I think people are exaggerating heavily about how hard it is to get into Final Crisis

[Tanjint]

I think people are exaggerating heavily about how hard it is to get into Final Crisis.

I only read Dini and Morrison batbooks. and I don't even read the current issues, I read the collected editions. and FC read beautifully to me.

I mean, what do you need to know?

Dan Turpin-he's in the superman cartoon for chrissakes!

Darkseid/New Gods- Have most people seriously not read Morrison's JLA? That's some basic stuff, what else do you need to know about these cats?

Martian Manhunter- In the cartoons and most League stories.

People trip out about Kamandi and Anthro but all I see is cave people and the evolution and nature of man/war etc. Anyone with a basic grasp of human history can appreciate applying superheroes to man's development. People were trying too hard to tie that stuff in to old Anthro or Kamandi stories or something (which I have never read btw)

This villain pops up and tells Lex and others that he can turn the tides of good guys winning all the time.

A monitor, which anyone who read any Crisis which is alot of people would know, gets killed and reincarnated as a human. The end.

Source material required?

Morrison's JLA or any New Gods exposure..hell these guys are in the cartoons too

either of the previous crises-just so you know what monitors are

a 7th grade educaiton-ya know, so you know about prehistoric man a little bit.

All of those are pretty popular source materials. I certainly didn't have to read death of the new gods or countdown..and I didn't.

Furthermore, i find it HILARIOUS that people are saying Secret Invasion is easier to get into than FC.

Final Crisis to me, is obviously a story that spans human life from beginning to end...so you can just view it as a big ass stand alone movie.

Secret Invasion is the result of a 3 yr+ build up of everything Bendis has been doing since he started linking Jessica Jones/Matt Murdock/Luke Cage.

I wouldn't touch secret invasion with a ten foot pole if I hadn't read all the new avengers stuff that leads into it (which i did, so I'm reading it).

Final Crisis requires almost no primer imo when SI would be very weak without all the primer.



-T

[Von Zombie]

I agree. I dont know anything about the DCU. I've never read any of the Crisis books, 52, or countdown and I still enjoyed the first issue of Final Crisis. I didnt even know who half the characters were until after I listened to the Comic Geek Speak podcast review. I cant wait to see how the rest of the story plays out.

[Tanjint]

exactly, as far as I'm concerned.outside of the big 7 (bats, supes, wondy, flash, GL, martian manhunter, aquaman) and Lex Luthor, this could be the first appearance of everyone else in the book and I'd be fine with it and it makes sense.

Man exists.

Man makes war.

Men devise things like fire and tools to facilitate war.

There are super heroes and villains they make war.

Superheroes usually win.

Apparently a villain is devising something to facilitate war against the heroes.

said villain kills a hero to prove a point and test his effeciveness.

end issue 1. what else do you need to know, really?

-T

[dotdotdot]

this didn't need a thread right? this is what half of the posts in the other threads are saying

[Infra-Man]

Furthermore, i find it HILARIOUS that people are saying Secret Invasion is easier to get into than FC.

Final Crisis to me, is obviously a story that spans human life from beginning to end...so you can just view it as a big ass stand alone movie.

Secret Invasion is the result of a 3 yr+ build up of everything Bendis has been doing since he started linking Jessica Jones/Matt Murdock/Luke Cage.

I wouldn't touch secret invasion with a ten foot pole if I hadn't read all the new avengers stuff that leads into it (which i did, so I'm reading it).

Final Crisis requires almost no primer imo when SI would be very weak without all the primer.

The only Marvel titles I read are Thor, Iron Fist, and Omega the Unknown, and I can follow Secret Invasion just fine without reading any of the three-year set up.

[HulkSmashedMe]

I think the whole point was the only people who were really confused are those that DID read Countdown and Death of the New Gods....
...
Of course being told to ignore those books helped alot....

[Choppa]

I think most people were thrown for a loop because it really had nothing to do with what occurred before.

[Superboy-Prime]

The only Marvel titles I read are Thor, Iron Fist, and Omega the Unknown, and I can follow Secret Invasion just fine without reading any of the three-year set up.

you tellin me u didn't read civil war? NA Illuminatti? and secret war or NA(ongoing)?

I would've been lost if not for those.

[carabas]

Secret Invasion is the final chapter of a years-long storyline. And with a massive fleet of ships and hordes of Super-Skrulls attacking earth from #1, the title is perhaps unfortunately chosen. It is lots less accesible than Final Crisis.

And without a good understanding of recent Marvel continuity, I can't see how one could make sense of these two competing teams of Avengers, or of Skrull-Spider-Woman's scene with Stark in #3.

[Buried Alien]

COIE # 1 was just as disorienting in 1985.

That first CRISIS featured Anthro and Kamandi quite prominently in its opening chapters as well, although the two did not interact.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[LtMarvel]

I disagree. It is far from clear to me who the guy who woke up was suppose to be. (I thought he was Orion.) I also like the storytelling in which characters are mentioned by name. I don't know all of the Titans that were defeated, for instance.

Back in 1985, if you had read Brave and the Bold/DC Comics Presents for the obscure characters, a Roy Thomas Earth 2 book, and Swamp Thing for the mystics, you could easily follow every scene.

I do expect further Crisis chapters to explain what happened in #1 a bit more clearly.

Then again, DC is publishing the writer's commentary edition....maybe that's supposed to do.

[Buried Alien]

I disagree. It is far from clear to me who the guy who woke up was suppose to be. (I thought he was Orion.) I also like the storytelling in which characters are mentioned by name. I don't know all of the Titans that were defeated, for instance.

Back in 1985, if you had read Brave and the Bold/DC Comics Presents for the obscure characters, a Roy Thomas Earth 2 book, and Swamp Thing for the mystics, you could easily follow every scene.

Perhaps. Of course, superhero comics in general were less complex in 1985 than they are today. Somewhere along the way during the past twenty years, the art of simplicity has been lost from these comics.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Lester C.]

Exaggerating or not this book was a distant two in terms of sales. And given the polarized view on it, coupled with the fact that every new series experiences a drop in sales after the first issue, I don't think Final Crisis is going to dig DC out of the hole they dug for themselves. This is a shame as I much prefer the mythology of the DCU when compared to Marvel.

Also the point of this book being unapproachable to new fans is valid. Even the creator of this thread, when making the point of the ease of acciblility of Final Crisis, admitted that he had read Morrison's pervious work which is necarry to get into Final Crisis.

[carabas]

It's #2 on the top 300. How is that bad, considering how badly DC has sabotaged the book?

[Infra-Man]

you tellin me u didn't read civil war? NA Illuminatti? and secret war or NA(ongoing)?

I would've been lost if not for those.

I read Civil War but none of those other books, and I get what's happening in Secret Invasion.

Maybe I don't get all of the nuance of what's going on since I didn't read the set up over the last few years, but fundamentally, Secret Invasion is a mass invasion by a shapeshifting alien race, and they've had alien agents in the guise of well-known heroes well in advance of the first issue. What's hard to understand about that?

[CBikle]

It's only the 1st issue, so some confusion should be expected.

Also, people seem to be getting stupider.

[carabas]

What's hard to understand about that?I reckon if I hadn't read Civil War, I'd find the competing teams of Avengers mighty confusing.

[pariah-1972]

To be honest this is pretty straight forward for a Morrison book.

[Infra-Man]

I reckon if I hadn't read Civil War, I'd find the competing teams of Avengers mighty confusing.

I can see that. Did they go into the formation of the official Avengers and the rogue Avengers in Civil War? I can't remember. I just assumed that was only addressed in the aftermath of Civil War (didn't read any of that).

When I read the first couple of issues of Secret Invasion, I just figured "Oh, hey, two factions of The Avengers and they probably don't get along. That's interesting. Eff yeah, now they're fighting evil aliens and dinosaurs!"

Final Crisis is another thing entirely, of course. It makes sense to me since I'm an avid DC reader and (thankfully) skipped all that Countdown stuff. Actually, the Justice League not knowing who Orion was is pretty confusing, but otherwise it was easy for me to understand. However, if someone wasn't familiar with who the New Gods, the anti-life equation, and the original Crisis on Infinite Earths, some of that first issue could be a bit hard to follow.

[Angelo2113]

[QUOTE=Infra-Man;7054641]Actually, the Justice League not knowing who Orion was is pretty confusing, but otherwise it was easy for me to understand. QUOTE]

To me it seems that some members of the league know who Orion is, but others that dont Batman made up a "profile" to inform them about New Gods.

[Infra-Man]

To me it seems that some members of the league know who Orion is, but others that dont Batman made up a "profile" to inform them about New Gods.

Superman defers to The Guardians' profile on The New Gods, if I'm not mistaken, not Batman's. I found it odd that Jon didn't know who Orion was and that Supes had to explain who they were in such a rudimentary way. You'd figure everyone in The League be in the know.

[4thHorseman]

Like I said in a post elsewhere, the only things that didn't make sense to me is what I'm sure will be explained in future issues. Otherwise, I just don't really see what is so confusing about the book. It was pretty straightforward. The only thing I can see that might make it confusing is the continuity buffs who have to have everything nice and neat for them to enjoy a book. Because of Countdown/Death of New Gods/etc, it's a complete mess. But ignoring all of that, which isn't hard to do if you actually read that trash like i did, the book was quite enjoyable.

[David O Burcham]

Although I don't think the first issue was as accessible to a wider audience that a DCU-changing, mega-event of this magnitude should be (kids who've only read Superman and Batman should be able to catch on to an event like this from the start as much as the 30 year-old long-time readers), I do think the criticism is overblown.

Much the same way some people are making exagerated complaints about Trinity.

It seems to me that many of the people who gripe about Trinity being "hard to follow" and/or "nothing happens" praise Final Crisis, and vice-versa.

Those of us who liked the start of both series just shake our heads and go about our funny-book reading bidness.

[XPac]

I think Final Crisis can be confusing on 2 different levels.

If you're someone that's been following the build up to FC all along, then it's confusing since it completely ignores Countdown and Death of New Gods. In a lot of ways it's actually easier to follow the book if you aren't "in the know" so to speak... it arguably makes more sense if you ignore the build up.

If you're coming into FC cold, then you don't have to deal with the whole continuity issue... but you are sort of bombarded with very obscure characters. And issues like Darkseid suddenly being a shady club owner on earth can be sort of confusing as well.

I think Morrisons stuff can sometimes be a bit harder to just jump into for a casual reader... though that's not a knock against the writer at all. It's a first issue, which means there's a lot of exposition and explaining... and it can POSSIBLY be a bit overwhelming to some. But one or two issues into it, I don't think that will be a problem at all.

That said, I do wonder if many the first issue shouldn't have been double sized like Secret Invasion or World War Hulk. That way you can squeeze out the pre-requisite exposition, and still give a bit of extra bang for your buck. Basically, he sort of make the same mistake that Bendis did in House of M by making the first issue seem like an intro... like the event really didn't start until the next issue.

[Will.S]

That said, I do wonder if many the first issue shouldn't have been double sized like Secret Invasion or World War Hulk. That way you can squeeze out the pre-requisite exposition, and still give a bit of extra bang for your buck. Basically, he sort of make the same mistake that Bendis did in House of M by making the first issue seem like an intro... like the event really didn't start until the next issue.
Yeah, making it double sized certainly couldn't hurt.

[bigbywolf]

I didn't find either Secret Invasion or Final Crisis to be that hard to follow. I thought it was pretty obvious that the guy who woke up in bed was the Ex-Monitor (although why there is more than one Monitor is lost on me, is there more than one Anti-Monitor?)

Then again, I've only been a casual DC and Marvel reader since my daughter was born 6 years ago. I read Civil War, though I don't really remember any details, and I have not read Death of the New Gods and Countdown and quite honestly, after some of the things I've read about them, I'm in no hurry to do so.

[ultramandingo]

. I found it odd that Jon didn't know who Orion was .

....... when jordan confirms its orion " a number one cosmic hard ass " jon replys "yup" - he knew all along - i love that its not dumbed down - bring on sunny sumo and most excellent batman!

[Raker616]

I think people are too obssesed with talking about if FC is hard to follow or not to really focus on the real short coming of this series there is no hook to it. Sorry but saying that the New Gods are gonna re-appear after just killing them off is not enough neither is saying evil finally wins when evil has been kicking good's butt for a while now. FC gives me no reason to care or really even be interested in a huge event at least with Infinite Crisis there was a hook, unless you're a Morrison apologist there is really nothing to enjoy about FC #1 at all.

[Tanjint]

I guess I see a few hooks

-People are going to have to account for the death's of Jonn Jonnz and Orion. Period.

-This dude Libra seems to have a plan. Who is he under that mask? Is he human?

-Batman is characterized awesomely and drawn well..what else do you want?

-How is the story going to span all of existence? I want to know.

-So there's a whole Monitor Corps? That's fascinating. As someone else asked..is there an anti-monitor corps? Was the anti-monitor just a rogue monitor?

-What's gonna happen with Barry Allen?


and the art rocks. and it still will with Pacheco because Pacheco rocks.

-T

[Herr Mike]

WHAT was happening was quite clear. WHY it was happening was not.

[carabas]

Tht is because it's an eight-issue mini and not a one-shot.

[DeadXMan]

WHAT was happening was quite clear. WHY it was happening was not.

exactly, what the was countdown for other then to basterdised everything Kirby brouht to the DCU

[Dorsai]

As a story that stands on its own, I didn't find FC very engaging. Morrison typically seems to fill his opening scenes with unconnected randomness but there was nothing that really made me want to find out how it is all connected. I have read a lot of Morrison's work and this is definitely not the strongest thing he has produced. Like all entertainment, writing is subjective but that is my opinion nonetheless.

The story gets more interesting if you read interviews, do some web crawling, and read the forum posts. But seriously, if that is what it takes for me to get interested in a book, I'll just skip the title.

From what I have seen on the boards, I'm not alone in feeling that way and that really isn't a good thing. DC is down to about 2% of my monthly comic book budget and Manhunter coming back on the shelves accounts for half of that. Even though I read more events and mini-series than ongoings, I still used to put about 10%-15% towards DC books. If FC and Trinity are what we as readers will expect in the future, I see a time not too far from now where I will be reading DC in trade only. And as I mentioned, the bad thing is that I'm not alone in thinking that way.

[Shellhead]

WHAT was happening was quite clear. WHY it was happening was not.

Actually, Morrison covered the WHY even better than most comics. Why are neanderthals attacking cro-magnons? Why is there a dead New God in a dumpster? Why are Mirror Master and Doctor Light attacking those heroes? Why is Darkseid turning kids into zombies? Because humans (and humanoids in general) tend to resolve conflicts with violence and use any available technology to that end. Most comics just assume that it's because bad guys being bad for the sake of badness.

I took a sociology class in college about War and Peace. On the first day of class, the instructor told us that we could only deduce the existence of peace from the brief intervals between warfare throughout human history. One of the students was from somewhere in east Africa, and he expressed disappointment that this class would not teach him how to solve the problem of war. He dropped the class.

[Herr Mike]

I only read it once, so that could be my problem, and I probably don't have much reading comprehension (hey, I do read comicbooks, after all), but here is what I got out of it:

Anthro, a cave man, gets fire from Metron, a New God. Why? I dunno.

Turpin is wondering around and finds Orion, dead in a dumpster. He mutters "Super muk muk".

Renee Montoya jumps off a bridge.

There is another gathering of super villains. DC loves these, I can tell. A mysterious "Libra" presides. He wants evil to win over good, since good always wins. Why he wants this, we aren't told. It's an easy sell to the villains.

Martian Manhunter, who had a terrible redesign at some point, gets keeled.

[carabas]

Anthro, a cave man, gets fire from Metron, a New God. Why? I dunno.

There is another gathering of super villains. DC loves these, I can tell. A mysterious "Libra" presides. He wants evil to win over good, since good always wins. Why he wants this, we aren't told. It's an easy sell to the villains.
These two events are connected.
Libra doesn't want evil to win over good though. Libra knows that evil has already won over good, and good is just now starting to find this out (cue one dead Martian).

Throughout humanity's history, the New Gods have helped them (as shown in the opening pages, and also in 7 Soldiers where the New Gods create the very first superhero, Aurakles [but you do not need to read 7 Soldiers at all to understand this because Final Crisis opens with a very similar event]).

It's like Libra said, the villains never really win not because the heroes are stronger, but because the moral imperative of the universe favours good. And what Libra knows and what the rest of the DCU is about to find out, is that the Darkseid has finally won the celestial war, and that the shoe is on the other foot now.

[ultramandingo]

unless you're a Morrison apologist

......... bwah ! i also apologize for the first ten minutes of "2001" - the first track of sonic youths " day dream nation " and the first chapter of " naked lunch " - sorry about that - unless you wana wait till the frikin thing is finished

[Choppa]

The thing is, it's not the beginning issue, so it should be clear what's going on from teh get go. DC published 60+ titles that lead up to this and then gives us more setup. The first issue didn't even have a big moment in it. Enough fricken preparation already, hit us with the big stuff. There's only 7 issues for pete's sake.

[lonewolf23k]

Okay, I'm pretty sure it's not that hard to get into, but honestly? I'm just not interested.

[Raker616]

I guess I see a few hooks

-People are going to have to account for the death's of Jonn Jonnz and Orion. Period.

-This dude Libra seems to have a plan. Who is he under that mask? Is he human?

-Batman is characterized awesomely and drawn well..what else do you want?

-How is the story going to span all of existence? I want to know.

-So there's a whole Monitor Corps? That's fascinating. As someone else asked..is there an anti-monitor corps? Was the anti-monitor just a rogue monitor?

-What's gonna happen with Barry Allen?


and the art rocks. and it still will with Pacheco because Pacheco rocks.

-T

1. Like Dr. Light accounted for what he did, sorry but DC hasn't exactly been good at paying back villans for all the crap they've done over the years.

2. Eh, unless the reveal is truly amazing i'm not too interested in who is in the mask considering big reveals usually suck anyway from both Marvel and DC.

3. I can't stand Batman so this does nothing for me.

4. Not interested in this at all.

5. Aside from The Anti-Monitor, the entire Monitor storyline is yet another of the many build ups to FC that I could care less about.

6. DC has screwed around with Barry Allen fan's for years now they have no credibility left and until they make the announcement officially that he is back for good. I'll count this as yet another Barry Allen tease by Dan and co. to drum up hype and sales for their big events because that's usually their trump card for these things.

7. The art may rock but, unless the story interest me it in no way will make me pick up something I don't want to just because it looks good.

If you are enjoying FC then good, go ahead and forget the haters but I have a feeling that alot of people are not happy with this event and it will blow up in DC's face thanks to DC editiorial and Grant Morrison.

[edogawa1983]

Final Crisis 1 the problem for me I think, it's not very exciting, it didn't end with a bang to make me want to read more.

let's use Secret Invasion as an example, it had like three plot point that sort of excited me, the ship full of retro heroes, massive skrull ship invading, and Reed getting shot in the head.

Final Crisis had what, Martian Manhunter dying is a really punk way? we watch a TV report of Ollie swearing vengeance? kind of lame in my opinion.

I actually think Final Crisis is better written than Secret Invasion 1, but it's just not as entertaining and exciting as Secret Invasion, it's not what a summer event should be. I think Final Crisis might turn out to be the better story, but SI in my opinion will be more entertaining and exciting.

[LtMarvel]

Dr. Light gets what coming to him in one of the FC spinoffs.

[Herr Mike]

It's like Libra said, the villains never really win not because the heroes are stronger, but because the moral imperative of the universe favours good. And what Libra knows and what the rest of the DCU is about to find out, is that the Darkseid has finally won the celestial war, and that the shoe is on the other foot now.

Darkseid won the Celestial War off-panel? Or was that in Countdown or something?

[XPac]

Darkseid won the Celestial War off-panel? Or was that in Countdown or something?

Happened off panel, because he clearly lost in Countdown. And that was after Darkseid kinda lost in Death of New Gods too. I guess for Darkseid, third time was the charm.

Pretty horrible way to build up Darkseid though, now that I think about it.

[carabas]

Darkseid won the Celestial War off-panel? Or was that in Countdown or something?We didn't get to see the battle, but he (or He, probably now) mentions it on-panel in Final Crisis #1. I am expecting some flashbacks to the battle later on ythough.

Pretty horrible way to build up Darkseid though, now that I think about it.Yeah... no wonder people don't understand the book.

[Y The Alien]

The thing is, it's not the beginning issue, so it should be clear what's going on from teh get go.

Well, no.

With regards to the topic, yes, of course they are. Every issue is the worst ever of the comic in question, or the best ever, or it mutilates the character's entire history, or it ties it off masterfully, or it's the author's worst work and he should resign, or it's his best work and he should take over editorial and creative duties for the entire publishing line.

[Tanjint]

I guess I'm just biased. I made a decision a long time ago to read every Batman story that Grant Morrison ever writes/has written. This falls into that category and I'm along for the ride. I made this decision because I've greatly enjoyed his work and Batman stories in the past so putting them together was like peanut butter and jelly, and I've enjoyed pretty much all of it since.

-T

[thehod]

As long as you go in with the understanding that the build up given in Countdown and Death of the New Gods is all moot (and seriously, who doesn't know that at this juncture) it's a perfectly reasonable opening issue. Not brilliant. Not awful. The proof of this particular pudding is going to be in the entire dish, not just the first mouthful.

That is, of course, unless you're the sort of fan that needs to be spoon fed every. single. last. detail. In that case, you'd probably be better off looking elsewhere.

[Shellhead]

That is, of course, unless you're the sort of fan that needs to be spoon fed every. single. last. detail. In that case, you'd probably be better off looking elsewhere.

Exactly. Writers like Bendis are happy to spoonfeed the fans, because it's also easier for the writer. Take a few ideas, make them obvious to even the dumbest reader with heavy exposition and glacial storytelling pace. Punch it up with a few good one-liners and some two-page explosions, plus some fan-service good girl artwork.

Morrison is a writer who won't insult the readers intelligence, but will instead deliver a flurry of ideas that challenge and excite an open-minded reader. Instead of delivering another generic Crisis with the stereotypical scenes, we are getting something more distinctive. Cosmic entity reduced to fast food worker. The internal affairs division of the GL Corps has just busted a famous hero with a huge black mark on his record. A boundary was crossed with Batman, one definitely not anticipated by the average comic reader. An entire pantheon fell from the heavens to Earth and is reforming in an intriguing manner.

[Sean Walsh]

As long as you go in with the understanding that the build up given in Countdown and Death of the New Gods is all moot (and seriously, who doesn't know that at this juncture) it's a perfectly reasonable opening issue. Not brilliant. Not awful. The proof of this particular pudding is going to be in the entire dish, not just the first mouthful.

......the stickler about FINAL CRISIS for me is that it's hard to just process the fact that the last year's worth of comics I read are basically meaningless.

Because a few too many times as I read #1 and 2 I kept thinking back to what happened in CD and DOTNG, and it became too confusing to keep a track of what is happening and what happened but now apparently doesn't count or has already been retconned.

Apparently, though, I have the patience of a saint so I can survive 7 issues of FINAL CRISIS. I've survived Morrison's JLA and NEW X-MEN and many other books of his and enjoyed them muchly in the process. But for what DC's put me through I think I see a cut-off point post-FC a lot clearer than I used to...

[thehod]

......the stickler about FINAL CRISIS for me is that it's hard to just process the fact that the last year's worth of comics I read are basically meaningless.

Because a few too many times as I read #1 and 2 I kept thinking back to what happened in CD and DOTNG, and it became too confusing to keep a track of what is happening and what happened but now apparently doesn't count or has already been retconned.

Just ignore it.

Seriously, its not that bloody hard to do.

Treat the story as if there were no set-up, no lead in, no build up. You've walked in on the first chapter of a story. Who cares what went before?

You don't need to read The Hobbit to appreciate Lord of the Rings, and you don't need to watch the prequals to enjoy the first Star Wars movie.

Jsut go with it.

[Pixie_Solanas]

People who claim FC is too hard to crack really should be walking around with the aid of a helmet and should only use blunt-edged scissors.

[the4thpip]

People who claim FC is too hard to crack really should be walking around with the aid of a helmet and should only use blunt-edged scissors.

The thing is, you only think you are getting it. Once the series is over, we will all point and laugh at you.

[Tanjint]

Exactly. Writers like Bendis are happy to spoonfeed the fans, because it's also easier for the writer. Take a few ideas, make them obvious to even the dumbest reader with heavy exposition and glacial storytelling pace. Punch it up with a few good one-liners and some two-page explosions, plus some fan-service good girl artwork.

Morrison is a writer who won't insult the readers intelligence, but will instead deliver a flurry of ideas that challenge and excite an open-minded reader. Instead of delivering another generic Crisis with the stereotypical scenes, we are getting something more distinctive. Cosmic entity reduced to fast food worker. The internal affairs division of the GL Corps has just busted a famous hero with a huge black mark on his record. A boundary was crossed with Batman, one definitely not anticipated by the average comic reader. An entire pantheon fell from the heavens to Earth and is reforming in an intriguing manner.

i agree with your positive remarks about Morrison, but I think bendis is really good too (in the same way the best TV is good, whereas Morrison is good in the way that the best art of any kind is good) but you say, in regards to FC2 I assume, that a boundary is crossed with Batman...what are you referring to?

also, does it have anything to do with the "John has a hell of a right hook doesn't he?" comment? That confused the HELL out of me. That's the one part of FC I don't get so far.

-T

[Shellhead]

i agree with your positive remarks about Morrison, but I think bendis is really good too (in the same way the best TV is good, whereas Morrison is good in the way that the best art of any kind is good) but you say, in regards to FC2 I assume, that a boundary is crossed with Batman...what are you referring to?


Not only did Batman get beat almost dismissively by that Alpha Lantern, but we later see him captured, screaming and on the verge of being brainwashed. This is Morrison writing this, the guy notorious for upgrading Batman to the master of prep that some fans call Batgod. Like the painful and humiliating death of J'onn in issue #1, there is a sense that DC's greatest heroes aren't just being beaten, they are being violated.

[josh straightedge]

I think people are exaggerating heavily about how hard it is to get into Final Crisis.

I only read Dini and Morrison batbooks. and I don't even read the current issues, I read the collected editions. and FC read beautifully to me.

I mean, what do you need to know?

Dan Turpin-he's in the superman cartoon for chrissakes!

Darkseid/New Gods- Have most people seriously not read Morrison's JLA? That's some basic stuff, what else do you need to know about these cats?

Martian Manhunter- In the cartoons and most League stories.

People trip out about Kamandi and Anthro but all I see is cave people and the evolution and nature of man/war etc. Anyone with a basic grasp of human history can appreciate applying superheroes to man's development. People were trying too hard to tie that stuff in to old Anthro or Kamandi stories or something (which I have never read btw)

This villain pops up and tells Lex and others that he can turn the tides of good guys winning all the time.

A monitor, which anyone who read any Crisis which is alot of people would know, gets killed and reincarnated as a human. The end.

Source material required?

Morrison's JLA or any New Gods exposure..hell these guys are in the cartoons too

either of the previous crises-just so you know what monitors are

a 7th grade educaiton-ya know, so you know about prehistoric man a little bit.

All of those are pretty popular source materials. I certainly didn't have to read death of the new gods or countdown..and I didn't.

Furthermore, i find it HILARIOUS that people are saying Secret Invasion is easier to get into than FC.

Final Crisis to me, is obviously a story that spans human life from beginning to end...so you can just view it as a big ass stand alone movie.

Secret Invasion is the result of a 3 yr+ build up of everything Bendis has been doing since he started linking Jessica Jones/Matt Murdock/Luke Cage.

I wouldn't touch secret invasion with a ten foot pole if I hadn't read all the new avengers stuff that leads into it (which i did, so I'm reading it).

Final Crisis requires almost no primer imo when SI would be very weak without all the primer.



-T

I never knew who Dan Turpin was before even reading issue 1. I've never even owned a DC book that had Anthro in it. Or Kamandi. I have much of Morrison's JLA run and there are New Gods not featured in it that are here. I also had no idea of what was going on with the Monitors currently because Countdown sucked so bad at first, I had to drop it. I did know that DC didn't follow plan and go with what Grant wrote, but even I know that if a great number of people have to have something explained to them because it's unclear, then maybe there is a problem. Maybe there's a problem when Grant has to go on the 'net to explain his story.

Understandably, DC could never do the thinkable and put up a recap page, ala Marvel and it's monthly titles. Heaven forbid they clear up the mess. Not everyone is familiar with Morrison's entire body of written work for DC. I end up here trying to get this all figured out and all people want to do is complain that a large number of people are showing up and feeling that it doesn't make a lot of sense.

Sorry about my college education getting in the way of me reading and enjoying DC comics. Maybe I should have dropped out in the 7th grade. "educaiton"? Thanks pal. Icing on the cake or whatever they taught you to put it on in school.

[Tanjint]

in later posts in the thread i address some of the stuff you just said but basically, I'm sorry and didn't mean to sound condescending.

-T

[berk]

[...] but I think bendis is really good too (in the same way the best TV is good[...]This supports something I've suspected for some time now: Bendis's popularity is firmly based on the fact that his dialogue sounds right to readers, not because it's particularly realistic - although it probably is for a certain subset of the US population - but because it sounds much like what those readers are used to hearing on their favourite American TV shows.

[pariah-1972]

This supports something I've suspected for some time now: Bendis's popularity is firmly based on the fact that his dialogue sounds right to readers, not because it's particularly realistic - although it probably is for a certain subset of the US population - but because it sounds much like what those readers are used to hearing on their favourite American TV shows.I don't think tv writing has ever been that bad.
:eek:

[Herr Mike]

I love the oh-so subtle "Bendis fans are stupid" tones that have come up. :rolleyes:

[Herr Mike]

The thing is, you only think you are getting it. Once the series is over, we will all point and laugh at you.

Hmm. I feel you are speaking directly to me, except about Seven Soldiers.

I was sure it was going to come together and make an awesome story. Nope.

[Shellhead]

I love the oh-so subtle "Bendis fans are stupid" tones that have come up. :rolleyes:

Subtlety doesn't work with Bendis fans.

[Choppa]

Well, no.

With regards to the topic, yes, of course they are. Every issue is the worst ever of the comic in question, or the best ever, or it mutilates the character's entire history, or it ties it off masterfully, or it's the author's worst work and he should resign, or it's his best work and he should take over editorial and creative duties for the entire publishing line.

No, it's not? Are you actually suggesting that Countdown, JLA #21, etc simply don't exist and that I'm making them up or something?

[Pixie_Solanas]

I love the oh-so subtle "Bendis fans are stupid" tones that have come up. :rolleyes:

Stupid? No.

Easily placated by a unchallenging storyline that would have been vetoed by the worst Archie Comics editor?

Well.....

[Tanjint]

Now now...

I like Morrison's culturally injected breakdowns of existence and the universe and cultural commentary etc.

But Bendis' more straightforward more accessible (but still intelligent in my opinion) stories have their merits and value too.

and yes I agree it is very much like TV writing, but good TV writing imo, which is seldom.

-T

[Raker616]

As much as i'm ripping Morrison for FC, I can't put him in the same league as Bendis because while Grant wrote an amazing JLA and made me tolerate Kyle. Bendis destroyed the Avengers and pretty much made sure I never picked up anything he writes, Grant has his momments but at least he has some really good stuff can't say the same for Bendis.

[Paul McEnery]

No, it's not? Are you actually suggesting that Countdown, JLA #21, etc simply don't exist and that I'm making them up or something?

Sure. Why not. As far as I'm concerned, they have as much relevance to Final Crisis as Sean O'Casey's plays to do Ulysses.

That's not the way it should be, of course; but it's the way editorial played it.

[macul]

Maybe I'm having an easier time with FC because I didn't read Countdown or any of that garbage. If I had, I'd probably be attempting to tie it altogether. That said, these stories always read better for me if I read them in trade format.

[Choppa]

Sure. Why not. As far as I'm concerned, they have as much relevance to Final Crisis as Sean O'Casey's plays to do Ulysses.

That's not the way it should be, of course; but it's the way editorial played it.

Well all of the events still happened. It's not the readers' fault that Morrison decided to base his story on stuff that came out of nowhere and didn't follow up on any of the loose threads that could have been used. Regardless of what happened with the editors, ultimately Morrison is responsible for his own ideas.

[Shellhead]

Well all of the events still happened. It's not the readers' fault that Morrison decided to base his story on stuff that came out of nowhere and didn't follow up on any of the loose threads that could have been used. Regardless of what happened with the editors, ultimately Morrison is responsible for his own ideas.

You're assuming that Final Crisis was written after Countdown.

[Dorsai]

You're assuming that Final Crisis was written after Countdown.

Publication dates are what will be seen by the public. A year from now, most new readers to FC are not going to crawl the web looking for year-old interviews and websites that archived the annotations. They will most likely read the stuff in the order it was published.

All of the information on what is and is not important, what does and does not precede FC, and what should and should not be considered as this story's continuity will be less and less evident over the passage of time. The further we go into the future, the further that this particular point in time in the DCU will become less clear to readers.

People can argue about blame, who was first, who was best, and what is canon. But it seems to me that because of what has happened in the last year, time will not look kindly on this event.

[ShaggyB]

I think people are exaggerating heavily about how hard it is to get into Final Crisis.


I disagree. I have been reading dc for a long time and have the tie in books. Im finding Crisis to be confusing as hell. If i didnt know what i do know id be totally lost.

That being said doesnt Morrison's writing always start like this. I'd say if you still dont get it by issue #4 then its a terrible event.

[carabas]

Publication dates are what will be seen by the public. A year from now...
A year from now, Final Crisis wll be a stand-alone hardcover graphic novel, and Countdown will be completely irrelevant.
Ten years from now, Final Crisis will still sell well, and Countdown will be a distant memory.

Well, that's what I think anyway.

[CBikle]

Well all of the events still happened. It's not the readers' fault that Morrison decided to base his story on stuff that came out of nowhere and didn't follow up on any of the loose threads that could have been used. Regardless of what happened with the editors, ultimately Morrison is responsible for his own ideas.

Morrison (according to him) wrote and finished FC waay before Countdown existed; Didio tried to create a title that would lead into FC, but there was a disconnect which seems to be on Didio's end of things, not Morrison's.

[Paul McEnery]

I disagree. I have been reading dc for a long time and have the tie in books. Im finding Crisis to be confusing as hell. If i didnt know what i do know id be totally lost.

That being said doesnt Morrison's writing always start like this. I'd say if you still dont get it by issue #4 then its a terrible event.

I remember thinking the Sublime stuff was terribly weak when I first read NewXmeNewXmeNewXmen.

Until I got to the end and went Oh.

[The Batman]

A year from now, Final Crisis wll be a stand-alone hardcover graphic novel, and Countdown will be completely irrelevant.
Ten years from now, Final Crisis will still sell well, and Countdown will be a distant memory.

Well, that's what I think anyway.

That's what I hope. I'd hate to think that Countdown will still be with us.

[Paul McEnery]

That's what I hope. I'd hate to think that Countdown will still be with us.

The poor is always with us.

[Angelo2113]

I really liked Death of the New Gods and am glad that Morrison will make a reference to it in Final Crisis #3. I doubt it was his choice to do that though, but still. And I'm sure that will be the only reference he will make.

[CBikle]

I really liked Death of the New Gods and am glad that Morrison will make a reference to it in Final Crisis #3. I doubt it was his choice to do that though, but still. And I'm sure that will be the only reference he will make.

Maybe, but I'm doubtful.

Death Of The New Gods was never supposed to happen and actually interferes with Final Crisis.

In interviews, he's pretty much said (nicely) just to forget about Countdown and DOTNG.

[Angelo2113]

Maybe, but I'm doubtful.

Death Of The New Gods was never supposed to happen and actually interferes with Final Crisis.

In interviews, he's pretty much said (nicely) just to forget about Countdown and DOTNG.

Yeah, but I thought it was interesting how Dan DiDio explained it...

"My fear was that those people who love the Kirby interpretations would feel rejected, annoyed, displaced, because you didn't see them anymore. You didn't see them. They were gone," he said. "So that's why we created the Death of the New Gods story -- to really give those characters a send-off. So we saw that interpretation come to a clean close. Not just something that would fade away."

[carabas]

"My fear was that those people who love the Kirby interpretations would feel rejected, annoyed, displaced, because you didn't see them anymore. You didn't see them. They were gone," he said. "So that's why we created the Death of the New Gods story -- to really give those characters a send-off. So we saw that interpretation come to a clean close. Not just something that would fade away."
I guess I can sort of see his point. The timing is all wrong though. Now if TDotNG had been two or so years ago, or Final Crisis delayed with at least a year, it would have been a lot better.

[Angelo2113]

I guess I can sort of see his point. The timing is all wrong though. Now if TDotNG had been two or so years ago, or Final Crisis delayed with at least a year, it would have been a lot better.

Exactly, I would've liked to have seen a Jim Starlin and Grant Morrison "War In Heaven" series that explained it all. We get a glimpse of it in Seven Soldiers, but it would've been really cool to see that glimpse into an 8-issue series.

As Grant Morrison mentions in his interview with Newsarama that "In Jack Kirby’s Fourth World books, which every right thinking human being should read, if they haven’t already..." I trust that he will be able to do the same thing that DiDio wanted Starlin to do by giving the New Gods a proper "send-off", that is if they're really dead...

[carabas]

Also, it probably should have been written by someone who at least somewhat understands the New Gods, not Jim Frelling Sterlin.

[Bamf25]

Ok, from reading this thread and a few others, as well as reading the books, I have come to few conclusions.

1. The book is not hard to understand when taken by itself
2. Excepting number 1 DC screwed up continuity so bad that they basically said FU to anyone that had been reading the past year in anticipation of FC. The confusion is arising because DC can not get its house in order, and is giving us yet another continuity band-aid which makes FC confusing in light of the past year.
3 While straight forward, FC does require knowledge of Grant Morrison's DC for deeper enjoyment
4 Becuase of 3 FC fails to an extent in its promise that FC is accessible to new readers. This does not mean the story is not understandable, but it means new readers are missing MANY of the subtle things that make a story engadging. So to some they are just not getting it.
5 For a big event new readers want to see the big names, which this story is somewhat lacking in. People know Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, and only Batman has gotten much play. Instead he brings in b and c listers, this pleases long time fans, leaves new fans cold.

Taking my above observations into account, I have very mixed feeling so far about FC. I really want to give it a chance, but I am just just getting into it.

A great writer above all else should be able to engadge people who want to read the story, regardless of if they get everything from word one, or take 90% of the story to figure it out. People pick up the book because they want to read it and want to like it. Why would I subject myself to something I know I will hate? The great writer needs to capture these people, who by difinition are interested. So far Morrison based on the very very mixed reviews has failed to capture a large potion of the audience, and this will likely reduce future sales. So even if the payoff is Hugh you must ask who will be there to see it. Can we call somebody great if it takes, extra intrerviews, special editions, and online defense?

The comic writer of the past did not have these advatages and yet chreated great charcters a legions of fans by grabbing interested people, getting them into a story with just one issue, and not needing anything else. Did the first Superman or Batman stories fully develope the character, or necessarily make perfect sense (remember comics were simpler then), no. They did however grab the reader and keep them. So by failing to engadge the reader Morrision is failing at a basic level. I hope thing shape up fast, but it strikes me a trouble for DC if they are already making so many efforts to defend the story.

[berk]

Also, it probably should have been written by someone who at least somewhat understands the New Gods, not Jim Frelling Sterlin.I suppose there's no reason they couldn't do a real War in Heaven series somewhere down the road, if they can find someone who, as you say appreciates the New Gods concept and really wanted to do it.

[DCKar2nist]

Soooo Death of the New Gods has nothing to do with Final Crisis?

[carabas]

Soooo Death of the New Gods has nothing to do with Final Crisis?Not a lot, no. But Countdown To Final Crisis is the book that had absolutely nothing to do with Final Crisis.

3 While straight forward, FC does require knowledge of Grant Morrison's DC for deeper enjoyment
I'd say that familiarity with Morrison's writing in general certainly enhances the experience, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is required.
4 Becuase of 3 FC fails to an extent in its promise that FC is accessible to new readers. This does not mean the story is not understandable, but it means new readers are missing MANY of the subtle things that make a story engadging. So to some they are just not getting it
Well, judging from many posts here, it seems that it is the newcomers who have the least problems with it, and mainly the DC loyalists who suffered throught Countdown that are having the hardests time with it.

[berk]

Not a lot, no. But Countdown To Final Crisis is the book that had absolutely nothing to do with Final Crisis.


I'd say that familiarity with Morrison's writing in general certainly enhances the experience, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is required.

Well, judging from many posts here, it seems that it is the newcomers who have the least problems with it, and mainly the DC loyalists who suffered throught Countdown that are having the hardests time with it.Yes, that certainly holds true for me. I don't know a lot about the DCU, mostly just general knowledge and stuff I've picked up on the boards. I don't know anything about the Monitors, little about the Guardians other than they're GL's bosses, never heard of Bludhaven, didn't know the names of the 3 Flashes until recently, etc. None of this is preventing me from following and enjoying the story so far. I don't feel I have to have detailed knowledge of every minute little detail to enjoy the story.

And I had read very little Morrison apart from the Filth before reading Seven Soldiers, which I thought was fantastic.

I think much if not most of the problem is fan expectations of having everything laid out for them immediately, right from the word go. Oh, they might expect a few "reveals" along the way, but that's the thing - they're expected. If all you read is comic books, then yeah, Morrison's going to be a bit of a leap. But that's a problem with comic books, not Morrison.

[Mon-el]

Also, it probably should have been written by someone who at least somewhat understands the New Gods, not Jim Frelling Sterlin.

Not that I doubt your word Carabas(I really admire that you have been so patient and tried helping many people out in the Final Crisis threads), and I can't really comment on Death of the New Gods since I didn't read it, but a counterpoint to your statement would be that Jim Starlin did indeed write and understood the New Gods well when he wrote Cosmic Odyssey.

[Herr Mike]

Ah. I was reading it, thinking this "War In Heaven" was shown in Death of the New Gods, which I never read.

But really, it wasn't shown anywhere.

[regnak]

Not that I doubt your word Carabas(I really admire that you have been so patient and tried helping many people out in the Final Crisis threads), and I can't really comment on Death of the New Gods since I didn't read it, but a counterpoint to your statement would be that Jim Starlin did indeed write and understood the New Gods well when he wrote Cosmic Odyssey.

Many New Gods fans like myself strongly disagree. His characterization of Orion in CO was terrible. If you compare for instance his reaction to Forager in Kirby's work (accepted comrade in arms) vs Starlin's ( inferior vermin), there is no comparison. Starlin was a terrible choice to write a send off for the NGs and was big reason I skipped a NG series for the first time in 20 years.

[carabas]

Not that I doubt your word Carabas(I really admire that you have been so patient and tried helping many people out in the Final Crisis threads), and I can't really comment on Death of the New Gods since I didn't read it, but a counterpoint to your statement would be that Jim Starlin did indeed write and understood the New Gods well when he wrote Cosmic Odyssey.No offencen but Cosmic Odissey and specifically the way he completely bungled the Anti-Life Equation is the reason I put him down as a writer unfit to write the New God.

[Paul McEnery]

Ah. I was reading it, thinking this "War In Heaven" was shown in Death of the New Gods, which I never read.

But really, it wasn't shown anywhere.

Well, it was -- at least, the aftermath -- in seven soldiers mister miracle 1.

[berk]

Many New Gods fans like myself strongly disagree. His characterization of Orion in CO was terrible. If you compare for instance his reaction to Forager in Kirby's work (accepted comrade in arms) vs Starlin's ( inferior vermin), there is no comparison. Starlin was a terrible choice to write a send off for the NGs and was big reason I skipped a NG series for the first time in 20 years.No offence but Cosmic Odissey and specifically the way he completely bungled the Anti-Life Equation is the reason I put him down as a writer unfit to write the New God.
Yup. I like Starlin and I love his first Warlock epic, but he is emphatically NOT the right guy for the New Gods. Cosmic Odyssey proved it and DotNG confirmed it.

It's interesting, because in that recent mini
you could see that he was trying to make up for some of the more egregious outrages he'd committed in CO; for example, I thought he tried hard to make Orion less the ridiculous oaf of CO and more the honourable warrior type. The sad thing is, he still didn't get the character right. Then there was the whole trivialization of the Source into just another humanoid cosmic so and so. The whole thing felt totally spiritless and perfunctory.

And for DC management to try to excuse the lack of coordination amongst Final Crisis, Countdown & DotNG by claiming that DotNG was meant as a sop to admirers of Kirby's "version" of the New Gods was one of the most insulting statements I've ever heard from a comics publisher. Starlin's New Gods being about as far removed from Kirby's as you can imagine. Just goes to show onaec again, if you needed any more proof, that you can't listen to a word these guys say when they're promoting product. They'll tell you black is white if they think it'll shift a few units.

[Herr Mike]

Well, it was -- at least, the aftermath -- in seven soldiers mister miracle 1.

I'd go back and re-read it, but I sold it. I wasn't smart enough to know what the heck was happening.

[Paul McEnery]

I'd go back and re-read it, but I sold it. I wasn't smart enough to know what the heck was happening.

We had a support group here -- and another to steal from over on Barbelith -- to work through the complications of Seven Soldiers. :biggrin:

This one's a piece of cake in comparison. Douglas Wolk's annotations are all you need to keep a scorecard of who's who.

[LtMarvel]

Link for the scorecard, please?

[Jeff-E]

Admitidly I am more of a Marvel fan (and a bad speller), but Secret Invasion is a easier story to get in to... I had to Wiki the hell out of stuff to figure out what was going on in FC, it's a good story so far, but I was completly lost. And in alot of ways I still am. But just trying to take it at face value so far i'm digging it, i just don't understand all of it

[Red_Knight]

My two cents:

I don't think FC is hard to get into if you are familiar with Morrison's style or at least willing to go along with the slow-burn approach he employs here. I like FC so far, although I was expecting something different. The tone and style of FC certainly seems very different from COIE and IC, which might have thrown some people for a loop.

Anyway, I do have two problems with FC:

First of all, while I didn't find it hard to get into, I have to say it is becoming increasingly hard to follow. IMHO, the focus should be on the FC mini right now. Instead, we are being bombarded with additional one shots like Requiem, Submit and Resist, and even "sub-series", such as Superman Beyond and Rogues' Revenge. I know there are tons more, but I have honestly lost track. Coming from a hardcore DC fan, that is not good.

Secondly, I really, really hope there's more to FC than Darkseid taking over the world. 'Cause if that's it, -- been there, done that. Morrison already wrote that story during his JLA run. I liked it, and I still do. Doesn't mean I want a remake, though.

[carabas]

Secondly, I really, really hope there's more to FC than Darkseid taking over the world. 'Cause if that's it, -- been there, done that. Morrison already wrote that story during his JLA run. I liked it, and I still do. Doesn't mean I want a remake, though.Well, we already know that there is more to it than Darkseid occupying Earth. Evil has not won on Earth, but on a cosmic scale. Darkseid ruling all is now the normal status quo.

Incidently, since Darkseid's occupation of Earh in Rock Of Ages happened in the future, I think it is not unlikely that the Darkseid regime from Rock Of Ages and the one from Final Crisis are one and the same.

[Sean Walsh]

Incidently, since Darkseid's occupation of Earh in Rock Of Ages happened in the future, I think it is not unlikely that the Darkseid regime from Rock Of Ages and the one from Final Crisis are one and the same.

So we all know how FINAL CRISIS ends?

*Sean saves money*

j/k :tongue:

[Hatut Zeraze]

First of all, while I didn't find it hard to get into, I have to say it is becoming increasingly hard to follow. IMHO, the focus should be on the FC mini right now. Instead, we are being bombarded with additional one shots like Requiem, Submit and Resist, and even "sub-series", such as Superman Beyond and Rogues' Revenge. I know there are tons more, but I have honestly lost track. Coming from a hardcore DC fan, that is not good.



They have told us many times that these minis and one-shots aren't necessary to enjoy Final Crisis. From the ones I've read so far, that seems to be true.

If these comics are making it harder for you to follow Final Crisis, I'd suggest not buying them. Final Crisis will still stand tall, all by itself.

[pariah-1972]

Morrison has pushed Superman Beyond in his interviews tho.

[carabas]

Well, one would think that those written by Morrison do indeed matter. He's always said that the gap between #3 and #4 would be filled by some specials.

[Red_Knight]

If these comics are making it harder for you to follow Final Crisis, I'd suggest not buying them. Final Crisis will still stand tall, all by itself.

I realize that, -- because I'm a DC nerd and frequent sites like this one. Despite that, I can't even seem to keep track of everything that's being published. IMHO, that is a problem. If I have trouble keeping up, I can't imagine how bad it might be for complete newbies or casual readers, who aren't going to do an hour of research just to find out what's out there and what matters in the grand scheme of things. DC is in the process of diluting their product here. That worries me.

[A.C.R.O.N.Y.M.]

I think one of the problems with events like this is that comic readers have become too used to having everything explained to them. One of the joys of reading a writer like Morrison is the little throw-away things he fills his work with. And anyway; since when do you need to have every little thing explained to you to enjoy a story?

Case in point: I read Final Crisis: Requiem, and I couldn't identify that one woman (dark haired one) who wrote down the history of Mars. It annoyed me a bit, but it didn't stop me from (sort of) enjoying the story. I'm fairly new to DC (the central parts of it, anyway), so of course there are elements of FC that I have to either look up or just move on without quite grasping. However, that's, in my opinion at least, a part of reading comics. It was when I was a kid and was reading Norwegian reprints of Claremont's X-Men, Byrne's Fantastic Four, Miller's Daredevil and Giffen and DeMatties' Justice League. It isn't so much anymore, because comics readers as a group have become older, and adults don't have the same patience with that kind of stuff that kids have. I do think continuity is a problem. I think it was Keith Giffen who said we should replace continuity with consistency; comics have become too much soap opera, and less focus on continuity would really only hurt the more soap opera-ish elements. I've been reading the Fourth World omnibuses recently, and a large part of the fascination is how little focus there is on characterization and inter-character relationships - it's all about new ideas and concepts. Non-stop. Which is kind of what Morrison is about.
Now I can understand how some people don't really dig his approach, and frankly, I'm a little surprized that DC gave him the job of doing FC over Geoff Johns, who is a much safer choice as well as a fine writer. I think it shows that they intend FC to be something different from the other Crises, something which the choice of JG Jones as an artist also proves. However, I guess a lot of readers will - like me - pick up FC because of Morrison's name alone.

Sorry for rambling.

[ichigaku]

First of all hiya peeps...this is my first post...so hi.....

I have liked how Morrison wrote in the past... I mean he did revitalize X-men, Batman, and in some parts JLA and superman....but as for FC is concerned like most of you... i am confused as hell... I think FC was written for the FANS of the DCU... I am not saying its a bad thing but if your a casual reader like me with Concerns with DC or if your a new reader in DCU i think it would be pretty hard for you to understand FC...

I think thats the advantage of SI over FC is the fact SI is more reader accessible than FC

[CMBMOOL]

To be honest I was more familiar with the animated form of the DC heroes and got into the DC comics within the events of Identity Crisis and so on....

So while I can understand some of the major heroes and heroines from their animated form, doesn't mean that I'm that familiar with the DCU as whole.

I mean I can understand parts of the DCU, such as the Multiverse and it's occupants, along with the JSA, the Teen Titans, and some of the major supporting characters to the major DCU heroes, but that's is about it.

[NeoStar9X]

To be honest I was more familiar with the animated form of the DC heroes and got into the DC comics within the events of Identity Crisis and so on....

So while I can understand some of the major heroes and heroines from their animated form, doesn't mean that I'm that familiar with the DCU as whole.

I mean I can understand parts of the DCU, such as the Multiverse and it's occupants, along with the JSA, the Teen Titans, and some of the major supporting characters to the major DCU heroes, but that's is about it.

The same way here. Much of my knowledge of the DC heroes came from the animated shows and even live action films. I can understand a nice bit of the core stuff. However details and a lot of past comic only material makes me scratch my head a time. The same was for Marvel as well with a LOT of material but it's easier to adjust with DC to be honest. I guess it's due to being a fan of it a lot longer due to the different animated shows.

I think if anyone has watched the animated Superman series from the 90s and Justice League/JL:Unlimited and saw the end has already been exposed to Darksied (I can't help but hear Michael Ironside's voice when I think about the character.) and talk about the Anti-Life equation and the New Gods. A basic understanding of who the major DC heroes are and some of the B tier is gained by watching shows as well. Personalities are different of course but I think that gives a good foundation to work with. However I accept there are things I'm simply not going to get unless I research it due how much has been done in the comics over the decades.

[Calybos]

If you need to be a long-time DC reader to understand the story, then the writer isn't doing his job.

This is a comic book; it needs to be accessible to all readers, even new readers, even KIDS who've never picked up a comic book in their lives. Writing just for the devoted fans isn't a good decision for a major miniseries like this.

[Jim Thompson]

If you need to be a long-time DC reader to understand the story, then the writer isn't doing his job.

This is a comic book; it needs to be accessible to all readers, even new readers, even KIDS who've never picked up a comic book in their lives. Writing just for the devoted fans isn't a good decision for a major miniseries like this.I think this book can be followed if you've never read a DC comic before -- but it certainly carries more weight if you're a long-time fan.

[Tanjint]

once more, i'm a relatively casual DC fan (though that's changing more and more all the time) and FC reads fine...though I'm a pretty rabid Morrison fan.


and once more, I wouldn't touch SI with a 50 foot stick if I hadn't read all the lead-in material.

Secret Invasion spun directly out of new avengers.


as far as I know, justice league prior to FC had jack to do with it.


i also think that's why SI is selling so much more than FC. When your best selling book leads into your event book, it may have some more effect than a mini like FC that sort of comes 'from nowhere'.


I love bothe events, but if DC wanted to milk the event money, they would have been wise to have JLA cliffhanger into FC the way NA did to SI


-T

[NeoStar9X]

Having finished reading Final Crisis #1 and #2, and standing by what I said before, I understood things just fine. Granted there were a number of characters I didn't recognize but all in most of the important characters were named. It's just background ones like at the meeting with Libra that I didn't recongize at times. The story itself wasn't hard to understand or figure out I felt.

[Sanlear]

I'm enjoying Final Crisis alot more than Secret Invasion at the moment, although to be fair I've been making the switch from Marvel to DC for awhile now and am starting to get biased. :)

[Tanjint]

i didn't want to say it till after I got back from comicon, but I'm finding myself sort of making that switch as well....I guess...and my friend at my LCS was saying this the other day....DC seems to give their stories more resolution than Marvel does.

I think that is true to a degree, but it's not that Marvel doesn't give resolution but because the most decompressed writer in the history of comics is essentially running the universe, it just takes a lot longer to get to that resolution.

We're not gonna see most of the stories that currently dominat the MU resolved until Bendis leaves the 616.

-T

[Choppa]

If you need to be a long-time DC reader to understand the story, then the writer isn't doing his job.

This is a comic book; it needs to be accessible to all readers, even new readers, even KIDS who've never picked up a comic book in their lives. Writing just for the devoted fans isn't a good decision for a major miniseries like this.

I didn't realize that there was some kind rule about comic books having to accessible to new readers. While a major story like this may benefit from that, I don't think it holds true of every comic book.

[carabas]

And judging from a lot of posts in the various "what the frell is FC about" threads, the story is a lot more accessible to new readers than it is to continuity junkies who simply need to know every last detail about every last character who makes a cameo appearance.

[dotdotdot]

And judging from a lot of posts in the various "what the frell is FC about" threads, the story is a lot more accessible to new readers than it is to continuity junkies who simply need to know every last detail about every last character who makes a cameo appearance.

this post hit the nail on the head

[Jeff-E]

Ok, after reading issue 3 of FC, all I have to say/ask, is HUH????????????????? Who were the folks helping Mr.Miracle, and the Sumo dude, and who is the Sumo dude? Are we supposed to know his signifigance? (is my spelling that bad is also a pertinant question?) I'm getting lost. I admit I'm a bigger Marvel fan than DC, but I try to keep up with certain DC titles, i.e. T.T., G.L., G.L.C, and a few others, but Final Crisis is getting pretty confusing. S.I. is only a little better with the fact that the story is a bit more straight forward, Aliens trying to take over, not much more depth than that. If you really add more to SI you're giving it too much credit.

[spidervenom]

Ok, after reading issue 3 of FC, all I have to say/ask, is HUH????????????????? Who were the folks helping Mr.Miracle, and the Sumo dude, and who is the Sumo dude? Are we supposed to know his signifigance? (is my spelling that bad is also a pertinant question?) I'm getting lost. I admit I'm a bigger Marvel fan than DC, but I try to keep up with certain DC titles, i.e. T.T., G.L., G.L.C, and a few others, but Final Crisis is getting pretty confusing. S.I. is only a little better with the fact that the story is a bit more straight forward, Aliens trying to take over, not much more depth than that. If you really add more to SI you're giving it too much credit.

Did you read issue 2?

[SiddFinch68]

I think one of the problems with events like this is that comic readers have become too used to having everything explained to them. One of the joys of reading a writer like Morrison is the little throw-away things he fills his work with. And anyway; since when do you need to have every little thing explained to you to enjoy a story?

Case in point: I read Final Crisis: Requiem, and I couldn't identify that one woman (dark haired one) who wrote down the history of Mars. It annoyed me a bit, but it didn't stop me from (sort of) enjoying the story. I'm fairly new to DC (the central parts of it, anyway), so of course there are elements of FC that I have to either look up or just move on without quite grasping. However, that's, in my opinion at least, a part of reading comics. It was when I was a kid and was reading Norwegian reprints of Claremont's X-Men, Byrne's Fantastic Four, Miller's Daredevil and Giffen and DeMatties' Justice League. It isn't so much anymore, because comics readers as a group have become older, and adults don't have the same patience with that kind of stuff that kids have. I do think continuity is a problem. I think it was Keith Giffen who said we should replace continuity with consistency; comics have become too much soap opera, and less focus on continuity would really only hurt the more soap opera-ish elements. I've been reading the Fourth World omnibuses recently, and a large part of the fascination is how little focus there is on characterization and inter-character relationships - it's all about new ideas and concepts. Non-stop. Which is kind of what Morrison is about.
Now I can understand how some people don't really dig his approach, and frankly, I'm a little surprized that DC gave him the job of doing FC over Geoff Johns, who is a much safer choice as well as a fine writer. I think it shows that they intend FC to be something different from the other Crises, something which the choice of JG Jones as an artist also proves. However, I guess a lot of readers will - like me - pick up FC because of Morrison's name alone.

Sorry for rambling.

Not rambling at all - my thoughts exactly

[Shellhead]

I'm starting to wonder if excessive use of the Internet causes OCD.

[Tanjint]

whatchu talkin bout shellhead?

No but seriously, I'm not sure what you mean.

-T

[Choppa]

shoulda had geoff johns write it

[Tanjint]

I love Geoff Johns. More all the time...but he's just great at satisfyingly redoing silver-age and silver-age products. Look at his best works like SCW and Titans......he created little to none of the pieces on those boards, he's just GREAT at using the tools available to him.

He did a crisis, I don't trust that he'd have a new way to do this one...I'm tempted to say Morrison brings new ideas to a crisis in a way that other writers wouldn't have but I understand that even most Morrison stories fall under one or two of the same 3 or 4 big ideas he always plays with....but he always finds an interesting and new cultural lens to look at those ideas through. He uses new ideas to look at old ideas with....I can't see Johns doing that.

Plus there's two Johns final crisis minis for those who want that. and frankly, he didn't and couldn't have come up with FC. He's using Morrison's backdrop, that Morrison created to tell those stories over.

-T

[Shellhead]

This third issue of FC has convinced me that modern readers either don't know or have totally forgotten how to read comics that aren't decompressed.

With decompressed comics, you get page after page after page of overwhelmingly obvious and sometimes even very cliched conversations and action. The only sane way to read a decompressed comic is to skim along until the dramatic reveal at the end of each issue.

Non-decompressed comics require a more studied pace, because the pages tend to be more densely packed with information, characterization, plot developments and concepts. Skim a non-decompressed comic, and you just might struggle to comprehend what you just skimmed.

[Shellhead]

It's too bad that we didn't have this forum back in the mid-80s, during Crisis on Infinite Earths. Then we might have seen similar posts from confused readers.

Who is this ape wearing a red cape? I've never heard of him, and it's totally ridiculous that Marv Wolfman expects me to know him. There are too many characters and not enough character development. I just started reading DC comics and I resent all of these alternate realities. Killer Frost is being written completely out of character. I hate that I need to buy all of these crossover issues. Who is this Monitor and what are all of his powers? Who is the Anti-Monitor and what are all of his powers and previous appearances? Blah, blah, blah.

[Choppa]

^LOL, that was great

[Paul Newell]

It's too bad that we didn't have this forum back in the mid-80s, during Crisis on Infinite Earths. Then we might have seen similar posts from confused readers.

Who is this ape wearing a red cape? I've never heard of him, and it's totally ridiculous that Marv Wolfman expects me to know him. There are too many characters and not enough character development. I just started reading DC comics and I resent all of these alternate realities. Killer Frost is being written completely out of character. I hate that I need to buy all of these crossover issues. Who is this Monitor and what are all of his powers? Who is the Anti-Monitor and what are all of his powers and previous appearances? Blah, blah, blah.

CURSE YOU DICK GIORDANO FOR RUINING THE DC UNIVERSE!!!!!

[Jack Tango]

Not a lot, no. But Countdown To Final Crisis is the book that had absolutely nothing to do with Final Crisis.


I'd say that familiarity with Morrison's writing in general certainly enhances the experience, but I wouldn't go as far as saying that it is required.

Well, judging from many posts here, it seems that it is the newcomers who have the least problems with it, and mainly the DC loyalists who suffered throught Countdown that are having the hardests time with it.

I'm a DC Loyalist, and I'm having no problem with it.

[carabas]

I'm a DC Loyalist, and I'm having no problem with it.Well, it was a generalisation based on limited observations, not a writ in stone rule.

[Kelson]

I'm starting to wonder if excessive use of the Internet causes OCD.

Not sure about OCD, but I've seen people talk about Internet use leading to "attention deficit trait (http://news.cnet.com/Why-cant-you-pay-attention-anymore/2008-1022_3-5637632.html)"

[Jack Tango]

Well, it was a generalisation based on limited observations, not a writ in stone rule.

PHEW! ;-)

I got that, though. :-) What I meant to say was, I think there's ways for long-time readers to be absolutely fine with things, and it usually involves saying, "Okay, just forget about that."

I mean, sure, I'm a little bummed about buying all of Countdown; I thought it was going to have something GOOD to do with Final Crisis. Same with Death of the New Gods.

In it's stead, I'm taking the explanation that some major beats happened in both stories, but basically Final Crisis is the one that makes sense. If the others don't work, I don't care.

[Paul McEnery]

Not sure about OCD, but I've seen people talk about Internet use leading to "attention deficit trait (http://news.cnet.com/Why-cant-you-pay-attention-anymore/2008-1022_3-5637632.html)"

That's a very useful little idea.

I don't know how much it's the Internet itself, though -- though I know that's partly true -- as much as it's people's inclinations to goof off at work.

[Chemical King]

It's too bad that we didn't have this forum back in the mid-80s, during Crisis on Infinite Earths. Then we might have seen similar posts from confused readers.

Who is this ape wearing a red cape? I've never heard of him, and it's totally ridiculous that Marv Wolfman expects me to know him. There are too many characters and not enough character development. I just started reading DC comics and I resent all of these alternate realities. Killer Frost is being written completely out of character. I hate that I need to buy all of these crossover issues. Who is this Monitor and what are all of his powers? Who is the Anti-Monitor and what are all of his powers and previous appearances? Blah, blah, blah.

Great posting! But I have to say that it was not necessary to buy any crossover titles (and were there any spin offs? I doubt it...) to get the main story of Crisis on Infinite Earth. Of course growing up as a DC child devouring anything NOT Wonder Woman - thus, you were familiar with most of the cast, even the less known characters. Being a Titans and Legion collector out of the DC Mainverse picture except for GL and JSA for many years certainly diminished the percentage of known characters jumping around in Final Crisis for me... but I really have the feeling that there are so many characters in Final Crisis, the classic crisis looks like a minor class reunion to me :)

[carabas]

I am not convinced Crisis On Infinite Earths even had a main story.

[Chemical King]

I am not convinced Crisis On Infinite Earths even had a main story.

It had a very simple story :)

[Paul McEnery]

I am not convinced Crisis On Infinite Earths even had a main story.

Sure it did. It was all about the new Wildcat finding herself. :biggrin:

[Chemical King]

Sure it did. It was all about the new Wildcat finding herself. :biggrin:

Wasn't it about Kid Psycho dying? :rolleyes:

[Paul McEnery]

I am now confused as to which thread I'm having this conversation with Chemical Kid.

So here, then, from today's Comics Should Be Good:

The only things I’ve had imposed on me at Marvel are those stupid ‘PREVIOUSLY’ pages which nobody reads anyway. Everything anyone needs to know is there in the story so I really don’t understand the fascination for these ugly text pages - they look like ’60s DC’s.

[Tanjint]

those previously pages are annoying indeed

-T

[Chemical King]

those previously pages are annoying indeed

-T

Interesting. I find them very helpful considering the fact that mostly, there are at least 30 days between issues and in that time, I usually am reading a gazillion of other stuff so a short update - the same that TV shows are doing nowadays though there are only seven days in between episodes - makes me focus on the book at hand... of course there are books where this is rather necessary - and other books which are written so good that you don't need a synopsis.

[Union Jack]

Interesting. I find them very helpful considering the fact that mostly, there are at least 30 days between issues and in that time, I usually am reading a gazillion of other stuff so a short update - the same that TV shows are doing nowadays though there are only seven days in between episodes - makes me focus on the book at hand... of course there are books where this is rather necessary - and other books which are written so good that you don't need a synopsis.

I agree totally.

I always read the "previously" pages, even if i'm reading two issues of one comic in succession.

Thats not to say that i think D.C. should start doing them...

[Paul McEnery]

Interesting. I find them very helpful considering the fact that mostly, there are at least 30 days between issues and in that time, I usually am reading a gazillion of other stuff so a short update - the same that TV shows are doing nowadays though there are only seven days in between episodes - makes me focus on the book at hand... of course there are books where this is rather necessary - and other books which are written so good that you don't need a synopsis.

Depends how you're reading the books.

The way I look at it, if you're reading the floppies, then you takes your lumps. The trades pretty much outsell the floppies for anything that's worth a damn -- something DC still hasn't quite figured out, btw (why not cross-market Rushkoff's book to Morrison fans, for instance?).

One thing with COIE -- it reads incredibly scrappy and too expository in collection, because nobody thought about the collection. As for FC, it's like Hardy or Dickens -- everyone knows it's going to be collected, so it's written like individual chapters of something you've got the whole lot of in your hands, because that's what it is. It just isn't that yet.

[Chemical King]

Depends how you're reading the books.

The way I look at it, if you're reading the floppies, then you takes your lumps. The trades pretty much outsell the floppies for anything that's worth a damn -- something DC still hasn't quite figured out, btw (why not cross-market Rushkoff's book to Morrison fans, for instance?).

One thing with COIE -- it reads incredibly scrappy and too expository in collection, because nobody thought about the collection. As for FC, it's like Hardy or Dickens -- everyone knows it's going to be collected, so it's written like individual chapters of something you've got the whole lot of in your hands, because that's what it is. It just isn't that yet.

That's certainly right. Maybe - hopefully - the whole story will be clearer once it's over. It will be easier skipping over Father Time and consorts when you already know: That was just a nice cameo to plead some fans - doesn't really matter who it was.

But that's a very general discussion we're going to. Does the monthly format have any future at all when so many people are waiting for the Trades? And what should the Trades collect if there would be no more monthlies?

I'm just not patient enough to wait for the Trades in the big events. I even went back to buying single issues of series I really like like Fables. I guess I would die of curiosity is I had to wait for the Trade of "Legion of Three worlds". But that's just me... and the Trade market certainly has exploded the last five years...

[Paul McEnery]

That's certainly right. Maybe - hopefully - the whole story will be clearer once it's over. It will be easier skipping over Father Time and consorts when you already know: That was just a nice cameo to plead some fans - doesn't really matter who it was.

But that's a very general discussion we're going to. Does the monthly format have any future at all when so many people are waiting for the Trades? And what should the Trades collect if there would be no more monthlies?

I'm just not patient enough to wait for the Trades in the big events. I even went back to buying single issues of series I really like like Fables. I guess I would die of curiosity is I had to wait for the Trade of "Legion of Three worlds". But that's just me... and the Trade market certainly has exploded the last five years...

Or horribly frustrating when you find out they're an integral part of the plot, and now you have to go mug up on Seven Soldiers to find out what's going on, which means you have to read the whole thread here and the whole of Barbelith to understand what happened, while Grant cackles all the way to the bank. :evilsmile:

I'd rather wait for the trade with Fables, because Willingham writes whole stories for the trade.

At this point, the only thing that makes me buy the floppy is FC, partly because Grant's always got his finger on the zeitgeist, but mostly for the internet jibber-jabber, and the fun of thinking about what the hell is going on.

[Chemical King]

Or horribly frustrating when you find out they're an integral part of the plot, and now you have to go mug up on Seven Soldiers to find out what's going on, which means you have to read the whole thread here and the whole of Barbelith to understand what happened, while Grant cackles all the way to the bank. :evilsmile:

I'd rather wait for the trade with Fables, because Willingham writes whole stories for the trade.

At this point, the only thing that makes me buy the floppy is FC, partly because Grant's always got his finger on the zeitgeist, but mostly for the internet jibber-jabber, and the fun of thinking about what the hell is going on.

Ah I don't think so - the main reason I never got into this Seven Soldiers stuff was that I was not interested in one single character featured in all those mini-series :rolleyes:

I don't know about only buying trades, though. Half the fun for me is getting the monthlies and switching from book to book, seeing what's going on here, what's happening there, rereading some older issues (thus having the whole story as well)... but certainly it's right that people like Willingham have a great roadmap and it's a lot more fun to read it all in one big sweep. I read the first two storylines of Fables (single issues) and quit the book then because I was no longer interested. Much later, I read the next four storylines as Trades and I was absolutely enthusiastic and haven't missed a Trade since then. But just now as the big #75 approached, I could no longer wait and went back to single issues... but I haven't even had the time to read the Good Prince yet.

[Paul McEnery]

Half the fun for me is getting the monthlies and switching from book to book, seeing what's going on here,

Then it seems to me you'd get a kick out of Seven Soldiers! Because that's exactly how it is.

Once you get over the fact that the characters aren't the ones you're used to. :biggrin:

[misterwinter]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so if I'm repeating something that's already been said, I apologize.

For me, Final Crisis has been a difficult, but enjoyable read.

That said, I would imagine that "how hard" it is to get into Final Crisis would vary from reader to reader, and would be subject to that reader's experience with the DC Universe, their familiarity with (and willingness to explore) certain themes, their attention to detail and other factors.

In my case, I'm only familiar with the DC Universe on a pretty superficial level. I used to read a few Superman and Batman titles, and then took a break from comics for about 15 years. So I'm familiar with the key heroes and villains of the DC Unvierse, but with little else.

I've gotten back into comic books recently and was encouraged to read "Final Crisis." I'm glad that I did, even though it has meant that I've spent a lot of time on the Internet (Wikipedia, the DC Database and other sites) reading up on characters and concepts as I've encountered them (e.g. the Black Racer, Dan Turpin, the Question, Motherboxxx, Boom tubes, the New Gods, etc.).

Also, at the risk of hijacking this thread, I've noticed that there are a number of sister titles out right now (Requiem, Revelations, etc.). If I was interested in reading one or more of them, which one(s) would you folks recommend?

[Paul McEnery]

I haven't read all of the posts in this thread, so if I'm repeating something that's already been said, I apologize.

For me, Final Crisis has been a difficult, but enjoyable read.

That said, I would imagine that "how hard" it is to get into Final Crisis would vary from reader to reader, and would be subject to that reader's experience with the DC Universe, their familiarity with (and willingness to explore) certain themes, their attention to detail and other factors.

In my case, I'm only familiar with the DC Universe on a pretty superficial level. I used to read a few Superman and Batman titles, and then took a break from comics for about 15 years. So I'm familiar with the key heroes and villains of the DC Unvierse, but with little else.

I've gotten back into comic books recently and was encouraged to read "Final Crisis." I'm glad that I did, even though it has meant that I've spent a lot of time on the Internet (Wikipedia, the DC Database and other sites) reading up on characters and concepts as I've encountered them (e.g. the Black Racer, Dan Turpin, the Question, Motherboxxx, Boom tubes, the New Gods, etc.).

Also, at the risk of hijacking this thread, I've noticed that there are a number of sister titles out right now (Requiem, Revelations, etc.). If I was interested in reading one or more of them, which one(s) would you folks recommend?

I don't know that I'd recommend any of them yet. The vital one will be Superman Beyond, which follows on directly from FC 3.

And it's good to see that somebody gets Grant's hypertextual technique!

[Jeff-E]

Did you read issue 2?

I read it, but I've never seen those guys before. And they act like the Sumo dude has alterior signifigance. I'm also a little confused on why Darkseid is now the Kingpin from the DareDevil movie, and why Granny is now DaBrat age 55... good story, and I'm digging issue 3, but i'm a little/lot lost

[Mat001]

I read it, but I've never seen those guys before. And they act like the Sumo dude has alterior signifigance.

He does. That will come out in the next couple of issues.

I'm also a little confused on why Darkseid is now the Kingpin from the DareDevil movie, and why Granny is now DaBrat age 55... good story, and I'm digging issue 3, but i'm a little/lot lost

That's because the Evil Gods are possessing the bodies of various humans on Earth. Re-read the Dan Turpin and Boss Dark Side scene from issue one and then the Dan Turpin in the Evil Factory from issue two.

[Paul McEnery]

I read it, but I've never seen those guys before. And they act like the Sumo dude has alterior signifigance.

Reckon so.

Sonny Sumo was kind of a butch buddha in the Forever People. And Mister Miracle was kind of a butch jesus.

Who else would you want to take down the personfication of Evil?

Bill Murray?

[dotdotdot]

Reckon so.

Sonny Sumo was kind of a butch buddha in the Forever People. And Mister Miracle was kind of a butch jesus.

Who else would you want to take down the personfication of Evil?

Bill Murray?

man when you put it like that

[Jeff-E]

He does. That will come out in the next couple of issues.



That's because the Evil Gods are possessing the bodies of various humans on Earth. Re-read the Dan Turpin and Boss Dark Side scene from issue one and then the Dan Turpin in the Evil Factory from issue two.

I knew they were inhabiting bodies of humans, but my questions were... Why, and when did it happen? I gotta do some back issue digging. But I am digging waiting to find out who Sumo-Dude is and alot of the story is great, I'm just lost.

[Black Vespa]

it's not a difficult story to follow because of how thick the reading is. I think a part of the problem in part is due the Editors that put this crap together, - you here for six months,"it's coming" ..."here it comes"....and ....plop, a gaggle of various comics come flutterin out of the sky, -so non-linear that it comes across as a jumbled mess. it's not very fun to get into, and if you've got to invest in the last year's library of dc comics, then it's gonna ultimately fail.

[Paul McEnery]

it's not a difficult story to follow because of how thick the reading is. I think a part of the problem in part is due the Editors that put this crap together, - you here for six months,"it's coming" ..."here it comes"....and ....plop, a gaggle of various comics come flutterin out of the sky, -so non-linear that it comes across as a jumbled mess. it's not very fun to get into, and if you've got to invest in the last year's library of dc comics, then it's gonna ultimately fail.

except, of course, that you don't have to. in fact, it's the last thing you want to do.

[Mat001]

I knew they were inhabiting bodies of humans, but my questions were... Why, and when did it happen? I gotta do some back issue digging. But I am digging waiting to find out who Sumo-Dude is and alot of the story is great, I'm just lost.

It happened in "Death Of The New Gods", "Countdown To Final Crisis" and DC Universe #0.

[4thHorseman]

I knew they were inhabiting bodies of humans, but my questions were... Why, and when did it happen? I gotta do some back issue digging. But I am digging waiting to find out who Sumo-Dude is and alot of the story is great, I'm just lost.

Involving Sonny Sumo, The Forever People

with the inhabiting of the bodies, Mr. Miracle (from the 7 Soldiers story) mini

[Harding Prime]

First of all, why would people exaggerate not understanding a book, to sound dumber?

I don't think that the broad scope of the book is hard to read, I just find that the little things make no sense without being an avid follower of Morrison. I didn't read Seven Soldiers, so I don't know who a lot of the supporting cast is. And the big difference between FC and SI is Bendis at least lay's it all out for you. He explains what is going on and why we are in the situation now, and how we got to this point. Morrison gives you no information, nothing to jog your memory but little things you will probably miss in the picture. For example, the opening scene of FC #3, there was no information about where we were or who these characters are, I don't know who Frankenstein is or why we works with a special police squad in New York. Would it be impossible for Morrison to put a blurb saying "New York City" or "Darkside Club" or "Frankenstein"? No, because every other comic does it. SI does it, even Brubaker has added the "Previously" page to the Cap title. And he always says where we are or who a certain character is if they have not been introduced in this title. But Morrison expects us to remember what the un named Darkside Club looks like, by the bridge in the back round, or the van by the street light next to the building. Whatever, I might be able to notice these nuances if I hadn't been two months since I read the previous book that your referencing. I am not bashing the book, I do enjoy it, I don't even mind doing some digging to see what I might be missing, but it just doesn't have to be that hard to enjoy good writing.

[Mat001]

Actually, he addressed that here. (http://comics.ign.com/articles/902/902992p1.html)

I chose to dispense with thought balloons, interior monologues and 'dateline' style captions. It's not a new approach: it's how I write All Star Superman and Batman and it's done to add a sense of 'realism' - the real world tends not to have explanatory captions floating over people's heads, you know. When we get into unusual situations, there's rarely a handy thought balloon or editor's note to help us out, so I figured I could use that effect as a way of making Final Crisis at least 'feel' different from its predecessors.

And actually, the reaction has been quite bizarre, to me. [laughs] This thing to me is just straight up, 'this happens, then this happens' straightforward storytelling, like the type you get in movies and TV, and yet I've seen a few people online having real trouble with the basics. In a lot of cases, it comes down to patience - everything will link up and be explained by the time the story's over and not before. If you can't be bothered waiting for answers and want the whole story at once, you'll be driven mad. It's serialized. That's just the way it is.

I can't really be expected to care about, let alone pander to, the sort of people who respond to my work with personal insults and slanders, but I'm also not deliberately trying to annoy them. Ultimately, I'm more interested in writing for the majority who've been buying the book and enjoying it.

[Jeff-E]

First of all, why would people exaggerate not understanding a book, to sound dumber?

I don't think that the broad scope of the book is hard to read, I just find that the little things make no sense without being an avid follower of Morrison. I didn't read Seven Soldiers, so I don't know who a lot of the supporting cast is. And the big difference between FC and SI is Bendis at least lay's it all out for you. He explains what is going on and why we are in the situation now, and how we got to this point. Morrison gives you no information, nothing to jog your memory but little things you will probably miss in the picture. For example, the opening scene of FC #3, there was no information about where we were or who these characters are, I don't know who Frankenstein is or why we works with a special police squad in New York. Would it be impossible for Morrison to put a blurb saying "New York City" or "Darkside Club" or "Frankenstein"? No, because every other comic does it. SI does it, even Brubaker has added the "Previously" page to the Cap title. And he always says where we are or who a certain character is if they have not been introduced in this title. But Morrison expects us to remember what the un named Darkside Club looks like, by the bridge in the back round, or the van by the street light next to the building. Whatever, I might be able to notice these nuances if I hadn't been two months since I read the previous book that your referencing. I am not bashing the book, I do enjoy it, I don't even mind doing some digging to see what I might be missing, but it just doesn't have to be that hard to enjoy good writing.

This is part of my problem (not the comics) I know nothing about the 7 soldiers series... I probably would have picked up the Mr.Miracle chapters, but didn't get around to it. Also, on average I'm not a fan of Morrisons, I really didn't know this was going to hurt my understanding of the story. I realize there is no internal monlogues or back story explanations of events in "real life" but we're reading a comic, so when something odd comes at us from a semi-obscure series (7 soldiers, I understand not a ton of people, some, just not a lot of people picked it up) letting us know whats happening isn't a horrible idea... or maybe its just me

[Paul McEnery]

This is part of my problem (not the comics) I know nothing about the 7 soldiers series... I probably would have picked up the Mr.Miracle chapters, but didn't get around to it. Also, on average I'm not a fan of Morrisons, I really didn't know this was going to hurt my understanding of the story. I realize there is no internal monlogues or back story explanations of events in "real life" but we're reading a comic, so when something odd comes at us from a semi-obscure series (7 soldiers, I understand not a ton of people, some, just not a lot of people picked it up) letting us know whats happening isn't a horrible idea... or maybe its just me

Think of Seven Soldiers and Final Crisis as expansion packs of each other.

If you'd read Animal Man or the salient parts of 52, it would also add to the story.

But not, I think, any more necessary than reading the whole Fourth World series -- which adds quite a lot to the experience, but only in the same way that having all of The Fall's albums is more satisfying than having just the one.

[Calybos]

Actually, he addressed that here.

I chose to dispense with thought balloons, interior monologues and 'dateline' style captions. It's not a new approach: it's how I write All Star Superman and Batman and it's done to add a sense of 'realism' - the real world tends not to have explanatory captions floating over people's heads, you know.

[/URL]

And there you have the problem. Realism is bad, not good.

[Kid Kamikaze10]

And there you have the problem. Realism is bad, not good.

It's a matter of execution.

[Mat001]

This is part of my problem (not the comics) I know nothing about the 7 soldiers series... I probably would have picked up the Mr.Miracle chapters, but didn't get around to it. Also, on average I'm not a fan of Morrisons, I really didn't know this was going to hurt my understanding of the story. I realize there is no internal monlogues or back story explanations of events in "real life" but we're reading a comic, so when something odd comes at us from a semi-obscure series (7 soldiers, I understand not a ton of people, some, just not a lot of people picked it up) letting us know whats happening isn't a horrible idea... or maybe its just me

Actually, you don't have to read "7 Soldiers" to understand what is going on. I didn't and I understand just perfectly what is happening. Morrison and Didio have also said that you don't have to read it. If you want to, that's fine. But it's not a requirement.

[dotdotdot]

First of all, why would people exaggerate not understanding a book, to sound dumber?

I don't think that the broad scope of the book is hard to read, I just find that the little things make no sense without being an avid follower of Morrison. I didn't read Seven Soldiers, so I don't know who a lot of the supporting cast is. And the big difference between FC and SI is Bendis at least lay's it all out for you. He explains what is going on and why we are in the situation now, and how we got to this point. Morrison gives you no information, nothing to jog your memory but little things you will probably miss in the picture. For example, the opening scene of FC #3, there was no information about where we were or who these characters are, I don't know who Frankenstein is or why we works with a special police squad in New York. Would it be impossible for Morrison to put a blurb saying "New York City" or "Darkside Club" or "Frankenstein"? No, because every other comic does it. SI does it, even Brubaker has added the "Previously" page to the Cap title. And he always says where we are or who a certain character is if they have not been introduced in this title. But Morrison expects us to remember what the un named Darkside Club looks like, by the bridge in the back round, or the van by the street light next to the building. Whatever, I might be able to notice these nuances if I hadn't been two months since I read the previous book that your referencing. I am not bashing the book, I do enjoy it, I don't even mind doing some digging to see what I might be missing, but it just doesn't have to be that hard to enjoy good writing.

i guess you wanted a blurb that said "frankenstein. s.h.a.d.e. recruit" or something. which those panels tell you anyway. why is frankenstein around? oh there's a series about him, so it's up to you to pick that up or not, but the question of his presence is in no way important in the issue or in this story.
and the characters tell you about the dark side club, and then theres a big omega symbol over the door.......these just weren't things people wrestled with. and i don't mean the elite, i mean most people who read the issue. of course there are sometimes people who are a bit confused by any given superhero comic, and this comes down to speed of reading, experience with panel layouts, writer to artist dynamics, etc.