Will Christians Be Allowed Into My Nothingness At The End Of Life?

[Gail Simone]

It's a serious question!

[Sarah Beach]

Well, there's "allowed" and there's "choose". Would one choose Nothingness over Somethingness?

:biggrin:

[WhiteRose]

As long as they don't dirty up the rug, I guess *shrugs*

[Cam63]

*Lights beerpipe and ponders ponderously*

[the4thpip]

Barry Allen was a Christian (I think!) and he was allowed in!

[scout1279]

They'll have their own special nothingness off to the right. The Catholics will be especially confused, because they thought the Pope said Limbo didn't exist anymore.

[ShaunN]

Dear Gail,

Uh - looks like an interesting question, but could you explain it a bit more? Or inform us (meaning me, since I may be the only one missing this) of the context of the question? Thanks,

Shaun

[DanCMH]

I plan on guarding the entrance to my nothingness with lesbian dinosaurs armed with rubik cubes since everyone knows that Christians are violently repelled by alternative lifestyles, evolution, and logic.

[stealthwise]

No, they'll be swallowed into the abyss during Ragnarok, just like the rest of us.

"Left behind" my ass.

[Red Jack]

BINARY- by Me

"Oh, hey. What's going on here?"
"Uh, Armageddon, pearly gates, lake of fire. Where have you been?"
"Well, dead, mostly."
"It's Judgement Day, dude. Get it in gear."
"OMG! That's REAL?"
"Seems that way."
"So that's what all these folks are lined up for?"
"Pretty much. See that little speck way down there by the gates?"
"Barely. There must be like a million people in this line."
"More, I bet. Anyway. That's Jesus down there."
"No shit."
"Straight up. JC."
"What's he doing?"
"Talking, catching up. Checking tickets."
"Tickets?"
"You know: to get in. To see the Big Guy. Heaven, man."
"Wow."
"Yeah."
"Looks like that's gonna take some time."
"Yeah."
"So, uh, where's the Buddhist line?"
"There isn't one. Christians only."
"Excuse me, what?"
"Christians only. One gate. One ticket taker. Jesus."
"What about Zoroasterans?"
"Nope."
"Shinto? Animist? Muslim?"
"Nope, nope, nope."
"'Christians only.'"
"Pretty much. I heard the Jews might have cut a separate deal but don't quote me."
"Wow."
"Yeah."
"Nice for the Christians."
"Yeah. It is."
"Kinda sucks for everybody else."
"Yeah. It does, I guess. But what are ya gonna do. We don't make the rules, right?"
"Somebody should complain."
"To who?"
"Well, I mean, God I guess. Or JC."
"Yeah, I don't know how much traction that will get, to be honest with you. It's kind of too late for all that. Capital T, capital L."
"Because of the whole Armageddon thing."
"Pretty much."
"Bummer."
"For some, yeah."
"So what, they all burn in the lake?"
"Yeah. That's what the other line's for."
"What other line?"
"See that over there, it looks like a mountain range? By the horizon."
"Yeah."
"That's the line for the lake."
"Holy CRAP!"
"Yeah."
"It's huge!"
"I heard like 20 billion or something. Could be a rumor."
"That's- that's like everybody in the world, EVER."
"Everybody ELSE, yeah."
"No. No, that's. That's effed up, man. Come on."
"You think so?"
"Are you kidding? You're kidding, right?"
"Not at all.'
"But, come ON, that's insane over there. All those people, they're gonna burn for eternity in a big lava pit?"
"Pretty much."
"DUDE!"
"Hey, it's not like they didn't have ample warning. It was in all the papers for like, you know, EVER."
"Yeah, but I mean, Buddhism. Who hates Buddhists?"
"Nobody I know."
"There's a lot to be said for Buddhism, right?"
"Sure. No question. Great people. Great ideas."
"My Dad was a Buddhist."
"Hey, great. That must have been cool for him."
"But he's probably in that other line then, huh?"
"Did he convert before he died?"
"Nope."
"Probably, yeah."
"Mom was an Episcopalian."
"HEY! Great! Awesome for her."
"Looks like it."
"What about you? You a Buddhist or what?"
"Or What, I guess. I could never put my feet down on the whole Universe Run By Magic Santa Claus thing."
"Irreverent."
"What can I say."
"Bet you regret that now."
"I'm starting to."
"Where are you going?"
"Other line, right? Might as well get to it."
"Wow. You're taking this REALLY well."
"Hey, you dance with who brung ya, right?"
"I suppose so."
"Besides. I think I see Mark Twain and George Carlin over there."
"I wouldn't doubt it. 'specially Carlin. That guy had a real Jones near the end."
"Funny though."
"Yeah. Funny."
"Twain too. And I think that might be Oscar Wilde next to them."
"Plus you get to see your Dad again. For a while anyway."
"A long while. Look at that line."
"Okay, then."
"Yeah."
"So, uh, "good luck?""
"What with the burning for all eternity? Thanks. I bet I get the hang of it pretty quick."
"Yeah. Doesn't look complex."
"And y'know, have fun in heaven."
"Oh, I plan to. There's a rock candy mountain with my name on it. Special order."
"They let you do that?"
"Oh, yeah. But you had to sweat for it in Life, y'know. It's that whole delayed gratification thing.
"Never was much good at that either."
"..... Well."
"So, seeya."
" I guess."
"But, I mean, not really."
"No. Not really."
co*pyright ©2007 g*eoffrey* t*horne

[LewisH]

had some interesting thoughts on this subject in his Incarnations of Immortality series especially Riding a Pale Horse.

[K-DoG7p7]

I'm just saying

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h209/7p7/1190569271164.gif
http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h209/7p7/1190575959656.png

[TCJohnson]

Dear Gail,

Uh - looks like an interesting question, but could you explain it a bit more? Or inform us (meaning me, since I may be the only one missing this) of the context of the question? Thanks,

Shaun


This is in response to the other thread, Will Jews be allowed in Heaven.

Gail's an athiest.

[Michael P]

I'm just saying

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h209/7p7/1190569271164.gif

This is bullshit. There was plenty of scientific advancement during that period. It's just most of it was going on outside of Europe.

[Christopher Cross Is God]

This is bullshit. There was plenty of scientific advancement during that period. It's just most of it was going on outside of Europe.

It also lacks any indication of scientific advancement by the Persians and other older civilizations.

During the Dark Ages, was there any scientific advancement in the "Christian World"? I'm pretty sure that was the period of time where the Chinese and Arabs/Middle Easterners were making breakthroughs, but I could be wrong.

[Agent Helix]

The concept of the "dark ages" is largely a myth.

[Buzz Dixon]

This is bullshit. There was plenty of scientific advancement during that period. It's just most of it was going on outside of Europe.It was going on in Europe as well, just outside of the Mediterranean. The center of European civilization moved up the Italian pennisula to first France then wound up in the Netherlands (Germany was never a major political force until the late 19th century though their institutions of higher learner were among the best on the sub-continent). Population and trade actually grew during the so-called "dark ages" (which was a misnomer applied to the period of Italian decline by Gibbons and other classicists who longed for the glory days of the Roman Empire). No serious historian since the 1950s has taught there ever was a "dark age" re European civilization.

[Buzz Dixon]

It's a serious question!Are you a Buddhist? Because no, Christians will not obtain nirvana even if they become enlightened. Salvation and enlightenment are not one and the same. Enlightenment is cool, but it's no substitute for salvation in the Christian view of things.

[DaveRothe]

It's a serious question!

Well just like lunch time at school I'll trade ya half of my somethingness for half of your nothingness and then no one is left with nothing.:wink:

[K-DoG7p7]

The concept of the "dark ages" is largely a myth.

But you still cant deny the fact that scientist of the era where burned for being warlocks and stuff ..

"One thousand" years of ignorance in Europe.. that did take its tole on out scientific evolution..

Then again.. we could have gotten the Steam engine way back in Roman times :P

[jesse_custer]

I can objectively say Christians have done nothing right and that makes me a badass.

[Agent Helix]

Dude you're so hardcore.

[jesse_custer]

My hardcoreness makes others hard, too.

[Agent Helix]

Oh man DON'T I KNOW IT!

[Michael P]

But you still cant deny the fact that scientist of the era where burned for being warlocks and stuff ..

Of course I can. Because it's not a fact.

[Sarah Beach]

But you still cant deny the fact that scientist of the era where burned for being warlocks and stuff ..

"One thousand" years of ignorance in Europe.. that did take its tole on out scientific evolution..

Then again.. we could have gotten the Steam engine way back in Roman times :P

Yes I can deny. Please, some documented proof?

"One thousand" years of ignorance in Europe is a big stupid display of your own ignorance (says the medievalist, me). If anything, it was Christians who preserved and spread classical knowledge. The barbarian invasions were not the least interested in preserving knowledge, so the fact that you have any literature from the classical period - be it drama, poetry, mathematics or philosopy, is due to the preservation of works in monasteries. And especially the Irish ones. And it was the monks who did the work of reeducating Europe. It was religious foundations that began the great Universities in Europe.

Yeah, Christians were such a big drag on knowledge. Huh.

[DavidAllred]

Even though I hated the movie, I loved this scene in The Day After Tomorrow

Elsa: What've you got there?

Jeremy: The Guttenburg Bible ... it was in the Rare Books Room.

Elsa: Think God's gonna' save you?

Jeremy: No ... I don't believe in God.

Elsa: You're holding on to that bible pretty tight.

Jeremy: I'm protecting it.

[Pause as Elsa glances at J.D. throwing books on the fire]

Jeremy: This Bible ... is the first book ever printed. It represents ... the dawn of the Age of Reason. As far as I'm concerned, the written word is mankind's greatest achievement.

[Elsa gives a light snort.]

Jeremy: You can laugh ... but if Western Civilization is finished ... I'm gonna' save at least one little piece of it.

[Dazzler]

It also lacks any indication of scientific advancement by the Persians and other older civilizations.

During the Dark Ages, was there any scientific advancement in the "Christian World"? I'm pretty sure that was the period of time where the Chinese and Arabs/Middle Easterners were making breakthroughs, but I could be wrong.

The Renaissance doesn't count for beans then? It may not be the Dark Ages, but it certainly was the start of modern Western thinking AND it was pretty much funded by the Christian Church.

Christianity and ignorance haven't always gone hand in hand. Unfortunately, it's a whole lot of people on both sides of the issue trying their damndest to make sure they do.

--Dazz

[Buzz Dixon]

But you still cant deny the fact that scientist of the era where burned for being warlocks and stuff ..

"One thousand" years of ignorance in Europe.. that did take its tole on out scientific evolution..

Then again.. we could have gotten the Steam engine way back in Roman times :PScientists were never burned at the stake. Galileo had to recant due to local political pressure put on him by the overbearing wife of a local politician, but Copernicus himself was a monk who's research was funded and approved by the Catholic church.

Knowledge and prosperity increased in Europe steadily from the 800s to the present, with time outs for occasional plagues and World Wars. Even then, once the plague/war itself passed, it was invariably followed by a boom in science and economics.

The Greeks did have steam power, they used it to "fly" toy birds (the toys were actually suspended on strings but steam pressure propelled them in circles), open temple doors, etc. Human (read slave) and animal power was far cheaper and more plentiful. The Scots developed steam engines to pump water out of mines; it was too crowded to have both miners and a bucket brigade working in the shafts together. James Watt refined the earlier designs and figured out you could hook the pistons up to gears and do all kinda stuff.

[stealthwise]

Even though I hated the movie, I loved this scene in The Day After Tomorrow

Elsa: What've you got there?

Jeremy: The Guttenburg Bible ... it was in the Rare Books Room.

Elsa: Think God's gonna' save you?

Jeremy: No ... I don't believe in God.

Elsa: You're holding on to that bible pretty tight.

Jeremy: I'm protecting it.

[Pause as Elsa glances at J.D. throwing books on the fire]

Jeremy: This Bible ... is the first book ever printed. It represents ... the dawn of the Age of Reason. As far as I'm concerned, the written word is mankind's greatest achievement.

[Elsa gives a light snort.]

Jeremy: You can laugh ... but if Western Civilization is finished ... I'm gonna' save at least one little piece of it.

Are you... quoting that movie to mock its message or to highlight what it says? Because that was one shitty fucking movie.

[DavidAllred]

Are you... quoting that movie to mock its message or to highlight what it says? Because that was one shitty fucking movie.

I hated the movie, but I loved that scene in the move.

[Gail Simone]

Guys, this was a joke thread.

I'm enjoying the discussion, but no one should take the thread title seriously. While I don't believe there's an afterlife of any kind (and don't find one necessary, either), the thread itself was just a parody of the "will Jews be allowed into heaven" thread.

Carry on!

[stealthwise]

I hated the movie, but I loved that scene in the move.

Fair enough.

The lines aren't bad, but I remember the scene standing out in a negative way. Trying to insert a "profound" moment in an empty disaster film.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

But you still cant deny the fact that scientist of the era where burned for being warlocks and stuff ..

"One thousand" years of ignorance in Europe.. that did take its tole on out scientific evolution..

Then again.. we could have gotten the Steam engine way back in Roman times :P

Ummm...Roger Bacon--alone? I'm on your side with this--but just because not much (besides gunpowder) was followed through on a mass production level (and trhat they could have benefited greatly from all of those books the Roman Church burnt or still have locked up), it doesn't mean inventiveness wasn't happening...

As far as the rest of this thread goes--bah! You go to nothingness, or you go to where Yaldebaoth, The Hairy Thunderer has made a phony heaven and hell for Christians, You advance to a higher plane, and/or (most likely) you come back. You go where you think you'll go. Alan Moore said it--and he's a magician--so it must be true! :biggrin:

I've been out of this body too much to think it's ME.

[Paul McEnery]

Are you a Buddhist? Because no, Christians will not obtain nirvana even if they become enlightened. Salvation and enlightenment are not one and the same. Enlightenment is cool, but it's no substitute for salvation in the Christian view of things.

One might reasonably suggest that salvation is just a mistranslation of enlightment.

One might also note in passing that life after death is an excellent device if you intend to send idealistic young people to an early grave in order to establish your religion as a force to be reckoned with.

[jesse_custer]

If you look at da Vinci's anatomy drawings too long, serious brainwashing occurs.

[darkhanamaru]

One might reasonably suggest that salvation is just a mistranslation of enlightment.

One might also note in passing that life after death is an excellent device if you intend to send idealistic young people to an early grave in order to establish your religion as a force to be reckoned with.

Yes, every religion needs their cobain ;)

[Hybrid2]

They'll have their own special nothingness off to the right. The Catholics will be especially confused, because they thought the Pope said Limbo didn't exist anymore.

They closed it down? O_o

[berk]

Well, there's "allowed" and there's "choose". Would one choose Nothingness over Somethingness?

:biggrin:Can't have one without the other.

[Erik Burnham]

Can't have one without the other.

Can't have one without the absence of the other, actually. (;

[berk]

Can't have one without the absence of the other, actually. (;Exactly!

10chrs

[Sarah Beach]

But if you "have" a Nothingness, wouldn't that be a Somethingness, since you "have" it and you have a name for it?


:evilsmile:

(I'm abusing you all with this line of thought in retaliation for my long ago philosophy professor who tortured us Intro to Philosophy students with his Socratic method.)

[Paul McEnery]

But if you "have" a Nothingness, wouldn't that be a Somethingness, since you "have" it and you have a name for it?


:evilsmile:

(I'm abusing you all with this line of thought in retaliation for my long ago philosophy professor who tortured us Intro to Philosophy students with his Socratic method.)

The Parmenidean Fallacy!

Oh how I curse the dealer who sold that man the mushrooms.

[kitty_tc_69]

BINARY- by Me

[snip]

copyright ©2007 geoffrey thorne

Is this supposed to be pro-christian, or anti? I honestly can't tell. It reads like a lot of "get in line or else" christian propaganda, but to be honest that whole message has always pissed me off. Rather than inspire me to want to be christian, or more so, it makes me angry at the sheer brutal injustice of it all. Why would I want any reward from a cosmic tyrant who uses torture against anyone who won't serve him? And why would I view anyone who does as anything but quisling sycophants ready to betray humanity to this dictatorial entity for their own gain?

If a human regime did the kind of things you describe in this piece, it would be condemned as the next Nazi Germany. Why is there a double standard when a deity does it?

[stealthwise]

But if you "have" a Nothingness, wouldn't that be a Somethingness, since you "have" it and you have a name for it?


:evilsmile:

(I'm abusing you all with this line of thought in retaliation for my long ago philosophy professor who tortured us Intro to Philosophy students with his Socratic method.)

No, you only "have" it now, as an abstract concept. Along this line of reasoning, that possession of said concept dissipates once the individual does.

It's the same idea as "possessing" a sense of history. Anything that happened prior to your existence could not have belonged to you in any sense, except for in the here and now, at the time you acquired the knowledge of it and hold onto it until the moment of your demise.

[kitty_tc_69]

Guys, this was a joke thread.

I'm enjoying the discussion, but no one should take the thread title seriously. While I don't believe there's an afterlife of any kind (and don't find one necessary, either), the thread itself was just a parody of the "will Jews be allowed into heaven" thread.

Carry on!

You'll like it if the visions I've gotten are correct. From what I can tell (and this is from dream information, take it with as much salt as you like, I can't guarantee anything even my own gut feeling on which of my dreams are informative and which are just dreams... that said I'm pretty confident in this one) the afterlife is very simple:

You get to go home.

That place in your childhood inner mind where everything feels right and the world makes sense and you belong there, that's where you go. You know the phrase "you can't go home again", indicating that time steals away that warm place you knew because the world is different and even if you go to the right physical place you can't go to the right temporal one? Forget it. You do go back home. And it's the warmest, safest, most comfortable and most right feeling thing you can imagine. There aren't worries, or bills to pay, or time at all. And near as I can tell, there aren't rules for getting there. You just go there, it's like a retirement from life itself. From the glimpses of it I got, there didn't seem to be anyone else there, but at the same time there was a sense of them being near, as if they just weren't home yet but you'd see them soon. And maybe you can, and I just didn't see that part. There was a warm fuzzyness to the whole thing, like that feeling of warm blanket comfort you get when you sleep in on a summer morning and you have nothing in the world to worry about so you might as well just stay in bed and relax for a while. The details weren't clear, and perhaps they weren't present nor important. What was important was that all-encompassing sense of relaxing, comforting sense of rightness, not as in righteousness or moral correctitude, but "this fits, it works, I belong". It was more beautiful than any concept of heaven I've ever heard, because it's yours and yours alone. It's not someone else's idea of perfection, it's your perfect happy place. And no one else does or ever could understand it the way you do. You know the place I am talking about, you're probably imagining it reading this, but it's totally different than mine. And that's just how it should be.

Of course I have no way of knowing if I'm right. And I'm not trying to convince you that I am. It just amazed me when I learned of it, and I thought I'd share it with you. Maybe you can put it in your "wouldn't that be nice" file. And maybe you can hope I'm right. Because wherever the idea came from (and I just really really feel it came from beyond me) it's a nice one, I think.

[DavidAllred]

No, you only "have" it now, as an abstract concept. Along this line of reasoning, that possession of said concept dissipates once the individual does.

It's the same idea as "possessing" a sense of history. Anything that happened prior to your existence could not have belonged to you in any sense, except for in the here and now, at the time you acquired the knowledge of it and hold onto it until the moment of your demise.

And if that's all it is, are we any worse for wear?

[RachelEvil]

You'll like it if the visions I've gotten are correct. From what I can tell (and this is from dream information, take it with as much salt as you like, I can't guarantee anything even my own gut feeling on which of my dreams are informative and which are just dreams... that said I'm pretty confident in this one) the afterlife is very simple:

You get to go home.

That place in your childhood inner mind where everything feels right and the world makes sense and you belong there, that's where you go.

And if you never had such a thing in the first place?

[Linkara]

Guys, this was a joke thread.

I'm enjoying the discussion, but no one should take the thread title seriously. While I don't believe there's an afterlife of any kind (and don't find one necessary, either), the thread itself was just a parody of the "will Jews be allowed into heaven" thread.

Carry on!

Yes, but this is also one of those times where I'm inundated by questions for you, Gail! I tried to bring it up in City of Heroes, but considering our wackiness there (prompted by excellent strategery on your part), it's not really the best place to be having a theological conversation.

The big thing that got me was the fact that you're an atheist. That's of course fine, but this surprised me when I remembered the fact that you wanted Cass to join the Birds (at least, that's what I remember) a while ago and to make her a Christian. Now, I of course know atheists who have no problem with other people having religion and etc., but there's always that nagging stereotype in the back of my mind of atheists who condemn religion in every single form and make all their characters atheists or at least like to disprove religious beliefs and the like. Furthermore, I tie this in to the discover that JMS was also an atheist, which was a pretty big shock to me considering all the religion and spirituality he put into Babylon 5. Now he's explained that he understands that religion will continue for hundreds of years and he respects people who are religious, so I was wondering if it was one of those cases or if you think it would've just made for a better story or if-

*Head asplodes from the ramblings.*

[Paul McEnery]

It's suddenly occurred to me that a "nothingness" is the same as a void, and now the whole thing seems euphemistic of something very creepy (http://www.stewarthomesociety.org/neoism/necro.htm).

[kitty_tc_69]

And if you never had such a thing in the first place?

Then you have my honest empathy, and beyond that I don't have answers for you. What I do have, like I said, is based on dreams that I have come to believe are more than dreams. It's a totally subjective thing I can't prove to anyone and I wouldn't even try. I could tell you I have had precognitive dreams in the past, but I couldn't expect you to take my word for it --it sounds ridiculous, I know, and I wouldn't believe it myself if I hadn't experienced it. If it were a steady or reliable thing, believe me I'd be better off than I am by far. All I have are vague glimpses and occasional insights that I usually don't recognize as meaningful until they come to pass and I remember belatedly "hey, I dreamed this once". I don't know how it works, or why, and it's not strong enough to even be useful, really. it just happens, and not very often at that.

As I said, I almost never know the difference between an important dream and just a regular one until the dream comes to pass, and considering that the subject of this one is the afterlife I won't know if I'm right anytime soon. There was just a feeling to this one, though, a gut feeling that there's something to it. It doesn't hurt that it's been a recurring one, and the precognitive dreams I have had tend to recur. But that's all it is, a dream and a feeling it's more. An intuition. I can no more prove it than I can precog myself up some winning lottery numbers.

All I can say for sure is it feels real to me. And I hope it's true because it was wonderful, and makes me fear death less to think that might be where I end up. Beyond that, I don't have any answers. I never claimed to be a prophet.

[RachelEvil]

Then you have my honest empathy, and beyond that I don't have answers for you. What I do have, like I said, is based on dreams that I have come to believe are more than dreams. It's a totally subjective thing I can't prove to anyone and I wouldn't even try. I could tell you I have had precognitive dreams in the past, but I couldn't expect you to take my word for it --it sounds ridiculous, I know, and I wouldn't believe it myself if I hadn't experienced it. If it were a steady or reliable thing, believe me I'd be better off than I am by far. All I have are vague glimpses and occasional insights that I usually don't recognize as meaningful until they come to pass and I remember belatedly "hey, I dreamed this once". I don't know how it works, or why, and it's not strong enough to even be useful, really. it just happens, and not very often at that.

As I said, I almost never know the difference between an important dream and just a regular one until the dream comes to pass, and considering that the subject of this one is the afterlife I won't know if I'm right anytime soon. There was just a feeling to this one, though, a gut feeling that there's something to it. It doesn't hurt that it's been a recurring one, and the precognitive dreams I have had tend to recur. But that's all it is, a dream and a feeling it's more. An intuition. I can no more prove it than I can precog myself up some winning lottery numbers.

All I can say for sure is it feels real to me. And I hope it's true because it was wonderful, and makes me fear death less to think that might be where I end up. Beyond that, I don't have any answers. I never claimed to be a prophet.

Fair enough. And you'd be surprised what I'm willing to consider as possible. To quote (or mis-quote, as it's been a while since I read Sandman) Rose Walker: "I've had a weird shit sort of life."

I was really just kind of curious. The concept you described previously is one that I can't say I recall any experience with. So it kind of seemed like an odd thing. But, since I've had clinical depression for as long as I can remember, I'm willing to accept that I may be the odd one out in this instance.

[kitty_tc_69]

Fair enough. And you'd be surprised what I'm willing to consider as possible. To quote (or mis-quote, as it's been a while since I read Sandman) Rose Walker: "I've had a weird shit sort of life."

I was really just kind of curious. The concept you described previously is one that I can't say I recall any experience with. So it kind of seemed like an odd thing. But, since I've had clinical depression for as long as I can remember, I'm willing to accept that I may be the odd one out in this instance.

I'm with you on the depression thing. And that's kinda interesting that you bring it up, I'm not saying my childhood was perfect or great or even all that happy. The place that was in the dream wasn't anywhere as blissful or perfect in real life, not by a long shot. But I grew up there. And it was a time period that has a certain magic to it in my memory.

It goes along with a personal theory of mine that there's a certain point in a person's development, most especially their childhood, that they form their attachments and likes and interests and stuff. It's when everything you liked was in it's prime and you learned to love it. It's where nostalgia comes from, the attachments formed in that stage of life. A time period that feels "right" to you and makes you feel all warm and fuzzy when you're reminded of it. It's why people collect things from a certain period. It's not universal, of course, but it's something most people have.

That's where I was in those dreams. I was in my nostalgia place. I was home not just physically, but temporally, in a time period before they started changing things on me, you know? A time and place that felt right. The place my inner child lives, regardless of what my actual childhood was like. It was a place without the realities of my childhood, just the familiar trappings that made it a nesting place for my soul.

I think we truly adapt to the world but once, and from then on we all experience that old feeling of "they changed it now it sucks" to one degree or another. The place I went to was the one before they changed anything, when it was all still the way I remember it.

And while I don't want to sound morbid, I like life just fine, but if that's what death brings then it doesn't seem that bad.

[Red Jack]

Is this supposed to be pro-christian, or anti? I honestly can't tell.

Neither. It's just a story meant to provoke discussion.

However, if we accept the Judeo/Christian paradigm, the universe and everything in it is the Creation and Property of God. he can do anything to it or with it or its inhabitants that He pleases and it will be considered Good.

Everything God does is Good. Everything that moves against what God does is Evil.

Binary.

[kitty_tc_69]

Neither. It's just a story meant to provoke discussion.

However, if we accept the Judeo/Christian paradigm, the universe and everything in it is the Creation and Property of God. he can do anything to it or with it or its inhabitants that He pleases and it will be considered Good.

Everything God does is Good. Everything that moves against what God does is Evil.

Binary.

That very issue is one of the prime reasons I do not accept the judeochristian paradigm, and was a major factor in why I stopped. I could not then, and can not now, reconcile that with my own moral compass. It outrages me, it's barbaric and brutal and full of hate and cruelty and I cannot conscience it. It's evil, and repugnant to every value I hold dear.

Sentience, life and experience and emotion and free will, those things can never be morally owned. I don't care who you are, you can't own people. It's wrong. You can't make them suffer or snuff them out or rob them of their agency. You just can't. Morality doesn't give power a free pass, no one is above it. Power can give you the ability to do something, but it can not make it right. If this god snuffs out life, he is a murderer. If he causes suffering and utilizes torture, he is a sadist. If he exerts totalitarian power over people's lives and removes their freedoms, then he is a tyrant. His status does not absolve his actions.

If it's wrong when a human does it, it's wrong when a god does it. In fact more so, I think, because one would expect a god to know better.

[Dazzler]

That very issue is one of the prime reasons I do not accept the judeochristian paradigm, and was a major factor in why I stopped. I could not then, and can not now, reconcile that with my own moral compass. It outrages me, it's barbaric and brutal and full of hate and cruelty and I cannot conscience it. It's evil, and repugnant to every value I hold dear.

Sentience, life and experience and emotion and free will, those things can never be morally owned. I don't care who you are, you can't own people. It's wrong. You can't make them suffer or snuff them out or rob them of their agency. You just can't. Morality doesn't give power a free pass, no one is above it. Power can give you the ability to do something, but it can not make it right. If this god snuffs out life, he is a murderer. If he causes suffering and utilizes torture, he is a sadist. If he exerts totalitarian power over people's lives and removes their freedoms, then he is a tyrant. His status does not absolve his actions.

If it's wrong when a human does it, it's wrong when a god does it. In fact more so, I think, because one would expect a god to know better.

But, under any religion with any sort of God, even nature worship, the god or non-god in question gives AND takes life.

It's nature, pure and simple. Everything dies, and not always happily.

--Dazz

[kitty_tc_69]

But, under any religion with any sort of God, even nature worship, the god or non-god in question gives AND takes life.

It's nature, pure and simple. Everything dies, and not always happily.

--Dazz

That's not the issue. Death as a necessary and inevitable thing that comes to all is not the same as a being that kills people for disagreeing with him or not capitulating to his every demand. Hell, in most forms of classical paganism, gods themselves can die so the mere existence of death itself is not something that can be morally laid at their feet.

In fact, it could be argued that religion itself largely exists as a mitigating factor on death, a way to a second chance at existence. An escape clause, if you will. It's no coincidence that virtually every religion ever has an afterlife concept of some kind, humans need the reassurance.

[Dazzler]

That's not the issue. Death as a necessary and inevitable thing that comes to all is not the same as a being that kills people for disagreeing with him or not capitulating to his every demand.
Then shouldn't you be dead now? :tongue:

I may say it snarky, but truthfully, thats a very precise way of looking at the concept of a Judeo-Christian God that does a disservice to the religion.

I think it's important to maintain a separation between the religion and the followers of the religion. Aren't there some pagans out there who really get your goat because they clearly don't have any idea what they're doing beyond playing dress-up?

Well, it's the same for Christians.

--Dazz

[kitty_tc_69]

Then shouldn't you be dead now? :tongue:

I may say it snarky, but truthfully, thats a very precise way of looking at the concept of a Judeo-Christian God that does a disservice to the religion.

I think it's important to maintain a separation between the religion and the followers of the religion. Aren't there some pagans out there who really get your goat because they clearly don't have any idea what they're doing beyond playing dress-up?

Well, it's the same for Christians.

--Dazz

I didn't come to that conclusion from the outside looking in. It's the way I was taught growing up christian, and being unable to agree with it was one of the major factors in my leaving the christian faith. It certainly wasn't an easy decision to come to, the guilt and anguish at finding myself at odds with the faith I had grown up in was deep and intense. I wasn't raised pagan, nor did I convert to paganism directly from christianity. I went through a long phase where I rejected religion entirely, and was a rather militant atheist. I eventually softened as i got older and settled into a state of agnosticism that I stayed in for quite a while. I was exposed to paganism through a relationship, which extended to association with friends of hers, and I was exposed to it gradually. And by gradually I should probably say "grudgingly", because I was more than a little resistant to the whole idea for a good while. Slowly, just by being around it and by the sensitive and understanding way my objections were handled, I softened to it and began to learn more. I became first neutral to it, and then more comfortable with it. Eventually, I became interested. Even after I finally decided to join the faith, it wasn't an overnight thing. It took a long time before I felt like I belonged, and even today I don't feel like I'm that good a pagan compared to a lot of the more deeply faithful and knowledgable people I know. But I do the best I can with it.

My point is, the christian doctrine Red Jack described and I condemned does exist, I should know I was taught it when I was a christian. Neither of us made it up, it exists. Not every branch of christianity subscribes to it or emphasizes it, but enough do to make it a legitimate point of discussion. It's not a stereotype made up to disparage christianity, it's an actual christian doctrine taught in many churches and branches of the faith.

[kitty_tc_69]

Then shouldn't you be dead now? :tongue:

--Dazz

Oh, and the answer to your question in the branch of christianity I grew up in is "soon, very soon". I was taught to expect Armageddon in my lifetime, and with it the direct slaughter by the angelic army of all non-christians. Only the faithful would live, and not even all christians, only the right kind of christians. Everyone else would be put to the holy sword. Given my falling out from the faith, that puts me on the hit list.

So according to that doctrine I'm as good as dead already, god just hasn't gotten around to killing me yet.

[the4thpip]

The concept of the "dark ages" is largely a myth.

I'm told there was actually lavender lighting.

[Buzz Dixon]

re; Going home after you die.
And if you never had such a thing in the first place?Then you're stuck on third.

[Buzz Dixon]

That very issue is one of the prime reasons I do not accept the judeochristian paradigm, and was a major factor in why I stopped. I could not then, and can not now, reconcile that with my own moral compass. It outrages me, it's barbaric and brutal and full of hate and cruelty and I cannot conscience it. It's evil, and repugnant to every value I hold dear.

Sentience, life and experience and emotion and free will, those things can never be morally owned.That's why God gives us the final choice: Worship our Self, or worship Him. If we prefer to be our own moral compass, our own god, as it were, then He will let us have an eternity of that after we die.

If, on the other hand, we wish to do what is right even though we know we a fallible and/or may be misunderstanding exactly what is expected of us, He is quick to forgive and accept.

[MacQuarrie]

But you still cant deny the fact that scientist of the era where burned for being warlocks and stuff ..
Actually most of them were hanged.

"One thousand" years of ignorance in Europe.. that did take its tole on out scientific evolution..

Then again.. we could have gotten the Steam engine way back in Roman times :P
The so-called "Christian" Dark Ages had a great deal more to do with political abuse. The church became a pawn of the government (perils of legitimacy) and was used as an agent of fear and repression. None of the doctrines promulgated by the church and its royal overlords at that time are actually based on Christian teachings.

[Paul McEnery]

That's why God gives us the final choice: Worship our Self, or worship Him. If we prefer to be our own moral compass, our own god, as it were, then He will let us have an eternity of that after we die.

If, on the other hand, we wish to do what is right even though we know we a fallible and/or may be misunderstanding exactly what is expected of us, He is quick to forgive and accept.

Hmm. The choice is living for eternity by my own ethical lights, or be force to act against them by a dictatorial will.

Which one was supposed to be Hell again?

[MacQuarrie]

Hmm. The choice is living for eternity by my own ethical lights, or be force to act against them by a dictatorial will.

Which one was supposed to be Hell again?

Or maybe be shown where your own ethical lights were in error, and be given the opportunity to start over with more information? "For now we know in part, but then we shall know completely."

You have had the experience of discovering you were wrong about something and changing your mind, right?

[kitty_tc_69]

That's why God gives us the final choice: Worship our Self, or worship Him. If we prefer to be our own moral compass, our own god, as it were, then He will let us have an eternity of that after we die.

If, on the other hand, we wish to do what is right even though we know we a fallible and/or may be misunderstanding exactly what is expected of us, He is quick to forgive and accept.

If you accept the frame of "right = whatever god says or does no matter what", then I suppose it is a question of right or wrong. I reject that framework, and judge actions by the same standards no matter who does them.

"Follow me or be tortured", "do as I say or die", those are the edicts of a tyrant no matter who issues them.

For a good encapsulation of this argument, check out the classic Trek episode "Who Mourns for Adonais?". All I have to say is if your god ever met James T Kirk, he'd be eating some photon torpedoes right quicklike. And I'd be right there with all phasers firing.

[Buzz Dixon]

Hmm. The choice is living for eternity by my own ethical lights, or be force to act against them by a dictatorial will.

Which one was supposed to be Hell again?C.S. Lewis said something to the effect if he had to spend a million years living with the consequences of his own behaviors, that would indeed be hell.

You'll get an eternity all on your own. You want a world to run just the way you think a world should be run, you go right ahead and create one for yourself.














(...uh, you do have the ability to create time, space, energy, and matter all on your own, don't you? 'Cuz otherwise it's gonna be a long, lonely existence...)

[Agent Helix]

Wow.

God sounds sort of like a petulant asshole.

[darkhanamaru]

Or maybe be shown where your own ethical lights were in error, and be given the opportunity to start over with more information? "For now we know in part, but then we shall know completely."

You have had the experience of discovering you were wrong about something and changing your mind, right?

Mormons have an interesting conception of this - or at least i was as i was told by my former Mormon boss. They believe that in the afterlife you still get to improve on yourself and correct your mistakes. Everyone reaches salvation eventually but some take longer than others depending on how they did. Mormons feel they will actually judged more harshly for they had the word of Mormon revealed to them in this life and have a head start on everyone else. And of course your family is with you through this whole thing.

I thought this was an interesting twist on the whole purgatory, reincarnation, bardo thing. Maybe there is a Mormon on the board who can add or correct this.

My own beliefs do not parallel these. I am much more nihilist and utilitarian and leaning toward atheism as I get older.

[Buzz Dixon]

If you accept the frame of "right = whatever god says or does no matter what", then I suppose it is a question of right or wrong. I reject that framework, and judge actions by the same standards no matter who does them.

"Follow me or be tortured", "do as I say or die", those are the edicts of a tyrant no matter who issues them.

For a good encapsulation of this argument, check out the classic Trek episode "Who Mourns for Adonais?". All I have to say is if your god ever met James T Kirk, he'd be eating some photon torpedoes right quicklike. And I'd be right there with all phasers firing.No, it's right because following it results in everybody living peacefully with one another, no irreconcilable problems, eternal life, eternal joy. It's right because it properly focuses our attention away from what we want and more properly onto what is best for everyone.

God has no desire to see anyone suffer torments in eternity. That's why He sent Christ, to save the world, not to condemn it.

We are, in fact, already condemned. God's sticking a pardon through the bars of our prison, all we've got to do is accept it and the door swings open.

[Buzz Dixon]

Wow.

God sounds sort of like a petulant asshole.No, it's just that after a lifetime (ours) of trying to get us to understand what we need to do, He finally says, "Fine, as you wish. Spend eternity the way you want it."

[kitty_tc_69]

No, it's right because following it results in everybody living peacefully with one another, no irreconcilable problems, eternal life, eternal joy. It's right because it properly focuses our attention away from what we want and more properly onto what is best for everyone.

Sounds familiar... last time I heard that particular argument, it went as follows:

"WE ARE THE BORG. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOU WILL BE ASSIMILATED."

My response remains the same. Lock phasers on target.

[MacQuarrie]

"Follow me or be tortured", "do as I say or die", those are the edicts of a tyrant no matter who issues them.

What about "come with me if you want to live", as said by many action heroes?

[Agent Helix]

Usually it isn't followed by getting shot in the face by the action hero if they refuse.

[kitty_tc_69]

No, it's just that after a lifetime (ours) of trying to get us to understand what we need to do, He finally says, "Fine, as you wish. Spend eternity the way you want it."

Do you or do you not believe in hellfire and eternal torment? Because if so, "spend eternity the way you want it" is absolutely not what is being said. An ultimatum is not a choice. "Do as I say or I'll shoot you or torture you" is not giving anyone any options, it's giving them consequences if they don't submit.

My response to the ultimatum is as follows:

“Let come what will, I mean to bear it out, And either live with glorious victorie, Or die with fame renown'd for chivalrie: He is not worthy of the honey-comb, That shuns the hives because the bees have stings”

"It is better to die on your feet than live on your knees."

and last but not least...

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\m/:evilsmile:\m/

[Gumbo Maximillian]

No, it's right because following it results in everybody living peacefully with one another, no irreconcilable problems, eternal life, eternal joy. It's right because it properly focuses our attention away from what we want and more properly onto what is best for everyone.

God has no desire to see anyone suffer torments in eternity. That's why He sent Christ, to save the world, not to condemn it.

We are, in fact, already condemned. God's sticking a pardon through the bars of our prison, all we've got to do is accept it and the door swings open.


Of course we are condemed by the prison God made, by the legal system God set up.

He didn't send Christ to condemn us because he did it the moment he made all of humanity.

And seriously god's too limited in either power or omniscience to figure out how to appear in exactly the way needed to convert everyone to his way of thinking?

If God really cared about people not going to hell he would just go "okay, hell's closed, here's a popsicle on your way to heaven wherein you will attain enlightenment apon your previous sinful ways".

And lets be honest "Fine spend eternity burning and being tortured in a hellashish existence" is hardly how anyone truly wants and for those few who do I guess its their crazy idea of heaven.

Basically yes "Spend existence burning in hell for not doing as I say" does kind of translate to petulant bastard.

Also some people die really early and presumably they still get to go to hell, a life time can be real short compared to other people and lets be honest, we ain't no immortals out of highlander at the end of a day, a life time is always short.

And sure everybody is happy as long as they are all the same thing but anybody different in anyway then its "To hell with them", how dare they think differently than me those crazy bastards.

Which of course applies not only to different religions but ultimately to different sects of the same religion, some people are hardcore enough that it applies specifically to the church they go to.

[Buzz Dixon]

Usually it isn't followed by getting shot in the face by the action hero if they refuse.Since God does not punish, merely allow us to suffer the consequences of our own poor choices, your comment "does not compute."

[Buzz Dixon]

Sounds familiar... last time I heard that particular argument, it went as follows:



My response remains the same. Lock phasers on target.So in other words your theology pretty much boils down to "Gimme what I want! Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!"

[Paul McEnery]

Or maybe be shown where your own ethical lights were in error, and be given the opportunity to start over with more information? "For now we know in part, but then we shall know completely."

You have had the experience of discovering you were wrong about something and changing your mind, right?

I believe what I'm saying is that the Heaven/Hell paradigm is precisely the established church telling me that thinking for myself will turn out very badly for me.

Now me, I'd have thought that "God's Will" is discovered -- if not created -- in the act of working out one's own salvation.

[Buzz Dixon]

Do you or do you not believe in hellfire and eternal torment? To the same extent that a person in a burning house has the option of fleeing, calling for help, or sitting there in deep denial until consumed, yes. If you (rhetorical) opt not to avail yourself of God's salvation because you (mere mortal) think you know better than God (supreme Creator), you are only reaping what you are sowing; to paraphrase Bruce Springsteen, God doesn't have to punish you, He can just "stand back and let it all be."

[Paul McEnery]

No, it's right because following it results in everybody living peacefully with one another, no irreconcilable problems, eternal life, eternal joy. It's right because it properly focuses our attention away from what we want and more properly onto what is best for everyone..

So today, you're the socialist and I'm the conservative.

Fair enough, this amuses me.

Because what is best for me is not what is best for everyone, and what is best for everyone is not what is best for me. Life's just not like that. What is good for the tiger is that the antelope gets eaten; the antelope's not so convinced by this.

A world without irreconcilable problems is literally inconceivable, as any attempt to get down to cases swiftly demonstrates.

[Paul McEnery]

To the same extent that a person in a burning house has the option of fleeing, calling for help, or sitting there in deep denial until consumed, yes. If you (rhetorical) opt not to avail yourself of God's salvation because you (mere mortal) think you know better than God (supreme Creator), you are only reaping what you are sowing; to paraphrase Bruce Springsteen, God doesn't have to punish you, He can just "stand back and let it all be."

But again, living within the morality prescribed by the Church looks an awful lot to me like running into a burning building.

[Buzz Dixon]

Gumbo, Hell is separation from God. We separate ourselves when we are disobedient.

God grants most human beings free will (I'm excluding those born so severely brain damaged they have no free will or intellect; those get a free pass). Free will gives us the option of choosing obedience (which God assures us will result in life and joy, with no righteous desire left unfulfilled), or doing what we please.

If God denied free will, we would be nothing more than unthinking cogs in a machine. We would have no more individuality or moral sense than a wind-up alarm clock. Free will gives us the right to choose between right and wrong; unfortunately, to allow some of us to freely choose the good, God has to be willing to let all of us choose the bad. And in choosing the bad, we often commit acts that harm others and bring suffering into the world.

God doesn't want suffering, but he can't stop evil people from doing evil without robbing them of their free will. That's why it's up to us as humans to thwart evil instead of waiting for a miracle from God (when the miracle comes, it will be too late for everyone, and one of the questions those who waited for a miracle will have to answer is why they waited instead of doing something).

So far only one human being has lived a fully realized perfect life. Those who are willing to follow Him will find themselves being further refined in this world and the world to come into the perfection God intended for us in the beginning.

[Buzz Dixon]

So today, you're the socialist and I'm the conservative.

Fair enough, this amuses me.

Because what is best for me is not what is best for everyone, and what is best for everyone is not what is best for me. Life's just not like that. What is good for the tiger is that the antelope gets eaten; the antelope's not so convinced by this.

A world without irreconcilable problems is literally inconceivable, as any attempt to get down to cases swiftly demonstrates.Nope, we're still on the correct sides of the fence.

If there were enough righteous people in the world, there would be no government assistance of any sort; there would be charities enough to handle all those in genuine need.

If there were enough righteous people in the world, there would be very few cases of genuine need, because first and foremost everyone would do whatever was in their own power to be self-sufficient rather than rely on their neighbors for help.

If there were enough righteous people in the world, there would be enough sense of common courtesy in the public sphere not to worry about anyone being adversely affected by public actions, and enough shared knowledge of the private spheres that if anyone were engaging in practices that might be harmful to others it would be made known.

[Buzz Dixon]

But again, living within the morality prescribed by the Church looks an awful lot to me like running into a burning building.Oh, really? Tell me, which of the 10 Commandments diminishes your life?

[Paul McEnery]

Gumbo, Hell is separation from God. We separate ourselves when we are disobedient.

God grants most human beings free will (I'm excluding those born so severely brain damaged they have no free will or intellect; those get a free pass). Free will gives us the option of choosing obedience (which God assures us will result in life and joy, with no righteous desire left unfulfilled), or doing what we please.

If God denied free will, we would be nothing more than unthinking cogs in a machine. We would have no more individuality or moral sense than a wind-up alarm clock. Free will gives us the right to choose between right and wrong; unfortunately, to allow some of us to freely choose the good, God has to be willing to let all of us choose the bad. And in choosing the bad, we often commit acts that harm others and bring suffering into the world.

God doesn't want suffering, but he can't stop evil people from doing evil without robbing them of their free will. That's why it's up to us as humans to thwart evil instead of waiting for a miracle from God (when the miracle comes, it will be too late for everyone, and one of the questions those who waited for a miracle will have to answer is why they waited instead of doing something).

So far only one human being has lived a fully realized perfect life. Those who are willing to follow Him will find themselves being further refined in this world and the world to come into the perfection God intended for us in the beginning.

Well yes, that's rather what I'm taking issue with.

"Free will" that is the choice between obedience and damnation is no such thing. It's giving you enough rope to hang yourself with.

There is absolutely no good reason to regard God as the provider of rules that demand obedience; nor to regard the rules handed down to us by the established church as having anything at all to do with God.

In fact, I'd go further. I'd say that obedience is in itself damnation and a form of sin. We are each of us as God made us, as they say, and what is required of us is to live out our own imperatives as ethically as we can figure out how. Following the instructions of some numbskull with a clipboard does not do this.

For further elucidation, I recommend the parable of the talents.

[Sarah Beach]

In fact, I'd go further. I'd say that obedience is in itself damnation and a form of sin. We are each of us as God made us, as they say, and what is required of us is to live out our own imperatives as ethically as we can figure out how. Following the instructions of some numbskull with a clipboard does not do this.

For further elucidation, I recommend the parable of the talents.


"Obedience is itself damnation and a form of sin"??? Wow. Remind me to stay away from you when on the road! That's dangerous!

As for the rest.... in the parable of the talents, the "numbskull with a clipboard" is the servant who buried the talents in the backyard and did nothing. He made NO choices, and only exercised his free will to do exactly that.

[kitty_tc_69]

So in other words your theology pretty much boils down to "Gimme what I want! Gimme! Gimme! Gimme!"


No it boils down to "my life, my freedom, and if anyone tries to take it from me then there will be blood". It means you follow whatever rules your magical sky fairy hands down to you through his priests and intermediaries (hmm, speaking for god to the gullible who'll do anything you say, nice gig if you can get it!) and leave me out of it. Do you understand this? I reject your philosophy, your morality, and your god. I'm fine with you worshipping and living however you want to, but don't push it on me. I don't want it. I don't need it. You have religious freedom and so do I. You have free will and so do I. Use your freedom well. I certainly intend to.

[Paul McEnery]

Oh, really? Tell me, which of the 10 Commandments diminishes your life?

I don't believe we were discussing the 10 Commandments.

But since you ask:

1) I am the Lord your God; You shall have no other gods before me
I'm not having it. God is not a Lord. The one true God is immanent, not transcendental. Transcendental Gods are always backed up by authoritarian governments, and to hell with that. Also, my God -- like Jesus's God -- is not the God of Moses; so that kind of breaks the Commandment right from the gitgo. Nope, my God can beat up your God, that's all that is.

2) You shall not make for yourself an idol
So that crucifix is right out, then. And my Ganesh hanging. And my Buddha fridge magnet. And any other icon I use in my meditative practice.

3) You shall not make wrongful use of the name of your God
Heh.

4) Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy
Yeah, I'll be sure and go right home of a Friday night, and not at all go clubbing or watch Battlestar.

5) Honor your father and mother
My mother and father were such rubbish parents I had to go into therapy to start over. The first ten years of my adult life were a complete write-off thanks to them. So no.

6) You shall not murder
So far, I've mostly steered clear of any combat situations, military or civilian. But I'm not ruling it out if it comes down to it.

7) You shall not commit adultery
Given my druthers, I'd either be in an open relationship or a free love situation, because a closed relationship really doesn't work for me.

8) You shall not steal
Property is theft.

9) You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor
Hey, one I can go along with whole-heartedly!

10) You shall not covet your neighbor's house/wife/ass/whatever.
Well I'm sure as hell not satisfied with my own, and coveting their's is the most likely to get off my own ass. And come to think of it: property is theft!


Now we could reasonably argue that there's a lot more subtlety in practice and Jewish understanding than I'm giving these statements the credit for.

But so what: the dumb approach I'm using is the dumb approach the Church has always sponsored.

[Paul McEnery]

"Obedience is itself damnation and a form of sin"??? Wow. Remind me to stay away from you when on the road! That's dangerous!

You know what's dangerous on the road? People without the flexibility to break the rules when necessary; and people who don't understand why the rules are the way they are, and what the real-world principles are that they point to.

"As for the rest.... in the parable of the talents, the "numbskull with a clipboard" is the servant who buried the talents in the backyard and did nothing. He made NO choices, and only exercised his free will to do exactly that.

Nope. The person who does what the numbskull with the clipboard says.

[Red Jack]

Oh, really? Tell me, which of the 10 Commandments diminishes your life?

The ones telling me how to think followed by those that tell me what to do.

[Buzz Dixon]

Well yes, that's rather what I'm taking issue with.

"Free will" that is the choice between obedience and damnation is no such thing. It's giving you enough rope to hang yourself with.

There is absolutely no good reason to regard God as the provider of rules that demand obedience; nor to regard the rules handed down to us by the established church as having anything at all to do with God.

In fact, I'd go further. I'd say that obedience is in itself damnation and a form of sin. We are each of us as God made us, as they say, and what is required of us is to live out our own imperatives as ethically as we can figure out how. Following the instructions of some numbskull with a clipboard does not do this.

For further elucidation, I recommend the parable of the talents.You (rhetorical) have the free will to cheat someone is a business deal or not to cheat them.

1) A moral person would not cheat because she has been taught it is not right to cheat; an ethical person would not cheat because he in turn would not want to be cheated.

2) A sociopathic personality would not cheat a person only if she thought there was a chance to benefit even more by not cheating (for instance, a realization she might go to jail if caught); a psychopathic personality would cheat because he simply can not avoid cheating without someone else intervening.

Somewhere between paragraph #1 and paragraph #2 is where the vast majority of human beings fall. We've got good intentions -- really! -- but can easily persuade ourselves is not really immoral or unethical to cheat our neighbor.

In fact, if we work really hard at it, we can convince ourselves it's the morally/ethically correct thing to do!

God doesn't need to give us any more rope to hang ourselves with -- we're already done up like Japanese bondage hentai! What He's giving is grace and forgiveness for those who sincerely want to change for the better.

[Paul McEnery]

The ones telling me how to think followed by those that tell me what to do.

That's a lot pithier, I'll give you that.

Now for the 10 Suggestions!

1) The Immanent God is your True Will. Don't be knocked off course by peer pressure.
2) The manufactured desires of consumer capitalism or political demogogues - don't be knocked off course by them, either.
3) Don't let people slip ideology or false metaphysics by you in the name of "God"; God is not what they say She is.
4) Don't get caught up in the world, but take time out for recreation, meditation, or whichever way you choose to come back to your True Will.
5) Your parents may be idiots, your church and party may be liars, and your country may be a cesspit of nationalist cupidity, but it's what you belong to, and you owe it to yourself to contribute to its genuine health. Never forget where you came from.
6) Treat people like a person and not like an object whenever you can, even when you're in conflict.
7) Be straight up in your intimate relationships, too. You can't be true to yourself if you're fucking someone else over to get what you want.
8) What other people truly own, respect that. What you truly own, cherish it. What other people claim is their own when it isn't, nick it back like crazy, and put them out of business.
9) Telling porkies puts us all out of whack with True Will; but don't feel obliged to tell the authorities jack, because they'll only use it against you.
10) See Number 8. If someone else has something that you want, figure out a decent trade for it, or get one of your own.

[Buzz Dixon]

Oh, really? Tell me, which of the 10 Commandments diminishes your life?
The ones telling me how to think followed by those that tell me what to do.
Here's the list from Exodus 20 (New International Version)

The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

So what you're saying is, your life has been diminished by a proscription against killing, committing adultery (cheating on your wife or helping someone else cheat on their spouse), stealing, and lying under oath.

Do you really want so say that?

Let's look at some of the others: Not respecting your parents (which is not the same as a requirement to obey), not misusing God's name. Wouldn't you want your kids to respect you, even if they don't obey you? Would you want other people using your name in vain (and if you have no problem letting others use your name in vain, howzabout throwing in your credit card and SSN info as well?)?

Don't worship idols and have no other gods go along with God being the one and only. Now, if you don't choose to believe in God, fine; but if it's stupid to believe in a Supreme Creator, wouldn't it be more stupid to believe in a minor deity and/or an inert lump of matter?

Finally, no coveting. In other words, don't want something that belongs to someone else. You like Joe's computer, go out and get one of your own, don't let envy eat away at you. You can't have Joe's computer if he doesn't want you to have it, but there's no reason why you can't get one of your own.

Likewise, if Joe gets a blue ribbon for having the best mustache in the neighborhood, either find something else to excel in or get your mustache ready for next year's competition; don't despise Joe because he has something you don't have (also known as the "crab bucket syndrome").

[Red Jack]

That's a lot pithier, I'll give you that.

Now for the 10 Suggestions!

1) The Immanent God is your True Will. Don't be knocked off course by peer pressure.
2) The manufactured desires of consumer capitalism or political demogogues - don't be knocked off course by them, either.
3) Don't let people slip ideology or false metaphysics by you in the name of "God"; God is not what they say She is.
4) Don't get caught up in the world, but take time out for recreation, meditation, or whichever way you choose to come back to your True Will.
5) Your parents may be idiots, your church and party may be liars, and your country may be a cesspit of nationalist cupidity, but it's what you belong to, and you owe it to yourself to contribute to its genuine health. Never forget where you came from.
6) Treat people like a person and not like an object whenever you can, even when you're in conflict.
7) Be straight up in your intimate relationships, too. You can't be true to yourself if you're fucking someone else over to get what you want.
8) What other people truly own, respect that. What you truly own, cherish it. What other people claim is their own when it isn't, nick it back like crazy, and put them out of business.
9) Telling porkies puts us all out of whack with True Will; but don't feel obliged to tell the authorities jack, because they'll only use it against you.
10) See Number 8. If someone else has something that you want, figure out a decent trade for it, or get one of your own.
Works for me.

[Paul McEnery]

You (rhetorical) have the free will to cheat someone is a business deal or not to cheat them.

1) A moral person would not cheat because she has been taught it is not right to cheat; an ethical person would not cheat because he in turn would not want to be cheated.

But a wise person realizes that both sides in a negotiation are trying to get the best deal for themselves, and take appropriate action. I divide, you choose; always the best way to get a fair deal.

Not sure what this has to do with free will, though.

Although it is clear that anyone who can be convinced to go along with the moral approach is at more of a disadvantage in real world negotiations than the ethical one, especially when faced with either a sociopath or a psychopath -- so long as they're not foolish enough to trust their trading partner is exactly as ethical as they are.

[Buzz Dixon]

Oops, forgot about the one saying take some time off on a regular basis. Dude, I've traveled the workaholic route; it ain't no fun.

[Buzz Dixon]

But a wise person realizes that both sides in a negotiation are trying to get the best deal for themselves, and take appropriate action. I divide, you choose; always the best way to get a fair deal.

Not sure what this has to do with free will, though.

Although it is clear that anyone who can be convinced to go along with the moral approach is at more of a disadvantage in real world negotiations than the ethical one, especially when faced with either a sociopath or a psychopath -- so long as they're not foolish enough to trust their trading partner is exactly as ethical as they are.There's nothing wrong with trying to maximize the income and minimize the outgo. Cheating means to knowingly take something that is due the other person.

I have every right as an editor to try to get art and scripts for the lowest price I can, and to retain as many rights as possible. I do not have the right to take something from the artist I have not negotiated for openly.

If I tell the artist they're doing work for hire with a complete rights buyout, that's okay; they can accept it or reject it or negotiate for a better deal. What I can't do is tell them something that leads them to believe they still retain certain rights or fail to tell them exactly what they're selling and I'm buying.

I can't sell a used car without letting the buyer know if it's been in an accident (unless they understand it's being sold "as is"). I can't buy health insurance without letting them know if I have a pre-existing health problem. I can't pay for my groceries with a check I know I don't have the funds for.

[Paul McEnery]

So what you're saying is, your life has been diminished by a proscription against killing, committing adultery (cheating on your wife or helping someone else cheat on their spouse), stealing, and lying under oath.


So yeah, let's just skate over the economic fact that property (qua property) is reified power, that following your heart and respecting yourself may mean breaking the bonds of love, and that defending yourself against murderous bastards is on the whole a good idea.

I mean, I've never killed anyone myself, but I'm really glad my people killed a bunch of other people in WW2. Come to think of it, I have reason to believe I know at least one person who took the law into his own hands over a piece of justice, and I can't find it in my heart to condemn him.

And I think I said I'm quite keen on the truth. However, lying under oath to (second Godwin of the day!) Nazi show trial seems okay to me.


Let's look at some of the others: Not respecting your parents (which is not the same as a requirement to obey), not misusing God's name. Wouldn't you want your kids to respect you, even if they don't obey you? Would you want other people using your name in vain (and if you have no problem letting others use your name in vain, howzabout throwing in your credit card and SSN info as well?)?

Parents get the honor they deserve. If someone abuses their daughter, I don't see why she should honour him with anything but a breadknife. And for that matter, most parents are rubbish at at least half of what they're supposed to be good at. The sooner you figure that out, the sooner you reach adulthood.

And the idea that the way I routinely swear like an altar boy is in any way aking to identity theft is especially impressive. Hell, all clergymen swear like crazy! It's good for them. Makes them a helluva lot less pietistic.

Don't worship idols and have no other gods go along with God being the one and only. Now, if you don't choose to believe in God, fine; but if it's stupid to believe in a Supreme Creator, wouldn't it be more stupid to believe in a minor deity and/or an inert lump of matter?

Actually, it's a lot less stupid to believe in an idol. For a start, at least the idol exists. And secondly, it usually makes far less grand claims about itself. Idol gods usually just symbolize something that's important to the tribe. And for the most part, people with little shrines to Elvis in their house are usually much nicer than, oh say, The Pope.

Finally, no coveting. In other words, don't want something that belongs to someone else. You like Joe's computer, go out and get one of your own, don't let envy eat away at you. You can't have Joe's computer if he doesn't want you to have it, but there's no reason why you can't get one of your own.

If we didn't spend all day coveting other people's stuff, our economy would grind to a standstill.

Likewise, if Joe gets a blue ribbon for having the best mustache in the neighborhood, either find something else to excel in or get your mustache ready for next year's competition; don't despise Joe because he has something you don't have (also known as the "crab bucket syndrome").

He will not. I have the best mustache in the neighbourhood. But if he won, I would damn well outdo him next year.

Also, my marrow is bigger and more succulent. And my sunflower is taller.

[Paul McEnery]

snip.

And well, I reckon I've already had my say with the 10 Suggestions, which seem to me in every way an improvement on a set of rules that probably made sense to a particular people in a particular place and time but don't so much any more.

If "God" wants to argue with me about my ethics, he's welcome; oh but wait, I did already argue this out with my God. He agrees with me.

[Red Jack]

Here's the list from Exodus 20 (New International Version)

The Ten Commandments

1 And God spoke all these words:

2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

3 "You shall have no other gods before me.

4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand {generations} of those who love me and keep my commandments.

7 "You shall not misuse the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

8 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your manservant or maidservant, nor your animals, nor the alien within your gates. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

12 "Honor your father and your mother, so that you may live long in the land the LORD your God is giving you.

13 "You shall not murder.

14 "You shall not commit adultery.

15 "You shall not steal.

16 "You shall not give false testimony against your neighbor.

17 "You shall not covet your neighbor's house. You shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or his manservant or maidservant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor."

So what you're saying is, your life has been diminished by a proscription against killing, committing adultery (cheating on your wife or helping someone else cheat on their spouse), stealing, and lying under oath.

Do you really want so say that?

Let's look at some of the others: Not respecting your parents (which is not the same as a requirement to obey), not misusing God's name. Wouldn't you want your kids to respect you, even if they don't obey you? Would you want other people using your name in vain (and if you have no problem letting others use your name in vain, howzabout throwing in your credit card and SSN info as well?)?

Don't worship idols and have no other gods go along with God being the one and only. Now, if you don't choose to believe in God, fine; but if it's stupid to believe in a Supreme Creator, wouldn't it be more stupid to believe in a minor deity and/or an inert lump of matter?

Finally, no coveting. In other words, don't want something that belongs to someone else. You like Joe's computer, go out and get one of your own, don't let envy eat away at you. You can't have Joe's computer if he doesn't want you to have it, but there's no reason why you can't get one of your own.

Likewise, if Joe gets a blue ribbon for having the best mustache in the neighborhood, either find something else to excel in or get your mustache ready for next year's competition; don't despise Joe because he has something you don't have (also known as the "crab bucket syndrome").

No.

1) God didn't bring me out of egypt so, whoever he's talking to, it ain't me.

2) I'll worship or not worship whoever I like.

3) See above.

4) See above.

7) See above

12) i love my folks but I don't need to be told to do so. And, if they were bastards (molesting, treating me badly, racists, etc), I'd write them off so fast it would leave a vapor trail.

13) Well. This is thorny. It's not my inclination to kill humans and I can only foresee a VERY few VERY specific circumstances where it would be okay. Then again, I'm pro revenge so...

14) The Bible's definition of adultery covers my entire young adulthood. I don't need to be told not to cheat on my wife. That's why I have a wife.

15) Again, while it's not my inclination, there are a few situations in which I would steal and do it gladly.

16) I don't lie as a rule, though, obviously, everyone has and does. It will remain up to me when and why I do it.

17) sorry. Coveting is fun. Acting on it, as Paul said, takes many forms. If I see something of yours I like, I'll get or make my own. But, hell yeah, I'll covet anything I see that strikes my fancy.

When I was single, if I was interested in a girl or woman who was involved I had no qualms about letting her know. If she turned me down I backed off, but, if she didn't, if she felt I was a better bet than whoever she was with, that was her choice to make. If she chose me, no harm no foul. Life is short. Find happiness.

The point is, despite the regular allusions to sheep and shepherds, I'm neither. I'm a human. I'm superior to a sheep and don't need a shepherd.

I don't need or desire anyone holding my hand or absolving me of anything. Anyone who tries to do the former needs an invite and anyone who tries the latter can stick it. I don't believe in sin, certainly not "original" or species-wide so the need for someone to come and wash them away for all of us doesn't really work.

For me.

Mileage varies.

[Tyr]

Gail, I love you but I don't really want to go to your place of nothingness. I wanna go to a place of somethingness. I wanna meet Ben Franklin. I wanna know if he really is my many great grandfather. :smile:

[Paul McEnery]

Gail, I love you but I don't really want to go to your place of nothingness. I wanna go to a place of somethingness. I wanna meet Ben Franklin. I wanna know if he really is my many great grandfather. :smile:

It'll only turn out that he's an evil wizard who's distracting you with a cosmic crisis so he can shag your girlfriend.

[kitty_tc_69]

I'll see your ten commandments and raise you but one:

"Do as you wish, so long as it harms none".

I like it much better that way. Simpler, easier to follow and remember, and common sense. Also without a lot of unnecessary restrictions.

[Paul McEnery]

I'll see your ten commandments and raise you but one:

"Do as you wish, so long as it harms none".

I like it much better that way. Simpler, easier to follow and remember, and common sense. Also without a lot of unnecessary restrictions.

Dilige Deum et quod vis fac!

[Michael P]

Of course, it's entirely possible to keep to both.

[MacQuarrie]

I believe what I'm saying is that the Heaven/Hell paradigm is precisely the established church telling me that thinking for myself will turn out very badly for me.

Now me, I'd have thought that "God's Will" is discovered -- if not created -- in the act of working out one's own salvation.

Meanwhile, I'm pretty enamoured of the fact that the Bible states pretty clearly that every believer is a priest before God, all with equal access to "go boldly before the Lord" and let our concerns be known. We don't have to sit back and wait for "The Church" to tell us what to think. In fact, we'ver pretty much been told not to do that.

Yes, there have always been those who set themselves up in leadership because they enjoy power, or because they think everyone else is stupid and needs to be told what to do. There have also always been those who want someone else to do the thinking and make all the tough choices. I'm not really a fan of either. I'm not looking to lead, but neither am I looking to be led. I'm perfectly happy to share the road with anyone who's going my way.

I think that's what God calls us to do.

[MacQuarrie]

I'll see your ten commandments and raise you but one:

"Do as you wish, so long as it harms none".

I like it much better that way. Simpler, easier to follow and remember, and common sense. Also without a lot of unnecessary restrictions.

Does the "none" include yourself? It ought to, since harming yourself harms the people who care about you. If so, then your commandment might be harder to follow, since it does not permit rationalizations or excuses, and demands unflinching honesty and self-awareness on a level that most people don't possess.

[Paul McEnery]

Does the "none" include yourself? It ought to, since harming yourself harms the people who care about you. If so, then your commandment might be harder to follow, since it does not permit rationalizations or excuses, and demands unflinching honesty and self-awareness on a level that most people don't possess.

Ah, but the palace of wisdom is at the end of the road of excess!

[kitty_tc_69]

Does the "none" include yourself? It ought to, since harming yourself harms the people who care about you. If so, then your commandment might be harder to follow, since it does not permit rationalizations or excuses, and demands unflinching honesty and self-awareness on a level that most people don't possess.

Most interpretations do include onesself, and you're right it can be hard to follow especially if you have depression or other such issues. All I can say is it's a guideline to follow, not a tightrope with a gaping chasm to either side waiting for you to make a misstep. You're expected to to do the best you can, and when you screw up there's the whole "actions have consequences" karmic sort of concept to back it up.

[MacQuarrie]

Ah, but the palace of wisdom is at the end of the road of excess!

I dunno about that. Everything I need to know about recreational pharmaceuticals, I was able to learn by seeing my baby brother go from "really nice kid" to "that skeevy guy who loiters by the liquor store"; I didn't have to try it even once in order grow wise to it.

Sometimes it's okay to accept the "wet paint" sign without testing it yourself. Especially if you just watched somebody else sit in it.

That's one of the lovely things about humans; we're capable of (but not much inclined to) learning from others' mistakes. I think there's an alternate road to the palace of wisdom, and its a much less dangerous and much faster route. It's called "paying attention" and it involves paying attention to the many signs along the road.

[MacQuarrie]

Most interpretations do include onesself, and you're right it can be hard to follow especially if you have depression or other such issues. All I can say is it's a guideline to follow, not a tightrope with a gaping chasm to either side waiting for you to make a misstep. You're expected to to do the best you can, and when you screw up there's the whole "actions have consequences" karmic sort of concept to back it up.

Exactly.

And the entire point of the life and resurrection of Jesus is that he's filled in the chasms and taken away the horrible consequences so that you can freely get about the business of doing exactly what you said. That's why they call it the Good News. You're not going to hell. God's not glaring at you waiting for a chance to smack you for your mistakes, and you don't have to put yourself through endless rituals trying to win his approval. He already approves of you. That's the point.

You're already doing what God called you to do.

[Paul McEnery]

I dunno about that. Everything I need to know about recreational pharmaceuticals, I was able to learn by seeing my baby brother go from "really nice kid" to "that skeevy guy who loiters by the liquor store"; I didn't have to try it even once in order grow wise to it.

Sometimes it's okay to accept the "wet paint" sign without testing it yourself. Especially if you just watched somebody else sit in it.

That's one of the lovely things about humans; we're capable of (but not much inclined to) learning from others' mistakes. I think there's an alternate road to the palace of wisdom, and its a much less dangerous and much faster route. It's called "paying attention" and it involves paying attention to the many signs along the road.

Some of us are slow learners.

[kitty_tc_69]

You're already doing what God called you to do.

Yes, I am doing what She called me to do. Thanks for accepting that. :tongue:

[DavidAllred]

I don't need or desire anyone holding my hand or absolving me of anything. Anyone who tries to do the former needs an invite and anyone who tries the latter can stick it. I don't believe in sin, certainly not "original" or species-wide so the need for someone to come and wash them away for all of us doesn't really work.

For me.

Mileage varies.

I've been married long enough to know I need absolving from time to time. :)

[Red Jack]

I've been married long enough to know I need absolving from time to time. :)

yeah but she's the only one who can do it.

[Tyr]

It'll only turn out that he's an evil wizard who's distracting you with a cosmic crisis so he can shag your girlfriend.

Wait so I'll get to meet Ben Franklin and I'll have a girlfriend when I'm dead? Man I like this version of somethingness! :biggrin:

[cedardryad]

Will Catman be there? Will he be naked? If so I'll be Christian for a day.:biggrin:

If not, will you have a nothingness reserved for the Etc. that will have Catman there?:tongue:

[Azrael52]

BINARY- by Me

"Oh, hey. What's going on here?"
"Uh, Armageddon, pearly gates, lake of fire. Where have you been?"
"Well, dead, mostly."
"It's Judgement Day, dude. Get it in gear."
"OMG! That's REAL?"
"Seems that way."
"So that's what all these folks are lined up for?"
"Pretty much. See that little speck way down there by the gates?"
"Barely. There must be like a million people in this line."
"More, I bet. Anyway. That's Jesus down there."
"No shit."
"Straight up. JC."
"What's he doing?"
"Talking, catching up. Checking tickets."
"Tickets?"
"You know: to get in. To see the Big Guy. Heaven, man."
"Wow."
"Yeah."
"Looks like that's gonna take some time."
"Yeah."
"So, uh, where's the Buddhist line?"
"There isn't one. Christians only."
"Excuse me, what?"
"Christians only. One gate. One ticket taker. Jesus."
"What about Zoroasterans?"
"Nope."
"Shinto? Animist? Muslim?"
"Nope, nope, nope."
"'Christians only.'"
"Pretty much. I heard the Jews might have cut a separate deal but don't quote me."
"Wow."
"Yeah."
"Nice for the Christians."
"Yeah. It is."
"Kinda sucks for everybody else."
"Yeah. It does, I guess. But what are ya gonna do. We don't make the rules, right?"
"Somebody should complain."
"To who?"
"Well, I mean, God I guess. Or JC."
"Yeah, I don't know how much traction that will get, to be honest with you. It's kind of too late for all that. Capital T, capital L."
"Because of the whole Armageddon thing."
"Pretty much."
"Bummer."
"For some, yeah."
"So what, they all burn in the lake?"
"Yeah. That's what the other line's for."
"What other line?"
"See that over there, it looks like a mountain range? By the horizon."
"Yeah."
"That's the line for the lake."
"Holy CRAP!"
"Yeah."
"It's huge!"
"I heard like 20 billion or something. Could be a rumor."
"That's- that's like everybody in the world, EVER."
"Everybody ELSE, yeah."
"No. No, that's. That's effed up, man. Come on."
"You think so?"
"Are you kidding? You're kidding, right?"
"Not at all.'
"But, come ON, that's insane over there. All those people, they're gonna burn for eternity in a big lava pit?"
"Pretty much."
"DUDE!"
"Hey, it's not like they didn't have ample warning. It was in all the papers for like, you know, EVER."
"Yeah, but I mean, Buddhism. Who hates Buddhists?"
"Nobody I know."
"There's a lot to be said for Buddhism, right?"
"Sure. No question. Great people. Great ideas."
"My Dad was a Buddhist."
"Hey, great. That must have been cool for him."
"But he's probably in that other line then, huh?"
"Did he convert before he died?"
"Nope."
"Probably, yeah."
"Mom was an Episcopalian."
"HEY! Great! Awesome for her."
"Looks like it."
"What about you? You a Buddhist or what?"
"Or What, I guess. I could never put my feet down on the whole Universe Run By Magic Santa Claus thing."
"Irreverent."
"What can I say."
"Bet you regret that now."
"I'm starting to."
"Where are you going?"
"Other line, right? Might as well get to it."
"Wow. You're taking this REALLY well."
"Hey, you dance with who brung ya, right?"
"I suppose so."
"Besides. I think I see Mark Twain and George Carlin over there."
"I wouldn't doubt it. 'specially Carlin. That guy had a real Jones near the end."
"Funny though."
"Yeah. Funny."
"Twain too. And I think that might be Oscar Wilde next to them."
"Plus you get to see your Dad again. For a while anyway."
"A long while. Look at that line."
"Okay, then."
"Yeah."
"So, uh, "good luck?""
"What with the burning for all eternity? Thanks. I bet I get the hang of it pretty quick."
"Yeah. Doesn't look complex."
"And y'know, have fun in heaven."
"Oh, I plan to. There's a rock candy mountain with my name on it. Special order."
"They let you do that?"
"Oh, yeah. But you had to sweat for it in Life, y'know. It's that whole delayed gratification thing.
"Never was much good at that either."
"..... Well."
"So, seeya."
" I guess."
"But, I mean, not really."
"No. Not really."
copyright ©2007 geoffrey thorne

Dude, that was just insanely incredible. Good job.

[thespianphryne]

I would like to say that the only life I have evidence of is here and now.

My interest in "good" or "just" behaviour is in that if everyone around me is well-behaved, the less trouble I'll have. So, if I'm generally being excellent to my fellows I see no need to be excellent to my fellows because there's a prize in it for me, maybe...some time...later possibly...we're not even really sure.


-Das

[RaulTheCat]

Let's say I am a good charitable person, one who never spoke badly of another, went out of my way to help others, AND since we're throwing logs on the fire, let's say my last act of this world is getting smushed pushing a child out of the path of a huge-ass truck.
But I never accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior.
Hell would be kind of a harsh punishment, wouldn't you agree?

[MacQuarrie]

Let's say I am a good charitable person, one who never spoke badly of another, went out of my way to help others, AND since we're throwing logs on the fire, let's say my last act of this world is getting smushed pushing a child out of the path of a huge-ass truck.
But I never accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior.
Hell would be kind of a harsh punishment, wouldn't you agree?
It would. But neither of those issues is really on the table anyway.

Christians have a really bad habit of repeating jargon and assuming they know what it means.

When Jesus said "you must be born again," where did he say that it involved something other than a spiritual epiphany of some kind? Where in the Bible do you find anything remotely resembling what Christians today will tell you is the fundamentals of the faith? Jesus went around going out of his way to love and heal people who were considered outcasts, lowlifes, unclean, disreputable. He was trying to make a point; salvation is not just for nice people who follow the rules. It's for anybody who is willing to accept it, and "accept it" does not mean parrot a prayer.

If God said to you today, "the door is open and there's no charge, are you willing to come into my kingdom?" what would you say?

That's it. The Gospel in a nutshell. If you met God, would you look at him as your creator who loves you or as your judge who condemns you? The whole of Christianity is, will you allow God to love you?

[Red Jack]

Dude, that was just insanely incredible. Good job.

Thanx. Glad you dug it.

[Joshua Pantalleresco]

It's a serious question!

Who's saying you'll have nothing?

JP

[Sound Silence]

If God said to you today, "the door is open and there's no charge, are you willing to come into my kingdom?" what would you say?

That's it. The Gospel in a nutshell. If you met God, would you look at him as your creator who loves you or as your judge who condemns you? The whole of Christianity is, will you allow God to love you?

Well, maybe if God would go around talking to people instead of hiding out, maybe he'd get mroe of a response.

Just a thought.

[stealthwise]

Who's saying you'll have nothing?

JP

She is. Gail is an atheist.

[Tages]

The concept of the "dark ages" is largely a myth.

Pretty much (http://web.maths.unsw.edu.au/~jim/renaissance.html).

Sure, the time between the fall of Rome and Charlemagne was pretty bad. But the medieval period in general was a period of significant advancement in many fields.

Granted, the Muslim, Chinese and Greek Orthodox worlds were advancing at a faster pace than Catholic Europe, but it's not like Rome went to Hell and all of the sudden people thought the roads and aqueducts had been built by giants or something. And I'm not aware of scientists being burnt at the stake. Suspected witches (though the vast majority of that was confined to what is Germany today), Cathars, and other designated heretics maybe, but not scientists.

Also note that the Spanish Inquisition only started targetting the Spanish conversos at around the same time as the Renaissance began.

[Michael P]

Really, the witch burnings everyone remembers happened in the 17th Century, just when the Enlightenment was getting into full swing.

[Tages]

8) You shall not steal
Property is theft.

"Property is freedom."

:biggrin:

[RachelEvil]

Freedom is theft.

[stealthwise]

Freedom is anarchy.

[DavidAllred]

Well, maybe if God would go around talking to people instead of hiding out, maybe he'd get mroe of a response.

Just a thought.

He tried that already. And people basically said, "Why should we trust this guy?"

If I were God, I probably would have quit long before he did.

I think God could set up an office in New York city, create a website, and start answering questions in between walking on water, and our basic human nature has just enough pride to find a reason to go it without him.

[stealthwise]

If I were God, I probably would have quit long before he did.


Well yeah, it's no fun being God if you have a three-inch wang. ;)

[DavidAllred]

Well yeah, it's no fun being God if you have a three-inch wang. ;)

That's generous for most stamens. ;)

[RachelEvil]

Freedom is anarchy.

And we've now crossed the streams of anarchist slogans. :)

[MacQuarrie]

"Property is freedom."

:biggrin:

"Property is the mainspring of civilization." - Rose Wilder Lane

[stealthwise]

And we've now crossed the streams of anarchist slogans. :)

Oh, don't EVER cross the streams.