The whole "the Skrulls aren't evil" plot thread introduced in "Who Do You Trust"...

[Spiffy]

Do we believe it? And given that this was dropped into an "extra" book that doesn't seem to be part of the core SI, is it supposed to matter to the overall story?

[drwho]

I think the writer of the Atlas storyline did not get the right memo. I mean why would Venus claim they are not evil when the Gods themselves in Incredible Hercules are sending gods to kill the skrull gods.

[IronPalm]

I think the writer of the Atlas storyline did not get the right memo. I mean why would Venus claim they are not evil when the Gods themselves in Incredible Hercules are sending gods to kill the skrull gods.

The gods dont want to cease to exist

[drwho]

The gods dont want to cease to exist

Venus is a god so why would she want to spare the skrulls?

[Sijo]

All Skrulls are not evil, there have been numerous good Skrull characters over the years. (Cadre K from X-Men is but one example.) What they DO have is a genetic predisposition for war, a result of millenia of pointless war with the Kree. So you can accuse them of being prone to violence, but not necessarily for evil reasons (from their POV, they are ding the right thing to survive.) This is different from, say, Mephisto torturing someone for the thrill of it.

[IronPalm]

Venus is a god so why would she want to spare the skrulls?

she's a blonde

[agrich]

It's all about perspective, isn't it? Since I'm a human and the Skrulls want to conquer my planet, I'm probably going to view them as evil no matter what. Whereas if I were a Skrull and this were the planet that produced the people who 1)spared Galactus' life and 2)led him to my throneworld so he could destroy it, I'd probably feel my race's actions were entirely justified.

[CyberHubbs]

It does boil down to a matter of perspective, like Agrich said. How did Native American tribes view encroaching colonists? And so forth.

[HynerianChef]

Venus isn't a goddess, actually, but a siren. Still a mythological creature.

The one-shot wasn't my first encounter with the "Skrulls aren't evil" thing, I'm quite sure. It might have been interviews or so forth, but it has been established that the Skrulls aren't invading just for the heck of it, but because they truly believe it is their divine right and their mission. And they do assume Earth will be better off under their dominion.

This gives them more complex motivations than simply "let's invade and destroy", thus giving credence to their weird religious perspective on the words of some prophet. But it doesn't change the fact that, when it boils down to it, they're little green men trying to invade the earth.

DEATH RAY!

[Karthak]

All Skrulls are not evil, there have been numerous good Skrull characters over the years. (Cadre K from X-Men is but one example.) What they DO have is a genetic predisposition for war, a result of millenia of pointless war with the Kree. So you can accuse them of being prone to violence, but not necessarily for evil reasons (from their POV, they are ding the right thing to survive.) This is different from, say, Mephisto torturing someone for the thrill of it.

Genetic predisposition? Wasn't it the Kree who started that stupid war?

[Mark_S]

To a point it depends on your point of view. The collonist and the American's who pushed west didn't really do so with the intent of killing every native and taking their land, but they did it anyway. To the natives it must have been like watching a wave of fire engulf the country. Many felt the same way about the Romans. But that point ends when the other side starts shooting. So while some individual skrulls aren't evil, their basic goal of conquest is.

Mark_S

[JdRavnos]

It also probably depends on the individual Skrull. That squadron of Skrulls might honestly believe that this will benefit mankind. The ones attacking London or New York might not give a damn about humanity, desiring revenge against the humans who have ruined Skrull plans time and again, or wanting to claim a new home after Annihilation or just because they're psychos and want the action. Probably about as many different reasons as their are Skrulls, plus one.

[Tanjint]

I think the point it's making about war is that those in power (military and political leaders) are evil and manipulating innocent citizens into warring for them.

so while some of the skrull priests, or even the empress may be evil, the actual soldiers aren't.

except the new super-skrulls who volunteered to be engines of death out of their deep hatred for earth people.

-T

[mikekerr3]

If you confuse being you enemy with being evil you run into problems. America has fought may wars against people who were not particularly evil WWI, Spanish-American War, Mexican War. Honduras. 1812 and the Revolution. Fighting someone make neither side automatically evil that tactics used can though.

The real Civil War cold go in that pile even though one of their causes was an abomination. The soldiers there with the exception of nutcases like Jackson and Forrest were not evil men they just disagreed and fought for what they said was right.

So far the Skrull have been fighting pretty straight, don't see torture or genocide, and we don't know there whole motivation. They follow the normal rules of war better than Shield or ONE. They are clearly the enemy but it to early to say on the good and evil thing.

[CyberHubbs]

If you confuse being you enemy with being evil you run into problems. America has fought may wars against people who were not particularly evil WWI, Spanish-American War, Mexican War. Honduras. 1812 and the Revolution. Fighting someone make neither side automatically evil that tactics used can though.

The real Civil War cold go in that pile even though one of their causes was an abomination. The soldiers there with the exception of nutcases like Jackson and Forrest were not evil men they just disagreed and fought for what they said was right.

So far the Skrull have been fighting pretty straight, don't see torture or genocide, and we don't know there whole motivation. They follow the normal rules of war better than Shield or ONE. They are clearly the enemy but it to early to say on the good and evil thing.

Well, I wouldn't say the Skrulls have been fighting 'pretty straight'. They kidnapped people, spliced and diced captive metas to make new Super-Skrulls, and infiltrated various positions of power on Earth to sow dissent and chaos.

It was definitely SMART fighting, but not quite straight.

Conquest, of course, isn't necessarily evil either.

[mikekerr3]

Well, I wouldn't say the Skrulls have been fighting 'pretty straight'. They kidnapped people, spliced and diced captive metas to make new Super-Skrulls, and infiltrated various positions of power on Earth to sow dissent and chaos.

It was definitely SMART fighting, but not quite straight.

Conquest, of course, isn't necessarily evil either.

Taking prisoners is part of war and better than killing for moral and tactical reasons. I war killing is playing it strait even with a knife in the dark. and infiltration and fifth collumns are part of war. Sowing dissent in chaos are just good military tactics Army's have people who specialize in that.

Armies try to ensure that the fights they get into won't be fair and never give the enemies a break if they can help it, but as the Skrull seem to be doing they hav limits on what they will do to win.

Most of the Chaos and hatred is self-inflicted the Skrulls just appeared to push the stupidity and hatred along bit. If the bigotry and irrational fear was not there to start with it would have done them no good/

They haven't tortured their prisoners that we have seen, and infiltration and spies are part of War. Sowing dissent in chaos are just good military tactics not particularly evil. Most of the Chaos and hatred is self inflicted the Skrull just appeared to push the stupidity and hatred along, they are just taking the opportunity offered,


They are the enemy and they should be fought but they so far are less evil than ONE or Shields worst.

[CyberHubbs]

Taking prisoners is part of war and better than killing for moral and tactical reasons. I war killing is playing it strait even with a knife in the dark. and infiltration and fifth collumns are part of war. Sowing dissent in chaos are just good military tactics Army's have people who specialize in that.

Armies try to ensure that the fights they get into won't be fair and never give the enemies a break if they can help it, but as the Skrull seem to be doing they hav limits on what they will do to win.

Most of the Chaos and hatred is self-inflicted the Skrulls just appeared to push the stupidity and hatred along bit. If the bigotry and irrational fear was not there to start with it would have done them no good/

They haven't tortured their prisoners that we have seen, and infiltration and spies are part of War. Sowing dissent in chaos are just good military tactics not particularly evil. Most of the Chaos and hatred is self inflicted the Skrull just appeared to push the stupidity and hatred along, they are just taking the opportunity offered,


They are the enemy and they should be fought but they so far are less evil than ONE or Shields worst.

Considering a sect of the Skrulls enslaved people in the Savage Land, and were even killing them, I wouldn't put them below SHIELD's own actions -- which, of course, were perhaps being led along by Skrulls in positions of power to begin with. Now, I'm not arguing that there's anything wrong with the Skrull's tactics, and even said they were smart considering the firepower Earth would have had at their disposal. But it still doesn't make the tactics straight. Whether it be our own military tactics, or that of an alien race, it's still not "straight", but it is necessary during a war.

[Hypestyle]

...so will the human resistance be labeled terrorists by the Skrull government?

never mind..

[CyberHubbs]

Taking prisoners is part of war and better than killing for moral and tactical reasons. I war killing is playing it strait even with a knife in the dark. and infiltration and fifth collumns are part of war. Sowing dissent in chaos are just good military tactics Army's have people who specialize in that.

Armies try to ensure that the fights they get into won't be fair and never give the enemies a break if they can help it, but as the Skrull seem to be doing they hav limits on what they will do to win.

Most of the Chaos and hatred is self-inflicted the Skrulls just appeared to push the stupidity and hatred along bit. If the bigotry and irrational fear was not there to start with it would have done them no good/

They haven't tortured their prisoners that we have seen, and infiltration and spies are part of War. Sowing dissent in chaos are just good military tactics not particularly evil. Most of the Chaos and hatred is self inflicted the Skrull just appeared to push the stupidity and hatred along, they are just taking the opportunity offered,


They are the enemy and they should be fought but they so far are less evil than ONE or Shields worst.

Considering a sect of the Skrulls enslaved people in the Savage Land, and were even killing them, I wouldn't put them below SHIELD's own actions -- which, of course, were perhaps being led along by Skrulls in positions of power to begin with. Now, I'm not arguing that there's anything wrong with the Skrull's tactics, and even said they were smart considering the firepower Earth would have had at their disposal. But it still doesn't make the tactics straight. Whether it be our own military tactics, or that of an alien race, it's still not "straight", but it is necessary during a war.

Also, the Skrulls DID come in swingin'. Their plan is to absorb our own cultures, and I doubt very much that anyone opposing them is going to get a slap on the wrist. Alien fascism. While they think they can help humanity, I doubt their kind of leadership and governance is exactly what we need. We're individualistic, for the most part, and they are not.

[CyberHubbs]

...so will the human resistance be labeled terrorists by the Skrull government?

never mind..

No. Gawd, man.

Insurgents.

[mikekerr3]

Considering a sect of the Skrulls enslaved people in the Savage Land, and were even killing them, I wouldn't put them below SHIELD's own actions -- which, of course, were perhaps being led along by Skrulls in positions of power to begin with. Now, I'm not arguing that there's anything wrong with the Skrull's tactics, and even said they were smart considering the firepower Earth would have had at their disposal. But it still doesn't make the tactics straight. Whether it be our own military tactics, or that of an alien race, it's still not "straight", but it is necessary during a war.

Also, the Skrulls DID come in swingin'. Their plan is to absorb our own cultures, and I doubt very much that anyone opposing them is going to get a slap on the wrist. Alien fascism. While they think they can help humanity, I doubt their kind of leadership and governance is exactly what we need. We're individualistic, for the most part, and they are not.

I had forgotten about the killing in the Savage land, but still put them above Shield. The Skrull killed some Sheild killed all.

I don't think the Skrull would be good for humanity, but I don't think the current MU goverments, if they are not Skrulls, are good for humanity either. Maybe some good will come out of the SI shake-up, but if it remains the place where the goverment and and all thee agencies are still so corrupt and malignant IO think that mainstreream marvel will see the last of me.

For example now in the X-factor ONE is telling the X-fator that they have to work for the goverment or else, Thats not what a free country allows.

[CyberHubbs]

I had forgotten about the killing in the Savage land, but still put them above Shield. The Skrull killed some Sheild killed all.

SHIELD went after the Skrulls; they weren't purposely targeting the slaves. And the way they were being treated, do you really think the Skrulls would have left any witnesses after they were done?

I don't think the Skrull would be good for humanity, but I don't think the current MU goverments, if they are not Skrulls, are good for humanity either. Maybe some good will come out of the SI shake-up, but if it remains the place where the goverment and and all thee agencies are still so corrupt and malignant IO think that mainstreream marvel will see the last of me.

Problem is, corruption in the government sells better. Unfortunately, when you stretch that across twenty different titles where some shady, nefarious agent from Level 58 (GASP! But there's only supposed to be 57! What is this Shadow Level?!) is out to get the hero, the entire thing tends to seem corrupt.

For example now in the X-factor ONE is telling the X-fator that they have to work for the goverment or else, Thats not what a free country allows.

Well, America is not perfectly free. Never has been as long as you have a very small group of old white men dictating from their seats of power.

X-Factor is merely being reeled into all of that nonsense, but to what end? In PAD's defense, he's so far been solid. I wouldn't expect him to screw you or other fans over.

[Spiffy]

I think the point it's making about war is that those in power (military and political leaders) are evil and manipulating innocent citizens into warring for them.

so while some of the skrull priests, or even the empress may be evil, the actual soldiers aren't.

except the new super-skrulls who volunteered to be engines of death out of their deep hatred for earth people.

-T
I actually DON'T think that was the point. It seemed like too specific a statement to me for it to be some kind of blanket statement on the roles of soldiers and leaders.

Assuming this wasn't just a side story with no importance, I'm taking it to mean that (at least in the better written stories in SI), we're supposed to be perceiving shades of gray. Sure, you can't clean up "invading another planet" all that much, but I think we could (hopefully) have some key point in the story where we return to the Empress' P.O.V. and learn more about her motives, which will admittedly be ruthless, but if written correctly would be tempered by her trying to distinguish herself from earlier Skrull rulers, who conquered for "the wrong reasons". Her reason will be more like "God told me to do it... to save all of you".

Basically, the entire story would be a parallel to The Crusades. Why did the Crusaders invade the Holy Land? Why to save the heathens, of course. Only in retrospect, in modern thinking, do we see how truly despicable that was.

Played to the hilt, this would make SI a much better story than it seems to be playing out as otherwise, at least so far.

[CyberCoyote]

I agree with the consensus. As the human race we perceive them as Evil because they're looking to take over your world. Just like a colony of ants in my front yard consider me evil because I'm always out there with spray endangering their existence. The squirrels in my yard think my dog is evil because he chases 'em down with full intent on shaking them out of their skin.

But just because they may not be monstrous evil creatures who achieve physical pleasure by causing wanton destruction with no goal other than bring pain and suffering to others doesn't mean the MU should take pity on them. (hmm.. that does seem to describe a lot of SHIELD agents, though..)

[Tanjint]

I actually DON'T think that was the point. It seemed like too specific a statement to me for it to be some kind of blanket statement on the roles of soldiers and leaders.

Assuming this wasn't just a side story with no importance, I'm taking it to mean that (at least in the better written stories in SI), we're supposed to be perceiving shades of gray. Sure, you can't clean up "invading another planet" all that much, but I think we could (hopefully) have some key point in the story where we return to the Empress' P.O.V. and learn more about her motives, which will admittedly be ruthless, but if written correctly would be tempered by her trying to distinguish herself from earlier Skrull rulers, who conquered for "the wrong reasons". Her reason will be more like "God told me to do it... to save all of you".

Basically, the entire story would be a parallel to The Crusades. Why did the Crusaders invade the Holy Land? Why to save the heathens, of course. Only in retrospect, in modern thinking, do we see how truly despicable that was.

Played to the hilt, this would make SI a much better story than it seems to be playing out as otherwise, at least so far.


I don't think our interpretations are all that different.

Even the wars we're involved in today have tons of religious influence but even that's an excuse for those in power (the really evil ones) to manipulate innocent soliders to secure more power for them.

Most wars are like that, with a few evil people sending tons and tons of people to kill each other while they chill in their respective ivory towers.

-T

[Magneto Rocks]

:While yeah, they're not necesarilly evil... in SI with the dissections and public executions and the campaign of lies and all, I'd say they're more evil than they have been.

[Dorsai]

I would compare the Skrull invasion to the Crusades.

During the Crusades, you had religious zealots brining faith at the point of a sword. If any of the Muslim's had been able to read minds, they would have determined that many (not all) Christian's viewed the Crusades as a way to spread their faith...and get some land in the process.

The Skrulls also view this invasion as a way to spread their faith...and get some land in the process.

It has been stated in a few different books that their goal is not to destroy but to convert and take over. They have also been spewing propoganda to the public in an attempt to make it as bloodless a takeover as possible.

The Skrulls see this as a win-win situation. They save OUR souls and THEY get another planet.

[spidarwin]

Venus isn't a goddess, actually, but a siren. Still a mythological creature.


Do WHAT?

I can find no source for the siren statement.
I've found several stating she's daughter of Dione and Zeus, and one
saying she sprung forth from the sea following some titan's genitals
being tossed into it.

Marvel Comics' version is based on the Dione/Zeus goddess idea.

I think your siren statement is bunk.

If you think you have a source saying otherwise, please post a link.
:)

[mikekerr3]

SHIELD went after the Skrulls; they weren't purposely targeting the slaves. And the way they were being treated, do you really think the Skrulls would have left any witnesses after they were done?

Sheild had no idea that Skrull weere involved, Shiels killed rouge shield agents and covered the fact that a faction of SHield was in the slavert buisness. If there is any evidence that Shield knew there were Skrull there nobody has been able to finf it, No evidence at all,



Problem is, corruption in the government sells better. Unfortunately, when you stretch that across twenty different titles where some shady, nefarious agent from Level 58 (GASP! But there's only supposed to be 57! What is this Shadow Level?!) is out to get the hero, the entire thing tends to seem corrupt.

ONE was torting POWs in the pentagon for christs sake, that was not a rouge faction.

Shield built a flyng Torture building and put a madman/sadist in charge that was not a rouge element.

The director of ONE is trying to draft/enslave the X-factor just because people hate them, she is attacking the X-factor instead of the people who threaten them.

The White house (see BP) is actively searching for reasons to go to war with Wakanda,

This is not small corrupt factions it the majority of the system.




Well, America is not perfectly free. Never has been as long as you have a very small group of old white men dictating from their seats of power.

X-Factor is merely being reeled into all of that nonsense, but to what end? In PAD's defense, he's so far been solid. I wouldn't expect him to screw you or other fans over.

The most evil people shown are young thin white women with big breasts:biggrin:

If the work for ONE that will be that last X-factor I ever read., It told good stories and I like Val Cooper, PAD is turning her into a soulless thug.

Rictor should have pulled the trigger in self defense she is worse than an evil android.

[mikekerr3]

I agree with the consensus. As the human race we perceive them as Evil because they're looking to take over your world. Just like a colony of ants in my front yard consider me evil because I'm always out there with spray endangering their existence. The squirrels in my yard think my dog is evil because he chases 'em down with full intent on shaking them out of their skin.

But just because they may not be monstrous evil creatures who achieve physical pleasure by causing wanton destruction with no goal other than bring pain and suffering to others doesn't mean the MU should take pity on them. (hmm.. that does seem to describe a lot of SHIELD agents, though..)

Not so many of the Agents but Hill comes to mind and now Cooper from ONE. Hill make Gyrich look compassionate and Cooper is now in the slave business.

[Magneto Rocks]

Huh, I was wondering how long it would take before Mikekerr totally changed the subject from Skrulls and began ranting incoherently about how SHIELD should burn in Hell.

[spidarwin]

Huh, I was wondering how long it would take before Mikekerr totally changed the subject from Skrulls and began ranting incoherently about how SHIELD should burn in Hell.

I wasn't. *shrug* :)

Ok. Now, I'm pretty sure that, regardless of what we're shown, nobody's going
to side with the Skrulls for justification for overthrow and occupation of Earth.
It's not as divisive an issue as SHRA or Civil War or vigilantism, and trying
to present it as such in an extended forum is prettymuch a waste of time.

[CyberHubbs]

Do WHAT?

I can find no source for the siren statement.
I've found several stating she's daughter of Dione and Zeus, and one
saying she sprung forth from the sea following some titan's genitals
being tossed into it.

Marvel Comics' version is based on the Dione/Zeus goddess idea.

I think your siren statement is bunk.

If you think you have a source saying otherwise, please post a link.
:)

It was noted in the Agents of Atlas mini-series, and again later mentioned -- I believe -- in the Secret Invasion: Who Do You Trust? book.

[Spiffy]

I would compare the Skrull invasion to the Crusades.

During the Crusades, you had religious zealots brining faith at the point of a sword. If any of the Muslim's had been able to read minds, they would have determined that many (not all) Christian's viewed the Crusades as a way to spread their faith...and get some land in the process.

The Skrulls also view this invasion as a way to spread their faith...and get some land in the process.

It has been stated in a few different books that their goal is not to destroy but to convert and take over. They have also been spewing propoganda to the public in an attempt to make it as bloodless a takeover as possible.

The Skrulls see this as a win-win situation. They save OUR souls and THEY get another planet.
Yeah, I kinda did that comparison a few posts ago. But you have given it more detail.

Again, I'd like to see this notion actively explored in the books rather than just loosely implied. It wouldn't be that weird for someone in the M.U. to note the similarities, since I believe the Crusades still happened in their universe.

[Flâneur]

Do WHAT?

I can find no source for the siren statement.
I've found several stating she's daughter of Dione and Zeus, and one
saying she sprung forth from the sea following some titan's genitals
being tossed into it.

Marvel Comics' version is based on the Dione/Zeus goddess idea.

I think your siren statement is bunk.

If you think you have a source saying otherwise, please post a link.
:)

They're not talking about the actual Grecian myth - there are huge variations and liberties taken so as to please various writers' whims. So don't depend on the actual myths as a source. However in this case, she's not even the 'real Venus' [Aphrodite], it's just an identity she created for herself to block out her own shame at her life as a siren. This was reiterated in the Agents of Atlas series not that long ago and had been shown some time before that too.

[Monty_Cristo]

I wasn't. *shrug* :)

Ok. Now, I'm pretty sure that, regardless of what we're shown, nobody's going
to side with the Skrulls for justification for overthrow and occupation of Earth.
It's not as divisive an issue as SHRA or Civil War or vigilantism, and trying
to present it as such in an extended forum is prettymuch a waste of time.

Eric O'Grady would if he saw that the skrulls were winning. so would Constrictor and Taskmaster, i bet.

[StoneGold]

Do WHAT?

I can find no source for the siren statement.
I've found several stating she's daughter of Dione and Zeus, and one
saying she sprung forth from the sea following some titan's genitals
being tossed into it.

Marvel Comics' version is based on the Dione/Zeus goddess idea.

I think your siren statement is bunk.

If you think you have a source saying otherwise, please post a link.
:)
Others answered the question, but here's a semi-definitive link.

http://www.marvel.com/universe/Venus

And really, if you were looking for sources and didn't check her entry on the Marvel website, you didn't go too far.