Final Crisis #2 *Spoilers*

[IvCNuB4]

It is the time-travelling bullet. Flip back to the page where John finds it buried in the concrete. It's the same object ...

[Jack Zodiac]

On the last page, with Barry Allen running from Black Racer...what do you guys think the oval object with the planet/spore-thing in it is?

It's radion. It's like New God kryptonite.

[Forseti]

If it's the back-in-time bullet, it should be moving backwards into the vortex, not out of it.

[Jack Zodiac]

The vortex is backwards. Whoever pulled the trigger in the future aimed the scope towards the past and fired it through the scope of the Mobius Chair. Barry is chasing the bullet, and the Black Racer is chasing him. Wally and Jay just caught them and the bullet as they were passing through our time.

[Pinnacle]

I read most of the responses and I have to say I'm surprised by the amount of people who don't like this. IMHO, it's the best thing DC has put out in a while and above average for Morrison. I don't know why people are confused so much. To me, Seven Soldiers was confusing (although I'm about to break out my issues and reread it). This has been severely dumbed down which is one of the things that has bothered me. The first issue seemed to go out of its way to let a new reader know who Orion was to the point that characters who have known him for a long time were giving lengthy expositions to let the reader in on the New Gods. This has been easy reading. I guess some people just want to be confused to complain. I mean they didn't realize that it was Nix Uotan who woke up on Earth when he looked exactly the same. I personally don't know all the details about the New Gods but when I see a character I don't know I realize they're either someone new or someone I don't know and if it's essential that I know something about an obscure character then I give the author a chance to explain it to me. If I didn't know who Orion was, I probably wouldn't pick this book up, and if I did anyway, I'd try to learn as much about him as I could which is so much easier today via the internet. I did not know who Sonny Sumo was so I just assumed he was a new character and figured Morrison would tell me what I need to know about him. Only once I went online did I learn he was a Kirby character. I'm not upset that Morrison used a character I didn't know. My only expectations are that he tells me any essential info that I need in a natural progress of the story. I also want him to be somewhat true to the original character for longtime fans. The same can be said of Kamandi, Anthro, and Simyan and Mokkari. From some of the responses that have been put in this thread I wonder if some people want any character that they don't know everything about included in comics. It made me think that they would complain about Watchmen because they didn't know anything about Rorsharch, or because he wasn't the Question. I'm reading Secret Invasion and enjoying it too, but since I'm not buying everything Marvel's publishing I feel like I'm not getting the full effect. Whereas with Final Crisis, I feel like I would be enjoying it even if I only knew the basics of the DCU and hadn't picked up a DC comic in a couple of years. It helps to have read Seven Soldiers but not essential. I figure the same can be said of the Kirby originals. As for Secret Invasion, if you're not reading New and Mighty Avengers, you're missing a large part of the story. And I figure I'm missing some things since I'm not reading some other titles like Ms. Marvel, The Initiative, etc.

I know everything doesn't flow exactly with Countdown and Death of the New Gods but Countdown made such a mess of that continuity that I don't care.

I will also admit that I was a bit confused as to what exactly happened when John Stewart was attacked but I figure that will be more clear by the end of the series. I also don't know how they were able to get off Earth for the funeral since the Guardians quarantined Earth. I'm just going to go with the Guardians granting those attending a special pass.

As for the art,. I love it. Jones is awesome.

I'm wondering what is up with Uotan. The need for a magic word and the characters that he is drawing having thunderbolts in their costumes (I know that some of you identified them but I don't know anything about them) has any connection to the Marvel family. Plus Dr. Manhattan was a great homage.

I love Libra and the fact that Luthor refuses to drink the Kool-Aid.:biggrin:

And Lois had better not be dead.:mad:

Overall, great work, Morrison and Jones.

[Bamf25]

Pinnacle it is not that I do not like this persay, or that I find it confusing, but at this point I am just not getting into it. It seems too scattered, relies very heavily on DC history and I do not find it that new reader friendly (I am more recent to the DC universe). Not confusing at all just I feel like I am getting the story but missing the inside jokes. The best thing I can relate it to is Later Buffy seasons. The writers would make a self contained season long plot that was more or less accessable each year, BUT they would put in so many winks, and nods to past continuity that I felt less knowledgable watcher would be missing alot. Yes a great reword to the loyal, but leaving the new watchers with a much shallower, superficial experience. Here I am the less knowing reader, I feel like I understand what is going on, but I am missing the deeper understanding that would make me truly enjoy the event.

[berk]

While waiting for the next issue of FC I've been reading Kirby's Fourth World stuff. And boy, is there a lot to talk about there, but maybe it's better to wait for a few more issues of FC to see if it's relevant. But anyway, regarding the Libra/Metron idea, there was a line in New Gods #7 "The Pact" (one of the greatest comics stories of all time, BTW), that might be suggestive, if there really is a connection there: Metron, on Apokolips to obtain some device he needs to build his Mobius Chair, says to Darkseid & Heggra, when taunted about his willingness to traffic with the enemy:

"I have no link with the Old Gods - or New. I am something - different. Something that was unforeseen. On New Genesis, or here."

Darkseid's reply: "You'll betray us all in time, Metron."

Could be a foreshadowing of what might be to come in FC, or could be totally irrelevant, but there it is.

[berk]

Reading the Forever People last night I wonder if the Sonny Sumo scene in FC#2 might have been paying tribute to his very first appearance in Forever People #5, where he also fights a giant robot called Sagutai that sets him on fire.

The other thing I'm getting is that there are all kinds of indications throughout the FW stuff that Kirby did intend these characters to be something more than the super-powered aliens most readers and DC creators have taken them to be. For example, when Superman decides he wants to visit the home of the Forever People they tell him that all it takes is a deep desire - and the Boom Tube appears; then when he decides he isn't ready, he finds himself transported back to earth. There's all kinds of little bits like that scattered throughout the FW series, particularly with Darkseid and Orion.

[Will.S]

While waiting for the next issue of FC I've been reading Kirby's Fourth World stuff. And boy, is there a lot to talk about there, but maybe it's better to wait for a few more issues of FC to see if it's relevant. But anyway, regarding the Libra/Metron idea, there was a line in New Gods #7 "The Pact" (one of the greatest comics stories of all time, BTW), that might be suggestive, if there really is a connection there: Metron, on Apokolips to obtain some device he needs to build his Mobius Chair, says to Darkseid & Heggra, when taunted about his willingness to traffic with the enemy:

"I have no link with the Old Gods - or New. I am something - different. Something that was unforeseen. On New Genesis, or here."

Darkseid's reply: "You'll betray us all in time, Metron."

Could be a foreshadowing of what might be to come in FC, or could be totally irrelevant, but there it is.


Reading the Forever People last night I wonder if the Sonny Sumo scene in FC#2 might have been paying tribute to his very first appearance in Forever People #5, where he also fights a giant robot called Sagutai that sets him on fire.

The other thing I'm getting is that there are all kinds of indications throughout the FW stuff that Kirby did intend these characters to be something more than the super-powered aliens most readers and DC creators have taken them to be. For example, when Superman decides he wants to visit the home of the Forever People they tell him that all it takes is a deep desire - and the Boom Tube appears; then when he decides he isn't ready, he finds himself transported back to earth. There's all kinds of little bits like that scattered throughout the FW series, particularly with Darkseid and Orion.
Interesting notes there, I can't wait to read the Fourth World Omnibuses when I have some money lying around.

[berk]

I have to agree with some previous posters that so far this story doesn't make much continuity sense. Superman has always been able to hold his own with the New Gods, and they have never been considered celestial before, nor real "Gods". Now that the Fourth World is destroyed, what is this "Heaven" that Darkseid speaks of?

But at the same time, I feel that this story will come to fruition that will bring it up to continuity, and that most of the hopes to defy that comes from posters, not Morrison or DC. The Anti-Life Equation can have a major impact and not allow even Superman to stand up to it. But by the end of this mini, I don't feel that, truly, Evil will win the day.The thing is, you're talking about "continuity", but what that really means is the official DC version of these characters as depicted by everybody EXCEPT their creator, Jack Kirby. If you read the original series, they definitely were real Gods. It's spelled right out for you. In writing them as Gods in Final Crisis, Morrison's going back to the Source, as it were.

Here's another example, from a short back up story about "Lonar, of New Genesis". Lonar's discovered a battle horse that's survived from the time of the Old Gods. They encounter Orion who admires the animal, which spontaneously bows his head to him. But when Orion tries to touch the horse, he rears up and Lonar has to ride away, while a despondent Orion broods, "Fear. Fear at the touch of Orion. Is it not always so?" Followed up by a final caption: "Is it not always so? What does Orion awaken in all living beings that for one fleeting moment links their spirit with his? It's one of the many natural mysteries that lure Lonar to a life of wandering. He must learn all by seeing and feeling and perhaps suffering with life around him. To Lonar - a blade of grass - a horse - a fierce god of war - are eternal links in the chain of truth."

No matter what you think of Kirby's language, it's pretty clear that he's trying to write about something beyond the scope of the usual superhero story here, and about beings other than superheroes.

[carabas]

But at the same time, I feel that this story will come to fruition that will bring it up to continuity, and that most of the hopes to defy that comes from posters, not Morrison or DC. The Anti-Life Equation can have a major impact and not allow even Superman to stand up to it. But by the end of this mini, I don't feel that, truly, Evil will win the day.Agreed. I have never for a second even considered that this would be DC's new status quo.
Final Crisis being self-continued, like Morrison insistantly claims to be, would infer that it has a proper ending, and not be like the Marvel events that just set up a new status quo, sputter a bit, and then just stop, rather than having endings.

I'm thinking Darkseid wins in #3, revels in his new power for four issues, and then discovers that the universe simply cannot exist with just Evil in it without Good to counterbalance it.

[Magneto Rocks]

I have to agree with some previous posters that so far this story doesn't make much continuity sense. Superman has always been able to hold his own with the New Gods, and they have never been considered celestial before, nor real "Gods". Now that the Fourth World is destroyed, what is this "Heaven" that Darkseid speaks of?

The Fourth World is the Heaven he was referring to- specifically, New Genesis.

As for the New Gods not being considered celestial, or Gods, berk is absolutely right- they are very clearly something far, far more in Kirby's work. Superman holding his own against Gods? Please. Yes, that's been established by writers since Kirby, but in the original, there was no competition. Heck, he was beaten around by MINIONS in Forever People #1 until the Infinity Man saved him. Any one of the Deep Six should kick Supe's ass, let alone the big leagues.

[Magneto Rocks]

Ahh, Mags, Mags, Mags. :biggrin:

But the purpose of the 4th World in Kirby's writing is that it was not set in the DCU by any shape

Not true, Darkseid's first appearance was in the very-much in-DCU Jimmy Olsen, the first New Gods ever seen were Simyan and Mokkari (I believe) in, again, the very much in-DCU Jimmy Olsen, Intergang were created, Apokolips-armed in that same in-DCU Jimmy Olsen, and in the first ever issue of a purely Fourth World comic, Superman was a major player. Whatever Kirby intended, the Fourth World was set in the DCU.


I still don't understand the hard on for Kirby, he draws everyone exactly the same and besides creating much of the Marvel 60's characters with Stan Lee, never been huge with him writing and drawing.

:eek:

....Okay, suffice to say I disagree with pretty much all of that. While I'm not one of those who claims Kirby did everything, or nearly everything, with the Marvel-stuff, he is forever the King of Comics for a reason. And yeah, I'd say the imagination and the power and the deeper message of the Fourth World books exceeds most stuff that has ever been put out in comicdom. Kirby was ahead of his time, and I'd happily stack up any of the three core Fourth World books against any ongoing comic series DC put out today.

[quote]But what happened after his Omnibus is DC took some of the 4th World characters and added them into the stat quo. /QUOTE]

Again, not true- they were firmly in it from their first appearance in Jimmy Olsen, and unlike the Zur En Arrh stuff etc, were never abandoned- as evidenced by their continued relevance in the first Crisis, in "Legends" and in sporadic ongoings throughout the 80s and 90s.

[Magneto Rocks]

Well, we never have agreed on much Mags, so this should not be any different.

...And yet you have only a day's worth of posts to your name? This confused me for a few seconds.... then I put it together. Still, a prime example of our seeming inability to agree on anything, no? :tongue:


I am more of a modern age type with liking the art of Jim Lee, Churchill and Michael Turner, and enjoy more of the writing styles of Jeph Loeb, Johns, Busiek, and yes, even Morrison. In my mind, Kirby is more known for his art, and everyone looks like Captain America running towards the page. His New Gods Action Figures claim the same, as they are all the same mold.

You know, I've enjoyed work by all the artists and writers you named- especially Johns- and yes, I'll acknowledge Kirby's artwork definitely lacks the polish of any modern artist, or the detail, or... etc. But I'd still put it up there for pure passion and energy bursting from the page- and let's not forget that Kirby put out more pages each week than a modern artist can in a month.


Thanks for the lesson of DCU - Jimmy Olsen and some New Gods, i.e. Darkseid, I was completely unaware. But at the same time, my "argument", if you wanna call it that, still holds water, as the Jimmy Olsen CB is no where to be found in the modern DCU timeline.

Nope, afraid it still doesn't. :p While you're right about Jimmy Olsen (Although those issues created Cadmus!) the Forever People #1 story (Which was where Superman encountered Darkseid for the first time) was retold post-Crisis by John Byrne and updated- and again more recently in Superman Confidential. So it's still firm continuity that the New Gods have been part of the DCU since they were created.

[Jim Thompson]

Agreed. I have never for a second even considered that this would be DC's new status quo.
Final Crisis being self-continued, like Morrison insistantly claims to be, would infer that it has a proper ending, and not be like the Marvel events that just set up a new status quo, sputter a bit, and then just stop, rather than having endings. Well, I agree Marvel has demonstrated they have no idea how to tell a complete story in their mini-series. :biggrin:

[Magneto Rocks]

Well, I agree Marvel has demonstrated they have no idea how to tell a complete story in their mini-series. :biggrin:

Hmm, I'm still not entirely sure that's true. World War Hulk, for example, had a beginning, a middle and a clearly defined end. The same with House of M. Heck. even Civil War had a pretty clear end- there's a final battle, a winner and a loser, we briefly see the consequences and get a taste of the new status quo. I can't really see how Infinite crisis, for example, had any more of a defined end than recent Marvel events.

[Jim Thompson]

Hmm, I'm still not entirely sure that's true. World War Hulk, for example, had a beginning, a middle and a clearly defined end. The same with House of M. Heck. even Civil War had a pretty clear end- there's a final battle, a winner and a loser, we briefly see the consequences and get a taste of the new status quo. I can't really see how Infinite crisis, for example, had any more of a defined end than recent Marvel events.World War Hulk came as close as anything Marvel has put out, though it resolved nothing, only set up more questions. House of M was a joke. What the hell was the point of that story? Civil War seemed to me to be full of thunder and fury, signifying nothing. Gave Millar a good chance to show "heroes" beating each other up, I guess.

[Will.S]

House of M was a joke. What the hell was the point of that story?It was mostly about dealing with Scarlet Witch, Quesada used the event to bottle up one of his "genies" though which lead to the whole 198/Decimation stuff. All the events you referenced did have a beginning, middle, and end no matter how unsatisfied you may have been with them.

[XPac]

Well, I agree Marvel has demonstrated they have no idea how to tell a complete story in their mini-series. :biggrin:

Their events are complete enough.

Both DC and marvel generally speaking use events to launch new storylines. Comic books are more like TV shows than movies... it's an on-going story.

They deal with whatever immediate threat occurs, then deal with the consequences afterwards.

[jtd]

Guys, I am going to buy the 4 Fourth World hardcovers. I know pretty much zilch about the New Gods (well, a bit here and there), and I want to read Jack Kirby's original stories.

And suggestions or advice with reading these? Any things to focus on, etc.? I just plan on sitting back and enjoying the read. But would love to hear anything from guys who seem to know so much about Kirby and his Fourth World creation ( like Jack Zodiac and Magneto Rocks)

Thanks!

[Jim Thompson]

It was mostly about dealing with Scarlet Witch, Quesada used the event to bottle up one of his "genies" though which lead to the whole 198/Decimation stuff. All the events you referenced did have a beginning, middle, and end no matter how unsatisfied you may have been with them.House of M was marketed as a book that was going to tie up a bunch of loose ends in the MU, and it didn't even come close to doing that. It left more questions than it answered. And, as an added bonus, it seems to have been largely ignored since being put out.

[Will.S]

House of M was marketed as a book that was going to tie up a bunch of loose ends in the MU, and it didn't even come close to doing that. It left more questions than it answered.
All it was meant to do was to address the Wanda situation between the Avengers and the mutants which is why the X-Men showed up. Granted, she put an end to the House of M herself after the climax had hit but the book did have an ending and it put her on the shelf for quite a bit of time.


And, as an added bonus, it seems to have been largely ignored since being put out.
How so?

Mutant population is still drastically reduced, the New Avengers fought a product of all the mutant energies in the Collective, Wanda is still in some European village (Hawkeye, Speed, and Wiccan were there too), Ms. Marvel got a bit of a jump start from the event, and they revisited the House of M world again not too long ago.

I do think that Final Crisis will have a better sense of closure than most events but it'll undoubtedly have the New Gods carry on in their new forms as well as whatever elements that stick.

[carabas]

Hmm, I'm still not entirely sure that's true. World War Hulk, for example, had a beginning, a middle and a clearly defined end. The same with House of M. Heck. even Civil War had a pretty clear end- there's a final battle, a winner and a loser, we briefly see the consequences and get a taste of the new status quo. I can't really see how Infinite crisis, for example, had any more of a defined end than recent Marvel events.I didn't read World War Hulk, but while it did have a beginning, that beginning did not take place within WWH, but in Planet Hulk (which did not have an ending but a cliffhanger and a "to be continued in our next 50 issue event").

House Of M was a joke. It was nominally about the X-Men and the Avengers dealing with Wanda's out of control powers.
It that had 5 or so issues of Wolverine & co. running about an Elseworld, which pretty much amounted to nothing much since they weren't even really involved in the finale.
We then get the set-up for the new X-Men status quo (please buy the many books we will publish about this) and what the story really was about, namely the Wanda problem, didn't get resolved because they couldn't find her anymore.

Civil War also didn't have a proper ending. There were a bunch of fights, and then it just kinda stopped, with the main conflict that Civil War was about still continuing to this day.

They weren't proper stories, they were merely bits and pieces of stories.

[Paul McEnery]

Guys, I am going to buy the 4 Fourth World hardcovers. I know pretty much zilch about the New Gods (well, a bit here and there), and I want to read Jack Kirby's original stories.

And suggestions or advice with reading these? Any things to focus on, etc.? I just plan on sitting back and enjoying the read. But would love to hear anything from guys who seem to know so much about Kirby and his Fourth World creation ( like Jack Zodiac and Magneto Rocks)

Thanks!

In the first place, buy them one at a time, and savour them.

In the second place, prepare yourself for the sad anti-climax, as Jack's books were cancelled on him one at a time, until he was down to just Mister Miracle. Then be even sadder as the last chunk gets screwed around with even by Jack, as what starts out as one thing gets recommissioned as a bigger thing, and Jack tries to make it all work, but just bollocks it up, really.

So it's a beautiful failure, like an Unfinished Symphony, if you like, very raw in places, but at this point something that's gone through being dated and all the way back to being something you can look at in its own merits, perhaps even more than you could at the time (it didn't meet 11 year old me's approval back then -- I had grownup things like Warlock to read!).

Which is why it's so tempting for everyone to take a crack at it, I guess. There it is, not quite finished, never utilized to its full potential, crackling with ideas and looking absolutely gorgeous, and hey, maybe I can be the first person to finish it!

[Magneto Rocks]

Guys, I am going to buy the 4 Fourth World hardcovers. I know pretty much zilch about the New Gods (well, a bit here and there), and I want to read Jack Kirby's original stories.

And suggestions or advice with reading these? Any things to focus on, etc.? I just plan on sitting back and enjoying the read. But would love to hear anything from guys who seem to know so much about Kirby and his Fourth World creation ( like Jack Zodiac and Magneto Rocks)

Thanks!

I'm flattered, though I'd still say Sean Walsh is far and away the biggest New Gods authority on the Internet. Or possibly existence, short of Mark Evanier. ;)

As for things to focus on- yes, as Paul points out, the saga doesn't really end. Well, it does, but it's unsatisfying- the entire last volume is definitely the weakest as by this point, it's mostly Mister Miracle, and Kirby never could do the true ending he wanted, instead we have to settle for the watered down Hunger Dogs as the final story.

Beyond that..... some of the Jimmy Olsen stuff is definitely weaker than the three core books in the collection as well. (Some of the Olsen stuff collected isn't even relevant to the Fourth World, really) and you need to be prepared for the bizarre. And I mean BIZARRE. If the first few issues don't blow your mind, you're made of sterner stuff than I was. The only other thing I'd say is that sometimes, it's better not to read it in the order it's published. Forever People, for example, has a fantastic story that runs from issue 3 to issue 7, and having to read 3 different issues between each one really does the momentum somewhat

Oh, and above all- enjoy one of the least appreciated and best comics works in the medium's history. :biggrin:

[Paul Newell]

Wasn't there talk that Dc would try and restore Hunger Dogs to its original version? I take it they never ended up doing it.

[Magneto Rocks]

I'm not sure Kirby ever finished the original- DC stopped him when they heard he wished to kill off Orion and Darkseid. And it would be a crime to get someone else to script/draw the end, even if they did it the way Kirby originally wanted to do.

[Paul McEnery]

Wasn't there talk that Dc would try and restore Hunger Dogs to its original version? I take it they never ended up doing it.

In the Omnibus, we get the Hunger Dogs as originally printed (after much agonizing by the editorial team); but you also get a b&w breakdown of the first draft -- all of which's pages made it into the final mix.

How it was was like two regular issues, but he combined them with some new stuff in a style he hadn't tried before -- and kinda works and kinda feels funky, though the fact that the pages are now all in a different shape and colouring doesn't help. And the old stuff is now in a radically different order -- and it don't exactly make sense like that. All the standard Kirby driving narrative is now as jittery as a Morrison book -- and Morrison does jitters well, but Kirby don't.

[Magneto Rocks]

In the Omnibus, we get the Hunger Dogs as originally printed (after much agonizing by the editorial team); but you also get a b&w breakdown of the first draft -- all of which's pages made it into the final mix..

Really? That's interesting. I have yet to buy the Fourth Omnibus, but I had all the composite comics anyway. I'll puzzle my way through that when I finally get arouind to getting it.

[Paul McEnery]

Really? That's interesting. I have yet to buy the Fourth Omnibus, but I had all the composite comics anyway. I'll puzzle my way through that when I finally get arouind to getting it.

For the price, I think they should have done both "endings" in colour, starting with Kirby's "first draft", then doing the Hunger Dogs as published.

Also, and I don't know how much this is because of the garbled re-edit -- and we can really see why and how Kirby worked the way he did, just charging through from front to back and making what sense of it he could along the way like a Charlie Parker solo, and not tidying up after himself like a Bach study -- but I felt there was a kind of queasy nihilism about what we got in the end, one that reflects Kirby's sense of his own mortality, but also that the stuffing had been beaten out of him not just on this project but by all the people he'd worked for.

[Jack Zodiac]

... like a Charlie Parker solo ...

Dude, I wanna, like, do you and stuff now.

[ultramandingo]

I'm not sure Kirby ever finished the original- DC stopped him when they heard he wished to kill off Orion and Darkseid. .

........dc stoped him cus it wasnt selling well , doubt dc cared if they lived or died or hung out with don rickels

http://widget.slide.com/rdr/1/1/3/W/170000000dcd86f7/1/88/su85gYEd3z9ZPkTmx75JFOnAhbUYJqvV.jpg (http://www.slide.com/s/HGv9FaRP7z_kvPjir4dJWHzVqJ1wESoU?referrer=hlnk)


.........waitaminute i think i just figugred out who libra is !

[TimothyCallahan]

The Fourth World Omnibus doesn't actually have The Hunger Dogs as originally published. It has a mish-mash of some of Kirby's original pages (before the format change caused him to compose the pages differently) plus the rest of the pages as originally published. In other words, it's kind of a mess, and if you can track down a copy of the graphic novel, it's worth it. The Fourth World Omnibus version is neither Kirby's original concept nor the version as published in the 1980s. It's a mutant form of both.

ALSO, in completely shameless mode, I'd like to point out that my book, "Grant Morrison: The Early Years" is available for order in the July Previews (http://www.sequart.org/books/in-house.htm). If you want to see Grant's first take on Crisis--back in "Zenith: Phase Three," then my book can help you see what he did then vs. what he's doing now.

[jtd]

Paul McEnery & Mageneto Rocks, thanks for those great insights. I've learned a good amount about old Kirby Fourth Word mythos from reading the great responses in this thread.

And before I delve into reading the hardcovers, I wanted to be a bit educated on Kirby and his New Gods, and how best to prepare/approach the books.

Thanks again. Good stuff.

-Peter

[Captain Jim]

what the heck is "Theotoxic"?

Deadly to theologists and priests?:rolleyes:

"Theos" is the greek word for "God."

So "theo - toxic" means deadly to gods.

[carabas]

........dc stoped him cus it wasnt selling well , doubt dc cared if they lived or died or hung out with don rickels...
They canceled the original Fourth World books because they weren't selling. They interfered with the Hunger Dogs (which wasn't part of that run and came about years later) because he was going to kill Darkseid and/or Orion.

[princesa]

I know this has been gone over before. I got the first two issues yesterday and read them...I also have read I read Death of the New Gods. I'm confused. A.Whats going on?. B. Whats going on?

[Paul McEnery]

I know this has been gone over before. I got the first two issues yesterday and read them...I also have read I read Death of the New Gods. I'm confused. A.Whats going on?. B. Whats going on?

Forget DONG every happened.

There. It all makes sense now, doesn't it.

[ultramandingo]

They interfered with the Hunger Dogs (which wasn't part of that run and came about years later) because he was going to kill Darkseid and/or Orion.

....to bad they didnt bother to " interfere " with countdown or deathofthenewgods for the same reasons

[Will.S]

Forget DONG every happened.

There. It all makes sense now, doesn't it.
It really would depend on what the question is, he/she doesn't get into any sort of specifics of what's really confusing him/her.

[princesa]

Forget DONG every happened.

There. It all makes sense now, doesn't it.


It helps, I was like where is the half and half guy?

[princesa]

It really would depend on what the question is, he/she doesn't get into any sort of specifics of what's really confusing him/her.

Okay so DNG didn't happen. And I am guessing the vanquished to earth guy is a monitor?

[Will.S]

Okay so DNG didn't happen. And I am guessing the vanquished to earth guy is a monitor?
Death of the New Gods actually does happen according to Morrison since he's going to reference Orion's death in Final Crisis #3. Here's a piece of the Newsarama interview regarding DotNG


Grant Morrison: Orion’s appearance on the docks and the Guardians’ response in Final Crisis #1 was written and drawn first. Jim Starlin then created Orion’s death scene in Death Of The New Gods to lead into the War God’s appearance in Final Crisis #1, so we refer back to Jim’s scene in Final Crisis #3. When I wrote that scene, Orion’s terminal injuries were a result of the mysterious bolt of light which Jim hit him with in Death Of The New Gods #6. By the time Countdown #1 came out, I was working on Final Crisis #4 and #5 and JG was drawing #3, so we were already well into our own story and unable to change it to match Countdown.

And yeah the guy that was banished from being a Monitor was a former Monitor.

[berk]

It really would depend on what the question is, he/she doesn't get into any sort of specifics of what's really confusing him/her.Not really There's nothing in DotNG that has anything to do with Morrison's story - or with Kirby's, for that matter. So the specific confusion doesn't really matter. Just treat Final Crisis as its own thing, and don't expect to understand everything at once. Let it unfold and reveal itself at its own pace, just as if you were reading a novel or seeing a movie.

[Captain Jim]

http://widget.slide.com/rdr/1/1/3/W/170000000dcd86f7/1/88/su85gYEd3z9ZPkTmx75JFOnAhbUYJqvV.jpg (http://www.slide.com/s/HGv9FaRP7z_kvPjir4dJWHzVqJ1wESoU?referrer=hlnk)

Hey! I've got a letter printed in that comic! In fact, the only letter I ever had printed in any comic.

[berk]

Death of the New Gods actually does happen according to Morrison since he's going to reference Orion's death in Final Crisis #3. Here's a piece of the Newsarama interview regarding DotNG



And yeah the guy that was banished from being a Monitor was a former Monitor.Yeah, and earlier in that interview, Morrison says that FC was conceived, plotted and begun before DotNG was ever thought of. I'm quite disappointed that he felt it necessary to try to reference DotNG at all, but obviously he thinks he can do it without too much trouble and wants to try to be a team player. There's lots of stuff in DotNG that mess up Morrison's story - like all the New Gods being killed when Morrison wanted Orion's death in FC#1 to be the first the reader saw (same interview again).


But lucky for us, we don't need DotNG (or bloody Countdown) to understand Final Crisis, and the only reason it could possibly be of any importance to anyone is if they're more concerned with "continuity" than with story.

[Paul Newell]

Man, if we ever have a CBR trivia contest, we have a great question.

"What do Captain Jim and Don Rickles have in common?" :)

[Captain Jim]

But lucky for us, we don't need DotNG (or bloody Countdown) to understand Final Crisis, and the only reason it could possibly be of any importance to anyone is if they're more concerned with "continuity" than with story.

Well, DotNG certainly doesn't seem necessary (and may prove more of a hinderance than a help, even though I personally enjoyed it). On the other hand, I think you'd be rather clueless about all that stuff with the monitors if you didn't read Countdown.

[berk]

I dunno, I didn't read Countdown and have barely heard of the Monitors, but I didn't find my ignorance to be a problem in reading Final Crisis 1 & 2. But I have to admit, you do pick up a lot of stuff just from reading the FC threads, so maybe that's why.

[Paul McEnery]

Well, DotNG certainly doesn't seem necessary (and may prove more of a hinderance than a help, even though I personally enjoyed it). On the other hand, I think you'd be rather clueless about all that stuff with the monitors if you didn't read Countdown.

Not me.

Didn't read Countdown at all, got filled in just fine in the Monitors scene.

[princesa]

I'm going to have to hunt some Countdown threads...

[Ite]

Very good issue definate improvement over issue #1.

After reading this and Requiem DC has really pulled me in and made me interested in Final Crisis.

[Dark Master]

Yeah, and earlier in that interview, Morrison says that FC was conceived, plotted and begun before DotNG was ever thought of. I'm quite disappointed that he felt it necessary to try to reference DotNG at all, but obviously he thinks he can do it without too much trouble and wants to try to be a team player. There's lots of stuff in DotNG that mess up Morrison's story.

But DotNG do far is a better story then Final Crisis, so if they are going to sacrifice one story to save the other, my vote is to axe FC. Truthfully Morrison has been sucking for a while now on his DC projects.

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

But DotNG do far is a better story then Final Crisis, so if they are going to sacrifice one story to save the other, my vote is to axe FC. Truthfully Morrison has been sucking for a while now on his DC projects.

I couldn't disagree more. All Star Superman is just about the finest Superman work I've ever read, Batman started slow, but is now building tremendous momentum and while I'm not sure Final Crisis is going to meet my exaggerated expectations, it has, so far been a good book. J. G. Jones could have used a bit more time by the drawing board, though. I think it's weird that the big two are still operating on a monthly scheduled with these big, company-wide prestige projects. Why not just plan ahead, get it all drawn and then release it?

Final Crisis is going to be a victim of it's own hype for many people, I think. Marvel's doing better marketing-wise by not claiming that every new thing is necessarily the best thing ever. It's something different. That said, I much prefer Final Crisis to Secret Invasion. I do, however, think that Legion of Three Worlds will probably be just as good, if not better, than the main event. Johns does a great job with Superguy Prime.

[Jack Tango]

...(snip)...Superguy Prime.

Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner! THAT should be his new name!

[Jack Zodiac]

But DotNG do far is a better story then Final Crisis, so if they are going to sacrifice one story to save the other, my vote is to axe FC. Truthfully Morrison has been sucking for a while now on his DC projects.

Morrison's books are the best comics DC is printing, and some of them are some of the best comics DC's ever printed.

[Magneto Rocks]

Morrison's books are the best comics DC is printing, and some of them are some of the best comics DC's ever printed.

Hmm, both very debateable, I think. I really like a lot of Morrison's stuff but other than JLA and maybe- maybe All-Star Supes, I'm not sure I'd say it compares to some of the best DC stuff ever.

[Jack Zodiac]

His JLA is kid's stuff compared to what he's doing with Batman and All-Star Superman, and what he did with Animal Man, Seven Soldiers of Victory, and DC 1,000,000. I'm sure enough of his work to believe that in the end, Final Crisis will be great, and if it's finished properly, maybe one of DC's best events ever.

[Magneto Rocks]

His JLA is kid's stuff compared to what he's doing with Batman and All-Star Superman, and what he did with Animal Man, Seven Soldiers of Victory, and DC 1,000,000. I'm sure enough of his work to believe that in the end, Final Crisis will be great, and if it's finished properly, maybe one of DC's best events ever.

See, I've read all of that, and can't say I was a fan of his DC 1,000,000 or his Batman. I get the themes he's playing with, and that's great and all, but I think somewhere along the line, those projects lost most of their soul and ability to make me care. Whereas JLA, and even Final Crisis, All-Star Supes and some of his other stuff like Animal Man are still enjoyable comics, rather than chores to read.

[Paul McEnery]

See, I've read all of that, and can't say I was a fan of his DC 1,000,000 or his Batman. I get the themes he's playing with, and that's great and all, but I think somewhere along the line, those projects lost most of their soul and ability to make me care. Whereas JLA, and even Final Crisis, All-Star Supes and some of his other stuff like Animal Man are still enjoyable comics, rather than chores to read.

Well, DC Million got buggered up by editorial, too. Grant wanted to use just a few core titles to write his story, and DC made him enforce plots on absolutely bloody everyone! Not, it has to be said, to the writers' universal happiness. And part of that was definitely Grant biting off more than he could chew, but it seems to me the editor's job is to do something about that, not make it worse.

So the book reads -- and I just reread it -- as a sprawling mess, when I remember reading it at the time, in the knowledge of what else was on the shelves, as a masterpiece of clarity and concision, and as an awful lot of pop fun. The way the bits and pieces have been badly excerpted for the book -- leaving out the lovely Chronos One Mill, with JH Williams, yet, which is actually integral to the plot -- ruins everything. It's too bad.

[NeoStar9X]

Just finished reading Final Crisis #1 and #2 and I have to say I really enjoyed it. I figured something happen to Turpin since he was still looking for the kids in #2 but he clearly found them in #1. Clearly a lost of memory and him acting more and more aggressive and wondering what was wrong with him. The conversation he had once he got to Buldhaven sealed it that Darkseid had taken over his body. Wasn't that hard to understand at all.

What I am curious about is the Alpha Lanterns. They don't appear, at least the lead investigator that shows up, to be normal beings. She at least came off to me to be more like a Manhunter machine. Which begs the question of why the Guardians of the Universe are opening that can of worms again. Didn't they learn the last time and wasn't that the reasons why they decided upon the Green Lanterns. At least that's what it looks like as I was reading Green Lantern: No Fear.

I like how Batman was captured as well. However I really want to know what is being done to him now.

The Superman part of the story was interesting and I wonder what the fallout will be. Clearly Clayface was posing as Jimmy. Which is why the bomb was allowed to go off as soon as the elevator he was in closed. He most likely could live through an explosion like that but anyone else not so much. It looked like it went off on the floor they were on as well.Clark's cloths were burned off. There was nothing to take cover behind obviously. How close to death I wonder is Lois. Also Perry could have easily been killed when you think about it.

All in all I didn't find these issues at all, though I only mentioned events in #2, hard to understand. The only thing I'm a big confused about is the Mister Miracle bit. The Monitor part of the story in #1 was interesting and I think one only has to know that a multi-verse exist in the DCU and should be able to catch on. I want to see more of that. Now I didn't read Countdown or New Gods so that could help but going into it fresh wasn't hard at all.

It does look like the villains have already won this fight and seems like they've won for some time now but just are finishing up some lose ends. I just wish there was a better sense of time in this story though. How much time between certain events would be nice to know.

[KJ_81]

What I am curious about is the Alpha Lanterns. They don't appear, at least the lead investigator that shows up, to be normal beings. She at least came off to me to be more like a Manhunter machine. Which begs the question of why the Guardians of the Universe are opening that can of worms again. Didn't they learn the last time and wasn't that the reasons why they decided upon the Green Lanterns. At least that's what it looks like as I was reading Green Lantern: No Fear.

The Alpha Lanterns are from the main Green Lantern book.