How do you feel about DC's reconstruction of the universe?

[Colossus77]

I haven't read much of DC but from what I understand Crisis, Zero Hour and at least two other events have drastically retconned the DCU. When Marvel did something similar with Spider-Man (the clone saga and Brand New Day) fans were upset and a large number of them left the book.

What kind of reaction does DC get from its fans when they do something like this?

[Jack Zodiac]

Not too bad, I guess. The difference between Marvel and DC is that when DC does an overhaul like that, they go full-tilt universal retconning, wiping the slate almost completely clean for every character, not just one or two. Marvel's a much younger universe, and they try to keep as much of their forty-five year continuity together as they can, even while overhauling their flagship titles and headline characters as often as they can to keep them from feeling too old.

[Ghost Shark]

It's not the retcons that get me, it's what the companies do with the opportunities presented that usually wind up annoying me.

IIRC, the original plan was for the DC Universe to start over from scratch after COIE. I wish they'd done that.

[Zero Hunter]

Yeah I think that was the biggest problem with the original Crisis was the screwed up reboot. I mean Superman and Wonder Women both started from scratch after Crisis but Batman, Flash, and most of the others didn't. If they were going to start some over they should have gone all the way and done them all with a clean slate.

[Will.S]

I think so far they've done a good job with Superman since nothing as of yet seems to be inconsistent and same for the Green Lantern books. I'm not as knowledgeable on the Wonder Woman stuff but they seemed to have kept things relatively simple with her. Batman's side of the pool on the other hand has gotten a bit more confusing with the Spoiler stuff and the Ra's Al Ghul story.

Marvel's a much younger universe, and they try to keep as much of their forty-five year continuity together as they can, even while overhauling their flagship titles and headline characters as often as they can to keep them from feeling too old.
I honestly don't think Marvel's universe is that much younger concerning their character history given that Human Torch and Namor debuted one year apart from Superman in 1939 and Captain America was in 1941. But Marvel as a company certainly started it's big bang in the 60's and their sliding time line is an interesting way of doing things without a DC style reboot.

[Jack Zodiac]

Nah, Human Torch, Namor, and even Captain America were footnotes before Marvel decided to create their spanning universe. You're not going to find very much in their universe today that predated the Lee/Kirby team. Most DC characters have at least twenty-five years of continuity on Marvel characters, and it gets sticky trying to do a rolling timeline like Marvel when a lot of your characters are war-heroes. At least all Marvel has to do is wriggle its way around Vietnam.

[CBikle]

I think so far they've done a good job with Superman since nothing as of yet seems to be inconsistent and same for the Green Lantern books. I'm not as knowledgeable on the Wonder Woman stuff but they seemed to have kept things relatively simple with her. Batman's side of the pool on the other hand has gotten a bit more confusing with the Spoiler stuff and the Ra's Al Ghul story.


I honestly don't think Marvel's universe is that much younger concerning their character history given that Human Torch and Namor debuted one year apart from Superman in 1939 and Captain America was in 1941. But Marvel as a company certainly started it's big bang in the 60's and their sliding time line is an interesting way of doing things without a DC style reboot.

DC uses the same sliding scale, except I believe that their's goes back 12 years, compared to Marvel's 7 year scale.

Also, regarding DC continuity, I think the unofficial rule is that most Pre-COIE stories have happened (with some cosmetic changes, ie: the 2 Flashes first met while fighting Vandal Savage, but there's no multiple-Earth angle) unless contradicted by a newer story.

[Will.S]

Nah, Human Torch, Namor, and even Captain America were footnotes before Marvel decided to create their spanning universe. You're not going to find very much in their universe today that predated the Lee/Kirby team. Most DC characters have at least twenty-five years of continuity on Marvel characters, and it gets sticky trying to do a rolling timeline like Marvel when a lot of your characters are war-heroes. At least all Marvel has to do is wriggle its way around Vietnam.
Well on top of Cap, Namor, and Human Torch there are the Twelve characters that JMS has been using which were all created in the 40's which is also the time the JSA and their characters were created.

[Will.S]

Oops, double post.

[Jack Zodiac]

Well on top of Cap, Namor, and Human Torch there are the Twelve characters that JMS has been using which were all created in the 40's which is also the time the JSA and their characters were created.

Which haven't appeared since their first appearances.

The point is, while DC's continuity is bogged down with seventy-plus years of consistent characters and plots, Marvel's only got about forty-something years of consistent continuity to mire itself in. Outsiders of the Invaders, Lee/Kirby-ere Marvel was a completely different machine than the Timely days.

[Will.S]

Which haven't appeared since their first appearances.

The point is, while DC's continuity is bogged down with seventy-plus years of consistent characters and plots, Marvel's only got about forty-something years of consistent continuity to mire itself in. Outsiders of the Invaders, Lee/Kirby-ere Marvel was a completely different machine than the Timely days.
I understand what you're saying in that DC has had a more consistent presence regarding the continuity of their characters but that doesn't mean that the Timely/Atlas stuff doesn't count since that's been a part of Marvel's long history as well.

[Jack Zodiac]

And I'm not disagreeing with you about that. What I'm saying is, the relevance of the Timely days of Marvel's continuity has been practically nil outside of Captain America's existence. That's it. Hell, they even ignored years and years of continuity from Timely when they killed off Bucky and froze Cap. That's how little those years between the late Forties and early Sixties mattered to the Lee/Kirby Marvel continuity, and given it's forty years later, they mean even less than that today. Whereas DC has attempted to salvage more of their seventy-plus years of continuity than Marvel would even bother to.

[IvCNuB4]

"Restruction" isn't a word ....

[Colossus77]

I can see where Marvel's Timely and Atlas stories are not as important to current continuity but I can't compare it to DC's '40s era because I don't know much of it...other than a lot of it has become obselete.

"Restruction" isn't a word ....
lol. I had to look it up. I don't know why I thought this was an actual word.

[jchichuv]

well i think that a new universe would be better, something like ultimate marvel, like a fresh start, for the new readers and not making all the mistakes that they made with the normal dc universe

[Suzanne]

I haven't read Zero Hour, but the remarks I've seen are all venom. I'm biased against it since it royally screwed Hawkman. I remember a mixed reaction to Infinite Crisis and 52's ending. If the DCU (and certain characters in particular) can be restructured in a way that's sensible and a good read, fine. I just hope Final Crisis truely is the last of these sorts of events for a while.

[TROUBLEZ]

I wasn't around for the original Earth 2 but I've read up on it and read some back issues, and my opinion, they never should have had Crisis On Infinite Earths mess up continuity.
The story itself was fun, but merging Earth 1 and 2 in the end just created problems. Having two Earths wasn't that confusing, especially since DC mainly focused on Earth1 anyways (Modern Superman, Batman, JLA etc). Not to mention that the Byrne revamp, while a good shot in the arm for the Superman titles at the time, really messed with Legion and Superboy stories.

But from then on, some writers made the most of it and actually enhanced their stories like Mark Waid on The Flash, bringing in all the speedsters and adding to the mythos.

Zero Hour, also a fun story, also created problems. And with the exception of The Flash #0, all those zero issues sucked. Ex Legends of the Dark Knight wasn't even an origin issue!

And Infinite/Final/Identity Crisises tried too hard to be like the gritty 80 and 90s era.

It seems like creating bigger mini series and events to sort out continuity just muddies them more. DC should just be like "screw it," and every 10 or 15 years do another #0 issue vol. 2 or 3 for characters with problematic continuities like Superman, JLA, JSA or the Legion, and just use that one issue to explain the new status quo if need be. I mean it's been 20 years since the original Crisis and just now is the Legion's origin with Superboy getting reconciled.

[Ghost Shark]

I mean it's been 20 years since the original Crisis and just now is the Legion's origin with Superboy getting reconciled.

Actually that was reconciled years ago in Byrne's run. Turns out the Superboy the Legion knew existed only in a pocket dimension created by the Time Trapper as part of a plot to destroy them all. It was only after The Lightning Saga (which followed the retcons of INFINITE CRISIS) that they became part of Superman's past again. I normally despise this sort of no-they-weren't-now-they-are aspect of their shared histories, but Geoff Johns did such a great job with their ACTION appearances I can't stay mad.