batman THOROUGHLY beaten by zealot. is she the new 'standard now?

[weapon-smith]

dreamwar issue 3. ( jla/wildcats/authority crossover) man, bats got his ass handed to him. nose broken, stabbed, knee busted, finger cut off and finally head cut off in a brutal fight. wtf? is she the standard that fighters will be judged by in comics now??

what do you batfans make of this?

man dc heroes are coming off the lightweights in this crossover...fisrt green arrow has his neck broken by midnighter, then doc fate gets gunned down by grifter in one panel. finally to top it off, superman just stands there CRYING at what happens to bruce.

???

[Radical]

It's called "jobbing", if you ask me.

[Jmacq1]

Batman's never been the "standard that fighters will be judged by in comics now."

Zealot is thousands upon thousands of years old, and has been a stone-cold warrior for...yeah, all that time. In the Wildstorm Universe she probably helped invent most of the martial arts Bruce knows. She's also (to my knowledge) superhumanly strong and agile. If Zealot hadn't pasted Batman, it'd be a massive piece of ignorance where Zealot's combat ability is concerned. All they did was portray the fight realistically in regards to the two characters respective abilities and histories.

Green Arrow getting his butt handed to him by Midnighter follows this line of reasoning well. Midnighter is 100,000 times the badass Ollie Queen dreams of being.

The Grifter/Doc Fate things seems awfully sketchy/ridiculous, though.

Though I'd wager the whole "head cut off" and "broken neck" parts should be a good indicator that this isn't exactly a "real" fight anyway. I'd also expect the situation to be reversed in later issues. Incidentally, have any DC characters won their fights against Wildstorm characters, or are you just selectively pointing out the ones DC lost to try to rile people for no good reason?

It's called "jobbing," if you ask me.

Really? Jobbing, huh? Please, explain to me exactly why a multi-millenia old elite superhuman warrior who's made a point of continually training, fighting, and "staying sharp" in any way needs to "job" to the very mortal Bruce Wayne? Batman gets beaten in combat by people within the DC Universe on a fairly regular basis. He's not the apex of combat ability and never really has been. Zealot, on the other hand, is generally considered to be the most skilled close combatant in the Wildstorm Universe (and there's a lot of very skilled close combatants in the Wildstorm Universe, to boot).

Wonder Woman would have been a more fair battle for Zealot than Batman, though I think Diana has massive strength and speed advantages against her.

[weapon-smith]

puh-leese, zealot has had her ass handed to her by backlash, thousands of years of experience and all. is she any better than say deathstroke? batman has respectively hung ( albeit briefly) with a much stronger powered wonder woman. by your reasoning, thor, hercules, ares, wonder woman etc should all be winning their fights all the time.

sure bats was OUTMATCHED but in saying that if batman always lost to people he is physically INFERIOR to , he would lose 90 per cent of his battles. he would be a low level hero like moon knight or something. the fact he is one of the most respected and feared heroes is because he manages to overcome superior opponents.

[Jmacq1]

puh-leese, zealot has had her ass handed to her by backlash, thousands of years of experience and all. is she any better than say deathstroke? batman has respectively hung ( albeit briefly) with a much stronger powered wonder woman. by your reasoning, thor, hercules, ares, wonder woman etc should all be winning their fights all the time.

sure bats was OUTMATCHED but in saying that if batman always lost to people he is physically INFERIOR to , he would lose 90 per cent of his battles. he would be a low level hero like moon knight or something. the fact he is one of the most respected and feared heroes is because he manages to overcome superior opponents.

No, he manages to have a massive jobber aura and fight opponents crippled by near-terminal plot-induced-stupidity. Much like any "human" character that fights against characters with massive strength, durability, and speed advantages on any sort of even level/without significant plot-device planning and countermeasures in place. Clearly in this crossover, he's being written by someone that realizes Batman is still human. Zealot...is not. She's like Lady Shiva on crack with superpowers. How many times has Batman defeated Lady Shiva in a straight-up fight when both of them were at the top of their game? That would be never.

Oh, and Backlash himself is 3000 years old and has other superhuman abilities besides. He should probably kick Batman's butt, too. Of course, if you're going to use that logic, then Batman's far from the best fighter in the DCU, since y'know, he's been beaten by plenty of people, too. Even the "best" lose occasionally. If your criteria for "being the best" is "never been beaten" than the only character that's the "best" is the one that's never been in a fight.

And once again, you really might want to wait for the crossover to be finished before you rush to judgement. It's called "Dreamwar" and has people apparently being killed and crippled left and right. Doesn't that give you the slightest hint that it might not be what it seems?

You also ignored the other question: Have any DC characters defeated a Wildstorm opponent?

[DaveEB]

puh-leese, zealot has had her ass handed to her by backlash, thousands of years of experience and all. is she any better than say deathstroke?

Okay, I see this brandied about at other places as well...What's wrong with being beaten by Backlash? Backlash is younger than Zealot, but he's ALSO Kherubim and has been around for ages(he was a ninja at one point in his life). I just don't see how that's an argument. In my opinion Backlash could kill Batman just as easily as Zealot did...not even taking into account Backlash's powers...

[weapon-smith]

batman is MORE than just physicality. the guy analyses people and their skillls straight away ala captain america. if he judges they are physically much more powerful or just as fighting savvy, then why try to PHYSICALLY win the fight? so if batman goes up against ww, you think he would try to beat her physically? try to batter someone into submission much stronger? does that sound like batman to you? then he falls for the zealot stabbing him through herself ploy .

and also so what if its a DREAM. thats not the point. point is that we get to see in print batman taken apart by a cheap ass hero. so what if she is more powerful...so is wolverine...but how would people take to batman getting ass raped by wolvie in some crossover then dc turning round saying 'it was only a dream' or something so it dont count......

[DaveEB]

batman is MORE than just physicality. the guy analyses people and their skillls straight away ala captain america. if he judges they are physically much more powerful or just as fighting savvy, then why try to PHYSICALLY win the fight? so if batman goes up against ww, you think he would try to beat her physically? try to batter someone into submission much stronger? does that sound like batman to you? then he falls for the zealot stabbing him through herself ploy .


Yeah...and you argue against yourself...

This Batman is not acting like the regular Batman. ALL of the DC characters within this comic are not acting like themselves...the point of this issue some might argue. So if this isn't the real Batman or Batman's being controlled or altered in some way then the battle is only a superficial fight between Batman and Zealot.

The REAL Batman(one acting like Batman would normally act) could possibly find a way to best Zealot(and even then, why would they be fighting in the first place?), BUT if Batman and Zealot were fighting to kill each other(as is the case here) I go for Zealot winning every time.

[Jmacq1]

They'd probably take it for what it is. A not-real story that's not going to have any bearing on the character's "standing" in the comic-world in any way, shape or form. Particularly if it's revealed that the fight wasn't real/both characters weren't operating at their best. It's called "mitigating circumstances."

Rest easy, WS, I can assure you that after this crossover is over, Batman will still be one of the most popular, recognized, and successful superheroes in the world, and most of the people in the world will still have no clue who Zealot is if they don't read Wildstorm comics.

As for the fight in question, you offer no context. Does Batman have -time- to analyze Zealot? Or is he tossed into the fight mostly "cold?" Batman's not some instantaneous mind/body-reading super combat machine. That'd be Cassandra Cain Batgirl's thing.

I'm also now firmly convinced you're just trolling anyway, since your entire argument continues to be self-defeating (if Batman were written as "awesome" as you describe him, he'd never lose, either. Why is that logic OK for Batman but not his opponents?). And you also fail to answer one simple question:

HAVE ANY DC CHARACTERS WON?

[weapon-smith]

"This Batman is not acting like the regular Batman. ALL of the DC characters within this comic are not acting like themselves...the point of this issue some might argue. So if this isn't the real Batman or Batman's being controlled or altered in some way then the battle is only a superficial fight between Batman and Zealot."

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not the point. as far as we saw, batman foght with the skill of regular batman, even at one point appearing to WIN the fight when he stabbed zealot throught the body. his abilities couldnt have been THAT impaired by any stretch of the imagination, could it? only thing that seemed strange to superman is that they didnt care when any of their mates died, not their fighting skills.

[weapon-smith]

As for the fight in question, you offer no context. Does Batman have -time- to analyze Zealot? Or is he tossed into the fight mostly "cold?" Batman's not some instantaneous mind/body-reading super combat machine. That'd be Cassandra Cain Batgirl's thing





^^

when you get bitch slapped by someon much stronger than you you do not have to be batman to realise they out class you physically...or was the guy saying to himself " okay...i felt that one..lets take another to really find out if she's strong and fast...okay just one more..."

[WorstThingUS]

dreamwar issue 3. ( jla/wildcats/authority crossover) man, bats got his ass handed to him. nose broken, stabbed, knee busted, finger cut off and finally head cut off in a brutal fight. wtf? is she the standard that fighters will be judged by in comics now??

what do you batfans make of this?

man dc heroes are coming off the lightweights in this crossover...fisrt green arrow has his neck broken by midnighter, then doc fate gets gunned down by grifter in one panel. finally to top it off, superman just stands there CRYING at what happens to bruce.

???

Um, doesn't he almost win though unarmed? Not quite the impressive victory you make it out to be.

[Jmacq1]

Yeah, this is pointless. It's either fanboying or trolling and in either case you can't argue with that.

His abilities can be every bit as impaired as the writers want him to be. If you don't understand that very simple fact, you must not have been reading comics for very long.

If you're really worried about whether or not Batman can beat Zealot, start a Rumbles thread. I reckon you'll end up with much the same result.

[DaveEB]

and also so what if its a DREAM. thats not the point. point is that we get to see in print batman taken apart by a cheap ass hero. so what if she is more powerful...so is wolverine...but how would people take to batman getting ass raped by wolvie in some crossover then dc turning round saying 'it was only a dream' or something so it dont count......

Isn't that the point of a lot of "elseworld" stories?

Anyway, I think this comic is showing what a real crossover between the DCU and the WSU would be like without it being a real one. Point is the WSU characters are willing and very able to kill and the DCU heroes are not.

Midnighter almost kicking Green Arrows head off, Grifter shooting Doctor Fate from behind, Zealot butchering Batman...it shows that the two universes don't mix. They are two different worlds with different laws.

[Jmacq1]

Here's a question regarding the crossover: Have Majestic and Superman crossed paths? If they did and showed no signs of knowing each other...yeah, there's a whole lot of "not-realness" going on. They're on pretty good terms with each other within their "real" continuities.

[weapon-smith]

yeah its pointless arguing with the likes of you, cos you do not appear to grasp what i am saying. of course batman was outclassed. probably massively.

he nearly always is. this is one thing. by your reckoning lets just have bats lose 90 per cent of his fights then. lets just leave him out of the jla...he is always outclassed on every mission.

having a major hero gutted and beheaded by an inferior character in a crossover.it seems so "throwaway".

example. read what i am saying again...wolverine is much more powerful, savage and battle experienced than batman...but do you think you will EVER see in print him GUTTING batman in some crossover ..dream or not?

why do you think?

[Froggy]

dreamwar issue 3. ( jla/wildcats/authority crossover) man, bats got his ass handed to him. nose broken, stabbed, knee busted, finger cut off and finally head cut off in a brutal fight. wtf? is she the standard that fighters will be judged by in comics now??

what do you batfans make of this?

man dc heroes are coming off the lightweights in this crossover...fisrt green arrow has his neck broken by midnighter, then doc fate gets gunned down by grifter in one panel. finally to top it off, superman just stands there CRYING at what happens to bruce.

??? i'm prety sure this isn't the real deals of the JLA

and didn't the TEEN TITANS friggin bumrush MAJESTIC? who's suppose to be SUPERMAN class?


i eman, the KID flash in the Teen titans is wally west, that hsoudl tell you soemthing is up

and with the way green arrow isdressed....that's definitely not a current JLA look. Also didn't the JLA stomp the authority for the most part IIRC?

They'd probably take it for what it is. A not-real story that's not going to have any bearing on the character's "standing" in the comic-world in any way, shape or form. Particularly if it's revealed that the fight wasn't real/both characters weren't operating at their best. It's called "mitigating circumstances."

Rest easy, WS, I can assure you that after this crossover is over, Batman will still be one of the most popular, recognized, and successful superheroes in the world, and most of the people in the world will still have no clue who Zealot is if they don't read Wildstorm comics.

As for the fight in question, you offer no context. Does Batman have -time- to analyze Zealot? Or is he tossed into the fight mostly "cold?" Batman's not some instantaneous mind/body-reading super combat machine. That'd be Cassandra Cain Batgirl's thing.

I'm also now firmly convinced you're just trolling anyway, since your entire argument continues to be self-defeating (if Batman were written as "awesome" as you describe him, he'd never lose, either. Why is that logic OK for Batman but not his opponents?). And you also fail to answer one simple question:

HAVE ANY DC CHARACTERS WON?

yes, superman whooped ass

as did the teen titans

they beat MR MAJESTIC

[Jmacq1]

yeah its pointless arguing with the likes of you, cos you do not appear to grasp what i am saying. of course batman was outclassed. probably massively.

he nearly always is. this is one thing. by your reckoning lets just have bats lose 90 per cent of his fights then.

having a major hero gutted and beheaded by an inferior character in a crossover.it seems so "throwaway".

example. read what i am saying again...wolverine is much more powerful, savage and battle experienced than batman...but do you think you will EVER see in print him GUTTING batman...dream or not?

why do you think?


You don't get it. Crossovers don't follow the same "rules" especially when they're not going to affect either continuity once they're done. Do you post a thread like this every time Batman loses a fight in actual continuity? Why not? After all, it should be an even greater affront to your sensibilities for Batman to lose "for real."

I would not be surprised AT ALL by Wolverine gutting Batman in a crossover with no permanent repercussions. But you're also failing to take into account that the Wildstorm Universe is vastly more violent and "ruthless" than the DCU. As one of the above posters pointed out, part of this whole crossover is making a point that these two settings don't play well together.

"Inferior" character has multiple meanings. "Inferior" in terms of overall popularity? "Inferior" just because you don't like her? What difference does it make? If it's only out to be a popularity contest, you'll just end up with the horrific Marvel vs. DC crossover. You know, where Wolverine (without adamantium bones or claws, to boot) "beat" LOBO?!?

Seriously, what are you so upset about? Nothing in this crossover is going to end up diminishing Batman in any way. Much less so than getting beat up by say, Prometheus or Bane or whoever in his own universe's titles.

EDIT: The Titans bumrushed Majestic? That's so ludicrous it's hilarious. Who did Superman battle?

[DaveEB]

why do you think?

The point for Batman being gutted within this comic, I think, is to show the DC fans that they don't want a real crossover between DC and WS, because alot of beloved DC characters would get diced. It's simple. WS characters are deadly(the good ones anyway) and DC characters mostly don't do killing...not in the same way at least.

There WOULD be casualties in a fight between DC and WS, dream or not.

[weapon-smith]

i know these are not 616 dc characters um not only due to the fact gl and bats are dead:smile: )...but looking at the way batman fought you cannot say in any way shape or form this batman was physically INFERIOR to the one in 616 continuity . he had the moves and the weaponry. if this was regular batman comic, people would accept the way this batman fought ( except the outcome).

like i said the only thing bugging supes was the way they reacted to death...not their fighting abilities. also none of the wildcats or authority look like they powers are any way different to 616 continuity so why say this is the jla's case?

[weapon-smith]

The point for Batman being gutted within this comic, I think, is to show the DC fans that they don't want a real crossover between DC and WS, because alot of beloved DC characters would get diced. It's simple. WS characters are deadly(the good ones anyway) and DC characters mostly don't do killing...not in the same way at least.

There WOULD be casualties in a fight between DC and WS, dream or not.


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you say that....but aren't the batman/ww/supes etc regular villains of the dc heroes trying to slice and dice them in the way the authority/wildcats are but on a regular basis? why are the authority/wildcats any different to the villains batman and all face? the jla always face deadly villains without killing them ...and manage to save the day.

you say dc fans wouldnt want such a crossover, yet they already have one...

[Froggy]

You don't get it. Crossovers don't follow the same "rules" especially when they're not going to affect either continuity once they're done. Do you post a thread like this every time Batman loses a fight in actual continuity? Why not? After all, it should be an even greater affront to your sensibilities for Batman to lose "for real."

I would not be surprised AT ALL by Wolverine gutting Batman in a crossover with no permanent repercussions. But you're also failing to take into account that the Wildstorm Universe is vastly more violent and "ruthless" than the DCU. As one of the above posters pointed out, part of this whole crossover is making a point that these two settings don't play well together.

"Inferior" character has multiple meanings. "Inferior" in terms of overall popularity? "Inferior" just because you don't like her? What difference does it make? If it's only out to be a popularity contest, you'll just end up with the horrific Marvel vs. DC crossover. You know, where Wolverine (without adamantium bones or claws, to boot) "beat" LOBO?!?

Seriously, what are you so upset about? Nothing in this crossover is going to end up diminishing Batman in any way. Much less so than getting beat up by say, Prometheus or Bane or whoever in his own universe's titles.

EDIT: The Titans bumrushed Majestic? That's so ludicrous it's hilarious. Who did Superman battle? I forgot but I remember him punking Apollo. Flash and MM got in on the action too, along with GL

they seem a bit more ruthless then regular JLA people

[Jmacq1]

616 is Marvel.

As for whether the characters up to their "full levels" or not. Why does it matter? Seriously? As far as I can tell, your basic argument is "Batman is more popular/well-known, so he should win, regardless of the established abilities of his opponent."

Or probably more accurately, "I like Batman better, so he should win."

[weapon-smith]

You don't get it. Crossovers don't follow the same "rules" especially when they're not going to affect either continuity once they're done. Do you post a thread like this every time Batman loses a fight in actual continuity? Why not? After all, it should be an even greater affront to your sensibilities for Batman to lose "for real."

I would not be surprised AT ALL by Wolverine gutting Batman in a crossover with no permanent repercussions. But you're also failing to take into account that the Wildstorm Universe is vastly more violent and "ruthless" than the DCU. As one of the above posters pointed out, part of this whole crossover is making a point that these two settings don't play well together.

"Inferior" character has multiple meanings. "Inferior" in terms of overall popularity? "Inferior" just because you don't like her? What difference does it make? If it's only out to be a popularity contest, you'll just end up with the horrific Marvel vs. DC crossover. You know, where Wolverine (without adamantium bones or claws, to boot) "beat" LOBO?!?

Seriously, what are you so upset about? Nothing in this crossover is going to end up diminishing Batman in any way. Much less so than getting beat up by say, Prometheus or Bane or whoever in his own universe's titles.

EDIT: The Titans bumrushed Majestic? That's so ludicrous it's hilarious. Who did Superman battle?



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:smile: first of all i amm a marvelite. my hero is the mighty thor. not batman sorry. i was just shocked dc allowed a major character to be shown in this light. thats what i am saying.

also i am not stupid. of course crossovers do not follow the rules...thats why is suppose everyone accepted storm beat wonder woman or wolverine beat lobo.

yeah right.

and you show some naivety. comics. some heroes will not be shown to beat others. simple. you may not like it but its stone cold fact. you could see wolverine gutting batman in a crossover? ha ha ha dc didnt even allow captain america to bitch slap batman for fear of whipping up a crapstorm. see what i mean? a hero as prestigious as cap cant punch batmans lights out, but this character can?

who says i am upset? you are posting almost as much as me...are you upset? are you a wildcat/authority fan?

and as i said above how are violent superheroes any more deadly than violent villains? why would grifter be any more deadly that a deathstroke? why should they hand the league their ass just cos they are more violent?

[Jmacq1]

:smile: first of all i amm a marvelite. my hero is the mighty thor. not batman sorry. i was just shocked dc allowed a major character to be shown in this light. thats what i am saying.

also i am not stupid. of course crossovers do not follow the rules...thats why is suppose everyone accepted storm beat wonder woman or wolverine beat lobo.

yeah right.

and you show some naivety. comics. some heroes will not be shown to beat others. simple. you may not like it but its stone cold fact. you could see wolverine gutting batman in a crossover? ha ha ha dc didnt even allow captain america to bitch slap batman for fear of whipping up a crapstorm. see what i mean? a hero as prestigious as cap cant punch batmans lights out, but this character can?

who says i am upset? you are posting almost as much as me...are you upset? are you a wildcat/authority fan?

and as i said above how are violent superheroes any more deadly than violent villains? why would grifter be any more deadly that a deathstroke? why should they hand the league their ass just cos they are more violent?

I'm not upset, and only a casual fan of Wildstorm. I'm just trying to figure out what the point of all this is.

Here's another key item you seem to be missing out on: DC owns both Batman and Zealot. They don't mind if one of their own characters beats one of their own characters.

You're quite mistaken on "some heroes never lose." First off: Captain America/Batman was the same popularity contest that the Wolverine/Lobo and Storm/Wonder Woman fights fall into the first time. The second time, they -did- let Captain America "beat" Batman after a fashion, in a manner that respected both characters (in the JLA/Avengers crossover). Batman acknowledged that Cap was superior, not by much, but superior, then both characters did the sensible thing and teamed up well before any of their buddies stopped fighting. Arguably Cap/Bats were the two best-written characters of that whole crossover.

And yes, the heroes of the WSU are even more deadly than the villains of the DCU, at least the way they're usually portrayed. Even most villains don't play for keeps in the DCU, and even when they supposedly do, they do it in a PIS-laden fashion that insures the heroes will live to fight another day (or conversely are so inferior to the hero in skill that their threat is negated). All this crossover does is let the killers be killers, as appropriate to the characters.

So I get back to my basic, fundamental question: What's the point/what difference does it make? Batman's "standing" is in no way going to be affected by any of this, regardless of how badly he gets beaten (though as folks have pointed out, the fight is far less one-sided than you make it out to be).

So why were you so incensed that you felt the need to make this post, other than perhaps trying to rile some people up? If it really doesn't matter to you, then why weren't you posting when the Teen Titans took down Majestic, who's supposedly the most powerful hero in Wildstorm?

[DaveEB]

you say that....but aren't the batman/ww/supes etc regular villains of the dc heroes trying to slice and dice them in the way the authority/wildcats are but on a regular basis? why are the authority/wildcats any different to the villains batman and all face? the jla always face deadly villains without killing them ...and manage to save the day.

you say dc fans wouldnt want such a crossover, yet they already have one...
Be careful what you wish for I guess. I know a lot of people didn't want to see this comic at all. There were some that did apparently though...

And I guess the WS heroes are more organized than DC villians...not to mention they're the ones being attacked. I'm sure if Wildstorm characters were attacking the DCU, the DC characters might be able to beat them off. It's war tactics basically. Home turf, location(Jack Hawksmoor being in a city makes him more powerful for instance), various circumstances can be attributed to the JLA and others not being able to stop the WS guys and gals.

The Teen Titans, for instance, got the drop on Majestic. They had surprise on their side. There were several instances in the first 2 issues where DC heroes surprised the WSU heroes and won. They took out half of the Authority this way....and NOTE, they didn't kill.

[weapon-smith]

jmaq, second batman/cap fight was a product of comics politics. do you onw how i know this? prior to jla/avengers, kurt busiek said in interview that " get ready. the batman/cap fight will rock and be a blast" . what we got was a few slaps. they 'bottled' out of it. try to google any intervies by busiek prior to the jla/avengers and see how he is talking up the cap/bats fight.

caps and bats written 'well' in that crossover? wasnt cap supposed to be 'out of character' and mentally unstable? and did you get the bit where batman tells captain america to 'stop sightseeing and get to work' like some lackey? same guy who called ben grimm 'rough' but has hung around with types like metamorpho?

in the 'ask busiek' coloumn on the dcboards i pulled up busiek on this very matter and he got all 'huffy' saying something like ' he thought it was true to both characters" i said ' that does not soundlike what he said in priorinterviews.

and dont try to cover any anger on your part...you are going on about 'what difference does it make' then go "on and on" trying to convince me of something. what are YOU incensed about? this is my thread...i am allowed to be on here.

dont worry i suppose in your next posts you will try to put me straight...:rolleyes:

[Jmacq1]

I take perverse pleasure in pointing out trolling and hypocrisy. Hence the reason I'm still posting.

But your refusal to actually answer the telling questions paints you as the first, and your self-defeating arguments paint you as the second.

I rest my case.

[weapon-smith]

what question? put them in 1.2.3 fashion like a regular person would and i will gladly adress them. maybe if you didnt surround your questions with tons of waffle i may actually be able to spot them...:rolleyes:

[weapon-smith]

I take perverse pleasure in pointing out trolling and hypocrisy. Hence the reason I'm still posting




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ha ha ha ...SURRREE you are..:biggrin:

[Jmacq1]

Why did you feel the need to post this when Batman loses a fight to Zealot, but not when Majestic loses a fight to the Teen Titans if you "don't care?" You should be equally mystified by either result if you're as impartial as you claim to be.

What's the purpose of this post beyond "I like Batman better so I can't believe he lost!" or "I'm gonna get some bat-fans riled up by posting a completely one-sided and biased interpretation of the events?"

Why does it matter so much that Batman lost this one out-of-continuity fight that you felt the need to post about it?

Why are you so eager to somehow defend Batman's reputation when nothing about this crossover is going to affect his reputation in the slightest?

[Bat-Reader]

Can someone put scans of the pages of this fight ?

[weapon-smith]

1) read what i said about comics 'politics'. this is where a more popular character overcomes a less popular by more powerful opponent. like say the way sentry ( who is supposed be more powerful than hulk) cant beat him...or green arrow can beat deathstroke.

if popular characters got beat on a regular basis by lesser ones...well they wouldnt be popular for much longer would they? batman is dc's cash cow. he wont be allowed to lose to anybody, wether you like it or not.

2) i said i was shocked batman was beaten hand to hand . this is not something you see often. batman is always put up as the 'standard' for hand to hand ( even if the opponent is more powerful) so this is a big thing.

3)quote"Why does it matter so much that Batman lost this one out-of-continuity fight that you felt the need to post about it?" end quote

same way you go on a thread you disagree with and spend ages trying to convince me of your point of view. i made a thread and i am repsonding to peoples input.

quite different to going on a persons thread ( like you) and going on and on about what YOu think. why not make your own thread then? you know what I think. why are you suprised at what i am saying?

4) quote"Why are you so eager to somehow defend Batman's reputation when nothing about this crossover is going to affect his reputation in the slightest?@ end quote


how do YOu know? have you a crystal ball?

[weapon-smith]

Can someone put scans of the pages of this fight ?

batreader...the scans can be found halfway down THIS thread:

http://herochat.com/forum/index.php?topic=175814.msg2818344

[Jmacq1]

1) read what i said about comics 'politics'. this is where a more popular character overcomes a less popular by more powerful opponent. like say the way sentry ( who is supposed be more powerful than hulk) cant beat him...or green arrow can beat deathstroke.

if popular characters got beat on a regular basis by lesser ones...well they wouldnt be popular for much longer would they? batman is dc's cash cow. he wont be allowed to lose to anybody, wether you like it or not.

And yet here lies Batman. RIP. The fight you posted about is in and of itself proof that this argument is lacking.

Secondly, a character's popularity has very little to do with how many fights they win. You're apparently basing "popularity" solely on the most superficial aspects. Batman gets at least temporarily beaten on a fairly regular basis, but his popularity doesn't diminish in the least because of it. Of course he turns around and wins in the end, because then otherwise, there's not much more story to tell, is there?

2) i said i was shocked batman was beaten hand to hand . this is not something you see often. batman is always put up as the 'standard' for hand to hand ( even if the opponent is more powerful) so this is a big thing.

Put up as "the standard" for hand-to-hand by who? I certainly don't view him as "the standard" for that and never particularly have. Furthermore, the very meaning of "the standard" is misleading..."the standard" is by nature a minimum, not a maximum. Batman's a great combatant, certainly, but he's not so great as others who have dedicated their entire life to the arts of combat. Batman is diversified (ludicrously diversified at that), as opposed to solely combat-focused.


same way you go on a thread you disagree with and spend ages trying to convince me of your point of view. i made a thread and i am repsonding to peoples input.

quite different to going on a persons thread ( like you) and going on and on about what YOu think. why not make your own thread then? you know what I think. why are you suprised at what i am saying?

If you weren't prepared to hear differing opinions, perhaps you shouldn't have posted a thread in the first place, hmmm? Or are you new to this whole "internet" phenomenon?

how do YOu know? have you a crystal ball?

No, just a modicum of common sense and nearly 80 years of continuing popularity and recognition on the part of the Batman character and franchise, despite the many, many times he's lost fights over that time. Yes, sometimes even to opponents that are technically inferior to him in virtually every way. I know, shocking isn't it?

In fact, I'll use my amazing precognitive powers to come up with another one: Come July 18th, Batman will probably be more popular than he is right now, despite the fact that he got his head cut off by a relatively obscure character in a comic book just a month or two previous.

But wait, there's more! I also predict that DC/Warner Brothers will not lose a single red-cent of their overall Batman-centric profits because Batman lost this fight to Zealot. Even "cash cows" aren't invincible if the writers don't want them to be, and surprise surprise they're not any less profitable even when they occasionally lose....

[Bat-Reader]

batreader...the scans can be found halfway down THIS thread:

http://herochat.com/forum/index.php?topic=175814.msg2818344


Thanks Weapon Smith. :)

It was like tastament to how idiot DC is. She killed Batman.....

[Kurt Busiek]

jmaq, second batman/cap fight was a product of comics politics. do you onw how i know this? prior to jla/avengers, kurt busiek said in interview that " get ready. the batman/cap fight will rock and be a blast" . what we got was a few slaps. they 'bottled' out of it. try to google any intervies by busiek prior to the jla/avengers and see how he is talking up the cap/bats fight.

Feel free to quote anything I said -- my original plan for the fight was that it would be even shorter, but George added panels to it.

Nowhere did I ever say it would be long and drawn out, just that I thought it would be really cool. I think it was.

But it was not the product of company politics, at all.

kdb

[Jmacq1]

In a freaking non-continuity crossover, and she lost an eye and got smacked around a good bit for her trouble. She was also deeply impressed by his abilities, because if you know jack-all about Zealot's character, she doesn't compliment people lightly. Usually more like ridiculing them for their lousy technique as she stomps them into the ground.

Yeah, this fight wasn't nearly the curbstomp the OP made it out to be. Yeah, Batman ended up "dead", but god forbid a comic writer remember that swords are killing weapons.

[carabas]

jmaq, second batman/cap fight was a product of comics politics. do you onw how i know this? prior to jla/avengers, kurt busiek said in interview that " get ready. the batman/cap fight will rock and be a blast" . what we got was a few slaps. they 'bottled' out of it. try to google any intervies by busiek prior to the jla/avengers and see how he is talking up the cap/bats fight.
There were no slaps. Not a single punch was thrown in the Bats/Cap face-off. And I thought it was the best 'fight' in the entire book. Not to say the other battles were bad, but the two best fighters just gauging each other for a page or two and then deciding to do something more constructive with their time was awasome.

i said i was shocked batman was beaten hand to hand . this is not something you see often. batman is always put up as the 'standard' for hand to hand ( even if the opponent is more powerful) so this is a big thing. Like you said, you are a Marvelite. Batman is not th best hand-to-hand fighter in the DCU. In fact, he barely makes the top five, and he has never bested Lady Shiva, Bronze Tiger, Cassandra Cain, or Richard Dragon in a fair fight.

[weapon-smith]

1) first of all, i never said a persons popularity depends on how many fights they win. its the quality and status of the opponent . of course they may lose the odd battle maybe even embarrasingly, but they always win the war. the big battles. like i said in major crossovers with other companies i.e marvel batman WONT lose. how do i know this? cos he never has. he was even allowed to beat hulk.

why do you suppose these guys like him are popular and stay popular in the first place?

2) batman is not rip. if you havent noticed, he is still running around catching villains in like about 100 comics. what ya never heared?:rolleyes: :biggrin:

of course this will not hurt bats popularity...he has like 100 comics around a month to DILUTE what has happened. hey do most bat fans even KNOW about this series? ya got a poster named 'batreader' who didnt even know about this:biggrin:

3) ha ha you may not view batman as the 'standard' for hand to hand but i would suggest you read more comics. you are in the tiny minority...probably about 1. if you dont know that in ANY hand to hand threads on most messageboards that cap and batman are put up as the 'standards' then you shouldnt be on here.:rolleyes: for marvel its cap for dc its batman and that is set in stone. just like hulk/superman in strength terms for their respective universes, flash/quicksilver for speed etc. read some more comics.


there are many people stronger than supes or hulk are they not? there are people better than batman and cap are there not? there are even people faster than flash are there not? they are not the 'benchmarks' though, cos at some stage these more formidable guys have lost to these benchmarks.man, do you even read comics?

there are many people stronger than superman but please...please do not tell me he is not used as the benchmark for comicbook strength. i will be forced to cry...

4)sure i like to hear 'differing opinions'...but um thats different from the 'same' opinions from the 'same' guy..isnt it?

[Jmacq1]

I don't think I'm the one that needs to read more comics here....if you don't know Batman isn't the best hand-to-hand fighter in DC (he's even flat-out admitted it himself more than once), you're the one that's skipped a few issues.

I'm done here. Have fun with the rest of your trolling.

[weapon-smith]

see. didnt even read what i said. i SAID batman wasnt the best...but he is the benchmark. i agreed with you and you didnt even see it. when it comes to who is the best hand to hand fighter, cap and batman dominate threads for their respective universes. why do you think supes/hulk and batman/cap were the biggest most anticipated most talked about battles of marvel vs dc? why do you think these heroes ( hulk/cap not even being the most popular) dominated precedings? cos it was the two considered strongest and the two most considered best hand to hand combatants.sorry...no richard dragon or shiva in there for some reason.

i dont make the rules:smile: like i said why is superman considered strongest superhero when there are a few in dc stronger? for some reason you didnt answer.

anyway...sorry you couldnt even read what i wrote for some reason, but have a nice life, as you argument appears to have run out of steam. bye.

[moonknight11]

I gotta start buying dreamwar. LOL at Supes Batman getting beheaded. It wasn't that much of a stomp that it is made to be. It was a brutal fight and Zealot got heavily injured too.

[WorstThingUS]

I'm still trying to figure how her killing him right before she dies herself is some sort of redefining victory. You don't "THOROUGHLY" beat anyone if they inflict fatal injuries on you.

You're just a troll.

[TROUBLEZ]

I just got issue #3, didn't know about the series till now. Anyway, I thought it was a pretty good comic.

The fight scenes were nice, the art was good, a large variety of the DCU, like the Legion AND the JLA/JSA.

I didn't think the Batman getting killed by Zealot was bad writing or anything. Although it was a little confusing. In one panel it looks like he brings her own sword through her chest.

And after seeing Frank Miller, then Rob Liefeld due the same sword-through-two people thing, it's a little played out now.

Anyway, I don't mind if Batman gets whuped by Zealot or anyone else in Wildstorm. As long as he atleast is portrayed putting up a helluva fight.

[weapon-smith]

I'm still trying to figure how her killing him right before she dies herself is some sort of redefining victory. You don't "THOROUGHLY" beat anyone if they inflict fatal injuries on you.

You're just a troll.


batman has various parts of body limbs broken or hacked off...zealot you claim is 'dead' was out and about in supermans face daring him to finish her straight afterwards. did you read the issue to the end? nah, you probably just looked at the scans. tsk tsk.:rolleyes: at least read the comic all the way through to the end before you start insulting people.

wheres these 'fatal' injuries on zealot you on about? if someone is walking , talking and speaking after a fight, then they are not dead, son.:rolleyes:

dont know what passes for 'thoroughly' in your house ....

[carabas]

Zealot was impaled through her abdomen on her own sword. If she were human she'd be dead. And anybody not familiar with Zealot can be forgiven for thinking those were mortal wounds for her.

[weapon-smith]

Feel free to quote anything I said -- my original plan for the fight was that it would be even shorter, but George added panels to it.

Nowhere did I ever say it would be long and drawn out, just that I thought it would be really cool. I think it was.

But it was not the product of company politics, at all.

kdb

do me a favour.

no where did i say you said the fight would be long and drawn out...but mate, people were at least expecting a fight...not a 'non fight' with 2 grown superheroes 'slapping' each other for about 3 panels . all you needed was for batman to say 'ooh you bitch! i'll scratch your eyes out' .

and you say scenes were ADDED? dont insult my intelligence.

man, there was more 'action' between these two on the COVER of jla/avengers 2, what a swizz.

[WorstThingUS]

batman has various parts of body limbs broken or hacked off...zealot you claim is 'dead' was out and about in supermans face daring him to finish her straight afterwards. did you read the issue to the end? nah, you probably just looked at the scans. tsk tsk.:rolleyes: at least read the comic all the way through to the end before you start insulting people.

wheres these 'fatal' injuries on zealot you on about? if someone is walking , talking and speaking after a fight, then they are not dead, son.:rolleyes:

dont know what passes for 'thoroughly' in your house ....

It doesn't mean if you were human (which she obviously is not), you'd be dead, which she would have been. "Thoroughly" beating someone does mean incurring mortal wounds even though you've got two freaking swords. It means you're relatively untouched while there's a body at your feet, but she's minus one eye with hole in her chest. If she were human, the fight's over when he stabs her with her own sword. How is getting stabbed with your own weapon "thorough"?

But then again, I've studied martial arts for twenty-five years so I know how to give an ass-kicking to an inferior opponent and I know what it's like to get one from a superior opponent. I'm not some trolling fanboy whose only combat experience comes from reading Iron Fist comics.

And while I've disagreed with Mr. Busiek online myself, I was nowhere near the douche you are, so yeah, my troll judgment stands.

[weapon-smith]

It doesn't mean if you were human (which she obviously is not), you'd be dead, which she would have been. "Thoroughly" beating someone does mean incurring mortal wounds even though you've got two freaking swords. It means you're relatively untouched while there's a body at your feet, but she's minus one eye with hole in her chest. If she were human, the fight's over when he stabs her with her own sword. How is getting stabbed with your own weapon "thorough"?

But then again, I've studied martial arts for twenty-five years so I know how to give an ass-kicking to an inferior opponent and I know what it's like to get one from a superior opponent. I'm not some trolling fanboy whose only combat experience comes from reading Iron Fist comics.

And while I've disagreed with Mr. Busiek online myself, I was nowhere near the douche you are, so yeah, my troll judgment stands.

mate...ya cant get more thoroughly beaten than DEAD.

oh wait...yes ya can. someone beaten, chopped up then killed. geez, is that THOROUGH enough for ya?

zealot? an eyepatch some time to heal she's good. might even make her look sexier. she can also still plan her christmas list. she'll even be hearty enough to probably slay the entire bat family as well if she feels like it.

now THATS thorough!

you say you study martial arts. whoop de doo. that surely makes you an authority on immortal alien comicbook characters which you clearly are not ...but a good attempt at a backtrack on YOUR weird definition of 'thoroughly'. next time read up on a character, saves you looking foolish and backpeddling with lame excuses.

[OverMaster]

The point for Batman being gutted within this comic, I think, is to show the DC fans that they don't want a real crossover between DC and WS, because alot of beloved DC characters would get diced. It's simple. WS characters are deadly(the good ones anyway) and DC characters mostly don't do killing...not in the same way at least.

There WOULD be casualties in a fight between DC and WS, dream or not.

So, this comic is all about Killing=Good and Cool, Not Killing= Bad and Lame?

Glad as hell I'm not buying it, then.

[DaveEB]

So, this comic is all about Killing=Good and Cool, Not Killing= Bad and Lame?

Glad as hell I'm not buying it, then.

No it's about the two comic universes not mixing. The Wildstorm U and it's characters have certain ways that just don't mix with the DCU...one of those ways is WS kills it's villains. Not saying it's good or bad, just the way it is. The WSU "heroes" aren't "heroes," they're people. People do bad things as often as they do good things. That's the way people are. The DCU is full of heroes that don't normally kill.

[WorstThingUS]

mate...ya cant get more thoroughly beaten than DEAD.

By that idiot rationale everyone who's every been killed was "thoroughly beaten" even if they were shot from a thousand miles away by a sniper. Your post is about hand-to-hand combat, which you obviously know jack shit about, because thoroughly beating someone does not mean you're standing there with one eye and stabbed with your own weapon, complimenting your opponent on how much damage they've done to you.

you say you study martial arts. whoop de doo. that surely makes you an authority on immortal alien comicbook characters which you clearly are not ...but a good attempt at a backtrack on YOUR weird definition of 'thoroughly'. next time read up on a character, saves you looking foolish and backpeddling with lame excuses.

No, it just makes me more of an authority on hand-to-hand combat than you'll ever be. Not to mention more accustomed to the English language, as you obviously have no concept of "thorough" to use it the way you have...troll. My feeding of you ends here.

[OverMaster]

The WSU "heroes" aren't "heroes," they're people. People do bad things as often as they do good things. That's the way people are. The DCU is full of heroes that don't normally kill.

Sorry, I get what you are trying to say, but I'm afraid I don't share some of your views.

You seem to imply *people* lets themselves to slip down to murderer level while *heroes* don't... but heroes *are supposed* to be people too! Just people who *chooses* to do the right thing, to have morals!

Why can't you be *people* if you don't choose the easy dark path and just strive to be better than the villains you face?

[weapon-smith]

By that idiot rationale everyone who's every been killed was "thoroughly beaten" even if they were shot from a thousand miles away by a sniper. Your post is about hand-to-hand combat, which you obviously know jack shit about, because thoroughly beating someone does not mean you're standing there with one eye and stabbed with your own weapon, complimenting your opponent on how much damage they've done to you.



No, it just makes me more of an authority on hand-to-hand combat than you'll ever be. Not to mention more accustomed to the English language, as you obviously have no concept of "thorough" to use it the way you have...troll. My feeding of you ends here.

ha .gotta love how some people (i.e the ones losing an argument) have to make a grand statement about how they are 'leaving' and not 'answering anymore'. why not just stop posting mate.simple.

calm down son. going on about how you are some 'combat expert' on the net smacks of desperation. me? i'm an astronaut with beyonce sitting on my lap right now. what me lie and embellish? ahem..anyway with that out the way....

if you dont understand that one opponent is still standing and will be functioning normally within time and on the other hand one opponent who is diced and sliced worm food isnt the one thoroughly beaten then i suggest you have taken too many 'licks' around your forehead and are therefore punchdrunk at the moment mr 'drunken master'.

how the heck you gonna equate facing someone hand to hand with being shot by sniper, mr 'hong kong phooey ( terrrrrrrrrrriffic!)*?at least hand to hand you know whats comin'..sheesh..


please calm down with that 'internet kung fu master' business, 'grasshopper'.....its only comicbooks. not that serious. no need to 'flex' up yourself and rip your shirt off in front of the monitor. nobody cares how many briese blocks you can mash up with your fists..







*copywrite hanna barbera studios

[DaveEB]

Sorry, I get what you are trying to say, but I'm afraid I don't share some of your views.

You seem to imply *people* lets themselves to slip down to murderer level while *heroes* don't... but heroes *are supposed* to be people too! Just people who *chooses* to do the right thing, to have morals!

Why can't you be *people* if you don't choose the easy dark path and just strive to be better than the villains you face?

I get what you're saying. I guess...realism is more an accurate description...WSU characters act more realistic than DC's...It's realistic that people with superpowers would mostly use them as weapons. It's human nature. It's not entirely realistic that a majority of people with superpowers would be entirely against killing and use their powers for "truth, justice, and the American way."

DC is a fantasy view of what superheroes should be. WS is a more realistic view of what superheroes would be.

[Kurt Busiek]

no where did i say you said the fight would be long and drawn out...but mate, people were at least expecting a fight...not a 'non fight' with 2 grown superheroes 'slapping' each other for about 3 panels . all you needed was for batman to say 'ooh you bitch! i'll scratch your eyes out' .

Your argument was that because it was so short, and I'd said it would be something else, that it was company politics that changed it. There were no editorial changes. It was always planned to be short, and in those interviews where you claim I said it would be something else, I said no such thing.

and you say scenes were ADDED

No, I said George made it longer. It was still one scene.

George often adds panels and incidents, making scenes longer.

man, there was more 'action' between these two on the COVER of jla/avengers 2, what a swizz.

The fact that you didn't like it doesn't mean there was company politics involved, of course.

kdb

[lade]

Batman was the better fighter, no doubt , but zealot's superhuman endurance got her the fight, if you saw the fight batman persistently outfought her , only at the end when she used a desperation maneuver to gut them both, trusting she would still be standing while he would be out for the count to win.Her endurance and the fact batman brought fists to a sword fight was the reason he lost.

At least that's how I saw it.Even she admitted the fact to superman.

[weapon-smith]

Your argument was that because it was so short, and I'd said it would be something else, that it was company politics that changed it. There were no editorial changes. It was always planned to be short, and in those interviews where you claim I said it would be something else, I said no such thing.



No, I said George made it longer. It was still one scene.

George often adds panels and incidents, making scenes longer.



The fact that you didn't like it doesn't mean there was company politics involved, of course.

kdb


kurt, when i referred to the comments you made about how the cap/batman fight was gonna go, i didnt refer to how LONG you said it would be. you said something like 'greatest' or was it 'best fight ever'. we didnt even get a fight. squirrel girl vs doom was more intense than what we got.

people know about the political problems which dogged the first aborted jla/avengers team up...this is why it took so long to happen again, so i find it hard to accept that you were just then suddenly given cate blanche to just do what you wanted with the characters.

lets face it, you wouldnt tell us if you had rigid 'rules' regarding how each character should come off anyway wouldja? it would make you look like some writer who was just told what to do.

dont get me wrong, i expected the outcomes of superman/thor and cap/bats, just didnt agree with the execution of any of the battles, so please dont give it the 'if you dont like it tough crap' routine. if you say 'best fight ever' and have cap and batman battling on the cover of issue 2, forgive me for actually expecting a freakin' fight.

[carabas]

a 'non fight' with 2 grown superheroes 'slapping' each other for about 3 panels . all you needed was for batman to say 'ooh you bitch! i'll scratch your eyes out' .What are you on about? Did you even read the scene in question? There was no slapping in that scene.

dont insult my intelligence.Too easy to make a funny here.

kurt, when i referred to the comments you made about how the cap/batman fight was gonna go, i didnt refer to how LONG you said it would be. you said something like 'greatest' or was it 'best fight ever'. we didnt even get a fight. squirrel girl vs doom was more intense than what we got.Please google up that interview and post an exact quote if you're so sure of this, and stop putting your half-remembered fever-dreams in mr. Busiek's mouth.

if you say 'best fight ever' and have cap and batman battling on the cover of issue 2, forgive me for actually expecting a freakin' fight.Obviously not the best fight, since there was no touching, but definitely one of the best confrontations in the book, narrowly edged out by the Batman/Punisher one.

[weapon-smith]

What are you on about? Did you even read the scene in question? There was no slapping in that scene.

Too easy to make a funny here.

Please google up that interview and post an exact quote if you're so sure of this, and stop putting your half-remembered fever-dreams in mr. Busiek's mouth.

Obviously not the best fight, since there was no touching, but definitely one of the best confrontations in the book, narrowly edged out by the Batman/Punisher one.

geez mate. whats your home address, so i can mail you my dictionary for you to look up 'sarcasm' regarding the batman/cap fight.


* Perez on the Captain America/Batman fight: "The Captain America versus Batman fight was one of the few fights that actually had some kind of resolution in the original JLA/Avengers, back in the eighties. But the challenge was, how do you draw a subtle feint? The script says, 'They barely move.' Oh, great! That's why I had Thor conjure up rain, so that I could show movement. I call it my Lethal Weapon sequence."

well this is what perez said. notice how he says 'fight' and no 'confrontation'? keep your loopsided observations to yourself. guy even says they 'hardly move'. now..hows that equate to what was on the cover or alluded to by busiek? mate, i will be back to post what busiek said, i am sorting that out right now. believe that. and why so 'het up'? is busiek related to you? are you busiek?:biggrin: why not just let this grown ass man answer for himself BEFORE you push up into this.

[Deason]

kurt, when i referred to the comments you made about how the cap/batman fight was gonna go, i didnt refer to how LONG you said it would be. you said something like 'greatest' or was it 'best fight ever'. we didnt even get a fight. squirrel girl vs doom was more intense than what we got.

Well, you said "second batman/cap fight was a product of comics politics. do you onw how i know this? prior to jla/avengers, kurt busiek said in interview that " get ready. the batman/cap fight will rock and be a blast" . what we got was a few slaps".

You say you "know" there was editorial interference, and when one of the creators takes the time to set the record straight, you say you won't believe them. I wonder whom would you believe? If the editors said "There was no interference" would you reply "Well, of course they're going to say that"?

I guess you have a very narrow and literal-minded idea of what a fight is.

Seems to me that what has obviously happened is this:

1) You read an interview where a writer said a particular fight would be great

2) On the strength of that, you imagined for yourself what a "great fight" between these characters would be like

3) When it turns out the writer hadn't written what you had imagined he would, you say this proves there was editorial interference.

Which of these 3 events have I got wrong?

[weapon-smith]

well, i will answer you this: it took 20 yeras for this crossover to happen and there hasnt been a dc/marvel crossover since. why do you think? read between the lines.

look, if there were politics involved, would you really expect busiek to say so? say he wrote within the confines they gave him? would that look good on him? do you believe everything you are told? we question politicians, excuse me if i dare to question a comicbook writer with my own theories.

"I'm writing the best Captain America, Batman fight ever," the writer says. "Count on that."

by busiek taken from this interview:

http://members.fortunecity.com/jlaavenger/home.htm

see, busiek and perez both use the term 'fight' and as i said before, they were shown fighting on the cover as well...so i actually expected one. sure the term 'fight' could be interpreted differently, but mate...if you have the two biggest hand to hand bad-asses in two comicbook universes in a huge intercompany crossover and the word 'fight' being used..um you would expect a bit of arse-kicking, not a husband and wife 'screaming at each other' type fight :rolleyes: this is um, usually what happens in comicbooks. what ya never knew?

hmm. maybe thats just me.

[Brian Cronin]

The concept of the series is that a kid is creating "dream" versions of the DC heroes in the DC Universe.

Zealot killed a "dream version" of Batman.

So it would be an extreme stretch (to the point of it not really even being worth arguing) to say that "Zealot beating a dream version of Batman" = "Zealot beating Batman."

-Brian

[carabas]

"I'm writing the best Captain America, Batman fight ever," the writer says. "Count on that."

by busiek taken from this interview:

http://members.fortunecity.com/jlaavenger/home.htmAnd he delivered. These things tend to be subjective, you do not have to agree.


well this is what perez said. notice how he says 'fight' and no 'confrontation'? keep your loopsided observations to yourself.
Going for sematics? That's weak .But since you're going that way, it's 'lopsided', and it dosn't mean what you think it does. And quit with the mating, it's creepy.

[lade]

People talk about zealot's victory as if it was spectacular, a curbstomp, it was more last man standing, with zealot's superhuman endurance ensuring she got the coup de grace on him , while he was mortally wounded.

She threw herself at him and ran both of them through , ( victory at any cost) if she was human , she should'nt have gotten up but she isn't and even in comparing extent of injuries, she took the more grievous injuries ( an eye for a broken nose, a perforated shoulder for a broken knee and ran through with her own sword for a smallest finger, and having to resort to throwing herself at him and using a suicide stab ( only other time I have seen this used was in code geass R2 as a sacrificial move to get an opponent, it's basically implies i willing to die to take you with me).

She wins because of superhuman staying power that prevents a mortal blow or 2 from incapacitating her , while batman is too stunned and injured to defend himself properly). Had zealot being human she should have died when batman ran her through but she's kherubim, and let's not forget batman is unarmed while zealot has two monoblades, the odds were stacked in her favor.

Taking all this into account batman put up the more impressive fight, but zealot won because of superior weaponry, superhuman endurance and a complete disregard for wellbeing in orderto ensure victory.

[weapon-smith]

And he delivered. These things tend to be subjective, you do not have to agree.

Going for sematics? That's weak .But since you're going that way, it's 'lopsided', and it dosn't mean what you think it does. And quit with the mating, it's creepy.

so busiek delivered the 'best captainamerica /batman fight ever' in your opinion? ha ha ha . now why couldnt thor/superman be that explosive. stand there moodily eyeing each other out. sure coulda saved thor a few lumps. 'subjective'? the word 'fight' in a *comicbook* literally means that.

sheesh good job you are not a comicbook writer, especially if you think that was 'best fight ever':biggrin:

and i'm 'matey cos' i am british , black and beautiful mate.

[weapon-smith]

People talk about zealot's victory as if it was spectacular, a curbstomp, it was more last man standing, with zealot's superhuman endurance ensuring she got the coup de grace on him , while he was mortally wounded.

She threw herself at him and ran both of them through , ( victory at any cost) if she was human , she should'nt have gotten up but she isn't and even in comparing extent of injuries, she took the more grievous injuries ( an eye for a broken nose, a perforated shoulder for a broken knee and ran through with her own sword for a smallest finger, and having to resort to throwing herself at him and using a suicide stab ( only other time I have seen this used was in code geass R2 as a sacrificial move to get an opponent, it's basically implies i willing to die to take you with me).

She wins because of superhuman staying power that prevents a mortal blow or 2 from incapacitating her , while batman is too stunned and injured to defend himself properly). Had zealot being human she should have died when batman ran her through but she's kherubim, and let's not forget batman is unarmed while zealot has two monoblades, the odds were stacked in her favor.

Taking all this into account batman put up the more impressive fight, but zealot won because of superior weaponry, superhuman endurance and a complete disregard for wellbeing in orderto ensure victory.

i get what you are saying and it makes sense. its just that you do not normally see batman 'manhandled' and 'mash-up' in this way.

has he ever been this battle wounded in his regular comic? does anyone know?

[Brian Cronin]

No, Batman has never been wounded before in battle.

Yeah, that one guy crippled him, but that wasn't significant or anything.

And again, this is not Batman - this is a fabricated version of Batman created by the kid in the comic. It is why the Teen Titans were able to beat up Majestic - they are not the actual Teen Titans - they are dream fabrications of the kid dreaming in the comic.

-Brian

[weapon-smith]

The concept of the series is that a kid is creating "dream" versions of the DC heroes in the DC Universe.

Zealot killed a "dream version" of Batman.

So it would be an extreme stretch (to the point of it not really even being worth arguing) to say that "Zealot beating a dream version of Batman" = "Zealot beating Batman."

-Brian

dont agree. batman fought just like regular batman may have. also all the jla characters are being humiliated by the wildcats/authority. green arrows neck broken by midnighter, dr fate shot up by grifter, superman being manhandled by hawksmoor...these wildstorm guys do not seem to be 'playing below par' powers-wise' so i dont buy that. remember as people have pointed out, if real batman was to meet real zealot considering her powers, the outcome shouldnt even be any different.

you could use that reasoning for thor vs superman, which was not in continuity also. while it may not have been the 'real' characters we know, superman still beat thor. no-one is saying it does not count cos it isnt the real deals.

[Brian Cronin]

The Wildstorm guys are the real deal.

The DC heroes are not.

-Brian

[weapon-smith]

ooooh.:evilsmile:

is this sarcasm or what is actually happening?

[Brian Cronin]

That's the whole concept of the mini-series. It's a way to have the heroes fight each other without actually having them fight each other.

So if Batman beat up Zealot, it would equally have no real meaning, as she would not have been beaten by the actual Batman, but a dream fabrication of Batman.

-Brian

[Deason]

well, i will answer you this: it took 20 yeras for this crossover to happen and there hasnt been a dc/marvel crossover since. why do you think? read between the lines.

look, if there were politics involved, would you really expect busiek to say so? say he wrote within the confines they gave him? would that look good on him? do you believe everything you are told? we question politicians, excuse me if i dare to question a comicbook writer with my own theories.

Question away, but I'm not sure why, if you are going to dismiss the answers out of hand. "Theories" are usually falsifiable. So, if you don't believe the writer involved, who would you believe? Stan Lee? Or would he have a reason to hide the truth too?

I might say that I "know" you are posting what you are because you are secretly a mind-controlled sleeper Soviet agent, recently activated from beyond the grave by Leonid Brezhnev. What's that? You deny that? Well, OF COURSE you're going to deny that if it's true!

Point is, you're also going to deny it if it's false. Pointing out a possible motive for denial doesn't mean it's the only possible motive for denial, and does not constitute compelling evidence one way or the other.

"Though all things foul would wear the brows of grace,
Yet grace must still look so."

What could convince you that there was no interference? If NOTHING would convince you, well... I won't try :) (But such a statement makes your implied position (of having arrived at your conclusion logically via consideration of evidence) a little shaky: open-minded persons can countenance revising their conclusions if new evidence compels them.)

"It could have happened this way" is not by itself proof for "It did happen this way". (It needs to be combined with "It could not have happened any other way", a much more difficult proposition in general, and pretty obviously false here)


"I'm writing the best Captain America, Batman fight ever," the writer says. "Count on that."

by busiek taken from this interview:

http://members.fortunecity.com/jlaavenger/home.htm

see, busiek and perez both use the term 'fight' and as i said before, they were shown fighting on the cover as well...so i actually expected one. sure the term 'fight' could be interpreted differently, but mate...if you have the two biggest hand to hand bad-asses in two comicbook universes in a huge intercompany crossover and the word 'fight' being used..um you would expect a bit of arse-kicking, not a husband and wife 'screaming at each other' type fight :rolleyes: this is um, usually what happens in comicbooks. what ya never knew?

hmm. maybe thats just me.

Well, I think we're back to YOUR expectations of the fight, based on the interview, differing from what the fight turned out to be. I'm not saying your expectations were necessarily unreasonable, but I do think there are other possible explanations for the divergence apart from politically inspired editorial interference.

On one hand we have:

Kurt Busiek and you have near-identical ideas of what the 'best fight' should be, but the editors neutered the scene before it was printed

And on the other:

Kurt Busiek and you have significantly different ideas of what the 'best fight' should be, and what was printed was what he had in mind at the time of the interview.

Neither is a priori flat out impossible, but Occam's razor strongly favours the second. (For instance, Kurt thinks the fight as printed is cool and you don't, so you two do indeed seem to have different ideas on what makes a fight interesting. Personally, I agree with those that like the fight - I find it a suspenseful scene that defies reader expectations in a surprising but retrospectively perfectly logical way, consistent with both characters)

Sorry for such a long post

[weapon-smith]

huh? what you just say?:biggrin:

fact of the matter is if the fight wa so 'great why did perez feel he had the need to 'intensify the look of said 'fight' as in his words there wasnt even a fight?

'best fight ever'? :rolleyes: the link also goes on to say that while he busiek couldnt confirm wether heroes would battle or just team up he will guarantee one thing that batman/cap fight would be best ever. this logically leads me to believe there would be a fist fight right? he said he wouldnt confirm heroes just 'teaming up' and not fighting , so pardon me for using my brain and cutting through some bullshit. you seem to be doing a job of saying what busiek may orcos he did confirm there would be a fight. may not have meant...why not just let the guy speak for himself? or are you him( being serious this time). lol

glad to see you found this 'fight' suspenseful...me? i just saw it as another dig at the marvel u running all through the series. batman came out of it great as first he deduced caps fighting style in seconds ( shame he couldnt do this to zealot) then he came up with the idea they were being 'played' which cap then agreed with. great for batman. cool and deductive. cap not so good. few people who liked this stand off at the time were suprise suprise dc fans spared the indignity of getting their fan favourite being busted up by someone from marvel.

couldnt be arsed to wade through all you wrote just to say this: there was 'politics' before jla/avengers ( well documented) and politics since ( why there hasnt been any subsequent crossovers...but we are all supposed to think that all this was just suspended for this crossover. okay. if you say so. none of the 'dc trinity' lost a fight in this crossover. funny that. oh where did busiek go immediately afterwards...oh yeah to write the jla. bet their readership welcomed him with open arms after that 4 issue dc advertisement he put out.

[Kurt Busiek]

i expected the outcomes of superman/thor and cap/bats, just didnt agree with the execution of any of the battles, so please dont give it the 'if you dont like it tough crap' routine.

I didn't say "if you don't like it, tough." I said that if you don't like it, that doesn't mean there were company politics involved.

That's the fight I wanted to tell. I think it is cool -- I think the idea that Batman and Captain America are so good that all it takes is a single feint-and-response (which is what I plotted; George added more) for them to tell who would win is great. Some readers agreed with me, some didn't, but that's just what we set out to do, and it's exactly what I was talking about in those interviews.

But as you note, you're not going to believe anything but your assumption, to the point that you think I'd come to this board and lie to you rather than just ignore it. That doesn't make much sense to me, but it does make it clear that there's no point in further discussion.

You're convinced that editors told us what to do in the Cap/Batman clash, I say they didn't. I was there, you weren't.

I'll let others decide who's more credible on the subject.

kdb

[weapon-smith]

yeah kurt , sure,mate. whatever.


ok. now from what i can see, the premise of dreamwar is rather a joke. remember that 'dallas' episode where bobby ewing appears out the shower. the whole entire series prior where he was died and subsequent events were all some 'dream'? that everything before ( a whole series) somehow didnt matterwhat a 'mauling' that show received. i havent seen such a bare faced, bend over 'cop-out' since..nah, better not start again , i've been there already.....

this is what this series is. dont worry that batman/gl , fate etc are get their arses handed to them in a rather humiliating fashion ...it was all a dream.

and people are buying ( literally) this?

[Froggy]

That's the whole concept of the mini-series. It's a way to have the heroes fight each other without actually having them fight each other.

So if Batman beat up Zealot, it would equally have no real meaning, as she would not have been beaten by the actual Batman, but a dream fabrication of Batman.

-Brian and anyone thinkt his Chimaera person is bheind it?

I mean the "JLA" are getting orders form a Chimaera

Legion has a "Chimaera lad" they trust to help them attack stormwatch

[Froggy]

yeah kurt , sure,mate. whatever.


ok. now from what i can see, the premise of dreamwar is rather a joke. remember that 'dallas' episode where bobby ewing appears out the shower. the whole entire series prior where he was died and subsequent events were all some 'dream'? that everything before ( a whole series) somehow didnt matterwhat a 'mauling' that show received. i havent seen such a bare faced, bend over 'cop-out' since..nah, better not start again , i've been there already.....

this is what this series is. dont worry that batman/gl , fate etc are get their arses handed to them in a rather humiliating fashion ...it was all a dream.

and people are buying ( literally) this? I'm buying it and enjoying it thoroughly to be honest with you. I like the art, adn the fights, i'm also interested in how it tturns out

i'f you want to be an obsessed fanboy man and not enjoy the overall story....gooooooooo aheaaaaaaaaaaaaaad

[weapon-smith]

i think i was more shocked at what i thought was just some throaway crossover, seeing batman sliced up and killed like that. i was just expecting the usual superhero punch up.

good idea for publicity though. slice up batman to get peole talking and buy the book..obviously the purpose going by the longish fight and the splash panel of batman being run through which was there to obviously make a statement.

[Captain Jim]

Let's cut the name calling, people.

[Froggy]

Let's cut the name calling, people.

sorry sir

but seriously, amI the only person taht read into the whole Chimaera lad thing?

or the fact supes answers tot his dude?

[bjtrdff]

So I just decided to get these after reading this thread...is there anything known other than what has been presented in the books (interviews or whatever).

I know it's ooc, but I'm assuming there is a reason why the entire league/dcu heroes are acting largely out of character, or are we just to assume it's Chimera...

[echopryme]

Guess Batman needed some of that Bat Female-Villain Repellant Spray that he used against Jakita Wagner in Planetary: Knight on Earth.


http://superdickery.com/index.php?view=article&catid=36%3Astupor-powers-index&id=746%3Abat-female-villain-repellent&option=com_content&Itemid=38



Jesus, Bat's get's OWNED by the girls of Wildstorm.

[Froggy]

So I just decided to get these after reading this thread...is there anything known other than what has been presented in the books (interviews or whatever).

I know it's ooc, but I'm assuming there is a reason why the entire league/dcu heroes are acting largely out of character, or are we just to assume it's Chimera... yougotta read the series to find out

sorry to osund liek that but that's all i can say

Guess Batman needed some of that Bat Female-Villain Repellant Spray that he used against Jakita Wagner in Planetary: Knight on Earth.


http://superdickery.com/index.php?view=article&catid=36%3Astupor-powers-index&id=746%3Abat-female-villain-repellent&option=com_content&Itemid=38



Jesus, Bat's get's OWNED by the girls of Wildstorm.
yeah :(

[brundlefly]

The concept of the series is that a kid is creating "dream" versions of the DC heroes in the DC Universe.

So that's the twist, then? I picked up on the "the DC heroes are either not real or are being mind-controlled" vibe and references to taking orders from someone called "Chimera" in the first two issues. Dropped it after #2, due to that and all the Legion-specific insider references that went over my head (e.g. "That was so Bouncing Boy" or something like that). Hmph, that reveal is something of a letdown; guess this is a "throwaway crossover," then, with the WS characters just fighting figments who look and act like the JLA, Titans, etc., before moving on to face "Chimera."