Knaufs' Iron Man - Memorial/Retrospective

[bulbasteve]

I feel kinda bad that we are all raining on Gage's parade to lament about the Knauf's being booted off Iron Man. So maybe instead of taking out the razor blades and complaining we can post here about how great the book was and how they were *&%^ing robbed...ARRGH!

*ahem*

So what was your favorite issue? What did they do that was different than anyone else? Who was behind the machine? What do you think would have happened in the Madame Masque arc?

[TotalWorldDomination]

I feel kinda bad that we are all raining on Gage's parade to lament about the Knauf's being booted off Iron Man. So maybe instead of taking out the razor blades and complaining we can post here about how great the book was and how they were *&%^ing robbed...ARRGH!

*ahem*

So what was your favorite issue? What did they do that was different than anyone else? Who was behind the machine? What do you think would have happened in the Madame Masque arc?

I'm still hopeful they'll get to write the MM arc and have it be there farewell to the title.

As for favorites, the big finale to the Mandarin arc was clearly the best, with one of my favorite moments in comics being Maria Hill telling the UN they just made her head of SHIELD and she was locking down the building.

Classic.

[StoneGold]

Frankly, some of the hand-wringing is getting a bit excessive. Yeah, the Knaufs were good, but does anyone think they are the only two people who can write Iron Man? Yeah, it'd be nice if they were on the book a little longer, but for all we know, they feel like they did the best the could with the Mandarin arc, and it's not going to get any better than that, so better to have fun with a new character.


If there is one constant in corporate comics, it's a changing creative team. Someone else is going to be writing/drawing that book. Hopefully, it'll be someone good. Gage tends to be very good. That said, I'm holding out hope for Andy Diggle. Ever since he did Adam Strange, I've been thinking he'd make an amazing Iron Man writer. Combine the Loners with Adam Strange, and you've basically got DoS.

[Will.S]

If there is one constant in corporate comics, it's a changing creative team. Someone else is going to be writing/drawing that book. Hopefully, it'll be someone good. Gage tends to be very good. That said, I'm holding out hope for Andy Diggle. Ever since he did Adam Strange, I've been thinking he'd make an amazing Iron Man writer. Combine the Loners with Adam Strange, and you've basically got DoS.
I think Gage is a great Iron Man writer and Diggle would be great too. Although judging from all of Joe Casey's Iron Man works, he tends to have an amazing handle on the character, his rogues and supporting characters.

As far as the Knauf's Iron Man stuff goes, I think I pretty much dug all of it. Hard to really pinpoint my favorite stuff but since they've taken over from Ellis they have really been pushing the technological advances in Stark and his enemies as well as killing off characters and taking certain ones off the shelf for new ones.

[XPac]

Honestly, if the Knaufs were going to do a swan song for the Iron Man book, I'm not sure you could do better than the Mandarin story arc. I'm not saying I want the Knaufs to leave... but that sure seems like as good a place as any for them to depart.

Not sure which issue I would say is the best. Like a lot of writers these day who tell stories in larger story arcs, it almost feels like a single issue is really just 20 minutes slice of a movie. I guess I'll go with the finale of the Mandarin arc.

That said, I though Gage wrote a pretty good Iron Man so I hope he gets the job. And maybe with him writing both Initiative and Iron Man, the book will feel a bit more attached to the rest of the MU than the Knaufs book did.

[Teh m0nk3y]

My favorite Knaufs issues was when the tittle was still Invincible Iron Man.
It was during the Civil War and Happy Hogan was in a coma.
The characterization in that issue was top notch stuff.

The other one was the issue where Team Alpha suffered the loss of three men.

[bulbasteve]

Frankly, some of the hand-wringing is getting a bit excessive. Yeah, the Knaufs were good, but does anyone think they are the only two people who can write Iron Man? Yeah, it'd be nice if they were on the book a little longer, but for all we know, they feel like they did the best the could with the Mandarin arc, and it's not going to get any better than that, so better to have fun with a new character.

But there has been hardly any handwringing though, imagine if tomorrow it was announced that Cap had a fill-in arc and a tiny blurb that Bru was off the book, there was a be **** storm.

Maybe because people weren't really reading it or something, or maybe just read the early stuff. Cause in my own little retropectin' I just went back to their first issue and man how totally different than Haunted and stuff. I mean yiiiikes "Nick, Steve, SHIELD, The Avengers...They're too busy fighting battles to see that we can win the war. And if you want to win a war, it all comes down to two things...shock and awe". Bit on the nose with that one...though good they established his utopian CW stuff early on.

Fun stuff establishing his upgrades though and totally handing Crimsons Dynamo his ass, still for a first comic book story ever...

[StoneGold]

But there has been hardly any handwringing though, imagine if tomorrow it was announced that Cap had a fill-in arc and a tiny blurb that Bru was off the book, there was a be **** storm.


Want to know the difference? Knauf's just finished their big story arc. Really, they wrapped up pretty much every lose end they introduced. Whereas Brubaker is still in mid-story. Now, if Brubaker had just had the Red Skull defeated, Steve Rogers brought back, and then it was announced he was leaving the book, then you'd have a favorable comparison.

[bulbasteve]

Want to know the difference? Knauf's just finished their big story arc. Really, they wrapped up pretty much every lose end they introduced. Whereas Brubaker is still in mid-story. Now, if Brubaker had just had the Red Skull defeated, Steve Rogers brought back, and then it was announced he was leaving the book, then you'd have a favorable comparison.

What about say, Graviton? With the pit where time has no meaning and all the other crazy stuff he was talking about or the fact that the what, we are supposed to believe the concluding statement about Tony's character is he really enjoyed kicking the Mandarins ass? It would be like Bru doing all that stuff but still having Doom's time travel stuff being a giant loose end and never actually wrapping up the characters personal arcs.

[StoneGold]

What about say, Graviton? With the pit where time has no meaning and all the other crazy stuff he was talking about or the fact that the what, we are supposed to believe the concluding statement about Tony's character is he really enjoyed kicking the Mandarins ass? It would be like Bru doing all that stuff but still having Doom's time travel stuff being a giant loose end and never actually wrapping up the characters personal arcs.

Eh, not everything always gets wrapped up. If it ended with the big bad being defeated, the character in more or less at the same place as they started, but a little wiser, you're talking the general end of a story arc and a decent place to stop. Seriously, if Brubaker wrapped up everything else, but forgets to explicitly say what the Doom subplot was about, I'm not going to freak out. It's rare that a writer ends up wrapping up every little plot point from every individual subplot. Hell, I think Claremont still has a few left unanswered.

I'm also not going to throw a fit and swear that I'm never going to read the book again. It's more that kind of hand wringing that I'm talking about. What if the new creative team turns out to be great?

[Rahul]

While it started a bit shaky, I've come to enjoy Knaufs' run a lot.


But I dunno if I can pick up Eternals, it might be a bit too high concept for me...let's see....

[TotalWorldDomination]

While it started a bit shaky, I've come to enjoy Knaufs' run a lot.


But I dunno if I can pick up Eternals, it might be a bit too high concept for me...let's see....

Sadly, I was/still am very excited for Eternals. I loved the Gamian mini, and liked the Knaufs enough to want to see what they did with it. I didn't want to read it at the expense of DoS however...

[XPac]

Maybe it's for the best.

To be honest, I think there are a LOT of writers that could do a descent Iron Man. But I honestly don't think there are that many that can do the Eternals justice.

[rogerio]

I will miss DoS...:frown:

[HepOne]

Want to know the difference? Knauf's just finished their big story arc. Really, they wrapped up pretty much every lose end they introduced. Whereas Brubaker is still in mid-story. Now, if Brubaker had just had the Red Skull defeated, Steve Rogers brought back, and then it was announced he was leaving the book, then you'd have a favorable comparison.

What about the Immortal Iron-Fist "outrage"? There are people that wont even give the new writer a look.

I personally think Marvel should release a "Director of SHIELD" oversized hardcover with all 12 issues. Release it around the time of the Iron Man DVD and Marvel would be set. I didnt like their first arc but the Civil War arc was a vast improvement despite the uneccessary Happy Hogan Death.

The Director of Shield arcs where when I think the Knaufs really made this book the best marvel were publishing. It incorperated all the important plots of Civil War and the Initiative and added humanity to his actions

The Mandarin arc
- Referenced Extremis issues from Ellis' issues
- Reintroduced/modernised a great Iron Man Villain without overarching wholesale retcons, while referencing previous continuity (Temugin)
- Modernised Captain Ultra while creating 2 new initiative recruits with strong backgrounds
- Created a new supporting cast fitting of the director of shield (Samson, Hill, Dugan, Ultra)
- Write the best hand to hand action scenes in comics (better than IIF)
- Great realistic art by Roberto De La Torre
- Good use of Maya Hansen, using her effectively as a love interest and scientific mind.

I will get Eternals and hope it is up to the same quality. I hope to see more De La Torre art in Marvel comics, he is very underrated. The realism in his art is almost up to the same level as Hitch, but the pencils are coloured too darkly sometimes.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Is there confirmation that the Knaufs were booted off the title, or did they just want to do the Eternals fulltime?

If they were booted off, yet another dumb, dumb Joe Q decision.

EDIT: Read the other thread, and i'm absolutely floored. What happened to their planned Madame Masque arc? That sounded great!

Ah, the Knaufs wrote a dense, layered story that didn't leave a fluffy aftertaste. Sad to see solid writing and solid art go unrewarded from Marvel. Not enough big bang boom and retarded skrull b.s., I guess. Marvel again caters to the less-civilized of comic palette amongst us. "HEY, THERE BE SKRULLS! HYUK HYUK!"

[StoneGold]

What about the Immortal Iron-Fist "outrage"? There are people that wont even give the new writer a look.


And I think a lot of that is pretty stupid, too. It's not like Brubaker and Fraction created the character.

Stupid part is, I remember the same hand-wringing when the writers were going on the book. OK, maybe not so much for Fist, since he hadn't had a book in a while, but definitely for the Knaufs, as they were replacing Warren Ellis.

[Will.S]

Ah, the Knaufs wrote a dense, layered story that didn't leave a fluffy aftertaste. Sad to see solid writing and solid art go unrewarded from Marvel. Not enough big bang boom and retarded skrull b.s., I guess. Marvel again caters to the less-civilized of comic palette amongst us. "HEY, THERE BE SKRULLS! HYUK HYUK!"
It sucks that the Knaufs are leaving and all but the skrull stuff with War Machine sounds pretty damn cool too. No reason to take shots at the people who enjoy that.

[Abrojo]

Want to know the difference? Knauf's just finished their big story arc. Really, they wrapped up pretty much every lose end they introduced.

Ok, maybe i missed it. But what where the ghosts he was seeing?


Is there confirmation that the Knaufs were booted off the title, or did they just want to do the Eternals fulltime?

EDIT: Read the other thread, and i'm absolutely floored. What happened to their planned Madame Masque arc? That sounded great!


What other thread has confirmation of their departure?
I only read speculation because Gage will write the Secret Invasion Tie-in.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Ok, maybe i missed it. But what where the ghosts he was seeing?



What other thread has confirmation of their departure?
I only read speculation because Gage will write the Secret Invasion Tie-in.

The Christos Gage thread has a quote from a Marvel editor.

[CaptainCanada]

Ok, maybe i missed it. But what where the ghosts he was seeing?

Manifestations of the computerized part of his mind, which was processing information on a level far higher than normal human cognitive function, I believe.

[Abrojo]

The Christos Gage thread has a quote from a Marvel editor.

Sorry to bother you, can you point me to the quote? I have reread the IGN interview and stuff and cant seem to find it.

All i am finding is that Gage is a temp fill in. From his interview dated May 31st. (http://uk.comics.ign.com/articles/878/878197p1.html)


"Amidst all these projects Gage has never really had an ongoing series to call his own.
Don't expect that to change just yet. Today at WW Philly Marvel announced that Gage will be penning a three issue arc of Iron Man: Director of SHIELD following the conclusion of Stuart Moore's current storyline. "

And


Christos Gage: I'm writing issues #33 through 35,

And Finally, he says he is not doing any ongoing yet:


IGN Comics: You seem to work on a lot of tie-ins and mini-series... when is Marvel going to give you your own solo ongoing book?

Gage: You know, that's a question I can't answer, but it's one I enjoy hearing. So keep asking!

[bulbasteve]

Because it is in the CBR interview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=16638

[Abrojo]

Because it is in the CBR interview: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=16638

Ah cool, thx!

"Marvel Editor Bill Rosemann confirmed for CBR News that a new regular creative team will be named shortly for #36 and beyond that will replace the outgoing writing tandem of Daniel and Charles Knauf."

so we know there will be a new creative team but we just dont know who yet? or at least Gage isnt confirmed. I assume they are going to wait and see how the replacments perform before taking a decision.

Or is there another quote i missed that says who the new team will be?

[Magneto Rocks]

Iron Man #14 is their best issue by a country mile, mainly because it's the single best issue of Iron Man in recent history, with remarkable depth.

The Knaufs won me over grudgingly- 13 was okay, and while 14 was phenomenal, I felt "Director of SHIELD" was a slow start which didn't really pick up and click fully for me until 18, when I could read it all in one piece and see what they were doing. Haunted was obviously the grand finale, and it started on tiny scale and rocketed the scales up to global- 27's the SECOND best Knauf issue, and it's absolutely amazing, if not quite up to 14's level.

The saddest thing about DoS in retrospect is how little attention it ever really got. Sales never really went high, and initially, most critics tended to ignore it. It was during "Haunted" that critics seemed to sit up and take notice, and the book was rapidly labelled by plenty of sites as "the best book no-one's reading", which is sad but very true. The worst part is how it was treated by other books- after Ellis, most books completely ignore DoS's existence, refusing to treat Tony as he was there, never referencing events, even contradicting them at times, while referencing other books. Nothing HUGE for Tony was ever going to happen in his own book- if Tony had explained away EVERYTHING bad from Civil War in his own book, no writer would even have looked at it. It was very, VERY poorly advertised by Marvel, and I never once heard it promoted by TOm Brevoort or Joe Q beyond a general "big things in store for Iron Man", and usually that was promoting Mighty Avengers! It felt like Brian Bendis etc had more control over Iron Man than... the writers of Iron Man, and the Knaufs were criminally neglected in that respect, espeically compared to the likes of Brubaker on Cap. I'll say this for him, Matt Fraction's the only writer I've actually seen who said he was reading DoS and was a big fan.

On the bright side, I do agree with XPac- if you had to have any issue be your last, #27 is a DAMN good pick.

[bulbasteve]

You mean 28? 27 was Maya's mind ****, right?

Anyway you might want to do some retrospecting yourself. I read issue 8 today and the Fury/Dugan stuff was right out of the more espionage parts of DoS, I totally forgot about that. Also forgot some of the more cryptic stuff Graviton was talking about, "not a prison, but a factory" and "this is where the beginning lives". And that something is beneath them... maybe in a PIT! (shoooocking!). Oh oh and "demons in white"! I wonder if the experimentation stuff started earlier than we thought... I'll have to wait till I read his other issue...

Oh and they totally wrote a great New Avengers.

[Magneto Rocks]

You mean 28? 27 was Maya's mind ****, right?

...I do in fact mean 28, my bad. ;)


Anyway you might want to do some retrospecting yourself. I read issue 8 today and the Fury/Dugan stuff was right out of the more espionage parts of DoS, I totally forgot about that. Also forgot some of the more cryptic stuff Graviton was talking about, "not a prison, but a factory" and "this is where the beginning lives". And that something is beneath them... maybe in a PIT! (shoooocking!). Oh oh and "demons in white"! I wonder if the experimentation stuff started earlier than we thought... I'll have to wait till I read his other issue...

Oh and they totally wrote a great New Avengers.

I never actually read "Execute Program" because I heard it doesn't stand up to the rest of their run and I don't want my good memories tarnished, but I may just seek it out.

[SquidSquod]

Iron Man #14 is their best issue by a country mile, mainly because it's the single best issue of Iron Man in recent history, with remarkable depth.

The Knaufs won me over grudgingly- 13 was okay, and while 14 was phenomenal, I felt "Director of SHIELD" was a slow start which didn't really pick up and click fully for me until 18, when I could read it all in one piece and see what they were doing. Haunted was obviously the grand finale, and it started on tiny scale and rocketed the scales up to global- 27's the SECOND best Knauf issue, and it's absolutely amazing, if not quite up to 14's level.

The saddest thing about DoS in retrospect is how little attention it ever really got. Sales never really went high, and initially, most critics tended to ignore it. It was during "Haunted" that critics seemed to sit up and take notice, and the book was rapidly labelled by plenty of sites as "the best book no-one's reading", which is sad but very true. The worst part is how it was treated by other books- after Ellis, most books completely ignore DoS's existence, refusing to treat Tony as he was there, never referencing events, even contradicting them at times, while referencing other books. Nothing HUGE for Tony was ever going to happen in his own book- if Tony had explained away EVERYTHING bad from Civil War in his own book, no writer would even have looked at it. It was very, VERY poorly advertised by Marvel, and I never once heard it promoted by TOm Brevoort or Joe Q beyond a general "big things in store for Iron Man", and usually that was promoting Mighty Avengers! It felt like Brian Bendis etc had more control over Iron Man than... the writers of Iron Man, and the Knaufs were criminally neglected in that respect, espeically compared to the likes of Brubaker on Cap. I'll say this for him, Matt Fraction's the only writer I've actually seen who said he was reading DoS and was a big fan.

On the bright side, I do agree with XPac- if you had to have any issue be your last, #27 is a DAMN good pick.

Well without process of making the movie and the flick itself turns out to be good, Iron Man would never be thought as a necessary ingredient for Marvel. I don't know - is it the moustache or the corporate thing going on - but until recently only Marvel editors begin to notice "Um, we need a smart hero like Batman in our line-up, why do we still insist going in with the street level heroes or top of the line strongmen with no one in between?".

I always think Marvel West (a ka Marvel Studios) and Hollywood writers like Knaufs help Iron Man on what he's now. Little thanks to Marvel East or Marvel Comics. More reason why Tony Stark should move out of NYC, leave the Stark Tower for the Avengers, and begin new in the West Coast with the Order.

[XPac]

I always think Marvel West (a ka Marvel Studios) and Hollywood writers like Knaufs help Iron Man on what he's now. Little thanks to Marvel East or Marvel Comics. More reason why Tony Stark should move out of NYC, leave the Stark Tower for the Avengers, and begin new in the West Coast with the Order.

I think marvel comics deserves more than a little thanks for making Iron Man what he is today.

[SquidSquod]

I think marvel comics deserves more than a little thanks for making Iron Man what he is today.

Yep, but I think Marvel Studios is more deserving now.

[Magneto Rocks]

Yep, but I think Marvel Studios is more deserving now.

Then I cannot agree in ANY way, since the only thing Marvel Studios have done to affect Tony comics-wise apart from shift a few more and lead to the creation of a new title (Which is not technically anything to do with his character) is to... well, nothing really. Marvel Studios haven't contributed at all to the character of Tony Stark today, just contributed to the general, non-comic reading perception of him.

[matthewaos]

Those are terrible news... Although I kind of like Fraction (not in PWJ though), I don't like this kind of Iron Man story, that's why I loved DoS. Actually I never really liked Iron Man, but when I read the book during CW (actually the issue where Hogan dies is amazing), I thought this was one of the best books. Their final issue with the Mandarin was also fantastic, and generally the book kept me reading and wanting more. Just because I loved the Knaufs' run I bought Demon in a Bottle and Doomquest, and that's maybe why I liked the movie so much. So the Madame masque story will not see the light of day?

Gage is a really good writer though and I think he'll do good.

[Teh m0nk3y]

http://img150.imageshack.us/img150/7936/ironman16021hy5.jpghttp://img522.imageshack.us/img522/1691/ironman16022ac1.jpg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9488/ironman16023pz9.jpg


And then SI had to go skrullify everything...

[SquidSquod]

Then I cannot agree in ANY way, since the only thing Marvel Studios have done to affect Tony comics-wise apart from shift a few more and lead to the creation of a new title (Which is not technically anything to do with his character) is to... well, nothing really. Marvel Studios haven't contributed at all to the character of Tony Stark today, just contributed to the general, non-comic reading perception of him.

It's Marvel Studios gambit that wants to have Iron Man as a movie subject starting in 90's that push Iron Man to the front as we know today. Without it, Iron Man will still be just a Cyclops or Hawkeye as there are no Civil War or any stories with him as the main character. So I still need to thank Marvel Studios on the trust that they can make a good out of a 2nd liner, and Marvel Comics used the fair wind to sail the boat.

[bulbasteve]

I never actually read "Execute Program" because I heard it doesn't stand up to the rest of their run and I don't want my good memories tarnished, but I may just seek it out.

Well sure, but its still pretty essential reading to understand the rest of the run. And really when I have been re-reading it I'm kinda shocked that I forgot how brutal it was, it is definitely not as different as I remembered it being. I mean geez I just read 9 and you see a tape a Yinsen's execution and more freaky Iron Man murders...

Oh and yeah Monkey that was one my favorite issues of their run too. Add to that the fact that it was something of a twist ending to the issue with not knowing why Tony was acting that way..

[Magneto Rocks]

It's Marvel Studios gambit that wants to have Iron Man as a movie subject starting in 90's that push Iron Man to the front as we know today. Without it, Iron Man will still be just a Cyclops or Hawkeye as there are no Civil War or any stories with him as the main character. So I still need to thank Marvel Studios on the trust that they can make a good out of a 2nd liner, and Marvel Comics used the fair wind to sail the boat.

Wow, that's... completely wrong. Avengers were pushed to the forefront by New Avengers which had nothing to do with the movie, and that naturally pushed Tony forwards. Iron Man would have been the leader of one side in Civil War even if no movie had even been in sight... Marvel Studios had zip all to do with Civil War.

[SquidSquod]

New Avengers were done in 2004 (or was it 2003?). Iron Man the movie project has been planned since the 90's. Remember all that stuff on Tom Cruise as Tony Stark has been thought about in the early 2000? So all the hums on the IM movie project precedes any significant comic projects about IM.

[XPac]

New Avengers were done in 2004 (or was it 2003?). Iron Man the movie project has been planned since the 90's. Remember all that stuff on Tom Cruise as Tony Stark has been thought about in the early 2000? So all the hums on the IM movie project precedes any significant comic projects about IM.

And the Iron Man comics have preceeded the Iron Man movie project by a few decades.

Iron Man is first and foremost a comic book character that exists solely because of the comic books. The movie is secondary. The comic books are the cake, while the movie is just the really good icing on top.

[SquidSquod]

And the Iron Man comics have preceeded the Iron Man movie project by a few decades.

Iron Man is first and foremost a comic book character that exists solely because of the comic books. The movie is secondary. The comic books are the cake, while the movie is just the really good icing on top.

By the looks how IM was faring before 2000 and all the hums on the possible movie, Marvel Comics doesn't take IM seriously.

[Magneto Rocks]

By the looks how IM was faring before 2000 and all the hums on the possible movie, Marvel Comics doesn't take IM seriously.

Oh come on, New Avengers and Warren Ellis- and in particular Civil War- made Iron Man big again- and again, NONE of that had anything to do with the films. Without the movies, we probably wouldn't have "Invincible", but that's all. Marvel have basically never let the movies influence big events in comics before, and they didn't for Tony.

[matthewaos]

I don't think that the current IM movie has anything to do with the 90s project.

[Pyro]

I never actually read "Execute Program" because I heard it doesn't stand up to the rest of their run and I don't want my good memories tarnished, but I may just seek it out.I wasn't a fan of "Execute Program" when I first read it, but after the Knaufs got more settled into the book I went back and discovered all the value it had. It's a great arc in that it sets up so many things that are followed through later. We get to see changes in Tony's personality due to the Extremis which lead into the choices he made in Civil War. It's where Sal and Maya really become supporting characters. I mean, how many other writers would have brought them back into the title? It also introduces Kareem Najeeb and the beginnings of the Mandarin story.

I also really liked how Tony is involved in something really awful that could have been the catalyst for Civil War, but was covered up as Kooning mentions around issue 13 or 14, and Captain America says he isn't to blame in Gage's Civil War: Iron Man/Captain America issue. I think Tony's guilt over it really adds to his motivations during Civil War.

Plus, there's an interesting mystery and more detail added to his origin as well as some pretty cool fights and guest stars. I would totally recommend it. I think you you would find a lot to like about it Magneto Rocks.

[RedRonin]

I'll miss the Knaufs greatly. Especially since during Civil War there were a lot of writers who just threw Stark under the bus or used him so their characters could soapbox, all the while the Knaufs delivered an more true to form Tony Stark. It started off shaky, with a very forgettable arc, but once DOS rolled around it became something to look forward to every month. I'm definitely following them on the Eternals.

I half expect Marvel to turn Iron Man: DOS in War Machine (like Hulk --> Herc), just so they have something on the shelfs whenever they suit up Rhodey in the movie.

[XPac]

I half expect Marvel to turn Iron Man: DOS in War Machine (like Hulk --> Herc), just so they have something on the shelfs whenever they suit up Rhodey in the movie.

Hmmm... that's kind of a neat idea. It certainly worked for Herc, who might not have been able to carry his own book had he just been given an issue one.

Maybe they should try and do this more often as a way to give B and C list characters a shot.

[RedRonin]

Hmmm... that's kind of a neat idea. It certainly worked for Herc, who might not have been able to carry his own book had he just been given an issue one.

Maybe they should try and do this more often as a way to give B and C list characters a shot.
Though I'm not a fan of Herc (and even less of Cho), it's cool to see him have his own title. So I'd love to see Marvel take more B and C characters, move them up the ranks, and then launch them into their own series.

[mikekerr3]

And the Iron Man comics have preceeded the Iron Man movie project by a few decades.

Iron Man is first and foremost a comic book character that exists solely because of the comic books. The movie is secondary. The comic books are the cake, while the movie is just the really good icing on top.

Do you think that Iron man comics in the last 10 years have made as much Profit as the movie idid in a month? They will make more from Irom man DVDs in a year than the comics In 5. Comics are small money compaired to movies. They will probley sell more DVDs in the first month than they will sell Iron ooks in a year with a much greater profit margin.

Works that way for books except at the very top tier and even then movie rightscan pay more than a best selling book.

Look at Marvel balance sheet and you will find that the books are almost a sideline now.

[Exo]

Won't repeat what has already been said, needless to say I'm very sad to see the Knaufs leave.

Maybe Tony, by the end of SI, steps down as the director of SHIELD and that part was crucial in the stories the Knaufs had panned out in the years to come (hence they couldn't or wouldn't want to stick around after SI). My favorite issue is #15. It was the beginning of something truly great IMO. CW made me care about Ironman (for the very first time), but the Knaufs kept me there.

[gorthon616]

Won't repeat what has already been said, needless to say I'm very sad to see the Knaufs leave.

Maybe Tony, by the end of SI, steps down as the director of SHIELD and that part was crucial in the stories the Knaufs had panned out in the years to come (hence they couldn't or wouldn't want to stick around after SI). My favorite issue is #15. It was the beginning of something truly great IMO. CW made me care about Ironman (for the very first time), but the Knaufs kept me there.

I couldn't agree more. They probably took the most challenging title currently out there (b/c of Civil War treatment), Iron Man, and did their best to write him back into herodom. Not everyone might have liked it, but they stood by Tony during his darkest hour, and I'm a bit sad that as Tony is moving more and more into an acceptable spotlight, it seems most of their work may merely be a footnote rather than a chapter in his story.

[XPac]

I couldn't agree more. They probably took the most challenging title currently out there (b/c of Civil War treatment), Iron Man, and did their best to write him back into herodom. Not everyone might have liked it, but they stood by Tony during his darkest hour, and I'm a bit sad that as Tony is moving more and more into an acceptable spotlight, it seems most of their work may merely be a footnote rather than a chapter in his story.

I personally think writing Iron Man post CW is a dream gig. Everyone wanted to use Iron Man after CW... but the Knaufs actually got to right the book. So I don't feel to sorry for them. I'm sure it was a challenge... but I think it's the type of challenge that writers want. A gazillion marvel writers and editors have said Tony is more interesting post CW than he has in the past.

I think if Knaufs got overshadowed, it was merely because Tony was popping up everywhere. He was practicaly a main character in the Captain America book. He was showing up regularly in both Avenger books. He showed up a lot in She-Hulk, Spider-Man... heck, he was showing up in Moon Knight. The real challenge I think is standing out when the character is just all over the place. Calling it Tony's darkest hour is almost a bit misleading, because it became his finest hour too.

[gorthon616]

I personally think writing Iron Man post CW is a dream gig. Everyone wanted to use Iron Man after CW... but the Knaufs actually got to right the book. So I don't feel to sorry for them. I'm sure it was a challenge... but I think it's the type of challenge that writers want. A gazillion marvel writers and editors have said Tony is more interesting post CW than he has in the past.

I think if Knaufs got overshadowed, it was merely because Tony was popping up everywhere. He was practicaly a main character in the Captain America book. He was showing up regularly in both Avenger books. He showed up a lot in She-Hulk, Spider-Man... heck, he was showing up in Moon Knight. The real challenge I think is standing out when the character is just all over the place. Calling it Tony's darkest hour is almost a bit misleading, because it became his finest hour too.

If you are being portrayed in almost every book as being a villain, you would call that you're finest hour? At the end of the day, there was the promise of a balanced argument to the Civil War debate. Civil War didn't do that, and that's what I meant when I say they stood by him. They tried to play the balance and they tried to show what was good about Tony's side. As interesting as the gazillions of writers and editors thought Tony was, at the end of the day it always ended up being another banal example of "why Tony was horribly wrong" (aside from 'Bru).

The Knaufs wrote the Tony that no one else would touch. And they wrote him in a way that no one else has ever touched the character. I don't mean to say I felt sorry that they were stuck trying to write him, I'm sorry that for all the hype about "the most interesting his been in years" in my opinion the only interesting and genuinely challenging look at Tony is the one that is being cut away.

[XPac]

If you are being portrayed in almost every book as being a villain, you would call that you're finest hour? At the end of the day, there was the promise of a balanced argument to the Civil War debate. Civil War didn't do that, and that's what I meant when I say they stood by him. They tried to play the balance and they tried to show what was good about Tony's side. As interesting as the gazillions of writers and editors thought Tony was, at the end of the day it always ended up being another banal example of "why Tony was horribly wrong" (aside from 'Bru).

The Knaufs wrote the Tony that no one else would touch. And they wrote him in a way that no one else has ever touched the character. I don't mean to say I felt sorry that they were stuck trying to write him, I'm sorry that for all the hype about "the most interesting his been in years" in my opinion the only interesting and genuinely challenging look at Tony is the one that is being cut away.

If he's showing up in as many issues as Spidey and Wolverine combined on a given week, then YES I consider it the characters finest hour. The character became the most central character in the entire MU.

[gorthon616]

If he's showing up in as many issues as Spidey and Wolverine combined on a given week, then YES I consider it the characters finest hour. The character became the most central character in the entire MU.

So is Wolverine at his finest when he's appearing in every book known to man? Or is he at his finest when he's handled well?

In any case, we're arguing semantics. If you want to say that "finest hour" = most appearances, then there's not much a point arguing it. Replace my phrase "darkest hour" with "universally reviled by readership."

[Magneto Rocks]

I think that Iron Man post-Civil War had some of the greatest potential EVER. However, I think that portraying Iron Man as a likeable, decent guy trying to do the right thing WITHOUT portraying other characters as bad, was incredibly difficult. It would not be difficult to make "Iron Man" a good comic post-Civil War, but it WOULD be very hard to make it good while keeping the character likelable and without dissing other characters, is what I'm saying- and the Knaufs rose to that magnificently. To some degree, "Haunted" was just a giant "Screw you" to people who want to see Tony as a villain, I concede- but far less of one than She-Hulk 18 or Thor 3 were the other way, and handled with far more class.

[XPac]

So is Wolverine at his finest when he's appearing in every book known to man? Or is he at his finest when he's handled well?

In any case, we're arguing semantics. If you want to say that "finest hour" = most appearances, then there's not much a point arguing it. Replace my phrase "darkest hour" with "universally reviled by readership."

Whether or not a person is handled well is a far too subjective notion for me to really argue one way or the other.

So I'll say this... if a person is used a lot, it's a strong indictor that there's a strong level of interest in both the part of the writers and the readers. For a fictional comic character, that's where you want to be... you want to be a person writers want to use, and you want to be a person fans want to pay money to read about. Whether the fans want to read about you saving the world or getting the snot beat out of you is irrelavent... the point is that you're interesting them enough for them to pay money to see you.

In wrestling terms, he was the Ric Flair of the comic book world at the time. He carried a lot of heat, and people would pay money to see him beat up. Didn't hurt Ric Flair in the long run... and considering how big a character Stark is right now I'd argue it didn't hurt Tony one bit. It's the best thing to happen to the character.

[XPac]

I think that Iron Man post-Civil War had some of the greatest potential EVER. However, I think that portraying Iron Man as a likeable, decent guy trying to do the right thing WITHOUT portraying other characters as bad, was incredibly difficult. It would not be difficult to make "Iron Man" a good comic post-Civil War, but it WOULD be very hard to make it good while keeping the character likelable and without dissing other characters, is what I'm saying- and the Knaufs rose to that magnificently. To some degree, "Haunted" was just a giant "Screw you" to people who want to see Tony as a villain, I concede- but far less of one than She-Hulk 18 or Thor 3 were the other way, and handled with far more class.

Personally I never understood the mentality that one potrayal had to to be right but not the other. They're obviously BOTH in continuity and BOTH right.

He's proven himself to be a lying manipulative bastard when he feels he needs to be... but that doesn't mean he acts that way 24/7 and he can't feel bad about it in his more private moments. The way the character was made, he could be both without one potrayal saying "screw you" to the other.

[SquidSquod]

Whether or not a person is handled well is a far too subjective notion for me to really argue one way or the other.

So I'll say this... if a person is used a lot, it's a strong indictor that there's a strong level of interest in both the part of the writers and the readers. For a fictional comic character, that's where you want to be... you want to be a person writers want to use, and you want to be a person fans want to pay money to read about. Whether the fans want to read about you saving the world or getting the snot beat out of you is irrelavent... the point is that you're interesting them enough for them to pay money to see you.

In wrestling terms, he was the Ric Flair of the comic book world at the time. He carried a lot of heat, and people would pay money to see him beat up. Didn't hurt Ric Flair in the long run... and considering how big a character Stark is right now I'd argue it didn't hurt Tony one bit. It's the best thing to happen to the character.

Who's Ric Flair? I knew Hogan better.

If Marvel is always putting Iron Man as second best, then be my guest. Positioning him as Ric Flair will not make him a Hulk Hogan.

[XPac]

Who's Ric Flair? I knew Hogan better.

If Marvel is always putting Iron Man as second best, then be my guest. Positioning him as Ric Flair will not make him a Hulk Hogan.

If you want to think in those terms, Spidey is the Hogan (minus the fact that Hogan sucked). Anyone else IS second best by comparrison.

To be honest, with Hulk and Wolverine around Tony would be lucky to be second best.

[SquidSquod]

If you want to think in those terms, Spidey is the Hogan (minus the fact that Hogan sucked). Anyone else IS second best by comparrison.

To be honest, with Hulk and Wolverine around Tony would be lucky to be second best.

Nope Spidey is not Hogan. In the right scenario every one's is set to be Hogan. Check on DC Comics for example because they villains as the foil.

Have you thought about thinking outside Zero Sum game?