Immortal Iron Fist #16 Preview

[Toboe]

Myspace Comic Books (http://blog.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=92159514&blogID=407348957&Mytoken=22837F17-16B4-4D70-8EDBB370452CC92115001502) has a worded preview for Matt Fraction and David Aja's final issue on the Immortal Iron Fist.

I'm impressed by the changes made to Rand International, it's certainly a more interesting approach to the use of Danny's fortune that adds something to his character.

The scene with Jeryn on the elevator is hilarious.

http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/p/marvel/ironfist16/IRONFISTV2016_int_Page_7.jpg

[The Iron Fist]

That is a great preview and a funny page. Man Iron Fist can't get any better. Look forward to #16.

[Will.S]

Man this looks so good, such a shame that this creative team is leaving but at least they have another great issue to go out with.

[The Iron Fist]

Might aswell post the rest of the pages:

http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/p/marvel/ironfist16/IRONFISTV2016_int_Page_0.jpg

http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/p/marvel/ironfist16/IRONFISTV2016_int_Page_1.jpg

http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/p/marvel/ironfist16/IRONFISTV2016_int_Page_2.jpg

http://creative.myspace.com/groups/_mcb/p/marvel/ironfist16/IRONFISTV2016_int_Page_3.jpg

[Jimmy Holograph]

Those pages are too awesome for words,:eek:

People who were complaining about Danny not being interesting, or not having any character growth can choke on their words.

I love the direction that Matt is taking Danny in, makes it all the more harder for me to realize that he won't be the one writing those stories.

And David Aja, Damn. Saving his best for last as well.

[HeckBoy]

So awesome, why can't Matt and Bru stay on for a couple more, I don't know... forever?

[taozen]

Right when it seems they were to start focusing on Danny Rand's personal development, they jump ship. Tomorrow I am going to the Heroes convention in Charlotte and Matt Fraction will be there. I will chastise him for leaving this book :frown: Damn Aja's art is so good. I wish he could have been more consistent during their run. Could you imagine if he would have drawn issues #14 and especially #15.

[claimtosubclaim]

Wow. Just... Breathtaking. I'm really gonna miss the team. They set Danny in an interesting direction, although I think they could have still done a lot with his company. It's logical for him to dismantle it though. I think I'm gonna miss Aja the most. These pages are amazing. I liked his version of Misty Knight too, which stood out from the typical afro and red costume look that she's almost always had.

[vazel]

Wow 8 pages out of 22 pages of content now that's a meaty preview.

[Toboe]

Wow 8 pages out of 22 pages of content now that's a meaty preview.

Probably because the issue is actually 32 pages.

[Shyft]

Now THATS how to be a billionaire. God i love Immortal Iron Fist.

[vazel]

Probably because the issue is actually 32 pages.Solicitations include the ads in the page count. A standard comic has 32 pages but only 22 pages are actual content.

[WorstThingUS]

I'm gonna be the voice of dissension on this page because of something only a few care about: accurate presentation of martial arts. From the beginning, due probably to its popularity understanding, the martial arts in Iron Fist and even the culture of K'un-Lun has been Chinese based. From the names to the moves, it's been more representative of wushu, which is what most people call "kung fu" ("kung fu" actually means "mastery of a discipline" so basically people like Michael Jordan and Joe Montana are "masters of kung fu" because they mastered a discipline). "Wu-shu" is the name for Chinese martial arts. "Dojo" however is Japanese and means "training hall" and that's what's being used here, not to mention everyone is wearing a "gi" which is a Japanese uniform (I won't get into the kids all having black belts). This is not to say there aren't Chinese styles which used a gi. Some sifus (teachers, as opposed to "sensei", which is Japanese) were forced to pretend their styles were Japanese while teaching overseas, so they adopted gi's and belts to disguise it, but this has never ever been present in Iron Fist and even with all the revisions done to him by Brubaker and Fraction, it's still be pretty much Chinese---until now. I just feel this is incorrect and at odds with even the recent history of Iron Fist.

And god forbid an artist learn how to draw a kick...

[Mr. Earl Brooks]

I'm gonna be the voice of dissension on this page because of something only a few care about: accurate presentation of martial arts. From the beginning, due probably to its popularity understanding, the martial arts in Iron Fist and even the culture of K'un-Lun has been Chinese based. From the names to the moves, it's been more representative of wushu, which is what most people call "kung fu" ("kung fu" actually means "mastery of a discipline" so basically people like Michael Jordan and Joe Montana are "masters of kung fu" because they mastered a discipline). "Wu-shu" is the name for Chinese martial arts. "Dojo" however is Japanese and means "training hall" and that's what's being used here, not to mention everyone is wearing a "gi" which is a Japanese uniform (I won't get into the kids all having black belts). This is not to say there aren't Chinese styles which used a gi. Some sifus (teachers, as opposed to "sensei", which is Japanese) were forced to pretend their styles were Japanese while teaching overseas, so they adopted gi's and belts to disguise it, but this has never ever been present in Iron Fist and even with all the revisions done to him by Brubaker and Fraction, it's still be pretty much Chinese---until now. I just feel this is incorrect and at odds with even the recent history of Iron Fist.

And god forbid an artist learn how to draw a kick...

Drawing from my previous experience in bothe Tae Kwon Do (Korean) and Aikido (Japanese), I can say that most American practitioners have expectations regarding the practices.

They expect the word Dojo and Sensei, and neat little uniforms like you see on TV.

Anyway, my cultural sensibilities weren't offended by the shenanigans in the pages of Iron Fist.

[Toboe]

Solicitations include the ads in the page count. A standard comic has 32 pages but only 22 pages are actual content.

And here I was all excited thinking it was gonna be a double-sized...

[rogerio]

I am gonna miss this book...:frown:

[WorstThingUS]

Drawing from my previous experience in bothe Tae Kwon Do (Korean) and Aikido (Japanese), I can say that most American practitioners have expectations regarding the practices.

They expect the word Dojo and Sensei, and neat little uniforms like you see on TV.

Anyway, my cultural sensibilities weren't offended by the shenanigans in the pages of Iron Fist.

I wasn't offended, it was just inconsistent with all we've seen in Iron Fist for the last 30 years. After all that was the boom that gave birth to Shang Chi and Iron Fist and all the other characters you see from time to time. I think kung-fu movies are just as ingrained in the public consciousness as gi's, senseis and dojos.

But it doesn't matter. When Fraction is done, I probably will be too. When I saw the next issue's artwork and half the page was Misty's breasts I saw the writing on the wall.

[mdg1]

Given that the classic Fist costume is basically a green gi with a yellow collar & belt, I see no conflict here.

[WorstThingUS]

Given that the classic Fist costume is basically a green gi with a yellow collar & belt, I see no conflict here.

First of all, that's not a gi. What Danny and the kids are wearing in the preview pages are gi's and there's simply no comparison. And the way the belt is worn tied on the side is indicative of Chinese martial arts. Then there are the names, "Yu Ti" "Lei Kung" "Shou Lao" and even under Brubaker and Fraction, almost all the previous Iron Fists have been Chinese. None of this goes with "dojo" and "sensei."

[Jimmy Holograph]

First of all, that's not a gi. What Danny and the kids are wearing in the preview pages are gi's and there's simply no comparison. And the way the belt is worn tied on the side is indicative of Chinese martial arts. Then there are the names, "Yu Ti" "Lei Kung" "Shou Lao" and even under Brubaker and Fraction, almost all the previous Iron Fists have been Chinese. None of this goes with "dojo" and "sensei."

Yes thats true, but if you'd remember, Danny is trained extensively in almost every form of Earth's martial arts as instructed by The Thunderer. Many of those are Japanese styles such as Ninjutsu (which explains his acrobatic/rooftop abilities) in the past he has used Jiujitsu/Judo throws, and through Colleen Wing has been exposed to a lot of Japanese culture. However in the current series these things have been overlooked (but not in New Avengers).

I also recognize that the majority of Eastern culture that Western audiences are synonymous with, especially in comics, are elements of Japanese culture. This was even evident in the original Premiere and first ongoing issues, as opposed to the more Chinese themes and settings in Shang-Chi comics. So while some would call it lazy research and writing, others may see it simply as a reflection of (albeit wrong) Western perceptions. (Much like the how-Clint-Barton-is-a-ninja argument.)

Fraction really can't be called on this one either. The entire run he and Ed have actually used Chinese culture extensively (one of the best parts about the run, I might add) without using Ninjas (*ahem* Bendis) or other more stereotypical elements.

So while it would seem more appropriate for Danny to use more Chinese methods, it isn't inappropriate or wrong for him to be teaching using Japanese methods, seeing as he knows both.

[WorstThingUS]

Yes thats true, but if you'd remember, Danny is trained extensively in almost every form of Earth's martial arts as instructed by The Thunderer. Many of those are Japanese styles such as Ninjutsu (which explains his acrobatic/rooftop abilities) in the past he has used Jiujitsu/Judo throws, and through Colleen Wing has been exposed to a lot of Japanese culture. However in the current series these things have been overlooked (but not in New Avengers).

I also recognize that the majority of Eastern culture that Western audiences are synonymous with, especially in comics, are elements of Japanese culture. This was even evident in the original Premiere and first ongoing issues, as opposed to the more Chinese themes and settings in Shang-Chi comics. So while some would call it lazy research and writing, others may see it simply as a reflection of (albeit wrong) Western perceptions. (Much like the how-Clint-Barton-is-a-ninja argument.)

Fraction really can't be called on this one either. The entire run he and Ed have actually used Chinese culture extensively (one of the best parts about the run, I might add) without using Ninjas (*ahem* Bendis) or other more stereotypical elements.

So while it would seem more appropriate for Danny to use more Chinese methods, it isn't inappropriate or wrong for him to be teaching using Japanese methods, seeing as he knows both.

Inconsistent, not inapproriate was the term I used. It's inconsistent. And a couple of years with Colleen isn't going to change a lifetime in K'un-Lun.

God save us all from writers who know jack about ninjas or ninjitsu. What's sad and odd about all this is that there is no one more famous than Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan in martial arts and they're Chinese and have never worn gi's. Hell, Bruce Lee made movies mocking and beating up people in them.

And out of nowhere...we need a trade of the original runs of Iron Fist. My original copies are old and I can't keep re-reading them.

[claimtosubclaim]

Inconsistent, not inapproriate was the term I used. It's inconsistent. And a couple of years with Colleen isn't going to change a lifetime in K'un-Lun.

God save us all from writers who know jack about ninjas or ninjitsu. What's sad and odd about all this is that there is no one more famous than Bruce Lee or Jackie Chan in martial arts and they're Chinese and have never worn gi's. Hell, Bruce Lee made movies mocking and beating up people in them.

But we've never seen Danny teaching a kids' fighting class. If he used to teach kids Chinese martial arts and this was a consistent practice established in his old comics, then it would be inconsistent with continuity. But who are you to say that he can't teach Japanese martial arts? He certainly knows it well. Do you have some exclusive insight into his decisions of what to teach? Because he's certainly not limited to Chinese.

[claimtosubclaim]

double post

[Jimmy Holograph]

But we've never seen Danny teaching a kids' fighting class. If he used to teach kids Chinese martial arts and this was a consistent practice established in his old comics, then it would be inconsistent with continuity. But who are you to say that he can't teach Japanese martial arts? He certainly knows it well. Do you have some exclusive insight into his decisions of what to teach? Because he's certainly not limited to Chinese.

Its alright, he wants to complain about things not fitting in with continuity, but then complains about having to dig up old issues.:rolleyes:

[Jimmy Holograph]

Besides, Danny may have a real reason to teach Jujutsu or karate as opposed to wushu. Bear in mind his hybrid style of fighting would be WAY too difficult for a child to learn, so just as Danny learned gradually, so would his students.

In fact it isn't a completely isolated occurrence either. My local Martial Arts school, which strictly teaches Taekwondo, calls its junior classes "Little Ninjas." Taekwondo is considered the most popular martial art in the world in terms of practitioners, but a kid wouldn't know what it was, just like they probably wouldn't know kung fu (a certain panda may change that though) Bruce Lee and maybe Jackie Chan. But I bet they would know what a ninja is or recognize karate in some form.

[mdg1]

God save us all from writers who know jack about ninjas or ninjitsu.

Considering that the ninjitsu elements were introduced back in 1974, it's hardly fair to complain. Hell it was probably one of the first usages of ninja IN comics (the other candidates being the Goodwin/Simonson Manhunter and an old Captain Fear story)

And out of nowhere...we need a trade of the original runs of Iron Fist. My original copies are old and I can't keep re-reading them.

That would be "Essential Iron Fist" :)

[WorstThingUS]

But we've never seen Danny teaching a kids' fighting class. If he used to teach kids Chinese martial arts and this was a consistent practice established in his old comics, then it would be inconsistent with continuity. But who are you to say that he can't teach Japanese martial arts? He certainly knows it well. Do you have some exclusive insight into his decisions of what to teach? Because he's certainly not limited to Chinese.

Well, that makes sense. "We've never seen him not do it." I've never seen him kick puppies either, but if he started doing it I could argue, "We'll we've never seen him not kick puppies."

Every single aspect of Iron Fist has been Chinese from the beginning. All the previous Iron Fists but for Orson have been Chinese. Now suddenly we see him teaching with a Japanese approach? One more time: inconsistent was the word I used.

Besides, Danny may have a real reason to teach Jujutsu or karate as opposed to wushu. Bear in mind his hybrid style of fighting would be WAY too difficult for a child to learn, so just as Danny learned gradually, so would his students.

It wasn't too difficult for him to learn as a child. Children don't know limitations until you tell them. He might have to spoon feed adults whose minds are resistant, but not to kids. Do you really see Damny "dumbing down" his art or making it more palatable for the masses? "Sifu and mo gwoon aren't popular enough with the kids so I'll use sensei and dojo instead."

In fact it isn't a completely isolated occurrence either. My local Martial Arts school, which strictly teaches Taekwondo, calls its junior classes "Little Ninjas." Taekwondo is considered the most popular martial art in the world in terms of practitioners, but a kid wouldn't know what it was, just like they probably wouldn't know kung fu (a certain panda may change that though) Bruce Lee and maybe Jackie Chan. But I bet they would know what a ninja is or recognize karate in some form.

Kids know Jackie Chan and Jet Li. Bruce Lee may be going too far back, but not the others. And again, your point is Danny would dumb his art down for people whose minds are the most receptive to new things.

Considering that the ninjitsu elements were introduced back in 1974, it's hardly fair to complain. Hell it was probably one of the first usages of ninja IN comics (the other candidates being the Goodwin/Simonson Manhunter and an old Captain Fear story)

Oh, it's fair if you look remember the great ninja explosion of the 80's after Frank Miller made them popular in his Daredevil run.

That would be "Essential Iron Fist" :)

(whining) But that's not in colorrrrrrrr! (stomps feet and pouts)

[SupermanL]

Holy, double fisted. Look's good, a regular on my pull list before the different writer. Why oh why must you leave Matt Fraction. You could have just dropped that Frank Castle rag.

[SupermanL]

I am gonna miss this book...:frown:

Absolutely, been one of the better run books since it's re-emergence into the light from the back shelf. I love Daniel Rands character and subset more than most of the current written heroes.

[B. Kuwanger]

I was studying martial arts years before I got into American comics and hey, if you let these inconsistencies get to you, you'll wind up crazy. Pretty much every single thing is an inconsistency.

And Bruce Lee did study Judo, so yeah, he wore a gi. :smile:

[claimtosubclaim]

Well, that makes sense. "We've never seen him not do it." I've never seen him kick puppies either, but if he started doing it I could argue, "We'll we've never seen him not kick puppies."

Every single aspect of Iron Fist has been Chinese from the beginning. All the previous Iron Fists but for Orson have been Chinese. Now suddenly we see him teaching with a Japanese approach? One more time: inconsistent was the word I used.

Using the generic "kicking puppies as synonymous with anything I want it to be" argument? Now you're just grasping at straws.

Danny has a vast knowledge of various fighting styles and there's no reason why he shouldn't teach with a Japanese approach other than you saying that it's inconsistent with a character who uses a wide variety of fighting styles. Why can he only use Chinese ones again? A person can be a master of many disciplines (Japanese, Chinese, American, etc.), use one of those way more than the others (Chinese), and also be a teacher of one of his lesser used disciplines (Japanese). There's nothing inconsistent about this. Also, have you ever heard of building continuity? You could argue that *any* new element in a book or involving a character is inconsistent with what we've seen before (like Danny teaching the kids in a dojo), but you're just stretching the definition of the word at that point unless you can explain why the development is unnatural. And there's nothing unnatural about this specific one.

[mikekerr3]

Using the generic "kicking puppies as synonymous with anything I want it to be" argument? Now you're just grasping at straws.

Danny has a vast knowledge of various fighting styles and there's no reason why he shouldn't teach with a Japanese approach other than you saying that it's inconsistent with a character who uses a wide variety of fighting styles. Why can he only use Chinese ones again? A person can be a master of many disciplines (Japanese, Chinese, American, etc.), use one of those way more than the others (Chinese), and also be a teacher of one of his lesser used disciplines (Japanese). There's nothing inconsistent about this. Also, have you ever heard of building continuity? You could argue that *any* new element in a book or involving a character is inconsistent with what we've seen before (like Danny teaching the kids in a dojo), but you're just stretching the definition of the word at that point unless you can explain why the development is unnatural. And there's nothing unnatural about this specific one.


The Japanese approach is also the generic American approach people have seen it on TV and wrongful assume that that is the proper way.

Going with the percieved norm would make it more accessible to the students and less intimidating at no loss to anyone except for a traditionalist. Student sho proper respect learn what they need to learn and everyone is happy, the language is trivialities, Some Schools in Tae Kwann Do use English for everything other as much Hangul (Korean) as possible, you can't tell the difference in tournaments though, its just a triviality.

[WorstThingUS]

I was studying martial arts years before I got into American comics and hey, if you let these inconsistencies get to you, you'll wind up crazy. Pretty much every single thing is an inconsistency.

And Bruce Lee did study Judo, so yeah, he wore a gi. :smile:

Bruce Lee studied everything and actually preached against the point I'm making that you should never be trapped in something. However, we've never seen Iron Fist affecting a Bruce Lee type of view towards martial arts (in which case he'd never be in any type of traditional garb). And while he may have worn one, onscreen which is what people would have actually seen, he did not and made it a point of beating up and/or embarassing people who did. China vs. Japan. It's a long story...

Using the generic "kicking puppies as synonymous with anything I want it to be" argument? Now you're just grasping at straws.

I was using hyperbole to make a point. "We've never seen him not do it" is very poor logic.

Danny has a vast knowledge of various fighting styles and there's no reason why he shouldn't teach with a Japanese approach other than you saying that it's inconsistent with a character who uses a wide variety of fighting styles. Why can he only use Chinese ones again? A person can be a master of many disciplines (Japanese, Chinese, American, etc.), use one of those way more than the others (Chinese), and also be a teacher of one of his lesser used disciplines (Japanese). There's nothing inconsistent about this. Also, have you ever heard of building continuity? You could argue that *any* new element in a book or involving a character is inconsistent with what we've seen before (like Danny teaching the kids in a dojo), but you're just stretching the definition of the word at that point unless you can explain why the development is unnatural. And there's nothing unnatural about this specific one.

Boxing is a martial art too, but if we opened up with Danny in a boxing ring in trunks teaching kids and telling them to call him coach would that also be covered under "Well, we've never seen him not do it" and "Oh, the totally new situation of teaching allows for it."?

99% of all the aspects of Iron Fist are Chinese. This is the first time a Japanese aspect has stepped up in 30 years and without reason, so yes, it's inconsistent. Feel free to show me the "consistency" of this type of arbitrary change, because I've got 30 years that says it's not.

The Japanese approach is also the generic American approach people have seen it on TV and wrongful assume that that is the proper way.

Going with the percieved norm would make it more accessible to the students and less intimidating at no loss to anyone except for a traditionalist. Student sho proper respect learn what they need to learn and everyone is happy, the language is trivialities, Some Schools in Tae Kwann Do use English for everything other as much Hangul (Korean) as possible, you can't tell the difference in tournaments though, its just a triviality.

That's only if you perceive the norm to be karate, when the popularity of Bruce Lee, Jackie Chan and Jet Li suggest that it's not. There's a better argument for Danny being in a pair of sweats teaching Mixed Martial Arts given its current popularity. There were two movies alone this year about wushu. All the martial arts in the Matrix films were wushu. "Perception" does not say "gi." And these "trivialities" matter to people who are teaching thousands of years of culture and heritage. It may not matter at a strip mall taekwondo dojang, but it does in other places and I don't see Danny Rand not respecting what Lei Kung has taught him not to try and keep the training of his students in line with his own.

[RedRonin]

It's refreshing to see Aja pages. It appears there won't be a fill-in either. That is all that I need.

[claimtosubclaim]

Boxing is a martial art too, but if we opened up with Danny in a boxing ring in trunks teaching kids and telling them to call him coach would that also be covered under "Well, we've never seen him not do it" and "Oh, the totally new situation of teaching allows for it."?

Yes, IMO it would be covered under the latter quote. I don't see any problem with it. And for all you know, maybe there was a demand for inner-city kids wanting to learn Japanese martial arts and not Chinese martial arts. This would make sense, especially since the youth of North America have more recollection of what they see (the visuals they get from film/tv like characters wearing gi and training in dojos) than what fighting style is actually being used by famous martial artists like Bruce Li and co. Danny could simply be supplying a demand by opening up a dojo. He's keeping kids off the street who want to learn this particular fighting style.

[WorstThingUS]

Yes, IMO it would be covered under the latter quote. I don't see any problem with it. And for all you know, maybe there was a demand for inner-city kids wanting to learn Japanese martial arts and not Chinese martial arts. This would make sense, especially since the youth of North America have more recollection of what they see (the visuals they get from film/tv like characters wearing gi and training in dojos) than what fighting style is actually being used by famous martial artists like Bruce Li and co. Danny could simply be supplying a demand by opening up a dojo. He's keeping kids off the street who want to learn this particular fighting style.

I think it conflicts with all we've seen so far and it's either a) a mistake by the writer who doesn't understand how cultures and styles coincide or b) a failure of the writer to make it clear why this is suddenly so different. It's as simple as "I let the kids vote on what style they'd like to study. They picked karate because they liked the uniforms. I let them all wear black belts to show that rank actually means nothing...."

[claimtosubclaim]

I think it conflicts with all we've seen so far and it's either a) a mistake by the writer who doesn't understand how cultures and styles coincide or b) a failure of the writer to make it clear why this is suddenly so different. It's as simple as "I let the kids vote on what style they'd like to study. They picked karate because they liked the uniforms. I let them all wear black belts to show that rank actually means nothing...."

First of all, the black belts may very well be an art mistake. You assume that Fraction wrote "kids wearing black belts" into his script when you don't know if that's even true. Secondly, it's not about letting kids have a vote on what they'd like to study. It's about meeting a specific demand that *already* exists in inner-city kids who have no outlet to keep them off the street. For example, in the show 'The Wire', Cutty started a boxing gym because the corner kids had a desire to box but no place to do it. If he had opened up a dojo instead, none of these kids would have been interested.

[WorstThingUS]

First of all, the black belts may very well be an art mistake. You assume that Fraction wrote "kids wearing black belts" into his script when you don't know if that's even true. Secondly, it's not about letting kids have a vote on what they'd like to study. It's about meeting a specific demand that *already* exists in inner-city kids who have no outlet to keep them off the street. For example, in the show 'The Wire', Cutty started a boxing gym because the corner kids had a desire to box but no place to do it. If he had opened up a dojo instead, none of these kids would have been interested.

One of many mistakes...

And you utterly miss the point. The point is to explain why this visually contradicts everything we've seen for 30 years. And I've yet to see anyone defending this provide an earlier instance where he goes outside the Chinese influence this character has always had.

[claimtosubclaim]

I think it's safe to say that we're never gonna reach any common ground with each other, so I'm just gonna let this thread die.