The Big Question about current Amazing Spider-Man sales

[Mister Mets]

An argument that keeps showing up in the thousands of posts in the various sales threads on this forum is that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if it weren't for the backlash against One More Day/ the newly single Peter Parker.

Let's assume that all other things (the creative team, thrice-monthly format, the villains, the world forgetting Spider-Man's identity, Harry's resurrection) had remained the same. Do you believe that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if Peter Parker were still married to Mary Jane at the end of JMS's Spider-Man run? If so, make your case (and get ready for someone else to try to poke holes in it).

[Nick MB]

Not substantially. I think the odd-seeming idea of using a deal with the devil to create the new status quo might have done a lot more harm to perceptions of the new Spidey stuff than the loss of the marriage did. And just the fact that One More Day was not a particularly good comic.

[ShaggyB]

Id bet it would be leveling off in the mid to upper 80,000 range. Some arcs would slump no matter if they hadnt done OMD or not.

[DeadXMan]

Not substantially. I think the odd-seeming idea of using a deal with the devil to create the new status quo might have done a lot more harm to perceptions of the new Spidey stuff than the loss of the marriage did. And just the fact that One More Day was not a particularly good comic.

I don't. It's an easier back door then the one JMS wanted to use(over again)

OMD is still better then the other sins past and the stalker combinded

[Mister Mets]

My suspicions.

The sales for the initial Slott/ McNiven arc would not have been as high, without the interest in the story generated by the controversy (the flipside to the One More Day backlash was that BND got more attention than it otherwise would have received.)

The dropoff might have been less significant, as some readers likely had little to no interest in reading about a single Peter Parker who lived with his elderly aunt (a status quo which has changed by now.) But instead of complaints that the comics have gone back to the 70s, there'd likely be complaints that the comics have gone back to the early 90s.

Sales would certainly be less than they were for the title, when JMS was writing Amazing Spider-Man (and 21 straight issues were tied to Events) for the following reasons.
1- There still wouldn't be the classic villains.
2- There still wouldn't be any A-list writers.
3- It would still cost readers nine bucks a month to follow all the book under the new schedule.

It is worth noting that sales of the Spider-Man titles continued to decline after the clone saga ended, indicating the flaws in a "safe" status quo for a title.

[Herr Mike]

I think that's a pretty good assessment.

It's of course impossible to know for sure, but the current numbers on Amazing seem in line with the pre-Civil War/Back In Black sales. So for every reader that cried and burned it in disgust, there seems to have been one who picked it up and stuck with it, at least so far.

Of course the sales could start dropping more dramatically.

[CMBMOOL]

An argument that keeps showing up in the thousands of posts in the various sales threads on this forum is that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if it weren't for the backlash against One More Day/ the newly single Peter Parker.

Let's assume that all other things (the creative team, thrice-monthly format, the villains, the world forgetting Spider-Man's identity, Harry's resurrection) had remained the same. Do you believe that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if Peter Parker were still married to Mary Jane? If so, make your case (and get ready for someone else to try to poke holes in it).
You're asking if OMD Still did occur, but without the marriage being destoryed, then I'm In. :biggrin:

[BlackToe]

I probably would'nt be into it. There would be a forced MJ quota, just like the last issues and we'd be hearing Peter and MJ say the same stale go-nowhere reassuring "pillow-talk" they've been sayin since the mid-90's. And MJ would be stressed...again. I had enough of that in the 90's.

I would probably pick up the Spider-man stand alone issues though with the least amount of personal life input.

[jefseg77]

An argument that keeps showing up in the thousands of posts in the various sales threads on this forum is that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if it weren't for the backlash against One More Day/ the newly single Peter Parker.

Let's assume that all other things (the creative team, thrice-monthly format, the villains, the world forgetting Spider-Man's identity, Harry's resurrection) had remained the same. Do you believe that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if Peter Parker were still married to Mary Jane? If so, make your case (and get ready for someone else to try to poke holes in it).

I see what you are saying but your question assumes the only problem people had was the marriage, so its hard to just stay in that boundry when discussing SPider-man.

I will say this, I would have continued to buy Spider-man if we had the three times a month format with a logical story that didnt messed uo twenty years of reading Spider-man books (not to mention the New Avengers). What I think is, it wasnt how that they ended the marriage, its how they did it, then wanted to just re-start the whole process. Thats what killed it for a lot of people. Had it followed a logical pattern, it might have burned a few bridges, but not as many.

I just keep thinking, what if we had this thrice monthly format, with new villians, and a logical story, that would have been freakin great. (I never gave a shit about Harry, was there some big community that was beggin for Harry to return?) I do agree that eventually they would have had to do something about Peter being on the run, I guess magic fixes everything.

I suppose in your scenario, where we only eat a slice of crap instead of the whole pie, the numbers would have leveled off faster than they did now.

[Joe Acro]

If people think like I do, and I feel sure that many do given various rising costs of stuff including gas, I can't really support a thrice monthly comic.

I imagine that affects sales more than One More Day specifically.

[Mister Mets]

I see what you are saying but your question assumes the only problem people had was the marriage, so its hard to just stay in that boundry when discussing SPider-man.

I will say this, I would have continued to buy Spider-man if we had the three times a month format with a logical story that didnt messed uo twenty years of reading Spider-man books (not to mention the New Avengers). What I think is, it wasnt how that they ended the marriage, its how they did it, then wanted to just re-start the whole process. Thats what killed it for a lot of people. Had it followed a logical pattern, it might have burned a few bridges, but not as many.

I just keep thinking, what if we had this thrice monthly format, with new villians, and a logical story, that would have been freakin great. (I never gave a shit about Harry, was there some big community that was beggin for Harry to return?) I do agree that eventually they would have had to do something about Peter being on the run, I guess magic fixes everything.

I suppose in your scenario, where we only eat a slice of crap instead of the whole pie, the numbers would have leveled off faster than they did now.One thing to note. I personally don't believe that the numbers would be better if it weren't for OMD. However, it seems to be the underlying assumption of many of the points on the various sales threads.

You're asking if OMD Still did occur, but without the marriage being destoryed, then I'm In. :biggrin:In this case, I doubt OMD would be as controversial (if it ended with Peter rejecting Mephisto's offer, or learning of an alternative.) Though we might have readers calling it anticlimactic, if nothing of significance happened.

[Johnny Sorrow]

If the marriage was still around I would be buying it now (currently I'm not) and I suspect there are a fair few like that.

I would still be unhappy with the general poor quality of the writing in BND and the backwards step that the character has taken, but I would definitely be buying it, so yeah, I think sales would be higher if the marriage was still in place.

I also think sales would be higher still if the whole backwards step wasn't taken and the level of maturity and character development from JMS's run had been maintained in a thrice monthly book.

[ZT4]

If the marraige were still around, I'd hang around out of curiosity. There seemed to be some effort being made into the supporting cast again...but I had detacthed myself from 616 years ago, it'd take a baby to get me back at any rate, or Flash or Liz finding out who Peter is (not everybody on the block, just the two who have been a long-term double-act around Peter)

[matthewaos]

I think that it would be better if:

OMD/BND never happen
JMS leaves the book
Not so many new villains, Spidey has a million villains. JMS never used any of them (and don't start with doc ock and sins past)

[Bevie]

An argument that keeps showing up in the thousands of posts in the various sales threads on this forum is that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if it weren't for the backlash against One More Day/ the newly single Peter Parker.

Let's assume that all other things (the creative team, thrice-monthly format, the villains, the world forgetting Spider-Man's identity, Harry's resurrection) had remained the same. Do you believe that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if Peter Parker were still married to Mary Jane at the end of JMS's Spider-Man run? If so, make your case (and get ready for someone else to try to poke holes in it).


I can't speak for anyone else, but I would still be reading in that case. And that would increase the sales each month by 3. :biggrin:

Those two together helped me weather the occasional bad story so of course I would still be buying now if the marriage wasn't broken. And also, the continuity wouldn't be messed up as well.

I might not like that dead Harry is back, or nobody knows who Spidey is now, or that Aunt May has regressed to idiot status, and would no doubt complain about those things, BUT I WOULD STILL BE READING! :smile:

[gorthon616]

An argument that keeps showing up in the thousands of posts in the various sales threads on this forum is that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if it weren't for the backlash against One More Day/ the newly single Peter Parker.

Let's assume that all other things (the creative team, thrice-monthly format, the villains, the world forgetting Spider-Man's identity, Harry's resurrection) had remained the same. Do you believe that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if Peter Parker were still married to Mary Jane at the end of JMS's Spider-Man run? If so, make your case (and get ready for someone else to try to poke holes in it).

Yes.

Simply because, while other people might like single Peter Parker more than married Peter Parker, I do not think people are picking up the story *solely* for the fact that he is single now. I mean, really, if you like single Peter Parker that much, there are other books where you can buy it. If you like single Peter Parker, you probably already like Spider-Man and were already buying Spider-Man.

Granted, you'll like it more that he's single. But I highly doubt there are many people who jumped off the Spider-Man boat back when he was married and are now suddenly reading Spider-Man because he is single. I think the fans who had a problem with the marriage initially probably got over their grievance a long time ago or alternatively if they hadn't been reading Spider-Man since then probably do not have as strong an interest generically in the character anymore.

In contrast, I do think that there are people who jumped off the boat. I think in time they'll get back on, but for the strict reasons of "did single Peter bring in fans" I feel it brought in less fans than it brought in.

[Rahul]

If they are truly telling consistently good stories which are packed with something that gives it a consistent edge like in New Avengers, Secret Invasion, maybe the sales would have been stable at a decent peak long time ago.....


..but it isnt that is because they're just hanging in there until New Ways to Die comes out and while the're hanging, they're giving not so great stories...

[matthewaos]

Actually my dream Spider-Man schedule would be:

Amazing Spider-Man - A writer that was for quite some time with the character, like Stern, or a writer who loves continuity and can handle it. This would be the classic title, the one that you can read more "classic" stories, and not so much bringing new light on the character and such.

Spectacular Spider-Man (or what ever the title) - Someone like DeMatteis or Sacassa, or anyway someone who can tell darker stories, something that you can see a kind of different Spider-Man. In this title there can be writen special stories that may or may not be so much tied in continuity. Think about "special" stories like MK Spider-Man, Kraven's Last Hunt, Torment, etc.

No need for a third title, but it can feel the blanks by the other two, something in between. Who cares if he is married or not, really, that's not what makes the character good, as long as the stories are good.

[John Lynch]

Let's assume that all other things (the creative team, thrice-monthly format, the villains, the world forgetting Spider-Man's identity, Harry's resurrection) had remained the same. Do you believe that Amazing Spider-Man would sell better if Peter Parker were still married to Mary Jane at the end of JMS's Spider-Man run? If so, make your case (and get ready for someone else to try to poke holes in it).Yes I do. I doubt very much a significant amount of people came onto Amazing Spider-Man because he's single (I'd say many more left because he's single rather then came on because he's single). As such the new sales that were garnered by a thrice-monthly ASM and the people working on the book would have remained the same. It would have also gained the people who left because of OMD.

Unfortunately this argument relies on the fact that more people DID leave because of OMD then came on because of OMD. There's no way to know for sure (unless someone performs a scientific survey) why the majority left or came on. So the counter argument is equally impossible to prove.

I can guarantee it would have one extra sale (mine!), but then others can guarantee it wouldn't have their sale (Blacktoe). Anecdotes isn't the same as proof.

Personally I'd like to eventually give Amazing Spider-Man a go. But I always find some reason to put off trying it out. Like the new Trinity series which has my interest a lot more then an old version of Spider-Man. Heck, I see myself buying Amazing Spider-Girl before I give the new Spider-Man a try.

[Mister Mets]

Yes I do. I doubt very much a significant amount of people came onto Amazing Spider-Man because he's single (I'd say many more left because he's single rather then came on because he's single). As such the new sales that were garnered by a thrice-monthly ASM and the people working on the book would have remained the same. It would have also gained the people who left because of OMD.

Unfortunately this argument relies on the fact that more people DID leave because of OMD then came on because of OMD. There's no way to know for sure (unless someone performs a scientific survey) why the majority left or came on. So the counter argument is equally impossible to prove.

I can guarantee it would have one extra sale (mine!), but then others can guarantee it wouldn't have their sale (Blacktoe). Anecdotes isn't the same as proof.

Personally I'd like to eventually give Amazing Spider-Man a go. But I always find some reason to put off trying it out. Like the new Trinity series which has my interest a lot more then an old version of Spider-Man. Heck, I see myself buying Amazing Spider-Girl before I give the new Spider-Man a try.I congratulate you on an intelligent reply, and your understanding of the central question of whether Amazing Spider-Man would sell better being different from whether you as an individual would buy the series. I suspect August's New Ways to Die will be a good jump on point. Though the next issue (664) should also give you a taste of the styles of the three main writers.

I do think the low sales of Sensational Spider-Man and Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man demonstrated that featuring a married Spider-Man isn't enough to get an appropriate amount of fans to buy the book.

[John Lynch]

I suspect August's New Ways to Die will be a good jump on point. Though the next issue (664) should also give you a taste of the styles of the three main writers.Considering I haven't even begun reading, I figure I'll jump in after the new status quo is (supposedly) established.

I do think the low sales of Sensational Spider-Man and Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man demonstrated that featuring a married Spider-Man isn't enough to get an appropriate amount of fans to buy the book.I don't think so. I think those books would have sold equally as poorly (or worse) if they had continued publishing into the current status quo. Their problem wasn't that they had a married Spider-Man (which ASM also had), but that their stories were ancillary to the main one of ASM.

[lazlo_toth]

I do think the low sales of Sensational Spider-Man and Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man demonstrated that featuring a married Spider-Man isn't enough to get an appropriate amount of fans to buy the book.

??? How so? I thought that it had more to do with the fact that ASM is always going to be the "core" title (or at least perceived that way) and the other titles would always be satellites to ASM.


And to answer the question about BND, I'd say that ASM would sell better if the marriage were still intact. I've stated before that I'm a big proponent of the 3x monthly schedule, the rotating creative teams (even if some of the creators leave something to be desired), and the overall lightening of tone that BND brings. Whatever pile of shit that OMD would have dumped on our heads would have been much less odious if it didn't entail ending the marriage, and I also think Harry Osborne just all of a sudden being alive again would have ruffled less feathers as well. So, a lot of the people who have stopped buying ASM would have kept buying the book, and almost by default ASM would sell more. I also have yet to be convinced that Spidey being single has been the primary motivating factor behind for any substantial portion of the people who have started reading ASM since OMD.

[fanboyspodcast]

There in lies the key problem with talking about ASM's thrice monthly sales. If a reader wants the full story of a multi-issue storyline then they HAVE to buy each issue every month.

With FNSM / SSM / ASM that usually wasn't the case. The die-hard ASM fans could buy one book most months (usually ASM) and save their money. FNSM and SSM were viewed as the lesser books in comparison to ASM.

At that time I was pretty much a die hard completist so nothing was going to get in the way of my buying ASM...however gas in my car and/or Taco Bell might interfere with a purchase of FNSM or SSM on a regular basis.

G.

[edogawa1983]

I don't think there would be any significant difference

how much was JMS's Amazing selling before event mode, around 80K? I think 70K-80K is how much Amazing really sells without doing events.

[Mister Mets]

Considering I haven't even begun reading, I figure I'll jump in after the new status quo is (supposedly) established.The new status quo is fairly settled at the moment, though there are some things that won't last long (IE- Peter's currently not telling his roommate that he got fired from the Daily Bugle.) I think we're at the point where the status quo's never going to be exactly the same for an extended period of time (an advantage of the thrice-monthly schedule).

I don't think so. I think those books would have sold equally as poorly (or worse) if they had continued publishing into the current status quo. Their problem wasn't that they had a married Spider-Man (which ASM also had), but that their stories were ancillary to the main one of ASM.Satellite titles before FNSM/ Sensational Spider-Man (even Zeb Wells' seven issue run of Peter Parker Spider-Man was always in the top thirty) actually sold pretty well, even though Amazing Spider-Man rarely referenced the titles. Granted, it might be that it took readers a few years to realize or get tired of this, which would somewhat explain why FNSM/ Sensational sold worse than their predecessors (in addition the rise of the Avenger's franchise and DC's weekly book has had a significant impact on sales rankings).

The point remains that following the adventures of a married Peter Parker and Mary Jane within the Marvel Universe isn't enough to guarantee decent (for a core Spider-Man title) sales, especially if the readers get the impression that nothing of importance is happening in the title.

[ZT4]

The point remains that following the adventures of a married Peter Parker and Mary Jane within the Marvel Universe isn't enough to guarantee decent (for a core Spider-Man title) sales, especially if the readers get the impression that nothing of importance is happening in the title.

And whose fault is that? The writers. Nobody elses. Not the marraige, not readers, but the WRITERS, W-R-I-T-E-R-S.

THERE is your problem. Fact.

[ShaggyB]

And whose fault is that? The writers. Nobody elses. Not the marraige, not readers, but the WRITERS, W-R-I-T-E-R-S.

THERE is your problem. Fact.

im not certain if its the writers or the decision to not have stories cross between satelight titles and ASM.

Id blame that really. For me Sensational's Feral story line was better than the stuff from ASM that happened in the same time frame.

[Mister Mets]

And whose fault is that? The writers. Nobody elses. Not the marraige, not readers, but the WRITERS, W-R-I-T-E-R-S.

THERE is your problem. Fact.The perception might have nothing to do with the W-R-I-T-E-R-S, but with the reaction if One More Day had ended with Peter exactly in the same place where he was in Amazing Spider-Man #508 (or Amazing Spider-Man #360, if Harry was back and Aunt May didn't know his identity.)

[Just a Shadow]

I think that the primary reason for the rise in sales isn't due to the changes but due to there being 3 ASM's a month without the extra titles. ASM tends to sell better than the others and people see the others as more like satellite books. To me the real test of success has nothing to do with the total Spidey books a month, but do the 3 books on average sell more or less than the one ASM used to. If the average ASM issues sells more than it used to, then it is a success. I honestly don't think that there are that many people that would drop ASM simply because it was 3 times a month, even though I am sure it has happened in some cases. If it sells the same then not much has changed and if it sells less (with some room given to take into account people dropping it because it is too many books a month), then I consider it to be a failure.

As to the question on hand, I can honestly say I have no idea. It all depends on how these things are done. What happened in OMD/BND turned me off not because of the end of the marriage, but the massive retcon. It felt like a restart. Now I hear that they are claiming that it wasn't a retcon but people just forgot things, but that sounds like utter bullshit to me and is likely an excuse to placate other pissed off fans.

I think that the thrice monthly format would have definitely caused an increase in total spidey sales, regardless of what was done before. When it comes to things like the villains, i don't think it hurts things, but perhaps they should have mixed in new with old as opposed to going through a whole year with just new. As for the identity thing, once mroe it all depends on how it is done. If they actually did a magic mind erase, like the sentry story or what was done in flash, then maybe it might have worked better than OMD did if they explained from day one that history was unchanged but people's memories of it were altered.

So in the end, i can't say whether it would've sold better or not. To me the real problem is deleting so much of his history, which whether the BND apologists want to admit or not, is exactly what happened. In the end, it all depends on how things were done and not the results that they led to. For instance, whether Peter and MJ remained married or not is ancillary to the issue and lacks importance to me as I would've gladly supported a single Peter if done correctly. But they chose a way that I found horrid and insulting, thus I chose to simply drop the books.

[John Lynch]

The new status quo is fairly settled at the moment, though there are some things that won't last long (IE- Peter's currently not telling his roommate that he got fired from the Daily Bugle.) I think we're at the point where the status quo's never going to be exactly the same for an extended period of time (an advantage of the thrice-monthly schedule).Considering I just dropped Trinity, I'll give it a chance with issue #565 then.

[Mister Mets]

Considering I just dropped Trinity, I'll give it a chance with issue #565 then.Looking forward to your opinion in the inevitable review thread for the issue.

[ZT4]

I do think the low sales of Sensational Spider-Man and Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man demonstrated that featuring a married Spider-Man isn't enough to get an appropriate amount of fans to buy the book.

Man, you're reaching for straws these days.

The marraige isnt the problem, but you'll never beleive that, which is why nobody can take you seriously anymore, your blatant and ignorant bias against the marraige is, rather scarily considering your avatar, very much a "Jameson Crusade", full of noise, but nothing to really pin the marraige down as a factor to the sales. There is much more to Spidey storylines being substantial than the trappings of the character, those very trappings are also the doorway to refreshing, progressive things.

It's Marvel and the writers that are the problem. Fact.

[Mister Mets]

Man, you're reaching for straws these days.

The marraige isnt the problem, but you'll never beleive that, which is why nobody can take you seriously anymore, your blatant and ignorant bias against the marraige is, rather scarily considering your avatar, very much a "Jameson Crusade", full of noise, but nothing to really pin the marraige down as a factor to the sales. There is much more to Spidey storylines being substantial than the trappings of the character, those very trappings are also the doorway to refreshing, progressive things.

It's Marvel and the writers that are the problem. Fact.I did not mean to suggest that the marriage was the reason that FNSM/ SSM did so poorly. However, the poor sales on those two books (which have been regarded as well-written) demonstrate that the marriage isn't enough to guarantee decent sales on the core Spider-Man titles.

[Badfish40oz]

I predict Spiderman sales dropping more and more.

Why? Because I don't think the average reader comes to these boards or reads Joe Q. interviews and knows what Marvel's plans for this really were.

Imagine if you had no idea what OMD or BND were meant to be, and you just read these comics like you read any other comics. OMD and BND would just seem like another Spiderman story that will eventually lead back to Peter and MJ meeting up again and "remembering", and Spidey confronting Mephisto or whatever, and then living happily ever after until the next threat comes around.

That didn't happen. And those fans in the dark are realizing it now. And they're leaving.

[cpahl2000]

I think that it would be better if:

OMD/BND never happen
JMS leaves the book
Not so many new villains, Spidey has a million villains. JMS never used any of them (and don't start with doc ock and sins past)



Indeed. BND happened and it´s a bad thing to Spidey, although many will kick my butt after I say that but it´s true.It´s not brand, just a updated version of an old Spidey.If the old events, specially after Back in black has continued and some changes have happened, that´s could be considered brand new, not making everybody forget events and things and live on, it´s wasn´t the best thing to be done, at all.

Some BND elements are good but Marvel can expect it´s the best way to change things, so, Spider-Man will live his life pretending everything that he faced or lived means nothing, and if BND fails, Marvel will make another OMD to introduce another BND, until when.

Some fans (like myself) didn´t like OMD and BND, that´s fact and the sales will drop or not, depends the arc, the creative team, but having hope the NWTD will save ASM it´s a little to much, JRJR is a big gun and will draw readers but Slott isn´t the writer to this event, and maybe NWTD isn´t the hail Mary pass that Marvel is looking for to make ASM number one( which is a stupid thing to Marvel seek).

[cpahl2000]

I predict Spiderman sales dropping more and more.

Why? Because I don't think the average reader comes to these boards or reads Joe Q. interviews and knows what Marvel's plans for this really were.

Imagine if you had no idea what OMD or BND were meant to be, and you just read these comics like you read any other comics. OMD and BND would just seem like another Spiderman story that will eventually lead back to Peter and MJ meeting up again and "remembering", and Spidey confronting Mephisto or whatever, and then living happily ever after until the next threat comes around.

That didn't happen. And those fans in the dark are realizing it now. And they're leaving.


True. Those hopes that you pointed will never happen and Tha will put away more fans.

[lazlo_toth]

I did not mean to suggest that the marriage was the reason that FNSM/ SSM did so poorly. However, the poor sales on those two books (which have been regarded as well-written) demonstrate that the marriage isn't enough to guarantee decent sales on the core Spider-Man titles.

I'm not quite sure what it it you're getting at with this statement. If you're not saying that the marriage was an outright impediment to sales, then insisting that the marriage also conversely didn't aid sales, then...what? That Spidey's marital status didn't really matter one way or another?

[Mister Mets]

I'm not quite sure what it it you're getting at with this statement. If you're not saying that the marriage was an outright impediment to sales, then insisting that the marriage also conversely didn't aid sales, then...what? That Spidey's marital status didn't really matter one way or another?In the short term, probably not.

[Jim Thompson]

In the short term, probably not.I don't think it mattered in the long-term, either. Spider-man was a fairly successful selling book when he was married and when he was single. People claiming he has to be one way or the other are talking more about their personal preferences rather than the character's marketability.

[Mister Mets]

I don't think it mattered in the long-term, either. Spider-man was a fairly successful selling book when he was married and when he was single. People claiming he has to be one way or the other are talking more about their personal preferences rather than the character's marketability. I think the long-term problem with the marriage is that it provides too much stability for Peter's status quo, if after several years he is always a happily married young man with a beautiful, loving and supportive wife to go home to. Long time readers will pick up on this, while writers will be unable to shake up a key element of the status quo.

[fanboyspodcast]

I think the long-term problem with the marriage is that it provides too much stability for Peter's status quo, if after several years he is always a happily married young man with a beautiful, loving and supportive wife to go home to. Long time readers will pick up on this, while writers will be unable to shake up a key element of the status quo.

>>

But on the flip side when a company comes out and essentially says, "Spider-Man is going to be single and basically remain at this place in his life forever." Ruining past character development and stunting the possibility of future growth...what's in it for the reader or writer? Entertainment without any changes of merit.

I can get the same thing by reading Archie.

G.

[Tetsuo_man]

>>

But on the flip side when a company comes out and essentially says, "Spider-Man is going to be single and basically remain at this place in his life forever." Ruining past character development and stunting the possibility of future growth...what's in it for the reader or writer? Entertainment without any changes of merit.

I can get the same thing by reading Archie.

G.

Well Dan Slott did write for Archie at one time...

[Mister Mets]

>>

But on the flip side when a company comes out and essentially says, "Spider-Man is going to be single and basically remain at this place in his life forever." Ruining past character development and stunting the possibility of future growth...what's in it for the reader or writer? Entertainment without any changes of merit.

I can get the same thing by reading Archie.

G.The reader/ writer has the illusion of change, which doesn't work if the Editor in Chief announces that's what they're doing.

But when done right, it shouldn't be that obvious to a new reader that noting significant is happening. There could still be future growth, just not the type that closes opportunities for later writers.

[mikekerr3]

Well Dan Slott did write for Archie at one time...

Archie requires better story telling than we get from BND

[Hertz]

The reader/ writer has the illusion of change, which doesn't work if the Editor in Chief announces that's what they're doing.

But when done right, it shouldn't be that obvious to a new reader that noting significant is happening. There could still be future growth, just not the type that closes opportunities for later writers.

Even if it's done right at the on set, and no one's coming out and stating exactly what the characters' status quo is going to be, if the material is around long enough that illusion of change disappears.

[albrot]

When I first heard that ASM was going to three times a month, the first thing I thought was "Money Grab!" Still, I decided that I would give it a chance. After all, more Spider-man, right? What's not to love.

Then I heard what their plans were for the character. This didn't sit well with me at all. Couple the changes to the character with the idea of shelling out even more money and I decided it just wasn't worth it. No matter how much I get invested in this character, Marvel is always going to reset him. There's no growth there. It was worse then the crap DC likes to pull. I read OMD. I read the first arc of BND. I gave them a chance to win me over. BND was supposed to be the best thing ever because Peter Parker was single now and they could tell all these fantastic stories that had been locked away because of the marriage. After all was said and done, shrug.

If they had done one or the other, move to a three times a month schedule or dissolve the marriage, I probably would have stuck around. Doing both at the same time made it impossible for me.

Long story short, I think BND would be doing better if they had picked one or the other. Both are huge changes to Spider-man and stacking them on top of each other was probably a bit too much for some fans.

[fanboyspodcast]

When I first heard that ASM was going to three times a month, the first thing I thought was "Money Grab!" Still, I decided that I would give it a chance. After all, more Spider-man, right? What's not to love.

Then I heard what their plans were for the character. This didn't sit well with me at all. Couple the changes to the character with the idea of shelling out even more money and I decided it just wasn't worth it. No matter how much I get invested in this character, Marvel is always going to reset him. There's no growth there. It was worse then the crap DC likes to pull. I read OMD. I read the first arc of BND. I gave them a chance to win me over. BND was supposed to be the best thing ever because Peter Parker was single now and they could tell all these fantastic stories that had been locked away because of the marriage. After all was said and done, shrug.

If they had done one or the other, move to a three times a month schedule or dissolve the marriage, I probably would have stuck around. Doing both at the same time made it impossible for me.

Long story short, I think BND would be doing better if they had picked one or the other. Both are huge changes to Spider-man and stacking them on top of each other was probably a bit too much for some fans.

>>

WELCOME SIR! Nice to have you onboard!

G.

[Endless Flight]

Just imagine the sales if they had left the book alone, and increased ASM to 3x monthly. They'd be doing better now with pre-OMD continuity. Instead of selling 220,000 a month, they'd probably be selling at least 240-250,000, and have the same number of readers.

Of course they say that they are trying to get new readers involved, but they've lost readers. People who perhaps only bought the satellite books aren't there any longer, because the books are gone. So where you might have had 80k people buy Amazing, and another 10k buy just a satellite book or two, you now have 75k just buying AMS 3x a month.

If you judge BND based on readership, it's been a failure.

[Mako]

Just imagine the sales if they had left the book alone, and increased ASM to 3x monthly. They'd be doing better now with pre-OMD continuity. Instead of selling 220,000 a month, they'd probably be selling at least 240-250,000, and have the same number of readers.

That's assuming that ASM would have kept its Road to Civil War/Civil War/Back in Black numbers after the event tie-ins were over. (Remember, Back in Black came right off the heels of CW). Before those event books and The Other, wasn't ASM selling in the 80k range?

Who's to say that these numbers aren't a result of whether readers are willing to commit to buying a regular 3x a month book?

It's easy to point to angry fan reaction to the new status quo. But that hasn't been a good indicator in the past. Look at the negative online response to Avengers Disassembled and other controversial story lines which had great success despite angry online reactions.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

Just imagine the sales if they had left the book alone, and increased ASM to 3x monthly. They'd be doing better now with pre-OMD continuity. Instead of selling 220,000 a month, they'd probably be selling at least 240-250,000, and have the same number of readers.

Of course they say that they are trying to get new readers involved, but they've lost readers. People who perhaps only bought the satellite books aren't there any longer, because the books are gone. So where you might have had 80k people buy Amazing, and another 10k buy just a satellite book or two, you now have 75k just buying AMS 3x a month.

If you judge BND based on readership, it's been a failure.

Alas, that last sentence is disturbingly true. I have made no secret of the fact that I stopped reading ASM after OMD and that I have discontinued collecting any Spider-Man related comics and merchandise. I had been a Spidey fan for over 30 years and found that One More Day tainted the character and ruined him beyond redemption..
My main point is that if there are thousands of people out there whom feel the same as I do and if Marvel do away with BND due to falling sales, there may be the possibility that the departed readership may not return to buying Spider-Man comics, merchandise etc. Could it be that either with or without BND in the future, Marvel has made a mistake?

[Matt Linton]

No offense, but I really think that "ruined him beyond redemption" is the extreme response, so it's not likely that there are thousands who feel the same way.

[Don't pee in the (Dead)pool]

No offense, but I really think that "ruined him beyond redemption" is the extreme response, so it's not likely that there are thousands who feel the same way.

No offence taken, Matt, I was just wondering if there were other people whom felt like I did. If that's not the case then hopefully sales figures could increase; just because I personally don't like Spidey anymore it doesn't mean I want him to be cancelled either.

[Matt Linton]

I generally figure that if the Clone Saga and the nearly simultaneous collapse of the comic industry didn't kill Spider-Man, nothing will. From purely a numbers standpoint, the book would still have to shed several thousand MORE readers to even be in cancellation range, and they'd likely try some different fixes (different teams, different schedule, etc) before that would happen.

[Matt Linton]

No offence taken, Matt, I was just wondering if there were other people whom felt like I did. If that's not the case then hopefully sales figures could increase; just because I personally don't like Spidey anymore it doesn't mean I want him to be cancelled either.

To be fair, my "Meh. I don't care about continuity, just make good comics" point of view probably isn't the majority view, either.

[The Shadow]

Archie requires better story telling than we get from BND

:rolleyes:

When was the last time you read an Archie?

[mikekerr3]

:rolleyes:

When was the last time you read an Archie?

Last week, my nieces.

[Endless Flight]

Archie probably sells better too.

[Red Lotus]

I dont think much would have change. I still think that there would have been a drop off from what JMS did and what is going on now. There are a lot of reasons for why sales are the way they are now. The Marriage is just one of the them. The writers are good, but they are not the A list guys that will bring fans in. Add that to how confusing OMD was about what didn't change and what did and thats another thing that will make you lose fans.

[Jim Thompson]

:rolleyes:

When was the last time you read an Archie?LOL! Believe it or not, I just got through reading the latest Archie Digest!

[mikekerr3]

No offense, but I really think that "ruined him beyond redemption" is the extreme response, so it's not likely that there are thousands who feel the same way.

It is likely that there are a significant number of people who dropped it until there is some redemption though. That may as well be "beyond redemption" at least as long as the current status quo remains in effect.

The new status quo alienated many people and Marvel has done nothing, and to redeem him after he did something that many people think stops him from being considered a hero.

[fanboyspodcast]

It's easy to point to angry fan reaction to the new status quo. But that hasn't been a good indicator in the past. Look at the negative online response to Avengers Disassembled and other controversial story lines which had great success despite angry online reactions.

>>

Correct. Because obviously fan reaction and declining sales didn't change the Clone Saga or Howard Mackie's long run on ASM...oh wait...

What was the point again?

G.

[Mako]

>>What was the point again?

G.

That like Avengers Disassembled, though there are a number of very vocal detractors, it is a direction that Marvel's powers that be seem to be behind.
And, with the way the sales are leveling off, the combined sales of the three current monthly Spider-Man books are greater than the combined sales of the three previous monthly Spider-Man books.

[Endless Flight]

I don't see the sales leveling off recently the same way some of you do.

[Jim Thompson]

I generally figure that if the Clone Saga and the nearly simultaneous collapse of the comic industry didn't kill Spider-Man, nothing will. Funny you should mention that. I always wondered if the Clone Saga was truly as universally despised as people make it out to be, or if it just had the misfortune to happen when the industry was falling apart.

[Mister Mets]

Even if it's done right at the on set, and no one's coming out and stating exactly what the characters' status quo is going to be, if the material is around long enough that illusion of change disappears.Possibly. Though if it's done right, the average reader should believe that his period is an exception. And Peter Parker should be somewhat changed by his experiences, even if he remains a bachelor in his mid-twenties.

Granted, there will come a time when most readers realize that certain things just aren't going to happen, and that the adventures of Peter Parker will continue for another few decades. At that point, the reader has several choices including dumping the Spider-Man books entirely, continuing to read them and accepting them for what they are or just reading occasional renowned storylines.

[Mister Mets]

Funny you should mention that. I always wondered if the Clone Saga was truly as universally despised as people make it out to be, or if it just had the misfortune to happen when the industry was falling apart.
One notable thing about the clone saga is that sales on the Spider-Man titles continued to decline after it came to an end. It's one reason I suspect that Amazing Spider-Man wouldn't be selling better if One More Day had come to a less controversial end. Sometimes controversy does result in fan interest, especially if the writing isn't the most acclaimed and no one's calling the stories some of the best the character's ever seen.

[ZT4]

"ruined him beyond redemption" is in fact less extreme than "he's still the same old goofy Spidey who makes mistakes"...that's just lunacy.

One notable thing about the clone saga is that sales on the Spider-Man titles continued to decline after it came to an end.

Mainly because the company didnt know what to do with the franchise at that point....Tom proposed they bring back Mayday, he built the whole thing up...and Marvel went with Chapter One and did further damage to Spidey.

Controversy is good if it's a concept that actually DOESNT harm the character, but stupidity also gets people talking.

[Jim Thompson]

One notable thing about the clone saga is that sales on the Spider-Man titles continued to decline after it came to an end. It's one reason I suspect that Amazing Spider-Man wouldn't be selling better if One More Day had come to a less controversial end. Sometimes controversy does result in fan interest, especially if the writing isn't the most acclaimed and no one's calling the stories some of the best the character's ever seen.Well, the Clone Saga ended before the industry reached rock-bottom, too.

[Hertz]

Possibly. Though if it's done right, the average reader should believe that his period is an exception. And Peter Parker should be somewhat changed by his experiences, even if he remains a bachelor in his mid-twenties.

Granted, there will come a time when most readers realize that certain things just aren't going to happen, and that the adventures of Peter Parker will continue for another few decades. At that point, the reader has several choices including dumping the Spider-Man books entirely, continuing to read them and accepting them for what they are or just reading occasional renowned storylines.

For the first part I agree, though, I don't think that many would agree that the OMD/BND situation was "done right". On the second part I think that the realization that readers come to has less to do with things not happening and more to do with aspects of the comic fluctuating between "it happened" and "it didn't happen" if you get what i mean.

On a slightly spidey related side note, have any of you read Mighty Avengers 15. If you have, when you saw that girl at the lecture was your first thought "Gwen Stacy!?" and was it followed immediately "WTF!?" especially later in the book.

[BlackToe]

Yeah I thought that was Gwen too, but then I remembered that ol'Blocky McGoo drew it, so who knows?

(I hope it was Gwen on purpose though)

[lazlo_toth]

Alas, that last sentence is disturbingly true. I have made no secret of the fact that I stopped reading ASM after OMD and that I have discontinued collecting any Spider-Man related comics and merchandise. I had been a Spidey fan for over 30 years and found that One More Day tainted the character and ruined him beyond redemption..
My main point is that if there are thousands of people out there whom feel the same as I do and if Marvel do away with BND due to falling sales, there may be the possibility that the departed readership may not return to buying Spider-Man comics, merchandise etc. Could it be that either with or without BND in the future, Marvel has made a mistake?

I think the reason we're still able to argue this point (is BND a success or a failure) after six months and some actual hard sales numbers is because when Marvel or DC make a mistake, it can take a long time before that fact is made clear. I seem to be one of the few BND bashers who can admit that this could all very well turn out to be a great success in the long run, despite the fact that I personally don't like it. The Clone Saga was a tremendous mistake, but it moved a lot of copies for a while and it was only after the whole thing got dragged out endlessly that it ended up being a bad idea.

BND is not selling at the level I thought it would, but it's still doing well. If sales a year from now aren't so good, who knows? All the comments about JQ and his ego aside, none of us know how he thinks or how committed he is to this. While he's been unambiguous in his desire to see the marriage done away with, I also doubt that he's going to ride the Spider-Man franchise down like some kind of Captain Ahab chasing Moby Dick should this thing collapse.

I do think it would take a pretty steep nose-dive for that to happen, though; I expect that a sudden reversal of OMD, especially something as insipid and clumsy and nonsensical as that was, would actually do more damage; the readers who bailed because of OMD are probably not all going to come back, and the readers who genuinely like the BND status quo are probably going to get full of righteous indignation and leave. Unless the return of the marriage at some suitably momentous point like ASM #600 is already part of the long-term plan ( I don't think it is, but it would by no means be out of character for JQ, you have to admit), I wouldn't hold my breath unless ASM sales fall to somewhere well shy of 60k per issue.

The thing that interests me is that while the total sales of ASM each month exceed the pre-OMD numbers for 3 separate titles, each issue of ASM sells less than it did before the change. We can argue all we want about what this all means, but I don't see how you can get around the conclusion that the number of readers who pick up Spider-Man books regularly has dropped. Essentially, the OMD/change chased away a fraction of ASM's readers, and if there were any people buying SSM or FNSM separately, they're gone. Marvel is making more $$$ in the short term, but they're making it off of fewer people. I don't know how that's a good thing in the long run. That, if anything, could end up being what does BND in.

I'm in no way, shape or form predicting that as some kind of fait accompli, though. There's been dozens of super-hyped revamps and events that started out very well, and continued to do well for longer than the 6 mos. that BND's had. Since I want the marriage back, I'm not at the point where I'm giving up hope, either.

[lazlo_toth]

I generally figure that if the Clone Saga and the nearly simultaneous collapse of the comic industry didn't kill Spider-Man, nothing will. From purely a numbers standpoint, the book would still have to shed several thousand MORE readers to even be in cancellation range, and they'd likely try some different fixes (different teams, different schedule, etc) before that would happen.


This is true. I'm not sure there's much they could do that WOULD cause that kind of a slide in readership. My partisanship notwithstanding, Clone Saga IMO did much greater damage to the franchise than BND has so far. I say this because all the ramifications of OMD haven't been revealed yet; once we get a clearer picture of how the rest of the MU sees Spider-Man, how and why Harry is still alive, whether MJ really remembers the marriage or not, and a couple of other things, I'll be able to judge that better. So far, I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt that there even IS an explanation for these things.

[SUPERECWFAN1]

I don't see the sales leveling off recently the same way some of you do.

Me either....but some if they wish hard enough and can believe it enough....will accept it. Me I find it funny that in 5-6 months over 50,000 have came , sampled BND and said "NOPE" .:tongue:

[fanboyspodcast]

And, with the way the sales are leveling off, the combined sales of the three current monthly Spider-Man books are greater than the combined sales of the three previous monthly Spider-Man books.

>>

I am so tired of that nonsense point.

Can an ASM reader tpically buy 1 issue a month? NO. Why? Because then they don't get the whole story. Back with FNSM and SSM you didn't have to buy all 3 titles every month because they rarely intersected the same storyline.

So am I shocked that the 3 ASM books sell close to the same numbers each month? NO. It's the same readers buying each issue to continue the story.

Am I shocked that ASM sales are declining each month? NO. Either for ease on the wallet, lack of interest, or "sampled it, didn't like it" these readers are now leaving the book.

By the way, leveling off...means level. The ASM numbers are not level...they're declining. No matter how tiny...it's a decline.

G.

[Matt Linton]

No, "level" means "level". "Leveling off" means "beginning to reach a point where things are level". If you're "stopping" does that mean you've stopped or that you're still moving?

[ShaggyB]

>>

I am so tired of that nonsense point.

Can an ASM reader tpically buy 1 issue a month? NO. Why? Because then they don't get the whole story. Back with FNSM and SSM you didn't have to buy all 3 titles every month because they rarely intersected the same storyline.

So am I shocked that the 3 ASM books sell close to the same numbers each month? NO. It's the same readers buying each issue to continue the story.

Am I shocked that ASM sales are declining each month? NO. Either for ease on the wallet, lack of interest, or "sampled it, didn't like it" these readers are now leaving the book.

By the way, leveling off...means level. The ASM numbers are not level...they're declining. No matter how tiny...it's a decline.

G.

so you are angry that the three books a month before OMD didnt sell as well because for the most part they were self contained?

The point hes making is no matter how you wish to compare it. ASM sells more than all three did before. THAT MEANS PROFIT to marvel. So while yes it may be an unfair comparison.... Marvel still nets more cash per month doing it this way. Which means they can ignore the problem for longer as its still profitable to continue on.

And leveling off does not mean level. Level means level, leveling off means slowly coming to a level or flat state. Leveling off tends to mean that the decline or increase in something is slowing down to the point of a constant. IE less and less loss per month in sales = leveling off. Level would be = number of sales.

[albrot]

Here's the thing.

If they had hinted, either through the grapevine or though interviews or some other means, that BND was leading up to something, I think fans might have accepted it more. Instead, it comes off as a huge continuity reset and an editorial mandate to get rid of something that some fans really found to be part of the core essence of Spider-man.

Wow, that was a bit off topic, sorry bout that. I honestly believe that if they had kept the marriage intact, or at least kept MJ and Peter together but not married at the beginning of BND, the numbers would be simply outstanding and Marvel would be able to trumpet how well ASM is doing in its thrice monthly format.

[albrot]

Quick question about the whole leveling off thing.

Let's say it was selling 80k copies in month one.
70k copies in month two.
65k copies in month three
60k copies in month four
55k copies in month five
50k copies in month six

Is that still levling off, or is it level? It loses 5k readers per month, but no more. Eventually nobody is reading it of course, but let's ignore that for my question.

[Alan2099]

If they had hinted, either through the grapevine or though interviews or some other means, that BND was leading up to something, I think fans might have accepted it more.
Not really. They'd still be complaining. Just think about anytime they've said they've got plans for something, just wait and see. People that don't like it are just using that as another excuse not to like it.

[Matt Linton]

Quick question about the whole leveling off thing.

Let's say it was selling 80k copies in month one.
70k copies in month two.
65k copies in month three
60k copies in month four
55k copies in month five
50k copies in month six

Is that still levling off, or is it level? It loses 5k readers per month, but no more. Eventually nobody is reading it of course, but let's ignore that for my question.

I wouldn't consider that leveling off because after month two it's dropping at the same rate every month. That's more of a steady decline. With Brand New Day, while it's dropped every month, the amount of the drop has significantly decreased from one month to the next.

[ShaggyB]

Quick question about the whole leveling off thing.

Let's say it was selling 80k copies in month one.
70k copies in month two.
65k copies in month three
60k copies in month four
55k copies in month five
50k copies in month six

Is that still levling off, or is it level? It loses 5k readers per month, but no more. Eventually nobody is reading it of course, but let's ignore that for my question.

that would not be an example of leveling off. Thats called a steady decrease....

May08: ASM #560 BND = 74,012...#23 for the month
May08: ASM #559 BND = 74,206...#21 for the month
May08: ASM #558 BND = 76,966...#20 for the month
Apr08: ASM #557 BND = 77,057...#16 for the month
Apr08: ASM #556 BND = 78,458...#14 for the month
Apr08: ASM #555 BND = 86,902...#08 for the month

looking at just last two months
you see a 10k drop from issue 1
you see a 4k drop from issue 2
you see a 3k drop from issue 3

thats slowly dropping to 0k drop per month... demonstrates a leveling off.... ofcourse that can change with next months numbers for better or worse.

[Endless Flight]

I only really compare the first issues of the month, since that's usually the ones fans buy the most.

[TF_loki]

Me either....but some if they wish hard enough and can believe it enough....will accept it. Me I find it funny that in 5-6 months over 50,000 have came , sampled BND and said "NOPE" .:tongue:

Or did marvel get 50k extra subscriptions as people thought "I want it, but not at that price."?
And what'll happen when the trades hit bookstores? That's when Marvel will start to do the sums properly. And we won't have a clue. All the MA stuff is waaaay below cancellation levels according to direct sales figures but it does enough business in non direct outlets to justify it's existance, so we aren't seeing true performance. Just one thing to consider.

[ShaggyB]

I only really compare the first issues of the month, since that's usually the ones fans buy the most.

id argue that one. Id say fans of BND will really be the only ones buying the last issue of the month. The first issue seems to me to be the "give the story arc a chance" issue. Seems to me those that buy the third issue are likely also buying issue 1 and 2, but those that buy 1 and/or 2 arent always buying all 3. so id argue the core audience is the people who buy issue#3