why doesn't the JLA just kick the crap out of Deathstroke?

[Tanjint]

I mean, this dude sets up elaborate deathtraps for their 15 year old kids, sidekicks, etc. all the time...yet he's still just the Titans problem?

Has there ever been an in-universe explanation for why Bats/Supes etc. don't kick the crap out of this dude every time he horrifically murders or mutilates these poor kids?

-T

[Jmacq1]

No, because if these universes operated in a logical or rational manner all the time, either the Heroes would have already created utopia, or one villain or another would have conquered/destroyed earth, and in either case, there aren't any more particularly entertaining stories to tell.

Welcome to comic books.

[XPac]

I mean, this dude sets up elaborate deathtraps for their 15 year old kids, sidekicks, etc. all the time...yet he's still just the Titans problem?

Has there ever been an in-universe explanation for why Bats/Supes etc. don't kick the crap out of this dude every time he horrifically murders or mutilates these poor kids?

-T

Well, in all fairness these 15 year old kids usually end up beating him anyways. As long as they can effectively handle him, I suppose it's reasonable for them to assume he's still a Titans problem.

Every once in a while he'll end up on Batmans radar, and Bruce will have to handle him too.

[Tanjint]

No, because if these universes operated in a logical or rational manner all the time, either the Heroes would have already created utopia, or one villain or another would have conquered/destroyed earth, and in either case, there aren't any more particularly entertaining stories to tell.

Welcome to comic books.


welcome to comic books where there's no care for the integrity of the shared universe and where people can't see a great story oppurtunity when it's right in front of them?

I'm not asking for consistent logic and detailed continuity matching that of the real worlds...but seriously, Robin's never told Batman about this Slade guy who shoots Kid Flash in the kneecap and murders his friends?

furthermore, i'm not asking for rational logic all the time...but just once addressing why the JLA don't friggin' debilitate Slade would be nice.


-T

[Tanjint]

Every once in a while he'll end up on Batmans radar, and Bruce will have to handle him too.

could you direct me to such an instance?

-T

[Dorsai]

Outside of the Teen Titans animated series, my only exposure to Deathstroke was Identity Crisis. I thought in that book, he wiped the floor with the League including Batman. However, I read that one afternoon at Barnes and Nobles so my memory may not be correct. Am I remembering that correctly?

[jesse_custer]

He indeed gave them trouble in Identity Crisis, but I don't think Batman was part of the group against him.

[Jake V]

Outside of the Teen Titans animated series, my only exposure to Deathstroke was Identity Crisis. I thought in that book, he wiped the floor with the League including Batman. However, I read that one afternoon at Barnes and Nobles so my memory may not be correct. Am I remembering that correctly?

He wiped the floor with them, but Batman wasn't there. Later in Infinite Crisis, Batman (along with Nightwing and Robin) kicked the crap out of him in less than a page.

[Jmacq1]

Well, actually it took place over a few pages, the fight was just nearly all off-panel. Slade has also run afoul of Azrael, the Birds of Prey, Nightwing (as an individual, not as part of a team), the Outsiders, Batgirl (Cassandra Cain version), and has even butted heads solo with Superman and Wonder Woman, so it's not like the guy is completely limited to the Titans books.

Regardless, you may as well ask why nobody's executed the Joker, or why Superman hasn't thrown Lex Luthor in the phantom zone (or worse), or whatever. (Or perhaps more accurately, ask why Batman doesn't call Superman or the Flash (or both!) to use his powers to instantly find the Joker and toss him back in jail every time he escapes...not like it'd take more than a couple seconds out of their day(s)).

The JLA hasn't "debilitated" Slade because doing so removes further storytelling possibilities with that villain. Given that Slade's arguably the most "iconic" Teen Titans adversary, he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Plus, as mentioned, for all that he's done, the Titans have still ended up being able to stop him.

[jesse_custer]

Just curious: Have Deathstroke and Deadpool ever met in any ridiculous crossover?

[titanfan]

I mean, this dude sets up elaborate deathtraps for their 15 year old kids, sidekicks, etc. all the time...yet he's still just the Titans problem?

We're talking about a group (JLA) who were CAPTURED by adult versions of the Teen Titans. When Blue Beetle frees them, what do they do?

"So sorry, we have another emergency. We trust you guys to handle this yourselves. Toodles!"

They actually lost to the future Titans and upon getting freed decide to just leave their proteges to handle the situation...

[Jmacq1]

Just curious: Have Deathstroke and Deadpool ever met in any ridiculous crossover?

I don't recall....there might have been a throwaway panel or two in one of the Marvel/DC Crossovers back in the 90's, but I only recall the panel of Deathstroke and Punisher in a shootout against each other from the first one.

Deathstroke did throw down with Wolverine in the old Titans/X-Men crossover, though.

[The Cool Thatguy]

We're talking about a group (JLA) who were CAPTURED by adult versions of the Teen Titans. When Blue Beetle frees them, what do they do?

"So sorry, we have another emergency. We trust you guys to handle this yourselves. Toodles!"

They actually lost to the future Titans and upon getting freed decide to just leave their proteges to handle the situation...

No one would cite that as evidence of good writing ;)

IIRC, they also had Wonder Wgirl defending Brimstone's life, when it's been long established that Brimstone is as 'alive' as a sentinel.

[Jmacq1]

We're talking about a group (JLA) who were CAPTURED by adult versions of the Teen Titans. When Blue Beetle frees them, what do they do?

"So sorry, we have another emergency. We trust you guys to handle this yourselves. Toodles!"

They actually lost to the future Titans and upon getting freed decide to just leave their proteges to handle the situation...

And who said Superdickery was only in the Silver Age? :biggrin:

[Eumenides]

could you direct me to such an instance?

-T

I believe in the early issues of Deathstroke there was the customary guest appearence by Batman to boost sales. Slade beats Batman within an inch of his life, then he steals one of Bruce Wayne's tuxedos. Great story.

[Blueferret]

welcome to comic books where there's no care for the integrity of the shared universe and where people can't see a great story oppurtunity when it's right in front of them?

I'm not asking for consistent logic and detailed continuity matching that of the real worlds...but seriously, Robin's never told Batman about this Slade guy who shoots Kid Flash in the kneecap and murders his friends?

furthermore, i'm not asking for rational logic all the time...but just once addressing why the JLA don't friggin' debilitate Slade would be nice.


-T


Just out of curiosity, who has Slade killed?

[Jmacq1]

I believe in the early issues of Deathstroke there was the customary guest appearence by Batman to boost sales. Slade beats Batman within an inch of his life, then he steals one of Bruce Wayne's tuxedos. Great story.

There was a story arc in Detective Comics in the late 90's (Slade's "blue costume" era) that pitted them against each other again. Slade clobbered Batman in their first battle in that arc, but Batman clubbed Slade into unconsciousness with his own gun in the second one (though it may be noted that Slade wasn't exactly going all-out in the second fight, either, as he was more concerned with trying to complete the contract he'd taken...he was just to the point of getting ticked enough at Batman to pull out the sword when Bats clubbed him). Batman also stole his sword for a trophy and hung it over his mantlepiece at Wayne Manor. :biggrin:

I think there was at least one more Batman/Deathstroke meeting somewhere in there, too.

[Tanjint]

Well, actually it took place over a few pages, the fight was just nearly all off-panel. Slade has also run afoul of Azrael, the Birds of Prey, Nightwing (as an individual, not as part of a team), the Outsiders, Batgirl (Cassandra Cain version), and has even butted heads solo with Superman and Wonder Woman, so it's not like the guy is completely limited to the Titans books.

Regardless, you may as well ask why nobody's executed the Joker, or why Superman hasn't thrown Lex Luthor in the phantom zone (or worse), or whatever. (Or perhaps more accurately, ask why Batman doesn't call Superman or the Flash (or both!) to use his powers to instantly find the Joker and toss him back in jail every time he escapes...not like it'd take more than a couple seconds out of their day(s)).

The JLA hasn't "debilitated" Slade because doing so removes further storytelling possibilities with that villain. Given that Slade's arguably the most "iconic" Teen Titans adversary, he's not going anywhere anytime soon. Plus, as mentioned, for all that he's done, the Titans have still ended up being able to stop him.

Nah, it's not like the Joker/Lex or whatever situation because Joker and Lex are dealt with by the big guns for the most part...but Slade seems as dangerous as them but the League just seems to so often leave it to the kids.

and I mean debilitate like comic book debilitate. If they break a limb, he can be be back in 3 issues, you know? Leg breaking constitutes debilitation.

so I'm not talking final solution like you are with lex/joker. I'm just talking about being dealt with by Bats/Supes/Trinity/League level heroes.

hm, if a trade was made collecting all Bat/Stroke encounters I'd buy it.

are any of the encounters you all just told me about in trade?

-T

[brundlefly]

Just curious: Have Deathstroke and Deadpool ever met in any ridiculous crossover?

Sort of. Joe Kelly wrote a Batman/Superman annual where the Earth 2 Crime Syndicate crosses over to the main DCU Earth and gets into it with Batman and Superman (who are on board a cruise ship as Bruce Wayne and Clark Kent, along with Lois). Deathstroke is also onboard the cruise ship, trying to fulfill a contract on Bruce and from the portal to Earth 2 comes the Earth 2 "good-guy" version of Slade, which was an obvious analogue of Kelly's Deadpool, with the hyperactive Jim Carrey shtick and everything, who then faces off against Deathstroke.

http://www.silverbulletcomics.com/shop/product.php?a=89077

[Tanjint]

Just out of curiosity, who has Slade killed?

not sure, but haven't a bunch of his kids died because of him?

-T

[Raker616]

Hopefully James JL will take care of guys like Slade and others who've gotten away with doing all sorts of evil acts, without getting a well deserved beatdown because it's about time.

[brundlefly]

not sure, but haven't a bunch of his kids died because of him?


His son Grant died trying to emulate him as the Ravager (the same identity his daughter Rose took on, also to emulate him). Slade did kill his other son, Jericho, when Jericho was possessed by demons and whatnot, but since Jericho survived by transferring his consciousness into Slade I don't know if that counts either. His half-brother Wade (who also used the Ravager identity) killed a number of Slade's family before Slade orchestrated his death at the hands of Rose. So, yeah, a number of his family have died "because of him," arguably, but he wasn't the one who killed them.

[TradePaperbackTraitor]

He indeed gave them trouble in Identity Crisis, but I don't think Batman was part of the group against him.

I seem to recall him kicking the crap out of the JLA in that sequence. (Although if memory serves, they eventually overcome him?)

[jesse_custer]

He was kicking the crap out of them until Ollie Queen stabbed an arrow stub into his bad eye.

[WorstThingUS]

I mean, this dude sets up elaborate deathtraps for their 15 year old kids, sidekicks, etc. all the time...yet he's still just the Titans problem?

Has there ever been an in-universe explanation for why Bats/Supes etc. don't kick the crap out of this dude every time he horrifically murders or mutilates these poor kids?

-T

Because it would be like the issue where Deathstroke went to Metropolis. Guess how that ended? Obviously he later broke out of jail, but it was pretty much Superman grabbing him and throwing him into a cell. Later, Deathstroke is hired to kill Superman and gives him Kryptonite poisoning through some woman I can't remember. Later when the Atom is trying to get it out of Superman's system, Deathstroke attacks. He and the Atom fight. Guess how that ends? And this was a de-aged Ray Palmer kicking his ass.

This is why that issue of Identity Crisis was so much crap. Anyone with real superpowers is just going to kick his ass, the way he kicked Batman's ass. He can't fight a Green Lantern, period. Much less a Green Lantern and all his pals.

[brundlefly]

He was kicking the crap out of them until Ollie Queen stabbed an arrow stub into his bad eye.

Followed by Dr. Light having a "recovered memory,"spazzing out, and blinding everybody, which caused more of a 'non-finish' to the fight as opposed to the JLA overcoming or defeating Slade.

[WorstThingUS]

Just out of curiosity, who has Slade killed?

He lead the team that killed the Freedom Fighters and personally murdered Phantom Lady.

[Tanjint]

word...I guess it just frustrates me when I'm reading a Titans story and the kids are in SUCH despair and hopelessness against some horrific plot that Slade has cooked up and they act like there's no recourse. The whole time I'm ripping my hair out thinking "You're fu__ng ROBIN! Hit up a Bat person! Can I at least see a com link attempt?"

I just can't suspend the disblief.

and not all the time, it's cool that the Titans really are on their own against Slade most of the time. But every once in a while, it would lend a great deal of integrity to the shared DCU if one out of every 17 times Slade tries to maim a Titan, one of the Trinity comes and scares the sh-- out of the little child molestor.

and as far as the slade comes to metropolis story....that's not what I want. I want to see a Titans story where slade about has them beat and then the JLA come out of nowhere like some angry parents. Just once. Then I could suspend my disblief from then on while reading Titans.

Because if the titans are who the titans are, then it's unbelievable to think that's never happened.

-T

[Froggy]

Because it would be like the issue where Deathstroke went to Metropolis. Guess how that ended? Obviously he later broke out of jail, but it was pretty much Superman grabbing him and throwing him into a cell. Later, Deathstroke is hired to kill Superman and gives him Kryptonite poisoning through some woman I can't remember. Later when the Atom is trying to get it out of Superman's system, Deathstroke attacks. He and the Atom fight. Guess how that ends? And this was a de-aged Ray Palmer kicking his ass.

This is why that issue of Identity Crisis was so much crap. Anyone with real superpowers is just going to kick his ass, the way he kicked Batman's ass. He can't fight a Green Lantern, period. Much less a Green Lantern and all his pals. THANK YOu

stabbing the flash?

BS

[Jmacq1]

There's also one other key point to consider: If the Titans call the JLA to whup on Slade (particularly in their own book), then it makes the Titans look bad. After all, if they can't handle it, maybe they shouldn't be doing the superhero thing at all, right?

How far does your "suspension of suspension of disbelief go?"

You sound like you've just got some kind of beef with Slade as a character, which is fine, but you're turning it into something that calls for not-so-good storytelling and/or deconstructing some of the fundamental tropes of superhero comics. Not that all Slade vs. Titans stories are good, but two wrongs don't make a right.

[mgs]

I thought in that book, he wiped the floor with the League including Batman.

the WHOLE league? O.OBatman also stole his sword for a trophy and hung it over his mantlepiece at Wayne Manor. :biggrin:
</p>
he hung this trophy proudly?

[Tanjint]

There's also one other key point to consider: If the Titans call the JLA to whup on Slade (particularly in their own book), then it makes the Titans look bad. After all, if they can't handle it, maybe they shouldn't be doing the superhero thing at all, right?

How far does your "suspension of suspension of disbelief go?"

You sound like you've just got some kind of beef with Slade as a character, which is fine, but you're turning it into something that calls for not-so-good storytelling and/or deconstructing some of the fundamental tropes of superhero comics. Not that all Slade vs. Titans stories are good, but two wrongs don't make a right.

I like the Slade character but I have a couple issues with him, yeah.

a) He seems like he'd be a pretty great Bat-villain. I've read about 3 Titans/Slade stories and they were all pretty formulaic. Once I'd read one, I'd read 'em all. I feel he could be used fresher in Bat-books.

b) If Lex Luthor or Joker were terrorizing the Titans, the JLA wouldn't ignore it. Slade does seem to be in that tier of villainy and it strains my suspension of disbelief when EVERY time he goes after the KIDS who are CLOSEST to the DCU's TRINITY, he gets no unwanted JLA attention. Kinda like how it's hard to believe the X-books happen in the same universe as the rest of the MU because they do such a ridiculous job of ignoring each other when it would strengthen all the books to have that shared universe tightly done. I guess it's fitting, since the Titans have kind of always been DC's X-Men or vice versa.

-T

[Jmacq1]

You seem to fail to consider that some people don't want to see the JLA showing up in Titans every other story arc. Not everyone likes a continuity that's wound so tight that you can't flip a page without seeing someone that wouldn't normally belong in the book. Some people say if the want to read about the JLA, they'll buy the JLA book....

You also seem to forget the earlier point: Take away Slade, and the Titans no longer really have their number one "arch-enemy." It's like saying Lex Luthor should move to being a full-time Batman villain and leave Superman alone, or sending the Joker to be a full-time opponent for the Flash. You're cutting out a fairly major portion of their mythos.

Plus, Deathstroke doesn't really bring anything new to Batman's rogues' gallery. He's just a hyped up, mildly superhuman assassin. Beyond that, he's still at least partially considered a "Bat-Family" rogue. I'm fairly certain that outside of Titans and his own title, he's shown up in Bat-Family titles far more than anywhere else (particularly if you include Birds of Prey as a Bat-Family title).

And yes, if Lex Luthor and/or the Joker were terrorizing the Titans in their own book, the JLA would ignore it, or would get some contrived reason for why they couldn't interfere (or the whole thing would be over before they found out about it). That's what writers do so the heroes of their own book can, y'know, actually be the heroes of their own book.

[jesse_custer]

I think the best solution to this dissonance is to just read Jonah Hex.

[brundlefly]

And yes, if Lex Luthor and/or the Joker were terrorizing the Titans in their own book, the JLA would ignore it, or would get some contrived reason for why they couldn't interfere (or the whole thing would be over before they found out about it). That's what writers do so the heroes of their own book can, y'know, actually be the heroes of their own book.

They, in fact, did ignore it when Lex and Brainiac went after the Titans and the Outsiders in a pre-Infinite Crisis crossover, and then again both when Lex showed up in the Titans annual at Titans Tower (when Kon-El was recovering from his battle with SBoy-Prime) and when Robin and the Titans were led to one of Lex's secret labs while they were searching for a cure to help Kon-El.

[COMIC GEEK]

could you direct me to such an instance?

-T


check out the deathstroke series...


not sure, but haven't a bunch of his kids died because of him?

-T

slade only has 3 - one died.... one is jericho and the other is the new ravager

[Pól Rua]

I mean, this dude sets up elaborate deathtraps for their 15 year old kids, sidekicks, etc. all the time...yet he's still just the Titans problem?

Has there ever been an in-universe explanation for why Bats/Supes etc. don't kick the crap out of this dude every time he horrifically murders or mutilates these poor kids?

-T

Same reason Superman doesn't pound the bejeezus out of the Penguin.
Because it makes for a lousy story.

[Tanjint]

You seem to fail to consider that some people don't want to see the JLA showing up in Titans every other story arc. Not everyone likes a continuity that's wound so tight that you can't flip a page without seeing someone that wouldn't normally belong in the book. Some people say if the want to read about the JLA, they'll buy the JLA book....

You also seem to forget the earlier point: Take away Slade, and the Titans no longer really have their number one "arch-enemy." It's like saying Lex Luthor should move to being a full-time Batman villain and leave Superman alone, or sending the Joker to be a full-time opponent for the Flash. You're cutting out a fairly major portion of their mythos.

Plus, Deathstroke doesn't really bring anything new to Batman's rogues' gallery. He's just a hyped up, mildly superhuman assassin. Beyond that, he's still at least partially considered a "Bat-Family" rogue. I'm fairly certain that outside of Titans and his own title, he's shown up in Bat-Family titles far more than anywhere else (particularly if you include Birds of Prey as a Bat-Family title).

And yes, if Lex Luthor and/or the Joker were terrorizing the Titans in their own book, the JLA would ignore it, or would get some contrived reason for why they couldn't interfere (or the whole thing would be over before they found out about it). That's what writers do so the heroes of their own book can, y'know, actually be the heroes of their own book.


i specifically said, every once in a while. Not every other story arc.


Furthermore, Lex being a Bats villain and Joker being a Flash villain would be bloody brilliant for a couple years our time.


-T

[stealthwise]

He was kicking the crap out of them until Ollie Queen stabbed an arrow stub into his bad eye.

The thing that bothered me the most at first was that Ollie didn't choose to stab him in his GOOD eye.

The guy's such a threat and you're not going to take the opportunity to disable him?

[COMIC GEEK]

The thing that bothered me the most at first was that Ollie didn't choose to stab him in his GOOD eye.

The guy's such a threat and you're not going to take the opportunity to disable him?


yeah like the joker right? :rolleyes:

its a comic book

[NOD]

the WHOLE league? O.O

Yeah, it was vaguely cool, but mostly just stupid.
I guess it was meant to show how off their game the JLA was with the death of Sue Dibny and the whole "*gasp* we're morally compromised!" thing.

The stupidest part is that he beats all of them (Flash, GA, Canary, Elongated Man, Atom, Hawkman and Zatanna) when they try using their powers but then starts losing when they all try to dog pile him.

[Shellhead]

Yeah, it was vaguely cool, but mostly just stupid.
I guess it was meant to show how off their game the JLA was with the death of Sue Dibny and the whole "*gasp* we're morally compromised!" thing.

The stupidest part is that he beats all of them (Flash, GA, Canary, Elongated Man, Atom, Hawkman and Zatanna) when they try using their powers but then starts losing when they all try to dog pile him.

It really is one of the worst-written fight scenes in modern times. Remember the part where Slade expected this fight to take place in an exact area of the sidewalk, so he took time in advance to bury land mines there? And he's fast enough to prevent Green Lantern from doing *anything* with the ring, but too slow to prevent a guy without superpowers from stabbing him in the eye?

[Kage Kisaragi]

This is why that issue of Identity Crisis was so much crap. Anyone with real superpowers is just going to kick his ass, the way he kicked Batman's ass. He can't fight a Green Lantern, period. Much less a Green Lantern and all his pals.

Which was particularly odd because of how Deathstroke explained his method in defeating the Flash (Wally), by predicting where Wally was going to run/move he held his sword point going behind him so that Flash would run into it.. Uhhhh.. this isn't looney toons Slade, if the Flash can see bullets and consider them slow motion, how is't you holding a pointed sword backwards going to slip by his sights? ... that was another case of Superdickery on the part of the writer, but it was comical to see Wallys face. haha

[titanfan]

Which was particularly odd because of how Deathstroke explained his method in defeating the Flash (Wally), by predicting where Wally was going to run/move he held his sword point going behind him so that Flash would run into it.. Uhhhh.. this isn't looney toons Slade, if the Flash can see bullets and consider them slow motion, how is't you holding a pointed sword backwards going to slip by his sights? ... that was another case of Superdickery on the part of the writer, but it was comical to see Wallys face. haha

Actually, I thought it was the one well done part of the fight. He knew where Wally was going to move because he had fought Wally as a member of of the Teen Titans. He did that exact *same* move to Wally in a New Teen Titans issue (when Wally wasn't as fast, so it was more believable). Thus, he had a good idea where Wally would be this time--Wally was too smart to make the same mistake twice, so Wally adjusted--but this time Slade also adjusted to where he knew Wally would adjust--and wham. It really was a homage to the previous Titans vs. Deathstroke fights.

[TROUBLEZ]

I'm not asking for consistent logic and detailed continuity matching that of the real worlds...but seriously, Robin's never told Batman about this Slade guy who shoots Kid Flash in the kneecap and murders his friends?

furthermore, i'm not asking for rational logic all the time...but just once addressing why the JLA don't friggin' debilitate Slade would be nice.


-T

I agree with you. I understand how comics work and that certain villains need to stay in their respective arch-rivals books (Batman and The Joker, Superman and Lex, etc).

BUT, DC right now is making it a point to have all their titles interconnected, and Slade kicked the JLA's ass in Identity Crisis, and blew up a city (I think) and killed off all these B-list heroes. And since DC is trying so hard to make their comics more "realistic" you think questions like yours would be addressed in the stories. I mean, isn't Deathstoke now a villain of everyone, and not just a Titans foe?

[Alan2099]

Why don't they JLA beat all of the Titan's foes for them? After all, those kids obviously can't handle their own enemies, right? Then, maybe after that, they can move on to beating up all the Arkham inmates, followed by the Flash's rogue's gallery after that. Then , anytime they meet anybody that's even remotely a superhuman threat, they can all gang up on him inmasse and beat the tar out of the guy. That's make for some great stories!

[Tanjint]

thank you Troublez. I mean, the JLA only needs to read half this guy's M.O. to know he needs a limb broken. You can do it is one issue, hell a one shot for 3.99 and then go back to having them ignore each other from then on and just direct people like me to the one shot.

-T

[Tanjint]

Why don't they JLA beat all of the Titan's foes for them? After all, those kids obviously can't handle their own enemies, right? Then, maybe after that, they can move on to beating up all the Arkham inmates, followed by the Flash's rogue's gallery after that. Then , anytime they meet anybody that's even remotely a superhuman threat, they can all gang up on him inmasse and beat the tar out of the guy. That's make for some great stories!

it's funny, the only stilt people arguing against my suggestion are standing on is 'every time' 'every time' every time' 'every time' when I'm just asking for ONE issue to address this issue ONCE. I just want to see the JLA kick the crap out of him once foiling one of his sick plots to mutilate the kids. it would make sense to see it just ONCE, don't you agree?

-T

[Johnny_Luck]

No, and its clear your not getting it. If JLA needs to even just once, step in and handle Deathstroke for the titans its basically saying the TT should dismantle because they are weakling who cannot handle themselves.

I mean they face Trigon and Brother Blood they can friggin take care of DS.

[Jmacq1]

So basically you just want some one-off gratification so you can see a character get beat up?

I mean seriously....it's kind of disturbing how badly you want Slade to get some kind of comeuppance from the JLA. Particularly since you seem to make it clear that you want it to be meaningless in the long run (I don't think getting a few broken bones is exactly going to change his outlook on life).

You also may want to re-read some (most) of Slade's Titans appearances...he's rarely about "mutilating" the kiddies, and the one time I can think of that he did (Bart's knee) he was possessed/not in his right mind. In either case he's rarely threatened the Titans with anything worse than what every other villain they fight wants to do to them (kill/destroy/corrupt). He's just had the distinction of being more successful at it than most. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you've only been familiar with/read about Slade in the past few years. He's a wildly inconsistent character in terms of how he's written, and he's definitely been written as "worse/more evil" in the past few years than he was previously...heck in the early-late 90's he was more of an anti-hero than a villain, and even had his own title.

Arguably the JLA stepping in and beating the crap out of Slade on the Titans' behalf makes the situation you're so angry about worse. Because now instead of "why do they seem to ignore him?" it's "why don't they beat him up again like they did the last time?"

[Tanjint]

Desiring one-off gratification from a comic book? GASP! Didn't realize I was so wrong in that desire...What should I be desiring from comic books?

Anyway, if the Titans were just some random superhero kid group it'd be a WHOLE different story. But these are the JUSTICE LEAGUE'S KIDS for all intents and purposes. It weakens my suspension of disbelief when the nature of the shared universe is ignored in such a manner. Wonder Woman can fly in and stop Wonder Girl and Conner from making out but she's never around when the mercenary assassin is chuckin' knives at 'em? Come on!

I'm not even necessarily saying send the JLA after him...just address the issue. Make me BELIEVE that the JLA wouldn't kick his ass for this stuff. I don't want the Titans to cry to the JLA for help, I want Wonder Woman or someone to be stopping by for one of her Cassie-don't-make-out-with-dudex missions and happen to show up around the same time Deathstroke broke a 16 year old's sternum.

I don't know, I'm open for the issue to be resolved in a number of ways. Give me something, otherwise the JLA look like the most irresponsible bunch of adults in the DCU...which I guess in a way they are...I don't know.

and yeah, I am new to the Titans. Hell, I'm relatively new to DC outside of Batman. Just trying to make sense of the DCU I guess...because it often doesn't.

I mean look at how Marvel handles these situations.

In Runaways, Cap clearly wants the Runaways to be in a safe non-superhero environment.

In Fallen Son we saw both teams of Avengers vying for influence over Young Avengers kids.

The way it's dealt with makes sense...in Titans, we're supposed to ignore that these are the JLA's sidekicks and remember it at the same time?

In Johns titans run, the heroes initially seem concerned about the kids staying at Titans tower but do nothing to address these concerns. They eventually just give in and let the kids do as they will as opposed to, I don't know, neutralizing the threats that concern them? or at least addressing why they don't?

You can say "their lives are going to be dangerous regardless" and that would make sense if they had a new threat every time but it's like the same three guys that harass these kids on a constant basis! Deathstroke, Raven's dad...a couple Flash villains...I don't know. Hell maybe it would freshen the franchise to see these same recurring villains off the table for a while.

Once more, I see why Titans are the X-Men of their respective universe. In X-Men I always wonder why Thor doesn't just hammer Sinister or Apocalypse in the face you know?

I realy really really want an "Acts of Vengeance" collection, I've never read it but the concept makes an assload of sense. After a while of fighting the same people all the time, the heroes and villains would do well to switch off and see if their successes are better that way.

Gotta admit the whole time I was reading JMS' first spidey story..as much as I loved it, I wondered "there's no friends of spidey in the vicinity of the entire NYC that are in Morlun's power level that could help him out as he dies? really?"

and that goes back to the concern of this approach fucking up the quality of superhero stories everywhere.

But it would be more 'realism' applied to the comic book worlds and think about it: if heroes/villains did act more rationally and switched off opponents more often, in say the 'real world', would that really mean there'd be no dramatc conflict in the world of superheroes? I think not. I think it just needs to be written right.

That's why I love Bendis right now. He's using the whole scope of the MU in a 'realistic' way in application to a very unrealistic (though it has a lot of real world connotations) situation. I mean, Norman Osborn seducing Captain Marvel into the ways of evil after he totals Thunderbolts mountain? Bloody brilliant!

Yeah, what I'm asking for is a lot but what it really is is for intelligent reinforcement of the shared universe.

It's also why I liked Kirkman's Marvel Team Up so much. It wasn't a random pairing one shot adventure every issue but rather tales that swept through all of NYC and as a result the MU in a logical, fun, inclusive way over several issues that still led to a different team up every month.

-T

[Alan2099]

So basically you want the JLA to step in and tell the Titans they aren't good enough to fight the guy they've been fighting for years.

Now, either the Titans are a group of superheroes that can handle themselves or they can't.

If they can handle themselves, then Deathstroke isn't anything bigger than Trigon or Brother Blood.

If they can't handle themselves, then they don't need to be in the buisness in the first place.

They maybe a younger generation, but they're not kids that need protecting.
Of course if you're constantly wondering why more powerful heroes don't show up to beat less power enemies that they have no real connection with then it's probably pointless to try to convince you anyway.

[Shellhead]

This sounds like a job for Superdickery!

I picture a cover shot of Superman holding an unconscious Deathstroke over his head, declaring to the surrounding Teen Titans, "You kids will be safe after this. Go home now, and don't forget to do your homework."

[Tanjint]

I guess, I'm saying there shouldn't be a need for a real connection between characters for them to fight.

A times? Yeah, it makes for a cool story but to me it's just as bad story telling to make every villain have a connection with every hero they fight.

Sometimes villains are just destroying shit/people and they need to be stopped.

-T

[Tanjint]

also, how is wonder woman stopping conner/cassie from making out in the Johns run NOT superdickery?

I'd be frickin' pissed.

-T

[Tanjint]

also to me, such a story as I'm proposing would be less of the JLA making the Titans inadequate looking, and more seeing how frickin' pissed the JLA would be if they saw someone shooting their kids in the kneecaps.

-T

[TROUBLEZ]

I don't see how the JLA, or any other group going after Deathstroke would make the Titans look inadequate. DC made it a point to make Deathstroke a major DC villain. And considering that DC is relying so much on continuity to explain everything (Batman acted like a a$$ not because he really is an a$$ but because he got mindwiped along time ago. And Catwoman didn't become good because she gradually matured but because the JLA mindwiped her too!).

It would make sense for Bruce to get pissed that the new home of his protege got blasted because of Deathstroke. In the sake of continuity and a sense of a real universe, I think it makes perfect sense for Batman himself, or the JLA to do something.

And besides it's not like he's just attacking the Titan's and the JLA needs to come to their rescue. Deathstroke was bodyguarding a supervillain rapist that attacked a JLA member., stabbed the Flash through the gut, killed off I think many of the original Freedom Fighteres and was a member of Villains United.

He's no longer just a Titans villain anymore. Kind of like how Wonder Woman had to whoop Captain Nazi, who is a Captain Marvel villain, in her own comic.

Or how Nightwing and Black Canary get involved in the Last Laugh Joker storyline, or when the Joker was appearing in Superman in Emperor Joker.

And it's not just that the Titans need help. It's that many other heroes now have reasons to go after him.

[COMIC GEEK]

Actually, I thought it was the one well done part of the fight. He knew where Wally was going to move because he had fought Wally as a member of of the Teen Titans. He did that exact *same* move to Wally in a New Teen Titans issue (when Wally wasn't as fast, so it was more believable). Thus, he had a good idea where Wally would be this time--Wally was too smart to make the same mistake twice, so Wally adjusted--but this time Slade also adjusted to where he knew Wally would adjust--and wham. It really was a homage to the previous Titans vs. Deathstroke fights.

actually he tripped wally up, he didnt stab wally.

[Tanjint]

that's a good way to put it Troublez. It's not that Titans need help, it's that there's reasons for other heroes to go after Deathstroke.

Also, it doesn't take me suspension of disbelief for me to buy that Joker and Lex haven't been vanquished once and for all.

Even if Superman decided right now that he wanted to fly over to the Joker and break him in half...a million things that are perfectly likely to happen in the DCU would stop him. it doesn't take alot of suspension of disbelief to believe that Supes is too busy in metropolis to knock out the Joker. it makes sense. metropolis is at least as populated as Gotham.

and Lex is too well connected and brilliant for Supes or Bats to just decide to kill or even permanently debilitate one day. That takes less suspension of disblief than believing the fact that Superman hasn't ripped an arm out of Deathstroke's socket yet. That's how dire this is.

-T

[Tanjint]

to elaborate further yet, Deathstroke isn't some well connected aristocrat in an ivory tower like Lex. He is way more touchable than Lex and even Joker. So that's why I can buy that Lex and Joker haven't been permanently done with. Deathstroke is a frickin' mercenary. It should be just slightly less easy to get your super-mitts on Slade in the DCU as it is to find Deadpool in the MU. Lex and Joker are on another level. So when they fuck with the Titans, I believe they can get away with it. I don't buy Stroke getting away with it so easily. It's as if the JLA and others don't exist in some of the Slade stories I've read. That scene where Wonder Woman stops Cassie and Conner from making out did a lot to me psychologically. Wonder Woman has enough free time to play prude mom, but not enough to save some teen-limbs?

-T

[Jmacq1]

You're argument's losing water faster than you can bail.

Joker is a mortal man, who normally fights another mortal man. If a mortal man can find and stop Joker, there is NOTHING preventing Superman from doing it (or even the Flash, who could literally canvass the entire world in less than a few minutes.

"Some of the stuff that always happens in the DCU will keep him from getting there?" How on Earth does Joker get a pass for "the stuff that always happens" but Slade doesn't? That's hypocritical in the extreme: The Joker's killed far more than Slade, in far more horrific ways (and ways far more personal to the heroes he's inflicted those deaths on). In fact, Joker HAS killed a Titan (or at least a close Titans ally) that was directly linked to a JLA Member (Jason Todd/Robin...though of course we know how that turned out). The ONLY Titan Deathstroke has killed was his own son (Jericho) while under demonic possession. So once again, please explain to my why Slade should get some kind of special treatment from the JLA, but the Joker shouldn't? Or even ALL of the Titans enemies, since pretty much all of them offer up the same kind of threat(s) that Slade does. Why should they be so angry at Slade specifically but not every single other enemy that threatens the Titans with injury or death? Heck, Trigon is a potentially world-ending threat, which is far beyond anything Slade's ever managed. Why doesn't the JLA show up to fight Trigon?

Even when Lex Luthor and Brainiac attacked the Titans and Outsiders, the JLA didn't show up, and that was a battle that cost Wonder Woman's "sister" her life (at least temporarily). Here we go again: If the JLA doesn't show up for that...why are they showing up for Slade?

Let's also note Slade isn't "just a mercenary." He's the highest paid mercenary in the world and he's got connections to all sorts of people in the criminal underworld (Hey...even Lex Luthor, imagine that). He might not be rich enough to put him into Bruce Wayne territory, but he's a multi-millionaire with more than enough to get him a couple or three lead-lined bunkers and countermeasures against being found when he doesn't want to be....

You basically want a comic where the JLA kicks down Slade's door and beats him to a pulp (to no effect, I might add, since you don't seem to want him dead or permanently destroyed). Since it's not going to dissuade him from coming after the Titans again, and it's not going to kill him, that's the very definition of "pointless" and makes every character involved look like impotent idiots.

Seriously, your lack of "suspension of disbelief" for Slade vs. allowing suspension of disbelief for Joker is ludicrous at best, and completely hypocritical at worst. Once you get beneath the surface, it doesn't make any sense at all (within the storytelling methods of Comic Books, at any rate).

[marshal99]

This sounds like a job for Superdickery!

I picture a cover shot of Superman holding an unconscious Deathstroke over his head, declaring to the surrounding Teen Titans, "You kids will be safe after this. Go home now, and don't forget to do your homework."


Ha ! I can just imagine it now. :biggrin:

The JLA beating up a helpless deathstroke and telling the titans , "okay kids , do what you normally do , the big bad wolf has been taken care of".

Just for reference , superman did capture Deathstroke for the authorities once but it's unlike the boyscout to go around beating people up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/aglity.jpg

[Tanjint]

Ha ! I can just imagine it now. :biggrin:

The JLA beating up a helpless deathstroke and telling the titans , "okay kids , do what you normally do , the big bad wolf has been taken care of".

Just for reference , superman did capture Deathstroke for the authorities once but it's unlike the boyscout to go around beating people up.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/aglity.jpg

thank you, that's all i needed to see.

i also looked again at the bat-crew/deathstroke fight in the IC tpb last night and am pretty satisfied.



-T

[Grazzt]

yeah like the joker right? :rolleyes:

its a comic book

To be fair, it's a comic book is a better reason to stab him in the good eye.

Even if he were totally blind, you just keep him out of action for a few months, then he comes back as a blind martial arts master. Or with a new robotic eye or eyes. Or a regenerative process that drives him insane.

Because it's a comic book. :tongue:

If it were a non-superhero comic book, though, issues of realism would have kept him off the front lines (although I believe that he's intelligent and rich enough to have remained a threat as an organizer).

thank you, that's all i needed to see.

I'd like to see the panel where the truck hits him. Although, I suppose it could never live up to what I'm imagining.

[Taskmaster]

The problem to me is that Slade isn't and shouldn't be portrayed as a bad guy, he walks that grey line, he's not a hero, but he doesn't do stuff that violates his moral code (screwed up as it is) thats why his his whole involvement with the Society and dropping Chemo on Bludhaven seems so out of character especially since more than once he's fought against similar things happening both on his own and with the Justice League. I am still holding out hope that somewhere along the line we'll learn that Luthor or someone is influencing Slade or he's really working for the League undercover or something because this isn't the same character that Wolfman created

[varsity_club]

Deathstroke is like the "Batman" of the super-villain community. He rarely loses, and rarely loses against even a group of superheroes. He's very resourceful, and at one time was considered a "superhero" with his own comic book series.

[Assassin Spider]

Not quite a superhero. More like anti-hero. Then again, that sort of thing was extremely popular back in the 1990s thanks to the near-wholesale move by the comics industry toward "darker and edgier." It became par for the course to set characters of dubious morality against even eviler characters, although at times the only thing separating the "good guys" from the "bad guys" was whose individual or team name was the title of the comic.

Also, speaking of Slade, it's been said more than once that Wintergreen was his conscience, essentially a morality chain keeping him from going completely off the rails. With Wintergreen's death (revealed in the first arc of Johns' Titans relaunch), Slade might have been so crazed with grief and the knowledge of what his hands had done that it completely psychologically derailed him. Canonically, the Titans were involved in the deaths of his sons and ex-wife, albeit more by just being there and having said sons and ex-wife set against them by external forces or influences, but a Slade that wasn't thinking clearly would see them as the reason his children and ex-wife were dead and seek revenge against them. At this point, I see someone playing "devil on the shoulder" to Slade, coaxing him into greater acts of retaliation against "those accursed Titans that took [his] family from [him]," until he turns upon even those in the Titans whom he once counted on as allies (such as Nightwing) and does something utterly unforgivable.

But that's just my attempt at explaining what happened to Slade in the context of canon. Your mileage may vary, and it doesn't help that some of it was a case of "writer on board," in the sense that Johns had admitted in preliminary interviews that he never really saw Slade as "respectable" or "honorable." That explains the behind-the-scenes stuff, but I'm trying to explain Slade's devolution, so to speak, in terms of the in-universe canon.

[Calybos]

The problem to me is that Slade isn't and shouldn't be portrayed as a bad guy, he walks that grey line, he's not a hero, but he doesn't do stuff that violates his moral code (screwed up as it is)... this isn't the same character that Wolfman created

Uhh, the character Wolfman created was a child molestor as well as a hired killer. There was never anything morally "gray" about Deathstroke; he's always been a pretty definitely evil person. He had more "style" about him in the early Wolfman years, but there's a big difference between that and being a legitimate anti-hero.

Just reminding people--no matter how clumsy or crazy his recent portrayals have been, Deathstroke has always been pure evil, through and through.

[chriskenny]

I believe in the early issues of Deathstroke there was the customary guest appearence by Batman to boost sales. Slade beats Batman within an inch of his life, then he steals one of Bruce Wayne's tuxedos. Great story.

Batman and Deathstroke also fought during Chuck Dixon's Detective Comics run. Batman pretty much wins in that one.

[chriskenny]

Deathstroke is like the "Batman" of the super-villain community. He rarely loses, and rarely loses against even a group of superheroes. He's very resourceful, and at one time was considered a "superhero" with his own comic book series.

I find this somewhat aggravating because often times people don't make Deathstroke's "invincibility" credible. For instance, when he fought a group of Justice Leaguers in Identity Crisis it just didn't make sense that the fastest man alive and a man with the most powerful weapon in the universe couldn't beat Deathstroke. I think its one thing to make him a formidable character, but sometimes they stretch it to the point where it makes little sense.

[Jim Thompson]

I find this somewhat aggravating because often times people don't make Deathstroke's "invincibility" credible. For instance, when he fought a group of Justice Leaguers in Identity Crisis it just didn't make sense that the fastest man alive and a man with the most powerful weapon in the universe couldn't beat Deathstroke. I think its one thing to make him a formidable character, but sometimes they stretch it to the point where it makes little sense.You're probably not going to be happy with me then, because I thought that was a fantastic scene. Slade was portrayed in a manner I think he should be, deadly not just because of his physical prowess, but because he is a master tactician.

[idistractedyou]

Deathstroke doesn't always attack the Titans with revenge as his motive. In the Titans East arc he pulls some Irina Dorevko-type gray area tactics to ensure his daughter and the ressurected Jericho finally have the loving family they needs which he cannot provide.

He maybe one of the Titan's recurring villians, but its essential they have that one recurring foe who consistently pushes them to their limits. Though thankfully he's backed off the Titans for now.

[Assassin Spider]

Uhh, the character Wolfman created was a child molestor as well as a hired killer. There was never anything morally "gray" about Deathstroke; he's always been a pretty definitely evil person. He had more "style" about him in the early Wolfman years, but there's a big difference between that and being a legitimate anti-hero.

Just reminding people--no matter how clumsy or crazy his recent portrayals have been, Deathstroke has always been pure evil, through and through.

The definition of "anti-hero" is a lot broader than you think it is. Anti-heroes can be fairly reprehensible characters in their own right, yet have some code of ethics --- self-delusion or not --- that prevents them from going as far as they could if they were pure evil like you seem to think Deathstroke is.

As for "child molestor," Terra was 16 at the time of her death, 15 when she got involved with Slade. I might be too close to 15-16 to have my opinion really count for s***, but 15-16 is too old to be counted as a "child" unless you're a middle-aged person who sees everyone below twenty or thirty as too functionally immature to count as anything but "children." More importantly, Terra not only consented, she was an equal partner --- of sorts --- in Slade's plans to take down the Teen Titans, not to mention being an unrepentant sociopath like you seem to think Slade is.

"Hired killer"? Yes, definitely, and that is the least justifiable part, admittedly. Even worse is that he became a hired killer for the challenge, to regain the thrill of the hunt, the thrill of combat, that he experienced in his days as a soldier, even at the expense of his relationships with his family and the voice of his younger son. That proves that Slade is, to a high degree, a selfish character, a character with certain addictions to violence and combat that have driven him to lengths no sane person could truly justify, but that makes him extremely and deeply flawed as a human being, not necessarily pure evil.

Speaking of evil, even if Slade were evil, there's a difference between "evil with a purpose," which is what Slade used to be, and "evil for the sake of evil," which is what a hack does to "prove" a character is evil without putting any real effort into it.

[Calybos]

So if you have sex with a crazy minor, that makes it okay? Sorry, try again. Slade was sane and deliberately evil; Terra was a nutjob as well as underage. Not a whole lot of room for "shades of gray" there.

And your definition of anti-hero--anyone who follows a personal code in their villainy--would also mean that Doctor Doom, Arcade, Two-Face, the Ultra-Humanite, and countless others should be considered anti-heroes as well. That's stretching a definition way beyond the breaking point.

[taozen]

I loved the fight with Slade and the JLA, up until GL jumped on his back. Slade was skilled enough to take on the Titans and even defeat them. The problem is that when a lot of writers use him than you are going to have inconsistencies in terms of his abilities. In that story he can take on a good portion of the league, yet I have seen issues of Nightwing when Dick give him all that he can handle. In the past he has always taken Dick out easily.

The thing I liked about Identity Crisis is that it brought back the bad @$$ Slade. It made him popular again, but with that Slade started making appearances in dozens of books that watered down his abilities to show that the hero of said book can now kick butt. Examples of this were Birds of Prey, Green Arrow, ect.

Slade is best used sparingly if he is not going to have his own title. so that when he shows up, it has a since of dread for the hero. I for one am waiting for the story written when Slade appears in the bat cave or Wayne Manor to get his sword. I believe he told Nightwing something like, "Tell you mentor that I will come and get my sword back." I can't remember the exact quote. I do want to see Slade v Batman. That to me is the epic match up that a good writer should tackle instead of hacks.

Now in terms of the league going after Slade; that is a waist of time. (And bad writing) the JLA is traditionally a group that deals with world ending events. When you have Supes, WW, GL, Martian manhunter, ect; they should not just go after Slade. They should go after Darksied. There was an issue in Deathstoke's old series when he was trying to escape a prison in Metropolis and he knew he had to get away before "Big Blue" showed up. He didn't and Supes caught him rather easily. Finally if Slade is the best mercenary money can buy, he better know how to hide or it would be over for him.

[Assassin Spider]

So if you have sex with a crazy minor, that makes it okay? Sorry, try again. Slade was sane and deliberately evil; Terra was a nutjob as well as underage. Not a whole lot of room for "shades of gray" there.

And your definition of anti-hero--anyone who follows a personal code in their villainy--would also mean that Doctor Doom, Arcade, Two-Face, the Ultra-Humanite, and countless others should be considered anti-heroes as well. That's stretching a definition way beyond the breaking point.

Terra was a "nutjob" in the sense that she was a sociopath. Sociopath doesn't mean "insane" in legal terms, as in you have no comprehension of right and wrong. Sociopath means you have a mental imbalance that renders you incapable of giving a rat's rear about who you hurt or what laws you break or how much damage you cause so long as you get what you want. That's not insane in the legal sense; that's what we would consider in layman's terms just plain evil.

Of course, I'm not surprised you'd take your interpretation. Since your problem lies with Slade rather than Terra, you decide to justify her evil --- when it was pretty clear that she was an irredeemable psychopath, and not just "insane" --- by claiming that Slade was fully cognizant of what he was doing whereas Terra was not. The truth was that Terra was an assassin before she met Slade, was already a sociopath before she met Slade, already all kinds of nasty before she met Slade.

Furthermore, Slade had an excuse --- if you could call it that --- for hating the Titans; in his mind, his eldest son was dead because of them. If the Titans hadn't existed, he reasoned to himself at the time, his son might have lived. That was fatherly grief and rage fueling him throughout his initial interactions with the Titans, not just a cold-blooded merc wanting to get paid; he wasn't even interested in the Titans until his son died in battle with them.

Also, the more accurate term is "anti-villain," which is an antagonist that stops short of being a full-out villain due to possessing some sense of morality, even if distorted, that occasionally drives him or her toward actions that would be considered "good" if it were a hero doing them. Or, if you see the story from his point of view, he's more of a "tragic hero," which is a literary and theatrical term for a character whose downfall is entirely owed to weaknesses and flaws in his or her own character. For the record, "anti-villain" or "tragic hero" is closer to what Slade was under the penmanship of Marv Wolfman, whereas your interpretation is what the current editorial regime and head writers at DC seem to believe is the accurate one.

If you want to believe Slade's pure evil, that's your right and you're entitled to that opinion. Just bear in mind that that's not necessarily what his creator had in mind, and "pure evil" Slade is simply what we've been force-fed by writers who don't get that nobody fits squarely into "good people" or "Death Eaters," to borrow a Harry Potter example.

[Agentum]

Batman has no chance really, Deathstroke is beyond him in most cases.

And i like a villian like him, that can change sides just because it suits him better fpr the moment.

DS is a very good villian, he i s the base of Marvels Deadpool, he was something special when he showed up in New Teen Titans in the earley 80s, you can't forsee what he is going to do.

I even liked his own book that was published for a while, and i love when he fooled idiots like Hal Jordan and such characters that is about as deep as a ordinary stamp or something.

I LIKE DEATHSTROKE EOD.

So don't get rid of him.
He is not pure evil he is a mercenary, and when there is no money in it he can be more or less perfectly normal.

Don't people have favorites in teh bad guy department? i mean joker, 2 face braniac etc. they are always evil, whats the fun of that?

[Tanjint]

I never really got to fully explain myself once I said "I'm good" but since the topic's been resurrected....

I made this post because I was reading and watching a lot of Titans at the time and it just felt like these stories didn't even exist in the same UNIVERSE as the Justice League. I was just astounded at some of the shit he was pulling, how miserable he was making them with no one outside the Titans even noticing.

Reading the Batfamily fight him in IC and the panels people showed me, I was satisfied because in my mind it was like 'OK, I can accept this now....he DOES exist in the same world as Batman, Supes, JLA...they DO know he needs to be stopped etc."

I just thought Bats and JLA, Supes etc. were SLIPPIN' you know??

Furthermore, Slade FEELS like a Batman villain. He's basically a brilliant MAN....how do we NOT want to see Batman fight that guy all the time? I guess it's cool if he stays a Titans villain, but I think he needs to be a Batman villain more often.

I mean, even the writers of the Titans cartoon felt this way, that's why they distilled the Slade rivalry down to a Slade/Robin thing. It was the closest they could get to pitting him against Bats.

Furthermore, statutory rape is not the same thing as child molestation.

-T

[Calybos]

Terra was a "nutjob" in the sense that she was a sociopath. Sociopath doesn't mean "insane" in legal terms, as in you have no comprehension of right and wrong. Sociopath means you have a mental imbalance that renders you incapable of giving a rat's rear about who you hurt or what laws you break or how much damage you cause so long as you get what you want. That's not insane in the legal sense; that's what we would consider in layman's terms just plain evil.
Marv Wolfman, the writer, SAID she was completely insane. He also wrote that, directly on the comics page itself. The WRITER. No judgment or interpretation required.

Claiming Terra was just "nasty" rather than deranged (and, need I remind you, STILL underage) to justify Slade's molestation is beyond the pale. I think we're done here.

[Tanjint]

Ah, the moral high ground. *SNIFF SNIFF* Can you smell
the smug in the air?

I'm sorry I don't mean to attack you but I just notice people are so prone to acting disgusted with eachother when matters of sex are brought up. Like when you argue about the blue or black cape, it's a matter of taste. But when molestation is the topic, we get furrowed brows and looks of disgust coupled with an "I think we're done here."

Just a western society thing that bugs me...hell, maybe it's all society.


-T

[Xero]

Ah, the moral high ground....Just a western society thing that bugs me...hell, maybe it's all society.
-T

Are you insane? The Slade Wilson character f#ck3d a fifteen year old, there's no poo pooing that no matter what side of the globe you come from.

[RaulTheCat]

Ah, the moral high ground. *SNIFF SNIFF* Can you smell
the smug in the air?

I'm sorry I don't mean to attack you but I just notice people are so prone to acting disgusted with eachother when matters of sex are brought up. Like when you argue about the blue or black cape, it's a matter of taste. But when molestation is the topic, we get furrowed brows and looks of disgust coupled with an "I think we're done here."

Just a western society thing that bugs me...hell, maybe it's all society.


-T

Well, as someone who has never engaged in statutory rape, I'm happy to be labeled as 'smug'.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

We're talking about a group (JLA) who were CAPTURED by adult versions of the Teen Titans. When Blue Beetle frees them, what do they do?

"So sorry, we have another emergency. We trust you guys to handle this yourselves. Toodles!"

They actually lost to the future Titans and upon getting freed decide to just leave their proteges to handle the situation...



A lot of people said similar things to this when that comic came out, but it made perfect sense to me.



If a future version of me is running around, who better to try to catch him than me? I'm the only guy he can't kill or even hurt too badly if he doesn't want it to backfire on him.


If I went to the past, I'd be worried about breathing on my past self, much less harming him in any way, and if I'm more powerful & my past self is smart enough to realize it, then he'd be less likely to pull punches figuring that A: I can take it, and B: even if I can't, if I turn "evil" in the future maybe killing me isn't the worst thing for the world, hero's sacrifice and all that.




I may be in the minority, but I thought the Teen Titans were exactly the team to deal with the Future Titans.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

As for Slade & the topic at hand, they do try to catch & stop him, all the time. It's just that he, like many top tier villians in both Marvel & DC, is just too skilled to be held in any one prison for a long period of time.



Batman, Robin, and Nightwing caught him in Infinite Crisis.

Green Arrow set up an elaborate trap to arrest him OYL as a direct result of his getting away in Identity Crisis.

The JLA tried to catch him in Identity Crisis, he just did things like break GL's knuckles.





Also, the Teen Titans have a pretty good win/loss record against Slade, it's just that like every other bad guy they don't want to kill him b/c they don't think it's right.



Between the old and new Titans, hasn't Deathstroke been plotting against them for like 8 years or so in-story? For the most part, Dick, Kory et. al. are doing just fine, and Deathstroke had nothing to do with any of the younger generation of Titans getting killed(Conner, Bart), the worst he did to the new kids was shoot Bart in the knee & that wasn't even him, it was Jericho gone crazy living in his head.



I don't see the issue here.

[Tequilamokinbrd]

Oh and one more thing, when you're think about people like Lex Luthor, Doomsday, Grodd, Joker pretty much 24/7, you might not be able to give 100% attention to the guy that's been failing at bullying your kids for almost a decade.

[Assassin Spider]

I want to say a few parting words and then leave this thread to others.

To clarify, I define "insanity" in the legal sense, which means that you are so far gone mentally and emotionally that you are incapable of recognizing right and wrong. In layman's terms, "insanity" is just a catch-all term for any kind of behavior provoked by a disordered mental state, but there are myriad facets to "insanity." People can be "wrong in the head" and still have an awareness of basic moral principles, even while choosing to ignore those principles.

In terms of the canon, Terra was an extremely angry, extremely hate-filled young woman that Wolfman and Perez both described as being ultimately irredeemable, at least if you go back and check out archived interviews on the Judas Contract arc. Is it still skeevy that Slade slept with her? Yes, very much so, but in the arguments revolving around that, it has been nearly forgotten that she wanted to kill the Titans just as badly as Slade did, and when Slade appeared to be protecting them (she didn't know he was possessed by Jericho), she turned on him with the same fury that she held for the Titans.

Furthermore, the reason RPG character alignments are patterned on an axis of "good, neutral, evil" and "lawful, neutral, and chaotic" is to reflect the reality that the world is not divided squarely into "black" and "white." In fact, if we're going to believe that Slade is evil after looking at his character development under Marv Wolfman's pen, then we have to call him "neutral evil," which basically means that he just does what he wants, regardless of legal or moral constraints, and that's a double-edged sword because it means he can be an ally or an enemy so long as it serves his purposes at the time. Of course, thanks to Geoff Johns writing of him in Infinite Crisis, he's pretty much gone "chaotic evil," meaning that he's so far gone into revenge and destruction and general badness that he has no room for even the few scruples he had under Wolfman's penmanship.

Of course, that is the fate of many villains and antagonists within long-running comic book universes. Even if they start out with a few leftover remnants of humanity that render them at least sympathetic, after a few years' time, they become standard-issue bad guys lusting after money, power, and revenge on the hero(es). It's sad, but that's the way it is, and with that . . . farewell.

[Joker2503]

Just for the record, Batman has offered Robin, and by extension the rest of the Titans, help several times. And Robin has always refused.

[celticguy]

Deathstroke was a main villan in the last years of the last Green Arrow book.

And isn't he kind of obsessed with the titans. I am not sure how you want him dealt with If you kill all the villians the stroies get really boring.

If Clay face move to Star City I don't think GA would call in Batman.

[Mat001]

Batman and Deathstroke also fought during Chuck Dixon's Detective Comics run. Batman pretty much wins in that one.

In Batman and Deathstroke's first encounter in the latter's title, he won the fight. In the pages of Detective Comics, Deathstroke won the first round by soundly beating the crap out of Batman. It was the second fight, where Batman won using Slade's sniper rifle to bludgeon him.

On the issue of Slade sleeping with Terra, that doesn't make him evil. The act could be considered evil, but that doesn't exactly make him evil. Besides, he breaks the law all the time. But then, so does Batman by pounding on criminals and breaking and entering illegally. If it wasn't against the law, it wouldn't be an issue. That doesn't mean that I'm for it, just pointing out that is what seperates what Slade did from a moral stand point. Morally, it's wrong. Legally, it's wrong. The act could even be considered evil. Does it make Slade evil? Not exactly.

[Calybos]

In a comic-book world, where the lines of good and evil are even more clearly drawn than in our own world... molesting a crazy underage girl doesn't make you evil?

Tell us more of this fascinating argument. I wonder what act WOULD make him evil--parking tickets, perhaps? Jaywalking?

[Assassin Spider]

We might as well close this thread. Why? It's clear that there is a very sharp demarcation between those who think Slade wasn't completely, or at least pointlessly, evil and those who think he's the Antichrist. It's also clear that neither side is willing to give an inch to the other, and certain people on the latter side have even sunk to low-road insults on the character (moral or intellectual) of those on the former side. Ergo, we are not going to get anywhere useful, and some people are even going to get banned for a while if a mod takes notice of the sort of debacle this thread has become. As insulted as I personally feel, I wouldn't want to see anybody here banned for any length of time and there are more constructive ways to expend our valuable time than sniping at each other over a character that DC editorial has already made up its mind about, regardless of how any one of us may feel about him.

Gonna contact a mod to have this closed. Sorry for troubling you all.

[Tanjint]

Just for the record, Batman has offered Robin, and by extension the rest of the Titans, help several times. And Robin has always refused.

thank you. this is the kind of stuff i hope for in a shared universe


-T

[Samy]

Has there ever been an in-universe explanation for why Bats/Supes etc. don't kick the crap out of this dude every time he horrifically murders or mutilates these poor kids?He cons gray so they wouldn't get XP off him.

[Tanjint]

what does conning gray mean? and what is XP?

-T

[pryde15]

what does conning gray mean? and what is XP?

-T

XP- experience.

[Calybos]

And the "cons gray" part?

[Samy]

Don't ask, it was a joke for only those who get it. If you don't get it you wouldn't get it if it's explained. ;)

[atomicturtle]

I wouldn't mind seeing Slade and Shiva get into it one day. That'd be a good fight. 'course, they'd probably end up sleeping together afterwards. But that'd be cool too.

[rick]

Gonna contact a mod to have this closed. Sorry for troubling you all.



Just because you want it closed doesn't mean that's going to happen.


For the record, I've always liked Slade as the anti-Batman he is.

Tough, resourceful, smart and all together too attached to underaged characters.

He's a complete prick, but he's an interesting one.

[Tanjint]

Just because you want it closed doesn't mean that's going to happen.


For the record, I've always liked Slade as the anti-Batman he is.

Tough, resourceful, smart and all together too attached to underaged characters.

He's a complete prick, but he's an interesting one.

agreed, especially considering assassin spider wants to close this thread (1.that he didn't even start) and 2. regarding a debate that isn't even the debate this thread was mainly about.


I was discussing the use of slade in the DCU, whereas assassin spider were heatedly debating the morality of slade. related but different.

-T