Final Crisis #1

[Pink Bat Maxine]

So, I got it, and read it.

It could be a really really good story in the end, but..... based on what I've read so far, it doesn't seem like it's going to fit in well as a Crisis event. We see red skies, and we see a bit with the Monitors and the multiversal machine but other than that, I don't really see what themes or elements tie this story into the Crisis 'trilogy'.

Say what you will about COIE, but in the first pages of issue #1, the stakes of the whole event were clear: a wave of antimatter is destroying the words of an infinite multiverse. In IC #1, we're introduced to characters we haven't seen since COIE, and the themes are laid out, and directly tied into the original.

Final Crisis.....? The first issue simply leaves us with uncertainty. Now, that's what Morrison does well, and he's created some damn fine stories with it, BUT it's not very 'Crisis-esqe'. This really seems to be a story about the return of the New Gods, and if this event were simply called Grant Morrison's Fifth World, I would find it fitting. But we've yet to see what it's role in the Crisis Trilogy will be. The New Gods have never been that big a part of the Crisis Mythology, and seeing them front and center here makes me think that Morrison is 'doing his own thing' and it's tied into the previous crises more for marketing's sake than anything else.

It reminds me of the Arcade trilogy of Donkey Kong games. The first, a classic, has you jumping platforms and avoiding enemies. Donkey Kong Jr. has you doing the same, but takes it further with swinging on vines. But Donkey Kong 3..... anyone remember that? It was a shooter. No jumping, just shooting, and it just didn't feel like it fit. It may well have been the best game of the set.... I never played it.... but it didn't fit with the other two 'cause it did something very much different, and is therefore largely forgotten. I think this story will fare better, popularity-wise, than DK3, of course.... but so far it feels quite the odd man out.

Of course, this is only an impression after reading Issue #1 of a seven issue arc, and only after one readthrough. But what did y'all think of it, both on it's own, and as a chapter in the third installment of what's being described to us as a trilogy?

[Linkara]

Yeah, I'll certainly give that to you - as someone who did really enjoy Infinite Crisis, this start to the "final" COIE-style event just hasn't had the same bang to it. It's setup, but I have no idea where he's going with it. But then again, Batman: RIP had the first issue as lots of setup and then the second issue today had ALL HELL BREAKING LOOSE!

...So maybe the next issue will give us a better idea of what's going on.

Also, Morrison is the only writer so far to actually make the Dark Side Club thing menacing.

[BnL]

I was not impressed.

[stealthwise]

Who cares? All-Star Superman #11 came out this week!

[kingdom2000]

Spoilers within, stop reading if haven't read secret invasion 2 and final crisis 1
-------------------
I wasn't either. Not sure if its Morrison or if he was forced by DC editorial to write that first issue that way. Its like they where trying to mimic Marvel tendenacy to have "gaps" in the story for the purpose of a mini series or other comics books to fill. The thing they forgot though is those "gaps" shouldn't be, you know, obvious.

For example, in Secret Invasion 2, a dinosaur disrupts the fight between the new avengers and the 70s marvels. It takes about 3 panels to show and the story movies on. That three panel section is then expanded upon in this weeks new avengers for more detail. Now I don't need to have read New Avengers to get what happened.

Going by Crisis, DC would have had bendis show everyone looking up at something, then cut to people talking about a dead skrull spiderman. To find out how that happened see New Avengers. IE the gap is painfully obviously and confusing.

Final Crisis had a ton of em (ignoring the rather odd opening but probably something to do with showing the beginning and end of the DCU). Got Turpin going from a scene of orion to talking to the Question to about to be eaten by kids, with a clear passage of time in the background. You have Hal Jordon occupied, clear referenced to make you go "wonder what he was doing?". There is the supervillian rally, what was that about? Finally there is the death of the Martian Manhunter that we don't see. All kinds of things that happen off screen, often with disorienting jumps in the storytelling, all built in to sell other comic books.

Sheesh when will DC learn, if your going to copy Marvel in technique at least try to do it as well or better. Not take a step back. For all the effectivness of it you might as well had a blank page that said "How did Turpin get in this mess! Read ---- to find out!" and the like every few pages.

That doesn't even get me started on other problems. You have the Monitors suddenly condeming another for acts he didn't cause (ignoring the one that did), them having relationships and other things not even hinted at in Countdown but probably should have been. Nor how it seems most of the JL are acting like they are not in the loop on the New Gods. The last page is annoying to with an unknown character screaming out while the real information is in the background. Is the last page of your mega series the best time to introduce an unknown character?

Now all this could be Morrison's fault...but I read All Star Superman and Batman and those both where excellent. The man clearly is on a roll. So more then likely this is one big editorial clusterf#$@ as usual.

The only thing this first issue makes me want to do is remove the mini-series from my pull list.

[TCJohnson]

Sheesh when will DC learn, if your going to copy Marvel in technique at least try to do it as well or better. Not take a step back. For all the effectivness of it you might as well had a blank page that said "How did Turpin get in this mess! Read ---- to find out!" and the like every few pages.


Morrison has been swearing up and down that you won't have to read anything else to get Final Crisis. Yeah, I know, Didio says that all the time and it is pretty constantly BS, but I thought Morrison would be accurate about that.

[Linkara]

You know, a thought has occurred:

What if, as a result of the death of all the New Gods (and their subsequent resurrection in human form), the memory of their existence slowly is either forgotten or rewritten? After all, most of the hero community should have the 411 on the New Gods, in particular the Birds of Prey crew and the rest, and yet none of them seem to have come out and said, "Hmmm, this woman called herself Granny Goodness, and their boss is a guy called 'Dark Side,' both of which match up to these villains who seem to like attacking us every once in awhile."

[Infra-Man]

Finished it just now... Great art, but it all seemed like a lot of set-up without the impact (and that includes the death bit, which left me shrugging).

So I have two worries now:

1) If the main Final Crisis book continues like this, will it be necessary to pick up the tie ins to get the full scope of the story?

2) Will they be able to keep this on schedule or close to schedule?


And yeah, what's up with Superman and the rest of the League not knowing who the New Gods are? That left me more confused than intrigued.

[BnL]

Yeah, I should point out that the art was beautiful. It was the "story," such as it is, that left me cold.

[Linkara]

Here's an interview with Grant Morrison about Final Crisis. Here's a neat quote that I think really explains why some of this was "meh" for readers:

You’ve done several big event books for DC. What’s the hardest part about writing them?

Trying not to disturb continuity too much, particularly in cases where said continuity is best described as a car wreck. Back in 2006, I requested a moratorium on the New Gods so that I could build up some foreboding and create anticipation for their return in a new form … instead, the characters were passed around like hepatitis B to practically every writer at DC to toy with as they pleased, which, to be honest, makes it very difficult for me to reintroduce them with any sense of novelty, mystery or grandeur. So in cases like this, where fellow creators have overlooked my carefully established additions to DC continuity or ignored my pleas to hold certain characters in reserve, my intention is to follow the through-line I’ve established in my own work so that there’s at least some long-term consistency.

From: http://comicfoundry.com/?p=1581

[shrike]

I think I'll be ok in passing on this.

[BnL]

instead, the characters were passed around like hepatitis B to practically every writer at DC to toy with as they pleased, which, to be honest, makes it very difficult for me to reintroduce them with any sense of novelty, mystery or grandeur.

That's funny, I thought that was because he stole the idea from Greg Rucka's take on the Greek Gods in Wonder Woman. :rolleyes:

[kingdom2000]

Now I will admit to Morrison's New Gods thing. They have been used to death (literally) the last two years so their "return" after their end about a month ago is meaningless. If they had a large gap or something (then saved Death of the New Gods until after Final), then their sudden return in new forms would have been very strange but intriguing. Right now it just reads as silly.

But again I blame sloppy editorial. It probably never occured to them that "Death of" could have been used as a mystery to explain the gap between a last appearance as gods and new appearance in Final. So instead they had a crap load of appearances to build up to the end of them. I am betting the creators wanted to leave them alone but where basically ordered to intrigrate them in some form or fashion.

Execution. The ideas are there but successful implementation continues to elude DC. Man it must be frustrating to work there.

Oddly this means about the only way to enjoy Final properly is to be geeky enough to have read Morrison's Seven Soldiers but not geeky enough to have read anything else from DC (other then Morrison's Batman) in the years in between. Might be one person out there that pulled that off.

[the4thpip]

You know, a thought has occurred:

What if, as a result of the death of all the New Gods (and their subsequent resurrection in human form), the memory of their existence slowly is either forgotten or rewritten? After all, most of the hero community should have the 411 on the New Gods, in particular the Birds of Prey crew and the rest, and yet none of them seem to have come out and said, "Hmmm, this woman called herself Granny Goodness, and their boss is a guy called 'Dark Side,' both of which match up to these villains who seem to like attacking us every once in awhile."

It just read like a retcon to me. All the New Gods appearances after the end of Kirby's original series never happened.

[4PointOh]

Honestly?

I thought the art was STUNNING, but the story itself was dull and uninteresting.

[Tom]

That's funny, I thought that was because he stole the idea from Greg Rucka's take on the Greek Gods in Wonder Woman. :rolleyes:

Greg Rucka didn't invent the concept of gods walking around in human form.

[Charles RB]

Novelty? People have been seeing the New Gods since the 70s and they look like regular superheroes. You're doomed here, Grant.

[BnL]

Greg Rucka didn't invent the concept of gods walking around in human form.

No, he didn't. But he did reinvent the Greek Gods by giving them a more modern appearance, and having their individual realms of influence expanded to fit into today's world. Which is what Morrison has done with the New Gods, and it's being promoted as something fresh and novel.

Now, I admit "stole" is too strong a word by far, and I was being facetious when I used it. If Grant did come up with the idea, it's entirely possible that he did so without the knowledge of what Rucka had done in Wonder Woman. But DC editorial is obviously fully aware of the similarities between the concepts, because they've recently announced that they have "moved on" from the concept that Rucka laid out. I sincerely doubt that that's an unrelated coincidence. I just find it irritating, because it seems to say that the Greek Gods concept is being ditched in favor of a property that DC feels is more important. I get it, it's a business, gotta preserve the cash cows, blah blah blah. But personally, I think it sucks. Everyone already loves the New Gods. Everyone already takes Darkseid seriously and knows that he is a badass. The same isn't true of the Greek Gods. The modernization of the Greek Gods made them more appealing, and added a sense of relevance to them that they had lacked until that point. They were given the potential to be on par with the New Gods, in terms of importance in the DCU. I'm sure Gail has got something really cool in the works to take it's place, but it's still a disappointment to me.

Sorry, just a nerdy bout of bitterness, don't mind me. :wink:

By the way, this is not the reason I disliked this comic. I mean, I didn't find the New Gods stuff interesting or well-done anyway, but that's beside the point. The story felt directionless and jumbled to me. But again, the art was beautiful.

[the4thpip]

Greg Rucka didn't invent the concept of gods walking around in human form.

Jean Ray's Malpertuis is a fabulous book.

[Corrina]

Gods walking around in human form is a pretty old concept.

You could even say that Denny O'Neil used it when he humanized one of the Guardians of Oa way back when.

[Grazzt]

I thought this (http://community.livejournal.com/scans_daily/5578266.html?thread=207632154#t207632154) was funny.

[the4thpip]

Gods walking around in human form is a pretty old concept.

You could even say that Denny O'Neil used it when he humanized one of the Guardians of Oa way back when.

If we stick to comics, even a long time before Thor walked the Earth as Don Blake:

http://www.gcdcovers.com/graphics/covers/578/400/578_4_01.jpg

[BnL]

It's not just the "human form" thing I'm referring to, it's the whole concept, the context in which it's presented, and the consequences it bears for Wonder Woman's corner of the DCU.

[the4thpip]

It's not just the "human form" thing I'm referring to, it's the whole concept, the context in which it's presented, and the consequences it bears for Wonder Woman's corner of the DCU.

Venus and Malpertuis were actually very close to that. Thor, not so much. Or he would have been a meteorologist.

[Tobias March]

It's not just the "human form" thing I'm referring to, it's the whole concept, the context in which it's presented, and the consequences it bears for Wonder Woman's corner of the DCU.

Hey just be glad they're not manifesting as impregnating golden showers anymore.

[Tom]

Gods walking around in human form is a pretty old concept.

You could even say that Denny O'Neil used it when he humanized one of the Guardians of Oa way back when.

There's also an obscure book called the New Testament that deals with the idea.

[Stressfactor]

I decided to wait for the trade on this one simply because a lot of Morrison's stuff doesn't seem to start clicking together until the end.

I bought "Seven Soldiers of Victory" in trade and couldn't imagine what it must have been like trying to follow that interweaving story going month-to-month AND with some delays involved as well. In the end, with "7S" I didn't fully see the whole pattern until the end. Once I did, though, it was obviously brilliant -- so many fascinating layers.

So yeah, I'm waiting because with Morrison you never get the full scope of the crazy until you get close to the end.

Also, one of the reviewers on the front page here at CBR has an interesting interpretation of the story http://comicbookresources.com/?page=user_review&id=140 Which is another thing I like about Morrison -- his work is open to different interpretations and different viewpoints..... I'm STILL trying to get my head wrapped around those damn Tailors from "7 Soldiers"....

[Chiroptera]

Well, I skipped the last Crisis, I don't see any reason to bother with this one.

To be frank, Morrison's recent works have been becoming more and more disappointing. His run on Batman declined (in my personal view) as it continued and the new that he would be continuing to write BAts for the foreseeable future came as a huge disappointment for me.

His plans and what he's said about what he wants to do with Final Crisis has doen nothing to arouse my interest, and he seems to be delving more and more into a phase alot of writer's seem to hit at some point.

It's a phase where the individual characters stop mattering and only the plot line does. Whether or not what a character does to help motivate the plot is out of character is no longer a part of the equation, all the characters become completely interchangable and might aswell just be renamed John Doe #1 John Doe #2 and so on.

Usually this phase is brief, and it ends after one bad story where nothing makes sense, and the stories poor press and negative reception from the fans usually wakes the writer up. I fear either Batman RIP or Final Crisis may be such stories.

Grant's got talent, but I've not seen it show itself in his work for awhile now.

[Adam C]

Final Crisis had a ton of em (ignoring the rather odd opening but probably something to do with showing the beginning and end of the DCU). Got Turpin going from a scene of orion to talking to the Question to about to be eaten by kids, with a clear passage of time in the background. You have Hal Jordon occupied, clear referenced to make you go "wonder what he was doing?". There is the supervillian rally, what was that about? Finally there is the death of the Martian Manhunter that we don't see. All kinds of things that happen off screen, often with disorienting jumps in the storytelling, all built in to sell other comic books.

I admit. I feel like I am reading a completely different book here. I didn't notice any of these problems. Turpin's story seemed to pass fairly straightforward to me, he finds Orion on the trail of the missing kids, runs into the Question and gets a clue, and the follows that up through his contacts to Darksied. Didn't strike me as anything more tough than your average film. And the supervillain rally? There was a march of villains down the street while Mirror Master and Dr. Light nabbed Metron's chair. What's so confusing about that?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

And the supervillain rally? There was a march of villains down the street while Mirror Master and Dr. Light nabbed Metron's chair. What's so confusing about that?

Well, I think the big question is, if they were going for a big distraction..... WHY A PROTEST RALLY? Why not, you know, mayhem.

I'm assuming Salvation Run #8, which is late, will explain this plot point.

Also, kinda annoying to me, Circe was not represented among the Secret Society masterminds.

[TCJohnson]

Well, I think the big question is, if they were going for a big distraction..... WHY A PROTEST RALLY? Why not, you know, mayhem.

Because, maybe ( a guess here) for a protest rally they will be out of jail that night but mayhem they probably won't make bail?

[Corrina]

Well, I was hoping the reviews on this would be excellent, as I realized I'd been secretly hoping for a slam dunk, something great I could enjoy.

It could still be, I think, but I'll just wait until the whole thing is out.

The pages I saw on scans daily, though, have me agreeing about the art. Outstanding.

[Grazzt]

Because, maybe ( a guess here) for a protest rally they will be out of jail that night but mayhem they probably won't make bail?

Please, they're facing a superhero-genre penal system. Them busting out of prison is probably easier than making bail.

[Cayman]

Also, kinda annoying to me, Circe was not represented among the Secret Society masterminds.

Isn't she in Hades or something?

Was she in Salvation Run?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Isn't she in Hades or something?

Was she in Salvation Run?

That could be.

I did love the Masterminds scene.

[LewisH]

First he puts all his pieces on the board. Then he starts tipping them over. At the end we'll be staring at a giant puzzle with a few pieces missing having to dig through obscure reference books to figure out what the hell he's talking about.
I still haven't completely figured out the ending to his Seven Soldiers series. I think you have to cut it into pieces and draw lines on a board like the Question or
that guy in the Life tv show. It's kind of fun as long as you accept that he doesn't use the standard comic book plot and that the ending is more likely to be metaphysical than straight up hero beating villain.

I just wish someone had told me I didn't need to read Countdown or Death of the New Gods though. Nothing that happened in either of those series appears to have any impact on this. In fact this runs contrary to the events and ending of those two series.

[the4thpip]

Isn't she in Hades or something?

Was she in Salvation Run?

I doubt that Granny Goodness posing as Athena had the power to send her to Hades (where there wasn't anybody in charge at the time anyway?)


Guess it is anybody's guess what really happened to Cir at the end of Amazons Adreck.

[LewisH]

working hard to pay her mortgage like the rest of us. Fighting Wonder
Woman is fun but it doesn't pay the bills. Transforming sailors into cows
and selling the milk (have you seen the price of a gallon of milk lately?) is
where the money is at. Look for Aeaea farms brand in the dairy section.

[scout1279]

working hard to pay her mortgage like the rest of us. Fighting Wonder
Woman is fun but it doesn't pay the bills. Transforming sailors into cows
and selling the milk (have you seen the price of a gallon of milk lately?) is
where the money is at. Look for Aeaea farms brand in the dairy section.

Could milk from a human transformed into a cow still be organic?

[JohnPopa]

I just wish someone had told me I didn't need to read Countdown or Death of the New Gods though. Nothing that happened in either of those series appears to have any impact on this.

I could've told you this books would be meaningless the moment they were announced :)

My personal issue with Final Crisis #1 is that it features a handful of characters -- The New Gods, The new Question, Jon Stewart -- that I'd probably never read on their own and yet, here I am reading a book featuring all of them and none of the DC characters that actually interest me.

I DO think it's better to take a more George Perez approach to a book like this and at least in the first issue try and hit us with EVERYONE to some extent to show it's bigger than a normal storyline in a single title.

[stealthwise]

There's also an obscure book called the New Testament that deals with the idea.

Did Charlton publish that one?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Because, maybe ( a guess here) for a protest rally they will be out of jail that night but mayhem they probably won't make bail?

But wouldn't most of them have outstanding warrants for their arrest? In that case, allowing themselves to be captured makes no sense.

[Stressfactor]

Actually, the villains have a point in that, if they are not actually doing anything VILLANOUS then the heroes are harassing them.

To paraphrase Larry Flynt -- 'if the First Amendment will protect a scumbag like me, it will protect anyone'. What the villains are showing is that metahuman law is not being applied to them.

Even the Ku Klux Klan is allowed to hold parades and such -- even if they are douchebags.

[Charles RB]

The scans_daily scans look pretty good to me, actually. I'm now more interested in this (though I'm still going to wait for the trade as it could all go tits-up).

[the4thpip]

The scans_daily scans look pretty good to me, .

Of course, it reads a little disjointed with most pages missing. If you read the entire thing, it actually feels a lot disjointed.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Actually, the villains have a point in that, if they are not actually doing anything VILLANOUS then the heroes are harassing them.

To paraphrase Larry Flynt -- 'if the First Amendment will protect a scumbag like me, it will protect anyone'. What the villains are showing is that metahuman law is not being applied to them.

Even the Ku Klux Klan is allowed to hold parades and such -- even if they are douchebags.

The villians ONLY have a point assuming that all of them have served their sentences or have been aquitted of their crimes OR have had their sentences commuted. But many, if not most, have escaped or eluded capture, and as such, they certainly should expect that they would be arrested.

A murderer could escape prison, and take place in a peaceful march.... but since she's currently eluding justice, it would be right to capture her and return her to her prison.

Perhaps at the end of Salvation Run, they're to be given asylum because of civil rights violations?

[MartinRedmond]

To be frank, Morrison's recent works have been becoming more and more disappointing.

I was a fan for like 15 years, I started half way through his run on Doom Patrol. I completely hate his recent work. He might as well be writing General Hospital now.

[Chiroptera]

I was a fan for like 15 years, I started half way through his run on Doom Patrol. I completely hate his recent work. He might as well be writing General Hospital now.

Exactly. His older works are incredible... If you start reading his early work, then his high point and then you stopped abruptly and went straight to some of his modern work it becomes hard to recognize it even being the same writer. It's rather disappointing.

[Astonishing X-Fan]

All-Star Superman and New X-Men both are/were fantiastic.

I find his Batman run a lot better reading through it a second time.

[MartinRedmond]

Exactly. His older works are incredible... If you start reading his early work, then his high point and then you stopped abruptly and went straight to some of his modern work it becomes hard to recognize it even being the same writer. It's rather disappointing.

He's still using the same 3 things to resolve all his plots since the 80s:

-Nanomachines did it. That's why it makes no sense. Because you couldn't see the nanomachines organising everything!!! HAHAHA

-It's a story writen by a writer. When caught in a cluster of contradicting plots, the characters go meet Grant or one of the characters writing the story and that writer rewrites and ending to the writing!

-4th Dimension or w/e.

Bonus:
-Possibly all 3 above combined

Alot of his innovations are just iterations: Weapon XI, Sister Box (hurgh!), Fantomas-X, etc... they're not true acts of creation.

Of course, I'm generalising, I still think he's talented, but all those things come back so often that I can't read his stories anymore.

[Chiroptera]

He's still using the same 3 things to resolve all his plots since the 80s:

-Nanomachines did it. That's why it makes no sense. Because you couldn't see the nanomachines organising everything!!! HAHAHA

-It's a story writen by a writer. When caught in a cluster of contradicting plots, the characters go meet Grant or one of the characters writing the story and that writer rewrites and ending to the writing!

-4th Dimension or w/e.

Bonus:
-Possibly all 3 above combined

Alot of his innovations are just iterations: Weapon XI, Sister Box (hurgh!), Fantomas-X, etc... they're not true acts of creation.

Of course, I'm generalising, I still think he's talented, but all those things come back so often that I can't read his stories anymore.

I agree with you. I've never personally found him to be one who came up with particularly unique or new ideas. But the FIRST TIME he used his ideas they were fun reads... Now that he keeps retelling the same basic plots with new characters or teams over and over again it's kind of making me wanna drop a wet fish down his pants just to wake him up a little. :rolleyes:

[heystacy]

I was a fan for like 15 years, I started half way through his run on Doom Patrol. I completely hate his recent work. He might as well be writing General Hospital now.

I'd think he'd be better suited for Passions. :wink:

[Pink Bat Maxine]

On rereading it, I note that Superman has the gavel at the JLA meeting table, instead of Black Canary.

That's peevish.

[shrike]

I've been saying for years that Grant Morrison is terribly overrated.

[Cayman]

I've been saying for years that Grant Morrison is terribly overrated.

Not really, 98 percent of his work is exceptional.

[4thHorseman]

I thought it was a great setup issue. I wasn't reading it expecting it to be blowup. Morrison had stated, along with JG, that you notice a big change with the pace of the story around issue 2-3. After that it's all battle pretty much. So of course there's a set up issue. For those who are willing to throw it away after one issue...wow...maybe you should give up on comics.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I thought it was a great setup issue. I wasn't reading it expecting it to be blowup. Morrison had stated, along with JG, that you notice a big change with the pace of the story around issue 2-3. After that it's all battle pretty much. So of course there's a set up issue. For those who are willing to throw it away after one issue...wow...maybe you should give up on comics.

That's not really fair. I think most people have made pretty thoughtful critiques, and the questions they've mainly asked have been pretty fair ones. Seems most people are qualifying their opinions by acknowledging that it could, indeed, be very good. But things like JLA arresting supervillians who claim they're marching peacefully? That's not set up by anything in the book, and it's a fair critique to say 'what's going on there? He should have clarified.'

[RachelEvil]

EDIT: I haven't figured out how spoiler tags work here, so if you haven't read the comic AVERT YOUR EYES.

Just got it today and read it twice.

My (disjointed) thoughts:

IMO, it was damn good. Very dense, lots going on. A whole ton of plot points right off the bat. Very claustrophobic in most parts, a lot of enclosed things, very craped panels. A lot of playing with twos (although that could just be the way I read it. Still: Two cops, Turpin and Montoya, two sets of police figures, the Earth-bound ones and the Lanterns, two sets of Lanterns, Green and Alpha, two Green Lanterns (contacting two bodies of authority, two bodyguards at the club, two benificiaries of Metron's gift, two deaths, villains working in twos (Light and Mirror Master, Libra and the Human Flame, Light and that other guy I didn't recognize), two sets of outside forces observing (the Guardians and the Monitors), Mas y Menos, It's pretty two-riffic.). I like how Anthro and Libra almost mirror each other in a couple panels (makes sense, given exactly what both characters are doing). Was that Vandal Savage in the beginning sequence? I absolutely love the page where Stewart and Jordan are examining Orion's murder site. They have a bubble up to close it in (again with that!), and what's outside it? A Mister Miracle poster. Once again, Scott (or Shilo?) evades imprisonment. Also a very nice parallel in regards to Scott and Orion's roles in the New Genesis/Apokolips conflict: Orion is well inside, trapped mortally, and Scott is outside the violence, a conscientious objector.. Metron-as-Prometheus is a very cool idea. The first and last boys meet! Dark Side is creepy. I love that the toy guns (!) at the crime scene have a picture that looks amusingly like Turpin in his Boy Commando days on the box. The evolution of the Monitors is fascinating. A classic Morrison idea, regarding the relation of fiction and reality put a new way (and much more subtly than in, say Animal Man, The Invisibles, or Seven Soldiers). The beat-down on the Z-List Titans was amusing, but very, very expected. At least the injuries didn't look fatal there. Nice cameo from Rev. Al Sharpton. Fire is very clearly a big motif here. And there's a 23 in the background! :D

Plus, the art is abso-fricken-lutely gorgeous. Jones done good.

So, yeah, I'm pretty gushy about it.

[Tobias March]

I really enjoyed it. I loved the Hal and John scene. Morrison remembers the Lanterns are SpaceCops and runs with it. The Guardians dialogue I found pretty humourous.

Dark Side's "win" is so brutal.

[Paul McEnery]

it's a fair critique to say 'what's going on there? He should have clarified.'

That's half right.

Wanting clarification right away is a bit Carrie Fisher, if you know what I mean.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

That's half right.

Wanting clarification right away is a bit Carrie Fisher, if you know what I mean.

I disagree.

In the narrative form, it's reasonable to expect causation to be presented with effect.

If the central thrust of the Crisis was the supervillian march, it could be quite interesting to present effect, then slowly establish the cause. In a book where it's one plot point of many, the absence of cause creates dissonance, and not necessarily a pleasant or effective one.

[RachelEvil]

I disagree.

In the narrative form, it's reasonable to expect causation to be presented with effect.

If the central thrust of the Crisis was the supervillian march, it could be quite interesting to present effect, then slowly establish the cause. In a book where it's one plot point of many, the absence of cause creates dissonance, and not necessarily a pleasant or effective one.

The cause was to create a distraction. I thought that was very clear from what I read...

[Pink Bat Maxine]

The cause was to create a distraction. I thought that was very clear from what I read...

Okay. And the distraction strategy that these wanted felons who are eluding justice decided upon was to march peacefully down the street, where any officers of the law, let alone superheroes, would be duty-bound to try to take them back into custody? That being their strategy doesn't naturally flow from 'wanting to cause a distraction'. Sure, it's a really interesting idea, but even interesting ideas need to be supported.

[Tobias March]

I also found the dialogue between Mirror Master and Doctor Light really black humoured. But while it disturbed me, it also pointed out how delusional Light is - whereas the infamous stealing Dr. Light II's powers scene was far more sick and disturbed.

[juggling man]

Pardon the interjection. Three pages ago, some were discussing the earliest appearance of the gods in human form idea and I think that would the nephilim idea in the Bible.

ok I'm done inserting random stuff in threads I don't belong in.

[BnL]

Pardon the interjection. Three pages ago, some were discussing the earliest appearance of the gods in human form idea and I think that would the nephilim idea in the Bible.

ok I'm done inserting random stuff in threads I don't belong in.

I was never really referring to the gods-in-human-form thing alone, and I'm not sure why so many people assumed so, even after I clarified. But thank you for the interesting tidbit of information. :smile:

[Tobias March]

I was never really referring to the gods-in-human-form thing alone, and I'm not sure why so many people assumed so, even after I clarified. But thank you for the interesting tidbit of information. :smile:

I think the idea of the Nephilim is relevant here - there are references to angels falling from Heaven in both this and as Jack Zodiac pointed out in the All-Star Superman 11 thread that comic.

Grant's construing Crisis as some big Biblical epic with the Devil as a real, positively powerful force in the DCU. "He is in you all". Dark Side as the 'Bad God', made incarnate on earth; rapist supervillains joking about viagra; children transformed by the anti-life equation into thoughtless drones of unwill; the Monitors now also 'fallen' and one of their number condemned to mortality; finally Kamandi's doomed earth.

Metron's gift to Anthro shows the usual role of gods in human mythology. Humans are moved along and herded through history by their deities. I think Final Crisis is building to the gnosticism of Twilight of the Superheroes by Moore - anyone else catch the reference? - that man becomes self-sufficient and has to defeat the 'Bad Gods' unaided.

Now my question is this - how is this different from the Mageddon storyline from JLA?

[RachelEvil]

Okay. And the distraction strategy that these wanted felons who are eluding justice decided upon was to march peacefully down the street, where any officers of the law, let alone superheroes, would be duty-bound to try to take them back into custody? That being their strategy doesn't naturally flow from 'wanting to cause a distraction'. Sure, it's a really interesting idea, but even interesting ideas need to be supported.

Yeah. They march down the street, thus distracting said superheroes. *shrug* Made sense to me.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Yeah. They march down the street, thus distracting said superheroes. *shrug* Made sense to me.

Okay, so why are they choosing a plan that leads to almost certain incarceration over one that carries far less risk of that kind?

And Black Canary says 'Can you believe that'? How come none of the JLA say 'You know what? I can't believe that it's that simple, 'cause that was a spectacularly dumb move. Maybe we should investigate?'

Perhaps Issue #2 will explain the reasoning on both sides. However, I imagine Grant is simply revisiting some of his favorite themes: violence and entertainment. Brutality disguised as righteousness. (What is the first thing Anthro does when given fire from the Gods? Uses it as a weapon. The image of the soldier god dying among stacks of toy guns.... 'Super' guns, they're called, to even more heavily reference superhero comics.... etc.)

All this is great thematically. But I think it'll be a little 'messy' characterization if he just puts armed super-felons (obviously, Captain Cold used his cold gun; the one building's iced up) enacting a pretty dumb plan without further explanation.

YMMV.

[PatrickG]

Okay, so why are they choosing a plan that leads to almost certain incarceration over one that carries far less risk of that kind?

And Black Canary says 'Can you believe that'? How come none of the JLA say 'You know what? I can't believe that it's that simple, 'cause that was a spectacularly dumb move. Maybe we should investigate?'

Perhaps Issue #2 will explain the reasoning on both sides. However, I imagine Grant is simply revisiting some of his favorite themes: violence and entertainment. Brutality disguised as righteousness. (What is the first thing Anthro does when given fire from the Gods? Uses it as a weapon. The image of the soldier god dying among stacks of toy guns.... 'Super' guns, they're called, to even more heavily reference superhero comics.... etc.)

All this is great thematically. But I think it'll be a little 'messy' characterization if he just puts armed super-felons (obviously, Captain Cold used his cold gun; the one building's iced up) enacting a pretty dumb plan without further explanation.

YMMV.

I would imagine any hero who isn't a psycho might keep an eye on the whole thing but would respect the villains' right to a public airing of grievances and civil disobedience. Let them march, handle other stuff while keeping an eye on the parade and bust them afterwards.

After all the villains have been through over the years, they deserve to make their case to society that what they do isn't wrong but is simply a politically divergent philosophy.

And with the Crime Bible stuff, well... It may well be that super-villains have a freedom of religion argument to make.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I would imagine any hero who isn't a psycho might keep an eye on the whole thing but would respect the villains' right to a public airing of grievances and civil disobedience. Let them march, handle other stuff while keeping an eye on the parade and bust them afterwards.

I just plain disagree here. They're armed, they're presumably wanted (and if they're not, we need to see how they got amnesty or commuted sentences), and it would be the duty of the police to apprehend them on sight. If John Gotti escaped from prison and marched down the street in broad daylight, he'd be apprehended and taken back to jail as a simple matter of course. These are multiple murderers, who have been caught and tried for their crimes. I'd imagine the heroes would back up the police. Sure, the police shouldn't interrupt a simple protest march, but a simple protest march isn't made up of criminals on the lam, so this is apples to oranges. It's a great idea..... villains protesting brutality.... but it doesn't really hold up. My guess is that Grant was enchanted by the idea so he ignored all other considerations. I say great, go with the big idea.... but give some explanation to the obvious questions that follow.

But this might just be a point we'll not see eye to eye on, and that's fine.

[Tobias March]

I just plain disagree here. They're armed, they're presumably wanted (and if they're not, we need to see how they got amnesty or commuted sentences), and it would be the duty of the police to apprehend them on sight. If John Gotti escaped from prison and marched down the street in broad daylight, he'd be apprehended and taken back to jail as a simple matter of course. These are multiple murderers, who have been caught and tried for their crimes. I'd imagine the heroes would back up the police. It's a great idea..... villains protesting brutality.... but it doesn't really hold up. My guess is that Grant was enchanted by the idea so he ignored all other considerations. I say great, go with the big idea.... but give some explanation to the obvious questions that follow.

But this might just be a point we'll not see eye to eye on, and that's fine.

It might also be a dig at the DCU's expense by Grant after Identity Crisis - also noted by Gail in Villains United - that somehow the villains are more sympathetic than some of the heroes.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

The other obvious idea is that the villains were pulling a caper, and only using the 'peaceful march' story when the police arrived so as to not incriminate themselves in court.... it's pretty unclear just what actually lead up to that one panel. But the heroes' reaction makes me think that this isn't the most likely interpretation, that something unusual and not-a-matter-of-course was what led up to the panel.

Also, why was Empress caucasian? Or did I misread that? I thought she wore a gold mask? I'm unclear here. Was that a coloring blunder?

[Perry Holley]

EDIT: I haven't figured out how spoiler tags work hereType the spoilery stuff between a (spoil) and a (/spoil), but instead of using ( and ), instead use [ and ].

like this

If you're ever uncertain of how to use a certain function, hit the Quote button on a post that is using said function, and you should be able to see how the coding works.

[Charles RB]

It might also be a dig at the DCU's expense by Grant after Identity Crisis - also noted by Gail in Villains United - that somehow the villains are more sympathetic than some of the heroes.

I don't see that as being anything Identity Crisis did. Villains who lose more embarrassingly than the norm do often end up being viewed sympathetically by fans, as they're now the underdog.

[Tobias March]

I don't see that as being anything Identity Crisis did. Villains who lose more embarrassingly than the norm do often end up being viewed sympathetically by fans, as they're now the underdog.

I mention Identity Crisis because of Light and MM's dialogue referring to it. And I remember the conversation between Ollie and Catman in Villains United, which I thought was similar.

I raise it because I think it's tied to Darkseid's victory, so the world has been lost to evil, where villains are admirable.

[bert]

just finished it (finally, I sat down and read: Walking Dead #49, the last 6 issues of Action (the Legion crossover), and Final Crisis #1).

Absolutely gorgeous art. . but parts of the story left me scratching my head.

my take on the "mystery guy" waking up, was that he is the banished Monitor, now waking up in human form.

felt NOTHING re: what happens to J'Onn. . maybe because it seems like Morrison didn't care, so why should I ?

I loved the dialogue between Question/Turpin, and Libra/Luthor, as well as the teaming up of Mirror Master/Dr. Light (oh, how I hope Empress and Sparxx aren't dead!).

I'm in it for the long haul--I've asked my shop to pull all Final Crisis relating books for me. . .

but it's very unlike Didio to have a book come out so soon after Countdown and Death of the New Gods, that is going to COMPLETELY ignore what happened in those books (We all saw what happened to Orion already!. . why is Superman shocked. . he was there both times!).

[Charles RB]

finally, I sat down and read: Walking Dead #49

I should be getting that and lots of others in the post next week, and after #48 I am REALLY excited. Just when I was thinking "this storyline hasn't done nearly as much damage as it promised", BAM #47 and #48.

[LtMarvel]

just finished it (finally, I sat down and read: Walking Dead #49, the last 6 issues of Action (the Legion crossover), and Final Crisis #1).

Absolutely gorgeous art. . but parts of the story left me scratching my head.

my take on the "mystery guy" waking up, was that he is the banished Monitor, now waking up in human form.

felt NOTHING re: what happens to J'Onn. . maybe because it seems like Morrison didn't care, so why should I ?

I loved the dialogue between Question/Turpin, and Libra/Luthor, as well as the teaming up of Mirror Master/Dr. Light (oh, how I hope Empress and Sparxx aren't dead!).

I'm in it for the long haul--I've asked my shop to pull all Final Crisis relating books for me. . .

but it's very unlike Didio to have a book come out so soon after Countdown and Death of the New Gods, that is going to COMPLETELY ignore what happened in those books (We all saw what happened to Orion already!. . why is Superman shocked. . he was there both times!).
Think of it as the Chekov sequence in Star Trek 2. :)

[bert]

I should be getting that and lots of others in the post next week, and after #48 I am REALLY excited. Just when I was thinking "this storyline hasn't done nearly as much damage as it promised", BAM #47 and #48.

breather issue. . .

although it does very much reveal the fate of Michonne. .

looks like #50 is gonna be the biggie