Face it... Lex is dry now...

[Shaka]

Am I the only one that thinks the current iteration of Lex Luthor is incredibly dry and uncompelling? I thought after the first Superman-Batman arc and Infinite Crisis DC would really take the gloves off with this character and let him do things he could never do as a business man. Instead we've seen Lex lead the Injustice Gang, which he did in JLA, plot and plan in underground layers as opposed to out in the open in LexCorp and be Libra's lackey. Bring back corporate Lex, this guy adds practically nothing. The cold war between Superman and Lex was more interesting than Lex running around underground layers like a dog.

[brundlefly]

I agree. I was hoping for a more creative and Bond villain-ish approach to fugitive criminal mastermind Lex, with grandiose schemes, plans-within-plans for vengeance against both Supes and Bats, brilliant world-threatening inventions and secret projects, etc. As per usual, we got a change to the status quo but with no proper follow-up instead. The Super Friends-level Legion of Doom nonsense in JLA, the Hackman-Lex campiness of the Zod arc in Action, and the constant wearing of that damn McGuinness-oversized Tinker Toy Action Figure battle armor that always gets destroyed by whoever he faces. Feh. I'm in agreement with you: either use the fugitive mastermind status effectively or return the man to his LexCorp throne already (as it will eventually happen anyway). Both All-Star Supes and JUSTICE did fugitive mastermind Lex effectively, so why can't the main DCU do the same?

[Flash's Lightning]

Am I the only one that thinks the current iteration of Lex Luthor is incredibly dry and uncompelling? I thought after the first Superman-Batman arc and Infinite Crisis DC would really take the gloves off with this character and let him do things he could never do as a business man. Instead we've seen Lex lead the Injustice Gang, which he did in JLA, plot and plan in underground layers as opposed to out in the open in LexCorp and be Libra's lackey. Bring back corporate Lex, this guy adds practically nothing. The cold war between Superman and Lex was more interesting than Lex running around underground layers like a dog.

I agree with what you say.

Give me a Lex who offered a waitress more money than she'll ever see in her life to sleep with him, but then drives off leaving her to wonder what might have been.

Give me the Lex that killed his own foster parents, used the insurance money to start a company, and became a mega billionaire with it.

The Lex Luthor who routinely bribed, killed, and threatened to get what he wanted. Who was caught red handed with so much evidence against him, you'd think not even Jesus Christ could get off if it were he on trial, and yet still managed to get off with no conviction whatsoever. Who arranged a volcano to erupt just to divert Superman's attention from the trial!!!

The Lex who controlled Intergang, and practically controlled Cadmus.

Lex Luthor used to be The Man you didn't *&^% with. Now he's a Dr. Sivana mad scientist wannabe, and I'm finding myself sorely disappointed in his character.

[lonewolf23k]

The only fix for Lex right now would be for some writer to reveal that all of Lex's failed schemes during his fugitive days were just steps in a single, elaborate master plan to put himself back on top...

...Otherwise, he's just ruined.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Lex hasn't been used very well lately, yeah, but I don't see any reason to simply retreat back to the old LexCorp CEO shtick so quickly. There was about twenty years of that version, I don't see any reason to suddenly switch back because not enough good stories have been told yet with the current status quo.

[Tanjint]

agreed, CEO lex is awesome but i can wait for some great super fugitve stuff

and yeah all star supes lex is awesome. haven't read Justice yet though

-T

[TROUBLEZ]

Wow, I thought that most people disliked corporate Lex.

At the time I thought he was alright, but reading now how that version is a like a Kingpin clone, I agree.

But also, the Lex Luthor in his Kenner's Superpowers power suit is kind of stupid looking (except for when Frank Quitely draws it). I didn't know that he's a fugitive now, but I don't think that's reason enough to go back to the CEO only guy.

The best Luthor I've seen is the one in Red Son (Brainiac to Superman in regards to Luthor, "He's a level 8 intellect. He would have talked to you into suicide in 4 minutes." Damn), the All-Star version and Alan Moore's version, thinly disguised as Darius Dax.
Those are good scientist versions of Lex Luthor.

Can't Lex Luthor be a brilliant evil scientist and be a powerful CEO of his own tech/science company with clout?

[Super Buddies Forever]

Here's my thing: Becoming a fugitive supervillain was always the ultimate destination for the CEO Lex. He came close over the years, especially after the Fall of Metropolis, but he always found his way back. Still, you knew that eventually he was going to have to stay down and hate Superman all the more for it. Some great stories could have come out of that.

But instead of naturally building on that history, they've just made him classic Pre-Crisis Lex without earning it. They even stuck him in that ridiculous Kenner costume with the garish color scheme. It just doesn't ring true to the character. He should be mortified at having to ally with the likes of Grodd and Vandal Savage. He's a guy who views himself as a hero, after all. The mentality that he's suddenly buddy buddy with every rogue in the DC Universe just so we can have fifteen iterations of the same Injustice League storyline is a bit disheartening.

Plus, I think it's odd that he seemingly has more resources now then when he was a billionaire. I would have liked to have seen him living with the rats for awhile, slowly building a criminal enterprise that would eventually rival LexCorp in wealth, but not having immediate access to every sci-fi gadget under the sun.

Is it too late to save it? No, but I've seen no indications that any of the writers recognize what a hackjob the characterization of him has been since that initial Superman/Batman arc. The only time he's felt like the true Lex was during 52 when he stepped back into the CEO role. The most immediate thing I'd do, and its purely a cosmetic thing, is to get rid of the green and purple costuming. Lex may be scum, but he's supposed to have style.

[TROUBLEZ]

It just doesn't ring true to the character. He should be mortified at having to ally with the likes of Grodd and Vandal Savage. He's a guy who views himself as a hero, after all. The mentality that he's suddenly buddy buddy with every rogue in the DC Universe just so we can have fifteen iterations of the same Injustice League storyline is a bit disheartening.

The most immediate thing I'd do, and its purely a cosmetic thing, is to get rid of the green and purple costuming. Lex may be scum, but he's supposed to have style.

yeah, exactly.

[TROUBLEZ]

It just doesn't ring true to the character. He should be mortified at having to ally with the likes of Grodd and Vandal Savage. He's a guy who views himself as a hero, after all. The mentality that he's suddenly buddy buddy with every rogue in the DC Universe just so we can have fifteen iterations of the same Injustice League storyline is a bit disheartening.

The most immediate thing I'd do, and its purely a cosmetic thing, is to get rid of the green and purple costuming. Lex may be scum, but he's supposed to have style.

yeah, exactly.

[NotSuper]

Eh, no thanks. Lex and Superman locked in a pointless war which neither of them can win is incredibly bland. Stalemates are usually boring and this is no exception. Eventually, it had to end, as all things must end.

Personally, I like the fact that Superman brought Lex done and achieved an important victory of him. By exposing Lex, Superman won that particular war. But now there's a new war with a different Lex--Lex the supervillain, not Lex the New Age robber baron.

[Bat-Reader]

All star lex is great.

[CMBMOOL]

I agree with what you say.

Give me a Lex who offered a waitress more money than she'll ever see in her life to sleep with him, but then drives off leaving her to wonder what might have been.

Give me the Lex that killed his own foster parents, used the insurance money to start a company, and became a mega billionaire with it.

The Lex Luthor who routinely bribed, killed, and threatened to get what he wanted. Who was caught red handed with so much evidence against him, you'd think not even Jesus Christ could get off if it were he on trial, and yet still managed to get off with no conviction whatsoever. Who arranged a volcano to erupt just to divert Superman's attention from the trial!!!

The Lex who controlled Intergang, and practically controlled Cadmus.

Lex Luthor used to be The Man you didn't *&^% with. Now he's a Dr. Sivana mad scientist wannabe, and I'm finding myself sorely disappointed in his character.

THat may be so, but I always wonder if there were a mixture between the two forms of Lex...Where he can be the CEO of Lexcorp and often tries to be a scientist during his free time. :frown:

[Ghost Shark]

Lex Luthor used to stand out in the crowd, even when that 'crowd' was full of super-intelligent apes, city-shrinking aliens or villains with the power of the Gods.


Now he's just the bald one standing off to the left.

[Zacharius]

Lex Luthor is most overrated villain ever.

Only reason he survived at all because Superman clings to his no-killing code.

Otherwise Luthor would have died the same day Luthor and Supes met.


Superman´s main enemy should be someone who can take Kryptonian speedblitz.

[Spiffy]

He should be mortified at having to ally with the likes of Grodd and Vandal Savage. He's a guy who views himself as a hero, after all. The mentality that he's suddenly buddy buddy with every rogue in the DC Universe just so we can have fifteen iterations of the same Injustice League storyline is a bit disheartening.
Not to mention that in the case of Grodd, he should be DOUBLY horrified, because Lex has always proclaimed himself a "humans first" activist, and working with Grodd should push an awful lot of his buttons.

[Red_Knight]

Superman´s main enemy should be someone who can take Kryptonian speedblitz.

I beg to differ. I am incredibly partial to the "evil twins" in super hero comics, but I don't think I've ever seen an evil twin work as a hero's arch nemesis.

Sure, Venom kicks Spidey's butt every other week, -- but the guy who most effectively threatens Spider-Man on every level imaginable is the Green Goblin.

Batman has had an army of evil twins over the years. He went up against The Wrath, Bane, Hush, Red Hood, and, most recently, the Third Man. All of these characters were interesting (IMHO at least), and all of them served their purpose, but Batman's arch enemy will always remain The Joker.

I think it's much the same with Superman. He,too, has faced many twisted mirrior images of himself: There's Bizarro, Zod (half a million of those, come to think of it...), the Cyborg, the Eradicator, Superman Prime, and the list goes on. In my mind, none of these guys could ever topple Luthor, though. Sure, they can physically beat the crap out of Supes, but if that's what matters most, Doomsday should be his number one villain today. I mean, we've seen Superman battered to the point of (apparent) death already. What more could happen in a simple fight?

What makes Lex so interesting to me is the fact that he can threaten and hurt Superman despite a lack of super powers. We have seen him do that very effectively in the past, and while his character may be neglected right now, I'm sure we'll see him do it again.

Could Superman just go ahead and kill him? Sure, -- effortlessly so. But if Supers ever reaches that breaking point, Lex will have won. If he can hurt the "Big Blue Boy Scout" so deeply that Superman kills him in retribution, Lex will have destroyed not only the man, but the mythos. Unlike, say, The Joker, I'm sure Lex would rather destroy the man and live to tell the tale, but still... he would have won.

Just my two cents.

[Zacharius]

I beg to differ. I am incredibly partial to the "evil twins" in super hero comics, but I don't think I've ever seen an evil twin work as a hero's arch nemesis.

I certainly did not mean Kryptonian copy. There are other heavyweights in that power class. Non-jobber Darkseid, Mongul, etc.

What makes Lex so interesting to me is the fact that he can threaten and hurt Superman despite a lack of super powers. We have seen him do that very effectively in the past, and while his character may be neglected right now, I'm sure we'll see him do it again.



I believe that villain´s stature is proportional to his competence. Consider people like Magneto, Loki and Mandarin. They are always worthy adversaries for X-Men, Thor and Iron Man.

Same would apply if all these heroes decided to act like Punisher.

But Luthor...he lives only as long as Superman is a no-killer.

Superman vs Luthor is always about Superman´s restraint, never about Luthor´s power.

Could Superman just go ahead and kill him? Sure, -- effortlessly so. But if Supers ever reaches that breaking point, Lex will have won. If he can hurt the "Big Blue Boy Scout" so deeply that Superman kills him in retribution, Lex will have destroyed not only the man, but the mythos. Unlike, say, The Joker, I'm sure Lex would rather destroy the man and live to tell the tale, but still... he would have won.


Only thing that rule proves is that Superman is acting like an idiot. His life would much easier if he killed like all the time.

Besides, it would not be a loss for Superman if he is beyond caring. It would be a loss only for the public.

[Spiffy]

Only thing that rule proves is that Superman is acting like an idiot. His life would much easier if he killed like all the time.

Besides, it would not be a loss for Superman if he is beyond caring. It would be a loss only for the public.
Sure his life would be easier. But if he did so he wouldn't be Superman anymore. He'd be Zod.

[CMBMOOL]

Man, remember when Lex was the President and Knew Superman Secret ID, miss chance to destory him...:frown:

[Ontir]

Am I the only one that thinks the current iteration of Lex Luthor is incredibly dry and uncompelling? I thought after the first Superman-Batman arc and Infinite Crisis DC would really take the gloves off with this character and let him do things he could never do as a business man. Instead we've seen Lex lead the Injustice Gang, which he did in JLA, plot and plan in underground layers as opposed to out in the open in LexCorp and be Libra's lackey. Bring back corporate Lex, this guy adds practically nothing. The cold war between Superman and Lex was more interesting than Lex running around underground layers like a dog.

It's lairs, not layers. A "lair" is a secret base, while a "layer" is a part of a cake.

I really liked Corporate Lex, and am sad to see him gone. The idea that he's too smart to be caught gave him a much greater edge.

[brundlefly]

The idea that he's too smart to be caught gave him a much greater edge.

That's the thing, even going forward with the "fugitive mastermind" Lex direction: he is too smart to get caught legally, and at the least well-prepared and resourceful enough to not remain in jail for long if he is arrested, unless he's just waiting patiently on his lawyers to spring him legitimately. The shot of him in the Action Comics Annual stretched out on a prison cot in gen-pop, inferring that he'd been there a while and wasn't going anywhere anytime soon, was baffling in its ridiculousness. It's like seeing Ra's al Ghul or Braniac sitting in stir, with a bunch of petty crooks as their cellmates, and making absolutely no attempt to free themselves. Just an indulgent nod by Johns to Silver Age "prison greys Lex" goofiness and campy Hackman-Lex always ending up back in jail in the Supes movies. His peculiar fetish for that silly interpretation of Lex is my only big complaint about his take on the Superman books so far.

[PatrickG]

It's like seeing Ra's al Ghul or Braniac sitting in stir, with a bunch of petty crooks as their cellmates

I think comics would be better if we got this.

[J. Robb]

Eh, no thanks. Lex and Superman locked in a pointless war which neither of them can win is incredibly bland. Stalemates are usually boring and this is no exception. Eventually, it had to end, as all things must end.
But realistically, they are in a never-ending battle which will never truly end. They were fighting almost 70 years ago and they'll still be fighting in another 70 years. At least the "evil businessman" model had a good reason why Superman couldn't just throw him in jail. With a criminal Luthor at large, it's like the Joker escaping again and again- it makes Superman (and Batman) look ineffective.

Personally, I like the fact that Superman brought Lex done and achieved an important victory of him. By exposing Lex, Superman won that particular war.
I would agree if Superman brought him down. But in the comics, Luthor seemed to go crazy for no particular reason and brought himself down.

[Jack Zodiac]

The best written Lex Luthor in the past two years has been the one who's just been in jail the entire time.

[Flash's Lightning]

What makes Lex so interesting to me is the fact that he can threaten and hurt Superman despite a lack of super powers. We have seen him do that very effectively in the past, and while his character may be neglected right now, I'm sure we'll see him do it again.

Damn skippy! You took the words right out of my mouth.

[Froggy]

The best written Lex Luthor in the past two years has been the one who's just been in jail the entire time.
LEXBOT?!!!!:eek:

[Ontir]

That's the thing, even going forward with the "fugitive mastermind" Lex direction: he is too smart to get caught legally, and at the least well-prepared and resourceful enough to not remain in jail for long if he is arrested, unless he's just waiting patiently on his lawyers to spring him legitimately. The shot of him in the Action Comics Annual stretched out on a prison cot in gen-pop, inferring that he'd been there a while and wasn't going anywhere anytime soon, was baffling in its ridiculousness. It's like seeing Ra's al Ghul or Braniac sitting in stir, with a bunch of petty crooks as their cellmates, and making absolutely no attempt to free themselves. Just an indulgent nod by Johns to Silver Age "prison greys Lex" goofiness and campy Hackman-Lex always ending up back in jail in the Supes movies. His peculiar fetish for that silly interpretation of Lex is my only big complaint about his take on the Superman books so far.

I'd have to agree. As Zodiac said, IIRC, the best Lex this year is Morrison's interpretation in All-Star where he's in prison, but only because it serves his purpose.

[NotSuper]

But realistically, they are in a never-ending battle which will never truly end. They were fighting almost 70 years ago and they'll still be fighting in another 70 years. At least the "evil businessman" model had a good reason why Superman couldn't just throw him in jail. With a criminal Luthor at large, it's like the Joker escaping again and again- it makes Superman (and Batman) look ineffective.
Yeah, but that's different than having Luthor manipulate someone into fighting Superman, Superman stopping them, not being able to connect Luthor with his agent, and then staring at Luthor through a LexCorp window. THAT'S what makes Superman look ineffective. With criminal Luthor, it only makes the authorities look ineffective for not keeping him where Kal put him. It's not Kal's job to imprison HUMAN criminals.

Also, on another note, I don't think Batman looks ineffective for the Joker's escapes either. It's his self-appointed job to save lives, not control the justice system. He can't just execute the Joker or run his own Bat-Jail (tm).

I would agree if Superman brought him down. But in the comics, Luthor seemed to go crazy for no particular reason and brought himself down.
Super-villains usually do sow the seeds of their falls. It was Luthor's obsession with Superman that cost him everything. In that sense, Kal DID bring him down. And he's brought him down several times after the first fall.

[NotSuper]

I'd have to agree. As Zodiac said, IIRC, the best Lex this year is Morrison's interpretation in All-Star where he's in prison, but only because it serves his purpose.
Indeed. Lex can escape any time he wants to. Kind of like a Dr. Mabuse type of villain.

I especially like how he seems to view his prison as a sort of kingdom.

[Slaughter]

I can't wait to see Johns use Lex again. I hope he uses in after Brainiac arc. If Johns can't fix Madman Lex, hand him to Morrison. If Morrison CAN'T handle Lex, give us bussiness man lex back.

Man, remember when Lex was the President and Knew Superman Secret ID, miss chance to destory him...:frown:

Yeah, that was a GREAT slip-out. I think the whole hoax that Metallo killed the Waynes was nothing but a adaptation of something else. I believe Loeb prepared the ground for the final battle between Lex vs Superman and Batman by making him president and aware of the Secret ID. It was stupid to make Lex forget it. In fact, it made no sense that Lex dind't found it out again. Lex was the GODDMAN PRESIDENT, he could've hired a telepath to help him, he got enough money to make a army, I'm sure he can hire a telepath to make his memories surface back. Although it was kinda retconned that Lex recovered the memory in the end of Public Enemies, but Mxy retconned it so that Lex still dind't know anymore. It's freakin' strange that he never tried to find out again, speacially after what happened.

[suttercain]

I'll take it a step further. I think DC needs to kill Lex off. I don't mean replace him with a red headed Australian, I mean kill him off. Let's do with out him for a few years, bring him back bigger and badder than ever. If they can kill of Jason Todd and keep him tucked away for over 15 years, surely they can do the same with Lex for about 5.

Lex needs to go away for a long time.

[brundlefly]

Super-villains usually do sow the seeds of their falls. It was Luthor's obsession with Superman that cost him everything. In that sense, Kal DID bring him down. And he's brought him down several times after the first fall.

Pfft. Jeph Loeb's god-awful writing and bizarre mischaracterization of Lex in "Public Enemies" was what brought Luthor down, not anything Kal did. What an absolute waste of a potentially great storyline (Prez Lex versus Supes and Bats). Lex's previous "fall from grace," back during the Fall of Metropolis, was much better done and gave a plausible rationale for his erratic actions (he was dying of a seemingly-incurable degenerative virus and was willing to take both Supes and Metropolis down with him if he couldn't be saved), compared to Loeb having him go stark-raving nuts and become a Venom/liquid Kryptonite junkie for absolutely no reason. At least that absurdity was somewhat explained later with the Infinite Crisis-ey "Alex Luthor's presence on Earth was disrupting the real Lex's brainwaves, causing him to act erratically."


I can't wait to see Johns use Lex again. I hope he uses in after Brainiac arc. If Johns can't fix Madman Lex, hand him to Morrison. If Morrison CAN'T handle Lex, give us bussiness man lex back.

Johns already whiffed in the Action Comics Annual with Lex (punched out by Lois and then helpless to free himself from prison? :rolleyes: ). I am cautiously optimistic re: Morrison using him in Final Crisis, but I think FC will be all about Darkseid & Libra as the baddies and the likes of Lex, Vandal, Joker, etc. will be either supporting cast guys or in the spectator seats.

Agreed with Jack that the best-written Lex in the past couple of years has been over in Morrison's All-Star Supes. He was in jail because it suited his purposes to stay there and bide his time until the moment was right to leave, not grumbling about Superman and seemingly incapable of arranging his own release like at the end of the Action Comics Annual.

[earl]

I think if done right, Lex Luthor is one of only about a handful of comic villains that could support his own series. I'd love to see someone do a nice long story with Luthor and tell a story completely from their point of view. DC has kind of done this with some big 'all star villain' books, but those things have too many characters to really be that interesting.

That issue of All Star Superman where Clark Kent is interviewing Luthor was great.

[marshal99]

Luthor should go back to his hideous green & purple outfit with the large L for anyone to take him seriously. :tongue:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v513/marshal99/comics/luthorgreen.jpg

[Super Buddies Forever]

I think if done right, Lex Luthor is one of only about a handful of comic villains that could support his own series. I'd love to see someone do a nice long story with Luthor and tell a story completely from their point of view.

For a great example of ths, see the mini-series and TPB Lex Luthor: Man of Steel. It was one of my favorite interpretations of Lex ever, and the last time I've really felt that Lex Luthor was perfectly nailed.

[Bored at 3:00AM]

Agreed. As godawful as Azz's Superman arc was with Jim Lee, his Lex Luthor mini was really great stuff.

[Herr Mike]

Ditto on the Lex series. Good stuff.

Anyway, I agree with the opening post. Lex is crap these days. The suit is awful. Didn't Johns bring that back? It was a very Johns-like move. I'll take Kingpin clone Lex any day. But he can still have crazy science stuff. That's the problem. Crazy science stuff is a lost art.

[Mark_S]

I thought he was great in Salvation Run. Especially his speech at the end about being a real hero.

Mark_S

[brundlefly]

Anyway, I agree with the opening post. Lex is crap these days. The suit is awful. Didn't Johns bring that back? It was a very Johns-like move. I'll take Kingpin clone Lex any day. But he can still have crazy science stuff. That's the problem. Crazy science stuff is a lost art.

If by 'the suit' you mean that awful, oversized power armor, then no. Loeb & McGuinness brought that back in the dreadful 'Public Enemies,' not Johns. Johns did bring back the goofball disco-collar spandex, though.

[Gernot]

...Plus, I think it's odd that he seemingly has more resources now then when he was a billionaire. I would have liked to have seen him living with the rats for awhile, slowly building a criminal enterprise that would eventually rival LexCorp in wealth, but not having immediate access to every sci-fi gadget under the sun...

I think Lex is supposed to be richer than Bruce Wayne with more hidden cash than Wayne DREAMS about.

Think about it. Wayne would at least be HONEST regarding his wealth, in order to pay his share of taxes, but Luthor would be trying (and succeeding) to cheat the government out of every penny he could.

For every Bat-Cave Wayne has, I believe Luthor has FIVE lairs to lay low in.

[brundlefly]

I think Lex is supposed to be richer than Bruce Wayne with more hidden cash than Wayne DREAMS about.

Think about it. Wayne would at least be HONEST regarding his wealth, in order to pay his share of taxes, but Luthor would be trying (and succeeding) to cheat the government out of every penny he could.

For every Bat-Cave Wayne has, I believe Luthor has FIVE lairs to lay low in.

And for that matter, it's highly likely (and certainly in-character) for Lex to have used government funds during his time as President to create even more secret bunkers, lairs, labs, weaponry, cloaked spy satellites, etc. for his personal use, and then to have simply "erased" any evidence of their construction or location afterwards. Didn't cost him a cent of his own money.:wink:

[Mat001]

Johns already whiffed in the Action Comics Annual with Lex (punched out by Lois and then helpless to free himself from prison? :rolleyes: ). I am cautiously optimistic re: Morrison using him in Final Crisis, but I think FC will be all about Darkseid & Libra as the baddies and the likes of Lex, Vandal, Joker, etc. will be either supporting cast guys or in the spectator seats.

Agreed with Jack that the best-written Lex in the past couple of years has been over in Morrison's All-Star Supes. He was in jail because it suited his purposes to stay there and bide his time until the moment was right to leave, not grumbling about Superman and seemingly incapable of arranging his own release like at the end of the Action Comics Annual.

Actually, Lex did get out of Stryker's Island not long after going back in. That's how he wound up with the Injustice League, which then lead to "Salvation Run" and now in "Final Crisis", Lex is out of prison and back on Earth. So Johns didn't wiffed. He gave the ending to "Last Son", which then leads to the other stories that followed. Just because the annual was delayed, doesn't mean that Johns screwed up. He was leaving the character for where he would show up next in the timeline.

[Seraku]

Johns/Robinson definitely need to get their hands on him once they finish with their new krypton stuff

[AdamYJ]

THat may be so, but I always wonder if there were a mixture between the two forms of Lex...Where he can be the CEO of Lexcorp and often tries to be a scientist during his free time. :frown:

That was the whole point of the idea. Or rather, the idea was that the company was built on Lex's capability as a scientist. When Marv Wolfman came up with the idea, he figured that any scientist as smart as Lex would be able to cash in on his genius.

Personally, I'm not sure what Lex wants in general. Sometimes it just seems like he's a villian because he hates Superman. What else is there to it? What evil deeds would he do if there were no Superman involved?

[Sean Walsh]

They moved him beyond the "evil businessman" phase - which I think many people were getting tired of when they reintro'ed the ol' green & purple armor - but now that he's in this new phase.......

......it's like they don't want Lex to be as "outlandish" as he needs to be to fit into these new Superman stories, which seem to be taking Superman down a route the Silver Age used to venture back and forth upon.

Lex being the evil scientist who goes above and beyond reason to pester Superman doesn't seem to work for a guy who was President of the United States.

[brundlefly]

Personally, I'm not sure what Lex wants in general. Sometimes it just seems like he's a villian because he hates Superman. What else is there to it? What evil deeds would he do if there were no Superman involved?

52 and World Without A Superman were both good examples of Lex operating in a non-Superman world, as well as the kind of chicanery he'd get up to. The Everyman Project in 52 and himself/Team Luthor/Matrix Supergirl reasserting themselves as Metropolis' guardians, as well as organizing Superman's funeral, in WWAS were examples of his above-board humanitarian/good PR/serving his own ego projects. And as far as playing the typical villain/antagonist goes, he kept tabs on and manipulated some of the would-be Supermen (who had become the de facto heroes of the books in Supes' absence) in WWAS and even continued that theme into 52 with his feuds with Steel and Supernova (who was somewhat similar to Superman himself: a flashy, crowd-pleasing costumed hero who threated to eclipse Lex's status as "Metropolis' Favorite Son"). Public figure/businessman/former Prez Lex has multiple agendas beyond just humbling & destroying Superman (although that item is quite high on his to-do list). It's the current, post-OYL 'fugitive madman' Lex who so far seems to only exist to hate Superman and build endless kryptonite ray guns in his dingy hideout. A prime example of character regression, imo.


Actually, Lex did get out of Stryker's Island not long after going back in. That's how he wound up with the Injustice League, which then lead to "Salvation Run" and now in "Final Crisis", Lex is out of prison and back on Earth. So Johns didn't wiffed. He gave the ending to "Last Son", which then leads to the other stories that followed. Just because the annual was delayed, doesn't mean that Johns screwed up. He was leaving the character for where he would show up next in the timeline.

I didn't mean that he whiffed on continuity or timeline issues. I suppose your explanation links everything up as far as DC's dodgy pre-FC timeline goes. By "whiffing," I was referring to his camp/comedic portrayal of Lex at the end of the annual (knocked out by Lois, then sitting in minimum security gen-pop reading the paper and grumbling about Superman, as opposed to extricating himself), which seemed straight out of the end of one of the movies. Again, I half-expected to see Ned Beatty's Otis as Lex's freaking cellmate.

Overall, I really like Johns as a writer (particularly his JSA and Flash) and I think he's done great work fleshing out other DC villains, such as the Flash Rogues. But he's got a weird blind spot where Lex is concerned, imo, that seems far too anchored in Hackman's campy Luthor from the Donnor movies and the disco collar spandex/perpetual jailbird/Superman-stalker incarnation that Lex grew out of decades ago. A 'fugitive mastermind' incarnation of Lex has a lot of potential, but so far no DC writer has actually done anything interesting with that concept, favoring instead the predictable routes of the Super Friends/Legion of Doom villain team-ups (and then again, in a smaller scale, with the "Revenge Squad") or just getting into random fights in that atrociously-designed oversized power armor. For all the pushes from writers like Johns, Loeb, or Waid (Birthright) to regress Lex back into a wanted criminal, no one seems to have had an Act Two for what to do with him afterwards. Well, besides Grant Morrison, who's getting some great use out of a 'wanted criminal' incarnation of Lex in All-Star Supes. Meanwhile, regular DCU Lex is currently like a ship without a rudder. Perhaps Final Crisis will change that.

[AdamYJ]

52 and World Without A Superman were both good examples of Lex operating in a non-Superman world, as well as the kind of chicanery he'd get up to. The Everyman Project in 52 and himself/Team Luthor/Matrix Supergirl reasserting themselves as Metropolis' guardians, as well as organizing Superman's funeral, in WWAS were examples of his above-board humanitarian/good PR/serving his own ego projects. And as far as playing the typical villain/antagonist goes, he kept tabs on and manipulated some of the would-be Supermen (who had become the de facto heroes of the books in Supes' absence) in WWAS and even continued that theme into 52 with his feuds with Steel and Supernova (who was somewhat similar to Superman himself: a flashy, crowd-pleasing costumed hero who threated to eclipse Lex's status as "Metropolis' Favorite Son"). Public figure/businessman/former Prez Lex has multiple agendas beyond just humbling & destroying Superman (although that item is quite high on his to-do list). It's the current, post-OYL 'fugitive madman' Lex who so far seems to only exist to hate Superman and build endless kryptonite ray guns in his dingy hideout. A prime example of character regression, imo.

Oh. I never read those. At least, I never read 52. WWAS may be mixed in with all the other stuff from that era.

Anyway, since Lex has lost direction a little, maybe they could use this chance to focus on other villians. Superman has about a million villians that never get developed because writers always focus on the same five or six guys.

[marshal99]

Lex is not dry , he's crying wet. :tongue:

http://img154.imageshack.us/img154/3914/30772612fu2.jpg

[brundlefly]

Oh. I never read those. At least, I never read 52. WWAS may be mixed in with all the other stuff from that era.

52 is really good overall, although the quality dips in some places depending on whose story they're focusing on. And World Without A Superman (which went on for a good while between Death of Superman and Reign of the Supermen) was much better than the Death of Superman story, imo. For me, it was quite interesting to see Lex get his wish (a Metropolis with no Superman) but at the same time being denied his own personal victory over Superman. His smug monologue over Superman's coffin is one of my all-time favorite Luthor moments.


Anyway, since Lex has lost direction a little, maybe they could use this chance to focus on other villians. Superman has about a million villians that never get developed because writers always focus on the same five or six guys.

Agreed. I wish that DC had just given Lex a vacation and stuck him in character limbo (as they did between Fall of Metropolis and Underworld Unleashed, with Lex trapped in a paralyzed body while the focus turned to other Supes rogues) after 52. Or even after he lost the presidency in S/B: Public Enemies, for that matter. No one knew what to do with this 'fugitive criminal' version of Lex and the pointless, random appearances that he made between then and now could have been used instead to create new villains (like Greg Rucka did with Ruin) or to rejuvenate old ones (one of Johns' specialties). But with all those repetitive Secret Societies, Revenge Squads, Salvation Runs, and other cliched super-villain team-ups, DC kept dragging Lex into them so that all their "big name bad guys" would be present. Regardless of the fact that LexCorp CEO/former Prez Lex wouldn't be caught dead associating with 3/4 of these guys. Now he comes off as overexposed, as you noted, despite the fact that he hasn't been used effectively or written well in years. A vacation to character limbo followed by a well-written return arc would have been the preferable route, compared to the hodge-podge of pointless and unflattering appearances that we got instead. Like the Action Annual, for instance: Did Lex really need to be in the story? No. But he got dragged into it because of yet another cliched "gathering of super-villains" in the Revenge Squad. And so that Johns could write some more camp/comedic "Movie Lex" moments, like being knocked out by Lois and grumbling about Superman in his prison cell. No thanks; I'd have preferred that Lex just didn't appear in the story at all and keep the focus on the new Zod & Co. instead.


Lex is not dry , he's crying wet.

Aw, what a big softie. See? He's got a heart after all....:biggrin:

[AdamYJ]

Agreed. I wish that DC had just given Lex a vacation and stuck him in character limbo (as they did between Fall of Metropolis and Underworld Unleashed, with Lex trapped in a paralyzed body while the focus turned to other Supes rogues) after 52. Or even after he lost the presidency in S/B: Public Enemies, for that matter. No one knew what to do with this 'fugitive criminal' version of Lex and the pointless, random appearances that he made between then and now could have been used instead to create new villains (like Greg Rucka did with Ruin) or to rejuvenate old ones (one of Johns' specialties). But with all those repetitive Secret Societies, Revenge Squads, Salvation Runs, and other cliched super-villain team-ups, DC kept dragging Lex into them so that all their "big name bad guys" would be present. Regardless of the fact that LexCorp CEO/former Prez Lex wouldn't be caught dead associating with 3/4 of these guys. Now he comes off as overexposed, as you noted, despite the fact that he hasn't been used effectively or written well in years. A vacation to character limbo followed by a well-written return arc would have been the preferable route, compared to the hodge-podge of pointless and unflattering appearances that we got instead. Like the Action Annual, for instance: Did Lex really need to be in the story? No. But he got dragged into it because of yet another cliched "gathering of super-villains" in the Revenge Squad. And so that Johns could write some more camp/comedic "Movie Lex" moments, like being knocked out by Lois and grumbling about Superman in his prison cell. No thanks; I'd have preferred that Lex just didn't appear in the story at all and keep the focus on the new Zod & Co. instead.

I figured that Luthor was using those villians to his own ends in most of those team-ups, but maybe that's just me. Though I thought it was odd that he turned the Superman Revenge Squad into essentially a Superman equivalent of the Sinister Six. The original group was a gathering of aliens and the later groups were collections of minor league villians like Anomaly and other characters like that (they're even kind of low on the totem pole for my tastes).

The thing is that only eight Superman villians ever seem to get a regular workout: Lex Luthor, Braniac, Metallo, Parasite, Toyman, Prankster, Bizarro and Mr. Mxyzptlk. I guess we can now add Zod and his cronies to that list. But there are other villians that never get any kind of workout. For example, Geoff Johns created the new Puzzler for the "Ending Battle" storyline and all she's done is show up to annoy Superman twice for about a grand total of two minutes each time. Can't they do more with her? How about one of the other myriad foes he's built up over the years. Atomic Skull. Silver Banshee. Riot. Hellgrammite. Neutron. Master Jailer. How about taking another crack at the Terra-Man? Maybe revamp an old Golden Age villian. Something other than Luthor. The guy's accumulated a ton of villians in his 70 year history. Could it really be that only eight are worthwhile?

[brundlefly]

I figured that Luthor was using those villians to his own ends in most of those team-ups, but maybe that's just me.

Nah, or if so it's never spelled out intelligently, other than a generic and cartoony "we're gonna get those super-heroes this time." :rolleyes: He's just dragged into it by editorial so that the umpteenth cliched "double-page spread of the assembled DC super-villains" roll call is complete. Same for Salvation Run, since the editorial edict required the two most recognizable DC villains (Lex and Joker) to head up the opposing factions, so both of them got tossed into that mediocre story, too, in an attempt to help it sell because of their name recognition. Lex is too much of an elitist to be rubbing shoulders with the majority of these guys. LexCorp CEO/President Lex is accustomed to allying with the likes of Darkseid and Brainiac, so him hanging out with B- and C-list blue-collar villains like Clayface and Metallo rings completely false.


The thing is that only eight Superman villians ever seem to get a regular workout: Lex Luthor, Braniac, Metallo, Parasite, Toyman, Prankster, Bizarro and Mr. Mxyzptlk. I guess we can now add Zod and his cronies to that list. But there are other villians that never get any kind of workout. For example, Geoff Johns created the new Puzzler for the "Ending Battle" storyline and all she's done is show up to annoy Superman twice for about a grand total of two minutes each time. Can't they do more with her? How about one of the other myriad foes he's built up over the years. Atomic Skull. Silver Banshee. Riot. Hellgrammite. Neutron. Master Jailer. How about taking another crack at the Terra-Man? Maybe revamp an old Golden Age villian. Something other than Luthor. The guy's accumulated a ton of villians in his 70 year history. Could it really be that only eight are worthwhile?

Totally agreed. In fact, I wouldn't mind seeing Supes take on some of his lesser-seen villains (like Banshee, Master Jailer, etc.) for an extended period while Lex takes a road trip to another DC book to match wits with another hero. Batman, for instance, since I loved Lex's role in No Man's Land and Bruce Wayne: Murderer and the two of them still have unresolved grudges to work out.

[AdamYJ]

Nah, or if so it's never spelled out intelligently, other than a generic and cartoony "we're gonna get those super-heroes this time." :rolleyes: He's just dragged into it by editorial so that the umpteenth cliched "double-page spread of the assembled DC super-villains" roll call is complete. Same for Salvation Run, since the editorial edict required the two most recognizable DC villains (Lex and Joker) to head up the opposing factions, so both of them got tossed into that mediocre story, too, in an attempt to help it sell because of their name recognition. Lex is too much of an elitist to be rubbing shoulders with the majority of these guys. LexCorp CEO/President Lex is accustomed to allying with the likes of Darkseid and Brainiac, so him hanging out with B- and C-list blue-collar villains like Clayface and Metallo rings completely false.

I figured that had to be it when I was reading that Injustice League story and he made that speech about "I forsee a world ruled by crime and injustice". I thought there was no way that Luthor would say that in any kind of honesty. So, I figured he was just being arrogant and figured on all the supervillian "rabble" as being shallow, one-dimensional cartoony villians and telling them what he thought they wanted to hear so that he could use them for some unseen purpose. And then it seemed like he wanted to go to the Salvation Run planet, so I figured that was it. But I never followed up by reading that story.

Guess I presumed too much.

[brundlefly]

I figured that had to be it when I was reading that Injustice League story and he made that speech about "I forsee a world ruled by crime and injustice". I thought there was no way that Luthor would say that in any kind of honesty. So, I figured he was just being arrogant and figured on all the supervillian "rabble" as being shallow, one-dimensional cartoony villians and telling them what he thought they wanted to hear so that he could use them for some unseen purpose. And then it seemed like he wanted to go to the Salvation Run planet, so I figured that was it.

They half-assedly implied some kind of "ulterior motive" to the Legion of Doom/Super-Villain Class Reunion in JLA on Lex's part, to cover the fact that his actions were so out of character ("a world ruled by injustice":rolleyes: ) But then they couldn't be bothered to actually come up with what said motive was. Plus when SR rolled around, Lex was angry about being sent to Hell Planet with the rest of the rabble, so I guess going there wasn't his motivation, either.


But I never followed up by reading that story.

A wise choice. That mini was extremely poorly-written and ended up being redundant, as everyone of note just escapes back to Earth in time for Final Crisis after seven issues of anti-climactic infighting.

[Agent_Torpor]

Am I the only one that thinks the current iteration of Lex Luthor is incredibly dry and uncompelling? I thought after the first Superman-Batman arc and Infinite Crisis DC would really take the gloves off with this character and let him do things he could never do as a business man. Instead we've seen Lex lead the Injustice Gang, which he did in JLA, plot and plan in underground layers as opposed to out in the open in LexCorp and be Libra's lackey. Bring back corporate Lex, this guy adds practically nothing. The cold war between Superman and Lex was more interesting than Lex running around underground layers like a dog.

All-Star Superman has a very compelling Lex. That's what happens when a world class scribe like Morrison takes a crack at an established character.

[brundlefly]

All-Star Superman has a very compelling Lex. That's what happens when a world class scribe like Morrison takes a crack at an established character.

True; Morrison wrote a great Lex during his JLA run, as well, along with his role in Morrison's Aztek as the power behind the Q Society.

[karasu]

Lex Luthor is most overrated villain ever.


Yeah, I've never liked Lex.

[brundlefly]

Yeah, I've never liked Lex.

Feh. He doesn't like you, either. :biggrin:

[Agent_Torpor]

True; Morrison wrote a great Lex during his JLA run, as well, along with his role in Morrison's Aztek as the power behind the Q Society.

Crap, I never read past the tpb of Aztek, was not aware that Luthor was behind the Q Project!

[brundlefly]

Crap, I never read past the tpb of Aztek, was not aware that Luthor was behind the Q Project!

Sorry about the accidental spoiler.
That bit was revealed during JLA, as opposed to in the Aztek solo book. Lex's appearance in Aztek's series just showed him to be a major benefactor of the Q society, with tremendous influence over the other members and great interest in Aztek's future. Lex expanded on that point during JLA, after Aztek had joined the League, stating that he had always intended Aztek to join the JLA as his personal sleeper agent to aid with his "corporate takeover" of the League. Aztek refused to help Lex and ended up quitting the League, but then returned for the World War III battle against Mageddon, realizing that it was the entity that he had been preparing to fight all these years.

[Agent_Torpor]

Sorry about the accidental spoiler.
That bit was revealed during JLA, as opposed to in the Aztek solo book. Lex's appearance in Aztek's series just showed him to be a major benefactor of the Q society, with tremendous influence over the other members and great interest in Aztek's future. Lex expanded on that point during JLA, after Aztek had joined the League, stating that he had always intended Aztek to join the JLA as his personal sleeper agent to aid with his "corporate takeover" of the League. Aztek refused to help Lex and ended up quitting the League, but then returned for the World War III battle against Mageddon, realizing that it was the entity that he had been preparing to fight all these years.


No worries, I think the moratorium for spoilers on that specific plot is way past its shelflife. :D

[brundlefly]

No worries, I think the moratorium for spoilers on that specific plot is way past its shelflife. :D

Heh, true. :biggrin:

[chriskenny]

They moved him beyond the "evil businessman" phase - which I think many people were getting tired of when they reintro'ed the ol' green & purple armor - but now that he's in this new phase.......

......it's like they don't want Lex to be as "outlandish" as he needs to be to fit into these new Superman stories, which seem to be taking Superman down a route the Silver Age used to venture back and forth upon.

Lex being the evil scientist who goes above and beyond reason to pester Superman doesn't seem to work for a guy who was President of the United States.

I would just as soon forget that he was EVER the President of the United States. I also think there is a middle-ground between the Trump-like Luthor and the action figure-friendly Luthor.

[brundlefly]

I would just as soon forget that he was EVER the President of the United States.

But, like any politician, Lex will never let you forget that he held that office. Plus, he's still eligible for a second term! Luthor in '08! :biggrin:


I also think there is a middle-ground between the Trump-like Luthor and the action figure-friendly Luthor.

I agree, and I was hoping that was what we'd get from this 'fugitive Lex' period: a 'Bond villain'-esque genius criminal mastermind with near-limitless resources who's no longer concerned with his LexCorp charity/philanthropy and instead pursues a much darker agenda. Instead, we've just gotten a silly, battle armor-clad cartoon character who hates Superman and has no other motivations besides that. Wow, how interesting. :rolleyes: