Spider-Man's Rookie Mistakes?

[carabas]

I don't know how'd he'd answer, but it seems to me USM Spidey is much better at making moral decisions than the BND Spidey. He makes mistakes, but they are not the same sort of mistakes the BND Spidey seems to make. His mistakes are made through inexperience, as opposed to just not seeing how his actions will ultimately hurt someone.

End of the day, the USM seems a lot less selfish and a lot more adult than the BND Spidey, to me anyway.That is pretty much it.

Ultimate Spidey and pre-OMD Spidey are strong character who have already made their rookie listakes and learned from them. They know that using powers fo monetairy gain is iffy at best. They have a moral compass. And married or not, they have a soulmate in MJ. They may be a dick from time to time, but this comes from an overdeveloped sense of responsability rather than greed lust or whatever. This may be not what he started out as in the sixties and seventies, but it is what the character had been for well over a decade.
Pre-OMD Spidey was proud to be an Avenger. Ultimate Spidey is one of only three characters willing to get into Nick Fury's face and telling him what's what when he's wrong (the other two being Wolverine and Captain America).

I can't really see post-OMD Spidey being allowed anywhere near the Avengers tower, the way he heaps rookie mistake on rookie mistake (not to mention the odd secret identity memory loss).

[carabas]

I don't know how'd he'd answer, but it seems to me USM Spidey is much better at making moral decisions than the BND Spidey. He makes mistakes, but they are not the same sort of mistakes the BND Spidey seems to make. His mistakes are made through inexperience, as opposed to just not seeing how his actions will ultimately hurt someone.

End of the day, the USM seems a lot less selfish and a lot more adult than the BND Spidey, to me anyway.That is pretty much it.

Ultimate Spidey and pre-OMD Spidey are strong character who have already made their rookie listakes and learned from them. They know that using powers fo monetairy gain is iffy at best. They have a moral compass. And married or not, they have a soulmate in MJ. They may be a dick from time to time, but this comes from an overdeveloped sense of responsability rather than greed lust or whatever. This may be not what he started out as in the sixties and seventies, but it is what the character had been for well over a decade.
Pre-OMD Spidey was proud to be an Avenger. Ultimate Spidey is one of only three characters willing to get into Nick Fury's face and telling him what's what when he's wrong (the other two being Wolverine and Captain America).

I can't really see post-OMD Spidey being allowed anywhere near the Avengers tower, the way he heaps rookie mistake on rookie mistake (not to mention the odd secret identity memory loss).

[The Shadow]

They may be a dick from time to time, but this comes from an overdeveloped sense of responsability rather than greed lust or whatever.

Sounds like the 616 Spidey who sacrificed his personal happiness out of an overdeveloped sense of responsibility rather than greed lust or whatever :cool:

the way he heaps rookie mistake on rookie mistake
Maybe we're reading different comics... what rookie mistakes?

[Jim Thompson]

Sounds like the 616 Spidey who sacrificed his personal happiness out of an overdeveloped sense of responsibility rather than greed lust or whatever People keep saying this, but I'll be blunt and say the BND Spider-Man doesn't seem particularly unhappy. He's not happy, either, I'll grant you. What he seems, as much as anything else, is shallow. It's like I'm reading about a silhouette, a caricature of the character I have been reading for 35 years.

Maybe we're reading different comics... what rookie mistakes?Inducing another heart attack in JJJ by visiting him in the hospital in costume, and then telling him he'd lost his paper; having to go through an entire arc before realizing being a paparazzi is a bad thing; standing on the sidelines while the cops tried to kill Freak (are you kidding me? Spider-Man watching someone get killed without trying to stop it?). Things like that.

[carabas]

Maybe we're reading different comics... what rookie mistakes?Losing a web shooter, having trouble getting it back from a noname regular mugger, playing paparazzi, giving Mr. Negative a blood sample, losing a spider tracer on a corps...

[DeadXMan]

Losing a web shooter, having trouble getting it back from a noname regular mugger, playing paparazzi, giving Mr. Negative a blood sample, losing a spider tracer on a corps...



he didn't lose it, it was Stolen. and he had to let the guy mug him cause he was pointing the gun at Carie at point blank range.

as Peter Parker he had trouble, if he didn't try to put the Screws to JJ and dawn the red and blue he would of gotten him

he realized the error of his ways and denounced the paparazzi ways and got fired for it.

give Mr Neg your blood sample or watch him blow a kid's head off what would you of chosen?


when did he lose a tacer on a Marine? I think your mixing in a slash fiction with the real comics

[carabas]

he didn't lose it, it was Stolen.Potato/potahto. Having it stolen does not exactly put BND Spidey in a better light.

and he had to let the guy mug him cause he was pointing the gun at Carie at point blank rangeStill doesn't seem like something that ought to happen to a veteran superhero. Doesn't he have some sort of special sense that helps to avoid him getting onto such situations?

as Peter Parker he had trouble, if he didn't try to put the Screws to JJ and dawn the red and blue he would of gotten himThat's just a really stupid excuse for doing a Spidey-with-one-webshooter story.

he realized the error of his ways and denounced the paparazzi ways and got fired for it.Well, that's nice, but by now he ought to be clever enough to figure that out before taking that job.

give Mr Neg your blood sample or watch him blow a kid's head off what would you of chosen?Door #3 please. Disarm Negative, save the hostage, and don't give up the blood sample that can be turned into a poison that genetaically targets you and your entire family. Peter acted like he'd never faced an opponent with a gun and a hostage before.

when did he lose a tacer on a Marine? I think your mixing in a slash fiction with the real comicsThey have female marine nowadays... What's a tacer by the way?

[Tobias Drake]

Door #3 please. Disarm Negative, save the hostage, and don't give up the blood sample that can be turned into a poison that genetaically targets you and your entire family. Peter acted like he'd never faced an opponent with a gun and a hostage before.

And when you fail and the kid dies because you made a rookie mistake, what then? It takes more muscles to disarm a person than it does to pull a trigger. Now, if you're ruthless, Negative is a threat to more than just the kid, and one life does not outweigh all the other lives that Negative will endanger if he is not neutralized right now, consequences be damned. But Spider-Man isn't ruthless. He is physically incapable of making a decision that he knows will result in a person's death.

[carabas]

And when you fail and the kid dies because you made a rookie mistake, what then? It takes more muscles to disarm a person than it does to pull a trigger. Now, if you're ruthless, Negative is a threat to more than just the kid, and one life does not outweigh all the other lives that Negative will endanger if he is not neutralized right now, consequences be damned. But Spider-Man isn't ruthless. He is physically incapable of making a decision that he knows will result in a person's death.In the past, Spider-Man has solved countles similar situations without giving the villain what he wanted, and then letting him get away.

[Mister Mets]

In the past, Spider-Man has solved countles similar situations without giving the villain what he wanted, and then letting him get away.Except he hasn't done that a hundred percent of the time.

Sometimes he solved the situation perfectly. But much of the time, the villain got away, with whatever he/ she wanted.

[DeadXMan]

Potato/potahto. Having it stolen does not exactly put BND Spidey in a better light.

Still doesn't seem like something that ought to happen to a veteran superhero. Doesn't he have some sort of special sense that helps to avoid him getting onto such situations?

That's just a really stupid excuse for doing a Spidey-with-one-webshooter story.

Well, that's nice, but by now he ought to be clever enough to figure that out before taking that job.

Door #3 please. Disarm Negative, save the hostage, and don't give up the blood sample that can be turned into a poison that genetaically targets you and your entire family. Peter acted like he'd never faced an opponent with a gun and a hostage before.



Not letting a person get killed is a stuipd excuse?


Hw? he was 30 feet away, no webs and the barrel was next to the kids temple.
the second Pete moved an inch the kid would be dead.

[The Shadow]

Hw? he was 30 feet away, no webs and the barrel was next to the kids temple.
the second Pete moved an inch the kid would be dead.

Pshaw... Peter should have been able to do that :rolleyes:

On a more serious note, I would like to hear from someone how Peter could have solved that particular problem without the kid getting shot.

[Jim Thompson]

Pshaw... Peter should have been able to do that :rolleyes:

On a more serious note, I would like to hear from someone how Peter could have solved that particular problem without the kid getting shot.Y'know, Spider-Man used to be about 50 times faster than any normal person. By the time the criminal realized Spidey had made his move, it'd be over and done with.

[Mister Mets]

Y'know, Spider-Man used to be about 50 times faster than any normal person. By the time the criminal realized Spidey had made his move, it'd be over and done with. From 30 feet away without any webshooters?

Plus, I presume that Mister Negative's faster than the normal person.

Now that I think about it, where is it said that Spider-man's 50 times faster than any normal person? How does that work out? Is this just his reaction time, or his physical speed?

[Jim Thompson]

From 30 feet away without any webshooters?

Plus, I presume that Mister Negative's faster than the normal person.

Now that I think about it, where is it said that Spider-man's 50 times faster than any normal person? How does that work out? Is this just his reaction time, or his physical speed?Right off the Marvel website:

Powers:
Peter can cling to most surfaces, has superhuman strength (able to lift 10 tons optimally) and is roughly 15 times more agile than a regular human. The combination of his acrobatic leaps and web-slinging enables him to travel rapidly from place to place. His spider-sense provides an early warning detection system linked with his superhuman kinesthetics, enabling him the ability to evade most any injury, provided he doesn't cognitively override the autonomic reflexes.

[Mister Mets]

Right off the Marvel website:
15 times more agile isn't the same as 50 times faster, and it won't help Spider-Man travel 30 feet before the bad guy can pull the trigger.

[Jim Thompson]

15 times more agile isn't the same as 50 times faster, and it won't help Spider-Man travel 30 feet before the bad guy can pull the trigger.Oh, please. How many times has Spidey saved himself or someone else due solely to his speed? He's not quicksilver, but he sure as heck has demonstrated the ability to cover great distances in the blink of an eye.

[The Shadow]

Oh, please. How many times has Spidey saved himself or someone else due solely to his speed? He's not quicksilver, but he sure as heck has demonstrated the ability to cover great distances in the blink of an eye.

How far away is a distance Spidey couldn't have traveled to satisfy this nitpick? 35 feet? 40? 50?

He has to be beatable at some point or else they might as well put a big red S on his chest and call him Superman (when the copyright expires anyway).

With his spider sense he should never get hit but there are PLENTY of issues where he takes a beating. His strength has varied depending on the issue as has his intellect.

You seem to be holding these BND comics to a higher standard than in the past if you can suspend your disbelief for some things that happened prior to BND but not others occurring now.

[DeadXMan]

that's his spidey sence they are taking about which would be reation time

as for stright up running I'll say he on with Cap.

I don't know where you go 50X times faster but that would make him faster then quicksilver.

[Sonicjuce]

While I'd agree that at times he does seem a rookie I wold disagree with your entire argument. I would say it is more his thoughts at times that seem out of place. I do think being a paparazzi was a little odd, but in my mind that is what he has always done for Spider-Man in theory. He just took it a little further.

Having said all that the argument about the gun to the child's head seems very tedious. It's a comic book people...

[Jim Thompson]

How far away is a distance Spidey couldn't have traveled to satisfy this nitpick? 35 feet? 40? 50?

He has to be beatable at some point or else they might as well put a big red S on his chest and call him Superman (when the copyright expires anyway).

With his spider sense he should never get hit but there are PLENTY of issues where he takes a beating. His strength has varied depending on the issue as has his intellect.

You seem to be holding these BND comics to a higher standard than in the past if you can suspend your disbelief for some things that happened prior to BND but not others occurring now.Perhaps -- or perhaps I'm just not giving BND the courtesy of ignoring all the inconsistencies her fans seem more than willing to overlook. :biggrin:

[The Shadow]

Perhaps -- or perhaps I'm just not giving BND the courtesy of ignoring all the inconsistencies her fans seem more than willing to overlook. :biggrin:

So how far would be "acceptable" for him to not save the kid no matter how experienced or fast he is?

And inconsistencies? The whole of Spider-Man's publishing history is littered with inconsistencies.

[Tobias Drake]

Oh, please. How many times has Spidey saved himself or someone else due solely to his speed? He's not quicksilver, but he sure as heck has demonstrated the ability to cover great distances in the blink of an eye.

I think you sorely overestimate the amount of time it would take to move a trigger finger a fraction of an inch.

[Jim Thompson]

I think you sorely overestimate the amount of time it would take to move a trigger finger a fraction of an inch.I think I'm a former cop and a current soldier; believe me when I say I have an appreciation for how quickly a trigger can be pulled. But I've been reading Spidey forever, and he's quick enough (historically) to disarm someone before they pull the trigger. You can make an argument he doesn't trust himself to execute (which would explain why he acted as he did with Mr. Negative), but he's physically capable of doing it.

[Jim Thompson]

So how far would be "acceptable" for him to not save the kid no matter how experienced or fast he is?Considerably more than 30 feet (which is actually a much greater distance than Spider-Man seemed to be from Mr. Negative).

And inconsistencies? The whole of Spider-Man's publishing history is littered with inconsistencies.Agreed, but does that mean you should just overlook them whenever you find them? You must have loved Mackie's run!

Inconsistencies are always going to be present in long-term serialized fiction. Having said that, poor plotting and writing make them more noticable, and that's what I feel ASM is generally suffering through right now.

[Tobias Drake]

I think I'm a former cop and a current soldier; believe me when I say I have an appreciation for how quickly a trigger can be pulled.

Then you should be able to appreciate that just because there is a chance that if you take the shot, it won't get the hostage killed, doesn't necessarily mean that you should.

[carabas]

BND supporters have given a lot of explanations/excuses (some excellent, others not quite) for Spider-Man's recent rookie-like behaviour.

But that is not the point. I suppose it is hard to keep a secret identity and avoiding a mugging at the same time. Disarming a villain at (less than) 30 feet is a though call without web shooters.
But that is beside the point. The point is that Spider-Man is fictional character, controlled only by his writers. And all of a sudden, his writers have chosen to repeatedly put him in lose/lose situations that make him seem like an ineffectual rookie rather than a veteran who's been doing this for over a decade.

[B. Kuwanger]

I know full well it's going to take more than a threadful of posts to convince anyone of anything when it comes to a character they've probably been reading for decades, so I'm not gonna try. It's all just "your Spidey vs my Spidey," "my Spidey" being what I think is more of the same from the old school stories. Honestly, I hadn't read the JMS stories. Regardless of how seasoned his character was, what had stopped me from getting into it was the actual writing. If the reverse were true I'd just feel like a nitpicker. I wouldn't take away from the big picture because of something small and interpretive.

[XbrandonX (NF straight edge)]

Oh, please. How many times has Spidey saved himself or someone else due solely to his speed? He's not quicksilver, but he sure as heck has demonstrated the ability to cover great distances in the blink of an eye.

backed..... spider man dodges tons of stuff right quick.

and pertaining to the bnd and usm making mistakes.... bnd spiderman seems to have a worse time with things, like in bnd he gets mugged and stuff and things just dont turn out well for him, so to me its more understandable that he would make more mistakes.

[DeadXMan]

when have thing ever gone well for Spiedy?

[ReggieWhiteJr]

How about the fact that he couldn't catch a common thug in the first 3 arcs? I know he was out of action for a while but he still shouldn't have a problem with street level thugs.

[Jim Thompson]

when have thing ever gone well for Spiedy?I think "things going well" and making rookie mistakes are two separate and distinct things. Parker having spider powers has always been a burden, this is true -- but he hasn't always been this amateurish when using those powers.

[DeadXMan]

How about the fact that he couldn't catch a common thug in the first 3 arcs? I know he was out of action for a while but he still shouldn't have a problem with street level thugs.

which thug?

the mugger? he was killed in the first arc.

Freak?
he caught him it just the power of nudity overwhelms spidey powers

screwball? she turned herself in after he hit her with a tracer, he caught her the second time.

[Jim Thompson]

Freak?
he caught him it just the power of nudity overwhelms spidey powersWow. I guess I need to read up on Spider-Man's weaknesses again! If only Doc Ock knew all he had to do was strip to beat Spidey! :rolleyes:

[DeadXMan]

Lord knows, I would welcome death's sweet embrace if that Ock did that to me.:eek: