The Titans franchise: how to make better

[Superboy Sr]

I have been a Titans fan since I was eight yrs old.(long time) and I hate the fact that fans think that the X-Universe is so much better than the Titans. So I have a few ideas on how to improve on the franchise:
1)Stop killing them off,since the first Crisis DC either ignores the team or just makes them cannon fodder.
2)More titles like Doom Patrol,Team Titans,and Young Justice or maybe an ongoing Challengers of the Beyond.
3)DC has an impressive multiverse let the readers see other versions of the Titans.
4) A Titans movie or animated series
5)Give Roy his own series
6)Bring Tempest back to lead his own team.
7)Bring back Kara to the Titans

Tell me your ideas

[K-DoG7p7]

1)Stop killing them off,since the first Crisis DC either ignores the team or just makes them cannon fodder.
QFT2)More titles like Doom Patrol,Team Titans,and Young Justice or maybe an ongoing Challengers of the Beyond. Last thing we need are more Ongoings with teams that already have a low profile..
3)DC has an impressive multiverse let the readers see other versions of the Titans. How.. ?4) A Titans movie or animated series Allready a Titans movie in the works..
5)Give Roy his own series I love Roy.. but OHH GOD NO!! if anything Mia.. atleast she has something that sets her apart from EVERY OTHER character in the DCU.. 6)Bring Tempest back to lead his own team. I agree with the first half.. but not the last part
7)Bring back Kara to the Titans She needs Supertime now.. let her bee alone for a while

[Shellhead]

One huge problem with the Teen Titans is that their age is the concept. That's fine at first. But eventually, young heroes create big problems in a shared setting.

If they remain perpetually young, then readers lose respect as the heroes continue to make the same immature mistakes, over and over again.

If they are allowed to age, even at a very slow rate compared to the readers, eventually those young heroes will grow old enough to raise questions about the older characters, whether heroes, villains or supporting cast. It would be nice if DC (and Marvel) could allow all the characters to age and gradually replace older heroes with younger heroes, but characters like Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne (and their human supporting casts) are just too popular.

For example, let's look at Roy Harper. He started out as a sidekick to Green Arrow as a teenager, judging by his membership in the original Teen Titans. Since then, he has obviously aged somewhat, working for the Feds, getting Cheshire pregnant and having a kid. That all probably happened in a span of no less than 6 to 10 years, and easily puts Roy at least in his mid-20s. So that means that Oliver Queen aka Green Arrow must also be 6 to 10 years older, and he wasn't exactly young to start with. How many more years can Roy grow without making Oliver seem like an old man?

[K-DoG7p7]

One huge problem with the Teen Titans is that their age is the concept. That's fine at first. But eventually, young heroes create big problems in a shared setting.

If they remain perpetually young, then readers lose respect as the heroes continue to make the same immature mistakes, over and over again.

If they are allowed to age, even at a very slow rate compared to the readers, eventually those young heroes will grow old enough to raise questions about the older characters, whether heroes, villains or supporting cast. It would be nice if DC (and Marvel) could allow all the characters to age and gradually replace older heroes with younger heroes, but characters like Clark Kent and Bruce Wayne (and their human supporting casts) are just too popular.

For example, let's look at Roy Harper. He started out as a sidekick to Green Arrow as a teenager, judging by his membership in the original Teen Titans. Since then, he has obviously aged somewhat, working for the Feds, getting Cheshire pregnant and having a kid. That all probably happened in a span of no less than 6 to 10 years, and easily puts Roy at least in his mid-20s. So that means that Oliver Queen aka Green Arrow must also be 6 to 10 years older, and he wasn't exactly young to start with. How many more years can Roy grow without making Oliver seem like an old man?

The Original Titans are in their mid 20's Green arrow is in his late 40's with the body of a dude in his late 30's ..(he got a new body when he was ressurected)
Thats fact..




And Babs is 27-29..

[David Atkins]

Personally, the 'age' problem doesn't bother me at all. Let Batman remain virtually frozen in time while raising nine or ten successive Robins. Just tell good stories while you're doing it, dammit.

[Ilash]

How to make Titans better?

Make it fun. Give us characters we could actually like. Scale down the angst, up the humour. Bring back Bart Allen as Impulse.

There. Alll better.

[Schornforce]

How to make Titans better?

Make it fun. Give us characters we could actually like. Scale down the angst, up the humour. Bring back Bart Allen as Impulse.

There. Alll better.

QFT X 1000,000

[Beast]

Bring back Bart Allen, Superboy, Pantha, and Baby Wildebeest. Huge improvement there.

[nj06]

Please bring back Superboy! And use him in a good way too. And I guess we can bring back Bart Allen for everyone else too lol. I thought the line-up between Robin, Wonder Girl, Bart, and Superboy was perfect. Add Kid Devil, Blue Beetle, Ms. Martian and Speedy (Mia), and it would be perfect.

Feel free to get rid of Ravager. She doesn't really impress me very much.

[Batman25JM]

I agree with the others, bring back Bart Allen (but as Kid Flash) and Superboy. Then have the team consist of Robin, Kid Flash, Superboy, Wonder Girl, Speedy, Ravager, and Kid Devil.

[Sir Tim Drake]

They should start treating Kory as an intelligent and interesting character, and not as a brainless sexpot. No Titans writer since Marv has been capable of writing Kory properly.

[Will.S]

Just can the title and start over either with a new line up or use a mix of the current with some new ones. And for God's sake stop hiring Judd Winick to do Teen Titans material, the guy is doing NOTHING for the books.

In fact I thought the book was really good from OYL until Johns left the title. Then it all sunk into mediocrity both from a writing standpoint and an artistic standpoint. Get the same creative team that's doing the Year One Titans to do them or bring back Tony Daniel.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Bring back Bart Allen, Superboy, Pantha, and Baby Wildebeest. Huge improvement there.

Keep Baby Wildebeest . I think Pantha , Bart and Conner should be brought back. I also think its a damn shame DC has a TITANS series and the Wildebeest's who gave them their biggest losses and challenges haven't been seen in years.

Its about time someone other than Judd Winick write the TITANS series and someone who has fresh ideas write TEEN TITANS .

[Beast]

Keep Baby Wildebeest . I think Pantha , Bart and Conner should be brought back. I also think its a damn shame DC has a TITANS series and the Wildebeest's who gave them their biggest losses and challenges haven't been seen in years.

Its about time someone other than Judd Winick write the TITANS series and someone who has fresh ideas write TEEN TITANS .
Monster! WIlde was a great character. Killing him in the way they did was craptastic and lame.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

Monster! WIlde was a great character. Killing him in the way they did was craptastic and lame.

I didn't shed a tear....I am a monster.... heh heh.

[jv2k]

Cancel TT, bring back Conner and Bart, give us back Young Justice.
Also smack Winick in the face for writing graduation day.

[d newton]

Bring back Bart Allen as Impulse.
You mean Bart as Kid Flash, don't you? :wink:

[Beast]

You mean Bart as Kid Flash, don't you? :wink:
No. Cause Kid Flash sucks. Bart was always better as Impulse.

[Ilash]

You mean Bart as Kid Flash, don't you? :wink:

No, I really, really, really don't. Impulse is a great, unique character, while Kid Flash was very quickly turning into Wally West Mark II.

I love most of what Geoff Johns writes but his treatment of Bart Allen was one of his few, very big mistakes.

[Schornforce]

You mean Bart as Kid Flash, don't you? :wink:

Kid Flash was bland as all get out and a complete turnaround from everything Bart was with no genuine feel of change.

I recall an interview where Johns said he just wanted 'a Kid Flash' in Titans.

Now, it's possible that was an editorial thing, but I don't know.

Impulse= unpredictable, scatterbrained, visual thinker, fun, acted like a little kid in a teenager's body

Kid Flash= bland, know it all, suddenly and miraculously got an attention span

It's like they forgot Bart was supposed to be, like 5 or something in actual years. His body was just aged to that of a teenager.

[COMIC GEEK]

dont scrap the issue where jericho comes back to the tower.


"oh wait to late"

[Darrell D.]

How to make it better.
I'll forgo the obvious 'writer who can write' and 'artist that knows anatomy', because, well, it's just obvious.

The problem is trying to capture the lightning in a bottle that was the Wolfman/Perez series back in the eighties. And that is the problem. Stop trying to recreate something and create something new.
These were the sidekicks of members of the JLA. So screw it, and just make it the second JLA book. Concentrate on story-driven plots, like Morrison did with his JLA run. Go crazy with the book, experiment. Make it fun, or is that now a dirty word?

[d newton]

No, I really, really, really don't. Impulse is a great, unique character, while Kid Flash was very quickly turning into Wally West Mark II.

I love most of what Geoff Johns writes but his treatment of Bart Allen was one of his few, very big mistakes.
Reread Teen Titans 7 (current series) - there was no mistake turning Bart from Impulse to Kid Flash.

[Johnny_Luck]

Cancel TT, bring back Conner and Bart, give us back Young Justice.
Also smack Winick in the face for writing graduation day.

TT needs progression, which means the kids need to grow up, mature, deal with darker things, and yeah they are going to go through anger and pression spurts, every teenager in life does, thats part of growing up. Geoff new what he was doing to make these characters so much better.

However rather than continue progression Cassie has her secret id back, and we basically went back to focusing on the young fun, not funny people like BB who treat life and hero work like a joke. at least Bart knew and acted like he knew what was out there and what he was dealing with while cracking jokes that were actually funny.

No. Cause Kid Flash sucks. Bart was always better as Impulse.

No he wasn't. John made him the first Flash I could actually enjoy. He was cool as impulse but under John became so much more.

What they need to do is have Kid Flash, Wondergirl, Robin, Ravager, Kid Devil and thats that on the team. Theres no need for BB and Miss Martian, they have yet to show they belong or deserve to be with the people on that team and have not served a purpose either.

[Schornforce]

My thing with Bart becoming Kid Flash and then Flash was that it wasn't done at all believably, IMO. He did a complete 360 over a span of a few issues and why? Because Donna was killed? I don't remember them being all that close, even when they were on the Titans earlier.

Also, Johns didn't acknowledge Bart (or Conner's) past books aside from maybe mentioning Max Mercury once or twice.

Ravager, Bart's first love? Gak.

[carabas]

Because Donna was killed?No, because Deathstroke pointed out to him how serious this game is by kneecapping him.

[Schornforce]

No, because Deathstroke pointed out to him how serious this game is by kneecapping him.

Ah. I must have missed that.

I still disagree with the 360 personality change-- after all one of Bart's clones died in Our Worlds at War and he felt the death as though part of him actually died. You'd think that would affect him more than kneecap blastin'.

[OzBat!]

I still maintain that Bart is off in the future somewhere, and this lame imposter we've had running around was one of his clones.

[Ilash]

Reread Teen Titans 7 (current series) - there was no mistake turning Bart from Impulse to Kid Flash.

Yes, there was. It was a ludicrously abrupt change, worse the change was detrimental to the character. Sorry, it was crap.

TT needs progression, which means the kids need to grow up, mature, deal with darker things, and yeah they are going to go through anger and pression spurts, every teenager in life does, thats part of growing up. Geoff new what he was doing to make these characters so much better.

I'm sorry but since when is making characters duller considered "progression"? While I really didn't like his treatment of Bart, Teen Titans is probably one of the weakest things he's written because of his treatment of these characters. It's not impossible to give us a good fun book, while giving us the more dramatic aspects of being a teenager as well. Blue Beetle, Ultimate Spider-man and what I've read of Invincible (which is admittedly only the first trade so far) do this absolutely brilliantly. Teen Titans pretty much never has.


No he wasn't. John made him the first Flash I could actually enjoy. He was cool as impulse but under John became so much more.

Nope, I disagree again. Bart Allen as Impulse was a very unique, brilliantly conceived character that was also fun and funny, Bart Allen as Kid Flash was a very pale imitation of Wally West with only slight nods towards what he was before. You call that "so much more", I call it character assassination - to the point that his recent death amounted to little more than a mercy killing of a once great character turned bland.

[titanfan]

Ravager, Bart's first love? Gak.

I think Ravager did come before Carol. Or at least his crush on Ravager was first.

It actually is a good time to be a Titans fan--DC seems like it's giving the Titans it's biggest push in awhile. We have Titans, Teen Titans, Tiny Titans, Teen Titans: Year One, Cyborg, and Raven. (Also Blue Beetle, Nightwing and Flash) Upcoming miniseries featuring the Terror Titans (meh), and Terra. DC is giving a lot of attention to the Titans characters right now--they definitely care.

The only thing that's missing now is quality. Mainly the quality of Teen Titans and Titans. Get better artists on both books and consider changing the writers as well....

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I admit I liked when Johns made Bart Allen "Kid Flash". But I feel DC rushed that progression and never let it pay off. They then rushed Bart and aged him quick for "Flash". Had they let Johns have a few years to make the Kid Flash thing seem like a natural progression...it may have been good.

Instead it all reads as rushed.


And as someone who had the 1-27 of Impulse....that was a great series. And the character of Bart Allen was just better as Impulse. Since he had a series like that and was all over the DCU in the 1990's in that series.

[Ilash]

I think Ravager did come before Carol. Or at least his crush on Ravager was first.

It actually is a good time to be a Titans fan--DC seems like it's giving the Titans it's biggest push in awhile. We have Titans, Teen Titans, Tiny Titans, Teen Titans: Year One, Cyborg, and Raven. (Also Blue Beetle, Nightwing and Flash) Upcoming miniseries featuring the Terror Titans (meh), and Terra. DC is giving a lot of attention to the Titans characters right now--they definitely care.

The only thing that's missing now is quality. Mainly the quality of Teen Titans and Titans. Get better artists on both books and consider changing the writers as well....

Yeah but that's a lot of quality to be missing. Not that some of those ancillary books aren't good (Year One, Blue Beetle) but the Titans series and from what I hear quite a few of those minis have been dire.

[nj06]

I think the Titans need better villains as well. Since OYL who have they had? The Brotherhood, Titans East, Titans of Tomorrow, and now the Terror Titans? They need more serious villains that don't follow a Titans theme that can make the heroes work for their victory.

Plus, I don't like the current line-up of the team. I think Superboy and Kid Flash need to be brought back. It wouldn't be bad to have Speedy there either.

[Johnny_Luck]

The only thing that's missing now is quality. Mainly the quality of Teen Titans and Titans. Get better artists on both books and consider changing the writers as well....


What????


Eddy Barrows is a godly artist whose the best thing for any current titans title period. Mckone and Tony were very solid and Eddy is following in their footsteps of great artwork

Only the Titans title has art problems and once Ian churchill comes back aboard the title will be back with one of dcs best.

[Johnny_Luck]

I'm sorry but since when is making characters duller considered "progression"? While I really didn't like his treatment of Bart, Teen Titans is probably one of the weakest things he's written because of his treatment of these characters. It's not impossible to give us a good fun book, while giving us the more dramatic aspects of being a teenager as well. Blue Beetle, Ultimate Spider-man and what I've read of Invincible (which is admittedly only the first trade so far) do this absolutely brilliantly. Teen Titans pretty much never has.

Making DC have a fun, funny likable flash, in Kid Flash, having the sequences like with Deathstroke and the future stuff, Making Superboy a likable character for the first timever, and making Cassie stronger and more believable as a hero. I don't see how he made them dull at all.

Geoffs titans run was 46 issues long, her wrote 44 of them, 42 of them at worst were extremely solid and very fun books.

Not to mention the idea that if its not goofy fun teenagers it sucks is very irratating. It is why I am glad YJ is gone. People cannot get over the fact that in reality like in geoffs titans are the most realistic ones. as people grow older, not only does maturity kick in, there less time for relaxing and fun, more adult things happen and kids go through depression, dealing with death, and things sometimes get darker. (its not all cracking jokes and skipping in the park) Keeping YJ around would have made it so unrealistic based on how they would probably just laugh stuff off rather than deal with it the normal ways many teenagers do.

Teen Titans was Progression because their reactions and their situations where based off of how someone who was growing up, aging and dealing with the things that come with later life would.


P.S.

I been a spider-man reader since I started reading comics over 17 years ago and cannot stand Ultimate Universe Spidey, he became a joke in that series, it turns it situations into a comedy show rather than making it even attempt to play off as semi believable and how they actual treat life based on how people would really be acting, how spider-man would really be acting is horrid. Not to mention how they pretty much destroy the look, feel, credibility and entertainment of all spider-mans villains sucks.

Also BB on this team since joining and in the few issues of read of his book was never once funny nor is he as likable as his cult following seems to want to believe he is.


Nope, I disagree again. Bart Allen as Impulse was a very unique, brilliantly conceived character that was also fun and funny, Bart Allen as Kid Flash was a very pale imitation of Wally West with only slight nods towards what he was before. You call that "so much more", I call it character assassination - to the point that his recent death amounted to little more than a mercy killing of a once great character turned bland.


I hate Wally West, always have always will and under Johns Kid Flash was nothing like him, he was actually a cool, funny and enjoyable person to have on the team, something Eddie should be now, rather than trying to force an unfunny pain like BB down our throats.

[d newton]

Yes, there was. It was a ludicrously abrupt change. Worse, the change was detrimental to the character.
Please provide some examples of how Bart becoming Kid Flash was ludicrous?

[Schornforce]

Please provide some examples of how Bart becoming Kid Flash was ludicrous?

1. Bart's actual age is much, much younger. His body was hyper-aging-- when he was two years old, he looked twelve. Thanks to Flash, his hypermetabolism ended, but Bart's actual age remained the same.

2. He was raised in a VR world and as such developed a lot of his impulsive tendencies there. It's almost hard-wired into his personality. His thinking was very visual and oftentimes, quite confused. Kid Flash was a 360 degree turnaround from that with no accidental relapses or outbursts of impulsiveness. Hardly 'realistic' in terms of maturity.

3. While Impulse (even after the events of Our Worlds at War) remembered and used his Impulse cloning abilities, as Kid Flash, they were never used or referred to.

4. One of Bart's clones was killed in Our Worlds at War, causing Bart to slow things down and come to terms with his own mortality, since when his clone died, part of Bart died as well. Yet, it was a kneecap shooting that somehow was SO prevalent to Bart that he just suddenly gains an attention span and becomes mature.

5. Bart did mature in his own title as well (admittedly, not so much in Young Justice- aside from the OWAW incident), but his maturing was far more gradual and seemed much less forced than what Johns did to him in Titans.

6. When Johns turned Impulse into Kid Flash, the character had his history pretty much disregarded. Carol and Preston were NEVER mentioned, despite being two of Bart's closest friends. Max was mentioned only in passing although Future Bart could communicate with Max. Bart's mom, Meloni Thawne MAY have been mentioned once or twice. It was like when he became Kid Flash, Manchester, Alabama never happened which was insulting to fans of the character.

7. Bart has gone under the guise of Kid Flash once before. I'm not adverse to a name/costume change as Bart had respect (although usually not shown) for Wally and a great reverence for his Grandpa Barry. It's the ridiculously abrupt personality change that accompanied it and the complete disregard for any history deemed 'silly' or God forbid, 'fun.'

8. I highly disagree that Johns' Kid Flash was likeable or fun. He seemed grossly one dimensional. I'll discount the Ravager bit, since I don't believe I have all of the Titans issues when Impulse was on the team (I believe, before his solo book) and it's possible he met her way back then. IMO, it cheapened the character and made him stand out far less among the likes of Wally, Jay, and Barry. Yes, there were probably slight differences, but nothing as fresh as when Bart was Impulse.

9. I'd like someone to tell me specifically why they feel that Kid Flash was more interesting than Bart. I believe this was said in an interview with Geoff Johns, that either Johns or editorial or both just wanted 'a Kid Flash' on the Titans to go with the JLA-ish superstar roster. Whether or not that interview is true, it seems to me that that was the case, given Bart's abrupt change, tossing out his history and past friends, and completely overhauling his personality, his way of thinking, and his methods.

10. There was no great personal insight to Bart's personality change. Perhaps a few lines here and there, but Johns never really gets you inside Bart's head and lets you see exactly why he made this particular change. It was treated almost unimportantly to get Bart from point A to point B so he'd be ready to get to point C when he becomes the new Flash.

[d newton]

4. One of Bart's clones was killed in Our Worlds at War, causing Bart to slow things down and come to terms with his own mortality, since when his clone died, part of Bart died as well.
By clones - you mean the Deux Ex Machina scouts, don't you?

7. Bart has gone under the guise of Kid Flash once before.
If you're referring to World Without Young Justice, that was an alternalte universe storyline.

8. I highly disagree that Johns' Kid Flash was likeable or fun. He seemed grossly one dimensional.
So you missed the scene where Bart, Conner & Tim are in the library togther?
:frown:

[Ilash]

1. Bart's actual age is much, much younger. His body was hyper-aging-- when he was two years old, he looked twelve. Thanks to Flash, his hypermetabolism ended, but Bart's actual age remained the same.

2. He was raised in a VR world and as such developed a lot of his impulsive tendencies there. It's almost hard-wired into his personality. His thinking was very visual and oftentimes, quite confused. Kid Flash was a 360 degree turnaround from that with no accidental relapses or outbursts of impulsiveness. Hardly 'realistic' in terms of maturity.

3. While Impulse (even after the events of Our Worlds at War) remembered and used his Impulse cloning abilities, as Kid Flash, they were never used or referred to.

4. One of Bart's clones was killed in Our Worlds at War, causing Bart to slow things down and come to terms with his own mortality, since when his clone died, part of Bart died as well. Yet, it was a kneecap shooting that somehow was SO prevalent to Bart that he just suddenly gains an attention span and becomes mature.

5. Bart did mature in his own title as well (admittedly, not so much in Young Justice- aside from the OWAW incident), but his maturing was far more gradual and seemed much less forced than what Johns did to him in Titans.

6. When Johns turned Impulse into Kid Flash, the character had his history pretty much disregarded. Carol and Preston were NEVER mentioned, despite being two of Bart's closest friends. Max was mentioned only in passing although Future Bart could communicate with Max. Bart's mom, Meloni Thawne MAY have been mentioned once or twice. It was like when he became Kid Flash, Manchester, Alabama never happened which was insulting to fans of the character.

7. Bart has gone under the guise of Kid Flash once before. I'm not adverse to a name/costume change as Bart had respect (although usually not shown) for Wally and a great reverence for his Grandpa Barry. It's the ridiculously abrupt personality change that accompanied it and the complete disregard for any history deemed 'silly' or God forbid, 'fun.'

8. I highly disagree that Johns' Kid Flash was likeable or fun. He seemed grossly one dimensional. I'll discount the Ravager bit, since I don't believe I have all of the Titans issues when Impulse was on the team (I believe, before his solo book) and it's possible he met her way back then. IMO, it cheapened the character and made him stand out far less among the likes of Wally, Jay, and Barry. Yes, there were probably slight differences, but nothing as fresh as when Bart was Impulse.

9. I'd like someone to tell me specifically why they feel that Kid Flash was more interesting than Bart. I believe this was said in an interview with Geoff Johns, that either Johns or editorial or both just wanted 'a Kid Flash' on the Titans to go with the JLA-ish superstar roster. Whether or not that interview is true, it seems to me that that was the case, given Bart's abrupt change, tossing out his history and past friends, and completely overhauling his personality, his way of thinking, and his methods.

10. There was no great personal insight to Bart's personality change. Perhaps a few lines here and there, but Johns never really gets you inside Bart's head and lets you see exactly why he made this particular change. It was treated almost unimportantly to get Bart from point A to point B so he'd be ready to get to point C when he becomes the new Flash.

Thank you. This is exactly right.

[jackdaw53]

Marvel have knocked out two good teen team series (Runaways and Young Avengers) by getting darn good writers to create teams from scratch using new characters. I found both to be more enjoyable than any recent Teen Titans material. All sorts of reasons no doubt (maybe my bad taste if you all disagree with me)... but I do think that with teen teams it helps if the characters are fresh.

So why doesn't DC try this route? Is it part of the DC ethos not to create any new characters nowadays? Are existing DC fans less willing to give new characters a chance than Marvel fans?

[Schornforce]

By clones - you mean the Deux Ex Machina scouts, don't you?

Yup. Love them or hate them, they were an established part of Impulse's history. At least they could have done a storyline or part of a storyline or ANYTHING to explain that power away when it was used in both his solo title and Young Justice frequently.


If you're referring to World Without Young Justice, that was an alternalte universe storyline.

Yeah, I think so. It's the one where the kid who once was posessed by Bedlam kidnapped Bart and used him in his plans to alter reality. I know that it's an alternate universe deal, but Bart remained the same DCU Bart throughout, IIRC, as he was the lynchpin of the kid's plans.


So you missed the scene where Bart, Conner & Tim are in the library togther?
:frown:

I may have seen it, but it didn't make an impression on me.

[titanfan]

So why doesn't DC try this route? Is it part of the DC ethos not to create any new characters nowadays? Are existing DC fans less willing to give new characters a chance than Marvel fans?

The Teen Titans roster now is pretty much all new characters. Only Robin and Wonder Girl are really established heroes on the roster and Robin is about to leave the book as a result of events in Batman.

[ashez2ashes]

Allready a Titans movie in the works..

I thought that fell through?

[jackdaw53]

The Teen Titans roster now is pretty much all new characters. Only Robin and Wonder Girl are really established heroes on the roster and Robin is about to leave the book as a result of events in Batman.

Can't trust DC nowadays. I mean, just because I don't read a series for a couple of years, they go and change the characters to make my postings even dafter than usual.

Must admit didn't even realize Sean McKeever was writing it now. Assume its the same guy that did the Inhumans mini series for Marvel years ago? Liked that so might try to pick up a current TT trade sometime.

[Zero Hunter]

I have loved alot of McKeevers work but dropped Teen Titans about 3 months ago. It is just not a good book. I used to love this book, but McKeever has just not been a good fit at all on it, and the book really seems to have no direction anymore.

The book started to go downhill with the rehash of the Titans Tommorow story and just got worse and worse. I hear people saying it is getting better now, but frankly I just don't think I care enough to try it again. At least not untill a new writer comes on who actully has a solid idea of where he wants to take the book.

[jv2k]

TT needs progression, which means the kids need to grow up, mature, deal with darker things, and yeah they are going to go through anger and pression spurts, every teenager in life does, thats part of growing up. Geoff new what he was doing to make these characters so much better.

The YJ crew did deal with darker things before:

Tim doesn't even need to be mentioned.

Bart had to deal with Max Mercury's death as well as the death of one of his clones.

Kon had to deal with the death of a lot of his Cadmus clone friends.

I don't remember if Cassie went through anything big, but she went through huge amounts of character development within the book.

Empress had her parents killed(sure they came back but she still had to cope with their death).

Cissie had to deal with growing out of her mothers shadows and the murder of a close friend(the school guidance counselor).

Secret was essentially a ghost/embodiment of death that was brutally murdered by her brother.

This of course is also ignoring the fast that most of the cast was captured on apocalypse and and tortured.

Sounds to me like you've never read Young Justice or about most of the Young Justice cast before TT. TT was not their first taste of grown up world.


However rather than continue progression Cassie has her secret id back


Funny thing is Cassie went through way more character development in YJ than she did in TT. In YJ Cassie went from an awkward looking, timid girl, with a crush on Superboy to a confident team leader in a relationship with superboy. Then TT came along and Johns turned Cassie into any generic angsty rebellious teen girl. I'm surprised that there wasn't an issue where Cass got into a fight with her mom because the phone bill was too long.

That isn't to say that YJ didn't have any cookie cutter teen stuff, but Peter David kept his characters likable while doing it.


No he wasn't. John made him the first Flash I could actually enjoy. He was cool as impulse but under John became so much more.

How much flash have you actually read?

Now I'm not in the camp that thinks Kid Flash was totally bland. He still had a personality and would still get in over his head at times(at least in TT he was, in the Flash books he turned into Jay Garricks bland sidekick). That said he was more fun as impulse and the whole shift in character seemed completely contrived as it wasn't the first time Bart has ever felt his mortality or felt bad.

[jv2k]

Not to mention the idea that if its not goofy fun teenagers it sucks is very irratating. It is why I am glad YJ is gone. People cannot get over the fact that in reality like in geoffs titans are the most realistic ones. as people grow older, not only does maturity kick in, there less time for relaxing and fun, more adult things happen and kids go through depression, dealing with death, and things sometimes get darker. (its not all cracking jokes and skipping in the park) Keeping YJ around would have made it so unrealistic based on how they would probably just laugh stuff off rather than deal with it the normal ways many teenagers do.

No it isn't that teenage heroes HAVE to be fun, it's just that YJ was a much better book than TT.

[Johnny_Luck]

No it isn't that teenage heroes HAVE to be fun, it's just that YJ was a much better book than TT.

I strongly, strongly disagree.

I think YJ is one of the most overrated series of DC history. Not that it isn't good, but its true hardcore fans seem to overrate and exgarrate everything done to characters in the book. I also seem to think based on how YJ fans act that they cannot get past the needed character changes John had to make as they went from young teens to middle and late teens.They seem to just trash the series because its not the David version they had been reading for a while. Its time to move forward, not be stuck in the past.

[Jack Zodiac]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha !

Sorry, but praising Johns and then spewing "it's time to move forward, not be stuck in the past" is downright mother!@#$in' hilarious.

[josh straightedge]

Roy has a good enough following. You'd think they'd try and test the waters with an ongoing or even maybe a min-series. Even a one-shot would be nice. There's a lot of untapped potential there.

As far as putting out another Doom Patrol series, they just don't seem to work. It's too bad, I'm a fan of DP but they always get cancelled.

[Beast]

I strongly, strongly disagree.

I think YJ is one of the most overrated series of DC history. Not that it isn't good, but its true hardcore fans seem to overrate and exgarrate everything done to characters in the book. I also seem to think based on how YJ fans act that they cannot get past the needed character changes John had to make as they went from young teens to middle and late teens.They seem to just trash the series because its not the David version they had been reading for a while. Its time to move forward, not be stuck in the past.
No. They're critical of the current series because they're pretty much awful.

Especially Winick's Titans. That's just horrible.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

No. They're critical of the current series because they're pretty much awful.

Especially Winick's Titans. That's just horrible.

When they scrap one of the issues they solicated months ago you can tell its pretty damn bad.

[jv2k]

I strongly, strongly disagree.

I think YJ is one of the most overrated series of DC history. Not that it isn't good, but its true hardcore fans seem to overrate and exgarrate everything done to characters in the book.
.
You clearly haven't even read YJ so I don't know how you're one to judge the series.


I also seem to think based on how YJ fans act that they cannot get past the needed character changes John had to make as they went from young teens to middle and late teens.

You've yet to bring up anything that made the TT group any more "mature" than in YJ. As you say many of the changes were needless.

Tim was the same because he's Tim.
Kon got extra angsty because he found out he had two daddies.

Cassie turned into a cookie cutter teenage girl complete with angst and rebellion(in fact her only good appearance recently was in her mini where she wasn't portrayed as an unlikeable angst queen)

Impulse got toned down, which is the only change that could have been seen as maturing, but it happened too quickly.

Oh and the only reason they were in that position was because it was editorially mandated that Winnick disband the Titans and YJ. So Winnick had to pretend that Tim, Dick, Kon, Empress, and Bart had never dealt with any loss before and throw them into an angst ridden spiral.



They seem to just trash the series because its not the David version they had been reading for a while. Its time to move forward, not be stuck in the past
Personally I enjoyed Johns' TT, but I would have much preferred it if YJ never ended. Besides the fact that Johns' would have never involved them in IC and Bart and Kon would still be alive, I just prefer the tone. YJ stories were fun. TT stories are nothing but ways to inject more drama into these characters.

I'd also like to mention that Johns left the book at the worst possible time. I mean we get huge status quo changes, and an unstable cast. You can't blame the writers that followed him for doing such a mediocre job.


I also seem to think based on how YJ fans act that they cannot get past the needed character changes John had to make as they went from young teens to middle and late teens.

You keep saying essentially that YJ was the middleschool years and TT is high school, but you just aren't supporting it. The only thing High School about TT was that Kon and Cassie slept together. Visually you could say the art made the characters look older, but Impulse was the only character that you could have claimed matured. Instead of touting the fact that everyone is so much older and more mature, how about you prove it.

If anything the opposite happened. Johns ignored years of character development and interaction so he could do his own thing.

[d newton]

You've yet to bring up anything that made the TT group any more "mature" than in YJ. As you say many of the changes were needless.
And you miss the point entirely. :rolleyes:

You keep saying essentially that YJ was the middleschool years and TT is high school, but you just aren't supporting it. The only thing High School about TT was that Kon and Cassie slept together. Visually you could say the art made the characters look older, but Impulse was the only character that you could have claimed matured. Instead of touting the fact that everyone is so much older and more mature, how about you prove it.
He has. :wink:

[Superboy Sr]

IMHO, Bart is great as Kid Flash & Conner is Superboy now for the changes since Doom Patrol is going to original team(mistake) the Titans should be Cyborg,Vox,Grace,Starfire, Miss Martian,Beast Boy,and Thunder.
Teen Titans: Wonder girl,Superboy,Kid Flash,Ravager,Arrowette,Frankenstein Jr,and Red Robin.
Team Titans: Jason Todd,Connor Hawke,Mirage,Argent,Joto, Bombshell and Redwing. (bring her back)

[Free-Man]

I keep saying this, but I'd want to create the most commercial roster possible:

Red Robin/Robin
Supergirl
Static
Kid Flash
Blue Beetle
Wonder Girl
MAYBE Aquagirl.

The best of the best. With the exception of Aquagirl, each has had their own book. I only hesitate to include Kon because Supergirl has him beat in terms of public knowledge.

[galactica]

I keep saying this, but I'd want to create the most commercial roster possible:

Red Robin/Robin
Supergirl
Static
Kid Flash
Blue Beetle
Wonder Girl
MAYBE Aquagirl.

The best of the best. With the exception of Aquagirl, each has had their own book. I only hesitate to include Kon because Supergirl has him beat in terms of public knowledge.

Tried and True. Though I would add a few wild cards like Natasha Irons. You have the big guns and you add 2-3 lower tier characters the writer can really dig into.

[shawn739]

they should keep team as it is but loose Aquagirl, Bombshell, and Miss Martian. we know there going to kill Eddie but the can bring him back as a real devil when the go up against brother blood. Tim, Conner, and Bart should have their own team. with Conner and Bart dieing and Tim having everyone he loves die. they know a lot of pain. that and YJ was better when it was just those three

[AdamYJ]

I think YJ is one of the most overrated series of DC history.

Funny. That's how I feel about Wolfman and Perez's New Teen Titans.

Okay, first of all I'm going to say that Titans in most forms is a book I have not really enjoyed. However, I will say that it's a book that I always want to like but it never seems to let me. There are some exceptions and corollaries. I loved the '60s Teen Titans. I loved Young Justice. I loved the Teen Titans cartoon. I loved Teen Titans: Year One. I liked the Jurgens Titans. He created some nice characters, but the stories were lacking. As for New Teen Titans. As I said, kind of overrated. An average series for the '80s. Not spectacular. The current series? Well, that's where it really gets hard.

Now, maybe it's just my own leanings and comic book tastes. However, I'm going to echo something a lot of others said or at least implied. The book needs to stop taking itself so damn seriously. I don't care if it's more realistic or mature or any of that. This is superhero comics. You can check seriousness and maturity at the door. The book and its characters seem to just be buried under piles and piles of angst. It's such that in the past when I've tried to read this book it just bummed me out. It's a book that's really just got more buzzkill in it than buzz.

Another thing I'd like to suggest is that we get more of both Titans teams going out and helping people. Since the '80s, the majority of Titans villians have had a personal connection to the Titans. This may add more drama and emotion to the proceedings in a lot of ways, but it also makes it seem like they spend a lot of time cleaning up their own messes. Let's give these young heroes that real "Look out, everybody, I'm out to save the world!" kind of reckless idealism. Have them go out and do some good. Maybe even bring back the thing the '60s Teen Titans used to do. Other teenagers would call or write to them when they had no one else to turn to, and they'd go help them.

Just my two cents.