Final Crisis #2 *Spoilers*

[mosdef]

5 page preview

http://www.newsarama.com/php/multimedia/album.php?aid=18863

[Will.S]

This looks good, I had a feeling issue #2 would pick up more like his Batman RIP book felt like a better story by the 2nd issue.

[Choppa]

How do they know that John is dead?

[Liberty Belle Fan]

Thanks for posting that preview. I have to wait until Monday of next week until my copy arrives and I can hardly stand it.

[Samuraixsithlord]

hmmmm so Libra works for Darkseid.

I hope he has deeper plans then just being a lackey.

[TotalWorldDomination]

How do they know that John is dead?

The Human Flame was sending it out streaming on his phone, any villain who gets it is going to forward it, and any dumb villian is bound to put it on YouTube. Plus the new Secret Society WANTS everyone to know what they've done, they are putting the call out to everyone to join and get the same satisfaction that Human Flame did.

hmmmm so Libra works for Darkseid.

I hope he has deeper plans then just being a lackey.

If he's here to "Balance the Scales" I'd wager he's going to play a deeper role then we expect.

[bjtrdff]

Those alpha lanterns annoy the shit out of me.

[Samuraixsithlord]

If he's here to "Balance the Scales" I'd wager he's going to play a deeper role then we expect.

good one, forgot about his purpose

Maybe Darkseid will go to far and he'll have to take him down a peg or two.

Libra supposed to be really powerful right?

[Babylon23]

How do they know that John is dead?

Wonder Woman says that the JLA telepathic link is dead. Maybe they all felt him die.

[Flamebird]

Those alpha lanterns annoy the shit out of me.

I think that they're supposed to .

Meanwhile, what the heck is "Theotoxic"?

Deadly to theologists and priests?:rolleyes:

[Samuraixsithlord]

I think that they're supposed to .

Meanwhile, what the heck is "Theotoxic"?

Deadly to theologists and priests?:rolleyes:

deadly to divine beings?

[David Atkins]

How do they know that John is dead?

It was all over the news at the end of the first issue. Obviously, the news 'came out' at some point. 'When' and 'how' aren't exactly relevant.

[the4thpip]

I hope the Alpha Lantern buys copies of DoNG #8 and Countdown #1 as clues to how Orion died and then decides they're both red herrings.

[robbieglenn]

its looking pretty good people. Im excited.

Loved how they were talking about Orions death like its any normal murder....day in the life of the JLA....

[drwho]

I hope the Alpha Lantern buys copies of DoNG #8 and Countdown #1 as clues to how Orion died and then decides they're both red herrings.

I kind of wondered the same thing. I thought Superman saw him die in DONG. Maybe I am wrong, but I thought he was fighting Darkseid and Superman saw all this. so shouldnt Superman be like Darkseid killed him?

[Xero]

Looks good! It's kinda depressing reading some of the comments on Newsarama. It's as if all the mouthy, unwashed, nameless rabble on that site have found a new cause.

Is this a generational thing? Are the newer younger readers just dumber than us older readers, or is it the fact that many of the younger readers have a shallower literary and cultural well of reference to draw from?

[Herr Mike]

Younger people are always dumber. Even naive old people know that!

[mrvsop]

People just need to step up their reading comprehension skills. Anyways, this looks good.

[bjtrdff]

People just need to step up their reading comprehension skills. Anyways, this looks good.



To be fair, DC hasn't exactly made it easy to delve right in, what with discounting a 52 issue miniseries, and having at the very least, some sort of gigantic unexplained gap between an 8 issue one and the main series.

I've read everything DC has thrown out before countdown, and although I'm comfortable enough with everything, I still feel like I'm kind of out in the wind with regards to these two first issues.

[Karl O'Neill]

looking awesome, love the villain dialogue.

[Nakomah]

A step-up for me from first issue but still not an over the top fan. Improvements but still a long way to go and I do not believe that it should take three issues to carify on a 7 issue series. But that is just my opinion feel free to bash as you are prone to.

[botch]

Here is a brutal review.

http://vanyaproductions.blogspot.com/

Best Part.

"Can you imagine Children of Men photographed by some random cinematographer? That's what it feels like. So that's basically what it is. Aja, Hitch, Maleev, McNiven, Yu. They are your Lubezki's, Deakins', Elswits', Lesnie's, Doyle's but this was done by the guy who photographed Kickboxer 4: The Aggressor."


Wow. DC needs to step up it's game.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

That was a crappy review in general...

I'm gonna read it myself to see if I agree with anything this guy said. I seriously doubt it though.

[Xero]

Someone has been spamming that crappy review everywhere. It is very transparent, not viral, and less than artful.

[DonC]

Here is a brutal review.

http://vanyaproductions.blogspot.com/

Best Part.

"Can you imagine Children of Men photographed by some random cinematographer? That's what it feels like. So that's basically what it is. Aja, Hitch, Maleev, McNiven, Yu. They are your Lubezki's, Deakins', Elswits', Lesnie's, Doyle's but this was done by the guy who photographed Kickboxer 4: The Aggressor."


Wow. DC needs to step up it's game.


I'd bet cash money that the guy who wrote that review is a blowhard in love with the sound of his own voice in real life.

[Nakomah]

I also did not like the issue much but better than the first one. This reviewer though is spouting mindless foul-mouthed drivel based on an obvious bias against DC. JG Jones a hack artist - What????? Ignore this review and wait for more serious looks at the book and ignore this Hack!!!!!

[Buried Alien]

Agreed. Any "review" that's nothing more than a rant is questionable. Moreover, for his review to be anywhere near accurate, it would mean FINAL CRISIS # 2's quality dropped precipitously after the first five pages, which, going by the online preview, were pretty solid.

That said...why no discussion on the historic return of Barry Allen?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Karl O'Neill]

why not start a new thread? This thread will give off wrong and negative vibes for the issue,

That wasn't a review, moreso a rant, a bad rant.

[botch]

Ok so I read the issue, and I agree. The Art is pretty pathetic. By the way Buried Alien, from reading issue 2 the return isn't that historic, his reappearance in Infinite Crisis was better. It was pretty obvious the last page was going to be Barry running.

Please issue 3 be better. This was....not very good.

[Nick Graham]

That is the most worthless review of a comic I have ever read in my life.
When he starts lamenting about how much of a hack Jones is, anybody with
half a brain is going to stop taking anything he says seriously.

[Karl O'Neill]

I really think certain people have an agenda when it comes to DC.

like they want them to fail.

JG JONES art in the preview is extraordinary IMHO.

it can't just get crap after these preview images.

http://i.newsarama.com/images/fincr_2_dyluxe-19-cv.jpg

[botch]

That is the most worthless review of a comic I have ever read in my life.
When he starts lamenting about how much of a hack Jones is, anybody with
half a brain is going to stop taking anything he says seriously.

dude from newsarama? do you copy and paste your stuff? I don't think he said that Jones was a hack, but that this issue looked like it was drawn by hacks. And well it looks like it was. Not as bad as issue 7 of Infinite Crisis. Wow that was a terrible issue.

[XPac]

I really think certain people have an agenda when it comes to DC.

like they want them to fail.

JG JONES art in the preview is extraordinary IMHO.

it can't just get crap after these preview images.

http://i.newsarama.com/images/fincr_2_dyluxe-19-cv.jpg

Hmmm... judging from the previews it doesn't look terrible. Though it's not exactly blowing me away either.

Sometimes I wish DC would just have Perez do all the Crisis stuff as a rule.

[botch]

I have to say what is up with that page of John getting stabbed, that was weird, I thought it was the other lantern there, Upto I think his name was.

The God-Bullet is an interesting Morrison idea. But this needs to pick up or I see the sounds of "dropped".

[botch]

I really think certain people have an agenda when it comes to DC.

like they want them to fail.

JG JONES art in the preview is extraordinary IMHO.

it can't just get crap after these preview images.

http://i.newsarama.com/images/fincr_2_dyluxe-19-cv.jpg

I have no idea how you would call that extraordinary. It looks pretty mediocre. Extraordinary are the interiors of Immortal Iron Fist. Now that is extraordinary.

[Karl O'Neill]

I have to say what is up with that page of John getting stabbed, that was weird, I thought it was the other lantern there, Upto I think his name was.

The God-Bullet is an interesting Morrison idea. But this needs to pick up or I see the sounds of "dropped".

upto is from 52:) him and mogo saved the space heroes at the end.

another cool morrison creation,.

[mrNo]

spoiler:


alas, poor lois.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Just read it.

Some crazy s**t happens, and I love it! I don't know why people are saying it's slow paced. I mean, three heroes, and a supporting cast of another got taken out.

Godfrey as a Don King lookalike is awesome, by the way!

[trickster]

Boy, GM must be on drugs. And I mean that in a good way. Some whack stuff happens, and he's pulling no punches.

[Superboy-Prime]

This issue single handedly put Seceret Invasion to shame! I got more out of this then that bendis tripe. Morrison unleashes his craziness on us and I loved every freakin panel of it. Mad Hatter got owned!

[TimothyCallahan]

This is a brutal, powerful, intense comic. That review linked to at the beginning of this thread completely misses one of the main points of the issue: Things do jump around--some things are strangely paced, but that's because EVIL HAS WON. The characters are in a horrible nightmare, controlled by the forces of evil. That's why transitions seem jumpy and characters seem baffled. That's the very point of the story.

Augie or Jonah should be posting my full review shortly, but as much as I like Secret Invasion, Final Crisis is operating at a whole different level. This is very, very good.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

This is a brutal, powerful, intense comic. That review linked to at the beginning of this thread completely misses one of the main points of the issue: Things do jump around--some things are strangely paced, but that's because EVIL HAS WON. The characters are in a horrible nightmare, controlled by the forces of evil. That's why transitions seem jumpy and characters seem baffled. That's the very point of the story.

Augie or Jonah should be posting my full review shortly, but as much as I like Secret Invasion, Final Crisis is operating at a whole different level. This is very, very good.

I think that's the thing I really like about this comic. The good guys have lost already, they just don't know it. They can't go down in glory after an epic battle because evil has overwhelmed them, overpowered them, outsmarted them, and more. So, they are taken out like teenagers in a slasher-fick.

This series is like the anti-Spider-Man vs Firelord. The "unbeatable odds" truly are unbeatable, and it's fascinating to watch.

[Captain Shady]

What happens...

[Maestro]

What happens...

I just read the issue and I'm not sure.

[PatchMadripoor]

wait, there is more to the body count? whuh?

[Superboy-Prime]

oh come on, is this going to be another OMG I didn't understand whining contest again?

the damn thing is spelled out right in your faces. Maybe I'm too smart, but I understood every thing in that issue and no, I'm not a DC history buff in the slightest. Sure there are tidbits in this issue that are left unanswered but its pretty clear there going to get answered throught out the series.

Is it Sheer shock or something that you saw most of the heroes in the book getting owned? was it the amount of "subtle" violence that drained your brain cells of common sense?


what didn't you get?

[Spirit_of_Vengeance]

(Since the other thread doesn't contain more than a review from another site and the usual unsupported hate-rant "omg that iz so bad how culd they feil so much !!11" I propose to discuss the issue here)

The issue itself was pure and simply awsome. Pretty much everything is surrounded by mystery and all that is shown lefts you wanting for more.
I'm interested to see more about the Japanese superheroes and what role they play in the bigger picture. Mister Miracle's appearance was certainly a good surprise.
The exiled Monitor's situation and 'struggle' to find his real identity is also curious, and I'm interesting to see where this will go.
What happened to Dan Turpin from the first issue to now, Darkseid and the other gods's involvement in this, Batman being captured, John defeated and Hal blamed for the murder, the Daily Planet with Perry and Lois inside blowing up and Superman looking desperate as Lois is apparently dead or gravely injured. And people said this is moving slow ?

Not to mention Barry's return, coupled with Wally and Jay's dialogue. Yelling "Wally! Jay! Everybody! RUN!" while being shoned in the last panel that Black Racer is chasing him is awsome. This, coupled with Batman's "They're coming to get us all. Warn the Justice League. Warn everyone !" amplifies the scope of this storyline. And people say that this event isn't epic.

***** of *****

[Radical_dreamer]

I think that's the thing I really like about this comic. The good guys have lost already, they just don't know it. They can't go down in glory after an epic battle because evil has overwhelmed them, overpowered them, outsmarted them, and more. So, they are taken out like teenagers in a slasher-fick.

This series is like the anti-Spider-Man vs Firelord. The "unbeatable odds" truly are unbeatable, and it's fascinating to watch.

Exactly! The problem with comic fans is that a lot of them, are essentially sheep in opinions. Because the entire premise of the book wasn't spoiled before #1 hit (like House of M, Civil War, infinite Crisis, etc...) people started to complain about the "err...So what's the book about?"

Some found it clever and after the first issue it they continued because the story doesn't follow the usual pace of first issues: Chaos and revelation of final villain, culminating to the final battle/spread in the last issue. Oh woopie. And then people bitch that all events are the same. :rolleyes:

This is one of the most fascinating things DC has done in a long time. I never followed countdown so I wasn't outraged at the misfit, but I'm really digging the fact that the Big Picture guys really aren't the JL and other superheroes, they're just slowing realizing that something much bigger has gone on and are, for all intents and purposes, late to the game.

And it's great to see the "Evil has Won" concept isn't a cliche'd of a red sky and bleak future type with hero concentration camps. It's a breakdown of ideas, with Gods crashing around dead, of heroes dying execution style instead of gloriously, of children becoming slaves, and of Villains being successful where they previously failed. The heroes, are really just the last to realize this. I love that it's a human detective that figures out the entire thing a lot sooner than those flying around the sky.

And the glimmer of hope of humanity being saved from its two end points with the opening/closing segments of the first issue is just enough to keep you guessing about how exactly it links to the current heroes....Though I admit that the art for that last page of #1 was more than a bit confusing.

The only segment I don't dig is the Ore of the Worlds but thats just a matter of preference.

Honestly, have fans become so....err, dim that the only thing they can get is HULK SMASH STRANGE or OH NOES EVIL SUPERMAN? Why are they expecting the exact same thing as the last crisis? It hasn't even been 4 years!

No matter, in the end it's gonna get collected and Morrison will be branded a genius even though the same people have been bitching since day one now. Years after its brilliance, but while it's coming out it's "too weird". :rolleyes:

[Superboy-Prime]

Theres already a thread about this issue.
why start a new one?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Theres already a thread about this issue.
why start a new one?

Because they're not talking about what happened in the issue itself?

[CMBMOOL]

So a bunch of stuff happens that I could barely understand, and you guys say Secret Invasion to tough to follow... :tongue:

[Xero]

So a bunch of stuff happens that I could barely understand, and you guys say Secret Invasion to tough to follow... :tongue:

Was that English?

[bjtrdff]

Wow, just what I want in DC's biggest comic event of the year: 10 hard to read pages about unknown japanese superheroes just to get to the fact that Mister Miracle is in a human body, has a 'motherboxxx', and wants to put a team together, rather than you know, talking to his longtime allies in the Justice League.

Makes sense.

[bjtrdff]

oh come on, is this going to be another OMG I didn't understand whining contest again?

the damn thing is spelled out right in your faces. Maybe I'm too smart, but I understood every thing in that issue and no, I'm not a DC history buff in the slightest. Sure there are tidbits in this issue that are left unanswered but its pretty clear there going to get answered throught out the series.

Is it Sheer shock or something that you saw most of the heroes in the book getting owned? was it the amount of "subtle" violence that drained your brain cells of common sense?


what didn't you get?


Are you Grant's grandson, or did you just do cocaine before posting?

It's not a matter of knowing who characters are, or that things are unanswered. It's the layout of the entire book, and the transitions.

[mdg1]

Wow, just what I want in DC's biggest comic event of the year: 10 hard to read pages about unknown japanese superheroes just to get to the fact that Mister Miracle is in a human body, has a 'motherboxxx', and wants to put a team together, rather than you know, talking to his longtime allies in the Justice League.

Makes sense.

Shilo Norman, aka Mister Miracle III, is not Scott Free in a human body.

[Slyfer]

Did Grant Morrison just did what I think he did, holy crap what a set up and damn J.G. Jones Art is KICK ASS! Jesus dude got skills, shit that bar fight in Japan was all kinda kool and the torture scene looks painful. I get the sense of dread that the DC Heroes are at a lost on how to come back from this.

[Slyfer]

dammit all to hell stupid net.

[AlistairCrane]

If Lois Lane is dead, then DC will feel my wrath....:mad: :mad: :mad:

That being said, the Japanese heroes were unnecessary, but the Turpin and JLA/Batman/Alpha Lantern stuff was good. I don't like this issue any more or any less than the first, so consider me satisfied (unless Lois is dead, in which I WILL HATE DC FOREVER! :mad:)

[bjtrdff]

Shilo Norman, aka Mister Miracle III, is not Scott Free in a human body.


Nice call. I thought I recognized the name, but then the motherboxxx statement (and the new gods in human bodies) threw me off and made me reconsider.

[trickster]

Are you Grant's grandson, or did you just do cocaine before posting?

It's not a matter of knowing who characters are, or that things are unanswered. It's the layout of the entire book, and the transitions.
Yes, clearly, being able to follow a book some claim is confusing must mean you're on drugs. :evilangry:

[Sabrinaset]

I'm still not sure why Don King is walking around as a reverend in Final Crisis. Maybe he thinks he's Al Sharpton? :confused:

[bjtrdff]

If Lois Lane is dead, then DC will feel my wrath....:mad: :mad: :mad:

That being said, the Japanese heroes were unnecessary, but the Turpin and JLA/Batman/Alpha Lantern stuff was good. I don't like this issue any more or any less than the first, so consider me satisfied (unless Lois is dead, in which I WILL HATE DC FOREVER! :mad:)

There is no way Lois is dead when this is all said and done. Whether is a resurrection of a bunch of characters, or a universal re-write or whatever, she won't be.


And to be fair, I have to give props to the art itself, which I did like a lot. I just hated the layout of the issue, once again. There's a difference between obscuring details to maintain a mystery, and just having bizarre and confusing angles/cuts.

[Slyfer]

Great job still a little confused and loving the mystery , loving it.

[Paul McEnery]

I'm still not sure why Don King is walking around as a reverend in Final Crisis. Maybe he thinks he's Al Sharpton? :confused:

It is Al Sharpton. But Don King is an evil New God, and he's possessing him.

[Superboy-Prime]

Are you Grant's grandson, or did you just do cocaine before posting?

It's not a matter of knowing who characters are, or that things are unanswered. It's the layout of the entire book, and the transitions.


Both.


and the layouts was completely awesome. the only thing i had problem with was the japanese hero introductions, the layouts made it hard to follow. Besides that the book was easy as pie to follow.

.

[Paul McEnery]

Yes, clearly, being able to follow a book some claim is confusing must mean you're on drugs. :evilangry:

Perhaps on Ritalin. I hear it helps with the ADHD, and there seems to be a lot of that going around. :evilsmile:

[Paul McEnery]

So:

Sonny Sumo, way more badass than before.

And Shilo: back from the dead on the downlow.

Now Sonny had pretty much a Touch of Zen Buddha act going on before -- and with a resolution not unlike Heroes (has he had any appearances since the Fourth World stories?). And Shilo did the Jesus thing back in the Mister Miracle mini, so he's off Darkseid's radar. Is he collecting avatars of the good gods, then? Will we get a Ganesh avatar, or Krishna?

[Superboy-Prime]

Wow, just what I want in DC's biggest comic event of the year: 10 hard to read pages about unknown japanese superheroes just to get to the fact that Mister Miracle is in a human body, has a 'motherboxxx', and wants to put a team together, rather than you know, talking to his longtime allies in the Justice League.

Makes sense.

just give up, the comic pretty much went over your head.


Putting a team together is exactly why the unknown japanese heroes was introduced in the comic. Morrison has said time and time again that he plans to introduce a japansese hero team, so no their introduction wasn't pointless as you seem to imply.

[AllisterH]

The problem with the japanese superhero idea is that I doubt they're going to be shown as even halfway effective.

DC tends to make its non-American based heroes look like fools more often than not.

[dotdotdot]

The problem with the japanese superhero idea is that I doubt they're going to be shown as even halfway effective.

DC tends to make its non-American based heroes look like fools more often than not.

this isn't a story where many heroes are going to be effective, i fail to see the problem.

[dotdotdot]

just give up, the comic pretty much went over your head.


Putting a team together is exactly why the unknown japanese heroes was introduced in the comic. Morrison has said time and time again that he plans to introduce a japansese hero team, so no their introduction wasn't pointless as you seem to imply.

there's also the fact that the league is on darkseid's immediate radar, and we've already seen that he's been hunting down the next generation of heroes in the us......so a superhero themed nightclub in japan might be a great place to try to throw together a new hero team to try to sneak up on a god or two

[bjtrdff]

just give up, the comic pretty much went over your head.


Putting a team together is exactly why the unknown japanese heroes was introduced in the comic. Morrison has said time and time again that he plans to introduce a japansese hero team, so no their introduction wasn't pointless as you seem to imply.


I've also read the same interviews, and just because you think 'something went over my head' doesn't make it so young fella. I enjoyed the book in many ways, but the layout is awful in many parts of it, and some parts (like the intro) ran too long. I didn't say that the introduction of the team was pointless whatsoever, I said it ran too long for an event like this, in my opinion. So why don't you back the **** off, and take of your pretentious comic book guy hat?

My point is that in what is supposed to be the biggest DC event of the year, depict the end of the age of heroes, etc;, I thought that the introduction of new characters could have been done better than showing them in a super complicated and busy montage that took up the better part of a third of the book.

[Maestro]

Lois Lane wouldn't die in such a poorly written issue like this, I hope

[trickster]

Perhaps on Ritalin. I hear it helps with the ADHD, and there seems to be a lot of that going around.

I don't even know what those are.

[dotdotdot]

this issue was amazing. i hope you are feeling a bit of humiliation once responses starting coming in now, botch.

[Tahko Tetsujin]

Just finished reading it and I have these predictions.

Mr Miracle can't recruit the JLA because they are targets. Miracle needs virtual unknowns. Why? Because heroes are going to start getting abducted to turn into soldiers for the evil gods or they will be too distracted with personal tragedy.

So basically, there is Libra's pack of baddies but those guys are in for a hell of a time. Luthor is totally going to make his own group of villians because honestly, do you expect him to follow Libra? Same goes for Joker.

Besides, Libra's plans and the evil god's plans are most likely connected. There is NO way anyone who has either a want to dominate or fear of being controlled is going to side with Libra once that is found out.

The bullet going back in time is an immensely awesome and original concept AND it leads to Barry's return which I'm still convinced Barry is around to teach the other flashes how become one with the speed force and then they will bring back the infinite universe format.

Oh and even though it's totally not related, Superman Prime should become Black Zero. ( I really got nothing on that to go off of except for what makes sense in DC history)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4e/Blackzero.gif/225px-Blackzero.gif

[protege]

Well, i sure hope i'm wrong, but i have a bad feeling dan Turpin isn't gonna make it out of this alive...

[The Batman]

I think Dan Turpin is possessed by Orion.

[SpaceBooger]

I think Dan Turpin is possessed by Orion.

Im glad that I am not the only one who thought that.

[Raker616]

Another mediocre issue, looks like i'm gonna be right about FC this is gonna turn out to be another event that flops from DC man Blackest Night can't come fast enough.

[jv2k]

I wonder which issue is going to reveal that this all takes place on a different earth.

[CMBMOOL]

Exactly! The problem with comic fans is that a lot of them, are essentially sheep in opinions. Because the entire premise of the book wasn't spoiled before #1 hit (like House of M, Civil War, infinite Crisis, etc...) people started to complain about the "err...So what's the book about?"

Some found it clever and after the first issue it they continued because the story doesn't follow the usual pace of first issues: Chaos and revelation of final villain, culminating to the final battle/spread in the last issue. Oh woopie. And then people bitch that all events are the same. :rolleyes:

This is one of the most fascinating things DC has done in a long time. I never followed countdown so I wasn't outraged at the misfit, but I'm really digging the fact that the Big Picture guys really aren't the JL and other superheroes, they're just slowing realizing that something much bigger has gone on and are, for all intents and purposes, late to the game.

And it's great to see the "Evil has Won" concept isn't a cliche'd of a red sky and bleak future type with hero concentration camps. It's a breakdown of ideas, with Gods crashing around dead, of heroes dying execution style instead of gloriously, of children becoming slaves, and of Villains being successful where they previously failed. The heroes, are really just the last to realize this. I love that it's a human detective that figures out the entire thing a lot sooner than those flying around the sky.

And the glimmer of hope of humanity being saved from its two end points with the opening/closing segments of the first issue is just enough to keep you guessing about how exactly it links to the current heroes....Though I admit that the art for that last page of #1 was more than a bit confusing.

The only segment I don't dig is the Ore of the Worlds but thats just a matter of preference.

Honestly, have fans become so....err, dim that the only thing they can get is HULK SMASH STRANGE or OH NOES EVIL SUPERMAN? Why are they expecting the exact same thing as the last crisis? It hasn't even been 4 years!

No matter, in the end it's gonna get collected and Morrison will be branded a genius even though the same people have been bitching since day one now. Years after its brilliance, but while it's coming out it's "too weird". :rolleyes:
You're right as I'm someone like you described, but I sort of like how DC expands the 'Evil Rules' quote. :frown:

[JWangSDC]

I disliked this comic and hope it was over my head. Because if it wasn't, then it just sucks. All I know is that it isn't for me and for the first time ever I won't be buying a major event, I'll certainly review it when its all over though. So disappointed.

[protege]

I think Dan Turpin is possessed by Orion.

Not sure I like that idea either.

[jsf]

I think Dan Turpin is possessed by Orion.

I think he might be possessed by Kalibak. I think the Sumo dude at the beginning was Orion. Of course, who knows?

Overall, this series hasn't really wowed me yet. Two issues in, and I just don't feel the threat. It's not bad ... but it really isn't enthralling either.

[ZT4]

"Superman: Beyond" will be tying into the Lois development, so I wouldnt panic just yet...probably after that ends if it goes where I think it's going...

[xnef1025]

From what the reverend was saying, it sounds like Darkside is the one that hitched a ride in Turpin's head. His reflection in the broken mirror at Hatter's place even had the craggy look of Darkside.

[Omega Alpha]

This was an improvement from the first issue. The time-travelling bullet is a pretty Morrisonian concept, and of course awesome. Even if too convoluted, I like the direction this is going.

Oh, and who's thinking that with that funeral speech Morrison is:
1) Admitting J'onn will be back soon in the hands of another writer and his death doesn't really matter

or

2) Hinting that he will bring J'onn back himself?

[J. Robb]

From what the reverend was saying, it sounds like Darkside is the one that hitched a ride in Turpin's head. His reflection in the broken mirror at Hatter's place even had the craggy look of Darkside.
Yeah, definitely seemed like Darkseid to me. The Reverend saying "Your son, Kalibak the Cruel" to him made it pretty obvious.

As for the rest of the issue, I thought it was better than the first and I'm glad the tension is getting ratcheted up. I think the Daily Planet explosion should have been in the first issue, it was more symbolic of something big happening than J'onn's undignified murder. Barry's return wasn't all that exciting because he's shown up before, but I did like his dialogue on the splash page: "RUN!" Very appropriate.

So far though, this story seems less about how something big and evil is brewing and more about how unorganized and unprepared the heroes seem to be. In Morrison's All-Star Superman, for example, I don't think there's anyway someone would be able to explode a bomb in the Daily Planet. Superman would just be too aware of such a possibility he wouldn't let it happen. But then again, considering this story involves reverse-time bullets, there could be more to the explosion...

[Aaron King]

I liked most of the issue. I, too, thought the first few pages could've been condensed some and thought the layouts could've been a bit better. And I also thought Turpin might be Orion even though Good/Godfrey thinks he's Darkseid. I mean, throughout the issue, we see Orion leaking away into the Source... and Turpin slowly changing. It's a neat possibility.

So... I liked it, I guess. I'm waiting for it to build. I think it'll get better.

[XPac]

Hmmm... I found it a bit convoluted, and I still think the first 2 issues should have been a double sized issue one instead. But that said, I found it to be a very interesting read with a lot of intriquing things happening.

And the idea in general of evil winning is just so dam cool... it's frankly shocking that others haven't done it before. It's just fun seeing the good guys clueless and stumped left and right.

[the4thpip]

That is the most worthless review of a comic I have ever read in my life.
When he starts lamenting about how much of a hack Jones is, anybody with
half a brain is going to stop taking anything he says seriously.

I had to chuckle at this part:

Grant Morrison himself said it was The Lord of the Rings of the DCU, Lord of the Rings wasn't half assed. There's a reason that it's considered the greatest novel ever written.

Who considers LOTR the greatest novel ever written? I mean, I love the book. But it is no "Tale of Two Cities" or "War and Peace" or even "Grapes of Wrath."

[4PointOh]

My review:

http://sonofbaldwin.blogspot.com/2008/06/review-final-crisis-2.html

[dotdotdot]

My review:

http://sonofbaldwin.blogspot.com/2008/06/review-final-crisis-2.html

that's sort of a rough review. the first paragraph doesn't seem to really ring true, and there's that awkward tarentino reference that doesn't need to be there for any reason. really needs work at figuring out how to guage the writer's/artist's intentions....putting the sonny sumo bit down to quote unquote "badass" instead of some brutal violence coming out of someone who maybe didn't used to be this way ((in the same issue where other heroic figures find themselves losing it) is just sloppy. and then there's sentence fragments like "trendy, you-have-to-be-this-elitist-to-get-in club." couldn't that have been said better?
and making judgements on top of not knowing who sonny sumo is, what the deal is with mister miracle (at least you admit these shortcomings of course)

i dunno i'm only halfway done and it's just sort of rushed and rough. there's plenty of decent writing here too of course. keep at it.

edit: to continue, when bringing up race a much more obvious new orleans/bludhaven relationship seems crucial

[IvCNuB4]

Theres already a thread about this issue.
why start a new one?

He did the same thing over at Newsarama (http://www.newsarama.com/common/community/forums/?plckForumPage=ForumDiscussion&plckDiscussionId=Cat%3a46ada8ea-92e4-4618-9265-5be7cad0342bForum%3aa8187eb8-72cf-4029-8dc7-4606779dcdaaDiscussion%3a0b4d5db9-e32b-41ec-82f1-eafdaa64ec79&plckCategoryCurrentPage=0) ....

[Tom]

I don't understand the complaints about the layouts. Except for one two-page spread, every other page in the book had standard layouts.

[spidervenom]

I thought the issue was pretty good. I don't understand why people are confused on whats going on with this issue. I mean it's not like everyone here was wearing beer goggle's while reading it, right?

[dotdotdot]

I thought the issue was pretty good. I don't understand why people are confused on whats going on with this issue. I mean it's not like everyone here was wearing beer goggle's while reading it, right?

it's just become the sort of antiDC "i spent all my money on countdown" rallying cry

[DarkCrisis]

This series continues to be bad.

[dotdotdot]

This series continues to be bad.

excellent and convincing analysis

[ultramandingo]

.............crisis shmisis - who needs all that lantern hooey and the dopey moniters - gimme more sonny sumo and super young team - you must be super cool to proceed !

[jv2k]

Turpin can't be kilabak or darksied because they already made appearances. The reflection in the mirror gave him eyebrows similar to Orion.

Also is anyone else currious why the silver surfer knockoff with the skies is after Barry?

[4PointOh]

that's sort of a rough review. the first paragraph doesn't seem to really ring true, and there's that awkward tarentino reference that doesn't need to be there for any reason. really needs work at figuring out how to guage the writer's/artist's intentions....putting the sonny sumo bit down to quote unquote "badass" instead of some brutal violence coming out of someone who maybe didn't used to be this way ((in the same issue where other heroic figures find themselves losing it) is just sloppy. and then there's sentence fragments like "trendy, you-have-to-be-this-elitist-to-get-in club." couldn't that have been said better?
and making judgements on top of not knowing who sonny sumo is, what the deal is with mister miracle (at least you admit these shortcomings of course)

i dunno i'm only halfway done and it's just sort of rushed and rough. there's plenty of decent writing here too of course. keep at it.

edit: to continue, when bringing up race a much more obvious new orleans/bludhaven relationship seems crucial

Ah! A review of the review. Thanks for your feedback.

On Tarantino: the scene reminded me ENTIRELY of one of his films, so I thought I'd point out the similarities and the differences.

[spidervenom]

it's just become the sort of antiDC "i spent all my money on countdown" rallying cry

lucky for me I dropped it after six issues, best decision ever. Also, I noticed that one of drawing's by nix uotan a.k.a that black pony tail guy, was Dr Mannhatten!

[dotdotdot]

Turpin can't be kilabak or darksied because they already made appearances. The reflection in the mirror gave him eyebrows similar to Orion.

Also is anyone else currious why the silver surfer knockoff with the skies is after Barry?

dude no. they specifically mentioned how quickly the bodies they inhabit fail them. it's darkseid again.

[Valk-Ar]

I think a lot of people are complaining too much.

Sure the Japanese sumo thing is absolute nonsense, but obviously the chap who got pinged with the motherboxx has some connection to the overall series.

Barry's back, that's all that matters.

[dotdotdot]

Ah! A review of the review. Thanks for your feedback.

On Tarantino: the scene reminded me ENTIRELY of one of his films, so I thought I'd point out the similarities and the differences.

i get that, but it comes across like the first analogy or comparison that came to mind, and then i don't think you do a good job of convincing yourself or the reader that it needs to be there. you sort of struggle with its validity in the paragraph.
just seems like a flimsy comparison, a real stretch. that's just me though. kudos.

[dotdotdot]

lucky for me I dropped it after six issues, best decision ever. Also, I noticed that one of drawing's by nix uotan a.k.a that black pony tail guy, was Dr Mannhatten!

yeah i thought that was the manhattan symbol. that panel of nix sketching might have been my favorite thing in the issue.

[Froggy]

this was a better issue than the first

some HOLY S*(T! moments

and YAY! shiloh back

[reta-winter soldier]

damn it I love this issue, I dont know about anybody else but this did feel like a crisis, jonn is dead, batman captured, lois( well I'm bying into that one yet). I cant wait for issue #3,I'm normally a marvel zombie but this beats secret invasion by far

[40footwolf]

Honestly, the only complaint I have is that this should have been the first issue. THIS is what should have been going on right out of the gate.

[Froggy]

Honestly, the only complaint I have is that this should have been the first issue. THIS is what should have been going on right out of the gate.

I agree with you on that

but if the issues keep building like this man it'll be a good series

[ultramandingo]

.........so whos that "god bullet " barrys chasing heading for ?

[4PointOh]

i get that, but it comes across like the first analogy or comparison that came to mind, and then i don't think you do a good job of convincing yourself or the reader that it needs to be there. you sort of struggle with its validity in the paragraph.
just seems like a flimsy comparison, a real stretch. that's just me though. kudos.

Oh, I'm convinced and I believe I make that clear. Though, as a reader if I didn't convince you, that's another matter entirely. I'll work on that in the next review.

And the Bludhaven/Katrina comparison seemed too obvious to mention (and I think JMS handled it better over in THOR). I was more interested in what Morrison himself had to say about themes of race than I was in drawing parallels.

[IvCNuB4]

Also is anyone else currious why the silver surfer knockoff with the skies is after Barry?

That's Black Racer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Racer)....

.........so whos that "god bullet " barrys chasing heading for ?

I assumed that Barry is chasing it through time and it got pulled out of the vortex accidenatlly with him. Perhaps he's been chasing it since it killed Orion ...

[J. Robb]

.........so whos that "god bullet " barrys chasing heading for ?
Ah, now I see. I didn't realize that was a bullet and Barry was chasing it. It looked like something floating behind him to me, and I was wondering what it was. I think it's because Barry has a darker outline than the bullet, making him appear closer (to me, anyways.)

[PatchMadripoor]

Lois Lane wouldn't die in such a poorly written issue like this, I hope

Stranger things have happened.

[Buried Alien]

I enjoyed FINAL CRISIS # 2. It doesn't have the immediate Wham! Bam! impact that COIE and INFINITE CRISIS did, but that's to be expected. I think that Morrison is aiming to have a Crisis like no other that we've seen, which is great because we've already done the more traditional Crises enough already.

Heh. How did I *know* Morrison and Co. were going to keep Barry in reserve until the last panel? Guess we'll have to wait to # 3 to see where that's going.

Old continuity note: Jay mentioned that he and Barry had first met at that strip joint in Central City, back when the same building hosted the city's community center. This must be the New Earth (i.e. Post-INFINITE CRISIS) version of the event because it doesn't jive with either the Pre-COIE or the Pre-INFINITE CRISIS tellings. Pre-COIE, Barry discovered Earth-Two while he was performing a rope trick for some kids at a charity event in Earth-One's Central City (possibly that strip joint back when it was still a community center/theater), and ended up meeting Jay at the latter's house in Keystone City on Earth-Two. Post-COIE (and Pre-INFINITE CRISIS), Barry also met Jay at the latter's house in Keystone City...which the Fiddler and the Shade (I think) had hidden in a dimensional pocket for decades. In either case, the first meeting between Barry and Jay took place at Jay's house. That seems to be no longer the case.

And just how *did* Barry get back, and why now?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[XPac]

Barry's back, that's all that matters.

Yeah, because god forbid DC should have any less than 3 simotanous Flash's.

[misterbonesy]

I'm sure these Japanese super-heroes will leave as lasting an impression on the DCU as the Chinese heroes (The Ten, I believe?) from 52. I wish they would've used established characters instead of trying to get us to care about a whole new super-group in the span of a few issues (that never works). There are many from 52 alone that we were promised big things from, who have simply faded into oblivion: Batwoman, Super Chief, Ralph & Sue Dibny: Ghost Detectives, etc. But that would've necessitated editorial direction, a little more creativity, and some respect for continuity, which FC seems intent on avoiding at all costs.

There might be a decent story in here eventually, but it seems is less a "DC event" than an event for those who read Morrison's SEVEN SOLDIERS. I don't know anything about Shiloh Norman/Mr. Miracle, but at least I know from whence he came. A new reader could not pick up on most of the characters, I'd imagine.

Don't know what the deal is with the Alpha Lanterns, but it was embarrassing the way Hal Jordan just let his "boss" push him around so easily. Huh???? Is that the new Jordan status quo - wimp?

So far, moving way too slowly, but being the sucker fanboy that I am I'm sure I'll stick it out.

[XPac]

Don't know what the deal is with the Alpha Lanterns, but it was embarrassing the way Hal Jordan just let his "boss" push him around so easily. Huh???? Is that the new Jordan status quo - wimp?



I didn't like that either. From what little of them we've seen, these Alpha Lanterns haven't really done jack. Where they off having this air of superioroity over someone like Hal is a bit strange to me. I sort of don't buy it.

[SpaceBooger]

Did anyone notice that following Barry on the last page was possibly the "Morticoccus virus" from countdown?

[Paul McEnery]

Ah, now I see. I didn't realize that was a bullet and Barry was chasing it. It looked like something floating behind him to me, and I was wondering what it was. I think it's because Barry has a darker outline than the bullet, making him appear closer (to me, anyways.)

I think you're right. I think the bullet is long gone. But maybe not!

[Buried Alien]

Did anyone notice that following Barry on the last page was possibly the "Morticoccus virus" from countdown?

That was the so-called time-traveling "god-killing" bullet. Barry's apparently trying to catch it before it strikes its victim.

Poor Barry...went to his death running to avert a Crisis, and now comes back to life running to avert a Crisis.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[SpaceBooger]

That was the so-called time-traveling "god-killing" bullet. Barry's apparently trying to catch it before it strikes its victim.

Poor Barry...went to his death running to avert a Crisis, and now comes back to life running to avert a Crisis.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

ahh... do you think that the bullet looks as if it contains the Morticoccus virus?

[Paul McEnery]

So, it's too early to tell, but I think that, just like Seven Soldiers, there's the Structure of Seven at work here. Which is to say all the occult connotations: the planets, the chakras, etc, etc.

We start with Mars/Belly chakra/Anger. That tapered off in the second half of the first issue, and now we see that it was transitioning into whatever damn planet it is and Heart chakra/Compassion. The heartburst of J'onn rhymes with the Sonny Sumo action. And then that transitions towards Throat chakra/Communication -- and who's the God of communication? I'll give you a clue -- he's got wings on his hat.

And we might well look at Shiloh's Jesus and Sumo's Buddha as desecrated compassion figures. Except Shiloh's already defeated Darkseid -- with a bullet to the head, like Orion!

And it's worth noting that we hear already that J'Onn's death means that communications are already down.

[Buried Alien]

ahh... do you think that the bullet looks as if it contains the Morticoccus virus?

That could be what it is. We already know its effect on humans, but it kills gods as well.

It seemed to be shot out of Metron's Moebius Chair, which is where Barry and the Black Racer were running out of too. Why the Moebius Chair? How did it end up in Central City? Wasn't the Moebius Chair last sighted with Metron in FINAL CRISIS # 1?

Questions to be resolved.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Paul McEnery]

That could be what it is. We already know its effect on humans, but it kills gods as well.

It seemed to be shot out of Metron's Moebius Chair, which is where Barry and the Black Racer were running out of too. Why the Moebius Chair? How did it end up in Central City? Wasn't the Moebius Chair last sighted with Metron in FINAL CRISIS # 1?
Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Questions to be resolved.

In that very spot, under Libra's arse.

[SpaceBooger]

That could be what it is. We already know its effect on humans, but it kills gods as well.

It seemed to be shot out of Metron's Moebius Chair, which is where Barry and the Black Racer were running out of too. Why the Moebius Chair? How did it end up in Central City? Wasn't the Moebius Chair last sighted with Metron in FINAL CRISIS # 1?

Questions to be resolved.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

In Final Crisis #1 Dr Light and the Mirror Master got the chair per Libra's request from a junk yard or something.

[4thHorseman]

I thought the issue was pretty damn good, and is making everything start to rev up. Issue 1 was a great setup, this issue is a good lead-in to whatever hellacious battle is going to occur starting next issue.

So Most Excellent Superbat's power is...being fantastic?

Awesome.

[Buried Alien]

In Final Crisis #1 Dr Light and the Mirror Master got the chair per Libra's request from a junk yard or something.

How odd.

Didn't Metron visit Anthro in FINAL CRISIS # 1? Was the Moebius Chair with him?

Metron doesn't just get separated from the Moebius Chair like that. Are we going to be met with another New God's corpse soon?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[xnef1025]

How odd.

Didn't Metron visit Anthro in FINAL CRISIS # 1? Was the Moebius Chair with him?

Metron doesn't just get separated from the Moebius Chair like that. Are we going to be met with another New God's corpse soon?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
Yeah he did, but that was a million years ago. Metron is dead now, just like all the New Genesis New Gods, following events similar to but not exactly like DotNG. How the Moebius Chair wound up in a junk yard is as much a mystery as how the Apocolypse New Gods wound up in human avatars.

I didn't like that either. From what little of them we've seen, these Alpha Lanterns haven't really done jack. Where they off having this air of superioroity over someone like Hal is a bit strange to me. I sort of don't buy it.

Have to remember that a single Alpha Lantern has significantly more power than a regular GL. They also can quickly drain power rings or inhibit their function from short distances as seen when John was attacked. They are also the Internal Affairs division of the GLC, so even a hot headed show off like Hal Jordan may think twice before mouthing off, just to save himself hassles later down the road. He's without fear, not without tact... that's Gardner's gig. Also, many of the Alphas were Lost Lanterns who still hold grudges toward Hal for the whole Paralax thing, and Hal still carries a little guilty feelings for what happened to them since a good dude like Jordan would never feel 100% redeemed to himself.

[Herr Mike]

Haven't read it yet. The preview art does indeed look like crap, but any comic with a guy named Most Excellent Superbat can't be bad.

[GRANT!]

Another mediocre issue, looks like i'm gonna be right about FC this is gonna turn out to be another event that flops from DC man Blackest Night can't come fast enough.

Or it could be just a self fufilling prophecy.

[DarKye]

How odd.

Didn't Metron visit Anthro in FINAL CRISIS # 1? Was the Moebius Chair with him?

Metron doesn't just get separated from the Moebius Chair like that. Are we going to be met with another New God's corpse soon?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

It could be the chair of Fourth World Metron, whose spirit is inhabiting a human host for now and in the future will claim it to become the Fifth World version, then go back in time to visit Anthro, etc.

I thought this issue was great. The Daily Planet scene was a pretty "what the hell" moment. Ditto with Darkseid inhabiting Turpin.

By the way, I don't know Sonny Sumo's story, but is there any chance he may be Orion's new host?
I know it doesn't exactly jive with the Seven Soldiers' Orion, but he may be forced to jump from host to host.

[Will.S]

How odd.

Didn't Metron visit Anthro in FINAL CRISIS # 1? Was the Moebius Chair with him?

Metron doesn't just get separated from the Moebius Chair like that. Are we going to be met with another New God's corpse soon?

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)
I think there may be two Moebius chair's, the reborn Metron probably has one while Libra may have the old one although that's just a guess.

Anyway, after having read this a few times over I really enjoyed this much more than the first. Lots of things heading into their own directions and the chaos is really coming hard and fast. I loved the opening scene in Japan with the new Japanese super team and Sonny Sumo, it's a very good set up and an unexpected way to start another Crisis issue. Since most of the characters shown here are new characters you don't have to worry too much about prior history and we get to know them through other characters referring to them by name.

I've never read any books starring Sonny so this is my first exposure to him but he already looks like a really cool character. Does he have like some insanely good durability or super strength or does he just have very high degree martial arts mastery and healing? I got a kick out of seeing Shiloh pop up again, I'm glad that he's back and it looks like he's going to be the Mr. Miracle of the 5th World now.

More interesting developments with Nix Uotan although it reminds me a bit too much of Black Adam trying to get the magic word to get his powers back during 52 and his mini series. Check out the drawings on his table, could be interesting new characters or new monitors to look out for and the dude in blue looks sort of like Dr. Manhattan from Watchmen but with hair. There's also a picture of what seems to be the Watch...er Monitor who betrayed him. Regarding Turpin, I think he's either possessed by the anti-life after Dark Side showed him the missing kids or Darkseid chose a new vessel in Turpin who gets really violent with the Mad Hatter.

It's nice to see that there's a funeral for Martian Manhunter and it has nice details like John Stewart providing the bubbled atmosphere. Libra is an interesting character, it looks like he and the Secret Society trying to add to the chaos that the New Gods like Darkseid and Granny Goodness are already causing and by taking out the people closest to Superman via Clayface I think Lex is going to have to give him props for that and at least acknowledge that he can get it done. BTW does anyone else think that the person who attacked John Stewart was really the Wizard of the Secret Society? He had the green cloak and the white gloves and it looks like Alpha Lantern Kraken framed it on Hal through Granny Goodness.

Speaking of the Alpha Lanterns, I didn't really like their attitudes either but it was really mostly Kraken who did most of the talking and I think we're supposed to dislike them the same way people do with the FBI and the CIA when they take jurisdiction over a certain case and they act all high and mighty. Also if you notice Batman acts a bit strangely, I didn't really get why he said "Hh. Superman, Superman..." and why he asked Alpha Lantern Kraken that "John had a hell of a hook didn't he?".

Lastly the Flashes had a great scene in the end and the time bullet/god bullet is such a Morrison concept you already knew where he was going to take that. It's hard to say if the Moebius chair is what really killed Orion since we never saw that particular battle but it's interesting to see it in action by the end of this issue. Plus we get to see that awesome last page splash of Barry telling them to run (while I'm assuming he
s going after the bullet) and being chased by the Black Racer.

I'm not sure why people are complaining about the art so much, I mean it's not amazingly spectacular but it's still very good and really crisp with Alex Sinclair's colors. I'm still desperately waiting to see more New Gods redesigns within the next few issues like more Metron, Darkseid, and maybe even Mr. Miracle and Big Barda but the issue looked solid if not good. Lots of nice touches in detail and pretty much everyone save for Barry/Wally looked unique, plus I love J.G.'s use of tech design for the fire pit, the restraining device for Batman, and the opening cyborg character the MegaYakusa.

Overall while this could have been put together with #1 for a more effective start to FC, this issue gets the ball rolling nicely with such good stuff packed into the issue which leaves me wondering how Morrison is going to fill out the rest of the issues. However he still has 5 more books to go and since they run 32-40 pages long it's at least more pages than what Secret Invasion is giving us.

9/10

[chriskenny]

I think Batman saying John had a hell of a right hook was Morrison's way of indicating that Batman deduced that the Alpha Lantern was the culprit and that John put up quite a fight. Unfortunatley, Batman's supposition isn't entirely accurate based on what was shown.

[Infra-Man]

Hmmm... I found it a bit convoluted, and I still think the first 2 issues should have been a double sized issue one instead. But that said, I found it to be a very interesting read with a lot of intriquing things happening.

You know, after getting to the end of issue two, I agree on the double-sized first issue idea. The end of #2 certainly had more of a "crazy stuff is coming down the pipe" cliffhanger than the first issue.

Liked #2 better than #1. It felt more like the actual story rather than the set up to the actual story. Some great "Oh crap" moments in there and there is a definite sense of the tension ratcheting up.

It'll be interesting to see how things change with two artists on board and if the art quality will suffer in an attempt to meet deadlines. The art in this issue was still good, but some pages seemed to have lost a step from the quality of the first issue.

[josh straightedge]

I thought this issue was much better than the first. Not as great as some lead you to believe, but the book is definitely going in a better direction. Hopefully by issue 3 I start to really enjoy it because I'm giving it a chance.

Things I liked:

Libra and his interactions with other villains. I've only read of him in this series and an issue of JLA that came out a month ago but I have taken a liking to him and the common earth villains.

I like that the GLC is playing more of a part and maybe not in a good way, especially with the Alpha Lanterns.

The fact that the heroes are getting beaten and/or picked off. The big guns are feeling it with Hal arrested and Bats taken in.

I hate Lois and I hope she's toast.


Things I don't like:

Barry Allen. Stay dead. You aren't Wally West, whom I've always found more intriguing and entertaining.

And please, he died an issue ago, but already we're hinting at Martian Manhunter being resurrected? Screw you!

I also don't like Shilo Norman in 7 Soldiers or this. Scott Free is Mister Miracle to me and they don't use him nearly enough as it is.

Japanese heroes? Just nothing to go off of them yet. Not really a great introduction and the 2-page spread was paneled weak.

And maybe I'm not as much of a fan of J.G. Jones but I wasn't a fan of the art. I hear Pacheco is going to fill in soon and I prefer his pencil work much more.

Still nothing great but I'm still reading. I didn't feel like I had to read posts on the 'net by the writer to figure out things...because no one should. This issue was much easier to follow. If they'd combined both issues to start this, I bet a lot of the gripes and complaints would have gone away.

[chriskenny]

You know, after getting to the end of issue two, I agree on the double-sized first issue idea. The end of #2 certainly had more of a "crazy stuff is coming down the pipe" cliffhanger than the first issue.

Liked #2 better than #1. It felt more like the actual story rather than the set up to the actual story. Some great "Oh crap" moments in there and there is a definite sense of the tension ratcheting up.

It'll be interesting to see how things change with two artists on board and if the art quality will suffer in an attempt to meet deadlines. The art in this issue was still good, but some pages seemed to have lost a step from the quality of the first issue.

I agree. I almost think the first issue should have been DCU #0, which would have been more substantial, too.

[Sean Walsh]

I'm interested to see how Sonny Sumo is suddenly in the present day, since last we saw him (in Kirby's FOREVER PEOPLE) he was sent back in time and lived a full life in feudal Japan.

........perhaps he led a full life, but not quite a complete life? As in, "He's been alive ever since then?" I don't think Morrison would undo or totally dismiss something Kirby did.

Also - kudos to seeing Mokkari and Simyan once again. (Darkseid's monster makers - and clones of the originals, who died back when the Fourth World was first introduced in JIMMY OLSEN). And if I'm seeing things right, is Morrison having them create the animal people that populate the ol' KAMANDI comics? Ingenious.

Morrison's stories definitely require re-reading, but he always makes it worth it. Nonetheless I'm really enjoying this.

.........my only complaint is that the nonsense of COUNTDOWN and DOTNG is making reading FINAL CRISIS a bit too headachy for me at times. I still have faith, but it's a little weird trying to make sense of it all, since COUNTDOWN and DOTNG just got it all so wrong...

[J. Robb]

Japanese heroes? Just nothing to go off of them yet. Not really a great introduction and the 2-page spread was paneled weak.
I liked the "Rising Sun" panels. It added to the scene's flavour.

[chriskenny]

I'm interested to see how Sonny Sumo is suddenly

Also - kudos to seeing Mokkari and Simyan once again. (Darkseid's monster makers - and clones of the originals, who died back when the Fourth World was first introduced in JIMMY OLSEN). And if I'm seeing things right, is Morrison having them create the animal people that populate the ol' KAMANDI comics? Ingenious.


I wondered that, because the monster on the table looked like the Tiger character from the Captain Marvel corner of the universe, and the notion of a light-hearted animal like that being dissected was almost too disturbing! Ha.

[OptimusPrime114]

Oh, please tell me that DC's not gonna pull an OMD on clois!

I'm still recovering! Please tell me everything is gonna be ok. PLEASE!!!:frown:

p.s.: If they do, not only will I get extremely angry, but I bet the Seigel/Shuster families will sue DC for this junk!

[Will.S]

I think Batman saying John had a hell of a right hook was Morrison's way of indicating that Batman deduced that the Alpha Lantern was the culprit and that John put up quite a fight. Unfortunatley, Batman's supposition isn't entirely accurate based on what was shown.
Hmm, now that you mention the fight he had with the robed figure I get the context now but I'm still wondering how Batman knew the whole "right hook" thing. Like I said, the robbed figure looks more like it could be the Wizard working in conjunction with Libra or Granny Goodness but I guess we'll have to wait to be sure.

I agree. I almost think the first issue should have been DCU #0, which would have been more substantial, too.
Yeah if you added #0, particularly the parts with Libra and the recaps of COIE it would have been really meaty but I'm curious as to where that will be collected.

.........my only complaint is that the nonsense of COUNTDOWN and DOTNG is making reading FINAL CRISIS a bit too headachy for me at times. I still have faith, but it's a little weird trying to make sense of it all, since COUNTDOWN and DOTNG just got it all so wrong...
Well so far it looks like the most rock solid tie in continuity wise is Salvation run since that's been referenced quite a bit, especially here. BTW was the Tiger looking dude on the table a known character or not really?

[josh straightedge]

I liked the "Rising Sun" panels. It added to the scene's flavour.

To me, it looked very similar to something put together by JH Williams, but I'm more of a fan of his art style and having someone else put it together like that just didn't click for me.

[xnef1025]

Look at the art on Kraken's hand 3 panels before Batman says the "right hook" comment. He was using those big Bat powers of observation to realize that Kraken had cracks and an imprint of John's ring on her hand where she stopped his punch from earlier. Kraken's body was definately John's attacker, but exactly who was in the driver's seat is kind of unclear.... probably Granny though from her dialogue.

[Infra-Man]

I agree. I almost think the first issue should have been DCU #0, which would have been more substantial, too.

I agree. FC #2 is in some sense the real FC #1.

[Paul McEnery]

I wondered that, because the monster on the table looked like the Tiger character from the Captain Marvel corner of the universe, and the notion of a light-hearted animal like that being dissected was almost too disturbing! Ha.

There was a which planet are we on moment earlier, with the Atomic Knights. And there's a Kamandi lookalike in the prison. So why not Tawny on the table? And why not him as a basis for the Kamandiverse?

[4thHorseman]

There was a which planet are we on moment earlier, with the Atomic Knights. And there's a Kamandi lookalike in the prison. So why not Tawny on the table? And why not him as a basis for the Kamandiverse?

I think that's the real Kamandi. Jones made a comment that he was in issue 2, and I'm guessin that is him.

[Will.S]

Look at the art on Kraken's hand 3 panels before Batman says the "right hook" comment. He was using those big Bat powers of observation to realize that Kraken had cracks and an imprint of John's ring on her hand where she stopped his punch from earlier. Kraken's body was definately John's attacker, but exactly who was in the driver's seat is kind of unclear.... probably Granny though from her dialogue.
Ahh, yes you're right.

For some reason I thought the ring emblem on her hand was part of her design and was there all the time rather than having been an actual imprint from John's ring. Nice catch.

[chriskenny]

Ahh, yes you're right.

For some reason I thought the ring emblem on her hand was part of her design and was there all the time rather than having been an actual imprint from John's ring. Nice catch.

Yeah, I did too! Like a ring embedded into their palms, just as their batteries replace their heart. But that does make sense, and it is pretty cool.

[Patrion]

I'm going to be honest. I'm a half-Marvel/halfDC reader, but it's really 65%/35%, respectively, but I do keep track of the majority of the DCU, I'm pretty up to date on everything, THANK YOU WIKIPEDIA!, but Final Crisis is crazy confusing! I'm following it all, for the most part anyway, but as for understanding it, well that is another story!

[Forseti]

How the hell did they get to Mars for the burial after the Alpha Lanterns sealed off earth?

Edit: typo fix

[josh straightedge]

How the hell did they get to Mars for the burial after the Alpha Lanterns sealed of earth?

Faked just like the moon landing...

Although seriously, how did they get his body back? I probably missed that one.

[Froggy]

anybody else think tuprin has orion's soul?

[botch]

Did Grant Morrison just did what I think he did, holy crap what a set up and damn J.G. Jones Art is KICK ASS!

Guess I have a different idea of what Kick ass is.

[botch]

this issue was amazing. i hope you are feeling a bit of humiliation once responses starting coming in now, botch.

why would i feel humiliation. if people think this art is good then they need to read more comics.

[josh straightedge]

Guess I have a different idea of what Kick ass is.

Kick-Ass is a better comic.

[botch]

I had to chuckle at this part:



Who considers LOTR the greatest novel ever written? I mean, I love the book. But it is no "Tale of Two Cities" or "War and Peace" or even "Grapes of Wrath."

Time Magazine, millions of people surveyed, various newspapers. arent you the guy who said the brilliant quote in my sig. seriously this is another great quote by you. Lord of the Rings is considered the greatest novel ever written.

[botch]

Also is anyone else currious why the silver surfer knockoff with the skies is after Barry?

because it;s the black racer. you know...the black racer?

[dotdotdot]

why would i feel humiliation. if people think this art is good then they need to read more comics.

compare it to the art in wanted or marvel boy. also point out similar work that supposedly works this great if you want us to explain how spectacular and nuanced the work in final crisis was. even the preview art showcased this. you're out of your element, donny.

[dotdotdot]

Time Magazine, millions of people surveyed, various newspapers. arent you the guy who said the brilliant quote in my sig. seriously this is another great quote by you. Lord of the Rings is considered the greatest novel ever written.

no. no large group of people consider it the greatest novel. don quixote holds that title, sorry.

[josh straightedge]

f it, sarcasm is dead to the internet.

[berk]

If you want to compare it Lord of the Rings, I'd ask - was everything revealed in the first chapter of that book? IIRC it was all about a birthday party. Heaven help Tolkien if he'd serialised it to comic book fans. Looks to me like the first three issues of FC will take us up to the Council of Elron, where everybody gets clued in to what's going on. Up to then it's just vague hints and ominous signs of just how high the stakes are.

[bjtrdff]

Time Magazine, millions of people surveyed, various newspapers. arent you the guy who said the brilliant quote in my sig. seriously this is another great quote by you. Lord of the Rings is considered the greatest novel ever written.

Time magazine and millions of teenagers and people who only read the book after seeing the movie. Not by very many others. Popular doesn't mean greatest. A poll on the BBC or amazon doesn't cement it. It's a great book, but calling it the greatest one ever is super extreme.

[hYPE]

Was I the only person that was confused with this issue? Especially with what Wally was talking about before Bart showed up.

[bjtrdff]

PS, does anyone have the link to that DD interview where he mentions DOTNG and Countdown?

[Elitehaxxor]

This issue was great. I think the pace is great, was a very interesting book. I am hooked and will definately see this through. I can't wait to see what happens, and how the heros get out of this (if they even do?) mess they are in. Two thumbs up. One question though sorry if this was answered, the image showing Libra walk that guy back into the building and saying "now about what you owe me...(or something similar) what exactly does he "owe" him? Libra is supposed to bring balance so does that mean with J'Ohn dead that guy is going to die as well or am I totally off base.

[Jack Zodiac]

Way to kick it up, Morrison.

Last month was slow and didn't really hit you with an "oh !@#$" moment. Even J'onn's death was pretty lackluster. But this issue was packed with "oh !@#$!" A violent, confused Sonny Sumo. Turpin completely losing his !@#$. John getting near crucified by one of his Corpsmen. Hal Jodan being arrested by Green Lantern's internal affairs. An Alpha Lantern being corrupted by Darkseid and taking down Batman. The !@#$ing Evil Factory is back! And actually evil this time, instead of ridiculously goofy. And Clark being attacked at the Daily Planet- Clark, not Superman- with Lois as a possible casualty. And then the clincher! New God kryptonite-time-bullet fired backwards from the future through the Mobius Chair with Barry Allen chasing it and the Black Racer right on his goddamn tail! That's way more "oh !@#$" than last month. That's enough "oh !@#$" to keep me into this book indefinitely, and I can only imagine there is much more to come.

The intro was hilarious. Jones completely sold the overblown superhero counter-culture Morrison created in the Japanese nightclub scene. All the cosplayers with their subtle and not-so-subtle nods to existing heroes and then the original but completely insane costumes. It was fantastic, especially the Killing Joke jacket, and Most Excellent Superbat's helmet and jacket. Atomic Lantern looks nice and ridiculous, too. And I can only imagine what these kids' powers are, but I can't wait to see them in action when Shilo helps Sonny recover from whatever happened to him. Back in Forever People, he was one of the humans with the Anti-Life Equation, so maybe now that evil has won, it's weighing on him. Whatever the case, it'll be interesting watching them replace the League.

And man, what an incredibly crazy way to take out the Justice League! I was digging the way the Alpha Lanterns were part cosmic FBI (loved how Kraken was putting down Hal and his "crimefighting club"), part Green Lantern internal affairs, but then having them corrupted by Anti-Life and taking down John and arresting Hal was slick. It's an uncomplicated way to remove two of the biggest guns from the coming conflict, and it enforces the new Alpha Lanterns' bizarre sense of justice. And then Kraken's corruption and abduction of Batman was harsh. He didn't stand a chance with Superman putting in face-time as Clark Kent, who wasn't any safer than anybody else. Now we're aware of how powerful Libra is, that he can get to Clark directly, in a way Luthor couldn't. Though I still doubt that this will get him to join Libra's gang. I wonder what they're going to do to get to Wonder Woman next month, but I like their plan for taking out the Flashes. Pit 'em against the fastest incarnation of death in the universe.

Big movement aside, the subplots all progressed nicely here, too. Uotan's mortality is brought up again, this time with some better insight to what happened to him than the confusing finish last month. J'onn's funeral on Mars, wrapping up the other part of last month's ending (and I think Paul might be right, J'onn might become Mars after this). And Turpin's descent into madness as the world falls down around him. The Hatter scene was just brutal, and the scene in Blüdhaven was even crazier. It seems that Darkseid has taken Turpin's body after his became too weak. We see his ears gushing blood as Godfrey reveals the truth to him. That's pretty insane, putting the great antagonist of the book inside the body of the human protagonist out to stop him. I'm sure that dynamic is going to explode in just a couple issues. Also, we see Kamandi in a cell in the Evil Factory, and considering his appearance last month, I think I have a pretty good idea of where that subplot is going.

It looks like Metron fired a bullet of his own through time, into the future.

[Buried Alien]

because it;s the black racer. you know...the black racer?

He probably needs more of an explanation than that.

The Black Racer is one of the Fourth World characters created by Jack Kirby during the late 1960s/early 1970s, just like Darkseid and Orion were. In the Fourth World pantheon, the Black Racer was an avatar of impending death. He was also something of a speedster among the New Gods (but surprisingly, not faster than Earth's Flashes).

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[ojjo]

One question though sorry if this was answered, the image showing Libra walk that guy back into the building and saying "now about what you owe me...(or something similar) what exactly does he "owe" him? Libra is supposed to bring balance so does that mean with J'Ohn dead that guy is going to die as well or am I totally off base.

Libra is like the antichrist of darkside of some sort. He makes the dreams of the villans who follow him come true, bun not without a price. Somehow i think human flame is going to regret his decision to follow libra. Pherhaps Libra is collecting bodies for the new gods since Boss Darkseid said the human bodies dissolved too fast in FC1...

[botch]

Time magazine and millions of teenagers and people who only read the book after seeing the movie. Not by very many others. Popular doesn't mean greatest. A poll on the BBC or amazon doesn't cement it. It's a great book, but calling it the greatest one ever is super extreme.

that's just assumption. many magazines and surveys were done in 2000 before the movies came out.

[botch]

compare it to the art in wanted or marvel boy. also point out similar work that supposedly works this great if you want us to explain how spectacular and nuanced the work in final crisis was. even the preview art showcased this. you're out of your element, donny.

good lord man. are you really saying the art was spectacular and nuanced? what? to a pair of sane rational eyes put final crisis 2 and then any immortal iron fist or daredevil title and tell them which looks nicer.

[botch]

Yeah, take that, Donny.

am i supposed to be donny?

[TimothyCallahan]

Just to clarify: Some readers seem confused about the destination of the bullet in the final panel. But since the bullet entered through that portal and travelled back through time, isn't it possible that the bullet at the end is the one that killed Orion in the past? That's the implication, anyway, whether or not it turns out to be true.

[Jack Zodiac]

good lord man. are you really saying the art was spectacular and nuanced? what? to a pair of sane rational eyes put final crisis 2 and then any immortal iron fist or daredevil title and tell them which looks nicer.

Final Crisis. Sorry, I love Lark and Gaudiano and Aja as much as anyone, but their art works in a completely different way than Jones'. It's like comparing David Mack to J.H. Williams III. Great art, but completely and totally different. Just like Yu. Yu's art is great, but I just don't think it's that great for superhero comics (though I will admit that he's definitely stepped up with Secret Invasion compared to his New Avengers). Jones' art is perfect for superheroes, in a way that artists like Lark and Gaudiano and Aja just aren't. They work for their characters, for gritty, urban Daredevil and chop-sockey Iron Fist, but they just wouldn't work for characters like Green Lantern and Superman and Batman and The Flash.

[Kevinroc]

Final Crisis. Sorry, I love Lark and Gaudiano and Aja as much as anyone, but their art works in a completely different way than Jones'. It's like comparing David Mack to J.H. Williams III. Great art, but completely and totally different. Just like Yu. Yu's art is great, but I just don't think it's that great for superhero comics (though I will admit that he's definitely stepped up with Secret Invasion compared to his New Avengers). Jones' art is perfect for superheroes, in a way that artists like Lark and Gaudiano and Aja just aren't. They work for their characters, for gritty, urban Daredevil and chop-sockey Iron Fist, but they just wouldn't work for characters like Green Lantern and Superman and Batman and The Flash.

Shame Jones can't finish the entire mini by himself (although Pacheco is one of the best artists out there).

[dotdotdot]

good lord man. are you really saying the art was spectacular and nuanced? what? to a pair of sane rational eyes put final crisis 2 and then any immortal iron fist or daredevil title and tell them which looks nicer.

as great as aja is, he is nowhere near jones. and his work in iron fist got really sloppy and muddy in the last few issues. this issue started with a guy wearing a killing joke jacket, was filled with incredible details (check out everything going on in the one panel where the league is checking on orion's corpse), a jim lee superman photo on jimmy's desk, i could go on and on. supervillan parking lot. it was chock full of glorious eye-candy. try to put together some sort of argument if you're going to keep repeating this complete bull.

[Jack Zodiac]

Shame Jones can't finish the entire mini by himself (although Pacheco is one of the best artists out there).

He could, but it'd cause month-long delays. So, it'd be like Civil War. Instead, DC is putting a co-artist in midway, which I think is something they should've considered ahead of time, and given to somebody like Williams, who'd compliment Jones a whole lot more than Pacheco. Then, Jones could've gotten all of his covers and sketchbook redesigns done and still had enough lead-time to finish his parts of the book.

[dotdotdot]

am i supposed to be donny?

did you not get that reference, my bad

[dotdotdot]

Final Crisis. Sorry, I love Lark and Gaudiano and Aja as much as anyone, but their art works in a completely different way than Jones'. It's like comparing David Mack to J.H. Williams III. Great art, but completely and totally different. Just like Yu. Yu's art is great, but I just don't think it's that great for superhero comics (though I will admit that he's definitely stepped up with Secret Invasion compared to his New Avengers). Jones' art is perfect for superheroes, in a way that artists like Lark and Gaudiano and Aja just aren't. They work for their characters, for gritty, urban Daredevil and chop-sockey Iron Fist, but they just wouldn't work for characters like Green Lantern and Superman and Batman and The Flash.

see i dont agree here. i prefer less typically realistic and more highly stylized art for superheroes, but people like jones and reis have enough style going on to rise above the mark. lots of traditional fanboys only want proper anatomy and quote unquote realism that makes damned sure that every hero is a beefcake and every female is a swimsuit model. not that i'm pinning any of that on jones in any way.

[Jack Zodiac]

see i dont agree here.

I don't see where we're disagreeing. Jones isn't Hitch or Finch or Land. He doesn't go for photorealism. He goes for big, bold superheroics, perfectly apparent in his Japanese superclub scenes. Sure, folks like Aja and Yu are more stylized, but their styles don't lend well to four-color folk the way that people like Williams and Jones do.

[dotdotdot]

I don't see where we're disagreeing. Jones isn't Hitch or Finch or Land. He doesn't go for photorealism. He goes for big, bold superheroics, perfectly apparent in his Japanese superclub scenes. Sure, folks like Aja and Yu are more stylized, but their styles don't lend well to four-color folk the way that people like Williams and Jones do.

that's where i dont agree. i think those styles are just dandy for superheroes.

[Jack Zodiac]

Ah, then yes, we disagree, because I think those styles work for certain characters (I'd rather see someone like Lark on Daredevil than Reis or Van Sciver), but not for most superheroes.

[Will.S]

Final Crisis. Sorry, I love Lark and Gaudiano and Aja as much as anyone, but their art works in a completely different way than Jones'. It's like comparing David Mack to J.H. Williams III. Great art, but completely and totally different. Just like Yu. Yu's art is great, but I just don't think it's that great for superhero comics (though I will admit that he's definitely stepped up with Secret Invasion compared to his New Avengers). Jones' art is perfect for superheroes, in a way that artists like Lark and Gaudiano and Aja just aren't. They work for their characters, for gritty, urban Daredevil and chop-sockey Iron Fist, but they just wouldn't work for characters like Green Lantern and Superman and Batman and The Flash.
I think Aja would actually work very well for Batman, he's not too far off from Gaudiano.

as great as aja is, he is nowhere near jones. and his work in iron fist got really sloppy and muddy in the last few issues. this issue started with a guy wearing a killing joke jacket, was filled with incredible details (check out everything going on in the one panel where the league is checking on orion's corpse), a jim lee superman photo on jimmy's desk, i could go on and on. supervillan parking lot. it was chock full of glorious eye-candy. try to put together some sort of argument if you're going to keep repeating this complete bull.The Jim Lee Superman photo and stuff of that nature is usually filled in by the colorist so Sinclair would probably be the one who got the credit for that. I agree with the rest of what you said though, this book looked really good. Aja has a more natural and better depiction of action scenes but he works best when he works on a bi monthly schedule or on mini series but the same can be said for J.G. as well.

But really stylistically they couldn't be any more different so its a weird debate.

[Jack Zodiac]

I think Aja would actually work very well for Batman, he's not too far off from Gaudiano.

Actually, I take that one back. Batman's a little different. Here, he's out there in all his superhero glory, but in his own title he's a lot more brooding and down to Earth. Aja, Mack, Lark and Gaudiano, Yu, they'd work well on a gritty Batman book, but not something like Morrison's JLA Classified or Final Crisis.

[dotdotdot]

I think Aja would actually work very well for Batman, he's not too far off from Gaudiano.

The Jim Lee Superman photo and stuff of that nature is usually filled in by the colorist so Sinclair would probably be the one who got the credit for that. I agree with the rest of what you said though, this book looked really good. Aja has a more natural and better depiction of action scenes but he works best when he works on a bi monthly schedule or on mini series but the same can be said for J.G. as well.

But really stylistically they couldn't be any more different so its a weird debate.

oh i have no problem with giving sinclair his credit. but even in the preview, just look at all the care given to the panel where libra and the human flame walk back inside, shot from above at an angle just to get the right amount of that marquee in the shot......

[Bored at 3:00AM]

I liked it.

It's becoming a little more clear where Morrison is going with this and it looks like it really is gonna be a bad time for the good guys.

I guess the reason for Superman's trek across the Multiverse in Superman Beyond now makes sense. He's going to be looking for Lois, because the New Earth version looks like she's dead.

I like the Japanese super-heroes. Neat idea. Haven't read the early appearances of Sonny Sumo--where did he first appear? Kirby's Mister Miracle?

Kraken working for Darkseid doesn't seem that big a leap considering she was the GL of Apokolips. Things do not look so good for Hal or John....or Batman.

I can only imagine what nastiness Morrison has cooked up next.

[Jack Zodiac]

Sonny Sumo first showed up in Forever People. And I think it's less Kraken turning against the heroes and more her being taken over by Anti-Life. I think we're gonna see more heroes taken in a similar fashion in the next few issues.

[cdemink]

Hi, I posted this elsewhere, but I was really hoping someone could answer this for me. Forgive me if these questions are foolish, I'm just trying to get it all straight in my head...

1) Do we know HOW Darkseid got control of the Anti-Life Equation?

2) Would it be correct for me to assume that out of the characters we've seen only a few (the reverend, Turpin, Alpha Lantern) are actually PHYSICALLY possessed by the essence of the evil New Gods? And that the others working for them are merely mindless zombies controlled by Darkseid and crew via the Anti Life Equation?

And finally, if Libra really were working for Darkseid, what would be the purpose of Libra starting a religion and convincing the bad guys to join him? If Darkseid already has access to the Anti-Life Equation, why not just take them over and force them to do his bidding? Why have people choosing to worship you if you already control free will?

[Iron Syndicate]

Here's what I thought of the issue:

First off, it was better than the first one, so we're going up, and that's good.
I still won't call it a good issue, though. It still had its fair share of problems. The first of which being pacing. I felt that FC #2 was moving too fast and too slow simultaneously. I'll explain, overall, when you look at the issue as a whole, not much happens. The series is not as far off from where it first started as I'd like it to be and it moves a bit too slowly for my tastes. The individual scenes in the book, however, are confusing to me, and I had a hard time following some of them (in particular the Lantern scenes, both John and the Kraken/Granny scenes).
Secondly, I don't think FC is accessible to new readers. I'm talking fresh of the streets, "hello, I've heard about these comic book things and I'd like to try 'em" type of reader. I think DC misstepped here by not helping readers with their main-event. I only have a cursory knowledge of the New Gods and I couldn't follow along, I don't see how someone who knows nothing about them could.
Something irks me about the whole Lantern sequence. I don't know what exactly, but it seems the Evil Gods infiltrated the Lantern organization rather quickly - and how do the Guardians not find out about one of their Chief Officers' consciousness being possessed?

The issue was not without its strokes of Morrison-induced genius. The bullet being fired back through time was brilliant, truly brilliant. I love that concept and I love how Morrison plays with time, it's great to watch.

As for the art, it's hit or miss for me. The biggest problem I have is with Jones' Superman. He just seems off and funny-looking.

So, in conclusion, the issue was an improvement. Pacing was odd, and it was a little tough to follow at times. There's still some work to be done if the series is to be a stasfying read, but things are looking up and I'm optimistic.

[Jake1823]

The individual scenes in the book, however, are confusing to me, and I had a hard time following some of them (in particular the Lantern scenes, both John and the Kraken/Granny scenes).

What did you find confusing?

Secondly, I don't think FC is accessible to new readers. I'm talking fresh of the streets, "hello, I've heard about these comic book things and I'd like to try 'em" type of reader. I think DC misstepped here by not helping readers with their main-event. I only have a cursory knowledge of the New Gods and I couldn't follow along, I don't see how someone who knows nothing about them could.

I haven't read much on the New Gods, except Countdown, where I didn't learn much, and I followed along fine. I'll ask the same question, what couldn't you follow along with?

Something irks me about the whole Lantern sequence. I don't know what exactly, but it seems the Evil Gods infiltrated the Lantern organization rather quickly - and how do the Guardians not find out about one of their Chief Officers' consciousness being possessed?

It's kinda the same as the Guardians not knowing their so called "greatest" Lantern was possessed by a fear entity. I think there's precedent.

[cholizo]

New/Evil Gods?

Sonny Sumo?

Japanese superhero team?

Mister Miracle part III?

I find myself not caring about Final Crisis anymore. Bring on Blackest Night.

[Paul McEnery]

The series is not as far off from where it first started as I'd like it to be and it moves a bit too slowly for my tastes.

Orion dead. Batman captured. Superman's life destroyed. John Steward critical. Hal Jordan arrested. Turpin possessed by Darkseid. Alpha Lantern possessed by Granny Goodness. Flash returned.

No, you're right. Nothing much happened.


Secondly, I don't think FC is accessible to new readers.

Good. I don't want half my reading experience to be spoon-feeding me. If I'm lost about who a character is, I'm not too lazy to look it up on the internet.

[the4thpip]

Im glad that I am not the only one who thought that.

It would not make sense as Kalibak is Darkseid's son, not Orion's.

But then, isn't Darkseid already in Boss Dark Side? Or maybe the Boss is Desaad pretending to be his old boss?

[Jake1823]

It would not make sense as Kalibak is Darkseid's son, not Orion's.

But then, isn't Darkseid already in Boss Dark Side? Or maybe the Boss is Desaad pretending to be his old boss?

Nope, his body was deteriorating, as evidenced by his coughing and sweating in issue 1. And then he says that he can use Turpin in issue 1.

Also, he says that "bodies...wear out hard in here." That's in issue 1, once again.

[the4thpip]

Also - kudos to seeing Mokkari and Simyan once again. (Darkseid's monster makers - and clones of the originals, who died back when the Fourth World was first introduced in JIMMY OLSEN). And if I'm seeing things right, is Morrison having them create the animal people that populate the ol' KAMANDI comics? Ingenious.



Which would be another continuity contradiction to Countdown, where the virus created the anthropomorphic animals.


.........my only complaint is that the nonsense of COUNTDOWN and DOTNG is making reading FINAL CRISIS a bit too headachy for me at times. I still have faith, but it's a little weird trying to make sense of it all, since COUNTDOWN and DOTNG just got it all so wrong...

Yup.

[the4thpip]

If you want to compare it Lord of the Rings, I'd ask - was everything revealed in the first chapter of that book? IIRC it was all about a birthday party. Heaven help Tolkien if he'd serialised it to comic book fans. Looks to me like the first three issues of FC will take us up to the Council of Elron, where everybody gets clued in to what's going on. Up to then it's just vague hints and ominous signs of just how high the stakes are.

But "The Hobbit" was a better book than Countdown.

[the4thpip]

Time magazine and millions of teenagers and people who only read the book after seeing the movie. Not by very many others. Popular doesn't mean greatest. A poll on the BBC or amazon doesn't cement it. It's a great book, but calling it the greatest one ever is super extreme.

Here is a fun comparison of two lists, one by people who actually have read a lot (book critics) and then a readers' choice next to it:
http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bestnovels.html

Critics:

1 ULYSSES by James Joyce
2 THE GREAT GATSBY by F. Scott Fitzgerald
3A PORTRAIT OF THE ARTIST AS A YOUNG MAN by James Joyce
4LOLITA by Vladimir Nabokov
5 BRAVE NEW WORLD by Aldous Huxley
6 THE SOUND AND THE FURY by William Faulkner
7 CATCH-22
8 DARKNESS AT NOON by Arthur Koestler
9 SONS AND LOVERS by D.H. Lawrence
10 THE GRAPES OF WRATH by John Steinbeck

Readers (by which I mean organized Internet mobs):

1 ATLAS SHRUGGED by Ayn Rand
2 THE FOUNTAINHEAD by Ayn Rand
3 BATTLEFIELD EARTH by L. Ron Hubbard
4THE LORD OF THE RINGS by J.R.R. Tolkien
5 TO KILL A MOCKINGBIRD by Harper Lee
6 1984 by George Orwell
7 ANTHEM by Ayn Rand
8 WE THE LIVING by Ayn Rand
9 MISSION EARTH by L. Ron Hubbard
10 FEAR by L. Ron Hubbard

Any questions?

[the4thpip]

New/Evil Gods?

Sonny Sumo?

Japanese superhero team?

Mister Miracle part III?

I find myself not caring about Final Crisis anymore. Bring on Blackest Night.

See, my main problem with the book is similar to DoNG. One is promised a huge, Universe-shaking cosmic book, but then it just feels like a murder mystery with tights.
The result, to me, is a book that is trying to look smarter than it actually is.

[Xero]

why would i feel humiliation. if people think this art is good then they need to read more comics.

If you personally do not like the art, then you might want to rewrite that post so that it says so. Don't assume that you speak for anyone else.

[botch]

Here is a fun comparison of two lists, one by people who actually have read a lot (book critics) and then a readers' choice next to it:
http://www.randomhouse.com/modernlibrary/100bestnovels.html

Critics:



Readers (by which I mean organized Internet mobs):



Any questions?

any poll which puts battlefield earth above lord of the rings should not be taken seriously, neither should a guy who is 37 and equates immortal iron fist to reign of superman should not be taken seriously either.

[botch]

Final Crisis. Sorry, I love Lark and Gaudiano and Aja as much as anyone, but their art works in a completely different way than Jones'. It's like comparing David Mack to J.H. Williams III. Great art, but completely and totally different. Just like Yu. Yu's art is great, but I just don't think it's that great for superhero comics (though I will admit that he's definitely stepped up with Secret Invasion compared to his New Avengers). Jones' art is perfect for superheroes, in a way that artists like Lark and Gaudiano and Aja just aren't. They work for their characters, for gritty, urban Daredevil and chop-sockey Iron Fist, but they just wouldn't work for characters like Green Lantern and Superman and Batman and The Flash.

yeah but you're a comic book fanboy who thinks scott kollins is a better artist than bryan hitch. art is art, what looks nice to people is what matters. this issue just looked like generic superhero stuff, but you show something like Ultimates to a mainstream non comic fan and they are blown away. total different mentallities. Aja's stuff looks nicer than this issue. i say this issue because jones has done far better work before.

[botch]

as great as aja is, he is nowhere near jones. and his work in iron fist got really sloppy and muddy in the last few issues. this issue started with a guy wearing a killing joke jacket, was filled with incredible details (check out everything going on in the one panel where the league is checking on orion's corpse), a jim lee superman photo on jimmy's desk, i could go on and on. supervillan parking lot. it was chock full of glorious eye-candy. try to put together some sort of argument if you're going to keep repeating this complete bull.

thats the different colourist son. i do have an argument, the art looks generic, if you don't believe so then what can i do for you. Aja's is better and if you show people both comics they would also say Aja's art is better. This could have been done by anyone. And the superman jim lee pic, are you serious? that makes it great art, you mean cutting and pasting in photoshop makes you giddy? and the supervillain parking lot? what? look at the lines, it looks like random art.

[botch]

but their styles don't lend well to four-color folk the way that people like Williams and Jones do.

that's pretty weird considering they are both very different artists. jones is more a comic book penciller whilst williams is an artist.

[botch]

oh i have no problem with giving sinclair his credit. but even in the preview, just look at all the care given to the panel where libra and the human flame walk back inside, shot from above at an angle just to get the right amount of that marquee in the shot......

ohh i get it, see my beef is with the details, not the actual positioning etc. i guess i wouldn't mind jones on layouts/breakdowns, whilst a better artist on finishes.

[David O Burcham]

People just need to step up their reading comprehension skills.

Does that include the 8, 9, and 10 year-olds who SHOULD be able to enjoy a Universe-altering event as much as the adult readers?

[David O Burcham]

The problem with comic fans is that a lot of them, are essentially sheep in opinions.


I happen to think the REAL sheep are the elitist comic-book snobs who feel that the only super-hero comic books youngsters are allowed to read MUST come from the Jonni DC and Marvel Adventures lines.

To clarify... I have really enjoyed Final Crisis so far. But I'm 38.

My nephews (10 and 12, and Honor Students to boot) have farted on both issues.

[xnef1025]

Does that include the 8, 9, and 10 year-olds who SHOULD be able to enjoy a Universe-altering event as much as the adult readers?
Yes. The world is going to crap faster than ever because those kids are busy playing the Pokemon or watching the boob tube instead of reading. Kids who can't read grow up to be adults who can't read, and if mommy and daddy have enough money and/or power, those incompetent adults can wind up in some pretty inconvenient positions of power for the rest of us. For an example, see the last 8 years of the US executive branch.

Anyway, rant over, back on topic... I didn't even think of the anti-life equation being used to possess people. What other types of things has the equation been known to do?

Edit to add: This is not to say that dislike of FC necessarily indicates low reading comprehension skills. It's just possible that someone could actually have... <gasp!> their own feelings and opinions! Even children? Who'da thunk it?

[Iron Syndicate]

What did you find confusing?

With the John Stewart attack, I didn't immediatly pick up that he was attacked by the face-tentacly lantern. It just happens so suddenly, the other lantern flies off somewhere then swings back and impales John. Something about the dialogue threw me off as well (don't have the book with me, so I don't remember exactly).

With the Alpha Lantern, I don't understand if ALL the Alpha Lanterns are possessed (they were all there) or just Kraken and the other are under the effects of the Anti-Life or what.


I haven't read much on the New Gods, except Countdown, where I didn't learn much, and I followed along fine. I'll ask the same question, what couldn't you follow along with?

I just can't follow when someone is a New God or not, I don't know their names so I can't really figure out who's possessed and who's just an Anti-Life zombie.

It's kinda the same as the Guardians not knowing their so called "greatest" Lantern was possessed by a fear entity. I think there's precedent.

If I recall correctly, the Lanterns knew Parallax was imprisoned in the Central Battery, and just chose to ignore it. Once Hal took on the name Parallax, I think it was kind of a dead giveaway, though by then it was too late to do anything about it. It's been established that the Guardians always knew the source for the Yellow Impurity, but just never told anyone about it.

Look, I'll admit, I'm a much bigger Marvel reader than I am a DC one. It's a matter of personal preference. I'm not gonna slam anything just because I didn't like it. I found it hard to follow at times, mostly due to awkward pacing. I love Grant Morrison's writing, though my one claim about is that it's always confusing at first (I'd like to find one person who can honestly tell me he got Invisbiles the first time around), Final Crisis is no different.

[the4thpip]

any poll which puts battlefield earth above lord of the rings should not be taken seriously, neither should a guy who is 37 and equates immortal iron fist to reign of superman should not be taken seriously either.
Yes, yes I should actually. Because I am 37 but have the skin of a much younger man.


And I don't mean pimples!


And my bet is that most lists that you will find that include Lord of the Rings as one of the greatest novels ever will also include crap fests by Ayn Rand and L.Ron. The size of the following says very little about the relative quality of the book.

[SpaceBooger]

Nope, his body was deteriorating, as evidenced by his coughing and sweating in issue 1. And then he says that he can use Turpin in issue 1.

Also, he says that "bodies...wear out hard in here." That's in issue 1, once again.

This was something that I missed in the first one... it makes sense now that we have discussed it...
This series will have definite re-read value when all is said and done.

[Forseti]

And finally, if Libra really were working for Darkseid, what would be the purpose of Libra starting a religion and convincing the bad guys to join him? If Darkseid already has access to the Anti-Life Equation, why not just take them over and force them to do his bidding? Why have people choosing to worship you if you already control free will?
Maybe Libra is working with the corrupt Monitor instead of Darkseid. I recall two Monitors in #1 talking about undefined lifeforms hiding among the worlds in the orrery. Maybe that's what Libra turned into when he discorporated and became one with the universe in his original appearance.

Who knows... maybe the Monitor vs. Darkseid chess game from Countdown is still going on. :rolleyes:

[SpaceBooger]

Here's what I thought of the issue:

I don't know what exactly, but it seems the Evil Gods infiltrated the Lantern organization rather quickly - and how do the Guardians not find out about one of their Chief Officers' consciousness being possessed?

The lanterns are in a sad state right not with many different (not just green) lanterns about to go to war, including a couple rouge Guardians... so it is easy to see how a New God could have infiltrated the corps.

[Kid Kyoto]

Don't know what the deal is with the Alpha Lanterns, but it was embarrassing the way Hal Jordan just let his "boss" push him around so easily. Huh???? Is that the new Jordan status quo - wimp?



Nah, he's just bottling it all up, letting it build into a rage until it finally explodes and he slaughters the entire GLC.

For the third time.

[SpaceBooger]

Maybe Libra is working with the corrupt Monitor instead of Darkseid. I recall two Monitors in #1 talking about undefined lifeforms hiding among the worlds in the orrery. Maybe that's what Libra turned into when he discorporated and became one with the universe in his original appearance.

Who knows... maybe the Monitor vs. Darkseid chess game from Countdown is still going on. :rolleyes:

I was thinking that too... either a monitor or Desad... but those burnt looking eyelids behind the Libra mask have to be some kind of clue.

[the4thpip]

I was thinking that too... either a monitor or Desad... but those burnt looking eyelids behind the Libra mask have to be some kind of clue.

Libra is really Austrian Formula 1 legend Niki Lauda??

http://www.thomas-hicker.at/cockpit/dbpics/2007-07-18_Niki_Lauda_4.jpg

[Sean Walsh]

And I think it's less Kraken turning against the heroes and more her being taken over by Anti-Life. I think we're gonna see more heroes taken in a similar fashion in the next few issues.

Y'know, Kraken is something of an enigma. She just suddenly showed up during SINESTRO CORPS WAR fighting alongside Raker (the GL of Apokalips) and id'ing herself as his fellow GL partner.

So either she's been taken over by the returning/evolving New Gods (a Female Fury, I'd say).........or she was a Darkseid plant/Female Fury all along....

[Tom]

Y'know, all the complaints about how this isn't accessible to new readers or written with children in mind strike me as fairly ridiculous. Big event comics like this are NEVER accessible to new readers, nor are they written for younger readers. That's just the way it is. You might as well complain that it doesn't cure cancer.

[Flamebird]

Y'know, all the complaints about how this isn't accessible to new readers or written with children in mind strike me as fairly ridiculous. Big event comics like this are NEVER accessible to new readers, nor are they written for younger readers. That's just the way it is. You might as well complain that it doesn't cure cancer.


It doesn't? I want my money back! :wink:

[chriskenny]

Time magazine and millions of teenagers and people who only read the book after seeing the movie. Not by very many others. Popular doesn't mean greatest. A poll on the BBC or amazon doesn't cement it. It's a great book, but calling it the greatest one ever is super extreme.

I don't usually get into these discussions, but I have a hard time ever believing that LOTR is a better novel than Moby Dick or Anna Karenina. Agreed that popular opinion of an American public that is chronically illiterate and doesn't regard reading as a worthwhile activity hardly means anything.

[Infra-Man]

Time Magazine, millions of people surveyed, various newspapers. arent you the guy who said the brilliant quote in my sig. seriously this is another great quote by you. Lord of the Rings is considered the greatest novel ever written.

But really, how many of those people surveyed read books regularly, let alone actually read the book in question?

LOTR is a keen read, yeah, but it's not close to being the greatest novel ever written. It's not even close to being the greatest novel of the 20th century. Now, if we're talking greatest fantasy novels ever written, LOTR is definitely top of the pop or at least on the short list for the top slot.

[Jack Zodiac]

yeah but you're a comic book fanboy who thinks scott kollins is a better artist than bryan hitch. art is art, what looks nice to people is what matters. this issue just looked like generic superhero stuff, but you show something like Ultimates to a mainstream non comic fan and they are blown away. total different mentallities. Aja's stuff looks nicer than this issue. i say this issue because jones has done far better work before.

Hey, kid. Quit being so angry about liking crappy comic books. Ball that nerd rage up into a stomach ulcer or something.

that's pretty weird considering they are both very different artists. jones is more a comic book penciller whilst williams is an artist.

Sorry, champ, but that's wrong. Read Chase, or Promethea, or Desolation Jones. Williams is amazing, but he's just a comic book penciler, just like Jones. He doesn't do hand painted comic art and he doesn't ink and color his own pencils (though he does ink sometimes). They're different artists in that Williams is more versatile, but no, Williams is no more an artist than Jones, and Jones is no more a comic book penciler than Williams.

But that was cute, trying to make it look like you knew what you were talking about. For a second, I forgot you ate !@#$ and smiled about it. :wink:

[Sean Walsh]

You might as well complain that it doesn't cure cancer.

My copy did.

[Jack Zodiac]

I don't usually get into these discussions, but I have a hard time ever believing that LOTR is a better novel than Moby Dick or Anna Karenina. Agreed that popular opinion of an American public that is chronically illiterate and doesn't regard reading as a worthwhile activity hardly means anything.

You forget, though, we're all comic nerds. We're supposed to like whatever piece of !@#$ book is number one, no matter how much of a piece of !@#$ it is. Now where's my Battlefield Earth!?

[Karl O'Neill]

holy crap Final crisis has lifted off, grant morrison is a bloody legend, Sonny somo, love every panel of these guys.

I am not literally writing annotations for all the stuff going on in these pages, jg jones delivered IMHO.

10 out of 10.

[Lorendiac]

If you want to compare it Lord of the Rings, I'd ask - was everything revealed in the first chapter of that book? IIRC it was all about a birthday party. Heaven help Tolkien if he'd serialised it to comic book fans. Looks to me like the first three issues of FC will take us up to the Council of Elron, where everybody gets clued in to what's going on. Up to then it's just vague hints and ominous signs of just how high the stakes are.

FC #3 will only get us as far as the Council in Rivendell? But at that rate -- by the time we finish FC #7, we'll still only be up to around the end of "The Fellowship of the Ring" or the beginning of "The Two Towers" -- Gandalf (J'onn) will still be "Presumed Dead," Saruman (Libra) will still be sitting pretty with his own loyal army of Orcs (the Society), Sauron (Darkseid) will still look like he's the most powerful person in the world and very likely to go the distance by conquering anything he doesn't already control, and all of his Nazgul (Female Furies and other "name" characters from Apokolips) will still be in perfect health . . .

Speaking of which, who are the equivalents of Frodo and Sam? The harmless-looking characters who need to go the distance and Miraculously Defeat The Evil Overlord By Doing The Right Thing With The Magic Item (while all the clashes of armies in the distance prove to be largely irrelevant to the final outcome of the war)? For that matter, who's the Gollum equivalent who can't make up his mind which side he's on?

[Forseti]

Speaking of which, who are the equivalents of Frodo and Sam? The harmless-looking characters who need to go the distance and Miraculously Defeat The Evil Overlord By Doing The Right Thing With The Magic Item (while all the clashes of armies in the distance prove to be largely irrelevant to the final outcome of the war)?
Anthro and Kamandi?

For that matter, who's the Gollum equivalent who can't make up his mind which side he's on?
Uotan, but I'd call him Gollum on account of being a pathetic fallen figure instead of your fence-sitting reason. :cool:

[Elitehaxxor]

I think the direct tie ins to this series are going to play key roles story progression and fill in, Superman Beyond, Rogues Revenge, Rage of the Red Lantern, etc...



Question: When Turpin is down in the factory of evil and Reverend Good says to him "it's wrong to pity the weak. Mr Simyan and Mr Mokkari will back me up on that..." the next page shows a big tiger/man laying on a table being operated on.

Who are Mr Simyan and Mr Mokkari? And where did they come from? I tried to look this up but couldn't find them in wikipedia (are they those two guys doing the operating on the tiger/man with Kraken?)

[misterbonesy]

Enough with the LOTR comparisons! LOTR is not the greatest book ever written, and FINAL CRISIS is not the best comic ever written.

[mdg1]

Who are Mr Simyan and Mr Mokkari? And where did they come from? I tried to look this up but couldn't find them in wikipedia (are they those two guys doing the operating on the tiger/man with Kraken?)

Yep, they are old Darkseid minions who showed up in SUPERMAN'S PAL, JIMMY OLSEN. All you really need to know is that their "Evil Factory" makes monsters.

[Xero]

Who are Mr Simyan and Mr Mokkari? And where did they come from? I tried to look this up but couldn't find them in wikipedia (are they those two guys doing the operating on the tiger/man with Kraken?)

Those two dudes operated the Evil Factory, a twisted version of Project Cadmus. See the links below for more info.

http://members.tripod.com/fastbak/mands.htm
http://fourthworldfridays.blogspot.com/2007/08/supermans-pal-jimmy-olsen-136-evil.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Cadmus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_New_Gods

[Lorendiac]

Enough with the LOTR comparisons! LOTR is not the greatest book ever written, and FINAL CRISIS is not the best comic ever written.

I'm not claiming either of those things is "the very best" in its respective medium -- although who knows? FC might improve so much in its next five issues that I'd be forced to reconsider! (I'm not betting that way, though.)

But I'm afraid the ongoing comparisons between LOTR and FC are inevitable. Why? Because Grant Morrison started it himself by modestly saying, sometime last year, that he expects FC to be "The Lord of the Rings of the DCU."

If he is bound and determined to make sure we know we are supposed to see parallels between the two epics, then he can hardly expect us to refrain from drawing endless comparisons between the two, can he? :rolleyes:

As a matter of fact: A while back I remember toying with the idea of starting a thread, perhaps leading to a poll, asking people to explain what, if anything, they thought Morrison probably meant when he equated FC with LOTR. I didn't do so at the time -- but as long as the subject has arisen again, does anyone want to tell me, right now, what you think Morrison meant by that "LOTR" comparison?

[Sean Walsh]

Yep, they are old Darkseid minions who showed up in SUPERMAN'S PAL, JIMMY OLSEN. All you really need to know is that their "Evil Factory" makes monsters.

And also, they're clones - which is why while all the other Apokaliptians are using human hosts, Mokkari and Simyan are able to retain their original look.

[brundlefly]

Are the newer younger readers just dumber than us older readers, or is it the fact that many of the younger readers have a shallower literary and cultural well of reference to draw from?

"Yes" to both. :biggrin:

I dug the hell out of FC #2. Glad Hatter seems to have survived the toilet-seat beating, since the early spoilers were that he was "beaten to death" by Turpin. I'm quite curious as to how Batman's ordeal here ties into RIP. And I like that Black Racer redesign, too.


Now we're aware of how powerful Libra is, that he can get to Clark directly, in a way Luthor couldn't.

I found that part pretty interesting, since A) it indicates Libra obviously knows that Clark is Superman and B) agree that it was done "in a way Luthor couldn't," since even if Lex had that same 'Clark = Supes' knowledge, he's long held a torch for Lois and considered her "hands-off," not harming her even when her investigative articles in the Planet were detrimental to him. Nice touch by Morrison, if it was intentional. I'm curious as to whether Lex will be pleased (since it hurt Superman) or furious (by hurting Lois).

[Binker]

By Nathaniel Ruff (also known as Binker, Binker2 and Nate on many forums)

FINAL CRISIS #2

Written by Grant Morrison
Art and Covers by J.G. Jones
Edited by Eddie Berganza

PLOT:
Meet Japan's number one pop culture heroes, the Super Young Team and their languid leader, Most Excellent Superbat! Join legendary wrestler Sonny Sumo and super escape artist Mister Miracle as they team to face the offspring of the Anti-Life Equation! See Earth's superheroes mourn one of their oldest allies! Witness costumed criminals sinking to new depths of cowardice and depravity as Libra takes things too far! Uncover the doomsday secrets of the poisoned city of Blüdhaven! Learn the shocking identity of the prime suspect in the murder of a god! And read on if you dare as Batman becomes the first of Earth's champions to face the Fallen of Apokolips. All this and a spectacular return from the dead...

REVIEW:
Final Crisis started its series pretty much like the first issues to other events like "Infinite Crisis" and "Civil War". We're introduced to the cast, the many situations, and like other events, a death of a major character: Martian Manhunter. Even if people said it wasn't a bigger start, or it was second best, I must say the first issue did its job. Grant will let loose as the issue progress, as seen in his other event; "Batman R.I.P.". He doesn't let us down, nor would he. With that in mind, let's see what issue #2 has for us!

I don't care what anyone else might say, this issue was cool. While it might not have been the same feeling I got from the second issue of Morrison's other event, "Batman R.I.P.", it was damn close! We get new characters, a lot more interesting stuff, and suspense at what happens to our guys. And yes, Silver Age Flash fans will rejoice; it was not a gag nor was it a simple maybe or maybe not: Barry Allen is back! We are knew it was going back to DCU Zero with the narration and the final page with the lightning bolt in front of a red night sky that it was Barry and he was going to return. But all of us know that there might've been something else to it, and while many could come up with ideas just by Barry's return scene as it followed other shocking scenes, part of me wants to say that "it's legit". And until I'm proven wrong (doesn't look at it), I'm staying with that.

As promised, we're introduced to Japan's Super Young Team. We were partly introduced to the designs and concepts back in the "Final Crisis Sketchbook", but it is here that we're fully introduced to what they're like. I may be wrong, but it felt original to me, and again, I could be wrong. The concept that fans, who wear outfits looking like superheroes, actually ARE superheroes, that didn't feel like it was old. If it has been done before, then Morrison just made it retro by taking that old idea and spinning it around so it could be new to people's eyes (or just mine). But to my mind's eye, it was cool, it was funny ("You must be super cool to proceed! You're life depends on it!"), and all of these characters are so interesting that I want to learn more about them. Maybe a series? Well, we have to see where they are at the end of this, but that is still an idea, y'know?

And now we get to the rest of those shocking moments. Green Lantern fans will know who Kraken is, as she is part of the Alpha Lanterns, recently introduced by Geoff Johns. I have to say, but this is my first time reading about her. I figured she was a brand new character until I remembered where she came from. But anyway, even with the Alpha Lanterns, things aren't even simple. In fact, they're more difficult. It looks like Kraken either started, is actually is, working for Darkseid. So it could mean that either she switched sides, always has been a baddie behind the scenes, or she wasn't Kraken at all. But either way, she arrests and frames Hal Jordan for the murder of Orion and the attempted killing of John Stewart, and captures Batman (placed into what he is on from the story cover to this issue) so he can become "Granny's plaything". And not only that, thanks to Clayface, the Daily Planet's main offices explode and Superman is too late to save Lois. Things are literally kicking up.

Overall, if I here someone say that this was bad or worse or what not, I will be pissed. Final Crisis #2 has literally kicking things up, and it was damn close to how I felt from the second part of "Batman R.I.P.". As I said; Morrison has given us new characters, new concepts, alot of shocking moments with more to come. Barry Allen is back, Batman is in hell, Hal is arrested, and Superman arrived too late. And not only that, other things were that Dan Turpin has arrived, and he knows nothing is right, to where Batman was captured as part of the Dark Side Club. And a character (name escapes me, but I believe he was in issue #1) was sentenced to New Earth thanks to a Multiverse machine (also seen in the Sketchbook). Who he is? He might be the Captain Marvel or Black Adam from the Earth where it looks like the Superman (and maybe in this case, Supergirl) from the Elseworld "Dark Side" series lives on. All this and more, we'll know soon enough.

RATING: Yay

Next issue: Superman's immobilized! Batman is missing! Wonder Woman faces the Evil Gods! Green Lantern's on trial! A warning awaits Frankenstein, The Question and the agents of S.H.A.D.E. in the shadows of the Dark Side Club. A fate for The Human Flame. The Anti-Life Equation is on the internet. Can the Fastest Men Alive outrun The Black Racer aka Death himself? And who are the Justifiers? A shadow is falling across Earth's super heroes!

[Infra-Man]

As a matter of fact: A while back I remember toying with the idea of starting a thread, perhaps leading to a poll, asking people to explain what, if anything, they thought Morrison probably meant when he equated FC with LOTR. I didn't do so at the time -- but as long as the subject has arisen again, does anyone want to tell me, right now, what you think Morrison meant by that "LOTR" comparison?

That the story would be comparable in terms of the epic scope, themes, spirit, and gravity of LOTR, but not necessarily embodying the characters or following the events of LOTR.

I remember a review for Babe that said "Babe is the Rocky of all pigs" or something like that. It doesn't mean that Babe is a porcine Rocky Balboa, but merely that the reviewer felt that Babe embodied the same spirit of another character. It's the same way someone could say that Shaolin Soccer is "the Citizen Kane of kung-fu soccer movies" and not mean that Shaolin Soccer is like Citizen Kane but with soccer and kung-fu.

[berk]

See, my main problem with the book is similar to DoNG. One is promised a huge, Universe-shaking cosmic book, but then it just feels like a murder mystery with tights.
The result, to me, is a book that is trying to look smarter than it actually is.I'm not too keen on the murder mystery myself, but I think in this case it's working to some extent. For one thing, we knew going in that this wasn't going to be the story of the epic final battle between Good and Evil, but rather the aftermath of that final battle, which has already taken place. With a title like Death of the New Gods, OTOH, one would expect that that story would be about that mind-blowingly cosmic final struggle.

Re The Hobbit: if they were so set on producing lead-in series to FC, too bad they weren't written by Morrison, or at least overseen by him.

Re the artwork: I think it's pretty good, myself, although it isn't a style I particularly go for. The main failure for me has been the inability to distinguish between the superheroes and the gods. But we haven't really seen many gods yet except in their mortal host forms. But for me, the ones we have seen, Metron and Orion, haven't conveyed the effect I think Morrison and Jones are going for, according to their interviews.

One wonders if the main reason for Jones's deadline problems might not be all those painted covers he's doing. Which makes one wonder if we really need painted covers. I'm a firm believer in having the interior artist do the covers, but I don't need painted covers and I defeinitely don't need variant covers, especially if they interfere with the series schedule.

[Stanlos]

JG is a good drawer! This book is so shiny, so pretty!

[Pixie_Solanas]

OK, just finished this last night, and anyone claiming that Secret Invasion is the better story needs their head examined. Lobotomy time.

This is great stuff, classic Morrison goodness.

I mean, seriously, Dr. Sivana getting into a SmartCar as they leave Libra's meeting? How funkin' META is that? I'd like to see Bendis come up with anything that subversively creative and gut-bustingly funny.

[Harding Prime]

The story is keeping me intrigued, and Morrison is one of my favorite writers, even if he does try to go over the average comics book readers head alot, he always delivers in the end.

One thing though, I will be happy when Carlos Pacheco takes over in FC #4, I loved his art in Camelot Falls.

[mdg1]

"I found that part pretty interesting, since A) it indicates Libra obviously knows that Clark is Superman

Does it? All he really needs to know is that Superman has people he cares about at the Planet.

[berk]

Forgot to say earlier that one thing I did like about Morrison's Orion this time round was that his last word was "fight", which echoes the very first thing we learn about Orion on the cover and splash page of Kirby's New Gods #1: "Orion fights for earth."

Elsewhere in that story, Orion says, when being attacked by Darkseid's Dog Cavalry, "It is suicidal to run from them. My one chance to live - is to attack!" which kind of sums him up right there: Orion's the God of War, sure, but he's also the spirit of resistance. So it make sense that, with him out of the picture, the superheroes of earth find themselves unable to fight effectively against the evil that's begun to descend upon them.

Which also gives us a nice way of interpreting all those dismal DC stories where Superman and Batman defeat Darkseid and his minions: they were able to do that because of the existence of Orion and the other Gods of New Genesis, even though those Gods were never seen or understood to have had a hand in most of those struggles.

[Shellhead]

The only serious problems with Final Crisis are the moronic way that Didio sabotaged it with Countdown and DoNG, and the fact that Grant Morrison isn't going to dumb this great story down for the masses. Final Crisis will probably end up critically-acclaimed but with only moderately good sales by event standards.

I really enjoyed this issue. The time-traveling bullet is awesome, and the opening scene in Japan was fun. Why can't more comic writers stretch themselves a little and write characters from outside the U.S. Whether intentional or not, DC should build upon the idea, because there is a huge potential market for DC comics in Japan.

The former Monitor as fast food worker/aspiring comic artist was an unexpected and enjoyable touch. He was drawing Adam-One, the leader of that WonderWorld team from the JLA Rock of Ages storyline.

[marvel_toys_zombie]

Ok, I just read the review for this issue. What is everyone smoking? Apparently the same thing as Grant Morrison. #2 was just as haphazard as #1, and didn't really get anywhere. In the review, it mentioned how the story didn't flow, and was disjointed, and said it was a good thing! No, that just makes for uneven storytelling, and confusion on the readers part. I keep reading how "evil has won" - but what did they win? Being stuck in human form, with Darkseid running a night club?

Of course, I know that internet bitching is not going to get me anywhere, so I'm letting them know the only way I can: not buying any more after #2. Sorry, you lost me, FC.

[brundlefly]

Does it? All he really needs to know is that Superman has people he cares about at the Planet.

Hmm, good point. I took Clayface/Jimmy's close proximity to Lois right before the explosion to mean that she specifically was targeted, with the rest of the Planet staff just being added "bonuses."

[Lorendiac]

As a matter of fact: A while back I remember toying with the idea of starting a thread, perhaps leading to a poll, asking people to explain what, if anything, they thought Morrison probably meant when he equated FC with LOTR. I didn't do so at the time -- but as long as the subject has arisen again, does anyone want to tell me, right now, what you think Morrison meant by that "LOTR" comparison?

That the story would be comparable in terms of the epic scope, themes, spirit, and gravity of LOTR, but not necessarily embodying the characters or following the events of LOTR.

I remember a review for Babe that said "Babe is the Rocky of all pigs" or something like that. It doesn't mean that Babe is a porcine Rocky Balboa, but merely that the reviewer felt that Babe embodied the same spirit of another character. It's the same way someone could say that Shaolin Soccer is "the Citizen Kane of kung-fu soccer movies" and not mean that Shaolin Soccer is like Citizen Kane but with soccer and kung-fu.

Shortly after I posted the message you quoted, I decided, "Hey, we've got an entire forum devoted to FC and nothing else, I bet I can get away with starting a new thread on the topic of what, if anything, the FC/LOTR parallels will be!" So I did. (After all, that question is pretty different from the topic of this thread, which is supposedly focused on the strengths and weaknesses of the second issue of the mini.)

Then I came back to see if anyone had already responded, in here, to that subject. You had. In case there was any doubt, let me clarify something -- when I responded to someone else's post about FC/LOTR parallels, I was amusing myself by speaking very tongue-in-cheek as I referred to "Gandalf (J'onn), Libra (Saruman), Darkseid (Sauron), and so forth." I don't really expect FC to recycle the main plot of LOTR from start to finish (although I've been wrong before!). :evilsmile:

[Forseti]

but those burnt looking eyelids behind the Libra mask have to be some kind of clue.
Did he have those in #1? Because he has pretty normal looking eyelids in #2. I don't have the first issue at hand to check, and won't until the weekend.

[Paul McEnery]

Re The Hobbit: if they were so set on producing lead-in series to FC, too bad they weren't written by Morrison, or at least overseen by him.

Batman is The Hobbit.

who's the Gollum equivalent who can't make up his mind which side he's on?

Perhaps the clue is in the question.