Rate the Stern / Buscema era

[nuclearman]

Where do you rate the Roger Stern / John Buscema era of the Avengers.

To me it was my favorite ... The Black Knight, Hercules, Captain Marvel, Cap, She-Hulk, Thor, Wasp, Sub Mariner ... just a great period and the Buscema's art was amazing..

[david r]

Hands down one of my favorite periods for the Avengers ever.

[Will.S]

It's definitely within my top 3.

And yeah the art was spectacular, hell look at this Namor face:

http://img242.imageshack.us/img242/8652/namorfaceep1.jpg

And Terminus:

http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/1204/terminusij4.jpg

It was such a perfect matching of talent.

[Babylon23]

Definitely top 3, along with the Thomas/Buscema and Englehart eras. Under siege remains my absolute favourite Avengers story.

[Shellhead]

Middle of the road for me. My favorite Avengers eras would be, in no particular order:

Roy Thomas: added Black Panther and Vision to the team, created one of their greatest villains in the form of Ultron, and introduced Jarvis as a regular supporting character. There were some great stories involving Arkon, the Squadron Supreme, the Masters of Evil, the Lethal Legion, and many more. John Buscema did better artwork during the Thomas run than the Stern run.

Steve Englehart: Though the artwork was often below average quality, the stories were also great during the Englehart run. The redemption of
Swordsman. The Celestial Madonna saga. The revelations regarding the origin of the Vision. And Englehart wrote one of the best crossovers ever, the Avengers-Defender War, and another neat battle with The Legion of the Unliving. I did finally get tired of Mantis, though.

Jim Shooter (part 1): The first Shooter run was epic. The Bride of Ultron was one of the best Ultron stories ever. The battle with Count Nefaria was amazing. And the Korvac Saga was a major storyline, though I didn't really enjoy the final battle. The artwork was often great, from Perez and Byrne.

David Michelinie: His run on Avengers blended smoothly with Shooter's first run, with a comparable level of action and characterization. The artwork was still great. Unfortunately, issue #200 was marred by a terrible story involving Ms. Marvel's pregnancy.

Kurt Busiek: Kurt wrote a greatest hits run, re-visiting various classic stories and concepts with classic style. The Perez artwork helped maintain that classic appeal. And Busiek wrote the best Kang story ever (Avengers Forever) and the best Ultron story ever (Ultron Unleashed). And I would include his JLA/Avengers as another all-time great Avengers story. But Busiek's newer ideas didn't thrill me as much, especially the Triune Understanding angle. And both Silverclaw and Triathalon will probably end up getting killed for dramatic purposes in some future company-wide crossover.

My least favorite Avengers eras:

Roy Thomas (West Coast Avengers): Mediocre ideas, editorial meddling, and below average artwork ruined this run for me. This is when I finally gave up on West Coast Avengers after years of suffering.

Steve Englehart (West Coast Avengers): Wow, Steve really wrote some lame and corny stories for West Coast Avengers. I was a huge fan of his Avengers run, so I hung in there, waiting for his WCA to get better, but it never did.

Jim Shooter (Pt. 2): Less than two years after his first run on Avengers, Shooter returned to the book, and I had high hopes. Instead, I really hated the second Shooter run, when he reduced Tigra to stupid bimbo and Hank Pym to a wifebeater.

Chuck Austen: It's Chuck Austen, nuff said.

Brian Bendis (New Avengers, Mighty Avengers): We've argued about his work to the point of exhaustion here at CBR. Let's just say that I don't think he writes good team books. And Disassembled was a very low point for the Avengers in terms of quality.

[Shellhead]

So that leaves the Stern/Buscema run in the middle of the road, for me at least.

Buscema did much better artwork for Conan and also for Avengers during the Roy Thomas era. During the Stern run, his facial expressions tended towards more grotesque exaggeration. Otherwise, strictly average quality pencils.

Stern never won me over with his writing. There seemed to be a strong push towards female Avengers, and in particular, leaders during the Stern run, thought that might have been one of Shooter's initiatives as EiC. Either way, Wasp changed so abruptly that it almost gave me whiplash.

And Captain Monica bothered me from the start. The cynical use of the Captain Marvel name was the first strike. She was powerful, often too powerful, because it was so difficult for opponents to stop her, let alone even present a slight challenge to her. Her costume was a boring black/white color scheme, with that unfortunate poncho that made her look almost dowdy. Her hairstyles made her look middle-aged, and her personality was so boring that it was almost a throwback to the early silver age of comics. I must not be the only one dissatisfied with Monica Rambeau, as few other writers have shown even slight interest in writing about her.

Existing characters didn't exactly impress me under Stern's pen. Hercules was turned into a buffoon. Starfox was an annoyance. Cap was stale whitebread.

Stern had some interesting ideas, but the delivery was just workmanlike, nothing special. The Ultimate Vision storyline had potential, but mostly just resulted in a less-interesting Vision. In fact, it wasn't until Busiek came along that the Vision ever re-captured most of his former appeal. Avengers Under Siege was another decent idea, but was diminished by unusually bad Buscema artwork, plus the Wasp was suddenly so damn effective that she was practically a plot device. Maybe the Assault on Olympus storyline was good. I don't know, because I gave up before that point.

[Will.S]

Middle of the road for me. My favorite Avengers eras would be, in no particular order:

Roy Thomas: added Black Panther and Vision to the team, created one of their greatest villains in the form of Ultron, and introduced Jarvis as a regular supporting character. There were some great stories involving Arkon, the Squadron Supreme, the Masters of Evil, the Lethal Legion, and many more. John Buscema did better artwork during the Thomas run than the Stern run.

Steve Englehart: Though the artwork was often below average quality, the stories were also great during the Englehart run. The redemption of
Swordsman. The Celestial Madonna saga. The revelations regarding the origin of the Vision. And Englehart wrote one of the best crossovers ever, the Avengers-Defender War, and another neat battle with The Legion of the Unliving. I did finally get tired of Mantis, though.

Jim Shooter (part 1): The first Shooter run was epic. The Bride of Ultron was one of the best Ultron stories ever. The battle with Count Nefaria was amazing. And the Korvac Saga was a major storyline, though I didn't really enjoy the final battle. The artwork was often great, from Perez and Byrne.

David Michelinie: His run on Avengers blended smoothly with Shooter's first run, with a comparable level of action and characterization. The artwork was still great. Unfortunately, issue #200 was marred by a terrible story involving Ms. Marvel's pregnancy.

Kurt Busiek: Kurt wrote a greatest hits run, re-visiting various classic stories and concepts with classic style. The Perez artwork helped maintain that classic appeal. And Busiek wrote the best Kang story ever (Avengers Forever) and the best Ultron story ever (Ultron Unleashed). And I would include his JLA/Avengers as another all-time great Avengers story. But Busiek's newer ideas didn't thrill me as much, especially the Triune Understanding angle. And both Silverclaw and Triathalon will probably end up getting killed for dramatic purposes in some future company-wide crossover.
Interesting picks.

My top 3 would be:

Kurt Busiek era: Tons of Avengers, every character contributed in some way to the title, and had some of the best epic and great stories of villains such as Morgan LeFay, Ultron, Count Nefaria, and even Kang with his run on Avengers Forever and Kang Dynasty (as bloated as that one felt).

Then there's the amazing George Perez artwork which made everything look so much better and hegave each line up distinctive looks and feels. My only problem looking back is Tom Smith's colors back then. Tom's colors looked pretty good for the most part but at times it still has that garish 90's style coloring that just doesn't look good compared to even the older coloring style and especially the new ones of today.

Roger Stern era: I fell in love with his Captain Marvel character. I thought that her being so capable was a good character trait to have and his seeding of her as the eventual leader of the Avengers was well done. Then there's the great choice of villains with Terminus laying waste to the Savage Land, Masters of Evil in their defining story before the whole T-Bolts thing, Nebula and her cronies, the Skrulls, Attuma, a very neat Kang story, the Greek Gods and so on. Lots of different changes in lineups and leaderships and a great Jarvis solo story.

I have to disagree with you here on the Buscema/Palmer run though Shellhead, their combination was much better than John's older Avengers work and I would put it right on par with his Silver Surfer and Conan stuff.

Bendis era: Disassembled aside (and I still don't know what to make of it), he built up quite an epic sub-plot with the skrulls in New Avengers and Mighty Avengers which we're now seeing the fruits of. He uses a great mix of characters on very unusual and unorthodox situations such as in Japan with the ninjas which annoys the crap out of everyone, Alaska, the Savage Land (although Stern did it first), Latveria, Genosha, and various real world locales.

He made me care about Luke Cage and Spider-Woman, did a great Sentry arc while giving a nod to Paul Jenkins, made Clint's costume change into Ronin work, and really changed Wanda into a character we all really want to see again. Plus on the antagonist/villain side the great Raft villains, The Hood, Maria Hill, Silver Samurai and the Hand, the Elektra Skrull, Ultron, Doom, the Collective, Magneto, the Void etc.

His dialogue doesn't always work on all the characters but I'm very appreciative of his very experimental approach at his Avengers work and spins old conventions in new ways with the thought balloons and discards the lazy exposition boxes of old. Secret War and House of M also can't be ignored as they heavily used the Avengers characters and both impacted the Avengers books in several different ways.

The art is for the most part good throughout his run with my favorites being Finch, Cho, McNiven and Yu since they put out some great work IMO.

[DDM]

Does anyone else believe Amazing Spider-Man Annual #16, the first appearance of the new Captain Marvel, reads more as an Avengers Annual than a Spider-Man book? Spider-Man seems to be more of a guest star in his own annual.

Otherwise, I reread the Stern-Buscema run frequently. I would have liked to see more developments of Doctor Druid as an Avenger than being cast as a villain post-Stern. Would we have seen more of Nebula? Firelord might have made an interesting Avenger...

[Will.S]

Here's a question.

Avengers #287 was Roger's last issue:

http://comicbookdb.com/graphics/comic_graphics/1/40/23242_20060116182949_large.jpg

So was this the time when he was taken off the book and Ralph Macchio and Mark Gruenwald took over the writing duties? Did they work off of Roger's scripts with the Super Adaptoid arc or did they just use a little bit of that and transitioned into the Walter Simonson run?

[Giant Guy]

I really loved Captain Marvel in this run. I know she was the pet character but I really loved who she was and how she developed over the run. I still wish someone would write her somewhere close to where she was in this series.

I am not in love with adding Namor to the team. But Hercules and the Black Knight have never been better than when written by Stern. And the Black Knight has never looked better than when Big John Buscema handled the art. I am glad Roger added him to keep John happy.

Perhaps my favorite cover from the whole run is during the Terminus storyline when there is the shot fo the Avengers looking into the Savage Land. Love that cover.

[Babylon23]

Either way, Wasp changed so abruptly that it almost gave me whiplash.

To be fair, this was actually a Shooter thing. He was the writer that pushed Wasp into the leadership position after the Yallowjacket breakdown story. IIRC, Wasp became leader in #217. Stern didn't take over until 227.

Stern just ran with Shooter's idea. IMO, he developed Wasp into an excellent leader, second only to Cap.


Does anyone else believe Amazing Spider-Man Annual #16, the first appearance of the new Captain Marvel, reads more as an Avengers Annual than a Spider-Man book? Spider-Man seems to be more of a guest star in his own annual.

The story was definitely designed to be a Captain Marvel intro story more than a Spidey story.


So was this the time when he was taken off the book and Ralph Macchio and Mark Gruenwald took over the writing duties? Did they work off of Roger's scripts with the Super Adaptoid arc or did they just use a little bit of that and transitioned into the Walter Simonson run?

This was when he was taken off the book. I believe 288-289 were based on Stern's plots and 290 didn't feature Stern's input. Then Simonson came on board with 291.

[DDM]

This was when he was taken off the book. I believe 288-289 were based on Stern's plots and 290 didn't feature Stern's input. Then Simonson came on board with 291.

Walter Simonson was also only a temporary or interim writer until the editors found a permanent writer. I loved Walter Simonson's The Mighty Thor & Fantastic Four, but, given the stories up to Avengers #300 with Mister Fantastic, Invisible Woman, & Gilgamesh joining the team made for very strange stories. John Byrne got the The Avengers on track only to leave when he quit West Coast Avengers & Sensational She-Hulk then the book went off track again with Bob Harras' X-Men-lite themes in The Avengers book...

Roger Stern really provided some of the best stories before the book went completely off track into mediocrity.

[Will.S]

This was when he was taken off the book. I believe 288-289 were based on Stern's plots and 290 didn't feature Stern's input. Then Simonson came on board with 291.


Walter Simonson was also only a temporary or interim writer until the editors found a permanent writer. I loved Walter Simonson's The Mighty Thor & Fantastic Four, but, given the stories up to Avengers #300 with Mister Fantastic, Invisible Woman, & Gilgamesh joining the team made for very strange stories. John Byrne got the The Avengers on track only to leave when he quit West Coast Avengers & Sensational She-Hulk then the book went off track again with Bob Harras' X-Men-lite themes in The Avengers book...

Roger Stern really provided some of the best stories before the book went completely off track into mediocrity.
Ahh that's what I figured.

Thanks.

[Shellhead]

I really loved Captain Marvel in this run. I know she was the pet character but I really loved who she was and how she developed over the run. I still wish someone would write her somewhere close to where she was in this series.

I am not in love with adding Namor to the team. But Hercules and the Black Knight have never been better than when written by Stern. And the Black Knight has never looked better than when Big John Buscema handled the art. I am glad Roger added him to keep John happy.

Perhaps my favorite cover from the whole run is during the Terminus storyline when there is the shot fo the Avengers looking into the Savage Land. Love that cover.

That's the thing: None of the other writers have shown much interest in Monica Rambeau. I can see how fans might like her, and I can just as easily see how writers would not. Nearly every issue would require a gimmick to prevent Monica from saving the day before anybody else can lift a finger.

I disagree regarding Hercules, but agree regarding Black Knight. Hercules was better in his two minis plus one graphic novel by Michelinie/Layton. He was powerful but also canny, having gained wisdom from a long life and a wide range of experiences. The Stern Hercules was often a stubborn musclebound fool, an interpretation hard for any Herc fan to tolerate.

I know exactly what cover you're talking about without looking it up. That was a very good cover, especially compared to many others during that run.

[Will.S]

Perhaps my favorite cover from the whole run is during the Terminus storyline when there is the shot fo the Avengers looking into the Savage Land. Love that cover.


I know exactly what cover you're talking about without looking it up. That was a very good cover, especially compared to many others during that run.
Is it this one?

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7523/avengers256wo6.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers256wo6.jpg)

[nuclearman]

... Great posts shellhead ... really well thought out.


Firelord might have made an interesting Avenger...

might have??....he would have been awesome!!

[The Shadow]

Definitely top 3, along with the Thomas/Buscema and Englehart eras. Under siege remains my absolute favourite Avengers story.

Same same and same.

Other than our New Avengers differences I'm pretty much on par with you in regards to most comics.

[Shellhead]

Is it this one?

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/7523/avengers256wo6.th.jpg (http://img87.imageshack.us/my.php?image=avengers256wo6.jpg)

That's the one. It's classic.

[Giant Guy]

Shellhead wrote: "I disagree regarding Hercules, but agree regarding Black Knight. Hercules was better in his two minis plus one graphic novel by Michelinie/Layton. He was powerful but also canny, having gained wisdom from a long life and a wide range of experiences. The Stern Hercules was often a stubborn musclebound fool, an interpretation hard for any Herc fan to tolerate."

I have read all of Herc's Avengers appearances and most of the Thor appearances, but I have not read the Hercules minis by Layton, so Herc could have been better in those issues. (I really hope that Marvel is planning on collecting them in hard cover soon.) But I think Herc was good in the Stern run because he was stubborn, but not stupid. He had a good time doing what he did, like bestowing the gift. He should not be as noble as Thor or Captain America, the real Hercules was not that way. I don't like when writers play him as stupid. I don't think that is what Stern did.

[Giant Guy]

That's the thing: None of the other writers have shown much interest in Monica Rambeau. I can see how fans might like her, and I can just as easily see how writers would not. Nearly every issue would require a gimmick to prevent Monica from saving the day before anybody else can lift a finger.


I agree with you there. She got too powerful. Almost as if Chris Claremont was writing her. But in the course of Roger Stern's run she really stuck out as an amazing heroine. I think Jerry Ordway handled her well when he did the three issues during Busiek's run. I still love the character and would love to see her comeback as Captain Marvel. I really think there could be more than one.

[Giant Guy]

That's the one. It's classic.

Yep that is the one. I always remember it differently (without Starfox, and Cap and BK switched) but everytime I see the real thing I am much more impressed than by my memory. I love how the Wasp is flying out over the ledge and Herc is getting ready for the big fight.

[Will.S]

I have read all of Herc's Avengers appearances and most of the Thor appearances, but I have not read the Hercules minis by Layton, so Herc could have been better in those issues. (I really hope that Marvel is planning on collecting them in hard cover soon.) But I think Herc was good in the Stern run because he was stubborn, but not stupid. He had a good time doing what he did, like bestowing the gift. He should not be as noble as Thor or Captain America, the real Hercules was not that way. I don't like when writers play him as stupid. I don't think that is what Stern did.
While I thought the chauvinistic thing Herc had going on with Wasp was weird, I definitely enjoyed Roger's take on him. I thought he retained all the fun aspects of Hercules but also made him very vulnerable in Under Siege and Assault on Olympus and a great foil for other characters like Namor.

[Babylon23]

Same same and same.

Other than our New Avengers differences I'm pretty much on par with you in regards to most comics.

Hey, one point of contention isn't too bad all things considered. I keep trying to give NA a shot but it just doesn't do it for me. On a positive note, Bendis brought Mockingbird back to life. I give him points for that.

I'd love for Marvel to reprint Unlimited Vision from Stern's run. I've always loved that story.

[Giant Guy]

While I thought the chauvinistic thing Herc had going on with Wasp was weird, I definitely enjoyed Roger's take on him.

The chauvinism towards the Wasp was right in line with his character. Herc understood strength and combat skills not so much strategy. The miniature Wasp with her stings and her diva lifestyle did not cut it for Herc. And even though she was a proven leader, Herc still saw her as a little player in the Avengers game. I think if She-Hulk or some other physically strong female was leading Herc would not have had a problem. Heck he used to take orders from the Black Widow in the Champions. The Widow is a dangerous former spy while the Wasp is a fashion designing bug. I think there lies Herc's chauvinism.

[JdRavnos]

Does anyone know what Stern's plans for Dr. Druid were? He definately seemed to be building towards something before he left the title.

[Babylon23]

I'm not sure about his plans for Druid, but here's some other comments Stern has made about his run:

You wrapped up your run about a year prior to Avengers #300. Can you tell us anything about your plans for the title if you'd stayed on for that particular anniversary issue?

I was still working that out, but I'd hoped to engineer a big cosmic dust-up with Loki. Oh, and Power Man was going to join the team.

and

Well, first they were going to clear him in the death of Iron Fist.

How much of the Super-Adaptoid/Fixer/Heavy Metal story was based on your ideas and concepts, and how much of it was left for Ralph Macchio and Mark Gruenwald to fill in?

I really don't recall. And unless I someday unearth my old notes on those issues, I may never be able to say. All I can tell you is that I plotted those first two issues before I was fired, and never really read what was done with them. Didn't read the Avengers again until Br'er Byrne's brief run as writer...and after that, not until Kurt Busiek took over. (I did later acquire most of the issues in between while researching Avengers Forever.)

But "Heavy Metal" was not my title for the storyline.

Other writers (Starlin/Simonson) refuted the fact that she was Thanos' daughter...was this your plan? Was she lying about her lineage or did the other writers just go in their own direction with her?

Nebula is the granddaughter of Thanos. As far as I'm concerned, she was sincere in that belief. Of course, if Jim Starlin had a problem with her lineage, I would understand.

I heard rumors of a future arc where Firelord crashed on earth and recruited the avengers to find Nebula in space...was this planned? What were your long term plans for Nebula?

I had planned to eventually have Firelord -- beaten to within an inch of his life -- show up on the Avengers' doorstep and say, "She's got him!" just before collapsing. And then, the Avengers would take off on a big space adventure to rescue Starfox from his grandniece.

That would probably have been sometime after issue #300.

[Will.S]

I'm not sure about his plans for Druid, but here's some other comments Stern has made about his run:

You wrapped up your run about a year prior to Avengers #300. Can you tell us anything about your plans for the title if you'd stayed on for that particular anniversary issue?

I was still working that out, but I'd hoped to engineer a big cosmic dust-up with Loki. Oh, and Power Man was going to join the team.

and

Well, first they were going to clear him in the death of Iron Fist.

How much of the Super-Adaptoid/Fixer/Heavy Metal story was based on your ideas and concepts, and how much of it was left for Ralph Macchio and Mark Gruenwald to fill in?

I really don't recall. And unless I someday unearth my old notes on those issues, I may never be able to say. All I can tell you is that I plotted those first two issues before I was fired, and never really read what was done with them. Didn't read the Avengers again until Br'er Byrne's brief run as writer...and after that, not until Kurt Busiek took over. (I did later acquire most of the issues in between while researching Avengers Forever.)

But "Heavy Metal" was not my title for the storyline.

Other writers (Starlin/Simonson) refuted the fact that she was Thanos' daughter...was this your plan? Was she lying about her lineage or did the other writers just go in their own direction with her?

Nebula is the granddaughter of Thanos. As far as I'm concerned, she was sincere in that belief. Of course, if Jim Starlin had a problem with her lineage, I would understand.

I heard rumors of a future arc where Firelord crashed on earth and recruited the avengers to find Nebula in space...was this planned? What were your long term plans for Nebula?

I had planned to eventually have Firelord -- beaten to within an inch of his life -- show up on the Avengers' doorstep and say, "She's got him!" just before collapsing. And then, the Avengers would take off on a big space adventure to rescue Starfox from his grandniece.

That would probably have been sometime after issue #300.
Wow, interesting stuff. I was wondering what the deal was with the Heavy Metal arc.

Thanks Babylon.

[Babylon23]

Thanks Babylon.

You're welcome.

For anybody that's interesting, these quotes come from Roger's forum at http://www.imwan.com/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=33 It's a great read.

Here's Roger on his collaboration with John Buscema:

Big John was, hands down, the greatest artist I've gotten to work with. Some artists might be slightly better storytellers, and others might have greater dynamics to their work, but John just drew better than anyone else.

I once saw him give a talk at a convention, sketching away on a big pad as he spoke and producing these incredible figure studies. No kidding, you could see jaws drop amongst the other artists who were watching.

John had a matter-of-fact gruffness to him, but that was a bit of a facade. He would interact with small children with an almost grandfatherly gentleness. Down deep, he had a good heart and a great, great laugh.

My biggest regret is that I was never able to come up with a character that he loved drawing as much as he did Conan.

One other plot point from late in his run. Shortly after the arrival of Marrina, there is a scene with Dan Smallwood that was never followed up by Simonson:

Dan Smallwood was the grandson of the old couple who literally raised Marrina from the egg. Growing up alongside Marrina, Dan had a sort of unrequited love for her -- despite what the copy says, they were not childhood sweethearts. I was going to -- eventually -- have Dan show up on the Avengers' doorstep, and there was going to be some friction between Dan and Namor.

But of course, no one who followed me on the book had any interest in that. And with the way things turned out, it was probably just as well.

[JdRavnos]

Yeah, thanks Babylon, that was real interesting. I just finished reading through the Stern run for the first time not but a week ago (I mourn Marvel abandoning their DVD-Rom releases in favor of the Marvel DCU thing). It really was an amazing run, maybe a few hiccups, but probably the most consistently solid run I've read for the title.

[Will.S]

Yeah, thanks Babylon, that was real interesting. I just finished reading through the Stern run for the first time not but a week ago (I mourn Marvel abandoning their DVD-Rom releases in favor of the Marvel DCU thing). It really was an amazing run, maybe a few hiccups, but probably the most consistently solid run I've read for the title.How's the scan quality of those issues?

Is it possible to extract a page or two from there and post them here?

[Barnaby]

Buscema was GOD! Never have I seen so much talent... I miss his art dearly.

[sabongero]

If this is where they had the Masters of Evil take over the Avengers mansion and had beat the crap out of Hercules to the point of a coma, and Jarvis beaten up in front of Black Knight and Captain America, then this is indeed in the top three.

Plus it had some other neat stories with great pencils. Like the story when Herc and Namor went toe-to-toe in that island. Cosmic-powered Firelord getting beaten up by a black costumed Spider-Man.

[Rev. Calibos]

I'd say top three along with Lee/Kirby and Busiek/Perez.

Buscema is my favorite artist of all time and the fact that he was on my favorite marvel book was just aces.......and then they brought in Dr. Druid, lol.

It led to a gawdawful period in the Avengers history but Buscema saves it for me, classic stuff.

[TF_loki]

I loved the stories and Buscema was a fantastic draughtsman with a great sense of anatomy, pacing & layout but I really hated his artwork. Palmer's inks drowning it (the way they always do) probably didn't help... For that reason, it'll always be mid table for me.

[Old_Chum]

For me, it barely edges out Busiek/Perez for my favorite spot.

When I think "comic book art" I automatically think of Buscema. His action scenes and facework was incredible. Stern had the most consistently excellent run on Avengers (with the high point being Under Siege).

[Babylon23]

For me, Buscema is THE Avengers artist. His work on the series in the 60's is second to none, and I loved his return in the 80's. Under Siege and the Olympus story are just beautiful to look at.

[tangentman]

I voted "Middle of the Road". Buscema's game was slightly sub-par compared with his first Avengers run, though still miles above the likes of Don Heck, Ron Frenz, or Bret Blevins. Honestly, though, my big gripe about this era is the roster. I hate Black Knight and Starfox! Always have, probably always will.

Starfox was too much the vapid himbo during his Avengers membership. I thought he was foppish, shallow, and just downright whorish. His empathic power was even creepier and more insidious than Moondragon's telepathy. Slott pegged the "date rape" angle correctly in his She-Hulk story!

As for Black Knight--sooo many problems with that character. First, his weapon of choice. Dane Whitman uses a magic sword--but he's not allowed to cut living enemies? Don't give me crap about concerned parents' groups in the 80's, because this was the same era of Wolverine and Katana. Over in DC, the Outsiders had a female samurai with an enchanted katana--except she WASN'T apologetic about slicing open evildoers! Compared with Tatsu or Logan, Whitman was a wuss! Slapping villains with the flat of his blade and flinging back energy blasts at blasters? You guys say Captain Marvel was the walking plot device power of the Avengers? Come ON!

His personality bored me more than Monica Rambeau ever did! Bland Hank Pym-Lite--without the compelling back-story or pathos. It always seemed like Dane was just there to remind Jan of her unresolved issues with Hank. His womanizing in the 90's wasn't charming (like Iron Man)--it was just sad. Every time he hit on Crystal, I wanted Quicksilver to speed-pummel his face!

Hercules lost the heroic charm we saw in older Avengers issues or The Champions. Instead, we got an impulsive, chauvinistic, petulant millenia-old teenager! Who wanted to read about Jerkules? After his constant badgering of Wasp, I was ready to see him beat down by the Masters and shipped off to Olympus!

Those elements always kept me from wholeheartedly enjoying Stern's Avengers. Despite the goofiness of WCA, I loved the eccentric fun of the Whackos!