DarkChylde armor was one of Limbo's many alternate Illyana's. As Limbo has multiple dimensons and timelines' version of the X-Men and Illyana coexisting, as they pass in and out of the place. This was just vindictive and unnecessary overkill on the part of the Bob Harras editorial office. I am very happy that Magik has returned, and since she's appeared in the actual world outside Limbo very recently, she's breathed the air, and is now cured of the Legacy Virus. :smile:

I was not happy that Marvel brought back the Age of Apocalypse Universe, although I did enjoy the story and I don't want to criticize the writer and artist. But the whole idea is annoying. One of the most moving stories in Marvel history was given it's power and punch and poignancy because everyone died in the end, except the four who escaped.

Also, I was a big fan of CYCLOPS AND PHOENIX, the story of how Scott and Jean went to the future and raised Cable. It was an amazing series, by Lobdell and Ha. I was highly annoyed with Marvel declared it a non-existent timeline, and Rachel never was Mother Askani. What is the status of that situation today? Did Scott and Jean still raised Nathan or not? Did Rachel spend time as Mother Askani and die in the distant future? My understanding is that this now no longer happened.

Other things I didn't like was the way Karma's little brother and sister were treated in the books. I think it might have been a GOOD retcon, if they were restored to their former, children selves.

Other GOOD retcons, include updating historical references with characters, like Storm's childhood, and how the explosion occurred that killed her parents and buried her alive. (Terrorist bomb, rather than some involvement in one of the Israeli-Arab wars.)

I liked adding Amelia Voght to Xavier's backstory. She's a great character.

I like adding Mr. Sinister to history, and to Moira's history at Oxford, Verrrryyy interesting. I think it's better to not get too detailed on what Essex has been up to, because he loses a lot of his mystery and threat. But I like when he's added to stories in logical ways.

Can't think of anything else right now.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Couldn't end it without a punchline, could you?

Not so much a punchline as well-documented facts. :biggrin:

And, hey, I'll play fair. The Summers are total part-time a-holes. Quasi-nutjobs on a bad day.


Relationships? Nothing to do with being "nicer" than Cyke and Havok, at least in my opinion. Scott and Alex seem like fairly "nice" characters too, so...

I *might* buy it you wouldn't advocate for the gals to, quote, break away, lol.

I think how they sometimes could be un-fairly portrayed within their relationships with Scott and Alex and the results of that, give Jean and Lorna a common goal to "break away" from The Summers, so they could independently achieve their potential as characters. Feminism?

Please do rephrase that. I really have a hard time with the first sentence.

Just, what, they should break away because they're unfairly portrayed? :confused:

[jmc247]

I don't see the big problem with Lorna Dane being Magneto's natural daughter. The only problem is how she was conceived. Magneto would not have been interested in any other woman than Magda at the time, as we saw him say, and read his thought balloons in the Legion Quest stories. Also, Chuck Austen's "reveal" was very flawed, and left a lot of questions, because of lapses in logic. But Claremont himself seems to have planned for it to turn out that way, at least he implied so in a letter to a friend of mine about 8 years ago.


Wanda and Pietro were put in statis otherwise they should be in their late 50s right now so the time Polaris would have been concieved would have been decades after Magda. But, Austen did leave a great deal of leeway for the next writer who wants to fill in her backstory so be greatful for that.

Can you tell me more about this letter from Claremont 8 years ago, I am interested.

Arnold Drake said at a convention a number of years ago that the origional reason they retconned her away from being Magneto's daughter in the 1960s was that they wanted her to be an X-woman and they couldn't see Magneto's daughter also being an X-woman at the same time. Which I guess would have made more logic in the Silver Age.

[AcesX1X]

Arnold Drake said at a convention a number of years ago that the origional reason they retconned her away from being Magneto's daughter in the 1960s was that they wanted her to be an X-woman and they couldn't see Magneto's daughter also being an X-woman at the same time. Which I guess would have made more logic in the Silver Age.

Ridiculous! If Wanda and Pietro can be Avengers, then surely Lorna can be an X-Man!

[jmc247]

Ridiculous! If Wanda and Pietro can be Avengers, then surely Lorna can be an X-Man!

You are forgetting that Wanda and Pietro weren't Magneto's children offically until 1983, though there were hints a few years earlier, and by that time views in America and in comics books had shifted massively. Wanda and Pietro could be Avengers in the 60s because they were simply 'used' by Magneto and 'tricked' into serving him and they weren't related to him at that time. The writers in the 60s did everything they could to give Wanda and Pietro an out for serving Magneto.

Remember in the origional Polaris storyline the X-Men had all simply assumed Lorna must join Magneto because he said she is his daughter. That shows how much views and values have changed since then.

[AcesX1X]

Remember in the origional Polaris storyline the X-Men had all simply assumed Lorna must join Magneto because he said she is his daughter. That shows how much views and values have changed since then.

Yes, but they were Magneto's employees. If staff can defect to the greatest super-team in the world, then his daughter (with no previous allegiance) can join the premiere team of super-freaks.

Lorna cannot help it that the X-Men were racist against her.

[jmc247]

Yes, but they were Magneto's employees. If staff can defect to the greatest super-team in the world, then his daughter (with no previous allegiance) can join the premiere team of super-freaks.

Lorna cannot help it that the X-Men were racist against her.

I would simply put it that the Silver Age comic book mindset about family relations was stupid.

The Silver Age X-Men believed that Lorna had to follow Magneto who was portayed as a raving madman simply because he said she was his daughter. How times have changed.

[Almighty Pejo]

Regarding Polaris as the daughter of Magneto: Does anyone think it could be a possibility that Lorna is really Anya Lensherr? That's the only explanation that really makes sense to me, considering the established histories of both Magneto and Polaris. I mean, it may have been brought up before, but couldn't that work at explaining it all?

I didn't like the post-Morrison Cassandra Nova retcons. I mean, Charles rehabilitates Cassandra enough that she is allowed to live amongst the student population as Ernst, and then, all of a sudden, she's back down in the basement, locked in a box, trapped in Stuff's body and trying to break free. When and where did that happen?

[Mitteloss]

I *might* buy it you wouldn't advocate for the gals to, quote, break away, lol.

Please do rephrase that. I really have a hard time with the first sentence.

Just, what, they should break away because they're unfairly portrayed? :confused:

Nevermind. I edited that sentence here and there so often, I'm not surprised you couldn't understand it.

[KiplingKat]

Regarding Polaris as the daughter of Magneto: Does anyone think it could be a possibility that Lorna is really Anya Lensherr? That's the only explanation that really makes sense to me, considering the established histories of both Magneto and Polaris. I mean, it may have been brought up before, but couldn't that work at explaining it all?

A. Polaris is too young. She's younger than the twins given that the twins spent a decade or two in suspended animation. B. We saw Anya's burned body and know Magneto buried it. We also know that he knows where it is and puts Asteroid M in synchronous orbit above it. Had anyone messed with the grave, Magnus would know. C. Polaris has had green hair from birth, Anya did not. D. Polaris was born in the U.S. Anya in U.S.S.R. E. As a creative decision, it would destroy one of the most pivotal moments in Magneto life, a catalytic moment that drove his alienation from humanity. Not to mention being so soap operatic to be utterly ridiculous.

[Imraith Nimphais]

A. Polaris is too young. She's younger than the twins given that the twins spent a decade or two in suspended animation. B. We saw Anya's burned body and know Magneto buried it. We also know that he knows where it is and puts Asteroid M in synchronous orbit above it. Had anyone messed with the grave, Magnus would know. C. Polaris has had green hair from birth, Anya did not. D. Polaris was born in the U.S. Anya in U.S.S.R. E. As a creative decision, it would destroy one of the most pivotal moments in Magneto life, a catalytic moment that drove his alienation from humanity. Not to mention being so soap operatic to be utterly ridiculous.

Just so that you know...that has never stopped "them" from doingwriting wot they damn-well please...remember Colossus?...just saying.

[KiplingKat]

Just so that you know...that has never stopped "them" from doingwriting wot they damn-well please...remember Colossus?...just saying.

Yeah, but that on top of everything else? Plus, as I said, had anyone messed with the grave, Magnus would know (and probably kill them.)

They would seriously have to warp established continuity to make Lorna Anya.

[DDM]

What issue is that from?

Uncanny X-Men #232-234; it's Madelyne's transformation into the Goblin Queen.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Oh...I agree with you, completely Kat...I for one always liked the idea of Lorna as Maggie's daughter...and I saw no major issues with her being part of the X-men (which she wasn't...at least actively...for quite some time)...and him being their arch-nemesis...in fact, I think it would have made for really excellent writing/storytelling/dialogue...wot would they have done if Magneto went up against The Avengers?...on a side note...does that make Zaladane Magneto's daughter as well?...considering that whole swapping of powers around UXM 250.

[AcesX1X]

does that make Zaladane Magneto's daughter as well?...considering that whole swapping of powers around UXM 250.

Zaladane is a liar and cannot be trusted. Do not believe anything she says. Moira was hungover when she ran those statistics.

[just another user]

Chuck Austin's Polaris is retcon is as stupid as when he tried to make all the lupine mutants related to each other and Warren into an Angel.

It came out of nowhere and weakened all the characters involved. very surprised that subsequent writers appear to have stuck with it imho.

[KiplingKat]

Oh...I agree with you, completely Kat...I for one always liked the idea of Lorna as Maggie's daughter...and I saw no major issues with her being part of the X-men (which she wasn't...at least actively...for quite some time)...and him being their arch-nemesis...in fact, I think it would have made for really excellent writing/storytelling/dialogue...wot would they have done if Magneto went up against The Avengers?...on a side note...does that make Zaladane Magneto's daughter as well?...considering that whole swapping of powers around UXM 250.

Actually, Zaladane has never claimed to be Magneto daughter, only Lorna's sister. And Moira's claim that the machine would only work if the two people involved were blood relatives is extremely shaky given that A. Moira never saw the machine its self and B. plenty of other super villain have invented machine to steal superpowers of people who were not related to them in the slightest. Dr. Doom has done it on several occasions.

Personally, IMO, I find that the "Polaris as Magneto's daughter" thing to be a stupid cliche', a very lazy attempt to "make the character more interesting" without actually writing the character. And it has done a LOT of damage to Polaris as a character, for a while essentially turning her into Magneto's parrot. Meanwhile, it hasn't done a thing for Magneto character either way, as he has never acted like Polaris is his kid as he has with the Twins. And frankly, given Magneto's extreme relationship with the Twins, the only choices for Lorna in that situation is either to fall completely into Magneto's shadow, or replay his acrimonious relaitonship with the Twins, covering ground that is being covered elsewhere.

Magneto already has gone up against the Avengers, quite a few times while the Twins were members. In the Silver Age, even before he knew they were his kids, most of the time he was working to get the Twins back. So...Lorna being Mags daughter is sort of a "Been there, done that..." kind of thing. It really doesn't do anything for her or for him.

[KiplingKat]

It came out of nowhere and weakened all the characters involved. very surprised that subsequent writers appear to have stuck with it imho.

Actually, subsequent writers seem intent on avoiding the entire mess. Despite Charles and Lorna having a philosophical throw down only hours before he met up with Magnus in Excalibur Vol. 3, Magneto has never said a single thing about Polaris being his daughter. Ever. Brubaker went and stuck her in space, away from the entire situation. And the only time they have interacted, Bendis made Magneto hesitant greeting Lorna in House of M, as if he knew something was wrong.

So, it less they "stuck with it" as they are trying to avoid it altogether.

[AcesX1X]

Who cares if Magneto 'accepts' him as his daughter? He is a himbo and irrelevant.

Scarlet Witch accepts Lorna as her sister, so that is all that matters.

[Congo Jack]

Chris Claremont almost quit Uncanny X-Men when he heard about X-Factor through then editor, Ann Nocenti; she broke the news to Claremont at a bar or pub & gave him time to lose his temper in front of her instead of Jim Shooter. Afterwards, Chris Claremont used several plot elements of Jean's sister, Sarah or Tessa to be the 5th mysterious member. Not long afterwards, Rachel Summers officially became the second Phoenix in Uncanny X-Men #199...
Really? Learn something new everyday. Thanks for the summary!

[Imraith Nimphais]

agreed...and agreed.

[KiplingKat]

Who cares if Magneto 'accepts' him as his daughter? He is a himbo and irrelevant.

Actually, Magneto is not a "himbo", not even close. He's only slept with four women in 60 years, maybe five. The numbers depend on whether or not one believes that he and Rogue somehow found time to rush off and have a quickie in the bushes during the Uncanny #274/275 story and if you count that fact despite the intent to sleep with her, Isabelle was killed before they could consummate the relationship. Either way, the numbers are very low for the span of time they cover.

http://www.magnetowasright.com/pages/analysis/chick-magnet-magneto-and-relationships.php

And as far as kids go, the instant he found out the Twins were his, he rushed off to tell them and has repeatedly tried to make a connection with them (in his highly dysfunctional way of course). His treatment of Lorna is more like how he treats his Acolytes.

So yeah, it matters.

Scarlet Witch accepts Lorna as her sister, so that is all that matters.

Wanda was fulfilling everyone's "fondest wish", Lorna has self-identity issues up the wazoo. It's really not too surprising that her "fondest wish" was to attach herself to the strongest personality she had ever encountered. She believed she was Magneto's daughter, so Wanda fulfilled that wish.

[DDM]

Actually, Zaladane has never claimed to be Magneto daughter, only Lorna's sister. And Moira's claim that the machine would only work if the two people involved were blood relatives is extremely shaky given that A. Moira never saw the machine its self and B. plenty of other super villain have invented machine to steal superpowers of people who were not related to them in the slightest. Dr. Doom has done it on several occasions.

Personally, IMO, I find that the "Polaris as Magneto's daughter" thing to be a stupid cliche', a very lazy attempt to "make the character more interesting" without actually writing the character. And it has done a LOT of damage to Polaris as a character, for a while essentially turning her into Magneto's parrot. Meanwhile, it hasn't done a thing for Magneto character either way, as he has never acted like Polaris is his kid as he has with the Twins. And frankly, given Magneto's extreme relationship with the Twins, the only choices for Lorna in that situation is either to fall completely into Magneto's shadow, or replay his acrimonious relaitonship with the Twins, covering ground that is being covered elsewhere.

Magneto already has gone up against the Avengers, quite a few times while the Twins were members. In the Silver Age, even before he knew they were his kids, most of the time he was working to get the Twins back. So...Lorna being Mags daughter is sort of a "Been there, done that..." kind of thing. It really doesn't do anything for her or for him.

I agree. Lorna Dane to be the daughter of Magneto is lame since it has been refuted time & again; the first time when the "Magneto"--from X-Men #49-52--falls apart to be revealed as a lifeless robot when Mesmero was abducted by Sentinels in X-Men #57 (More the fool Mesmero for serving the machine). And by Magneto himself in Uncanny X-Men #112.

Austen's claim to make Lorna interesting has the opposite effect with me; the connection is a cliche & a lazy one for any writer to make as some sort of original epiphany.

[AcesX1X]

So yeah, it matters.


>Yawn<

You have no idea how Magneto feels about Polaris now that he knows of her parentage. He was busy taking care of his other crazy daughter before he got Decimated, and now Lorna is off in space somewhere and he is zapping people in their eyes with laser-tools.

And you also have no idea what Polaris' fondest wish is. For all you know, her being in the House of M could have been fulfilling Magneto's fondest wish of having his progeny reunited. Or fulfilling Wanda's wish of connecting with her long-lost sister.

I do not recall anyone ever dissecting everyone's wishes in the House of M. So, if you have Wanda's rolodex of heart's desires, you should share your information.

[DDM]

Really? Learn something new everyday. Thanks for the summary!

I read about it from Chris Claremont himself in Comics Creators X-Men. Ann took Chris out to lunch on a Friday & gave him time to lose his temper in front of her. By Monday, he was trying to get Jim Shooter to accept anyone but Jean Grey as the 5th member, but Shooter had made up his mind already.

[psycwave]

If I was Lorna and I ever saw Wanda again it would so totally be on. Bitch slap all day.

[Imraith Nimphais]

while I do see your povs...I still do think Lorna as Mag's daughter is/was a good concept...just very, VERY poorly thought out (if at all) and even more poorly executed...si I blame the writers and editors (at the time) for that whole debacle.

[KiplingKat]

[>Yawn<

You have no idea how Magneto feels about Polaris now that he knows of her parentage.

Considering he has never mentioned her, where he mentions his other children frequently, and his hesitancy in greeting Lorna in House of M...yeah I have a pretty good idea.

And you also have no idea what Polaris' fondest wish is.

I know she glommed on to the Identity of being Magneto's daughter pretty damn quick, despite the fact that they had last parted as enemies and she had actively worked against his regime in Genosha.

For all you know, her being in the House of M could have been fulfilling Magneto's fondest wish of having his progeny reunited.

Had it been Magneto's desire to reunite his family dominating Wanda's choices, why then was ANYA absent?

Or fulfilling Wanda's wish of connecting with her long-lost sister.

So why then did we never see them together?

I do not recall anyone ever dissecting everyone's wishes in the House of M. So, if you have Wanda's rolodex of heart's desires, you should share your information.

Uhm... the was the whole premise of Pietro argument to convince Wanda to reshape the world: Use Xavier's telepathy to give everyone what they wanted.

Tho' she did make some very weird choices: Doom's wishes over Reed and Sue's for instance.

[AcesX1X]

[
Considering he has never mentioned her, where he mentions his other children frequently, and his hesitancy in greeting Lorna in House of M...yeah I have a pretty good idea.

He obviously has other things to worry about right now. And you obviously have little appreciation for levity right now, as per this crazy debate.


[Uhm... the was the whole premise of Pietro argument to convince Wanda to reshape the world: Use Xavier's telepathy to give everyone what they wanted.


I am not convinced that she even likes being Magneto's daughter. She seems to hate the man most of the time. She may just enjoy the fact that her past is no longer a mystery. And as for your other comments about people getting what they want, I think Misty Knight and Hawkeye would disagree with you.

Either way, she is a rebel slave in space and he is reading through dusty old books right now. Neither of them is in any sort of position for a family reunion....right now.

[KiplingKat]

He obviously has other things to worry about right now. And you obviously have little appreciation for levity right now, as per this crazy debate.

My lack of a sense of humor is well known. Facial expressions and tone of voice do not translate on the internet. Unless you add a :wink: I won't know you are joking. There are Polaris fans who will take people to the wall on this issue, I assumed you were one. My apologies.

I am not convinced that she even likes being Magneto's daughter. She seems to hate the man most of the time.

Austin made it pretty clear that she was happy with it. Y'know, putting on the helmet, saying thing like "MY FATHER said humans were a pollutant..." Arguing Magneto's side in a philosophical debate against Xavier. Being Magneto's daughter in House of M. I'd say her feelings on the matter were pretty clear.

No. It makes no sense for her to turn on a dime (from hating Magneto to embracing being his daughter) like Austin made her do, but she did.

Austin really screwed her as a character.

Either way, she is a rebel slave in space and he is reading through dusty old books right now. Neither of them is in any sort of position for a family reunion....right now.

Which I am totally happy with.

[AcesX1X]

Austin made it pretty clear that she was happy with it. Y'know, putting on the helmet, saying thing like "MY FATHER said humans were a pollutant..." Arguing Magneto's side in a philosophical debate against Xavier. Being Magneto's daughter in House of M. I'd say her feelings on the matter were pretty clear.

No. It makes no sense for her to turn on a dime (from hating Magneto to embracing being his daughter) like Austin made her do, but she did.

Austin really screwed her as a character.
.

All this can be chalked up to her being crazy. Out of all the X-Men, she's definitely the one with the most obvious mental illness! Obviously, she was rapid-cycling while she was doing all these things you say she was doing. Her magnetic powers must mess with her brain chemistry, it seems! She was quite traumatized in that attack on Genosha. I don't mind having a mentally ill X-Man. It keeps things spicy.

She seems to be getting better now that she has things to blow up, however.

Apology accepted also.

[GoingGreen]

I'm so tired of these same old Lorna debates. Can we just get over it already, and everyone just agree to disagree? Why does Lorna need pages of arguments in every thread ever? *hides her under shirt* JUST LEAVE HER ALONE, OKAY?! Lol

[AcesX1X]

I'm so tired of these same old Lorna debates. Can we just get over it already, and everyone just agree to disagree? Why does Lorna need pages of arguments in every thread ever? *hides her under shirt* JUST LEAVE HER ALONE, OKAY?! Lol

LOL! Aw, GoingGreen! >hugs<

[DDM]

I'm so tired of these same old Lorna debates. Can we just get over it already, and everyone just agree to disagree? Why does Lorna need pages of arguments in every thread ever? *hides her under shirt* JUST LEAVE HER ALONE, OKAY?! Lol

Chuck Austin just reintroduced the concept with little or no thought put into Lorna's character; furthermore, Lorna does not show the reader proof as well. She says she had blood test taken, yet we, the readers, see no evidence of this blood test. It's all at Lorna's word. Austin also made Lorna crazy for little reasoning as well which further puts