Action Comics #865 - Retcon ramifications (spoilers) [Archive]

Syphre Zero

05-30-2008, 11:48 AM

In Action Comics #865, Geoff Johns has taken a bold step with a very serious retcon of the Toyman's backstory and modus operandi. The end result is that Winslow Schott - seemingly harmless and fond of children and toys - is the only true Toyman, and all other iterations bearing the name "Toyman" were robots of his own design. It brings a bit of sympathy to the character; rather than being twisted and deranged, you can almost see him as one of the "good villains," characterized in the same vein as Magpie (seen in Man of Steel #3 and referenced more recently in an issue that escapes me at the moment). Unfortunately, the retcon also brings with it a few problems:

Cat & Adam Grant: The most significant change introduced here was that Cat Grant's son Adam was kidnapped and murdered not by Schott, but by a malfunctioning robot with a "glitch." This originally occurred during the post-Death and Return era of increasing grittiness, and while deplorable, made for a poignant story at the time. Superman takes the night off to take Lois out to dinner, and while out of town, he fails to prevent the murder of an innocent child. The lesson taken away from the story is that Superman's is truly a "never-ending battle," and that psychotic killers don't care about Lois and Clark's date night. To now say that "it was done by a robot" seems to detract from that a bit. Cat's own reaction on the last page seems a bit indifferent, and other threads have pointed out that Cat's bio in the last Action Comics Annual disregards this entirely.

Hiro the Toyman: I simply don't know what to make of Hiro now. If he has truly been a robot all along, then Schott chose to employ some very strange programming in his personality. One could argue that making Hiro a force (or at the very least, a contractor) for good (during Superman/Batman: Public Enemies) was Schott's way of trying to give back, but the Metallo connection between Hiro and his grandfather is not only fairly specific, but may not even be information that Winslow would have knowledge of or access to.

Zatanna's mind-purge: Prior to the retcon, Schott experienced a turning point when Zatanna cleared his mind of delusions and made him see the truth: that he was not in fact helping and entertaining children, but was actually kidnapping them. The only recourse for this particular story now is to flat-out ignore it every happening, which in my mind is a shame.

Ironically, Johns's retcon seems to have ignored the One Year Later retcon of the Prankster, which rather skillfully segued the old into the new and left us with a current, relatable villain not mired in his Silver Age persona. Schott's interaction with Loomis while at Arkham - indicated both by his personality and appearance - seems to have overlooked this.

Contrary to what these specific objections would indicate, I rather enjoyed this issue; what I'm left with is a torn reaction to the fallout this change may later incur.

Mr. Palmer

05-30-2008, 11:59 AM

I haven't been reading the series long enough for the retcon to bother me, but would just like to say that I enjoyed the issue. There was definitely some sympathy to be had here.

Syphre Zero

05-30-2008, 12:15 PM

There was definitely some sympathy to be had here.

Absolutely; Schott is very possessive of his place as one of Superman's rogues, and is desperate to stay out of Arkham. He fears not only the stigma of being labeled insane, which will likely prevent anyone from ever believing his story, but also the loss of his identity as a Superman antagonist. He's not a "Batman guy" and wants nothing more than a cell at Stryker's.

Oh, and his robot wife. That's just downright tragic.

brundlefly

05-30-2008, 12:23 PM

Ironically, Johns's retcon seems to have ignored the One Year Later retcon of the Prankster, which rather skillfully segued the old into the new and left us with a current, relatable villain not mired in his Silver Age persona. Schott's interaction with Loomis while at Arkham - indicated both by his personality and appearance - seems to have overlooked this.

Wasn't the 'Silver Age' Prankster cameo (when he and Schott are together in the police van) a flashback from to Schott was first arrested by Supes, though? We don't actually see him when Schott is back in Arkham at the end of the issue, so the newer OYL incarnation of the Prankster might still be in effect.

Sean Whitmore

05-30-2008, 10:23 PM

For an issue that seems to exist primarily to explain away some relatively obscure continuity from the 90s, I'm surprised I enjoyed it as much as I did. Johns still has a knack for these villain spotlight issues, and I can't wait to see more of them. When's the last time Metallo had a personality, for example?

My one critique is that, for a story that clearly wants to point out the difference between Batman and Superman villains, Johns made both Toyman and Prankster a bit too bloodthirsty. Tossing out an offhanded remark about killing someone with a hydrochloric pie is a lot more "Joker" than "Prankster", I think. But, then, maybe that was the point, and Toyman's bit of vindication is supposed to be drowned out by the fact that he's still a psychotic murderer.

SEAN

Sean Whitmore

05-30-2008, 10:35 PM

The lesson taken away from the story is that Superman's is truly a "never-ending battle," and that psychotic killers don't care about Lois and Clark's date night. To now say that "it was done by a robot" seems to detract from that a bit.

I honestly don't see how. Instead of being too busy to save a kid from a killer, he was too busy to save a kid from a killer's killer robot. The story's message, as dubious as it was, remains intact.

Hiro the Toyman: I simply don't know what to make of Hiro now. If he has truly been a robot all along, then Schott chose to employ some very strange programming in his personality.

It actually does fit the pattern that Schott's toys keep turning on him, though. One became a childkiller, one wandered off to work with Luthor during "Up Up and Away", and another became a superhero assistant.

Zatanna's mind-purge: Prior to the retcon, Schott experienced a turning point when Zatanna cleared his mind of delusions and made him see the truth: that he was not in fact helping and entertaining children, but was actually kidnapping them. The only recourse for this particular story now is to flat-out ignore it every happening, which in my mind is a shame.

You're correct that that story was basically nullified, but I disagree that it was a shame. I ignore most of the stories from the "lobotomizing villains" period as a matter of course. :smile:

Ironically, Johns's retcon seems to have ignored the One Year Later retcon of the Prankster

Like Brundle said, that was a flashback.

SEAN

NotSuper

05-30-2008, 10:46 PM

It's not really a retcon since it happened in the new, post-IC universe and not the now dead post-Crisis universe.

HaroldAllnut

05-31-2008, 12:13 AM

I just know there was a recent comic that openly referred to the Toyman as a pedophile. Why wasn't that touched upon here? Too nitty-gritty for a title as big as Action Comics?

Overall, it wasn't a bad issue... just not the best.

I second the tragic robot-wife remark.

ZT4

05-31-2008, 12:43 AM

So wait...

Adam was killed by Bender?

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00315/fender-185_315853a.jpg

Sean Whitmore

05-31-2008, 12:50 AM

So wait...

Adam was killed by Bender?

http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00315/fender-185_315853a.jpg

Spoilers for the upcoming Futurama movie:
Wouldn't be the first kid he killed.

SEAN

ZT4

05-31-2008, 01:09 AM

Well at least there's a name to the face...

Joe Acro

05-31-2008, 09:32 AM

I think it's really unfortunate to lose Hiro like that. He's the best thing we've gotten out of Superman/Batman since its inception.

He was kind of a human Brianiac 5, but with a vague backstory and with less arrogance.

Hatut Zeraze

05-31-2008, 01:05 PM

I loved this issue. That Adam Grant story made this character useless. No one could possibly delight in the antics of a toy-themed supervillain as long as "child murderer" hung over his head. If there was ever a story that needed to be retconned, that was the one.

I'm just glad they did it without taking the cop-out "it never happened" route. Johns acknowledged the story and provided a perfectly reasonable, within the boundaries of super-hero/villain logic, explanation. Now we can enjoy having Winslow Schott around as a supervillain once again.

I'm sorry for those that will be missing Hiro, but he never appealed to me at all, and I'm very glad we have the original Toyman back.

JCAll

05-31-2008, 11:11 PM

I've never really been a fan of the Toyman, or the Prankster for that matter. But the Prankster got an excellent relaunch, and I was hoping the same for the Toyman. And that's basically what I got.

I'm not a big fan of making villains gritty for no reason, so I'm glad they finally erased that "child killing pedophile" mark that hung over Toyman's head. Hopefully Batman gets the idea and does the same with Mad Hatter. I also have a fondness for villains that build insane robots, which is probably shy I like Megaman games.

But having Toyman build an insane robot which turns into a child killing pedophile? That's pretty screwed up.

I liked the issue never the less, but wish Toyman had gotten his cell at Strykers. His internal monologing about not being a "Batman Person" was the best part, and seeing him go back to Arkham at the end was sad. Sadder than the dead robot wife even.

J. Robb

05-31-2008, 11:31 PM

I'm just glad they did it without taking the cop-out "it never happened" route. Johns acknowledged the story and provided a perfectly reasonable, within the boundaries of super-hero/villain logic, explanation. Now we can enjoy having Winslow Schott around as a supervillain once again.
I was pleasantly surprised to see that they even bothered to address that old story, given how even recent stories are shrugged off as "never happened".

But kind of ironically (since I'm a big fan of continuity) that is one story I wouldn't have minded if it "never happened". If there's one thing I think should never be in a Superman comic, it's violence against children, especially murder.

Sean Whitmore

06-01-2008, 12:53 AM

I liked the issue never the less, but wish Toyman had gotten his cell at Strykers. His internal monologing about not being a "Batman Person" was the best part, and seeing him go back to Arkham at the end was sad. Sadder than the dead robot wife even.

After re-reading the issue, I'm convinced Johns was trying to make the point that there's little difference between Toyman and the Batman villains he looks down on.

Just look at that first page and the dead security guard with the plastic Mr. Potato Head eyes shoved into his own. Toyman even stuck the plastic mustache on the corpse! Johns may have taken away the child-killing aspect, but Toyman is still deeply, deeply disturbed.

SEAN

JCAll

06-01-2008, 01:42 AM

After re-reading the issue, I'm convinced Johns was trying to make the point that there's little difference between Toyman and the Batman villains he looks down on.

Just look at that first page and the dead security guard with the plastic Mr. Potato Head eyes shoved into his own. Toyman even stuck the plastic mustache on the corpse! Johns may have taken away the child-killing aspect, but Toyman is still deeply, deeply disturbed.

SEAN

I got the idea that the point was that there was little difference between Batman and Superman and between their respective villains. Like the scene where Superman was grabbing Toyman and telling him something, with Toyman's monolog saying that Superman never lies but that Batman lies, but in the next panel Batman is grabbing Scarecrow and saying the exact same line. Plus the Prankster was acting a little too much like the Joker for comfort.

I still wish he had gotten his cell with the Superman villains. I meant so much to him after all, and he's totally not a child murdering pedophile anymore. Even if he does build child murdering pedophile robots. :tongue:

Jack Zodiac

06-01-2008, 02:37 PM

For an issue that seems to exist primarily to explain away some relatively obscure continuity from the 90s, I'm surprised I enjoyed it as much as I did.

I'm not. You suck, and by extension, all things you like suck, too. Suck on that, modface!

Seriously, though, I thought it was a terrible issue, mostly because it was just a twenty-two page retcon explanation, and a very overextended one at that. Did Toyboy and Hiro really need to be mucked with for the real Toyman to be important? And any supposed good Johns thought he was doing the character by reestablishing him as the Toyman was diminished by his relentless need to explain every single corner of a villain's personality. It was alright for some of Flash's rogues, but sometimes it's just terrible and unnecessary, and I think this was one of those times. Toyman isn't a badguy, he's just a guy who loves kids and loves toys and whatever. Cool, I can dig that, but he's still a villain. He's still a guy building teddy bear bombs and kamikaze toy planes. Don't make him into some heroic villain, just make him a villain like Busiek made Prankster a villain. Just a bored old man with a shtick and nothing to do but !@#$ with Superman.

That said, pretty damn sweet art this issue. Outside of the one watercolored page with Prankster, I thought it was great. Decent facial expressions, too. Anyone know if Frank is coming back to the book, or is that still up in the air?

Sean Whitmore

06-01-2008, 05:11 PM

I'm not. You suck, and by extension, all things you like suck, too. Suck on that, modface!

Well, my haircut is sweet. Your eyes couldn't handle the awesomeness.

Toyman isn't a badguy, he's just a guy who loves kids and loves toys and whatever. Cool, I can dig that, but he's still a villain. He's still a guy building teddy bear bombs and kamikaze toy planes. Don't make him into some heroic villain, just make him a villain like Busiek made Prankster a villain. Just a bored old man with a shtick and nothing to do but !@#$ with Superman.

See, that's what I can't quite decide. If the point of the story was meant to show us that Toyman is somehow more noble or even just less twisted than Prankster or the Gotham rogues, it was a colossal misfire. But I'm giving Johns the benefit of the doubt that it was about Toyman being just as much a villain as the rest, and merely harboring under the delusion that he's any nobler.

That said, pretty damn sweet art this issue.

I'd love to see this guy on a Batman book.

SEAN

4thHorseman

06-01-2008, 07:39 PM

I liked the issue and I thought the idea that he built himself various self-robots made the Toyman that much creepier. The one thing that seems to bother me:

The Adam Grant killer robot would speak to the real toyman as "Mother" right? But back in the issue where Adam is murdered, didn't "mother" also tell him he needed to be punished?

Plus, wouldn't the people in Arkham...I don't know...happen to realize that the Toyman was still locked behind the walls all those years he was out kidnapping children and whatnot?

NotSuper

06-01-2008, 10:14 PM

Toyman made the robot to replace him in prison, not to kill anyone. The glitch gave it a personality and Schott's commands for it to return were misinterpreted. That's how I interpreted it.

Mon-el

06-02-2008, 03:16 PM

I think it's really unfortunate to lose Hiro like that. He's the best thing we've gotten out of Superman/Batman since its inception.

Poor Hiro, Indeed.

First Harold in Hush. Now Hiro in Action Comics.

I am somewhat fearful of what may happen to the Tailor, now.

Smokeyjay

06-02-2008, 04:06 PM

I sort of disagree.

I think Toyman was insane enough that maybe a part of him did create the toy to kill, and another to become a hero, and so forth etc. akin to a split personality.
The way the personal dialogue went looked to me like he was trying to gain some stability/categorization by classifying himself as a Superman villain instead of a Batman villain, because Batman villains are seen as psychopaths. It looked like he was trying to gain redemption by blaming it instead on the puppets. But at the end of the comic, we see that he really deserves to be in Arkham.

I think its an interesting possibility to explore. That of the dolls being different facets of his personality. I don't know much about his history, but I can't see how his dolls would always rebel against him unless he is a master of A.I.

I didn't come away in thinking that Toyman was somehow redeemed. Just that he was batshit crazy worthy of Arkham. I still don't see him as a Superman villain however.

CBikle

06-02-2008, 10:17 PM

I was pleasantly surprised to see that they even bothered to address that old story, given how even recent stories are shrugged off as "never happened".

But kind of ironically (since I'm a big fan of continuity) that is one story I wouldn't have minded if it "never happened". If there's one thing I think should never be in a Superman comic, it's violence against children, especially murder.

For a mainstream comic, I pretty much agree. With the right writer, I think that kind of story can be pulled off, but until Johns came on board, the book was barely readable.

Out of morbid curiosity, what writer came up with the Toyman child-murder storyline ?

Sean Whitmore

06-02-2008, 10:21 PM

Out of morbid curiosity, what writer came up with the Toyman child-murder storyline ?

Pretty sure it was Jurgens. This was right on the heels of Superman coming back from the dead.

SEAN

CBikle

06-02-2008, 10:31 PM

Pretty sure it was Jurgens. This was right on the heels of Superman coming back from the dead.

SEAN

Wow, this happened that long ago ?

Sean Whitmore

06-02-2008, 10:42 PM

Wow, this happened that long ago ?

Way to make a guy feel old. :smile:

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/whitmore_sean/o_s84.jpg

SEAN

Kid Kyoto

06-03-2008, 01:25 AM

I just know there was a recent comic that openly referred to the Toyman as a pedophile. Why wasn't that touched upon here? Too nitty-gritty for a title as big as Action Comics?

The Lex Luthor Man of Steel mini from a few years back called him a pedophile, but that was always Luthor trying to blacken the Toyman's reputation in preparation for the finale.

I agree that all-ages comics with iconic heroes should shy away from that kind of stuff.

CBikle

06-03-2008, 11:59 AM

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y245/whitmore_sean/o_s84.jpg

Boy oh boy, that just looks awful.

JCAll

06-03-2008, 09:13 PM

Boy oh boy, that just looks awful.

Well, if you kept getting beat up by a god with a mullet, you'd want to stab somebody too.

Slaughter

06-03-2008, 11:54 PM

Well, if you kept getting beat up by a god with a mullet, you'd want to stab somebody too.

True, that.

And why he's diferent in the cover? He has TWO LOOKS. Makes no sense for me.

Jack

06-04-2008, 01:38 PM

We saw before in a Legion/Supergirl scene that the current Superman never had that haircut. Therefore, the story never happened.

Ungenesis

06-04-2008, 02:29 PM

They retconned the super-mullet? Blasphemy!

Mr.EZ

06-05-2008, 09:43 AM

Super Buddies Forever

06-05-2008, 10:47 AM

The mullet has been seen in a couple of flashbacks since Infinite Crisis (the 52 backups come to mind), so it's still around. And even if Johns decides to retcon it, I really don't think it's something that can stay dead. Someone, somewhere, will draw it in flashbacks. Besides, I like the mullet. It makes sense that, after returning from the dead, Clark would take a walk on the wild side. Better that than a porn mustache or "Keep On Trucking" tattoo.

As for the true topic at hand, out of all of Johns' retcons, I think this is the most ludicrous. Come on, Superman or the police never detected that Adam's killer was a robot? They jailed him! You're telling me that the robot was so intricate that it had the real Toyman's fingerprints? The whole thing is contrived, and I'm one of the people who loved the yellow fear bug.

I don't agree that making Toyman a child killer ruined him. This is Toyman we're talking about here. If we're equating him with a Batman villain, he'd be on the level of the Mad Hatter. Not exactly holy ground. Why can't Superman have a bad guy who's more on the dark side? Does Superman have a clause in his contract that he can only fight silly mad scientists and alien despots? It's this issue's whole line of thinking, the mentality that the '90s Toyman belongs in Batman's world, that rubbed me the wrong way. Batman has a wide variety of foes, from guys with goofy motifs to mob bosses to serial killers to would-be world conquerers. Do we really have to pigeonhole Superman's rogues gallery outside of Luthor and Braniac into harmless rubes?

I get that there's a current backlash against the "grim and gritty '90s" (and oh how do I hate that term) and that we're currently in a mad dash to get back to, at the latest, the Bronze Age, but limiting the kinds of Superman stories we can tell as a result will just lead to an inevitable backlash and another reboot. These things seem to come in cycles, and if the conditions that led to the Byrne reboot are recreated, logic would dictate that we're going to see Superman swing back that way within another decade or so.

My point is, why can't we have moderation? Have the stories where Superman fights robot-inventing toy manufacturers one week, but then follow up with him going after wife beaters and rapists the next (as I believe the Siegel and Shuster Superman often did)? There's been so many interpretations of Superman over the years that only saying that one vision is correct is absurd, and it's that line of thinking that's led to this never-ending process of reboot after reboot, retcon after retcon.

Fatguy

06-05-2008, 06:03 PM

Man, for an issue surrounding (imho) one of Superman's lamest villains, I thought it was great. I'm actually really looking forward to Toyman's next appearance.

lonewolf23k

06-05-2008, 06:17 PM

lazlo_toth

06-05-2008, 06:23 PM

I finally got a chance to pick this one up. Great issue and it's my opinion that Johns should be the only writer at DC allowed to do retcons. His always come off as solid and well written. It's too bad about Hiro though, but it makes complete sense.

I don't think anybody should be allowed to do retcons anymore, ever. Don't get me wrong, Johns is great, but there's been MAYBE one retcon that I think actually worked out in the long run (oddly enough, Byrne's Superman reboot after COIE), just about every other time it's only made things worse. As a fan of Hawkman and the Legion of Super-Heroes (and Spider-Man) I can go on forever about why retcons should be ranked right up there with liver cancer, disco, and the Michigan Wolverines as things to be avoided at all costs.

lazlo_toth

06-05-2008, 06:27 PM

We saw before in a Legion/Supergirl scene that the current Superman never had that haircut. Therefore, the story never happened.

When was this?

I am getting thoroughly sick of the "this never happened" revisionism going on. I hated it with Hawkman and the Legion, it's pretty much ruined the Doom Patrol for me, I hate it over on Spider-Man, and now I've got twenty-two years worth of Superman comics and I have no clue how much, if any of it, actually has any bearing on current stories.

Mon-el

06-06-2008, 01:52 AM

When was this?

I am getting thoroughly sick of the "this never happened" revisionism going on. I hated it with Hawkman and the Legion, it's pretty much ruined the Doom Patrol for me, I hate it over on Spider-Man, and now I've got twenty-two years worth of Superman comics and I have no clue how much, if any of it, actually has any bearing on current stories.

I believe Jack is referring to Action Comics #850, though I can't find my copy at the moment to verify it.

Mr.EZ

06-06-2008, 05:13 AM

mr. batman

06-06-2008, 07:36 AM

Yeah, I enjoyed the issue, and that's all that matters

Young Avenger

06-06-2008, 12:51 PM

This retcon is very problematic when it comes to Hiro. A future version of Hiro was shown not to long ago in Teen Titans.

lazlo_toth

06-07-2008, 07:16 PM

There's nothing wrong with smallish retcons provided they're well thought out and fill out any gaps evenly. Large scale retcons like Sentry, or Jessica Jones are the only ones that should be avoided, imo.

You must remember, Hawkman's history was a mess until Johns fixed him using some slight retcons. Legion has been a mess, and now Johns is going to fix that too.

Well, WHY was Hawkman such a bloody mess in the first place? Because Tim Truman did a perfectly good Hawkman story and some dillweed thinks it'd be a great idea to chuck the last 25 years worth of stories and start over, with the new meaner Trumanesque Hawkman coming to Earth in the present. Meanwhile, a completely pathetic and inadequate retcon to explain who played the role of Katar Hol in all those old Justice League stories is dreamed up, and then when it finally dawns on DC that they've made a complete bloody mess of everything, they "fix" it by coming up with more, even lamer retcons to retcon the first retcons. It is entirely debatable whether Johns "fixed" Hawkman so much as put enough band-aids on it so that the character isn't bleeding all over the place anymore.

As far as the Legion goes, I'll believe it's "fixed" when the deed is actually done. For the last 20 years Legion fans have been screwed around with so damn much and had our hopes dashed so many times that there is literally no possible way I am capable of more than a dim glimmer of hope over any future Legion project, no matter who the creative team is. You look at some of the talent that's come and gone on the LSH in its various incarnations and it is literally inconceivable that it could still be such a total frikkin' mess. Johns and Perez teaming up on any other DC property (or Marvel) would have me dancing in the streets, but the Legion? You almost have to believe that DC is deliberately trying to kill the title off in order for it to make any kind of sense...

Hatut Zeraze

06-13-2008, 09:08 AM

This retcon is very problematic when it comes to Hiro. A future version of Hiro was shown not to long ago in Teen Titans.

Any reason why that future Hiro can't be yet another robot? Sure, Schott seems to have abandoned them as of this issue, but who knows what the future holds?

For that matter, how many "future" stories are written in comics that later get nullified or contradicted? If you wait long enough, the answer is pretty much all of them. Even if we wouldn't have had this update to the Schott story, I'm sure whatever future that Hiro lived in would have eventually been contradicted or nullified in some other way at some point.

Lorendiac

06-13-2008, 02:17 PM

I don't think anybody should be allowed to do retcons anymore, ever. Don't get me wrong, Johns is great, but there's been MAYBE one retcon that I think actually worked out in the long run (oddly enough, Byrne's Superman reboot after COIE), just about every other time it's only made things worse. As a fan of Hawkman and the Legion of Super-Heroes (and Spider-Man) I can go on forever about why retcons should be ranked right up there with liver cancer, disco, and the Michigan Wolverines as things to be avoided at all costs.

What if we phrase it a little differently? "I don't think any editor should allow the publication of stories that will obviously need to be retconned later!"

Of course, one problem with that proposition is that not everyone agrees with me regarding which controversial plot twists "desperately need to be retconned" and which plot twists "can be left alone with no real harm done."

Seeing you mention your opinion that you can only think of one really great retcon, offhand, reminds me that years ago I tried to list the 5 Best Retcons for DC, and the 5 Best for Marvel, and the 5 Worst Retcons for DC, and the 5 Worst for Marvel. Maybe I ought to find copies of those old lists, and look them over to see if my opinions on any of them have changed in the last few years?

I believe I listed Byrne's Post-COIE Superman Reboot as one of DC's "Five Best," and at the same time I listed the Post-COIE Wonder Woman Reboot as one of DC's "Five Worst!" :) I'd have to double-check what some of the others were, though.