The Bat-family doesnt fit into the DC Universe...

[frostedone]

It seems to me that the Bat-family and their respective comics do not fit in well with the rest of the DCU.

This is just my opinion of course, but here are my reasons:

Batman and the other Bat-family stories are usually written best when the rest of the DCU is ignored. His comics function best when there is as little "fantasy" as possible with a few exceptions. His stories have a much more realistic quality to them, then say Superman or Wonder Woman. The Bat-family comics are not completely realistic, more like a few steps away from real life where things are just believable enough to seem like it could happen.

One bad fantasy example is a few years ago when the Penguin mutilated Scarecrow into this huge Scare Beast creature and batman had to don a giant suit of armor to trade punches with him. It felt out of place. It works with Superman, where you can have two super powered beings beating the crap out of each other, but that removes most of the suspense from the story. I mean we know nether will get too badly hurt, just cause a lot of property damage.

It is a good thing Scarecrow reverted back.

Another bad fantasy example is the Dinosaur redesign of Killer Croc. Killer Croc was better when he was just a human with a lizard like appearance.

A good fantasy example would be Ra's Al Ghul. Sure nothing in Real Life can resurrect the dead, or prolong life that much, but in the Lazarus Pit's case it makes it believable enough.

Other than the Lazarus Pit's though resurrection and magic does not work in Batman comics.

In fact the WORST THING to happen to Batman in recent years was the Resurrection of Jason Todd.

The death of Jason Todd was meant to be permanent, and it has clearly affected Batman is a huge and lasting way for all these years, but now that he was brought back, it is like it didn't really matter after all. Plus Superboy-prime punch was really lame.

Look at the Bat-families villains, Joker, Two-Face, Riddler, Deathstroke, and the other villains are all humans. Sure Deathstroke is borderline Meta Human, but the way he got those abilities was more realistic. Deathstroke is more like an enhanced human then say Superman's abilities. He is like an evil Batman.

Look at Gotham's protectors, Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Oracle, Huntress, and co are all human. Look at the Outsiders: most are low powered to non super powered people.

EDIT: What I meant was the Bat-Family Books work best by when the rest of the DCU is kept to a minimum.

Books like The Outsiders, Teen Titans, Birds of Prey, and Justice League where Bat Characters are a part in is fine.

Also appearing in other DCU books as guest stars works well.

I will put this in my opening post too.

[vazel]

Hype for Nolan's Dark Knight movie at work.

[Bat-Reader]

Hype for Nolan's Dark Knight movie at work.

Nope, i don't know how super old people see Batman but this's The Batman i know and love.

[Spiffy]

Nope, i don't know how super old people see Batman but this's The Batman i know and love.
{pretending to be a tadpole mode on}

Yeah! Anyone older than twelve is totally out of it! Screw you, ancient people in their teens and twenties.

{/pretending to be a tadpole mode off}


Really, this is a ridiculous attitude. Nolan's concept of Batman isn't all that different (its more of an evolution than a revolution), and its only 3 years old. To act like people who remember a Batman from more than 3 years ago are creaking, ancient oldsters is...

Well, I guess there must be babies and small children involved. Because someone who seriously thinks that all other Batman incarnations, like, lets say, the Batman Animated version, are "super old" would have to be little more than a child to have that perspective.

[Bat-Reader]

{pretending to be a tadpole mode on}

Yeah! Anyone older than twelve is totally out of it! Screw you, ancient people in their teens and twenties.

{/pretending to be a tadpole mode off}


Really, this is a ridiculous attitude. Nolan's concept of Batman isn't all that different (its more of an evolution than a revolution), and its only 3 years old. To act like people who remember a Batman from more than 3 years ago are creaking, ancient oldsters is...

Well, I guess there must be babies and small children involved. Because someone who seriously thinks that all other Batman incarnations, like, lets say, the Batman Animated version, are "super old" would have to be little more than a child to have that perspective.

I grew up with Batman tas. And yes it is not much different then Nolan version. When i said super old i was talking about 1960 and 1970.

[Super Buddies Forever]

Batman definitely works better when the larger DCU is ignored. Basically, my view on it is thusly: The DCU should rarely be referenced in a Bat book, if ever. We definitely shouldn't see guest appearances by Superman or any other cosmic character. However, the rest of the DC line should view those books as part of their universe. Batman can appear in Superman without spoiling the world, but it rarely works the other way around.

That's why I hate questions like "why doesn't the Justice League just clean up the No Man's Land? Why doesn't Barbara Gordon heal herself using wacky DCU tech or magic?" That's why the Bat books should only be a vague part of the DCU, much like Vertigo properties such as Swam Thing or Hellraiser.

When wondering if something is a bit too out there for Batman, I look at it like this: Would you be able to successfully convert that story into a Batman movie or television series? With most of Batman's history, yes. With Superboy Prime altering reality so that Jason Todd lives again... oh my no.

[Samy]

So what would you want? The entirety of his Titans career removed from Dick Grayson's character? That he never fought Trigon, never led the Titans, never fell in love with Starfire, never led the Justice League during Obsidian Age?

Excise everything from his background that has the least bit of color, and only leave in fighting some henchmen and ninjas with guns and swords on cruddy streets?

If so, I could not disagree more.

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

The best Brave and the Bold adventures were those in which Batman teamed up with the non-super powered heros like Green Arrow and Richard Dragon. If he teamed with Green Lantern or Flash, it just wasn't as good.

[Bat-Reader]

So what would you want? The entirety of his Titans career removed from Dick Grayson's character? That he never fought Trigon, never led the Titans, never fell in love with Starfire, never led the Justice League during Obsidian Age?

Excise everything from his background that has the least bit of color, and only leave in fighting some henchmen and ninjas with guns and swords on cruddy streets?

If so, I could not disagree more.

No, he says Nightwing shouldn't fight with trigon in Batman comics or Nightwing comics but he can involve in wecky adventures with rest of the universe.

Vertigo Batman... it sounds like a great dream... just Batman in total darkness with his black cape... darkness and crime...No Superman appreances... no heyo ! i crush the party with bocket of sun shine in my basket my super pal best friend !, no robin, not even Nightwing and Batgirl (Cassandra). Just lone Batman and his none tight cast...(like Gordon and Harvey) and martial arts, ninjas, yakuza and mafia, etc. lots of criminals. and ofcouse best of his villains gallery. How great would that be...

[Pól Rua]

Seriously, this is true of 90% of mainstream superhero characters.
One of the downsides of the current obsession with continuity is that it's hard to get excited by, say, Hawkman, when Superman's dropping by every other week.

"Oh yeah? You can fly... yeah, so can I. Plus I got a bunch of other powers. You? No? That's it. Just the flying thing? Good for you."

Aquaman's another one.

Most of DC's characters work best when they are allowed to be the stars in their own stories and their own KINDS OF stories rather than living in each other's pockets.

[Dard]

I think the rest of the DC Universe should only very sparingly used in stories of the Bat family. It's not so much of a problem if Bats is involved in the rest of the DC Universe with one big exception: Cosmic Events.
He and his supporting cast are useless in events like Infinite Crisis. Too often it feels if those stories are modified specifically to make sense having an underpowered detective in such events. The plot should dictate the story, not the intent to squeeze one character into it.

Then there are the "hybrid" series with both Bat characters and characters of the rest of the DC universe together. Young Justice. Teen Titans. Maybe Birds of Prey. I think they worked surprisingly well in the past. But keep them separate from the Batbooks as well. The Teen Titans shouldn't appear anywhere in the Batbooks for example. And the hybrid series should avoid to take part in cosmic events too much. Once in a while is fine however.

However, never ever should it be taken into consideration to isolate Batman from his supporting cast. Batman alone just can't pull his weight. Maybe in one single series, but not in two and certainly not in more. He needs characters like Tim Drake, Nightwing, Oracle to avoid getting boring and extended supporters like Batgirl, Catwoman, Huntress or even Spoiler to really shine.

Keep the bat-family together and little can go wrong.

[TeamED209]

I really enjoyed the jason todd ark's in batman i know im one of the few but hey and i also think sparce apperances from other dc characters is good to show that batman is actually in the dcu..and besided when was the last time we saw superman in any of the main batman books..i enjoyed the green lantern issue with batman in when he gets to try on the ring, thats the sort of stories i wouldn't mind reading every now and again.otherwise i agree with you

[Samy]

No, he says Nightwing shouldn't fight with trigon in Batman comics or Nightwing comicsWhy not in Nightwing comics? Half of the character is superhero and half is street vigilante. You're completely ignoring 50% of the character if you just allow street vigilante stories in his solo title.

The dude took his name from a story Superman told him, for god's sakes. Not Batman -- Superman. He spent half his life leading a *major* DCU super-team. You can't just suddenly *ignore* that whole part of his life in his very own title. That's half of who he is. His solo title should be about all he is, not just about a specific sub-section of his life.

It's the same as if Amazing Spider-Man should only be about college.

[b..]

Vertigo Batman... it sounds like a great dream... just Batman in total darkness with his black cape... darkness and crime...No Superman appreances... no heyo ! i crush the party with bocket of sun shine in my basket my super pal best friend !, no robin, not even Nightwing and Batgirl (Cassandra). Just lone Batman and his none tight cast...(like Gordon and Harvey) and martial arts, ninjas, yakuza and mafia, etc. lots of criminals. and ofcouse best of his villains gallery. How great would that be...

so, basically, you wanna read batman-done-as-daredevil?

[Bat-Reader]

so, basically, you wanna read batman-done-as-daredevil?

No, that's daredevil done as Batman.

Why not in Nightwing comics? Half of the character is superhero and half is street vigilante. You're completely ignoring 50% of the character if you just allow street vigilante stories in his solo title.

The dude took his name from a story Superman told him, for god's sakes. Not Batman -- Superman. He spent half his life leading a *major* DCU super-team. You can't just suddenly *ignore* that whole part of his life in his very own title. That's half of who he is. His solo title should be about all he is, not just about a specific sub-section of his life.

It's the same as if Amazing Spider-Man should only be about college.

Flash's appearance was sweet and everything but come on... do you really want Nightwing to fight trigon in his own series all by himself ?

[The Cool Thatguy]

Flash's appearance was sweet and everything but come on... do you really want Nightwing to fight trigon in his own series all by himself ?

Nightwing's never done that, nor was that the suggestion.

Rather, he was pointing out how you limit the character by removing the superhero influences on his character and title. Otherwise, he's just a lesser, inferior Batman with no 'trait' to call his own.

[Bat-Reader]

Nightwing's never done that, nor was that the suggestion.

Rather, he was pointing out how you limit the character by removing the superhero influences on his character and title. Otherwise, he's just a lesser, inferior Batman with no 'trait' to call his own.

I didn't remove anything. Fighting criminals and more street level villains will not change that Superman named him or anything.

[b..]

[QUOTE=Bat-Reader;7044541]No, that's daredevil done as Batman.

i appreciate that batman came first and i apologise if the remake came off as facetious, in retrospect i've also just realised that frank millar had a major role in crafting how both characters are viewed today; hence the obvious similarities.

but, however sweet a batman title might be with him not interacting with the wider dc universe may be, he's one of the cornerstones of that expanded universe and for him not to communicate or acknowledge it isn't really feasible. i agree that in his solo title, it works best when the contact is kept to a minium, but it should still be there.

[Bat-Reader]

They don't have to rip Batman off from the main stream DC Universe. They can do something like a All Star series. It sounds pretty resonable to me. A main stream DC Batman, All Star Batman and now a Vertigo Batman that really really dark and blah blah all the things i said one of the preview messages.

[The Cool Thatguy]

I didn't remove anything. Fighting criminals and more street level villains will not change that Superman named him or anything.

It sure doesn't high light his hero connections either. Sticking to street thugs and sociopaths with gimmicks is Batman's sticke. Nightwing needs something of equal importance but different to have his own role, and that works best with superhero stuff.

Leader of the Titans, the first sidekick to create his own identity and the most respected second generation hero ever. If you ignore the greater DCU with regards to Nightwing, then you functionally negate what makes him different and equal to Batman.

[Bat-Reader]

It sure doesn't high light his hero connections either. Sticking to street thugs and sociopaths with gimmicks is Batman's sticke. Nightwing needs something of equal importance but different to have his own role, and that works best with superhero stuff.

Leader of the Titans, the first sidekick to create his own identity and the most respected second generation hero ever. If you ignore the greater DCU with regards to Nightwing, then you functionally negate what makes him different and equal to Batman.

So to maintain all of this Nightwing has to wrestle with giant monsters, trigon and things like that rather than fight against crime in his own series. Is that it ?

[The Cool Thatguy]

So to maintain all of this Nightwing has to wrestle with giant monsters, trigon and things like that rather than fight against crime in his own series. Is that it ?

Why do you keep focusing on Trigon and such? You act as if he's the sum total of Nightwing's experience on the Teen Titans. Drop it already, yeesh.

Bolt, Count Vertigo, Chiller, Rag Doll are all excellent human level foes who can physically challenge Nightwing, for instance. Same with a new Wilderbeast Society, or a resurrected Gizmo. Heck, no reason why solo members of the Brotherhood of Evil can't make a run at Nightwing when he's 'alone'.

Nightwing could investigate the framing of a former Titan. He could teach a rookie hero the basics or intercept a HIVE weapons shipment. Or he could help a family descended from Vandal Savage escape into some form of witness protection.

The possibilities are endless and shirt the line enough to keep with his noir background/upbringing.

The alternative is that he's the optimistic, light hearted hero in a verse that's pessimistic and dark as a rule, meaning he'll always be proven wrong or at least off all the time. He'll always be Batman's inferior and never his equal. I fail to see how that's a better alternative.

[Bat-Reader]

Why do you keep focusing on Trigon and such? You act as if he's the sum total of Nightwing's experience on the Teen Titans. Drop it already, yeesh.

Bolt, Count Vertigo, Chiller, Rag Doll are all excellent human level foes who can physically challenge Nightwing, for instance. Same with a new Wilderbeast Society, or a resurrected Gizmo. Heck, no reason why solo members of the Brotherhood of Evil can't make a run at Nightwing when he's 'alone'.

Nightwing could investigate the framing of a former Titan. He could teach a rookie hero the basics or intercept a HIVE weapons shipment. Or he could help a family descended from Vandal Savage escape into some form of witness protection.

The possibilities are endless and shirt the line enough to keep with his noir background/upbringing.

The alternative is that he's the optimistic, light hearted hero in a verse that's pessimistic and dark as a rule, meaning he'll always be proven wrong or at least off all the time. He'll always be Batman's inferior and never his equal. I fail to see how that's a better alternative.

The options you listed up there are pretty resonable and sounds nice and steet lvl. Aspecially regdoll and Ninghtwing's physicalty can really make some beautiful roff top fight pages.

I was talking about Trigon couse that's the most solid exsample of very super natural character that Nightwing shouldn't deal in his series. That's why i said "trigon and things like that."

[WorstThingUS]

Someone needs to learn a little bit of history considering Batman's earliest adventures had him fighting vampires and Hugo Strange's monster men. It was fantastic from the beginning.

And the "DC" in "DCU"? Ironically Stands for "Detective Comics." So if anything, they're in his universe.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Someone needs to learn a little bit of history considering Batman's earliest adventures had him fighting vampires and Hugo Strange's monster men. It was fantastic from the beginning.

And the "DC" in "DCU"? Ironically Stands for "Detective Comics." So if anything, they're in his universe.

I wouldn't point to the era that gave us 'slap a jap' and loads of Super dickery as examples of good writing ;)

For my tastes, Batman should be largely noir in his own title with sprinkles super heroics. Having Superman show up randomly is bad. Having Superman show up as a foil is good. A change in tone once and a while helps keep things fresh.

But writers should remember that what works for Batman doesn't work for the entire 'Family'. Nightwing works better interacting with heroes, Batgirl works better against the KGBeasts, Deadshots etc. of the Bat-verse and Birds of Prey work best completely in the DCU.

One size doesn't fit all, as the saying goes.

[Bat-Reader]

Someone needs to learn a little bit of history considering Batman's earliest adventures had him fighting vampires and Hugo Strange's monster men. It was fantastic from the beginning.

And the "DC" in "DCU"? Ironically Stands for "Detective Comics." So if anything, they're in his universe.

I think that some one is me :biggrin: I don't consider every Batman story as happened if they ruin what i know as Batman. Especially that really old terrible ones...

Batman fights vampires has a intruging adge actually (from a goth point of view - dark/bloody story) i really like that Vampire Batman elseworld.

[WorstThingUS]

I wouldn't point to the era that gave us 'slap a jap' and loads of Super dickery as examples of good writing ;)

For my tastes, Batman should be largely noir in his own title with sprinkles super heroics. Having Superman show up randomly is bad. Having Superman show up as a foil is good. A change in tone once and a while helps keep things fresh.

But writers should remember that what works for Batman doesn't work for the entire 'Family'. Nightwing works better interacting with heroes, Batgirl works better against the KGBeasts, Deadshots etc. of the Bat-verse and Birds of Prey work best completely in the DCU.

One size doesn't fit all, as the saying goes.

Super-Dickery was borne in the 50's. Batman was fighting monsters and vampires in 1939.

And there just aren't any hard and fast rules regarding these characters. As the last few years have shown us, you can have Batman just fighting non-powered villains and still have incredibly crappy stories, while he shone in his recent encounter with the Legion of Superheroes in The Brave & The Bold. In fact it's limited thinking like "Batman can only do this..." that leads to bad stories.

[Bat-Reader]

Super-Dickery was borne in the 50's. Batman was fighting monsters and vampires in 1939.

And there just aren't any hard and fast rules regarding these characters. As the last few years have shown us, you can have Batman just fighting non-powered villains and still have incredibly crappy stories, while he shone in his recent encounter with the Legion of Superheroes in The Brave & The Bold. In fact it's limited thinking like "Batman can only do this..." that leads to bad stories.

sorry dude, no limiteless thinking for old man.

I have seen some parts of that "limitless thinking" with pink alien batman and very very not bright things... that i don't really want to mantione... i witnesed things that no mortal should... so no way. No "limitless thinking". Street level or screaw you guys i'm going home.

[Choppa]

Tell us something we don't know...

[Bat-Reader]

Tell us something we don't know...

who ? me ?

[Mr.EZ]

It seems to me that the Bat-family and their respective comics do not fit in well with the rest of the DCU.

This is just my opinion of course, but here are my reasons:

Batman and the other Bat-family stories are usually written best when the rest of the DCU is ignored. His comics function best when there is as little "fantasy" as possible with a few exceptions. His stories have a much more realistic quality to them, then say Superman or Wonder Woman. The Bat-family comics are not completely realistic, more like a few steps away from real life where things are just believable enough to seem like it could happen.

One bad fantasy example is a few years ago when the Penguin mutilated Scarecrow into this huge Scare Beast creature and batman had to don a giant suit of armor to trade punches with him. It felt out of place. It works with Superman, where you can have two super powered beings beating the crap out of each other, but that removes most of the suspense from the story. I mean we know nether will get too badly hurt, just cause a lot of property damage.

It is a good thing Scarecrow reverted back.

Another bad fantasy example is the Dinosaur redesign of Killer Croc. Killer Croc was better when he was just a human with a lizard like appearance.

A good fantasy example would be Ra's Al Ghul. Sure nothing in Real Life can resurrect the dead, or prolong life that much, but in the Lazarus Pit's case it makes it believable enough.

Other than the Lazarus Pit's though resurrection and magic does not work in Batman comics.

In fact the WORST THING to happen to Batman in recent years was the Resurrection of Jason Todd.

The death of Jason Todd was meant to be permanent, and it has clearly affected Batman is a huge and lasting way for all these years, but now that he was brought back, it is like it didn't really matter after all. Plus Superboy-prime punch was really lame.

Look at the Bat-families villains, Joker, Two-Face, Riddler, Deathstroke, and the other villains are all humans. Sure Deathstroke is borderline Meta Human, but the way he got those abilities was more realistic. Deathstroke is more like an enhanced human then say Superman's abilities. He is like an evil Batman.

Look at Gotham's protectors, Batman, Robin, Nightwing, Batgirl, Oracle, Huntress, and co are all human. Look at the Outsiders: most are low powered to non super powered people.

You're completely right. DC needs to start giving super-powers to Batman and his associates immediately, so they don't stick out so much.

[frostedone]

What I meant was the Bat-Family Books work best by when the rest of the DCU is kept to a minimum.

Books like The Outsiders, Teen Titans, Birds of Prey, and Justice League where Bat Characters are a part in is fine.

Also appearing in other DCU books as guest stars works well.

I will put this in my opening post too.

[Samy]

Not all Bat-family books.

The rest of the DCU is *core* to Dick Grayson's character. To someone like Huntress, it might not be a big deal and a fundamental part of her character might not be removed if you stuck strictly to the Gotham Ghetto, but for Dick Grayson's character, it'd be cleaving away half his character if the rest of the DCU is kept to a minimum.

It's like saying Oracle works best when not at the computer. It's removing a fundamental part of the character.

[Alan2099]

Tell us something we don't know...

13 years before Batman first appeared in comics there was a silent film character called The Bat. He was a criminal that dressed up in a bat costume with long pointed ears and cape and killed other criminals. He got around rooftops using a grappling hook system, used a "utility bag", and had a bat signal that he'd shine around to help him terrorize people others. He lurked around alot in the shadows and appeared in clouds of smoke to make his dramatic entrances.

How's that? Did you know that?

[carabas]

I didn't know he had a utility bag...

[Choppa]

who ? me ?

No the threadstarter. Saying that Batman doesn't fit with the rest of the DCU is like saying that candy tastes good.

13 years before Batman first appeared in comics there was a silent film character called The Bat. He was a criminal that dressed up in a bat costume with long pointed ears and cape and killed other criminals. He got around rooftops using a grappling hook system, used a "utility bag", and had a bat signal that he'd shine around to help him terrorize people others. He lurked around alot in the shadows and appeared in clouds of smoke to make his dramatic entrances.

How's that? Did you know that?

I dunno, sounds kinda familliar :wink:

[Libaax]

Seriously, this is true of 90% of mainstream superhero characters.
One of the downsides of the current obsession with continuity is that it's hard to get excited by, say, Hawkman, when Superman's dropping by every other week.


Most of DC's characters work best when they are allowed to be the stars in their own stories and their own KINDS OF stories rather than living in each other's pockets.

Word !


Thats why i cringe at every crossover and event.

Thats why i dont care about Final Crisis (what BS, we should be so lucky IF it was the last event in a year even)

Thats why Batman R.I.P no matter what happens is BS in my eyes.
I dont care about Martain Manhunter dying.
I want to read Batman,NW,BB,Manhunter's OWN STORIES etc IN PEACE !



These are the times i wish i sticked to my mangas and didnt cross to side of american comics of the big two. Event fatigue is killing my interest softly...

[Pól Rua]

sorry dude, no limiteless thinking for old man.

I have seen some parts of that "limitless thinking" with pink alien batman and very very not bright things... that i don't really want to mantione... i witnesed things that no mortal should... so no way. No "limitless thinking". Street level or screaw you guys i'm going home.

I declare your position bogus.

Seriously, one of the strengths of Batman is that he can be fighting Martians with the Justice League one minute, battling vampires in Transylvania the next, slugging it out with mobsters in the mean streets of Gotham City, solving a baffling locked-room murder, engaging in globe-trotting James Bond-style espionage while tracking down Ra's al-Ghul's latest superweapon. Batman works for all sorts of stories.

As long as the stories are GOOD, they work.

Admittedly, it's EASIER to write a good, street-level Batman story. But if you can tell a great Espionage, Science Fiction, Horror, Mystery, Comedy, Adventure, or straight Superhero story using Batman, more power to you.

As far as I'm concerned, the only limit should be, "Is This A Good Story?"

If yes, then go for your life.

[earl]

When was the last time Superman showed up either in Batman or Detective? It has to have been quite a while. I know he showed up during No Man's Land, but other than that nothing else rings a bell.

Really since 'One Year Later', the Batman titles have been fairly isolated from the whole "Bat-family" thing except for Robin and Nightwing, who regularly guest star in the books.

I think it is fairly easy to ignore the rest of the DC Universe if you just read the regular Batman titles. There does not seem to be that much cross reference, although the Outsiders did end up showing up in the last issue of Gotham Underground.

[Bat-Reader]

I declare your position bogus.

Seriously, one of the strengths of Batman is that he can be fighting Martians with the Justice League one minute, battling vampires in Transylvania the next, slugging it out with mobsters in the mean streets of Gotham City, solving a baffling locked-room murder, engaging in globe-trotting James Bond-style espionage while tracking down Ra's al-Ghul's latest superweapon. Batman works for all sorts of stories.

As long as the stories are GOOD, they work.

Admittedly, it's EASIER to write a good, street-level Batman story. But if you can tell a great Espionage, Science Fiction, Horror, Mystery, Comedy, Adventure, or straight Superhero story using Batman, more power to you.

As far as I'm concerned, the only limit should be, "Is This A Good Story?"

If yes, then go for your life.

and i declare your position bogus +1 (i have no mercy)

Street lvl can make really nice horror and mystery. And i like the Sci fie part to some extend, Batmobile, Batwing and some decent gagets and things like that oh and brother eye was cool actually. But when you abandone the street level... the character lose his purpese, Batman is about fight against crime, the promise he gave to his parent leave in the air when you rip the character off from street. And believe me if i wanted comedy i wouldn't read Batman.

[Pól Rua]

and i declare your position bogus +1 (i have no mercy)

Street lvl can make really nice horror and mystery. And i like the Sci fie part to some extend, Batmobile, Batwing and some decent gagets and things like that oh and brother eye was cool actually. But when you abandone the street level... the character lose his purpese, Batman is about fight against crime, the promise he gave to his parent leave in the air when you rip the character off from street. And believe me if i wanted comedy i wouldn't read Batman.

Crime doesn't just happen on streets.

[Bat-Reader]

Crime doesn't just happen on streets.

Then Superman can handle it.

[carabas]

Batman is about fight against crime, the promise he gave to his parent leave in the air when you rip the character off from street.I don't recall him vowing to fight streetcrime exclusively, and leaving the heavy lifting to eal crimefighters.

[Pól Rua]

Then Superman can handle it.

Which takes me back to THIS post.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=7044324&postcount=10

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every issue should be Batman going to Saturn to fight turtle men, but I'm utterly against imposing these sorts of unrealistic and unnecessary restrictions on a character, when one of his main strengths is his versatility.
You can tell a multitude of different stories with Batman. It's one of the best things about him. Because he draws on pulp adventure archetypes, he fits seamlessly into almost any genre. Sure, most of his stories are going to be street-level crimethumping, but there have been any number of great globetrotting espionage stories featuring Batman. He's been in some fantastic horror stories. I've seen a bunch of thoroughly awesome traditional locked-room mysteries featuring Batman.
Science fiction, comedy, even fantasy. Heartwarming human interest, interpersonal character study, Psychodrama. Pretty much everything.

As far as I'm concerned, and as I said, it shouldn't happen every issue, but if a writer has a great idea for a Batman story, and it doesn't fit into the 'street level noir' milieu, there's no reason why a writer should have pointless and arbitrary restrictions placed on them.

[Bat-Reader]

I don't recall him vowing to fight streetcrime exclusively, and leaving the heavy lifting to eal crimefighters.

Yeah, probably he was like "a street crock killed my parents.... damn you... MONGUL ! it's all your foult cause... cause you are yellow ! damn you and your war world... i will kick your ass ! then i will get Despero and Doomsday ! i will get you all"

Which takes me back to THIS post.
http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showpost.php?p=7044324&postcount=10

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that every issue should be Batman going to Saturn to fight turtle men, but I'm utterly against imposing these sorts of unrealistic and unnecessary restrictions on a character, when one of his main strengths is his versatility.
You can tell a multitude of different stories with Batman. It's one of the best things about him. Because he draws on pulp adventure archetypes, he fits seamlessly into almost any genre. Sure, most of his stories are going to be street-level crimethumping, but there have been any number of great globetrotting espionage stories featuring Batman. He's been in some fantastic horror stories. I've seen a bunch of thoroughly awesome traditional locked-room mysteries featuring Batman.
Science fiction, comedy, even fantasy. Heartwarming human interest, interpersonal character study, Psychodrama. Pretty much everything.

As far as I'm concerned, and as I said, it shouldn't happen every issue, but if a writer has a great idea for a Batman story, and it doesn't fit into the 'street level noir' milieu, there's no reason why a writer should have pointless and arbitrary restrictions placed on them.

We are pretty much different areas guys... i kind of understand you old people. But the Batman i know since chieldhood is street lvl and he deals with real crime most of the time. He's dark, he's wise in his silence and calm but if you mass with him he would kick your ass before you realise what's going on. He's a great detective and martial artist and blah blah these are some of the major reasons why he's my favorite. I hope DC will never go nuts with his series ever again. I don't think we will have any kind of agreement with you in any point. Lets agree to disagree. :)

[greenfront]

But the Batman i know since chieldhood...

I can remember back two weeks also.

[siberia77]

The batfamily on the whole needs preened and kept small and tighter. I'm tired of the blatant lazyness of sticking batsuits on people to create interest rather than just creating interesting characters outside thebat-universe.
Batwoman? c'mon....

[nepenthes]

Yeah now that Spoiler and Leslie have been fixed something really needs to be done about that Batwoman debacle. I don't think it's a good habit just to put new characters out there - especially token gay ones - and then let them die because their introduction was sloppy. It lowers the integrity of comics. Characters should only be abandoned when they cannot be saved.

There is only ONE insurmountable problem with Kathy Kane. She's basically a female Bruce Wayne; she had a tragedy when she was young, she's a rich heiress, she trains herself in multiple forms of criminal investigation and combat, puts on the tights and decides to become Batwoman to "fight crime". As you do. But the thing is it just seems so casual for her, like anyone can do it. Where as Bruce Wayne is a special character precisely because of his obsession and dedication. There's a HUGE library of material exploring how an orphan with no superpowers can become a legend of the night, what drives him and haunts him blah blah blah. To just clone that in a female version is doing both Batman and the token lesbian a huge disservice. Like they wanted to introduce a gay hero but couldn't be bothered thinking up a proper character; that's just so stupid it defeats the point. Let's see what makes her special, why she became a vigilante, what makes her different from the rest of the bat-family apart from a cool costume and a wicked tongue. Oh yeah she also dated Renee Montoya , because all lesbians in a major city obviously know each other. From sleeping around all the time no doubt :rolleyes:

[carabas]

There is only ONE insurmountable problem with Kathy Kane. She's basically a female Bruce Wayne; she had a tragedy when she was young, she's a rich heiress, she trains herself in multiple forms of criminal investigation and combat, puts on the tights and decides to become Batwoman to "fight crime".Where are you getting all this information? All I know so far is that she's a Jewish and lesbian heiress and a former lover of Renee Montoya who for whatever reason wound up in the superhero scene. And I think I've read all of her very few appearances.

[Bat-Reader]

Yeah now that Spoiler and Leslie have been fixed something really needs to be done about that Batwoman debacle. I don't think it's a good habit just to put new characters out there - especially token gay ones - and then let them die because their introduction was sloppy. It lowers the integrity of comics. Characters should only be abandoned when they cannot be saved.

There is only ONE insurmountable problem with Kathy Kane. She's basically a female Bruce Wayne; she had a tragedy when she was young, she's a rich heiress, she trains herself in multiple forms of criminal investigation and combat, puts on the tights and decides to become Batwoman to "fight crime". As you do. But the thing is it just seems so casual for her, like anyone can do it. Where as Bruce Wayne is a special character precisely because of his obsession and dedication. There's a HUGE library of material exploring how an orphan with no superpowers can become a legend of the night, what drives him and haunts him blah blah blah. To just clone that in a female version is doing both Batman and the token lesbian a huge disservice. Likethey wanted to introduce a gay hero but couldn't be bothered thinking up a proper character; that's just so stupid it defeats the point. Let's see what makes her special, why she became a vigilante, what makes her different from the rest of the bat-family apart from a cool costume and a wicked tongue. Oh yeah she also dated Renee Montoya , because all lesbians in a major city obviously know each other. From sleeping around all the time no doubt :rolleyes:

the last part sounds good actually ehm.... :biggrin:

Yep, she's being female Bruce Wayne is lazy and cheapens how special Bruce Wayne is. She doesn't wear any costume of herself like Spoiler or Huntress, she wears The Bat costume and how Bruce allowes it ? no proper explanation. I mean what's this, is it that easy to wear that costume ? Batman gives his approval to everyone like free coupon or something. "ahhh... she already weared it well... what the heck.." kind of approach is in the air.


And i think she's being gay is a half smiling nod to that book called the seduction of innocent.

I can remember back two weeks also.

Are you talking about rip ? ( i haven't read it yet) i saw the previews and they made Batman dark there again but the too red sky has that surreal feeling that takes from it is what i think right now And it is not enough to take away that shaken trust to character's progress for the future. I don't feel same at all. I feel like they can bring in the teletubies or something any given moment.