What has better writing: Ultimate Spider-Man or Amazing Spider-Man?

[chelseaboy81]

whats a better story the amazing spiderman or ultimate spiderman

[ZT4]

USM's got years of milage left in it, so I'll go with that one. ASM concluded years ago.

[ShaggyB]

USM's got years of milage left in it, so I'll go with that one. ASM concluded years ago.

if you say so, to me Ultimate is a rework and rehash of old plots. Its like ok Venom worked this way abck in the 90s how can we make it different but still capture that story.

Put it this way if you like the way the movie tweaks things to have it work... Youll like Ultimate and how it tweaks characters to "update" them to the "times".

For Me its always felt a bit like ive seen the core all before in ASM. Really depends on if you like the direction of BND or not as to which you should choose.

[Rev. Calibos]

ASM. USM is a great re-telling, ASM is the source.

Things seem grim now with BND but at some point the stories will turn around, they always do.

That's why I find USM so puzzling, if there's great, contemporary Spiderman stories to tell why don't they, oh, I don't know.....tell them in Amazing Spiderman,the centerpiece?

[ZT4]

if you say so, to me Ultimate is a rework and rehash of old plots. Its like ok Venom worked this way abck in the 90s how can we make it different but still capture that story.

It's definatly a migration of old concepts with new ideas and some of them are leaking into things from the mainstream title to the animated series, but generally it's the way forward because Bendis doesnt BS the fans and clearly has a story to tell freed from the consequences of infinite marketing and editorial mandates.

[ShaggyB]

It's definatly a migration of old concepts with new ideas and some of them are leaking into things from the mainstream title to the animated series, but generally it's the way forward because Bendis doesnt BS the fans and clearly has a story to tell freed from the consequences of infinite marketing and editorial mandates.

But that story is a tweaking of one thats been done years ago. Didnt Ultimate just do the Clone thing?

So far the only really new thing ive seen is the pete gets taken over by the venom suit and runs around fighting heroes thats coming soon....

Wait take that back didnt Carnage join with Ben Spidey to do that??

[Joe Acro]

Neither Amazing or Ultimate are a story, but really a series of stories.

Now, we could sit here and have people scream "Ultimate!" and "Amazing!" back and forth all thread long, maybe even with some arguments supporting such claims.

However, if you are really interested in those comics, I suggest you sample them to see which you like better.

[brundlefly]

Led Zeppelin, or a Led Zeppelin cover band? :biggrin: An imperfect metaphor, but you get my drift.

[Otherguy]

as far as i understood the heroes in the ultimate universe are just made free of the looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong background story. that means while in asm something could strike in that happened 200 issues before, it wouldnt happen in ultimate. well it hink its this way.

but i never read ultimate, but i think as longs pete's character is the same its nice.

[ZT4]

Neither Amazing or Ultimate are a story, but really a series of stories.

At a certain point, they are or were...the story is Peter Parker's life, where as Spidey is the series of adventures. USM sort of combines both sometimes since he's hopless at a secret identity:redface:

[Reptisaurus!]

if you say so, to me Ultimate is a rework and rehash of old plots.


Unlike Amazing, which is a staggering cavalcade of creativity, a plethora of completely original ideas and...

*BOOM*

Ah, crap. My sarcasm-o-meter just exploded. Seems the dang thing can't go past ten.

Bottom line: They both basically regurgitate the same characters, themes, and setting that have been used in Spider-man comics for decades upon decades. There's been precious little brand new in either of 'em, since 1966. It's all "Oh. Here's the Vulture. For the one thousand, one hundred, and sevenTEENTH time."

It's like what Charles M. Schulz said about Peanuts (I'm paraphrasing.) A lot of what the audience is looking for is a simple moment of recognition. They want to see Spider-man doing the same kinds of things Spider-man has been doing for decades. (Although some fans prefer the married decades and some fans like the single decades.)

Judged as a whole... Well, Amazing Spider-man has been going a LOT longer than "Ultimate." There've been more great individual issues in "Amazing..." - But a hell of a lot more crap.

Ultimate, until very recently, has kept the same writer and artist, and this gives it a sense of unified story progression that Amazing doesn't have.

So I'd rate Ultimate as a better story because of constancy of storytelling.

Unless you mean the CURRENT, ongoing versions of both. Then I couldn't tell ya, 'cause I'm 90% a "Trades out of the library reader." :)

[The Shadow]

Led Zeppelin, or a Led Zeppelin cover band? :biggrin: An imperfect metaphor, but you get my drift.

I like it!

Agree with it too.

[DeadXMan]

Led Zeppelin, or a Led Zeppelin cover band? :biggrin: An imperfect metaphor, but you get my drift.

Ozzy's Black Sabbath or Dio's Black Sabbath

Van Hanlen or Van Hagar

[phantom1592]

For the longest time, Ultimate has been great, and Amazing has just been dull. Every time I've picked up Amazing, the art sucked, the supporting cast was non existant... It was NOT the spiderman I liked.

Ultimate on the other hand gave spidey personality, an awesome cast, and he "felt" more like "my"spidey than amazing has since the 90's.

Oddly enough... The last 3-5 issues of Ultimate have really dropped off. I'm not sure why getting a new artist makes the quality of the WRITING drop.... but it hasn't been much there. WHile after BND spidey has really picked up for me. They brought back the cast, and gave us a fun pete again.

So in the long run.... I'm not sure which is better. :redface:


Never understood the animosity for Ultimate either? Most of the people who slammed it, never actually read it. Reptisaurus hit the nail on the head. What's more of a rehash, The ultimate Spiderman dating Shadowcat, while Spidergirl is an altered clone of his. The Venom suit being a cure for cancer as opposed to an alien? Or Amazing having Doc Ock break out of jail and swear vengence on Spidey AGAIN. Or someone NEW gets infected with a symbiote!

Just because it says venom or Clone Saga or anything else, doesn't mean its a direct copy. Its always been more like "the movie" adaptation or "smallville" to superman comics.

[Nick MB]

ASM has some great moments, but USM is more consistent, and has been for a much longer time.

[oldschool]

Amazing has much much better writing (with a few exceptions like Howard Mackie's horrid run); I like Bendis a lot but Ultimate just is not a writer's book.....it is a "re-imagining" and is more of a mood piece.

[Gloom Cookie]

Whereas before I liked both of the titles about the same, lately the Ultimate version has been much more entertaining to me.

[Venom]

I like both titles, but Amazing's always had better writing to me. I only collect Ultimate Spider-Man now and again.

[Jim Thompson]

Of late, it's been Ultimate by a country mile.

[Mister Mets]

Ultimate Spider-Man would usually win this one, but the writing in the last eleven issues hasn't been up to par for the series (with the exception of the last issue, which was damn good.) I may just miss Bagley's art, but I didn't think that much of the "Death of a Goblin" story, the Amazing Friends three-parter or the Omega Red one-parter.

[Jim Thompson]

Ultimate Spider-Man would usually win this one, but the writing in the last eleven issues hasn't been up to par for the series (with the exception of the last issue, which was damn good.) I may just miss Bagley's art, but I didn't think that much of the "Death of a Goblin" story, the Amazing Friends three-parter or the Omega Red one-parter.My kids enjoyed all those arcs -- more than they liked the stuff happening in BND right now. Both of them think it what's happening in ASM is just silly.

[AbdulAziz]

I hate how Spider-Man gets unmasked a lot in the Ultimate line, but that doesn't mean the stories are bad. I need to go back to reading Ultimate to judge.

Amazing Spider-Man: I loved the first three arcs of "Brand New Day", the fourth arc is quite boring, the tie in story finishing the Freak issue is GREAT. For the current arcs....: I used to think that 90s comics are bad, now I see them nicely compared to the horrible two new arcs.

[Mister Mets]

My kids enjoyed all those arcs -- more than they liked the stuff happening in BND right now. Both of them think it what's happening in ASM is just silly. Fair enough.

For me, ten straight issues of Ultimate Spider-Man fell into the "It's okay" category (shared by the Bob Gale issues of BND.) Only one issue fell in the "really good" category (shared by the Wells/ Bachalo arc, and two Dan Slott arcs.)

Some of this may be due to the art and not the writing, as I've enjoyed most of the BND artists more than Immonen on Ultimate.

[Jim Thompson]

Some of this may be due to the art and not the writing, as I've enjoyed most of the BND artists more than Immonen on Ultimate.In that, you're running right with my kids. They both say it's taking them a little bit of effort to get used to the new artist, and in truth, I think a change in the creative team, be it the artist, writer or both, can be extremely jarring, particularly after a long successful run.

[Chiasm]

When JMS was still writing Amazing it would have been that book by a mile. Now its Ultimate by a mile despite the complete lack of originality in everything with an Ultimate in front of its name.

[Nick MB]

Amazing has much much better writing (with a few exceptions like Howard Mackie's horrid run); I like Bendis a lot but Ultimate just is not a writer's book.....it is a "re-imagining" and is more of a mood piece.

I don't think you're giving USM enough credit for the writing skill required. It's very easy to just clunk out Ultimate books filled with dull reimaginings of the original characters. It takes real skill and imagination to make it work and seem worthwhile.

[Matt Linton]

For me, it's a bit of apples and oranges. I'd give the edge to Ultimate Spider-Man, but that's because I think Bendis has done a great job of developing his take on Peter Parker and the supporting cast. It has it's ups and downs, but I honestly think it's one of the top 5 books Marvel puts out (along with Captain America, Criminal, Immortal Iron Fist, and Daredevil).

[DeadXMan]

got to go with ASM

it has had Lee, Thomas, Conway,Wein(HAPPY BELATED BIRTHDAY BTW!!)
Wolfman, O'Neil, Stern, DeFalco(until CS), Michelinie, DeMatteis, Straczynski(until the Other or sins past) Gale, Guggenheim, Slott, & Wells.

all USM has had for a writer is Bendes

[ChrisMcCarver]

I'll always be an old-school Spidey fan. That said, however, I've really enjoyed Ultimate Spider-Man over the years. I'll admit Immonen's a bit something to get used to after 100+ issues of Bagley, but USM has rarely disappointed me.

Since I think the OMD-BND derision trend has become a well-beaten horse of late, I'll just say I prefer USM and leave it at that.

[ReggieWhiteJr]

Since I think the OMD-BND derision trend has become a well-beaten horse of late, I'll just say I prefer USM and leave it at that.

Took the words right out of my mouth. USM may not be perfect, but I still think the title is written better than what I've seen in ASM the last 6 months.

[Euchre0]

Most of you seem to be talking premise, not necessarily writing. Without hyperbole, the writing in Ultimate Spider-Man has been undoubtedly better than Amazing Spider-Man. I love Amazing Spider-Man and have more issues of it than any other title, Bendis is a better writer and story teller than what we've seen on Amazing in years, if not decades. I'd wish for Bendis to write the Amazing title, but then he wouldn't be writing Ultimate, and I couldn't ask for such a sad thing to occur.

[gorthon616]

Most of you seem to be talking premise, not necessarily writing. Without hyperbole, the writing in Ultimate Spider-Man has been undoubtedly better than Amazing Spider-Man. I love Amazing Spider-Man and have more issues of it than any other title, Bendis is a better writer and story teller than what we've seen on Amazing in years, if not decades. I'd wish for Bendis to write the Amazing title, but then he wouldn't be writing Ultimate, and I couldn't ask for such a sad thing to occur.

I've always found Ultimate to be mediocre. Granted at times thats way beyond what you get on Amazing, but Bendis's Ultimate Spider-Man has never really wowed me beyond the initial infatuation. I think he's been the best sustainable writer on Spider-Man since the very beginning however. Every other Spider-Man writers has to have their "SPIDER-MAN WILL NEVER BE THE SAME" story and they ALWAYS SUCK. I give Bendis credit that regardless of the highs or the lows he's never tarnished Ultimate Spider-Man the same way that nearly every other Spider-Man writer ends up tarnishing Amazing Spider-Man.

[Alan2099]

I hate Bendis's work. Always have. His Spider-man just really comes across as annoying to me and he doesn't seem to treat the villians with any real respect, he'sabout as decompressed as you can get, often with several issues going by without anything really feeling like it's happening and his dialog is attrocious.

I can't think of a single Spider-man creative time I've liked less.

[Reptisaurus!]

and his dialog is attrocious.


Meanwhile, in the REAL world...

No. No it isn't.

When JMS was still writing Amazing it would have been that book by a mile. Now its Ultimate by a mile despite the complete lack of originality in everything with an Ultimate in front of its name.

Or, for that matter, pretty much every Marvel comic without an Ultimate name in front.

Although, certainly, JMS' take was an exception. I'm not sure it worked, exactly, but it was certainly a unique and creative approach to the material.

[Alan2099]

Meanwhile, in the REAL world...

No. No it isn't.
Hey, if you like characters to ramble on incoherantly, repate each other setences as questions, and all talk with the exact same speach patterns, more power to you.

[Matt Linton]

So, do you also dislike Aaron Sorkin, David Mamet, Quentin Tarantino, and Kevin Smith?

[Alan2099]

I don't even know who those first two are.

[Matt Linton]

Aaron Sorkin: Creator and main writer of Sports Night, The West Wing, and Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, along with the films An American President and A Few Good Men.

In 1989 Sorkin won an Outer Critics Circle Award for Outstanding American Playwright for his stageplay A Few Good Men. Three years later the feature film A Few Good Men earned Sorkin a nomination for a Golden Globe for Best Screenplay. The feature film Malice earned him a nomination for an Edgar award for Best Motion Picture Screenplay from the Mystery Writers of America. In 1996 Sorkin was nominated for another Golden Globe award for Best Screenplay for The American President.[46]

Sorkin won three Humanitas Prizes for episodes of Sports Night (1999) and The West Wing (2000, 2002). He was nominated for 6 Emmy Awards for writing on Sports Night and The West Wing and shared an Emmy with writer Rick Cleveland for Outstanding Writing for a Drama Series in 2000 for The West Wing episode "In Excelsis Deo". He has also been nominated for WGA awards, TCA awards, and PGA Golden Laurel awards for his writing on Sports Night and The West Wing winning three PGA Golden Laurel awards and one WGA award.

In 2001, Sorkin was named Writer of the Year by the Caucus for TV Producers, Writers and Directors. The same year, he received from his alma mater Syracuse University the George Arents Pioneer Medal.[78]

Bendis' dialogue is very reminiscent of Sorkins' stylistically conversational dialogue.

David Mamet: Playwright and filmmaker who wrote The Postman Always Rings Twice, The Verdict, About Last Night, Wag the Dog, The Spanish Prisoner, Ronin, Heist, and State and Main.

An example of his dialogue, from the play and film Glengarry, Glen Ross
One classic instance of Mamet's dialogue style can be found in Glengarry Glen Ross, in which two down-on-their-luck realtors are considering breaking into their employer's office to steal a list of good leads. George Aaronow and Dave Moss finagle the meaning of "talk" and "speak", steeped in fraudulent connivance of the language and meaning:

Moss No. What do you mean? Have I talked to him about this [Pause]
Aaronow Yes. I mean are you actually talking about this, or are we just...
Moss No, we're just...
Aaronow We're just "talking" about it.
Moss We're just speaking about it. [Pause] As an idea.
Aaronow As an idea.
Moss Yes.
Aaronow We're not actually talking about it.
Moss No.
Aaronow Talking about it as a...
Moss No.
Aaronow As a robbery.
Moss As a "robbery"? No.

As a playwright, he received Tony nominations for Glengarry Glen Ross (1984) and Speed-the-Plow (1988). As a screenwriter, he received Oscar nominations for The Verdict (1982) and Wag the Dog (1997).

A big influence on Bendis

Oh, and Bendis has won 5 Eisner awards, so he's no slouch, himself.

Best Continuing Series 2003: Daredevil
Best New Series 2001: Powers
Best Writer 2002 AND 2003: Powers, Alias, Daredevil, and Ultimate Spider-Man
Talent Deserving of Wider Recognition 1999 for Jinx, Goldfish, and Torso.

[Alan2099]

Aaron Sorkin: Creator and main writer of Sports Night, The West Wing, and Studio 60 on the Sunset Strip, along with the films An American President and A Few Good Men.

Never watched any of those.

David Mamet: Playwright and filmmaker who wrote The Postman Always Rings Twice, The Verdict, About Last Night, Wag the Dog, The Spanish Prisoner, Ronin, Heist, and State and Main.
I saw Wag the Dog. That wasn't a bad movie. None of the others though.

One classic instance of Mamet's dialogue style can be found in Glengarry Glen Ross, in which two down-on-their-luck realtors are considering breaking into their employer's office to steal a list of good leads. George Aaronow and Dave Moss finagle the meaning of "talk" and "speak", steeped in fraudulent connivance of the language and meaning:

Moss No. What do you mean? Have I talked to him about this [Pause]
Aaronow Yes. I mean are you actually talking about this, or are we just...
Moss No, we're just...
Aaronow We're just "talking" about it.
Moss We're just speaking about it. [Pause] As an idea.
Aaronow As an idea.
Moss Yes.
Aaronow We're not actually talking about it.
Moss No.
Aaronow Talking about it as a...
Moss No.
Aaronow As a robbery.
Moss As a "robbery"? No.
If you're trying to say that's good dialog, I couldn't disagree with you more. I don't care how many people that sit around giving awards to movies and stories that everyone says are so powerful and dramatic and that nobody actually really likes disagree with me on this. That dialog sucks.

I will say this in Bendis's favor. Powers was pretty decent. Of course they say even a blind squirrel can find a nut every now and then.

[Reptisaurus!]

Hey, if you like characters to ramble on incoherantly,


Please cite examples, specific issue and page number, of "incoherent" dialog.

I pay one HELL of a lotta attention to the way writers define characters, and, well, I read a lot of comics. Never had a problem following Bendis' dialog.


repate each other setences as questions,


A stylistic tic, used exactly once (More or less. I counted very quickly) in the thirty issues of Bendis' Daredevil I ave in front of me, does not make for bad dialog.

and all talk with the exact same speach patterns, more power to you.

And, hey, a valid complaint. I am, honestly, somewhat impressed.

There is a lot of similarity in both speech rhythm and word choice between Bendis' characters, which robs 'em of definition - And one of the big purposes of dialog is to define character.

Of course, that doesn't counter his skill at using dialog to drive plot, and creating aesthetically effective rhythmic dialog... Look at what he does with long and short sentences. (The "long and short sentence' thing might sound stupid. It's not. It's the basic tool for creating rhythmically effective prose.)

And, well, he does the one character monologue as well as anyone working in comics, like, ever.

And it IS a different kind of comic dialog, and it's been vastly influential. I basically look at comics as a spectrum, starting as illustrated pulp novels in the golden age and moving towards movies on paper today. Bendis' stuff is much more influenced by film and stage style dialog than traditional comic style writing.

(Note: Not a value judgement. I loves me some good pulp writing, and I honestly have no preference for one kind of writing over the other.)

But he does it well enough that other, professional writers, have noticed and incorporated some of his tricks - Which is what makes 'em professionals. They can realize when something is done well and adapt it to their own style, and not be all "Man! Here is a stylistic tic I personally find somewhat annoying! He is the WORST SUPER SUCKIEST MOST TERRIBLEST WRITER EVER AND I HATE HIM!"

Which means you go around hating everything and looking kind of stupid to anyone who knows what they're talking about.

But hey, if being angry and looking dumb is your thing, more power to you. Have fun with that.

[brundlefly]

I don't even know who those first two are.

No surprise. Bendis' career has benefited immensely from the fact that the majority of comicbook fans don't know who Mamet or Sorkin are, either. :biggrin:

[Matt Linton]

No surprise. Bendis' career has benefited immensely from the fact that the majority of comicbook fans don't know who Mamet or Sorkin are, either. :biggrin:

I was a fan of both Mamet (based on Glengarry Glen Ross) and Sorkin (the late, great Sports Night) before I'd read a single Bendis comic. One thing I like about Bendis is that he's adapted the type of rhythmic dialogue that both Mamet and Sorkin excel at into comics, basically replacing the old school expositional/declarative dialogue from before.

And Bendis has never made a secret of the fact that he's hugely influenced by both men.

[desanth]

I think USM is better, simply because I haven't read an ASM that has been interesting in years. I like Bendis' dialogue, its not confusing at all, I get it :biggrin: and it works well.

Oh and I've been turned off by Immonem's art, that's the reason I think that my interest has lowered in USM since Bagley left. Still, I collect them.

Why oh why is there no poll? I never understand these threads that ask what was better, who was better, etc that can have a quantitative answer as well as qualitative ones.