Six Months of "Civil Debate" about Amazing Spider-Man's current direction [Archive]

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 05:54 PM

You're bitter. :mad: And I'm happy. :smile:.
6 months of :evilangry: vs. 6 months of :biggrin: .
Maybe you should find something positive to do with your next half of a year.
Why not post some support for something you enjoy?

i do. check out the avengers / hulk / x-men forums from time to time.

it's obviously more time consuming to debate with an opposing viewer, than to just state.

" i like psylocke". once....

oh, and spidey isnt the only comic out there right now, so i have plenty to be happy about. BND just happenes to be the worst thing to happen in comics in a loooong time.. thus why you see so much of us anti-BND peeps. wow. guess BND really screwed with alot more fans than most people thought...oh wellZ.

black_spidey728

06-24-2008, 06:08 PM

Yes. We're praising something that we enjoy, because we still enjoy it. Because when you enjoy something it's pretty natural to continue reading it, and talking about it. There's a difference between that and complaining about something daily for half a year.

How is that different...you lost me. You're saying it's OK to praise something you enjoy, but it's not OK for us to complain about it? Why are our feelings about the product any less valid?

black_spidey728

06-24-2008, 06:10 PM

Muscles Coleman

06-24-2008, 06:18 PM

Ya know, I switched over to CBR because the Newsarama bitch-fests were getting on my nerves... but I guess it's the same everywhere. You all take things way too personally when some anonymous poster disagrees with your assessment of a fictional super-hero.

BlackToe

06-24-2008, 06:22 PM

So what if we enjoy trashing BND?

Then that would likely to be akin to being a troll and likely the way to get banned from the forum.

If I went into the Xmen section and constantly bashed it and the others that read it, how likely would it be that a mod would ban me for trollish behaviour?

ultimatespyder20

06-24-2008, 06:25 PM

Then that would likely to be akin to being a troll and likely the way to get banned from the forum.

If I went into the Xmen section and constantly bashed it and the others that read it, how likely would it be that a mod would ban me for trollish behaviour?

Very likley. I'm not on either side. I boycotted BND, but I don't believe you should bash all that Marvel does just because you are pissed at this. Don't waste your time dissing BND and use your time showing your support for something else.

Alec

Matt Linton

06-24-2008, 06:28 PM

How is that different...you lost me. You're saying it's OK to praise something you enjoy, but it's not OK for us to complain about it? Why are our feelings about the product any less valid?

Continue to complain about something. That's the difference. If each issue comes out, and we read each issue, and we enjoy each issue, then yes, we're going to praise each issue.

But if each issue comes out, you either don't read the issues because you don't like the status quo/creative team/whatever, you haven't enjoyed it in months and months, then what's the point in continuing to complain with each issue?

You've complained. You're complaint has either been noted or ignored. Barring anything changing, what's the point in continuing to complaint? To say, "Yep, still hate it!"?

The biggest difference is, those of us who are praising it aren't just blanketly praising the status quo every issue. We're reading each issue and praising what we like about it, which may be different with each issue.

Those who are complaining are, for the most part, not even reading the books, and not complaining about anything different every issue. They're complaining about the same thing every time: the status quo.

It's like if every single issue one of us was saying, "Yep, love that the marriage is gone!"

BlackToe

06-24-2008, 06:29 PM

Very likley. I'm not on either side. I boycotted BND, but I don't believe you should bash all that Marvel does just because you are pissed at this. Don't waste your time dissing BND and use your time showing your support for something else.

Alec

Exactly! You dont like BND, its not your "cup of tea". You dropped it and gave energy supporting something else you believe deserves it. I wholeheartly respect that, because thats what I'd do.

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 06:37 PM

ultimatespyder20

06-24-2008, 06:40 PM

i do. check out the avengers / hulk / x-men forums from time to time.

it's obviously more time consuming to debate with an opposing viewer, than to just state.

" i like psylocke". once....

oh, and spidey isnt the only comic out there right now, so i have plenty to be happy about. BND just happenes to be the worst thing to happen in comics in a loooong time.. thus why you see so much of us anti-BND peeps. wow. guess BND really screwed with alot more fans than most people thought...oh wellZ.

Dude, give fun a chance to thrive in comics. If an 8 year old kid walked into an LCS and saw a 616 Spier-man comic, they would be thrilled to get it. But, if they went and read it and it was pre-BND they continuity and the weight of it would turn them away. Now, you'll say, "Well, they could read Ult. or MA." Well, what if the understood the universal difference and they want the "real" Spidey?

My point is, give FUN a chance to survive in comics. We don't need 30 years of continuity to enjoy a story. Do you want this medium to survive or what? Face it, eventually the current fans die away. If they are not replaced, what happens to the medium. How is a new generation supposed to get into comics when things are bagged down by 15 years of prior knowledge? Not everybody has the money to afford the trades and backissues to do back reading. BND is a good example of making comics fun and having the thought intention on new readers coming into this medium for the first time.

Alec

ultimatespyder20

06-24-2008, 06:43 PM

first off , matt... you CONTINUE to praise BND. Nothing different about us CONTINUING to complain about BND. you and marvel want us to go away. sorry, not happening...

second off, ultimatespyder... i boycott BND... so i dont pay for it. I dropped ironman, and avengers. i still buy x-men... and on top of all that, i'm a completists, so i try to put up with as much crap as i can before dropping anything. BND went passed that point, so i dropped it. so no, i dont support that crap. so dont assume that i support the "shit"... cause i don't.

third off Blackey... you cant get banned for complaining about spiderman, just as much as you could for praising it. and for the record,

If I went into the Xmen section and constantly bashed it and the others that read it, how likely would it be that a mod would ban me for trollish behaviour?

it's not a question of if... you do bash. second, you wouldnt likely get banned, if the moderator shared your views.

Well then, get off of bashing it and go use your words to support what you buy. I just don't see why you WASTE your TIME bashing something you do not buy.

"Why do I defend something I don't buy?"

Cause, I want FUN to SURVIVE in comics. I hate to see the idea of fun comic books getting shot down. More reasons, read my above post. I may not buy it, but I know it has the reputation as a fun book written for everybody. I don't want to take that from anybody, or bash it.

Alec

black_spidey728

06-24-2008, 06:55 PM

Continue to complain about something. That's the difference. If each issue comes out, and we read each issue, and we enjoy each issue, then yes, we're going to praise each issue.

But if each issue comes out, you either don't read the issues because you don't like the status quo/creative team/whatever, you haven't enjoyed it in months and months, then what's the point in continuing to complain with each issue?

You've complained. You're complaint has either been noted or ignored. Barring anything changing, what's the point in continuing to complaint? To say, "Yep, still hate it!"?

The biggest difference is, those of us who are praising it aren't just blanketly praising the status quo every issue. We're reading each issue and praising what we like about it, which may be different with each issue.

Those who are complaining are, for the most part, not even reading the books, and not complaining about anything different every issue. They're complaining about the same thing every time: the status quo.

It's like if every single issue one of us was saying, "Yep, love that the marriage is gone!"

We'll as I've said before, I find it funny that I'm able to elicit such a strong reaction just by voicing my displeasure. If what I'm saying "rains on your parade" all like that, why do you even respond? It seems like the anti side gets bombarded with "You guys don't do anything constructive...you just bash BND for no reason." "You're not accomplishing anything con , so what's the point." We get that you don't understand where we are coming from and don't understand us.

I won't put words in anyone's mouth, I'll just speak for myself. I feel as if JQ issued a personal challange to me. He told me as a fan to screw off if I didn't like the status quo. He told me that he really didn't need me as a fan and he could do without me.

OK, that's fine...see what happens when you bite the hand that feeds you. Am I mad? Hell yeah, I'm mad. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd take out a full-page ad in the New York Times telling JQ what an ass he is and how much of a cluster-f*** BND is.
:biggrin:

black_spidey728

06-24-2008, 07:07 PM

Matt Linton

06-24-2008, 07:12 PM

first off , matt... you CONTINUE to praise BND. Nothing different about us CONTINUING to complain about BND. you and marvel want us to go away. sorry, not happening...

Read my post and try again. I explained how it's different. And I've never said anyone should go away. I've said I don't understand why someone would complain about a comic book every day for six months, but if that's how you or anyone else wants to spend your time, then fine. If I say I don't understand why someone would go skydiving that doesn't mean I want people to stop skydiving.

Alan2099

06-24-2008, 07:23 PM

As fun as it is for you, it's just as unfun for us.
Here's a crazy idea. Why not talk about something you actually like instead? Why waste all that energy being negative?

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 07:41 PM

Well then, get off of bashing it and go use your words to support what you buy. I just don't see why you WASTE your TIME bashing something you do not buy.

"Why do I defend something I don't buy?"

Cause, I want FUN to SURVIVE in comics. I hate to see the idea of fun comic books getting shot down. More reasons, read my above post. I may not buy it, but I know it has the reputation as a fun book written for everybody. I don't want to take that from anybody, or bash it.

Alec

people bash what they dont like because they hope to spread negative criticism about said product, so as to keep potential people from buying said product, so that there may be a decline in profit of said product, so as to hopefully see a return or difference in the current product.

other words, youll have to deal with the people who hate BND spiey, and want pre OMD spidey back.

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 07:43 PM

Read my post and try again. I explained how it's different. And I've never said anyone should go away. I've said I don't understand why someone would complain about a comic book every day for six months, but if that's how you or anyone else wants to spend your time, then fine. If I say I don't understand why someone would go skydiving that doesn't mean I want people to stop skydiving.

i can understand why someone would complain about BND for six months. I can't understand why someone would defend it for six months though. :eek:

ShaggyB

06-24-2008, 08:04 PM

Hey mets, we all know of your bias towards BND... but how bout a thread for

" Six Months of defending BND " ??? :confused:

Because its a spider-man board, kinda of a given that you'll find die hard fans here that would defend it till the end.

You still havent answered why someone whom obviously hates BND would continuely, night in and night out for 6 months.... argue about the quality of BND with people whom enjoy it.

Seems like a gaint waist of time. You arent gonna sway anyone here that likes it to suddenly not like it.

You arent spreading the word of some gaint boycott like black said. You arent impacting sales and likewise you cant possibly be clinging to estimates as if they showed some great truth. You arent getting marvels attention, you arent doing this to show Marvel your discontent as your efforts could be best spent elsewhere and likely get better results....

So the question remains, why complain day in and day out about something you hate?

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 08:08 PM

Because its a spider-man board, kinda of a given that you'll find die hard fans here that would defend it till the end.

You still havent answered why someone whom obviously hates BND would continuely, night in and night out for 6 months.... argue about the quality of BND with people whom enjoy it.

Seems like a gaint waist of time. You arent gonna sway anyone here that likes it to suddenly not like it.

You arent spreading the word of some gaint boycott like black said. You arent impacting sales and likewise you cant possibly be clinging to estimates as if they showed some great truth. You arent getting marvels attention, you arent doing this to show Marvel your discontent as your efforts could be best spent elsewhere and likely get better results....

So the question remains, why complain day in and day out about something you hate?

YEAH, die hard pre OMD spiderman fans. BND spidey is a new creation. :rolleyes:

so yeah, i answered you. I told you that someone would complain about bnd spidey for six months for the same reason another would defend BND for six months. Two passionate spidey fans differing in opinions. it's actually pretty simple, so dont let that go over yer head. :wink:

giant waste of time? ya, you sure as hell arent going to sway anyones opinions with your praise / defendind of BND either, if thats your logic.

take a look in the mirror, and say everything you just said to me... right back at that mirror. :cool:

ShaggyB

06-24-2008, 08:13 PM

YEAH, die hard pre OMD spiderman fans. BND spidey is a new creation. :rolleyes:

so yeah, i answered you. I told you that someone would complain about bnd spidey for six months for the same reason another would defend BND for six months. Two passionate spidey fans differing in opinions. it's actually pretty simple, so dont let that go over yer head. :wink:

giant waste of time? ya, you sure as hell arent going to sway anyones opinions with your praise / defendind of BND either, if thats your logic.

take a look in the mirror, and say everything you just said to me... right back at that mirror. :cool:

Question is if im following the direction marvel is taking the character, do i have to sway anyones opinion? Do i crave something old back? Do i want a change to occur or am i fine with the current path?

Again what do you gain by complaining here to us? If not to insight change at Marvel then what?

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 08:16 PM

Question is if im following the direction marvel is taking the character, do i have to sway anyones opinion? Do i crave something old back? Do i want a change to occur or am i fine with the current path?

Again what do you gain by complaining here to us? If not to insight change at Marvel then what?

sure you do. you want people to pick up the title, cause if it starts to drop too far, your direction will change, in our favor. you yeah, dont pretend you have no vested interest in BND. you want it to succeed. I want it to utterly fail.

if you need an example, see clone saga. Yes, it's that simple.

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 08:16 PM

ShaggyB

06-24-2008, 08:18 PM

sure you do. you want people to pick up the title, cause if it starts to drop too far, your direction will change, in our favor. you yeah, dont pretend you have no vested interest in BND. you want it to succeed. I want it to utterly fail.

if you need an example, see clone saga. Yes, it's that simple.

honestly i could careless if other people jump on. Im enjoying it. If they change it to something else ill probably like that too. Everyonce and awhile marvel hits something i dont like.... but for the most part the next story makes up for it.

Alan2099

06-24-2008, 08:20 PM

I rarely care what other people think about things, but I'm more than happy to point out when people are acting stupid.

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 08:23 PM

honestly i could careless if other people jump on. Im enjoying it. If they change it to something else ill probably like that too. Everyonce and awhile marvel hits something i dont like.... but for the most part the next story makes up for it.

heres the difference.. its not the NEXT story line. its the "LAST 20 YEARS OF READING MARRIED SPIDEY NEVER HAPPENED. " storyline.

it's a bit different from your average bad / good storyline, no ?

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 08:25 PM

I rarely care what other people think about things, but I'm more than happy to point out when people are acting stupid.

I like making people; who like making people feel stupid, feel stupid.

( If you can't read that line, you are stupid. :tongue: )

pop quiz: how many "stupids" do you see above ???

ShaggyB

06-24-2008, 08:26 PM

again, what do you gain by defending BND to us ?

( i can play this game of turning your own words on you all night. )

im sure you can, because you have no real answers. It seems more like yud rather not face the fact that the only reason you post is because you are upset and dont know of any other way to react. Posting here gains you nothing but a release. It doesnt change the direction Marvel took the character... It never will. Like i suggested to Black, why not actually go be pro-active about trying to get a change?

As to why i defend it. Mainly its due to the fact that some of the anti crowd likes to state things as facts that arent facts, I like correcting things of that nature.

ShaggyB

06-24-2008, 08:27 PM

I like making people; who like making people feel stupid, feel stupid.

( If you can't read that line, you are stupid. :tongue: )

pop quiz: how many "stupids" do you see above ???

ooo youve sunk to insults. So basically you cant really state why you do what you do when backed into a corner......

My point is proven. Thanks

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 08:31 PM

ooo youve sunk to insults. So basically you cant really state why you do what you do when backed into a corner......

My point is proven. Thanks

um, dont have a guilty conscience about feeling stupid, cause that wasnt necessarily meant towards you... :rolleyes:

and no, i state all the time why i do what i do. you just cant accept the facts i give you, because they totally flip your foundation upside down. You HATE when i tell you that your own argument can be used against you. For someone with an OPEN MIND, they would understand the point i was trying to get across to you, and they would see that my reverse questions actually answer your original questions by themselves.

understand that? no?
point proven Thanks.

black_spidey728

06-24-2008, 08:33 PM

sure you do. you want people to pick up the title, cause if it starts to drop too far, your direction will change, in our favor. you yeah, dont pretend you have no vested interest in BND. you want it to succeed. I want it to utterly fail.

if you need an example, see clone saga. Yes, it's that simple.

Right, as much as we want the change, you guys don't want it changed. If the book dipped down to a point were real change was being discussed, I'm positive many of you would be "railing against the machine" as fierce`ly as we are.

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 08:37 PM

Right, as much as we want the change, you guys don't want it changed. If the book dipped down to a point were real change was being discussed, I'm positive many of you would be "railing against the machine" as fierce`ly as we are.

watch it, apparently, they are open minded, and that means they'll accept whatever crap marvel feeds em. .... it's just us "close minded" individuals that would actually have the nerve to bash a marvel storyline... :rolleyes:

BlackToe

06-24-2008, 08:45 PM

third off Blackey... you cant get banned for complaining about spiderman, just as much as you could for praising it. and for the record,

If I went into the Xmen section and constantly bashed it and the others that read it, how likely would it be that a mod would ban me for trollish behaviour?

it's not a question of if... you do bash. second, you wouldnt likely get banned, if the moderator shared your views.

You need to read it again and the why. If the sole reason for you to come in here, is to bash constantly for a personal crusade agenda to keep others from enjoying it, then yes its considered trolling. And that is bannable offence throughout all sections.

I dont like X-men, I havent since the 80's. But if I go into their section and start bashing it and the others who enjoy it just because it makes me feel good, I will get banned...

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 08:50 PM

youre definantly an intresting read, I'll give you that. You seems to have an high sence of self worth, but at the end of the day, I could care less if you enjoy the book, hate the book or drop the book entirely. It doesnt effect the stories if you complain every night. I honestly wanted a real straight answer as to why you feel you need to do it... Youve not given that, youve flipped my words in a grand attempt to analyze me without analyzing yourself. You feel youve been clever, the only issue is at the end of the day im enjoying Marvels products and your having them steal the money from you.

Hopefully this complaining helps you on some level. Just know it wont help fix it.

]youre definantly an intresting read, I'll give you that.

lol. ok, since you gave me a semi compliment, ill actually stoop, and say it again.

- I know that joe q and pro BND peeps want me gone... to silence the critics, so to speak... so i stay.

- spidey is a character that i have enjoyed and read for decades. that said, i considered OMD / BND a slap in the face, especially with how marvel's braintrust acts towards us older fans regarding BND... 20 years of reading married spidey, just for them to tell us it never happened.. IS NOT OK.

- I have never been more vocal about my disgust for a comic, than now. WHY? that olaone should show how bad BND is in my opinion. I think its the worst thing marvel has ever done to such a flagship character, let alone any comic companies flagship character.

- If none of the reasons above satisfy you, it's as simple as this. I'm a passionate spidey fan, that wants pre-OMD spidey back. I hate this new 6 month old spidey, and I know what negative criticism does to a product. It definitely doesnt help.

- I want BND to utterly fail, and for Joe Q's smug smile to be wiped clean off his face with a nice spread of humble pie. if joe wasnt so anal towards our camp, i wouldnt wish such.. but hes an ass and a half, so i actually wish humbleness and humility on him.

-... i could go on, but i think I'm leaving soon.. according to my wife at least. so to be continued, cause somehow, i dont think my list is satisfactory to you...

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that i've given you the answer you wanted, can you at least see the point of my reverse questions towards you, and see that what you say about us at the BND camp.... can be directed right back at you and your camp?

:wink:

Mister Mets

06-24-2008, 08:53 PM

Hey mets, we all know of your bias towards BND... but how bout a thread for

" Six Months of defending BND " ??? :confused:If you want to start a "Six Months of defending BND" thread, I guess you could so. Just make sure it has a specific topic.

"Six months of trashing BND" goes with the complaint that there really isn't much to add to the BND debate after six months by the detractors.

Defenders at the very least could discuss the new stuff they like. But complainers (critics is the wrong word here) who haven't actually read BND/ stopped reading it a while back will be less able to have anything new to say on the subject.

Alan2099

06-24-2008, 09:01 PM

- I know that joe q and pro BND peeps want me gone... to silence the critics, so to speak... so i stay.
So basically you'rte just here to piss people off.

- I want BND to utterly fail, and for Joe Q's smug smile to be wiped clean off his face with a nice spread of humble pie. if joe wasnt so anal towards our camp, i wouldnt wish such.. but hes an ass and a half, so i actually wish humbleness and humility on him.

So because you think he's an ass, you're going out of your way to be an ass in his general direction and somehow hope that it will make him act better? You do realize when people constantly show up and insult you that the majority of those people getting insulted aren't going to show a lot of respect for their insulter, right?

So you don't like the storyline and feel insulted. Fair enough. So, WHY does it make the slightest bit of sense for you to put yourself in a position where you're going to be insulted again and again? Why keep showing up to a place and saying you don't like it when it's already obvious to anyone that gives half a damn that you don't like it? Why not go somewhere else? Why not talk about the things you DO like?

I used to love the Avengers, but I've felt like they've been absolutley horrible since disassembeld. You don't see me constantly posting in tghe AVengers forum about how terrible it all is.

Law of averages says there's going to be a point in any title you read that it does something you don't like, but nothing is focing you to stay and focus your attention on it. Do something you enjoy and give the title a break. Come back later. Maybe you're opinnion will have changed. Maybe the title will have changed.

For all the good you're doing right now, you're practically banging your head against a brick wal shouting for everybody that can hear you that you hate banging your head against that wall and insulting anybody that tells you to stop.

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 09:02 PM

If you want to start a "Six Months of defending BND" thread, I guess you could so. Just make sure it has a specific topic.

"Six months of trashing BND" goes with the complaint that there really isn't much to add to the BND debate after six months by the detractors.

Defenders at the very least could discuss the new stuff they like. But complainers (critics is the wrong word here) who haven't actually read BND/ stopped reading it a while back will be less able to have anything new to say on the subject.

your ignoring the CRITICS who have read it, and still hate BND. * points to self *

mets, your bias is clouding your judgement. some of us here on the other camp expect you to display some neutrality in certain areas, given your title and all.

"Six months of trashing BND" goes with the complaint that there really isn't much to add to the BND debate after six months by the detractors.

when you say things like that, you sound more than bias. it's more like arrogance. you might as well have said.

" Only Pro Bnd peeps can add to the debate, cause they say nice things., but ANTI-BND peeps can't. we say BAD things. " :rolleyes:

whatever. i've actually had enough of this bias crap today. i don't need to see it from the "neutral mod".

peace out peeps.

Cyclopsj316

06-24-2008, 09:04 PM

So basically you'rte just here to piss people off.

.

no, you basically took one line, and made that judgement yourself. This is why it's a waste of time to debate this with people like you. you hear what you wanna hear.

peace out. a gift for you. last word. enjoy it. :redface:

Matt Linton

06-24-2008, 09:12 PM

watch it, apparently, they are open minded, and that means they'll accept whatever crap marvel feeds em. .... it's just us "close minded" individuals that would actually have the nerve to bash a marvel storyline... :rolleyes:

Marvel's done stuff I don't like. The difference is, if I don't like something, I stop reading it AND I stop talking about it. There are plenty of great comics out there, and I'd rather spend my time reading and discussing those. If Marvel takes Spider-Man in a direction that I don't like, I'll stop reading it and stop discussing it, too.

It has nothing to do with being open-minded, it has to do with finding no benefit in spending time and energy being negative.

Alan2099

06-24-2008, 09:14 PM

no, you basically took one line, and made that judgement yourself.
Oh, I'm sorry. I made a judgement based on what you actually said instead of reading your mind though the internet and magically knowing exactly how you meant to say it. Sorry. My telepathy has been on the fritz latley.

This is why it's a waste of time to debate this with people like you. you hear what you wanna hear.
And thatt's why it's a waste of time to argue with people like you. Because in your own little minds, you never feel you're doing anything wrong, even when you're blatantly insulting and instigating people.

Heck, you even pulled that tired old, "you're a mod, you're not allowed to have any opinion" bit when I'm sure what you meant was, "you're not allowed to have an opinnion that disagrees with mine."

I think you might want to save a bit of that humbleness and humility that you're wishing on Joe for yourself. You could certainly use it.

yadadaimhollaing

06-24-2008, 09:54 PM

OK, that's fine...see what happens when you bite the hand that feeds you. Am I mad? Hell yeah, I'm mad. If I won the lottery tomorrow, I'd take out a full-page ad in the New York Times telling JQ what an ass he is and how much of a cluster-f*** BND is.
:biggrin:

While I do get tired of all the bnd bashing at times this statement was effing hilarious :biggrin:

BlackToe

06-24-2008, 10:11 PM

I dont even think JQ reads NY Times :confused:

ShaggyB

06-24-2008, 10:21 PM

While I do get tired of all the bnd bashing at times this statement was effing hilarious :biggrin:

agreed, man that would be the funniest waist of money ever..... now if he got a petition signed by 51,000 readers that dropped BND and took up say the entire NY post perhaps JQ would take notice instead of thinking some crazy dude has too much money.

Lol id buy the issue just to see the full page add though. (crosses fingers and hopes for color)

yadadaimhollaing

06-24-2008, 10:34 PM

agreed, man that would be the funniest waist of money ever..... now if he got a petition signed by 51,000 readers that dropped BND and took up say the entire NY post perhaps JQ would take notice instead of thinking some crazy dude has too much money.

Lol id buy the issue just to see the full page add though. (crosses fingers and hopes for color)

I'm not even laughing as a waste of money I'm laughing at the principle. One fan pissed off enough to spend money on 1 page just to vent for himelf his dislike. That's awesome as hell

If he won the lottery I'm sure hed spend enough on color :biggrin:

Matter of fact I think I'm gonna play the lottery too. That way I could sponsor his add, hell I'd add in at the bottom sponsored by a bnd supporter :evilgrin:

ShaggyB

06-24-2008, 10:37 PM

I'm not even laughing as a waste of money I'm laughing at the principle. One fan pissed off enough to spend money on 1 page just to vent for himelf his dislike. That's awesome as hell

If he won the lottery I'm sure hed spend enough on color :biggrin:

Matter of fact I think I'm gonna play the lottery too. That way I could sponsor his add, hell I'd add in at the bottom sponsored by a bnd supporter :evilgrin:

one up him, go with a billboard for a month. "Hey Joe, you suck" In time square would be funny as hell. Might as well get the most bang for your buck. I mean if we are going for crazy why not GO FOR CRAZY. lol

BlackToe

06-24-2008, 10:39 PM

I'm not even laughing as a waste of money I'm laughing at the principle. One fan pissed off enough to spend money on 1 page just to vent for himelf his dislike. That's awesome as hell

If he won the lottery I'm sure hed spend enough on color :biggrin:

There was one guy on the Marvel Spider-man boards that actually wanted people to give their money they saved on "boycotting" to him, so he can buy ad space in Marvel telling people to not buy Spider-man or any Marvel products.

Alan2099

06-24-2008, 11:12 PM

There was one guy on the Marvel Spider-man boards that actually wanted people to give their money they saved on "boycotting" to him, so he can buy ad space in Marvel telling people to not buy Spider-man or any Marvel products.
That's hilarious in a sad pathetic sort of way.

yadadaimhollaing

06-24-2008, 11:15 PM

one up him, go with a billboard for a month. "Hey Joe, you suck" In time square would be funny as hell. Might as well get the most bang for your buck. I mean if we are going for crazy why not GO FOR CRAZY. lol

If I won the lottery hell I could do both :biggrin:

BlackToe

06-24-2008, 11:53 PM

That's hilarious in a sad pathetic sort of way.

He thought it was airtight....

Mister Mets

06-25-2008, 06:03 AM

your ignoring the CRITICS who have read it, and still hate BND. * points to self *

mets, your bias is clouding your judgement. some of us here on the other camp expect you to display some neutrality in certain areas, given your title and all.

"Six months of trashing BND" goes with the complaint that there really isn't much to add to the BND debate after six months by the detractors.

when you say things like that, you sound more than bias. it's more like arrogance. you might as well have said.

" Only Pro Bnd peeps can add to the debate, cause they say nice things., but ANTI-BND peeps can't. we say BAD things. " :rolleyes:

whatever. i've actually had enough of this bias crap today. i don't need to see it from the "neutral mod".

peace out peeps.There seems to be a misunderstanding here.

Just because the thread title is "Six months of trashing BND" doesn't mean that you're not allowed to dispute the notion that there's little to add to the BND debate after six months. There were plenty who disagreed with the thread title "May Spider-Man sales (Yes, it's dropping again.)"

If you dispute the notion (which I never said was correct) that there isn't much for the detractors to add to the BND debate after six months, I welcome any legitimately new arguments against BND.

ZT4

06-25-2008, 06:28 AM

Stop complaining about it and just stop using the internet for a week, read ur comics read a book or something and come back and forget about and focus on the positive.

Halting free speech and expression on the internet...gotta love BND supporters.

Critics here do have positive things about BND...look at the recent discussion threads for Gale's latest run or Slott's superb MJ issue, Wells superb three issues, We don't act as if we focus primarily on the negatives..unlike the other lemmings, we dont lose sight of the negatives.

That there isn't much for the detractors to add to the BND debate after six months BND.

Considering how many times I've seen you reitterate the same excuses and reasons without additional layering, I'd wager you have no fresh perspective yourself, so this whole thing is hypocritical "Us vs Them" nonsense

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 06:49 AM

What does referring to people who like BND as "lemmings" add to the discussion?

ZT4

06-25-2008, 06:53 AM

What does referring to people who like BND as "lemmings" add to the discussion?

Because it's just as much a derogatory term as the countless ones the anti-change faction dish out to us on a fairly regular basis.

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 07:00 AM

And that makes name-calling okay somehow?

Mister Mets

06-25-2008, 07:06 AM

About 30 posts were deleted (usually for getting too personal.)

Another 30 or so posts (about one poster's new decision to read BND) were moved to the Generic Quesada's Spider-Man thread.

And when I'm finished with the post, I'm going to rename the thread "What else is there to add after Six months of civil discussion about the current direction of the Spider-Man books?"

Herr Mike

06-25-2008, 07:13 AM

Was there anything to add to begin with?

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 07:18 AM

Was there anything to add to begin with?

not really

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 07:21 AM

Tobias Drake

06-25-2008, 07:59 AM

Because it's just as much a derogatory term as the countless ones the anti-change faction dish out to us on a fairly regular basis.

"Well, he did it first!" ceased to be a justified excuse in second grade.

This whole topic is absurd to me. Love it or hate it, BND is here. Wasting half a year of your life seething with venomous hatred over a fictional story when you could be doing things you actually enjoy seems like a waste of both time and energy to me. If you don't like it, then move on and find something you do like.

No one is forcing you to read Spider-Man. Anti-BND fans have not been victimized in any way by Joe Quesada deciding he wants to run with a different angle than they are accustomed to. This is a mentality I see too much on this forum: "the editors and/or writers have made a decision I don't agree with, therefore it is a deliberate sleight against me, the victim, so have pity on me for how they have made me suffer." It's a pointless overexaggeration of the simple fact that you don't like the story.

You don't like the story. Some among you even go so far as to take personal offense at the editor for daring to tell a story you don't like. Yet you still linger here, clinging to your hate instead of moving on and doing something better and more entertaining with your lives. And when we try to point out the futility of such a thing, you proclaim that we are trying to

Halting free speech and expression on the internet...gotta love BND supporters.

Yet again playing the victim in order to try to make your side sympathetic.

If you really feel so hurt and offended by BND, then go. Hate is a powerful emotion, an extremely powerful emotion that requires a strong emotional investment in the content. It is ultimately a success when people hate a story so much that they continue to invest in it in order to further their hate. If you really want to punish Joe Q., hate is not the way to do it, because it still ties you to his work. To any writer, love it or hate it, it's still a profound emotional investment. The ultimate failure of a writer is not hate; it's indifference.

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 08:20 AM

"Well, he did it first!" ceased to be a justified excuse in second grade.

This whole topic is absurd to me. Love it or hate it, BND is here. Wasting half a year of your life seething with venomous hatred over a fictional story when you could be doing things you actually enjoy seems like a waste of both time and energy to me. If you don't like it, then move on and find something you do like.

No one is forcing you to read Spider-Man. Anti-BND fans have not been victimized in any way by Joe Quesada deciding he wants to run with a different angle than they are accustomed to. This is a mentality I see too much on this forum: "the editors and/or writers have made a decision I don't agree with, therefore it is a deliberate sleight against me, the victim, so have pity on me for how they have made me suffer." It's a pointless overexaggeration of the simple fact that you don't like the story.

You don't like the story. Some among you even go so far as to take personal offense at the editor for daring to tell a story you don't like. Yet you still linger here, clinging to your hate instead of moving on and doing something better and more entertaining with your lives. And when we try to point out the futility of such a thing, you proclaim that we are trying to

Yet again playing the victim in order to try to make your side sympathetic.

If you really feel so hurt and offended by BND, then go. Hate is a powerful emotion, an extremely powerful emotion that requires a strong emotional investment in the content. It is ultimately a success when people hate a story so much that they continue to invest in it in order to further their hate. If you really want to punish Joe Q., hate is not the way to do it, because it still ties you to his work. To any writer, love it or hate it, it's still a profound emotional investment. The ultimate failure of a writer is not hate; it's indifference.

It's only a waste of time in your opinion, not to us.

You're right, nobody is forcing us to read, just like no one is going to force us to stop criticing BND.

And nobody's playing the victim...playing the victim is just keeping your mouth shut and taking it.

ultimatespyder20

06-25-2008, 08:20 AM

people bash what they dont like because they hope to spread negative criticism about said product, so as to keep potential people from buying said product, so that there may be a decline in profit of said product, so as to hopefully see a return or difference in the current product.

other words, youll have to deal with the people who hate BND spiey, and want pre OMD spidey back.

Why spread negativity in comics? How does that help spread our medium? How does that attitude reflect what we read? Is it truely worth it in the end?

Alec

ultimatespyder20

06-25-2008, 08:22 AM

As fun as it is for you, it's just as unfun for us.

But books bagged down by continuity are not FUN for a majority of new readers.

Alec

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 08:26 AM

And nobody's playing the victim...playing the victim is just keeping your mouth shut and taking it.

No, that's not what the expression "playing the victim" means. It means "pretending to be a victim". What you're describing is actually being a victim.

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 08:27 AM

Why spread negativity in comics? How does that help spread our medium? How does that attitude reflect what we read? Is it truely worth it in the end?

Alec

It doesn't necessarily help anything but but why should someone else's enjoyment come at the sacrifice of my enjoyment?

Mister Mets

06-25-2008, 08:27 AM

Considering how many times I've seen you reitterate the same excuses and reasons without additional layering, I'd wager you have no fresh perspective yourself, so this whole thing is hypocritical "Us vs Them" nonsenseFair enough.

Though by reading Brand New Day, I am able to note when it works and can better address specific criticisms. Sfter Mary Jane's return in Amazing Spider-Man, I had a renewed appreciation for why Marvel shouldn't have answered the questions related to OMD just yet.

ultimatespyder20

06-25-2008, 08:31 AM

It doesn't necessarily help anything but but why should someone else's enjoyment come at the sacrifice of my enjoyment?

Because that sacrifice will help the enjoyment of a majority thrive instead of improving your personal enjoyment, and at the end of the day make the comic industry a better machine.

Alec

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 08:31 AM

It doesn't necessarily help anything but but why should someone else's enjoyment come at the sacrifice of my enjoyment?

Because that's how it always works. Nothing is going to be universally loved, praised, or even enjoyed. That's why variety in comics as a whole is such a good thing. If you or I don't like something in a particular book, there's probably something out there that we WILL like.

ultimatespyder20

06-25-2008, 08:35 AM

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 08:39 AM

Fair enough.

Though by reading Brand New Day, I am able to note when it works and can better address specific criticisms. Sfter Mary Jane's return in Amazing Spider-Man, I had a renewed appreciation for why Marvel shouldn't have answered the questions related to OMD just yet.

Mets, no offense intended but as biased against BND as I am, you are totally biased toward BND, so every statement yoyu make HAS to be taken with a grain of salt. And as far as noting when it works (not saying there haven't been times when you thought it didn't) but you are one of the biggest BND champions on the board.

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 08:42 AM

Because that sacrifice will help the enjoyment of a majority thrive instead of improving your personal enjoyment, and at the end of the day make the comic industry a better machine.

Alec

You just said it enjoyment. Marvel took something we enjoyed and turned it into something we dont enjoy. How do you expect us to react?

ultimatespyder20

06-25-2008, 08:45 AM

You just said it enjoyment. Marvel took something we enjoyed and turned it into something we dont enjoy. How do you expect us to react?

You can be pissed all you want, but at the end of the day it can be for the greater good. Just let it flow its course and sit back and watch instead of bashing it all the way.

Alec

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 08:46 AM

Because that's how it always works. Nothing is going to be universally loved, praised, or even enjoyed. That's why variety in comics as a whole is such a good thing. If you or I don't like something in a particular book, there's probably something out there that we WILL like.

Fine, that's the way it always worked...until now. I think alot of the Pro guys are so upset by the anti guys because we aren't going away. I think you guys thought the same thing that Marvel thought, after a few months, we'd all shut up and go away. But that ain't happening.

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 08:50 AM

You can be pissed all you want, but at the end of the day it can be for the greater good. Just let it flow its course and sit back and watch instead of bashing it all the way.

Alec

Yo may think it's for the greater good...but me, not so much. And I don't know about you but most people I know, when they get pissed, they don't suffer in silence.

ZT4

06-25-2008, 09:04 AM

We DID "sit back"...nothing happened, and barring a small sample of where this tripe COULD be going, we have had to wait six months and plenty of filler and drivel to get there.

That is alarmingly dumb. You want us to "sit back" and enjoy SIX MONTHS OF NOTHING? This is why comics are in the state theyve been since Dr. Light bummed Sue...I endured months of the most laughable use of a C-list supervillain and what did it get me? The most laughable use of a B-list superhero wife. The positives were viewable, but the negatives outweighed much of "Identity Crisis"

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 09:07 AM

Fine, that's the way it always worked...until now. I think alot of the Pro guys are so upset by the anti guys because we aren't going away. I think you guys thought the same thing that Marvel thought, after a few months, we'd all shut up and go away. But that ain't happening.

I'm not upset at all. Not understanding why someone is behaving in a certain way is not the same as being upset by it.

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 09:21 AM

I'm not upset at all. Not understanding why someone is behaving in a certain way is not the same as being upset by it.

Maybe not you so much but some others really seem "honked off".

EDIT: Understanding may not be something that you're going to able to do. I mean it's been 6 months and the fervor, for the most part, is still as high as it was in January. If you didn't understand then, you probably won't understand now.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 09:26 AM

It's only a waste of time in your opinion, not to us.

You're right, nobody is forcing us to read, just like no one is going to force us to stop criticing BND.

And nobody's playing the victim...playing the victim is just keeping your mouth shut and taking it.

If you gain nothing then it is a waist of time. For example if your goal is to have BND fail, posting here day in and day out has not worked. Slott still has October planned out.

People do things for a reason. If your reason is because you like to argue, then you are in the right place. If your reason is to insight change, you are preaching to people who cant do anything about it. Again your efforst would be better spent creating a thread inviting people to come to a protest in front of a comic con. (pick one you know JQ is at.) Thats time spent with the intention of finding like minded people to gather and VISIBLY protest where you have a chance to be heard and perhaps make some change. Here, you just spin your wheels and get madder as BND ticks on ignoring your "pain".

Playing victim is not just keeping your mouth shut. Playing victim is claiming you are a victim when you are not one.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 09:29 AM

It doesn't necessarily help anything but but why should someone else's enjoyment come at the sacrifice of my enjoyment?

Because thats life. The world doesnt revolve around you. Sometimes things you hate will be popular and bring people enjoyment.

EX: I cant stand baseball. I find it boring and slow. Id personally rather get a root canal than watch a game because they both bring me pain and baseball is the worse of the two (least i get pain meds on the RC.)

Does that mean that Baseball wont bring someone pleasure? Does the world series interupting my normal line up of tv shows victimize me? Likewise, does someones enjoyment of said series upset me?

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 09:32 AM

Fine, that's the way it always worked...until now. I think alot of the Pro guys are so upset by the anti guys because we aren't going away. I think you guys thought the same thing that Marvel thought, after a few months, we'd all shut up and go away. But that ain't happening.

nah, mostly like i told cyke... its because the anti guys present there position like its universal and Fact. Its opinion, its not shared by all and clearly Marvel will do what they want when they want to do it.

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 09:36 AM

Maybe not you so much but some others really seem "honked off".

EDIT: Understanding may not be something that you're going to able to do. I mean it's been 6 months and the fervor, for the most part, is still as high as it was in January. If you didn't understand then, you probably won't understand now.

That's the thing, though. Back in January I completely understood why folks were upset. I can understand why folks still aren't happy. It just goes back to the "moving on" thing, which isn't meant as an insult

It's like a relationship ending. Sure, you're going to be upset by it, especially if you're not the one who decided to end it. You might even try to get the relationship back at first. But after awhile you'll stop calling, stop thinking about it, and start looking for someone else.

With BND, those opposed to it have already made all of the impact they're ever going to make. They've stopped buying Amazing Spider-Man, they've let Marvel know, however indirectly, why they've stopped buying it, and that's it. I can't remember off-hand if it was you or Cyclops who said part of the reason you're still complaining is to keep the negative buzz going and drive down sales, but that's not really what happens. Brand New Day isn't universally hated, it's split pretty much right down the middle. If anything the likely response by those on the fence is going to be, "Hm, maybe I should see what all the fuss is about". Anyone already liking it isn't going to suddenly stop because of negative posts about it, and anyone not liking it isn't going to suddenly start because of positive posts.

As much as I disagree with him, and as much as he does still complain, I can respect the fact that ZT4 probably spends an equal amount of time boosting Spider-Girl, "Mr. and Mrs. Spider-Man", and Ultimate Spider-Man, because he does enjoy those.

yadadaimhollaing

06-25-2008, 09:44 AM

That is alarmingly dumb. You want us to "sit back" and enjoy SIX MONTHS OF NOTHING?

i dont know why erry lose end needs to be tied up in 6 months. personally im enjoying the whole start taking time. i hate when it seems these big shakeups only last a few months. take for example house of m. that big event doesnt really have any lasting effects on the avengers even though they were heavily involved. i dont like when it seems events have no staying power.

OMD ismonths down the line and the plot is still developing. sure i can understand being pissed off about weak villians but you cant say nothings happend. peter went back to working for the daily bugle. peter cause jjj to have a heart attack, jjj wife sells the bugle to baxter. peter becomes a paparazzi for the db and pisses off harry and almost loses his friendship. mary jane has been introduced, pete has a new girl after his affection, he also has a new apartment and new room mate. id say after 6 months thats quite a bit of plot development.

throughout this whole time weve also had a subplot about someone framing spiderman as a killer. we are yet to find out whos behind this.

im really enjoying the pacing of the story. even with the freak story being the weakest i still cant hate it because throughout these issues we get plot development

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 09:44 AM

That's the thing, though. Back in January I completely understood why folks were upset. I can understand why folks still aren't happy. It just goes back to the "moving on" thing, which isn't meant as an insult

It's like a relationship ending. Sure, you're going to be upset by it, especially if you're not the one who decided to end it. You might even try to get the relationship back at first. But after awhile you'll stop calling, stop thinking about it, and start looking for someone else.

With BND, those opposed to it have already made all of the impact they're ever going to make. They've stopped buying Amazing Spider-Man, they've let Marvel know, however indirectly, why they've stopped buying it, and that's it. I can't remember off-hand if it was you or Cyclops who said part of the reason you're still complaining is to keep the negative buzz going and drive down sales, but that's not really what happens. Brand New Day isn't universally hated, it's split pretty much right down the middle. If anything the likely response by those on the fence is going to be, "Hm, maybe I should see what all the fuss is about". Anyone already liking it isn't going to suddenly stop because of negative posts about it, and anyone not liking it isn't going to suddenly start because of positive posts.

As much as I disagree with him, and as much as he does still complain, I can respect the fact that he probably spends an equal amount of time boosting Spider-Girl, "Mr. and Mrs. Spider-Man", and Ultimate Spider-Man, because he does enjoy those.

good post. Its why you wont find people who dont like say ultimate spider-man posting in reviews of the issues. I can tell you i dont like Ultimate, Ive not liked any of them. I could routinely pick a part every issue of USpidey but why would i bother. Its not like i cant read something i do like. Its not like me thinking its rehash will make you think it is.... So other than arguing with people, what do i get out of bashing it?

Matt is right, At the 6 month point, most people know what BND is about, they are either onboard or not. Those on the fence cant be swayed by negative criticism to steer clear. It only makes you wonder why someone hates it and eventually generates a sale to find out why.

At some point Negative buzz works against those generating it...... A reaction is better than no reaction.

Besides most people make up there minds by themselves. Sure a friend telling you to check something out may get ou hooked on something, but it can also not.

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 09:50 AM

If you gain nothing then it is a waist of time. For example if your goal is to have BND fail, posting here day in and day out has not worked. Slott still has October planned out.

People do things for a reason. If your reason is because you like to argue, then you are in the right place. If your reason is to insight change, you are preaching to people who cant do anything about it. Again your efforst would be better spent creating a thread inviting people to come to a protest in front of a comic con. (pick one you know JQ is at.) Thats time spent with the intention of finding like minded people to gather and VISIBLY protest where you have a chance to be heard and perhaps make some change. Here, you just spin your wheels and get madder as BND ticks on ignoring your "pain".

Playing victim is not just keeping your mouth shut. Playing victim is claiming you are a victim when you are not one.

Whether we are or aren't getting anythiing out of it is a matter of perception. To you we aren't, to us we are.

You don't like baseball, that's fine but your opinion of it is no less valid and you're free to talk about your hatred of it til you're blue in the face.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 09:55 AM

Whether we are or aren't getting anythiing out of it is a matter of perception. To you we aren't, to us we are.

You don't like baseball, that's fine but your opinion of it is no less valid and you're free to talk about your hatred of it til you're blue in the face.

yes my opinion is less valid on baseball. You really dont get that. I cant give an impartial opinion on baseball. I hate it. If it ceased to exist tomorrow id be fine. If youd never heard of baseball and wanted an opinion on it, id be the last person youd want to talk to because my opinion is based on irrational hatred of the sport.

as to you getting something out of it.... do share, what do you gain by complaining about BND for 6 months?

-edit-
note: perception is reality, but there are two realities in every situation. Personal and Societal. Those whom perceive something to be a different way than others are still considered outside the norm of society (not saying you are delusional, just pointing out that just because one perceives something to be a certain way does not make it societies reality)

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 09:57 AM

Because thats life. The world doesnt revolve around you. Sometimes things you hate will be popular and bring people enjoyment.

EX: I cant stand baseball. I find it boring and slow. Id personally rather get a root canal than watch a game because they both bring me pain and baseball is the worse of the two (least i get pain meds on the RC.)

Does that mean that Baseball wont bring someone pleasure? Does the world series interupting my normal line up of tv shows victimize me? Likewise, does someones enjoyment of said series upset me?

That argument is a 2 way street. Yes, that is life and the world doesn't revolve around you either but that seems to be how you're trying to make the anti side feel. You enjoy BND...fine. We don't and there shouldn't be a limit to how we want to express our hatred.

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 09:59 AM

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 10:05 AM

But youu know it's not universal so why let it bother you.

The question really comes down to why do you post it as if it is universal truth? If you know its not just as i know its not, then why blatantly lie about it in your post?

Perhaps im just looking for a greater understanding of the human condition when i point out the inaccuracy of stating an opinion as fact. (who knows, i could be psychologist whom enjoys comics and is doing a study via forums.[Im not but for all you know i could be] )

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 10:06 AM

That's the thing, though. Back in January I completely understood why folks were upset. I can understand why folks still aren't happy. It just goes back to the "moving on" thing, which isn't meant as an insult

It's like a relationship ending. Sure, you're going to be upset by it, especially if you're not the one who decided to end it. You might even try to get the relationship back at first. But after awhile you'll stop calling, stop thinking about it, and start looking for someone else.

With BND, those opposed to it have already made all of the impact they're ever going to make. They've stopped buying Amazing Spider-Man, they've let Marvel know, however indirectly, why they've stopped buying it, and that's it. I can't remember off-hand if it was you or Cyclops who said part of the reason you're still complaining is to keep the negative buzz going and drive down sales, but that's not really what happens. Brand New Day isn't universally hated, it's split pretty much right down the middle. If anything the likely response by those on the fence is going to be, "Hm, maybe I should see what all the fuss is about". Anyone already liking it isn't going to suddenly stop because of negative posts about it, and anyone not liking it isn't going to suddenly start because of positive posts.

As much as I disagree with him, and as much as he does still complain, I can respect the fact that ZT4 probably spends an equal amount of time boosting Spider-Girl, "Mr. and Mrs. Spider-Man", and Ultimate Spider-Man, because he does enjoy those.

Then that's you, you might get over stuff faster than some. With your relationship example, some get over stuff faster than others. I don't think there is a magic formula for when you can move on. My marraige is breaking up after 12 years, time is the only thing that will heal all wounds, someone else can't tell you when you should get over it.

Mako

06-25-2008, 10:09 AM

Whether we are or aren't getting anythiing out of it is a matter of perception. To you we aren't, to us we are.

You don't like baseball, that's fine but your opinion of it is no less valid and you're free to talk about your hatred of it til you're blue in the face.

The question is: What are these boards for?
Are they a soapbox for people to try to be heard by Marvel? I don't think so.

I believe they're a place for people to come together, for fans to talk about the comics they've read and share their opinions on what is going on.

But if someone comes in and says the same angry rant over and over again, they're not really there to discuss the comics, they're just there to be an irritant, to derail the threads, and spread misery. At some point it moves beyond letting their voices be heard. At some point it's obvious that they're there to "piss in everyone else's cornflakes."

Once, twice, even ten times, you're letting your feelings be known. 6 months straight and you're doing it for the sole purpose of ruining the message board experience for those who enjoy discussing the title.

If you want to be heard by Marvel, write them an e-mail. If you want to discuss what you've read, go right ahead. If you want to whine about the same thing over and over, why bring it here while other fans are trying to stay on topic?

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 10:09 AM

yes my opinion is less valid on baseball. You really dont get that. I cant give an impartial opinion on baseball. I hate it. If it ceased to exist tomorrow id be fine. If youd never heard of baseball and wanted an opinion on it, id be the last person youd want to talk to because my opinion is based on irrational hatred of the sport.

as to you getting something out of it.... do share, what do you gain by complaining about BND for 6 months?

-edit-
note: perception is reality, but there are two realities in every situation. Personal and Societal. Those whom perceive something to be a different way than others are still considered outside the norm of society (not saying you are delusional, just pointing out that just because one perceives something to be a certain way does not make it societies reality)

If you've watched a game, why isn't you opinion valid?

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 10:09 AM

Then that's you, you might get over stuff faster than some. With your relationship example, some get over stuff faster than others. I don't think there is a magic formula for when you can move on. My marraige is breaking up after 12 years, time is the only thing that will heal all wounds, someone else can't tell you when you should get over it.

though they can tell you when you are lingering on it to the point of unhealthiness.

As to the marriage thing. Im truly sorry to hear that.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 10:14 AM

If you've watched a game, why isn't you opinion valid?

because its based on irrationality. No matter how great the game was, id hate it because its baseball. It could be the most exciting game ever and id still say baseball is boring.

The key is i Hate baseball for reasons that dont apply to every baseball game ever played.

Irrational is defined as:
1. without the faculty of reason; deprived of reason.
2. without or deprived of normal mental clarity or sound judgment.
3. not in accordance with reason; utterly illogical:

If I hate baseball to the point where a game can be the opposite of everything i hate about it, yet i still hate it (ie view the game as sucking) Then my opinion of baseball has drifted into the irrational zone. Thus its a worthless opinion. I know it, thats why i dont give opinions on it.

-edited-
bolded the definition that describes where my opinion on baseball comes from when its based on contempt and hatred of the sport.

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 10:21 AM

The question really comes down to why do you post it as if it is universal truth? If you know its not just as i know its not, then why blatantly lie about it in your post?

Perhaps im just looking for a greater understanding of the human condition when i point out the inaccuracy of stating an opinion as fact. (who knows, i could be psychologist whom enjoys comics and is doing a study via forums.[Im not but for all you know i could be] )

So are we supossed to post stuff that doesn't support our point of view?

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 10:25 AM

The question is: What are these boards for?
Are they a soapbox for people to try to be heard by Marvel? I don't think so.

I believe they're a place for people to come together, for fans to talk about the comics they've read and share their opinions on what is going on.

But if someone comes in and says the same angry rant over and over again, they're not really there to discuss the comics, they're just there to be an irritant, to derail the threads, and spread misery. At some point it moves beyond letting their voices be heard. At some point it's obvious that they're there to "piss in everyone else's cornflakes."

Once, twice, even ten times, you're letting your feelings be known. 6 months straight and you're doing it for the sole purpose of ruining the message board experience for those who enjoy discussing the title.

If you want to be heard by Marvel, write them an e-mail. If you want to discuss what you've read, go right ahead. If you want to whine about the same thing over and over, why bring it here while other fans are trying to stay on topic?

The boards are a free forum for discussion...good or bad.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 10:46 AM

So are we supossed to post stuff that doesn't support our point of view?

No, but to stretch facts to the point that they border on lies just to make them fit your point is no good either. There's a distinct difference between "spin" and a lie.

Example:

Fact: Sony has lost 3 million dollars on Ps3 over the course of 2 years

Spin: Sony has lost 3 million dollars on Ps3, but has achieved a victory in doing so in the high def market assuring that Blu-ray is the only True Hd format to choose from.

Lie: Sony has given its customers a 3 million dollar gift in the Ps3.

Each has a bit of truth in it. Even the lie. The fact is a fact because it cant be debated. Its on the financial reports. The spin puts that in a positive light. The Lie states that sony gave you a gift, when in fact it charged you.

If you have to twist the truth till its no longer true so that you can make your point, then you are better off not making the point as it will be picked apart and make you appear foolish.

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 10:52 AM

though they can tell you when you are lingering on it to the point of unhealthiness.

As to the marriage thing. Im truly sorry to hear that.

But don't you see how that can be viewed as offensive and kind of self-serving. Basically what you're saying is this:
"It's been 6 months, you guys should be over it by now, what you're doing now is just unhealthy."

Thanks for the sentiment, religion and friends are helping me through it. I'm just taking it one day at a time.

Tobias Drake

06-25-2008, 10:56 AM

I can't remember off-hand if it was you or Cyclops who said part of the reason you're still complaining is to keep the negative buzz going and drive down sales, but that's not really what happens. Brand New Day isn't universally hated, it's split pretty much right down the middle. If anything the likely response by those on the fence is going to be, "Hm, maybe I should see what all the fuss is about". Anyone already liking it isn't going to suddenly stop because of negative posts about it, and anyone not liking it isn't going to suddenly start because of positive posts.

This is actually a very good point. I got into Marvel comics because of the intense flow of negativity towards Iron Man during Civil War. So many people hated him and hated the direction that it made me curious to see what was going on, which led to me investing money towards my newfound enjoyment of the company's products.

Constant streams of hate do not hurt the company. On the contrary, by talking about it, by bringing it up repeatedly rather than just letting it drop, you grant Marvel free advertising and bring in more customers. The more time you spend hating them, the more money they make off your hate.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 11:21 AM

Thanks for the sentiment, religion and friends are helping me through it. I'm just taking it one day at a time.

thats truely the best advice anyone can give.. One day at a time, eventually it will be better. Good luck with everything that comes with that. Again sorry to hear about it.

ZT4

06-25-2008, 11:31 AM

As much as I disagree with him, and as much as he does still complain, I can respect the fact that ZT4 probably spends an equal amount of time boosting Spider-Girl, "Mr. and Mrs. Spider-Man", and Ultimate Spider-Man, because he does enjoy those.

Back when I started plugging those, the defendants got pretty jipped about it. I dont know why, maybe because, like the problems they still have, they dont want to feel what there enjoying isnt "legit" , and that there's options out there that are "legit". It took them a few months, but they realized my intention wasnt to say "This is the real Spidey", my intention was to point out things that had aspects of the "real spidey"...aka the completed jigsaw puzzle, with nothing missing. I've seen people who like BND point out that some things are missing, and that even things that were in BND dissapear now and then.

Slott knew what I was talking about, hence his "Your Spider-Man is Your Spider-Man" post on the crawlspace, which to me, is about the most respectful thing ANY Marvel writer has done to clear up the mess...because it says what Marvel didnt want to say to it's older audience: Find something else, whilst assuring BND readers what there enjoying is also "legit".

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 11:35 AM

But don't you see how that can be viewed as offensive and kind of self-serving. Basically what you're saying is this:
"It's been 6 months, you guys should be over it by now, what you're doing now is just unhealthy."

I can see how you wouldnt like to hear that but the issue is your goals.

At this point in time your goals of generating negative buzz should be over. Nightly commenting is no longer working in the way you intended it to.

Trying to get the status quo you preferred back is not ever going to work by posting here.

Likewise, when does the anti-crowd consider enough to be enough on nega-posting about BND? If i follow some of the thoughts addressed here, it seems you feel that the anti comments draw pro side comments, if so why comment... it just gets people talking and reading about BND, isnt that the opposite of the goal?

Most of us are trying to say that after 6 months youve done all you can here.... its time to reassess your methods to achieving your goal.

Most everyone whom is going to read BND is already reading it and most whom arent are already not. Those that are on the fence are either hitting the trades or waiting for the next hyped event to happen. Id argue that we are past the point where negative post would even spark curiosity. (That would have been last month when negative post included things like "it wasnt so bad" or "the best of this crap")

If its not 6 months when do you guys think the negative bashing has run its course?

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 11:40 AM

ZT4

06-25-2008, 11:42 AM

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 11:48 AM

It wont.

I know you'd love for it to end, but it wont...and you can either live with it, or tell people to shut up and not be heard. I doubt those making their voices heard dont care that they are being called "unhealthy".

they arent being called that, the fixation on it is being called that. Thats the difference between talking about a person and about an action. An action can be unhealthy or stupid or foolish..... while the person doing that action can be of perfect health, super intelligence and of sound mind.

And yeah I realize it will likely never end. Even if BND disappears some one will do nega-posting.

Guess my point is nega posting for negative posting sake seems stupid and a waist. IF you have goals its one thing, but if you dont its troll-ish.

Tobias Drake

06-25-2008, 12:24 PM

It wont.

I know you'd love for it to end, but it wont...and you can either live with it, or tell people to shut up and not be heard. I doubt those making their voices heard dont care that they are being called "unhealthy".

So thirty years from now, you STILL plan to make time to complain about Brand New Day on the internet? It isn't a question of "silencing detractors" like you seem to think it is. It's a question of where you get the spare time to waste like this.

I know I am a very busy man. My schedule certainly doesn't have room for me to spend every single evening complaining about season six of Smallville over and over and over again; there were aspects I didn't like when it happened, but that's over and past and I have more important things to care about and talk about. I don't know where you guys find the time to continue posting the same complaints you have for the past six months without ever finding something new to focus your attention on.

If you hate it so much, why do you still care so strongly that you let it be such a powerful aspect of your lives?

Cyclopsj316

06-25-2008, 12:36 PM

nah, mostly like i told cyke... its because the anti guys present there position like its universal and Fact. Its opinion, its not shared by all and clearly Marvel will do what they want when they want to do it.

wrong. marvel will not do what they want , when they want, because when the numbers drop low enough, they will be forced to change direction. Marvel wants to make money, correct? It's like I told you... clone saga is spideys greatest example of that.

if anyone post there opinions like it's universal and fact, it's you guys. supposedly, you guys are open minded, thats why you like BND. we are close minded because we hate it. yeah, that sounds universal to me . :rolleyes:

Cyclopsj316

06-25-2008, 12:39 PM

note: perception is reality, but there are two realities in every situation. Personal and Societal. Those whom perceive something to be a different way than others are still considered outside the norm of society (not saying you are delusional, just pointing out that just because one perceives something to be a certain way does not make it societies reality)

that's getting into the whole debate about whether or not truth is relative or absolute.

whether we agree or not, 1+1=2, not 3. Therefore, i don't believe truth is relative. We just don't agree on it, but someone is clearly wrong...

so clearly, the above quote refers to taste and preference, but not fact and truth. Just clearing that up...

Tobias Drake

06-25-2008, 12:42 PM

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 12:59 PM

that's getting into the whole debate about whether or not truth is relative or absolute.

whether we agree or not, 1+1=2, not 3. Therefore, i don't believe truth is relative. We just don't agree on it, but someone is clearly wrong...

so clearly, the above quote refers to taste and preference, but not fact and truth. Just clearing that up...

truth is relative to the beholder. 1+1=2 unless a person convinces themselves that the 1 being added is worth more to them than say 2 things being added. (ie 1x) This allows for a person to rationalize to themselves how 1+1x=3. Does that person then fall into societies rational of 1+1 or there own?

Math is cut and dry true enough, yet truth and the human condition are not.

Best example is war. Do you honestly think that one side believes themselves to be evil and wrong? Or do both sides believe themselves right?

How can they both be right?

Alan2099

06-25-2008, 01:03 PM

wrong. marvel will not do what they want , when they want, because when the numbers drop low enough, they will be forced to change direction.
They aren't forced to do anything. There have been plenty of examples of titles that have survived based more on what the people in charge wanted than what the fans wanted.

But let's suppose for a minute that you have a bit of a point. Suppose sales drop to where they are forced to change something. In most cases what the change is is getting a new creative team on the book, rather than alterning everything.

Now, let's go a bit further. Let's suppose that they are forced to change the direction the book is going in. Who's to say that you'll like the new change anymore than you like the current one? You may hate it worse, and there's always he posibility that even given the status quo you claim to want, you'll hate the way the people do it.

For the longest time, many of the SUperman writers hated the fact that Superman was married to Lois, but it wasn't something they could get rid of easily. Their "solution" was to write Lois as unappealing a character as possible.

So, suppose they keep changing Spider-man because sales get lower and lower. Their solution at that poinjt isn't likely to be to just keep changing im every few months until they hit the magical formula. There solution is more likely to let the title stagnate and focus their attention on other titles, as it's then become obvious to them that people don't like Spider-man anymore. I mean, if they did, his title would have been selling.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 01:06 PM

truth is relative to the beholder. 1+1=2 unless a person convinces themselves that the 1 being added is worth more to them than say 2 things being added. (ie 1x) This allows for a person to rationalize to themselves how 1+1x=3. Does that person then fall into societies rational of 1+1 or there own?

let me go one further on that. lets do apples

1 apple + 1 apple = 2 apples. Fair enough. Society accepts that as truth. but are all apples equal in quality? That is where the human element comes in.

1 apple + 1 apple that i think is going to be far juicer and much better than a regular apple /= 2 apples to me. It can = many different combinations of value.

Does that make Society agree? Most likely not. But does my personal worth of said apple = wrong, for me or just for everyone else?

This is the difference between Personal truth and what Society at large considers truth. Patterns that hold true for the individual do not always reflect what society holds as truth.

(this whole conversation came from Black saying that he perceives that he is getting something from negative posting, while others perceive that he is not.)

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 01:12 PM

This is what happens when there's no new issue of Amazing Spider-Man. :wink:

Alan2099

06-25-2008, 01:14 PM

(this whole conversation came from Black saying that he perceives that he is getting something from negative posting, while others perceive that he is not.)
Honestly, I'd treat black as a special case. If Black's marriage is falling apart, he just might be getting something out of it. Sometimes you just need a place to vent at things even if they aren't connected to the things that are really bothering you.

I hope that doesn't come across as being too personnal. I mean no offense by that and wish you the best, B. I will suggest that you might want to try focusing on the more positive things for a while though.

nester

06-25-2008, 01:14 PM

Six Months of Civil Debate about Amazing Spider-Man's current direction

I think part of the problem is that there’s this misconception that only the current direction, issue, etc. are worthy of discussion. As someone who has spent years enjoying discussions about characters from a video game and years enjoying discussions about a television show whose fandom I didn’t join until after the final episode aired, I don’t buy into that mind set.

For completely selfish reasons, I would rather those who liked the marriage to post about it and married Peter than continue posting about BND. I still think the marriage has lots of untapped potential, and would love to hear other people’s take on where Marvel could and should have gone with it. On the BND front, I’m just not the least bit interested.

Alan2099

06-25-2008, 01:19 PM

For completely selfish reasons, I would rather those who liked the marriage to post about it and married Peter than continue posting about BND. I still think the marriage has lots of untapped potential, and would love to hear other people’s take on where Marvel could and should have gone with it. On the BND front, I’m just not the least bit interested.
I can agree with that completey. I'd much rather hear people talking about what they do actually like in a title than what they don't.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 01:36 PM

I can agree with that completey. I'd much rather hear people talking about what they do actually like in a title than what they don't.

agreed. Im all for rights to protest, i just feel that if you want pepsi to stop clubbing baby seals that you shouldnt picket at the coke cola factory. Go to the source with demands and well thought out "attacks". You want results, and yes some times you have to kick the door in to get them. Its just the direction of the out cry that baffles me. Sure there is a chance Marvel reads forums, Hey they might even read this thread.... but why rely on chance when you want results. Proactive or Passive. Complaining here seems more like sitting back and taking it to me, perhaps its one step above just taking it as you are complaining.... But its not getting results. I thought that was the point.

I still say picket line at san diego comic-con would be much more effective than 6 months of complaints here. (More visible and actually having representatives of the company/creators in question confirmed to be there is a plus.) (of course being prepared for the cops to break it up is a bad note. Perhaps making sure you are on public grounds before you do it.)

black_spidey728

06-25-2008, 02:25 PM

Mets, is there any chance you can talk to CBR and find out what the heck is going on with the forum?

Its getting ridiculous. Database errors, double posts, cant connect to page are just becoming more and more common.

Oh, I thought it was just me. When I have been posting lately, it's a crapshoot as to whether or not the session is gonna time-out or something.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 02:31 PM

Oh, I thought it was just me. When I have been posting lately, it's a crapshoot as to whether or not the session is gonna time-out or something.

its something on CBR's server. I get Database error alot. And eblieve me, im on an excellent connections. This place doesnt go down, unless its to add functionality.

So its not just you.

ZT4

06-25-2008, 03:05 PM

The place has, ironicly, been like this for six months to me:cool:

Tobias Drake

06-25-2008, 03:13 PM

For completely selfish reasons, I would rather those who liked the marriage to post about it and married Peter than continue posting about BND. I still think the marriage has lots of untapped potential, and would love to hear other people’s take on where Marvel could and should have gone with it. On the BND front, I’m just not the least bit interested.

I have no problem with that. I just wish people wouldn't go into the thread for the latest issue that just came out and try to hijack that thread for it. It should have its own thread or threads.

The new issue thread should be about discussing the new issue. Not discussing what happened six months ago.

ShaggyB

06-25-2008, 03:28 PM

The place has, ironicly, been like this for six months to me:cool:

now that you mention it i did start noticing it in january..... ooo conspiracy.....

ZT4

06-25-2008, 03:28 PM

I loathe this new direction, it's out-of-server, and the uploading doesnt progress.

Alan2099

06-25-2008, 03:38 PM

The place has, ironicly, been like this for six months to me:cool:

Oh, and I suppose this is Brand New Day's fault too. :tongue: :wink:

Mister Mets

06-25-2008, 03:44 PM

I think part of the problem is that there’s this misconception that only the current direction, issue, etc. are worthy of discussion. As someone who has spent years enjoying discussions about characters from a video game and years enjoying discussions about a television show whose fandom I didn’t join until after the final episode aired, I don’t buy into that mind set.

For completely selfish reasons, I would rather those who liked the marriage to post about it and married Peter than continue posting about BND. I still think the marriage has lots of untapped potential, and would love to hear other people’s take on where Marvel could and should have gone with it. On the BND front, I’m just not the least bit interested.
If this is what you want, I encourage you to start a thread on the topic of the untapped potential of the marriage. Or to bump an older thread on a similar subject.

ZT4

06-25-2008, 03:45 PM

Oh, and I suppose this is Brand New Day's fault too. :tongue: :wink:

It's the modems, they dont have to explain it.

Hertz

06-25-2008, 03:47 PM

Oh, and I suppose this is Brand New Day's fault too. :tongue: :wink:

Like Shaggy said, it's a conspiracy.

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 04:19 PM

I loathe this new direction, it's out-of-server, and the uploading doesnt progress.

It's the modems, they dont have to explain it.

Okay, that was funny. :biggrin:

Cyclopsj316

06-25-2008, 05:46 PM

The question is: What are these boards for?
Are they a soapbox for people to try to be heard by Marvel? I don't think so.

I believe they're a place for people to come together, for fans to talk about the comics they've read and share their opinions on what is going on.

But if someone comes in and says the same angry rant over and over again, they're not really there to discuss the comics, they're just there to be an irritant, to derail the threads, and spread misery. At some point it moves beyond letting their voices be heard. At some point it's obvious that they're there to "piss in everyone else's cornflakes."

Once, twice, even ten times, you're letting your feelings be known. 6 months straight and you're doing it for the sole purpose of ruining the message board experience for those who enjoy discussing the title.

If you want to be heard by Marvel, write them an e-mail. If you want to discuss what you've read, go right ahead. If you want to whine about the same thing over and over, why bring it here while other fans are trying to stay on topic?

actually, happy fans arent the only fans.

while BND may suck for alot of us here, we are still spidey fans, and as such, if we still feel like BND sucks six months later, we have every right to posts such here, just like you still think 6 months later, its cool.

we have to put up with your posts - you have to put up with ours.

as childish as this saying sounds, it's actually true. " Everything you are saying goes right back to you"...

so in essence, Get off the high horse and deal. This forum isnt just for those who love BND.

Cyclopsj316

06-25-2008, 05:53 PM

truth is relative to the beholder. 1+1=2 unless a person convinces themselves that the 1 being added is worth more to them than say 2 things being added. (ie 1x) This allows for a person to rationalize to themselves how 1+1x=3. Does that person then fall into societies rational of 1+1 or there own?

Math is cut and dry true enough, yet truth and the human condition are not.

Best example is war. Do you honestly think that one side believes themselves to be evil and wrong? Or do both sides believe themselves right?

How can they both be right?

1+1 does not equal 3, ever. it is that persons BELIEF, however, it is still wrong, whether they agree or not. that is the definition of truth regarding facts.

you gotta separate the preference / opinion from the truth / fact.

no one can both be right, regarding truth / fact. someone is wrong, they just don't know who. For most people, there is a God that dictates what that truth is, and you will never know who was wrong / right, until the day you die. That is, of course, unless there is no God. Then in that case, for those who believe that, there is no ruling measure for good and evil, and thus... it is ok for someone to rape, while it is not ok for another to do the same thing.

See? There is a measuring stick for truth... now it's a question of where it originates... again, wether we agree or not. 1 +1 still equals 2...

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 05:53 PM

actually, happy fans arent the only fans.

while BND may suck for alot of us here, we are still spidey fans, and as such, if we still feel like BND sucks six months later, we have every right to posts such here, just like you still think 6 months later, its cool.

we have to put up with your posts - you have to put up with ours.

as childish as this saying sounds, it's actually true. " Everything you are saying goes right back to you"...

so in essence, Get off the high horse and deal. This forum isnt just for those who love BND.

If you're reading it and you think it sucks six months later, then yeah, fair enough to post an opinion. Not everyone is doing that, though. Some aren't reading it at all and are simply posting that it sucks.

Of course, if you think a book sucks for six months running (especially one that's had 18 issues by that point) it'd be fair to ask why someone would continue reading and commenting on it.

And do you really see no difference between someone enjoying something for six months and posting about it, and someone hating something for six months and posting about it?

Cyclopsj316

06-25-2008, 05:57 PM

They aren't forced to do anything. There have been plenty of examples of titles that have survived based more on what the people in charge wanted than what the fans wanted.

But let's suppose for a minute that you have a bit of a point. Suppose sales drop to where they are forced to change something. In most cases what the change is is getting a new creative team on the book, rather than alterning everything.

Now, let's go a bit further. Let's suppose that they are forced to change the direction the book is going in. Who's to say that you'll like the new change anymore than you like the current one? You may hate it worse, and there's always he posibility that even given the status quo you claim to want, you'll hate the way the people do it.

For the longest time, many of the SUperman writers hated the fact that Superman was married to Lois, but it wasn't something they could get rid of easily. Their "solution" was to write Lois as unappealing a character as possible.

So, suppose they keep changing Spider-man because sales get lower and lower. Their solution at that poinjt isn't likely to be to just keep changing im every few months until they hit the magical formula. There solution is more likely to let the title stagnate and focus their attention on other titles, as it's then become obvious to them that people don't like Spider-man anymore. I mean, if they did, his title would have been selling.

true, they may be stubborn, and instead of giving fans what they want, they will give them something different.

in the case of BND, my hope is that it will go the way of the clone saga, and fans will get what they want. Otherwise, we'd have to wait and see what new change comes in store, and see if its

1) worse than BND
2) If were able to put up with it, even if we dont get pre-OMD spidey back.

either way, at least BND goes away somewhat... again, thats the goal. If they can concede a bad idea, and give fans what they want like with the clone saga fiasco, then they can do it again... unless the NEW chief is a bit more stubborn.... then that will never happen as long as hes there in charge...

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 05:59 PM

true, they may be stubborn, and instead of giving fans what they want, they will give them something different.

in the case of BND, my hope is that it will go the way of the clone saga, and fans will get what they want. Otherwise, we'd have to wait and see what new change comes in store, and see if its

1) worse than BND
2) If were able to put up with it, even if we dont get pre-OMD spidey back.

either way, at least BND goes away somewhat... again, thats the goal. If they can concede a bad idea, and give fans what they want like with the clone saga fiasco, then they can do it again... unless the NEW chief is a bit more stubborn.... then that will never happen as long as hes there in charge...

Since you brought it up, I'm curious: what parts of BND do you dislike? Is it the OMD stuff? Harry being back? The marriage being gone? Continuity tweaks?

Cyclopsj316

06-25-2008, 06:00 PM

I can agree with that completey. I'd much rather hear people talking about what they do actually like in a title than what they don't.

unfortunately, that leads to talking about what people dont like.... because a poster will respond and say why that opinion is bad, and the originator will defend their post, and yadda--yaddya.... square one.

it's hopeless, so let's get used to it, and not pretend boards can be peachy...

Cyclopsj316

06-25-2008, 06:05 PM

If you're reading it and you think it sucks six months later, then yeah, fair enough to post an opinion. Not everyone is doing that, though. Some aren't reading it at all and are simply posting that it sucks.

Of course, if you think a book sucks for six months running (especially one that's had 18 issues by that point) it'd be fair to ask why someone would continue reading and commenting on it.

And do you really see no difference between someone enjoying something for six months and posting about it, and someone hating something for six months and posting about it?

- if someone is still upset that BND is atill around, they dont have to read it to post here. While i read it, I at least don't tell them to read it themselves in oreder to posts here. this isnt a "readers only" club. They don't like BND, and are still upset that it's still here. Fine. I have no problems hearing about how fans still feel 6 months later. I actually want to know how fans still feel. Pro-BND fans dont want to hear that. Oh wellZ.

- I already told you why I still read it, and how I am looking for a shred of hope that this mess will be undone, and how I am still curious as to how far Joey will go to ruin spidey....

- Yes, i see no difference. It's someone who STILL likes it versus someone who STILL hates it. Two sides of the same coin. passionate spidey fans. No need to make it anything more than it really is...

Cyclopsj316

06-25-2008, 06:16 PM

Since you brought it up, I'm curious: what parts of BND do you dislike? Is it the OMD stuff? Harry being back? The marriage being gone? Continuity tweaks?

you guessed them. duh ?

you forgot carr, freak, as well as the continuity thing getting worse by the month.

paper doll was cool, but that could be done with a married spidey, now cant it.

Matt Linton

06-25-2008, 06:20 PM

Cyclopsj316

06-25-2008, 06:23 PM

I'd be very surprised if all of those things were reversed even if sales continue to drop and Marvel back-pedals. I think at best you might see the Mephisto deal handled in some way, and maybe the marriage restored, but I'd bet that Spidey stays masked and his identity unknown, the powers from the Other and Disassembled stay gone, the supporting characters stick around, and Harry stays alive.

Oh, on that I agree. Joephisto doesnt seem humble enough to just give up like they did in the clone saga days. I expect he will try EVERY MOVE HE CAN, to retcon BND without returning the marriage. Somehow, i really think that he couldnt handle giving the marriage fans what they want. In fact.. i dont think he could handle it simply because this would have been his biggest marvel failure in many eyes...

again, what I think. :rolleyes: