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View Full Version : Ultimate Apocalypse vs. Ultimate Phoenix



amharner
06-02-2008, 08:26 PM
So...finding myself extremely unhappy with where Kirkman was taking things, I stopped reading Ultimate X-Men long before his final arc.

I've read summaries, but I'm curious...are we ever given any explanation of the relationship between Apocalypse and Phoenix?

And a thought occurs to me...

What if one wrote Apocalypse and Phoenix as opposing "gods" locked in an eternal struggle. Apocalypse destroys everything. Phoenix recreates it. The two manifest themselves through mutants and the battle repeats itself.

I dunno...seems like an idea worth exploring.

Old No.7
06-02-2008, 08:30 PM
I do not recall a Robert Kirkman writing Ultimate X-Men...anyone else?

Anyone know of this Kirkman run on Ultimate X-Men? No? Me either.

As for your opposing god's idea, I like that actually. The god's take human forms in order to continue their battles on Earth...could be an interesting concept.

bentleyml
06-02-2008, 08:34 PM
I haven't read Ultimate X-Men in a while, but I really like the idea of Apocalypse and Phoenix as opposing gods or forces of the universe. With Apocalypse representing Destruction or Death and the Phoenix representing Rebirth or Life.

DeREk FrEEsT
06-02-2008, 09:08 PM
What if one wrote Apocalypse and Phoenic as opposing "gods" locked in an eternal struggle. Apocalypse destoys everything. Phoenix recreates it. The two manifest themselves through mutants and the battle repeats itself.

Well it kind of did go down that way but in the McDonald's 99 cent Value Meal style except for the redo match with fries.;]

hunter_peterson
06-02-2008, 09:19 PM
Except Apocalypse was a figment of Sinister's imagination.

DeREk FrEEsT
06-02-2008, 10:32 PM
^ No one knows that for sure!

Besides I really don't think Sinister deserves to have that type of power himself just by killing 10 mutants. Kirkman in a way kind of based his Apocalypse backstory on Orochi from the King of Fighters series. See Orochi needed the same thing except instead of killing people he just needed battle energy from fights through the KOF tournament. Than 3 sacrifices to add the last touch but one of the 3 decides to have their body be used by the orochi, which in a way is the same case for Sinister giving his body to Apoc.

The Idea works perfectly but was exectable horribly by Kirkman because he wanted the 90's style of Apoc instead of completely re-designing him.

Ramirez IV
06-03-2008, 03:36 AM
Personally I'd like Apocalypse to go back to the concept he was in Vaughn's run, and Phoenix to remain ambiguous the way it was in Millar's. Everything just got a bit too real...

Seriously though, I loved the idea that no one was really sure of what the two of these were, it made them very creepy, interesting and a tad awe-inspiring. Having said that, obviously some day they should be elaborated on and given a proper story, but for God's sake, give it a few years to think about something mind-blowing. It still amazes me that Kirkman managed to destroy both of these promising ideas in one fell swoop. I hope the retcon sticks. In my mind the ruining of Apocalyse was the biggest crime of Kirkman's whole run.

Iron Syndicate
06-03-2008, 04:08 AM
I do not recall a Robert Kirkman writing Ultimate X-Men...anyone else?

Anyone know of this Kirkman run on Ultimate X-Men? No? Me either.

As for your opposing god's idea, I like that actually. The god's take human forms in order to continue their battles on Earth...could be an interesting concept.

Kirkman? Isn't he the guy who does Walking Dead? He did Ult X-Men?

I don't know... my collection jumps from issue #67 to #94... in the middle is a big block of negative space...

As for the opposing gods idea - that sounds interesting. Especially seeing how neither actually physically exists... one is a figment of Sinester's imagination, the other is a personality Jean developed to deal with her powers...

ThisMortalSoil
06-04-2008, 07:44 AM
I hope Ultimate X-Men shys away from the 'gods locked in eternal war' idea, while it is certainly a cool one, I don't want to see so much of the 'divine' or space opera elements in this book. I really enjoyed Ultimate Sinister but didn't like how they ended the Apocalypse arc, especially how after a couple issues of everybody being harmless it goes to Phoenix playing deus ex machina again

Prime24
06-04-2008, 01:46 PM
I love you guys for ignoring Kirkman's run. It was reaaaallllyyyy bad. And for him to retcon his own stuff? Geez. As far as i'm concerned ultimate x-men begins at issue #1(tomorow people) - #65(magnetic north). And picks up again at issue #94 (absolute power). nothing in between

Old No.7
06-04-2008, 01:48 PM
I love you guys for ignoring Kirkman's run. It was reaaaallllyyyy bad. And for him to retcon his own stuff? Geez. As far as i'm concerned ultimate x-men begins at issue #1(tomorow people) - #65(magnetic north). And picks up again at issue #94 (absolute power). nothing in between

You know what's kinda funny...Uncanny ended at #66 (I know, one issue more than when BKV ended his, but still) and picked up again at #94.

ThePhenom
06-04-2008, 04:56 PM
I accept issue #89 but there is definately that mysterious gap otherwise.

flapjaxx
06-04-2008, 06:25 PM
Apocalypse and Phoenix as opposing "gods" locked in an eternal struggle. Apocalypse destroys everything. Phoenix recreates it. The two manifest themselves through mutants and the battle repeats itself.

Great idea.

amharner
06-04-2008, 06:50 PM
Great idea.

Thank you sir.


I hope Ultimate X-Men shys away from the 'gods locked in eternal war' idea, while it is certainly a cool one, I don't want to see so much of the 'divine' or space opera elements in this book. I really enjoyed Ultimate Sinister but didn't like how they ended the Apocalypse arc, especially how after a couple issues of everybody being harmless it goes to Phoenix playing deus ex machina again

Well...ideally one would keep the "god" aspect ambiguous...much like Millar started out doing with Thor. Apocalypse and Phoenix could be extra-dimensional entities...or even mad dillusions. One could almost take a suspense/horror approach with it.

Slyfer
06-06-2008, 12:41 PM
Kirkman on Ulti what I am sorry having a One more day lapse never heard of that before

Iron Syndicate
06-07-2008, 06:00 AM
You know what's kinda funny...Uncanny ended at #66 (I know, one issue more than when BKV ended his, but still) and picked up again at #94.

That settles it then... it's fate.