Giant Size Astonishing X-men (spoilers)

[DDM]

I wonder what your reaction to this would have been if let's say.. Claremont wrote that plotline.

But all the years Chris Claremont wrote Cyclops he never had Charles Xavier--the most powerful telepath on Earth--fix his brain damage since it could not be fixed by telepathy. Heck, Phoenix never fixed Scott's brain damage & she had the infinite powers of the primal passion of the cosmos at her command. Therefore, it's rather a moot question.

Now, suddenly, Emma Frost suddenly telepathically fixes Scott's brain damage? I don't believe it. This pulls me out of Whedon's story.

[Old No.7]

Ok my bad, Lockheed wasn't listed as a traitor in the solicits but he was said to be a mole for SWORD. So Lockheed was spying on the people who had cared for him...we never learned why. Kinda weak if you ask me. The missing plot points really took away from this issue and the guest appearances by the other Marvel Universe characters took away from what coulda been more great character moments for the main cast.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

But all the years Chris Claremont wrote Cyclops he never had Charles Xavier--the most powerful telepath on Earth--fix his brain damage since it could not be fixed by telepathy. Heck, Phoenix never fixed Scott's brain damage & she had the infinite powers of the primal passion of the cosmos at her command. Therefore, it's rather a moot question.

Now, suddenly, Emma Frost suddenly telepathically fixes Scott's brain damage? I don't believe it. This pulls me out of Whedon's story.

Me also. The suggestion that Emma Frost could even compete on a similar level as those two is pretty laughable. I know that there have been many attempts to try and put Emma over as being being more powerful than she has been shown in the past but these have always been more in the arena of dreamscapes and psychic mind-screwing. NOT some kind of psychic neurosurgery. I can't buy into that. It just seems utterly ridiculous to me.

[rZi]

she didn't "fix" Scotts brain , she mearly showed him a suppressed memory. Or atleast thats what i got from it.... The memory of him choosing to make his powers uncontrolable...but then this kind of get flipped on it's head when he couldn't hold it any longer.

I don't think what i started typing turned out to be anything solid....wtfsck

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Well the logical thing in the X-Universe would be to do that. I mean I totally expect Vulcan to force Elixir to heal his eye/face when he comes to Earth.
It also forces the writers to progress from the 40 years of X-lore and focus on character flaws rather then physical flaws or build upon them like in the Joss/Scott thing in which Elixirs powers don't have an effect.

I mean look at X-Force:
Rhane just got an overdose of heroin, the logical thing to do is get Elixir.
Angel just lost his wings, get Elixir.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm ranting about. Elixir is a healer. He is not god. He can persuade a body to heal. And that's great. But there ARE limitations on his power. The belief that he can solve everything is nonsense. The idea that he could some how create bone, muscle, skin and circulatory and nervous systems required to fix an amputated limb - out of nothing - is equally mental.

What would truly be ridiculous is if the X-Men didn't utilize ALL their resources to solve a situation like Psylocke and her varying telekinesis levels which apparently have no finnese but she can alter herself on a molecular level to make herself invisible.

Sure, it's ridiculously vague. But I don't see it's any more or less ridiculous that Elixir 'healing' amputated limbs. :rolleyes:

[DDM]

Me also. The suggestion that Emma Frost could even compete on a similar level as those two is pretty laughable. I know that there have been many attempts to try and put Emma over as being being more powerful than she has been shown in the past but these have always been more in the arena of dreamscapes and psychic mind-screwing. NOT some kind of psychic neurosurgery. I can't buy into that. It just seems utterly ridiculous to me.

Emma Frost has performed psychic surgery on the New Mutants in The New Mutants #39 in an attempt to fix the psychic trauma of remembering being resurrected by the Beyonder; however, her psychic surgery is not literal. It's is fixing memories. She did some more psychic surgery in X-Treme X-Men #19-22 during the Elias Bogan "schism" arc.

This is also a contradiction to Whedon's explanation in Astonishing X-Men.

[DDM]

she didn't "fix" Scotts brain , she mearly showed him a suppressed memory. Or atleast thats what i got from it.... The memory of him choosing to make his powers uncontrolable...but then this kind of get flipped on it's head when he couldn't hold it any longer.

I don't think what i started typing turned out to be anything solid....wtfsck

Again, it's well established Scott's brain was damaged when he landed on his head after his father & mother's plane was abducted by the Shi'ar. This is not some repressed memory garbage, but well established fact.

Emma's telepathy can't fix Scott's brain damage anymore than Charles Xavier or Phoenix could.

[The Sword Is Drawn]

Emma Frost has performed psychic surgery on the New Mutants in The New Mutants #39 in an attempt to fix the psychic trauma of remembering being resurrected by the Beyonder; however, her psychic surgery is not literal. It's is fixing memories. She did some more psychic surgery in X-Treme X-Men #19-22 during the Elias Bogan "schism" arc.

Sadly, I have missed BOTH of these issues... :biggrin:

But yes, there is a world of difference between rearranging a fragmented mind and physically repairing brain damage - a physical injury to the brain.

[Pro]

A little Brain tissue damage is nothing when he regrew a Heart from nothing.

Just a stab in the dark but you're probably not a neurosurgeon, right .. ?

[Pro]

A little Brain tissue damage is nothing when he regrew a Heart from nothing.

Just a stab in the dark but you're probably not a neurosurgeon, right .. ?

[melodyrider]

Again, it's well established Scott's brain was damaged when he landed on his head after his father & mother's plane was abducted by the Shi'ar. This is not some repressed memory garbage, but well established fact.

Emma's telepathy can't fix Scott's brain damage anymore than Charles Xavier or Phoenix could.

Why not approach it from a different angle then?

Suppose, for instance, we maintain that his brain was damaged, and his brain's still damaged, but those who thought the brain damage was the cause of his lack of control were mistaken?

[flapjaxx]

Ok my bad, Lockheed wasn't listed as a traitor in the solicits but he was said to be a mole for SWORD. So Lockheed was spying on the people who had cared for him...we never learned why. Kinda weak if you ask me. The missing plot points really took away from this issue and the guest appearances by the other Marvel Universe characters took away from what coulda been more great character moments for the main cast.

Agreed. With all of these tossed off lauds and swooning about "Oh it was SO GREAT to see Whedon and Cassaday do Spider-Man. OoooOOOOO!", it really didn't amount to much. I mean, this is the end of an Astonishing X-Men run, so why the heck does it open with a splash page of Spider-Man talking about "I love New York City. No, I AM New York City." What the heck does that have to do with ANYTHING in this story arc? That was a huge amount of wasted space. It was neat but Whedon really undercut his opportunities to say something more about his characters and their storyline. Why spotlight such things? It's like Whedon said, "Hey, instead of really bringing my story to a meaningful, satisfying resolution let's spotlight SPIDER-MAN (he's kewl) and other characters that I've never used before! That makes sense!"

I still enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun. But in my opinion this last issue is a real sour note to end on. It feels like the giant-size ending issue said LESS about the characters than most (if not all) of the preceding issues.

[timbox]

Armor punched Wolverine in the face.

[pariah-1972]

Agreed. With all of these tossed off lauds and swooning about "Oh it was SO GREAT to see Whedon and Cassaday do Spider-Man. OoooOOOOO!", it really didn't amount to much. I mean, this is the end of an Astonishing X-Men run, so why the heck does it open with a splash page of Spider-Man talking about "I love New York City. No, I AM New York City." What the heck does that have to do with ANYTHING in this story arc? That was a huge amount of wasted space. It was neat but Whedon really undercut his opportunities to say something more about his characters and their storyline. Why spotlight such things? It's like Whedon said, "Hey, instead of really bringing my story to a meaningful, satisfying resolution let's spotlight SPIDER-MAN (he's kewl) and other characters that I've never used before! That makes sense!"

I still enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun. But in my opinion this last issue is a real sour note to end on. It feels like the giant-size ending issue said LESS about the characters than most (if not all) of the preceding issues.To be cynical i think they put Spider-man there as almost an application in some sense.

[HellFrost]

But all the years Chris Claremont wrote Cyclops he never had Charles Xavier--the most powerful telepath on Earth--fix his brain damage since it could not be fixed by telepathy. Heck, Phoenix never fixed Scott's brain damage & she had the infinite powers of the primal passion of the cosmos at her command. Therefore, it's rather a moot question.

Now, suddenly, Emma Frost suddenly telepathically fixes Scott's brain damage? I don't believe it. This pulls me out of Whedon's story.
Xavier never tried to fix his problems. He tried to allow Cyclops to heal himself. That sounds great in retrospect but... it's been how many years? At least Emma does take a more direct approach. Also, Jean was all about Jean and her problems when she had the Phoenix Force (and rightfully so, of course).
Me also. The suggestion that Emma Frost could even compete on a similar level as those two is pretty laughable. I know that there have been many attempts to try and put Emma over as being being more powerful than she has been shown in the past but these have always been more in the arena of dreamscapes and psychic mind-screwing. NOT some kind of psychic neurosurgery. I can't buy into that. It just seems utterly ridiculous to me.
It's even more laughable that you should make a comment like that without any proof to back your statement up. Emma's definitely been shown to be as powerful as Xavier many a times and has been stated as such many more. She doesn't utilize her full power because she doesn't need to most of the time.
Emma Frost has performed psychic surgery on the New Mutants in The New Mutants #39 in an attempt to fix the psychic trauma of remembering being resurrected by the Beyonder; however, her psychic surgery is not literal. It's is fixing memories. She did some more psychic surgery in X-Treme X-Men #19-22 during the Elias Bogan "schism" arc.

This is also a contradiction to Whedon's explanation in Astonishing X-Men.

Emma Frost has shown the ability to heal herself. She was in a coma after having a building fall on her. Telepathy has also been shown to alter DNA and cause people to become more rabid and feral looking.

[Old No.7]

Agreed. With all of these tossed off lauds and swooning about "Oh it was SO GREAT to see Whedon and Cassaday do Spider-Man. OoooOOOOO!", it really didn't amount to much. I mean, this is the end of an Astonishing X-Men run, so why the heck does it open with a splash page of Spider-Man talking about "I love New York City. No, I AM New York City." What the heck does that have to do with ANYTHING in this story arc? That was a huge amount of wasted space. It was neat but Whedon really undercut his opportunities to say something more about his characters and their storyline. Why spotlight such things? It's like Whedon said, "Hey, instead of really bringing my story to a meaningful, satisfying resolution let's spotlight SPIDER-MAN (he's kewl) and other characters that I've never used before! That makes sense!"

I still enjoyed it. It was a lot of fun. But in my opinion this last issue is a real sour note to end on. It feels like the giant-size ending issue said LESS about the characters than most (if not all) of the preceding issues.

Exactly. I opened up this issue and I see a double page spread of Spider-Man...I loved the first 24 issues, but this really was not a good book end to this run.

[jeannie]

Xavier never tried to fix his problems. He tried to allow Cyclops to heal himself. That sounds great in retrospect but... it's been how many years? At least Emma does take a more direct approach. Also, Jean was all about Jean and her problems when she had the Phoenix Force (and rightfully so, of course).

It's even more laughable that you should make a comment like that without any proof to back your statement up. Emma's definitely been shown to be as powerful as Xavier many a times and has been stated as such many more. She doesn't utilize her full power because she doesn't need to most of the time.


Emma Frost has shown the ability to heal herself. She was in a coma after having a building fall on her. Telepathy has also been shown to alter DNA and cause people to become more rabid and feral looking.

Both Jean and Xavier worked with Scott to try to help him with his powers. The ruby glasses didn't come from nowhere. Plus, the Phoenix Force posing as Jean bounced around in his brain a great deal - she held back his powers, but even she couldn't fix them.

And Emma isn't as powerful as Rachel, so there is no way she's as powerful as Jean or Charles. That's Emma's own admission.

The idea that telepathy could alter DNA is a serious problem with telepathy in general. It's a move to make the ability far too powerful and leads to a whole lot of telepaths getting removed or depowered. Bleh.

[HellFrost]

Both Jean and Xavier worked with Scott to try to help him with his powers. The ruby glasses didn't come from nowhere. Plus, the Phoenix Force posing as Jean bounced around in his brain a great deal - she held back his powers, but even she couldn't fix them.

And Emma isn't as powerful as Rachel, so there is no way she's as powerful as Jean or Charles. That's Emma's own admission.

The idea that telepathy could alter DNA is a serious problem with telepathy in general. It's a move to make the ability far too powerful and leads to a whole lot of telepaths getting removed or depowered. Bleh.

I'm not going to argue with you over Xavier and Jean helping Scott because I think that they both could have helped him a lot more than they did.

I will, however, tell you that Rachel is obviously more powerful than Xavier and Jean but lacks the skills and finesse to over-power either of them. Emma is just as powerful as Xavier was (before his power boost from the M'Kraan).

And telepathy most certainly can do those things. Biokinetics are a product of the mind transforming and evolving the body. Telepathy is the most powerful psionic power you could have. It's a gateway to all other psionic abilities, such as psychometry, empathy, biokinesis (to a much more limited level), telesthesia, astral projection, etc. Emma has a power and learned to use it in as many ways as possible.

Also, Selene was able to telepathically seize control over the HellFire Club members and transform them into her own blood hounds. She did so with just her telepathy alone and it states it in the issue.

[jeannie]

You're entitled to your opinion of course but if you want to use comics to ground your arguments, there are some you shouldn't ignore. Like all of the comics saying that Charles is the world's most powerful telepath. And the many comics that said Jean was second and could rival him. I don't remember that being said about Rachel. Jean/Phoenix has schooled Emma telepathically twice and Emma was demonstrated to not be powerful enough to house the Phoenix, making her less powerful than both Jean and Rachel.

I'm sorry but I have to agree with DDM. The Emma/Scott powers thing really wasn't believable at all.

And I'm not saying that telepathy can't be all powerful. Writers can do whatever they want. Selene is such an incredibly muddled character in terms of power that she's a perfect example. Just b/c writers can do something doesn't mean that they should. Ultra-powerful characters in the X-world tend to die, get turned evil or sent into limbo. Surely you've noticed the precipitice drop in the quantity of telepaths hanging with the X-men in recent years.

[Pro]

Emma is just as powerful as Xavier was (before his power boost from the M'Kraan).

They don't call Xavier the world's most powerfull telepath for nothing. So no. No amount of fanworship makes Emma as powerfull as Xavier.

Biokinetics are a product of the mind transforming and evolving the body.

Biokinesis is not a telepathic power. It's a telekinetic power, as in kinetic as in moving objects or in this case molecules. Telepathy doesn't move anything.

[ExodusCloak]

Just a stab in the dark but you're probably not a neurosurgeon, right .. ?

Nope a Medicinal Chemist/Physiologist/Doctor in training, but given that the Cuckoos dumped McCoys knowledge into Elixirs head, and Elixir was shown to create specialized tissue (Heart tissue) and regrew it from nothing and then taking the fact that not only was it the right size but he got the dimensions right as well I'd say fixing minor brain tissue damage would be a walk in the park for him.

she didn't "fix" Scotts brain , she mearly showed him a suppressed memory. Or atleast thats what i got from it.... The memory of him choosing to make his powers uncontrolable...but then this kind of get flipped on it's head when he couldn't hold it any longer.

I don't think what i started typing turned out to be anything solid....wtfsck

Co-signed. Xavier and Jean in all their glory and Phoenixy might just didn't see said memory because they never looked as his black bug room. As for Jean and their psychic link, as shown in Morrisons run, Jean knew Scott but she didn't actually know his darker side which he suppressed. She never knew about his black bug room that's where he suppressed the memory.


Biokinesis is not a telepathic power. It's a telekinetic power, as in kinetic as in moving objects or in this case molecules. Telepathy doesn't move anything.

I'm not sure what to call it but HellFrost does make a valid point. Telepathy can be used to control the metabolic functions in the body that's how Emma was able to bootstrap her own brain chemistry. That's how telepaths dampen pain, by controlling the transport messengers in the synapses.
Theoretically stem cells could actually fix brain damage so if a telepath was to mess with the metabolic pathways they could technically do it but I don't think that was really necessary in this story.
And while Rachel did use telekinesis to alter her DNA a telepath could probably do it as well as DNA replication, transcription and translation can are carried out via transport molecules which are controlled by metabolic pathways.

Emma was demonstrated to not be powerful enough to house the Phoenix

Umm do you remember in Warsong where Celeste became a host...well look at Warsong to see the reason why Celeste could act as a host. Then look at that What if Vulcan became the Phoenix and see what Rachel tells him when he can't host it. "The Phoenix Force reacts poorly to negative emotions"...it consumes the person. There's your reason as to why Vulcan couldn't, why Emma couldn't, why Phoebe couldn't, why Mindee couldn't but Celeste could.

[timbox]

Emma prevented Xavier from even using his powers in WWH: X-Men. That's pretty powerful if you ask me.

[Old No.7]

Emma prevented Xavier from even using his powers in WWH: X-Men. That's pretty powerfull if you ask me.

Herpes enhances mutant powers.

[HellFrost]

You're entitled to your opinion of course but if you want to use comics to ground your arguments, there are some you shouldn't ignore. Like all of the comics saying that Charles is the world's most powerful telepath. And the many comics that said Jean was second and could rival him. I don't remember that being said about Rachel. Jean/Phoenix has schooled Emma telepathically twice and Emma was demonstrated to not be powerful enough to house the Phoenix, making her less powerful than both Jean and Rachel.

Well, that is a completely reasonable thought processes. However, I do wish to point out that Rachel is normally forgotten about when such statements are being made. Rachel is supposed to be more powerful than Jean and Xavier because that is exactly what Claremont intended. Same goes for Emma. Rachel has never shown me any evidence to make me think otherwise.

And as for Emma not being powerful enough to house the Phoenix Force, Jean didn't do too good a job herself once the Phoenix became tainted with the pleasure and lusts of man. It was hungry with lust and a need for power. I saw nothing that stated otherwise.

I'm sorry but I have to agree with DDM. The Emma/Scott powers thing really wasn't believable at all.


I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

And I'm not saying that telepathy can't be all powerful. Writers can do whatever they want. Selene is such an incredibly muddled character in terms of power that she's a perfect example. Just b/c writers can do something doesn't mean that they should. Ultra-powerful characters in the X-world tend to die, get turned evil or sent into limbo. Surely you've noticed the precipitice drop in the quantity of telepaths hanging with the X-men in recent years.
I haven't noticed a decreased number of telepaths because Jean was all power as it was with the Phoenix, which always spells out death for her (a prime example as to why Jean should be completely severed from the Force at all costs upon her return), Xavier was a victim of a huge crossover event, and Rachel is still around, she's just in space, and will most likely free her other teammates and join the rest of the X-Men once they get back.

[Old No.7]

I haven't noticed a decreased number of telepaths because Jean was all power as it was with the Phoenix, which always spells out death for her (a prime example as to why Jean should be completely severed from the Force at all costs upon her return),

I agree 1000000%

[Anna]

I doubt most writers even know that Storm and Kitty had a mother/daughter relationship.

Silly me, expecting writers to familiarize themselves with the books they inherit...

[Pro]

Emma prevented Xavier from even using his powers in WWH: X-Men. That's pretty powerfull if you ask me.

Nah, she blocked him temporarily, then threatened to stop him with the help of the cuckoos. So she knew she had no hope of blocking him if he resisted with his full power.

Elixir was shown to create specialized tissue (Heart tissue) and regrew it from nothing and then taking the fact that not only was it the right size but he got the dimensions right as well I'd say fixing minor brain tissue damage would be a walk in the park for him.

The heart is a fairly simple organ compared to the brain.

[ExodusCloak]

The heart is a fairly simple organ compared to the brain.

He's not creating a whole knew brain, he's fixing damaged brain tissue and when you consider that Scotts still functions properly the damage may not even be that severe but again he has ALL of Beasts knowledge. As for creating a whole new brain I don't see why not If Exodus can do it, Elixir with Beast knowledge should be able to as well. I don't think there would be any activity in the brain but he'd probably be able to create the organ.
They took off those limitations on Elixirs powers when the Cuckoos dumped Beasts knowledge into him. He reached a point where he's able to feel his cells dividing and dying in mitosis.

[jeannie]

Well, that is a completely reasonable thought processes. However, I do wish to point out that Rachel is normally forgotten about when such statements are being made. Rachel is supposed to be more powerful than Jean and Xavier because that is exactly what Claremont intended. Same goes for Emma. Rachel has never shown me any evidence to make me think otherwise.

And as for Emma not being powerful enough to house the Phoenix Force, Jean didn't do too good a job herself once the Phoenix became tainted with the pleasure and lusts of man. It was hungry with lust and a need for power. I saw nothing that stated otherwise.

I am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours.

I haven't noticed a decreased number of telepaths because Jean was all power as it was with the Phoenix, which always spells out death for her (a prime example as to why Jean should be completely severed from the Force at all costs upon her return), Xavier was a victim of a huge crossover event, and Rachel is still around, she's just in space, and will most likely free her other teammates and join the rest of the X-Men once they get back.

Emma says "Phoenix inside me. Burning me up... Burning me out. I'm not strong enough" (Endsong #4).
Jean says "I am you. Don't you remember? Now get out of that stupid body." (#5)
Slight difference there. Phoenix won't burn out Jean's body b/c Jean has the power to handle it, challenge that it may be. And I notice you conceded the 2x that Jean/Phoenix owned Emma completely in a duel. No contest.

And where do you get that Claremont intended Rachel to be a more powerful TP? And since when does author intent, if it doesn't make it into the canon, matter?

Xavier depowered, Jean gone, Rachel gone, Psylocke switched powers and in another dimension, 2 cuckoos dead... and you don't notice a shortage of telepaths? Really? I guess it's b/c all their powers are being channelled into Emma to make her the top X-woman.

It's funny how Jean fans want her to be weakened so she can become a viable part of the X-universe again but Emma fans want to believe she's omnipotent.

[Pro]

If Exodus can do it, Elixir with Beast knowledge should be able to as well.

Oh i know, i just don't think that because he can recreate a heart he automatically should be able to heal brain damage with as much ease. One heart can be replaced by another heart but how would you go about replacing a unique set of neural pathways unless you knew exactly how they were build up prior to the damage?

Exodus stored Xavier's thoughts and memories into his own mind and then used that as a template to recreate their physical counterpart. Even then it is clear some of it was lost.
But Elixer for all his healing power is not a telepath. How would he know how to recreate a unique set of neural pathways?

[ExodusCloak]

Oh i know, i just don't think that because he can recreate a heart he automatically should be able to heal brain damage with as much ease. One heart can be replaced by another heart but how would you go about replacing a unique set of neural pathways with an entirely different set?

Exodus stored Xavier's thoughts and memories into his own mind and then used that as a template to recreate their physical counterpart.
But Elixer for all his healing power is not a telepath. How would he know how to recreate a unique set of neural pathways?

But that's the thing he's not healing the mental aspect of the brain his job would be fixing the physical aspects. The damaged neurons would still be there to give him a structural idea of how the neural pathways should look that's how we plan on eventually fixing brain tissue damage with stem cells. Healing the already present damaged brain cells should in turn fix the damaged neural pathways.

As for growing a random useless brain organ, he probably could generate a normal brain with random neural parthways but I don't think he could create a brain which is identical to another individual unless he's somehow able to see/study/remember every cell in that individuals body and remember where that every cells goes and then even after that there's still the matter of a "soul".

I wonder if he could create an egg and sperm cell and then fertilize it. Then grow and organic womb.

[Red Lotus]

Again, it's well established Scott's brain was damaged when he landed on his head after his father & mother's plane was abducted by the Shi'ar. This is not some repressed memory garbage, but well established fact.

Emma's telepathy can't fix Scott's brain damage anymore than Charles Xavier or Phoenix could.

In Wolverine 101 it is Implied that Scott brain damage was fixed after another bump to the head. So maybe Emma didnt fix anything and Scott has been holding back since then.

[Pro]

The damaged neurons would still be there to give him a structural idea of how the neural pathways should look that's how we plan on eventually fixing brain tissue damage with stem cells.

Well, i'm no brainsurgeon either :). But wouldn't damaged neural pathways eventually deteriorate? I know undamaged neural pathways can change and make new connections, not entirely clear on how damaged pathways react though. I know other pathways are sometimes formed to take over functions of damaged pathways but not sure what happens to the damaged pathways.

[G. Wayne]

I like to think I'm a big fan of Whedon. I love Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. Runaways was... okay... before the delays kicked in. Astonishing had it ups and downs. The Grand finale of AXM though? Call me unimpressed with this. When you break down a lot of Whedon's material, it's not his overall plots (which can be downright wtf goofy) it's his strength in the execution that makes it shine through.

So Schmucko the Alien Guy on an alien world, who knows how far away from Earth, decided that Colossus would be a swell guy to manufacture a world ending prophecy around since his alien people suck. The X-Men learn of this, and head off to the planet. Meanwhile, the aliens also decide it would be neat to fire a GIANT BULLET OF DOOM at Earth. Hold up here. Nevermind that prophecy thing. We're firing a giant bullet through space at another planet. Kitty Pryde gets stuck in the GBoD, (which was the plan of the aliens? I was kind of fuzzy on that.) and rides it to earth.

The remaining X-Men assemble Earth's heroes, but someone/thing mindscrews all the non-X-Men, leaving Emma Frost to be the mind link to Kitty. Banter aside, Kitty manages to get the GIANT BULLET OF DOOM to phase through the Earth. Long story hand waved to be one page long, the GBoD is still going through space. And Strange and Reed Richards can't stop it. And Kitty may be fused with the GBoD now anyway.

*That* was Whedon's master plan?! I waited like 4 years for this?! I know there's suspension of disbelief (which can only go so far) and comic book logic and all that, but I have my limits as to what I handle with a plot. You can coat it with witty banter all you want, this was just too silly for me.

[dotdotdot]

you guys are arguing as if emma healed something physical. i though they laid out the possibility of some sort of natural healing, the rest was due to psychology.

[darknessatnoon]

you guys are arguing as if emma healed something physical. i though they laid out the possibility of some sort of natural healing, the rest was due to psychology.

Right. I agree with this. Emma was able to help him make a psychological breakthrough because she has a greater understanding of what makes Scott ticks than Jean or the Professor ever had.

[DDM]

you guys are arguing as if emma healed something physical. i though they laid out the possibility of some sort of natural healing, the rest was due to psychology.

Emma did heal Scott's physical brain damage using her telepathy. Hence, the big whopper contradiction...

[Old No.7]

Emma did heal Scott's physical brain damage using her telepathy. Hence, the big whopper contradiction...

I didn't read that in the text...where are we getting this?

[darknessatnoon]

I didn't read that in the text...where are we getting this?

Oh, he's making it up. In some old comic Professor X once said Cyclops can't control his blasts because of brain damage. All that means was that the professor was being too lazy to go in and fix what was really wrong. Anyway, there is something called brain surgery. Professor X could have broken out the credit cards for some of that, too. But he was too busy spending money on new ways to enslave Danger.

[Come To Deathstrike]

Emma frost has the ability to perform "psychic surgery"
Don't know how, don't know why.
But this is a fact.
She's like Nurse Annie but not a complete waste of oxygen.

Professor X probably could have done it, but was busy perving over the birds in the garden.
Sorry, space birds

[darknessatnoon]

Emma frost has the ability to perform "psychic surgery"
Don't know how, don't know why.
But this is a fact.
She's like Nurse Annie but not a complete waste of oxygen.

Professor X probably could have done it, but was busy perving over the birds in the garden.
Sorry, space birds

He likes all kinds of birds. He has a special telepathic rapport with them. Pigeons included.

http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh227/darknessatnoon/birdy.jpg

[DeniseXfrost]

It isn't. A few people started saying that maybe Elixir could have fixed Scott's injury off panel. I said that was ridiculous, and that if we were to have Elixir magically fixing EVERYbody, what would be the point?

I fail to see where the confusion is, here.
LOL You totally didn't get the irony.

[Omega Alpha]

Oh, he's making it up. In some old comic Professor X once said Cyclops can't control his blasts because of brain damage. All that means was that the professor was being too lazy to go in and fix what was really wrong. Anyway, there is something called brain surgery. Professor X could have broken out the credit cards for some of that, too. But he was too busy spending money on new ways to enslave Danger.

Yeah, the retcon works just fine if Xavier was so much of a bastard that if he was not lazy, like you're saying, but rather so much of a bastard that he chose to lie to Scott because it would fit better with his plans.

The problem is, well, that this way the retcon makes Xavier so much of a bastard that he chose to lie to Scott because it would fit better with his plans.

[Affinity]

Cassaday draws a really cool Storm. Not pretty but fiiiierce. Strong. Like any good tranny diva!

[HellFrost]

They don't call Xavier the world's most powerfull telepath for nothing. So no. No amount of fanworship makes Emma as powerfull as Xavier.Whoa. Don't be rude. I don't appreciate it.

As for Emma being that powerful. Read most of Gen X. She's considered a "psi of the highest order," "top class telepath," and the like.

And again. Don't Be. Rude.
Biokinesis is not a telepathic power. It's a telekinetic power, as in kinetic as in moving objects or in this case molecules. Telepathy doesn't move anything.
I personally don't agree. I believe that the mind forces the body to transform and evolve. I think this might just be a matter of opinion, since it's pretty much a made up ability. Until it is proven otherwise, I will continue to understand it as a telepathic power. Especially since, it's considered to be able to make one smarter and enhance ones natural skills and abilities. Something telepaths are capable of.
Emma prevented Xavier from even using his powers in WWH: X-Men. That's pretty powerful if you ask me.
She caused a degree of psi-static to block him out (something she's proven capable of doing when she was in a coma) and then let her... daughters (ugh!) keep him at bay with the same method. It does show a level of strength from her part however, since Xavier did gain a power boost. And the Cuckoos are no pushovers themselves.
Emma says "Phoenix inside me. Burning me up... Burning me out. I'm not strong enough" (Endsong #4).
Jean says "I am you. Don't you remember? Now get out of that stupid body." (#5)
Slight difference there. Phoenix won't burn out Jean's body b/c Jean has the power to handle it, challenge that it may be.
Jean has been with the Phoenix Force for a very long time and has a very strong will because of this. Jean was helpless when she went Dark phoenix. Emma took on the Phoenix when it was already tainted, and growing in power from Scott... feeding it. What did you expect to happen? Jean's willpower and control over the Phoenix Force is and should always be unmatched. I never said otherwise. But to think that Emma, who has been stated on numerous occasion to be one of the most powerful telepaths on the planet, can't handle it? I just don't agree.
And I notice you conceded the 2x that Jean/Phoenix owned Emma completely in a duel. No contest.

Ok........... RUDE! Do you people get off on being nasty to others in a what's suppose to be a friendly environment for people to talk and discuss a topic. Which is exactly what I'm doing, btw. Don't be rude to me again. Especially when I wasn't to you.

How could Jean NOT over power Emma with a cosmic entity that represents all life in the UNIVERSE? You admitted in your own post that it was Jean hopped up on the Phoenix Force.

And where do you get that Claremont intended Rachel to be a more powerful TP? And since when does author intent, if it doesn't make it into the canon, matter?Xavier created Rachel to be of Grey and Summers DNA. Summers DNA is/was a power amplifier. That is where I got the idea from. That and she was much more powerful without the Phoenix Force, than he or anyone prior to this had shown Jean to be without the Phoenix Force.

Xavier depowered, Jean gone, Rachel gone, Psylocke switched powers and in another dimension, 2 cuckoos dead... and you don't notice a shortage of telepaths? Really? I guess it's b/c all their powers are being channelled into Emma to make her the top X-woman.
I already said my piece about not being rude to me so I won't retaliate here except to say that you sound really petty and nasty for no reason.

Xavier was repowered (WITH a power boost), Jean died because she had the Phoenix (which is what always happens), Rachel is still alive and will be back (unfortunately), Psylocke switched powers a very long time ago and STILL died. She came back and is worse now due to PIS (Plot Induced Stupidity) and EMS (Editorily Mandated Stupidity). She sells as an Asian TK.

It's funny how Jean fans want her to be weakened so she can become a viable part of the X-universe again but Emma fans want to believe she's omnipotent.
I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Are you talking about Emma or Jean?

Guess what honey, I'm a huge fan of both. I think that Jean should lose the Phoenix Force (Indefinitely) so that her powers are lowered to a non-character-death threatening level, so that I may once again read my beloved Jean in a comic book without fear of her dying again. And I feel passionately about Emma's power status because I am an adamant fan of hers and I have never seen her described as nothing short as one of the best and most powerful.
Cassaday draws a really cool Storm. Not pretty but fiiiierce. Strong. Like any good tranny diva!

I agree. I think he did a fabulous job with her.

[darknessatnoon]

As for Emma being that powerful. Read most of Gen X. She's considered a "psi of the highest order," "top class telepath," and the like.

Even before Gen X, Emma always gave Xavier a run for his money. Just because he runs around telling everyone he's the most powerful, doesn't mean we should buy it. People should show some skepticism and stop falling for all of Xavier's self-promotion.

[dotdotdot]

Yeah, the retcon works just fine if Xavier was so much of a bastard that if he was not lazy, like you're saying, but rather so much of a bastard that he chose to lie to Scott because it would fit better with his plans.

The problem is, well, that this way the retcon makes Xavier so much of a bastard that he chose to lie to Scott because it would fit better with his plans.

you really can't even use the term retcon to describe this in any convincing way

[darknessatnoon]

you really can't even use the term retcon to describe this in any convincing way

Yes. He was always pretty much a bastard to them. Like the time he pretended he was dead for a while. Or when he thought about putting the moves on Jean. Or when he sent Petra and Sway off to die. Or when he degraded Tessa. Or when he killed his sister. He's not a good a guy.

[jeannie]

Umm do you remember in Warsong where Celeste became a host...well look at Warsong to see the reason why Celeste could act as a host. Then look at that What if Vulcan became the Phoenix and see what Rachel tells him when he can't host it. "The Phoenix Force reacts poorly to negative emotions"...it consumes the person. There's your reason as to why Vulcan couldn't, why Emma couldn't, why Phoebe couldn't, why Mindee couldn't but Celeste could.

I honestly try to ignore what happened in Warsong. The idea that the Phoenix Force reacts poorly to negative emotions really doesn't make any sense when Rachel, someone who was able to wield the force with great skill, was an almost constant outlet of negative emotions at her introduction and throughout her run. My comment that Emma wasn't powerful enough to house the Phoenix Force was based upon what Emma said - it's quoted elsewhere on this thread. She herself said she wasn't powerful enough.

[HellFrost]

Even before Gen X, Emma always gave Xavier a run for his money. Just because he runs around telling everyone he's the most powerful, doesn't mean we should buy it. People should show some skepticism and stop falling for all of Xavier's self-promotion.
LOL. You win!:biggrin:
Yes. He was always pretty much a bastard to them. Like the time he pretended he was dead for a while. Or when he thought about putting the moves on Jean. Or when he sent Petra and Sway off to die. Or when he degraded Tessa. Or when he killed his sister. He's not a good a guy.
Don't forget about him going into Scott's head and removing a memory without thinking of what that would do to Scott once he found out. And in a soap opera... everything comes out eventually.
I honestly try to ignore what happened in Warsong. The idea that the Phoenix Force reacts poorly to negative emotions really doesn't make any sense when Rachel, someone who was able to wield the force with great skill, was an almost constant outlet of negative emotions at her introduction and throughout her run. My comment that Emma wasn't powerful enough to house the Phoenix Force was based upon what Emma said - it's quoted elsewhere on this thread. She herself said she wasn't powerful enough.

I hated Warsong with a HUGE passion as well. I understand what you say when she says she's not powerful enough, but it's also after it's taken on all the lust and greed from humanity and after Scott was making it stronger by blasting it with his full optic blasts. (which DOESN'T make sense in the least.......)

[jeannie]

Ok........... RUDE! Do you people get off on being nasty to others in a what's suppose to be a friendly environment for people to talk and discuss a topic. Which is exactly what I'm doing, btw. Don't be rude to me again. Especially when I wasn't to you.

Actually, telling people that your point of view is "obvious" and that you aren't going to discuss certain topics with them, both of which you said to me, certainly reads as rude. I really don't think that I was any ruder to you than you were to me. Seeing that you decide to ramp up the rudeness with calling me honey and petty and nasty, you clearly don't have a problem with retaliation and shouldn't fault me for doing so. However, I don't want a fight and if I offended you, you have my apology.

I took the time to research and use quotes in order to support my points and treated your views seriously. I think you rely too much on your conjecture and interpretations (claiming first the Claremont INTENDED Rachel to be more powerful and then explaining that intent is just your interpretation rather than based on something in writing is one example) while claiming that I'm being rude. Not taking my points seriously and dismissing them so casually is, in my opinion, far more rude.

[dotdotdot]

Yes. He was always pretty much a bastard to them. Like the time he pretended he was dead for a while. Or when he thought about putting the moves on Jean. Or when he sent Petra and Sway off to die. Or when he degraded Tessa. Or when he killed his sister. He's not a good a guy.

oh i wasn't referring to that

[Anna]

Oh, he's making it up. In some old comic Professor X once said Cyclops can't control his blasts because of brain damage. All that means was that the professor was being too lazy to go in and fix what was really wrong. Anyway, there is something called brain surgery. Professor X could have broken out the credit cards for some of that, too. But he was too busy spending money on new ways to enslave Danger.


Back in New Mutants #25 Xavier controlled Rogue's powers to have her touch Sunspot and ONLY absorb the powers of Cloak that had been transferred to him, while leaving his own powers and conciousness intact. But he never could cure her....

[jeannie]

Yeah, the retcon works just fine if Xavier was so much of a bastard that if he was not lazy, like you're saying, but rather so much of a bastard that he chose to lie to Scott because it would fit better with his plans.

The problem is, well, that this way the retcon makes Xavier so much of a bastard that he chose to lie to Scott because it would fit better with his plans.

My biggest problem with this "Emma helped Scott psychologically so he could control his powers" idea is the fact that she apparently did this while attacking him. She was out to take him apart - making him look like Logan, making Logan out to be the love of Jean's life, appearing like Jean - acts all done to hurt and anger him while apparently also doing this wonderful thing for him in helping him to understand his power problems. That really doesn't make any sense within the context of the story. If Emma and Scott were just talking and training, maybe, but I don't think that she would offer insight into his powers and ultimately help him while simulateneously taking him down.

And the theory that Emma did help Scott just doesn't explain why he would then have to return to his visor. If anything, he would appear to be more like Surge, someone who needs help controlling the energy because his eyes are constantly absorbing solar energy, which is how his power was explained back in Giant Sized Uncanny #1's extra story about him. And once that happens, his lack of control isn't mental, it's physiological.

I think that a more satisfying interpretation of the story (since Whedon really didn't bother to explain anything) was that Scott expended all of the energy that he had stored up while he was being manipulated by Emma. The bug room scene is Scott's complete expenditure of his stored power, something that he would never do if he had control. That would explain why her journey through his mind is completely red until they reach the scene where he is a kid sitting in his bed supposedly "deciding." When Scott uses up all of his power, she gives him the image of himself as a child. At that point, with all of his power gone, Scott physically and mentally exhausted (according to Giant Sized Uncanny #1), which would explain the drooling and lethargy in the next couple of issues. Scott's mentally and physically vulnerable, he trusts Emma and she leads him down this path that may or may not be true, in order to get him to be a slobbering mess unable to move for a while. The rest of the story is him gradually rebuilding the power supply and, even with the expenditures of power, he can't continue to hold it back b/c his eyes are constantly absorbing. Therefore, he has to go back to the mask b/c he "can't hold it back anymore" as explained in Giant Sized Astonishing.

Jeez, that is a lot of work, but it still makes more sense than the Emma temporarily helping him make some psychological break that only temporarily gave him control over his powers. It's too much like children being manipulated by psychiatrists into saying that they have been abused. The children haven't really been abused but they are manipulated and bullied by individuals within positions of power to the point that they start to believe that the lie introduced to them is true. She gets him to say that he decided that he wouldn't have control as a kid and she rewards him with a kiss - that is exactly the type of brilliant, Machiavellian strategy that Emma would use to take him down and being someone with a psychological background and a TP, she would be aware of the phenomenon of false, implanted memories.

[HellFrost]

Actually, telling people that your point of view is "obvious" and that you aren't going to discuss certain topics with them, both of which you said to me, certainly reads as rude. I really don't think that I was any ruder to you than you were to me. Seeing that you decide to ramp up the rudeness with calling me honey and petty and nasty, you clearly don't have a problem with retaliation and shouldn't fault me for doing so. However, I don't want a fight and if I offended you, you have my apology.

I took the time to research and use quotes in order to support my points and treated your views seriously. I think you rely too much on your conjecture and interpretations (claiming first the Claremont INTENDED Rachel to be more powerful and then explaining that intent is just your interpretation rather than based on something in writing is one example) while claiming that I'm being rude. Not taking my points seriously and dismissing them so casually is, in my opinion, far more rude.
Well, My fault for telling you I wasn't going to argue a point that I felt was going to just become an endless spiral of uncomfortable debate and possible arguing. And for the record, I did lose my patience by calling you honey and for that I apologize. I did not feel as though i was being rude, but i apologize anyway since you obviously feel differently. I most certainly didn't dismiss your points, these are things I have debated on many times before.

I also apologize for not using references since my collection is currently at a friends house since I have no room in my own. I can't read, or list, or state issue numbers and I cannot scan since I don't possess a scanner anymore. I use what I have stored in my memory. I feel as though I do a pretty good job of using examples from memory, considering my situation. If what I say is wrong in any way, I expect to have it pointed out to me, as this has happened on many occasions and I have apologized for getting facts wrong afterwards...

As for Rachel, I have yet to see any evidence supporting that Jean (minus Phoenix) is stronger than her. I do go by what is written and part of understanding comics is interpretation. Not everything is spelled out for you. Most things are left up for the reader to decide or see what they will.

[DeniseXfrost]

Jeez, that is a lot of work, but it still makes more sense than the Emma temporarily helping him make some psychological break that only temporarily gave him control over his powers.
We don't really know if her fix is temporary or not (seeing how scott appears to have visorless sex with Em in the AXM preview). And Emma didn't really "fix" anything but rather showed him a hidden memory that he himself didn't even know it exists.

[darknessatnoon]

oh i wasn't referring to that

Yeah, there are a lot of them to list, but I didn't want to pound such a fine point into the ground, you know?

[Brian Cronin]

Here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=62927), I bumped up a thread about who is the strongest telepath.

Go talk about it there, not in an Giant-Size Astonishing X-Men #1 thread.

-Brian

[Flâneur]

Herpes enhances mutant powers.

This made me smile after such a crappy day. <3

[DDM]

Emma frost has the ability to perform "psychic surgery"
Don't know how, don't know why.
But this is a fact.
She's like Nurse Annie but not a complete waste of oxygen.

Professor X probably could have done it, but was busy perving over the birds in the garden.
Sorry, space birds

Emma's psychic surgery fixes memories; it's not a literal surgery on the brain to fix Scott's brain damage.

[Flâneur]

Emma's psychic surgery fixes memories; it's not a literal surgery on the brain to fix Scott's brain damage.

Scott's physical brain damage was fixed a while ago when he fell over and hit his head (it doesn't make sense but ... it's canon) so all that's left are his own inhibitions and lack of control. After that it was in the realm of any telepath to correct and unless I'm mistaken, Emma Frost is a telepath. There's no contradiction or abuse of continuity in this instance, the abuse is more of logic (hit his ... head to correct brain damage?) and narrative (Scott's unfixed now?).

[timbox]

Scott used laser surgery to repair his brain damage with a concave mirror and a well-placed optic blast. Eat that Xavier, Jean, and Emma!

[Come To Deathstrike]

Emma's psychic surgery fixes memories; it's not a literal surgery on the brain to fix Scott's brain damage.

That's nice.
It would be even nicer if I'd have mentioned anything about brain damage in my post.
But now I feel enlightened
I also know she has a power involving a key.
I know nothing else about this power
What Is this Power DDM?

[Omega Alpha]

Scott used laser surgery to repair his brain damage with a concave mirror and a well-placed optic blast. Eat that Xavier, Jean, and Emma!

I like this idea:biggrin:

[ExodusCloak]

Well, i'm no brainsurgeon either :). But wouldn't damaged neural pathways eventually deteriorate? I know undamaged neural pathways can change and make new connections, not entirely clear on how damaged pathways react though. I know other pathways are sometimes formed to take over functions of damaged pathways but not sure what happens to the damaged pathways.

I looked up stem cell research and brain damage and I think I found the reason as to why it wouldn't matter what the network looks like. It's called neuroplasticity, our brain doesn't have a fixed map, it may change due to a stimulus(Which doesn't have to be a bump on the head, it could be an increase in hormones etc) and tasks that were handled by one part of the brain can be shifted and delegated to new parts. Our brain pattern is "fluid" in a sense. Even if our brain isn't damaged this "fluidity" still occurs. Makes sense as it'd be hard to imagine that people would invest in stem cell research/brain damage treatment if the pattern was fixed as I think that would be beyond any level of science we have today.

I honestly try to ignore what happened in Warsong. The idea that the Phoenix Force reacts poorly to negative emotions really doesn't make any sense when Rachel, someone who was able to wield the force with great skill, was an almost constant outlet of negative emotions at her introduction and throughout her run. My comment that Emma wasn't powerful enough to house the Phoenix Force was based upon what Emma said - it's quoted elsewhere on this thread. She herself said she wasn't powerful enough.

Oh it does, think about the Dark Phoenix and why it came to be, the type of emotions that Mastermind toyed with. And think how the POTWC came to be through positive emotion love. And how White Phoenix Celeste came to be again through the love of her sisters and Emma.

Rachel has become consumed with the force though, when she went after Selene and Wolverine stabbed her. She's learnt to control it the same way Jean did by believing in the love of her friends and family.(Positive Emotions)

She said that she wasn't "strong" enough she didn't explain what she was talking about till Warsong. In Warsong Celeste said that she felt that she couldn't couldn't handle the hunger either and said how could Emma expect her to handle it when Emma couldn't. Emma then explained the difference between them. Celeste isn't cold like Emma. Jean, Rachel and Celeste can handle the passion and hunger of the Phoenix for human emotion...they've all at separate times become consumed by the Force just like Emma however they're on the same level as cold and isolated as Emma. Jean has the love of her Friends, Rachel has found love in her friends and Emma's teaching methods didn't work that well on Celeste in comparison to her sisters. I'm willing to bet that Sophie would also be able to be a host. Emma now has the love of Scott don't be suprised if she actually hosts it in the 3rd Phoenix Mini.
Vulcan was also consumed by the force with his negative emotion(Hate and Vengence) in that What if.

[jeannie]

We don't really know if her fix is temporary or not (seeing how scott appears to have visorless sex with Em in the AXM preview). And Emma didn't really "fix" anything but rather showed him a hidden memory that he himself didn't even know it exists.

Why would she do that when she's attacking him? Helping him by recovering a lost memory for him and leading toward a massive breakthrough that would undoubtably allow him to control his powers in the context of reducing him to a pile of goo as part of her bigger plot of taking down the X-men is the problem with that theory - it doesn't make any sense within the context of the story. And Whedon did not bother in the entire run to try to explain it.

[frog]

I received my copy today. I enjoyed it but I did feel rather unfulfilled after it was over.

The issue easily kept my attention and I enjoyed much of the interaction but I really did feel like more of the issue should have focused on the actual cast. Yes, Spidey and Storm are fun but they weren't the stars of Astonishing. Whedon could have been more succinct in handling the inability of the earthbound heroes to thwart the bullet and devoted more to the main players. It seemed as though some, such as Wolverine and Armor, not to mention Danger and Lockheed, barely walked through a scene.

I reread the previous issues right before receiving this one. That makes the dangling plotlines very conspicuous to me. The holes in the story wouldn't be nearly as annoying if Astonishing had not been touted as being self-contained - I would then feel more confident certain nagging issues such as Cassandra Nova, Danger, etc. would be addressed in the future. Unless Ellis takes it upon himself to flesh out these plot points they are likely to remain unresolved and that would be a shame.

I wanted to know more about Lockheed's role in SWORD, and I certainly found his last contact with Kitty very unsatisfactory. Really, his relationship with Kitty was more substantial than her one with Colossus, and for her to have been unaware of his capabilities just doesn't ring true.

The magic protection on the bullet was also something that jarred me out of the story. It just sounded like something the writer threw into the story because he couldn't think of anyway else to make it seem like no one but Kitty could save earth.

As for Cassandra Nova, it's still debateable whether she even existed or was just a simple figment of Emma's deranged imagination along with the Hellfire Club. Was she really responsible for Emma's secondary mutation? Is the green glob still lying on the open floor of the mansion?



I can't say I wasn't entertained but I have to admit that I think I enjoyed the dialogue more than much of the actual story in the end. I feel that this could have been much better, and considering the time spent waiting, there isn't really an excuse as to why we didn't receive more than what we got out of this last arc.

[DeniseXfrost]

Why would she do that when she's attacking him? Helping him by recovering a lost memory for him and leading toward a massive breakthrough that would undoubtably allow him to control his powers in the context of reducing him to a pile of goo as part of her bigger plot of taking down the X-men is the problem with that theory - it doesn't make any sense within the context of the story. And Whedon did not bother in the entire run to try to explain it.
Because Cassie was the one who used Emma to attacked her teammates....Emma was just the victim in it. She was so full of guilt that she let Cassie slowly manipulated her mind into believing she will always be evil hence why she let Kitty bitchslapped her into the ground. Still confused?

[jeannie]

Frankly, yes. Emma being a tool of Cassie, who hates the X-men, makes the idea that Emma would offer Scott an important breakthrough during her attack even less likely. Cassie wouldn't want Scott to get such information. Evil Emma wouldn't give Scott that information either.

And Emma having access to that memory really hasn't been explained either. Particularly when Scott is apparently able to hide the existence of X-Force from Emma. But Scott can't hide a memory that he doesn't even know exists from Emma? Nope, doesn't make sense.

[HellFrost]

Frankly, yes. Emma being a tool of Cassie, who hates the X-men, makes the idea that Emma would offer Scott an important breakthrough during her attack even less likely. If Emma had no control over the situation and was just being controlled of Cassie, then the explanation makes even less sense.
I might be wrong, and still can't check, but I believe Scott said that Emma was making it look like an attack but making them go through their biggest fears to help prepare them to take out her and her 'HellFire Club.' This being after he shoots Perfection in the back. Which was total pwnage!

Particularly when Scott is apparently able to hide the existence of X-Force from Emma. But Scott can't hide a memory that he doesn't even know exists from Emma? Nope, doesn't make sense.
I agree with the idea of her not knowing about X-Force incredibly stupid (along with the notion that she didn't know about his powers being under control...), especially when she stated to Tony Stark that he can't keep secrets from her so she doesn't keep secrets from him. It's utter bull-poopie.

[jeannie]

I might be wrong, and still can't check, but I believe Scott said that Emma was making it look like an attack but making them go through their biggest fears to help prepare them to take out her and her 'HellFire Club.' This being after he shoots Perfection in the back. Which was total pwnage!


Agreed on the pwnage.
I just looked at #18. It was Hank who said that Beast was making them face their worst fears and Scott said that Emma was doing that to get them to do what they were doing (ie. Kitty trying to shoot Emma in the head). That part makes sense to me - there was a part of Emma who hated herself and wanted to die while being manipulated by Cassie (what a great villain). It was Scott who said to Kitty while she's holding a gun to Emma's head "Cassandra brought you here to open the box. What Emma brought you here to do is what you're doing now."

But it's the repressed memory that still doesn't fit within the framework. Because anyone who told Scott about that lost memory would clearly earn his gratitude and even love (as demonstrated a few issues later). Scott wouldn't hate and certainly isn't going to kill Emma because she showed him that. Scott's a known control freak, showing him that he really has the control that he's always wanted just doesn't strike me as an offensive attack.

So really, neither evil, self-loathing Emma nor Cassie had a motivation to reveal the memory.

[DeniseXfrost]

Frankly, yes. Emma being a tool of Cassie, who hates the X-men, makes the idea that Emma would offer Scott an important breakthrough during her attack even less likely. Cassie wouldn't want Scott to get such information. Evil Emma wouldn't give Scott that information either.
Hmmm that wasn't Cassie with full power possesing Emma ok? That was a tiny little piece of Cassie slowly wispering to Emma...manipulating her....so yes that wasn't a full attack. I believed the real plan was to mind rape Scott and put him to coma....but while doing that the real Emma genuinely showed him all the surpressed memory in his bug room. She probably exchanged some information or left some hints to Scott while they were in her 'bug room' hence why Scott waking up and figuring out everything.

And Emma having access to that memory really hasn't been explained either.
Emma forcefully entered his bug room and sorted his memory. Particularly when Scott is apparently able to hide the existence of X-Force from Emma.
This issue hasn't dealt yet and hopefully will be soon.

But it's the repressed memory that still doesn't fit within the framework. Because anyone who told Scott about that lost memory would clearly earn his gratitude and even love (as demonstrated a few issues later). Scott wouldn't hate and certainly isn't going to kill Emma because she showed him that. Scott's a known control freak, showing him that he really has the control that he's always wanted just doesn't strike me as an offensive attack.

So really, neither evil, self-loathing Emma nor Cassie had a motivation to reveal the memory.
Huh? That didn't make sense. Scott wasn't killing or hate anyone...or do you mean the shooting Perfection in the back?

.

[Hi-Fi]

Emma crying for Kitty was LOL

Storm stole the show.

[ExodusCloak]

Why would she do that when she's attacking him? Helping him by recovering a lost memory for him and leading toward a massive breakthrough that would undoubtably allow him to control his powers in the context of reducing him to a pile of goo as part of her bigger plot of taking down the X-men is the problem with that theory - it doesn't make any sense within the context of the story. And Whedon did not bother in the entire run to try to explain it.

Because Emma is unstable/clinically insane or at least schizo. Split personalities and all that. A part of her was helping the X-Men and another part of her was reverting back to her old ways.
Good Emma gave Scott a gift bad Emma was planning on killing herself and the X-Men by releasing Cassandra Nova.

The reason why Jean and Xavier didn't see it is because both of them didn't know about Scotts Black Bug Room. Emma took Scott to his black bug room and showed him the memory there. It was kept in the black bug room because it was for him one of his most horrible secrets.

A figment Cassandra Nova played on Emma's Survivors guilt but it was made clear that Emma wasn't being mind controlled. So a part of her really did want to do die for surviving Fitzroys attack. Genosha etc.
She's a survivor...that's her curse.

[DeniseXfrost]

Because Emma is unstable/clinically insane or at least schizo. Split Personalities and all that. A part of her was helping the X-Men and another part of her was reverting back to her old ways.
Good Emma gave Scott a gift bad Emma was planning on killing herself and the X-Men by releasing Cassandra Nova.

The reason why Jean and Xavier didn't see it is because both of them didn't know about Scotts Black Bug Room. Emma took Scott to his black bug room and showed him the memory there. It was kept in the black bug room because it was for him one of his most horrible secrets.
Well, that was a clearer explanation. Yeb split personality that was the word I was trying to look for.

[Hi-Fi]

Beast and Abby should have babies. Furry green babies.

[timbox]

Beast and Abby should have babies. Furry green babies.

Brand is a skrull! There's a story about her in next week's Secret Invasion: Who do you Trust?

Or maybe Beast is the skrull!!

[frog]

Beast and Abby should have babies. Furry green babies.

Furry green babies that glow.

Brand is a skrull! There's a story about her in next week's Secret Invasion: Who do you Trust?

Or maybe Beast is the skrull!!

70's Beast is a skrull for sure.

If Brand is a Skrull it wasn't very nice of her fellows to wreck her station.

[timbox]

Brand needs to be careful or she might catch Beast's fur on fire in the heat of passion.

..and if she is a skrull, I will not be happy!

[frog]

Brand needs to be careful or she might catch Beast's fur on fire in the heat of passion.

..and if she is a skrull, I will not be happy!

She's no Skrull. The green hair would have been too obvious.

[HellFrost]

She's no Skrull. The green hair would have been too obvious.

I agree with this. Plus, I don't see them giving her an odd power like that if she was one.

[timbox]

The fact that she is sexually attracted to Beast is very skrull-spicious!!!

[HellFrost]

The fact that she is sexually attracted to Beast is very skrull-spicious!!!

Hey! Hanks a pretty sexy beast (pun!)

[Beast]

Was she really responsible for Emma's secondary mutation?
I'm sure the answer is yes. As Marvel has been trying to get rid of the idea of secondary mutations for some time. Having it being something Cassie did to Emma so she'd survive Genosha effectively does that.

[frog]

I'm sure the answer is yes. As Marvel has been trying to get rid of the idea of secondary mutations for some time. Having it being something Cassie did to Emma so she'd survive Genosha effectively does that.

Well, if that was really Cassandra Nova influencing Emma, I'd sure like to know what happened to her.


Welcome back, btw.

[HellFrost]

I'm sure the answer is yes. As Marvel has been trying to get rid of the idea of secondary mutations for some time. Having it being something Cassie did to Emma so she'd survive Genosha effectively does that.

See, I took it as Cassandra giving feeding on her survival guilt. I don't believe she did it at all. How could she possibly have done it, even if she did, ya know?

*waves hello*

[Beast]

See, I took it as Cassandra giving feeding on her survival guilt. I don't believe she did it at all. How could she possibly have done it, even if she did, ya know?

*waves hello*
I'm pretty sure the memory is real. After all, she planned the destruction of Genosha. So she could have easily grabbed Emma, screwed with her, and put her back. So she could get her mole inside the X-Mansion. Since she knew that the X-Men would respond to the destruction of Genosha.

And hello yourself. And hey Frog! :smile:

[ExodusCloak]

I'm pretty sure the memory is real. After all, she planned the destruction of Genosha. So she could have easily grabbed Emma, screwed with her, and put her back. So she could get her mole inside the X-Mansion. Since she knew that the X-Men would respond to the destruction of Genosha.

And hello yourself. And hey Frog! :smile:

One thing that was really odd about that scene is that IRRC it takes place in the jungles of Ecuador. What was Emma doing there when she was supposed to be teaching in Genosha which is off the coast of South Africa and Mozambique.

[darknessatnoon]

One thing that was really odd about that scene is that IRRC it takes place in the jungles of Ecuador. What was Emma doing there when she was supposed to be teaching in Genosha which is off the coast of South Africa and Mozambique.

She taught telepathic long distance classes, which means she could have skipped out on a couple of day of classes in Hammer Bay and no one would have noticed/cared.

[HellFrost]

I just realized how Emma's Diamond Form is indeed a secondary mutation. The Cuckoos.

[jarrod]

I reread the previous issues right before receiving this one. That makes the dangling plotlines very conspicuous to me. The holes in the story wouldn't be nearly as annoying if Astonishing had not been touted as being self-contained - I would then feel more confident certain nagging issues such as Cassandra Nova, Danger, etc. would be addressed in the future. Unless Ellis takes it upon himself to flesh out these plot points they are likely to remain unresolved and that would be a shame.
Ellis and Whedon supposedly met last year to go over the transition... I'd imagine any loose plot threads (Nova, Danger, Lockheed) will likely get taken over by Ellis. Nova (hiding in Hisako) especially seems like something Ellis would feel at home with imo.


I wanted to know more about Lockheed's role in SWORD, and I certainly found his last contact with Kitty very unsatisfactory. Really, his relationship with Kitty was more substantial than her one with Colossus, and for her to have been unaware of his capabilities just doesn't ring true.
Agreed here, really let down by Whedon's lockheed follow through especially... I actually figured he might end up going with her at the end, instead he didn't even appear. :/

I'd have also liked to see more of a reaction from Kurt and Ororo specifically. I know they're not Whedon's core cast, but they were in the issue. Kurt's arguably closer to her than anyone who appeared and Ororo's basically her surrogate mother... seeing Emma tear up while we got nothing from them just felt wrong imo, though I understand Whedon's narrative reasoning.

[Imraith Nimphais]

Either she's dead or she ain't dead! ARGH! I hate the murkiness.

Just a way for her to eventually come back - so why even bother with offing her in the first place?

Not happy with that. Wish she was more solidly dead.

THANK YOU...
Is it really THAT difficult to "properly and decently" kill a character (and allow that character to stay well and truly dead) and lets say in a few years introduce another character with similar powers if the fans are clamoring for such? Yes, it won't be the same Kitty, nor Poitr...but that gives the creative team free reign to develope a truly interesting "new" character unhampered by any "character mythos".

When kitty does return I foresee her hooking up with Poitr (at Harry's, over an ice-cream sundae) and comparing notes on what it was like to be dead...Or, better yet, Marvel could do a new title with ONLY characters who have "died" and came back to life...they can call it "Marvel's Alive Un-dead" or some such appropriate foolishness...lead by Jean Grey (of course).

[DungeonmasterJim]

I'm fairly late to this party having just read the comic tonight. I was okay with bits of it but some things just didn't resonate with me. I'm never a big fan of 'prophecy' stories because the prophecies always end up wrong. Probably my biggest problem with this is issue is Kitty becoming bonded with the bullet rocket - LOL! - and then phasing the whole thing through the earth. How many people did she just kill since she disrupts electronic devices. Or did she manage to make the missle miss every hospital in the city? I also can't help wondering how much or how many things or people she smashed out of the way that have admantium about or in them? Or can she now phase through admantium.

For the series overall I wasn't big on the return of Colossus. I am looking forward to Ellis's take on Petey. I liked his version of him back in the 1st Excalibur series. And I'm never a fan of writers that come in and dispose of characters that have been around 25+ and leave a barely developed character in it's palce. I much prefer the way someone that makes their living off of comics like Gail Simone. She introduced and wrote Misfit for a number of isses and clearly defined her as a new character and part of a team without killing off an established character. For me, Armor is an okay character but feels like nothing more than Kitty's replacement and maybe even a touch of a way for Whedon to keep himself invloved with X-men lore past this arc of his. Armor's already doing the young girl hanging out with Wolverine already just like Jubilee and Kitty did. I can't help but wonder how long a character would last in the Buffy universe if another writer jettisoned Willow to replace her with another witch character.

Can Wolverine actually get drunk off of beer?

Some of Cassady's art looked really great with his close-up's but some of the other heroes looked really off. His Thing is attrocious. And they didn't really add anything to the story like others have said.

I didn't hate Astonishing but I certainly was underwhelmed by it considering all the hype.

DM Jim

[DeniseXfrost]

I absolutely love every title of the arc. Gifted, Dangerous, Torn and Unstoppable and Unstoppable in this arc is really referring to the giant bullet.

[pariah-1972]

I'm fairly late to this party having just read the comic tonight. I was okay with bits of it but some things just didn't resonate with me. I'm never a big fan of 'prophecy' stories because the prophecies always end up wrong. Probably my biggest problem with this is issue is Kitty becoming bonded with the bullet rocket - LOL! - and then phasing the whole thing through the earth. How many people did she just kill since she disrupts electronic devices. Or did she manage to make the missle miss every hospital in the city? I also can't help wondering how much or how many things or people she smashed out of the way that have admantium about or in them? Or can she now phase through admantium.

For the series overall I wasn't big on the return of Colossus. I am looking forward to Ellis's take on Petey. I liked his version of him back in the 1st Excalibur series. And I'm never a fan of writers that come in and dispose of characters that have been around 25+ and leave a barely developed character in it's palce. I much prefer the way someone that makes their living off of comics like Gail Simone. She introduced and wrote Misfit for a number of isses and clearly defined her as a new character and part of a team without killing off an established character. For me, Armor is an okay character but feels like nothing more than Kitty's replacement and maybe even a touch of a way for Whedon to keep himself invloved with X-men lore past this arc of his. Armor's already doing the young girl hanging out with Wolverine already just like Jubilee and Kitty did. I can't help but wonder how long a character would last in the Buffy universe if another writer jettisoned Willow to replace her with another witch character.

Can Wolverine actually get drunk off of beer?

Some of Cassady's art looked really great with his close-up's but some of the other heroes looked really off. His Thing is attrocious. And they didn't really add anything to the story like others have said.

I didn't hate Astonishing but I certainly was underwhelmed by it considering all the hype.

DM JimI think Wolvie would have to drink a boatload of beer for him to get drunk since his body recognizes it as a "poison" for some reason.

[Sean Whitmore]

I think Wolvie would have to drink a boatload of beer for him to get drunk since his body recognizes it as a "poison" for some reason.

"For some reason"?


SEAN

[pariah-1972]

"For some reason"?


SEANWhy would beer be considered a poison?

[Sean Whitmore]

Why would beer be considered a poison?

Because of all the damage it does to the human body (in the amounts Wolverine consumes it, anyway).


SEAN

[Flâneur]

Why would beer be considered a poison?
Well his liver is healing and working at peak rate (which alcohol damages) plus he has incredible metabolism. I doubt he could get drunk if he imbibed his weight's worth of beer.

[Pro]

Why would beer be considered a poison?

Impaired judgement
Liver failure
Acute respiratory failure
Disrupts digestion
Heart rhytm problems
Heightened bloodpressure
Impotence
Decreased motoric control
Vitamine B1 deficiency
Muscle cramps
Memory loss
Dehydration
Addiction
Blindness
Death

[pariah-1972]

Impaired judgement
Liver failure
Acute respiratory failure
Disrupts digestion
Heart rhytm problems
Heightened bloodpressure
Impotence
Decreased motoric control
Vitamine B1 deficiency
Muscle cramps
Memory loss
Dehydration
Addiction
Blindness
DeathBut thats only if taken to an extreme...

[Pro]

But thats only if taken to an extreme...

Goes for most toxins. It's just the amount that is considered too much that differs per substance. Still makes it a poison, a toxic substance that adversely affects the body. While you may not feel the effect of B1 being broken down, or alcohol's effect on digestion, or a slightly elevated bloodpressure doesn't mean it doesn't happen even when taking alcohol in small doses.
Wolverine's power is to detect said anomalies and break them down the instant they occur so it won't affect him so to get drunk he has to race against his own speedy metabolism by drinking extreme amounts to even feel anything.

[mikekerr3]

But thats only if taken to an extreme...

If you can feel the buzz m you already have some brain damage. Alcohol is a toxix and a drug, lower doses don't change that, In very low doses the medicinal effect can out weigh the damage but those doses are too small for anyone to get a buzz of of at all.

[The Fury]

4 years and 24 issues. 6 issues a year. To be honest, I feel sorry for fans of this series. Not only because they are reading something different to me but because they had to wait 4 years of Whedon's slow writing and busy schedule to get it. I once blamed Cassaday on his art as he had to ink it himself but that soon passed once Runaways was being delayed on a regular basis.

I'll keep this post to this book on it's own ignoring the factors of the last 23 issues (if you can remember any of it).

The art was better. I guess that is what having 5 months can bring huh?

Story was...dire. End result was worse.

Saving grace, Whedon is now off X-men.

If someone starts a thread on the entire run, I'd be glad to post in that to on my thoughts to the entire series, but then i guess many fo you who know me know what that post would be like already.

[DDM]

Can Wolverine actually get drunk off of beer?

Yes, Wolverine can get drunk off an alcoholic substance, but it must be extreme amounts & strong to deal with his healing factor. Wolverine came home a slobbering drunk in Uncanny X-Men Annual #11 as part of the "anniversary" of his & Mariko's wedding that never was:

http://image.milehighcomics.com/istore/images/fullsize/97904389460.11.GIF

When ambushed by the omnipotent Horde, Wolverine nearly guts Dazzler when she walks in the hallway in the wrong time & place. Wolverine's senses are off as a result of the alcohol too. A sober Wolverine would not have made such stupid mistakes.

[pariah-1972]

4 years and 24 issues. 6 issues a year. To be honest, I feel sorry for fans of this series. Not only because they are reading something different to me but because they had to wait 4 years of Whedon's slow writing and busy schedule to get it. I once blamed Cassaday on his art as he had to ink it himself but that soon passed once Runaways was being delayed on a regular basis.

I'll keep this post to this book on it's own ignoring the factors of the last 23 issues (if you can remember any of it).

The art was better. I guess that is what having 5 months can bring huh?

Story was...dire. End result was worse.

Saving grace, Whedon is now off X-men.

If someone starts a thread on the entire run, I'd be glad to post in that to on my thoughts to the entire series, but then i guess many fo you who know me know what that post would be like already.Well as for me i stopped caring about the overall story last year, but i was enjoying the small character moments a lot which is why i kept reading it.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

But it's the repressed memory that still doesn't fit within the framework. Because anyone who told Scott about that lost memory would clearly earn his gratitude and even love (as demonstrated a few issues later). Scott wouldn't hate and certainly isn't going to kill Emma because she showed him that. Scott's a known control freak, showing him that he really has the control that he's always wanted just doesn't strike me as an offensive attack.

So really, neither evil, self-loathing Emma nor Cassie had a motivation to reveal the memory.

Ems is in love. She thought and expected *everyone* to die. It was a parting gift.

Somewhat of a "I'm about to commit suicide, I left you for dead inside your own mind, the old scow and my HC pals will murder you all, but I love you" motif. Or something. :biggrin:

[yadadaimhollaing]

So I'm reading through this thread and I saw warren ellis will continue with the title, does anybody know when axm25 will come out? Also I saw the rumored team is without collosus, which xmen team will he be on or what book will he be in?

[Beast]

So I'm reading through this thread and I saw warren ellis will continue with the title, does anybody know when axm25 will come out? Also I saw the rumored team is without collosus, which xmen team will he be on or what book will he be in?
Astonishing X-Men #25 is coming out July 2nd.

Colossus will be in Uncanny X-Men. Which will have more or less a rotating cast, featuring all of the X-Men. The cast for AXM is Cyclops, Beast, Storm, Emma Frost, Wolverine, and Armor.

[princesa]

I'm a Whedon fan. Loved Buffy and Angel. Love the comics run. Loved Serenity and Firefly. Loved his Astonishing run. But this thing with Kitty is too much. I thought his run was supposed to be its own continuity.

[Beast]

I'm a Whedon fan. Loved Buffy and Angel. Love the comics run. Loved Serenity and Firefly. Loved his Astonishing run. But this thing with Kitty is too much. I thought his run was supposed to be its own continuity.
No. His run was supposed to be self-contained.

Since it was clear the book was never going to be on time, it was easier for it to ignore everything else going on and tell self-contained stories. It's still a part of the canon and effects the other books.

[frog]

Bad news for you, Beast. Joe Q. said in his latest Cup'o'Joe that Danger would show up again.

It's alright with me, though, because not knowing how Emma got around her promise aggravated me.

[Beast]

Bad news for you, Beast. Joe Q. said in his latest Cup'o'Joe that Danger would show up again.

It's alright with me, though, because not knowing how Emma got around her promise agravated me.
She won't be written by Joss Whedon, so I'm not cringing as badly as I would have.

Give her to Mike Carey. Since he's got Xavier right now. :smile:

[frog]

She won't be written by Joss Whedon, so I have hope that someone will do her justice.

Give her to Mike Carey. Since he's got Xavier right now. :smile:

That could be really interesting . . .

Though her origin doesn't really make sense I love her look - she just plain looks cool.

[Sean Whitmore]

Give her to Mike Carey. Since he's got Xavier right now. :smile:

I assume that's what they'd have to do. As encyclopedic as Carey is being about Xavier continuity (I mean, Jesus, stuff from the Alan Davis run?), there's no chance in the world he's going to avoid tackling this one.


SEAN

[DeniseXfrost]

Bad news for you, Beast. Joe Q. said in his latest Cup'o'Joe that Danger would show up again.

It's alright with me, though, because not knowing how Emma got around her promise aggravated me.
YAY I love Danger! She could become Emma's personal assistant.

[frog]

YAY I love Danger! She could become Emma's personal assistant.

I suspect that Emma is just behind Xavier on Danger's list of least favorite mutants!

[DeniseXfrost]

I know LOL It seems like Emma's the only one who can boss her around.

[yadadaimhollaing]

Astonishing X-Men #25 is coming out July 2nd.

Colossus will be in Uncanny X-Men. Which will have more or less a rotating cast, featuring all of the X-Men. The cast for AXM is Cyclops, Beast, Storm, Emma Frost, Wolverine, and Armor.

Ok thanks for the info. With uncanny xmen having collosus I might have to start reading it. Its such a shame that to continue reading axm I have to put up with storm who I really don't like. Maybe ill get lucky and ellis will make her bearable like whedon did with kitty pryde. I was never a huge x fan but one thing I enjoyed about axm was the relationship with kitty pryde and its just so fitting that after the great reunion with her and piotr that now she's the person gone away.

One thing I liked a lot about this issue was the way kitty was sent off to space. I've been reading well kittys dead, I think that plot can be used in the future and made that the bullet is mistakenly shot at by the xmen or earth to some foreign planet and they attack earth after holding kitty prisoner after freeing her from the bullet.

Now I will agree with being confused about some left over plot holes like the whole mind control thing and why emma frost would be conspiring against the xmen.

didn't danger and the sentinel sacrifice themselves to knock the bullet off trajectory of the earth or slow it down?
I don't see how the magic of dr strange could affect a computer or machine.

[yadadaimhollaing]

Astonishing X-Men #25 is coming out July 2nd.

Colossus will be in Uncanny X-Men. Which will have more or less a rotating cast, featuring all of the X-Men. The cast for AXM is Cyclops, Beast, Storm, Emma Frost, Wolverine, and Armor.

Ok thanks for the info. With uncanny xmen having collosus I might have to start reading it. Its such a shame that to continue reading axm I have to put up with storm who I really don't like. Maybe ill get lucky and ellis will make her bearable like whedon did with kitty pryde. I was never a huge x fan but one thing I enjoyed about axm was the relationship with kitty pryde and its just so fitting that after the great reunion with her and piotr that now she's the person gone away.

One thing I liked a lot about this issue was the way kitty was sent off to space. I've been reading well kittys dead, I think that plot can be used in the future and made that the bullet is mistakenly shot at by the xmen or earth to some foreign planet and they attack earth after holding kitty prisoner after freeing her from the bullet.

Now I will agree with being confused about some left over plot holes like the whole mind control thing and why emma frost would be conspiring against the xmen.

didn't danger and the sentinel sacrifice themselves to knock the bullet off trajectory of the earth or slow it down?
I don't see how the magic of dr strange could affect a computer or machine.

[Anna]

Bad news for you, Beast. Joe Q. said in his latest Cup'o'Joe that Danger would show up again.

It's alright with me, though, because not knowing how Emma got around her promise aggravated me.

Yay!!!!!! I love me some danger!

[Hi-Fi]

LOL. I love Danger as well. I think she's hilarious.

[Old No.7]

LOL. I love Danger as well. I think she's hilarious.

You enjoyed the 2 lines she had in this issue too?

[darknessatnoon]

You enjoyed the 2 lines she had in this issue too?

It's Danger's immaculate boobs people love.

[yadadaimhollaing]

It's Danger's immaculate boobs people love.

I love boobs :biggrin:

[DeadXMan]

I love boobs :biggrin:

Who dosen't?

[HellFrost]

You enjoyed the 2 lines she had in this issue too?

She had lines? Where was I?:confused:

[Hi-Fi]

I assume that's what they'd have to do. As encyclopedic as Carey is being about Xavier continuity (I mean, Jesus, stuff from the Alan Davis run?), there's no chance in the world he's going to avoid tackling this one.


SEAN
You think so?

I could bet money she'll next appear in Uncanny, in the new San Fran HQ, pouring some tea to Mademoiselle Hepzibah.

[The Fury]

She won't be written by Joss Whedon, so I'm not cringing as badly as I would have.

Give her to Mike Carey. Since he's got Xavier right now. :smile:
Only Mike Carey can turn it into a decent character. After what The Danger Room has turned into, all should be done to change it to make sense and give it credibility.

[Come To Deathstrike]

Only Mike Carey can turn it into a decent character. After what The Danger Room has turned into, all should be done to change it to make sense and give it credibility.


Noooo!
Ellis would make her Crazy and fun.

Carey would have it recite instances of all Danger room training sessions, how these have affected it on physical and emotional levels.
He'd go on to talk about how the technology of Danger was rooted in Shi'ar legends and magic, and write a 12 part arc where we talk about the Shi'ar, and how they evolved for a year.

Danger should teach armor how to make fun shapes that aren't Wolverine.
And yes.

[darknessatnoon]

Noooo!
Ellis would make her Crazy and fun.

Carey would have it recite instances of all Danger room training sessions, how these have affected it on physical and emotional levels.
He'd go on to talk about how the technology of Danger was rooted in Shi'ar legends and magic, and write a 12 part arc where we talk about the Shi'ar, and how they evolved for a year.

Danger should teach armor how to make fun shapes that aren't Wolverine.
And yes.

LOL!!!

This is incredibly accurate. You have a good sense of the writers.

[DeniseXfrost]

Really guys I think Danger is made to be Emma's cute robot assistant.

Emma: "Bring me my nail polish Bitch!"
Danger: "Yes Ms Frost.....when do I get to see Proffessor?"
Emma: "You're questioning me?!?!"
Danger: "No, mam....why do I have to be stuck with these idiots?"
Emma: "What did you say ?!?!"
Danger: "Error..10101"

[Old No.7]

Really guys I think Danger is made to be Emma's cute robot assistant.

Emma: "Bring me my nail polish Bitch!"
Danger: "Yes Ms Frost.....when do I get to see Proffessor?"
Emma: "You're questioning me?!?!"
Danger: "No, mam....why do I have to be stuck with these idiots?"
Emma: "What did you say ?!?!"
Danger: "Error..10101"

Danger/Sage romance.

[Quinnhop]

Really guys I think Danger is made to be Emma's cute robot assistant.

Emma: "Bring me my nail polish Bitch!"
Danger: "Yes Ms Frost.....when do I get to see Proffessor?"
Emma: "You're questioning me?!?!"
Danger: "No, mam....why do I have to be stuck with these idiots?"
Emma: "What did you say ?!?!"
Danger: "Error..10101"

Only if Millar was writing it.

[Kage Kisaragi]

I just wanted to point out that I "TOTALLY CALLED IT! I AM FREAKIN GENIUS!" Kitty Pryde, Bullet Phaser!!! Hurrah!:tongue:

[fitditz]

I just wanted to point out that I "TOTALLY CALLED IT! I AM FREAKIN GENIUS!" Kitty Pryde, Bullet Phaser!!! Hurrah!:tongue:
Sorry, but that wasn't such a hard thing to figure out :) Give yourself a pat on the back though!

[Hi-Fi]

Danger/Sage romance.
Danger deserves better.

[Pro]

I just wanted to point out that I "TOTALLY CALLED IT! I AM FREAKIN GENIUS!" Kitty Pryde, Bullet Phaser!!! Hurrah!:tongue:

It really didn't take genius levels of intelligence to figure out: Kitty Pryde dead+Bullet fired at earth = kitty dies phasing bullet. :p

[Come To Deathstrike]

Danger deserves better.

You know you'd enjoy the interfacing.
Her USB ports alone would drive Tessa mad.
So much Hard Disk space!

[pryde15]

I just wanted to point out that I "TOTALLY CALLED IT! I AM FREAKIN GENIUS!" Kitty Pryde, Bullet Phaser!!! Hurrah!:tongue:

and so did everyother X fan on the planet.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

It really didn't take genius levels of intelligence to figure out: Kitty Pryde dead+Bullet fired at earth = kitty dies phasing bullet. :p

Wait, weren't you arguing with me that she didn't die like two weeks ago...?

[Pro]

Wait, weren't you arguing with me that she didn't die like two weeks ago...?

I don't think i drew conclusions either way. Just that is was pointless to kill her off because the rumor was spreading at least a year ahead of the story.

Oh wait you mean the "phased inside a bullet isn't dead" thing? Still stand by that.
To add to that, someone flying at lightspeed (and likely faster as i pointed out before) effectively stands still in time with regards to the rest of the universe.
So really they have all the time in the world to get her out of that bullet :p

[pariah-1972]

Kitty No Dead !

[Kage Kisaragi]

It really didn't take genius levels of intelligence to figure out: Kitty Pryde dead+Bullet fired at earth = kitty dies phasing bullet. :p

yeah but no one believed that it would happen, I mean someone even said she couldn't do it. :redface: oh well, I'm not gloating, I just feel validated thats all.

[Kage Kisaragi]

and so did everyother X fan on the planet.

if i could find the thread again, I'd show you someone disagreed that it would be kitty that would save the earth.

[Brett P]

I just got my delivery with this issue. I thought it was pretty good but not amazing. The art work in particular was definately lacking in some places.

Whilst I'm not happy that I've lost my favourite X-woman, I look back on it and think that we've had a pretty awesome era for Kitty, and she saved the whole freakin' world! I have to wonder what any writer could do with her in the current setting that could compete with what Joss has achieved with the character over the last 4 years. (4 years to produce 2 years of story though!! Ugh.). I hope she is ought back somehow one day but until then...I guess it's time for Armor to shine!

Anyway, the main thing I didn't like about the issue is that the latter part of the comic felt somewhat rushed and the emotional response to Kitty's "passing" was somewhat lacking for my tastes. The bullet going through the earth and the reactions/explanation from the rest of the cast felt like it could have used an extra few pages atleast.

I also did not like the fact that Emma was the only one who shed tears. EMMA! I didn't feel like it worked, felt really off to me.

I do hope Cassandra Nova isn't lurking inside Hisako...

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Oh wait you mean the "phased inside a bullet isn't dead" thing? Still stand by that.


Fair enough. I'll stand with 616-Earth's greatest minds and the folks on Breakworld who engineered the thing. :biggrin:

To add to that, someone flying at lightspeed (and likely faster as i pointed out before) effectively stands still in time with regards to the rest of the universe.

But the bullet *isn't* travelling at light speed. Refer to the whole 'everyone able to easily see the bullet and drool at it' thingy. :confused:

Either that or a few folks at Marvel took liberties in regard to such a notion. Or yet again there was off-panel hyperspace travel...?

[HellFrost]

yeah but no one believed that it would happen, I mean someone even said she couldn't do it. :redface: oh well, I'm not gloating, I just feel validated thats all.
I agree. I feel the same way.
if i could find the thread again, I'd show you someone disagreed that it would be kitty that would save the earth.
I think I remember who you're talking about. Not specifically who, but what they were saying.
Whilst I'm not happy that I've lost my favourite X-woman, I look back on it and think that we've had a pretty awesome era for Kitty, and she saved the whole freakin' world! I have to wonder what any writer could do with her in the current setting that could compete with what Joss has achieved with the character over the last 4 years. (4 years to produce 2 years of story though!! Ugh.). I hope she is ought back somehow one day but until then...I guess it's time for Armor to shine!I agree with this. I think that this was an amazing series for Kitty, and this will be very hard to beat. I would also like for her to come back one day. And I wan't to see what Armor can really do! She's got a very interesting and creative ability. What is she going to do with it though, I wonder?

Anyway, the main thing I didn't like about the issue is that the latter part of the comic felt somewhat rushed and the emotional response to Kitty's "passing" was somewhat lacking for my tastes. The bullet going through the earth and the reactions/explanation from the rest of the cast felt like it could have used an extra few pages atleast.Keep in mind that the bullet was actually traveling at an incredible speed, so if it was drawn out into more panels... it would have felt like it was dragging. It was only going to appear in two different areas of the world, mind you. The point of "impact" and wherever is exited from. To me, it made a lot of sense, making it as few panels as possible.

I also did not like the fact that Emma was the only one who shed tears. EMMA! I didn't feel like it worked, felt really off to me.
I think that showing Emma to be the only one crying doesn't mean that she's the only one who did. I think that it was more for the purpose of showing that Emma was truly affected by this and really has reformed. It was a point that, to be honest, fans of Kitty, Emma, and of the X-Books alike, needed to see to finally get it through everyones heads that she's NOT evil.


I do hope Cassandra Nova isn't lurking inside Hisako...
I second this.

[pryde15]

I just got my delivery with this issue. I thought it was pretty good but not amazing. The art work in particular was definately lacking in some places.

Whilst I'm not happy that I've lost my favourite X-woman, I look back on it and think that we've had a pretty awesome era for Kitty, and she saved the whole freakin' world! I have to wonder what any writer could do with her in the current setting that could compete with what Joss has achieved with the character over the last 4 years. (4 years to produce 2 years of story though!! Ugh.). I hope she is ought back somehow one day but until then...I guess it's time for Armor to shine!




Whedon really didn't do much with Kitty. He rested on aspects of the character that had already been presented and developed quite alot by another writer. He brought back the 13 1/2 year old character he fell in love with. To even further this statement he brought back her childhood relationship. Whom had cheated on her on more than one occasion. Bringing back Colossus romantic relationship with Kitty was pointless it didn't further her character by any means. Really she was the 13 1/2 year old that we fell in love with, minus the flatchest. I was waiting for that moment where I was like wow go Kitty. But I never got it, and if I did it would've probably been recycled. Other than getting rid of the character, nothing he did for her will be remembered ten years from now. And I do believe their are other writers out there that could've done a better job with the character.

[Brett P]

Whedon really didn't do much with Kitty. He rested on aspects of the character that had already been presented and developed quite alot by another writer. He brought back the 13 1/2 year old character he fell in love with. To even further this statement he brought back her childhood relationship. Whom had cheated on her on more than one occasion. Bringing back Colossus romantic relationship with Kitty was pointless it didn't further her character by any means. Really she was the 13 1/2 year old that we fell in love with, minus the flatchest. I was waiting for that moment where I was like wow go Kitty. But I never got it, and if I did it would've probably been recycled. Other than getting rid of the character, nothing he did for her will be remembered ten years from now. And I do believe their are other writers out there that could've done a better job with the character.

Well I loved everything he did with her, including getting her back with Colossus which is a relationship I love.

Astonishing has easily been my overall favourite "core" X-title of the last few years and alot of it is down the the amazing characterisation of the cast, including Kitty.

BTW, who was responsible for the whole "drooling fantasising about stopping the bullet" psychic attack? I'm sure it's mentioned somehwre in this mammoth thread but I havn't got time to go through it all! I LOL wondering what on earth the likes of Pixie, Dust and Anole were imagining...

[rZi]

Whedon really didn't do much with Kitty. He rested on aspects of the character that had already been presented and developed quite alot by another writer. He brought back the 13 1/2 year old character he fell in love with. To even further this statement he brought back her childhood relationship. Whom had cheated on her on more than one occasion.

Petey cheated on kayta!? wah!?

Bringing back Colossus romantic relationship with Kitty was pointless it didn't further her character by any means. Really she was the 13 1/2 year old that we fell in love with, minus the flatchest. I was waiting for that moment where I was like wow go Kitty. But I never got it, and if I did it would've probably been recycled. Other than getting rid of the character, nothing he did for her will be remembered ten years from now. And I do believe their are other writers out there that could've done a better job with the character.

Whedon said to Quesada he missed both of thoese characters and it's why he brought them back, the whole uneasy teenagerish awkwardness of it all, but i like the fact that their relationship moved on. But your right, it's kind of homeage to the older issues he liked.

[jarrod]

Eh, I thought Whedon made Kitty look like a petulant child with her constant brat attacks on Emma. Christ, even Rachel got over it faster, and Emms was banging her dad. :/


Really, really dissapointing, especially after hearing Whedon was a fan of the Ellis Excalibur run (which delivered the definitive adult Kitty Pryde imo). I did liked how Whedon handled Scott and Hank though, Scott especially tended to shine. Emma was okay-ish (much better towards the end), Logan and Pitor were generally wasted.

[pryde15]

Petey cheated on kayta!? wah!?



Whedon said to Quesada he missed both of thoese characters and it's why he brought them back, the whole uneasy teenagerish awkwardness of it all, but i like the fact that their relationship moved on. But your right, it's kind of homeage to the older issues he liked.

He cheated on her during Secret Wars, with the Alien Lady. And The women from the Savage Land, but that might've been after she left. I don't quite remember.

I am still bitter, and I reserve the right to be bitter. I liked the way the relationship ended and I thought it should've been left in the past as an iconic moment. I feel like Whedon just used that line as an excuse. I sometimes like it when writers bring back classic story elements back into the fray, but he mettled with that alittle too much.

[pryde15]

Eh, I thought Whedon made Kitty look like a petulant child with her constant brat attacks on Emma. Christ, even Rachel got over it faster, and Emms was banging her dad. :/


Really, really dissapointing, especially after hearing Whedon was a fan of the Ellis Excalibur run (which delivered the definitive adult Kitty Pryde imo). I did liked how Whedon handled Scott and Hank though, Scott especially tended to shine. Emma was okay-ish (much better towards the end), Logan and Pitor were generally wasted.

THANK YOU. I say that all the time! One of the other reasons it felt like she was alittle girl once again.

[jarrod]

THANK YOU. I say that all the time! One of the other reasons it felt like she was alittle girl once again.
Yeah, it all felt like a real reversion to me... I guess it wouldn't be an honest Claremont tribute without that though. :P

[pryde15]

Yeah, it all felt like a real reversion to me... I guess it wouldn't be an honest Claremont tribute without that though. :P

Of course not. But If I wanted to read teenager Kitty. I would just read Nexiles.

[rZi]

Eh, I thought Whedon made Kitty look like a petulant child with her constant brat attacks on Emma. Christ, even Rachel got over it faster, and Emms was banging her dad. :/


Really, really dissapointing, especially after hearing Whedon was a fan of the Ellis Excalibur run (which delivered the definitive adult Kitty Pryde imo). I did liked how Whedon handled Scott and Hank though, Scott especially tended to shine. Emma was okay-ish (much better towards the end), Logan and Pitor were generally wasted.

Can you blame her? The first time she met this women she tried to kidnap and enslave the x-men.

And kitty is a child, who see's things very much in black and white. Hence emma is a baddie...what is she doing on the goodies(x-men) team?

Thats the point i think Whedon was trying to make, plus the cat fight lines were always entertaining!

[Brett P]

I am still bitter, and I reserve the right to be bitter. I liked the way the relationship ended and I thought it should've been left in the past as an iconic moment. I feel like Whedon just used that line as an excuse. I sometimes like it when writers bring back classic story elements back into the fray, but he mettled with that alittle too much.

Yeah, it all felt like a real reversion to me... I guess it wouldn't be an honest Claremont tribute without that though. :P

Keep in mind that not everyone has been reading comics for decades. Alot of people will be completely oblivous to the intricicies (omg I can't spell it) of their past relationship.

Besides, after discovering alive the man whose ashes you scattered, who was your first love, emotions are bound to be all over the place. Likewise for Peter, Kitty being the first person he'd seen since being captive and being the one who rescued him...aw I JUST LOVE IT :biggrin:

Also I found her constant digs at Emma hilarious! I loved their bickering.

Making sarcastic and b!tchy remarks to people is pretty commonplace amongst people in general and certainly isn't predominately something kids do in my experience!

[jarrod]

Can you blame her? The first time she met this women she tried to kidnap and enslave the x-men.
Bygones. :biggrin:

Why wasn't Kitty pitching a fit when Xaiver shuffled Jubes off to Emma?


And kitty is a child, who see's things very much in black and white. Hence emma is a baddie...what is she doing on the goodies(x-men) team?
Kitty's in her twenties. Emma's been working with Xaiver for years now too, this stuff's all old news.


Keep in mind that not everyone has been reading comics for decades. Alot of people will be completely oblivous to the intricicies (omg I can't spell it) of their past relationship.

Besides, after discovering alive the man whose ashes you scattered, who was your first love, emotions are bound to be all over the place. Likewise for Peter, Kitty being the first person he'd seen since being captive and being the one who rescued him...aw I JUST LOVE IT :biggrin:
I think I'd have liked the Kitty/Pitor rekindling if maybe there'd been a bit more uncertainty on both their parts... feeling conflicted but still attracted would be understandable and realistic, but Whedon had them just idealistically fall back into it for the most part, true love, blah, blah...

And that sucked. Both had basically come to terms with their feelings (well Kitty had at least, I think Petey always kept the torch burning) and I'd have liked to see some conflicted emotions more. Kitty's pretty logical and headstrong too... I dunno, I really just think she especially fell into the relationship far too easily.

[phantom1592]

Can you blame her? The first time she met this women she tried to kidnap and enslave the x-men.

And kitty is a child, who see's things very much in black and white. Hence emma is a baddie...what is she doing on the goodies(x-men) team?

Thats the point i think Whedon was trying to make, plus the cat fight lines were always entertaining!

I agree with everything. I NEVER understood how Emma got involved with the good guys. One day she's a hellfire club member training an evil bunch of mutants. The next Xavier trusted her with the next Generation of X-mutants in GenX. What happened there? I've never been able to backtrack what happended there.

regardless As far as Kitty is concerned Emma was her first Villian. Like Cyclops and Magneto. Even when Magneto was "good" Cyke NEVER trusted him. Why would kitty ever trust Emma? Because she worked her way into Scotts Bed?

[Pro]

Or yet again there was off-panel hyperspace travel...?

That's a pretty big maybe for me, but pretty much the only thing that adequately explains a bullet flying across lightyears of distance within hours.

It would have had to be a portal though, given that the bulet was solid metal, no hyperdrive engine or it wouldhave shortcircuited.

But a portal would have been relatively easy to disable, leaving the bullet lightyears away from its target.

Huge oversight in my opinion.

[Saturius]

I agree with everything. I NEVER understood how Emma got involved with the good guys. One day she's a hellfire club member training an evil bunch of mutants. The next Xavier trusted her with the next Generation of X-mutants in GenX. What happened there? I've never been able to backtrack what happended there.

regardless As far as Kitty is concerned Emma was her first Villian. Like Cyclops and Magneto. Even when Magneto was "good" Cyke NEVER trusted him. Why would kitty ever trust Emma? Because she worked her way into Scotts Bed?

Emma's sudden choice to enlist with Xavier was very subtle and a little strange, but if you read her previous history it's kinda easy to see why she did. During her White Queen days she was constantly abusing her students, even mindblasting them reguarly when she felt they weren't performing well. However, when the New Mutants were traumatized by the Beyonder, she did help repair their psyches by manipulating their memories. At the end of the storyline Magneto questioned her motives, and she replied that she either did it out of the good of her heart, or she just didn't have any use for damaged goods. It was left somewhat ambiguous of what her true intent was. It was a power play to get the New Mutants to trust her, but you couldn't necessarily right off the fact that she might have done it to really help them as well.

You could also say she pushed the Hellions so hard cause she wanted them to be able to face a world that didn't accept mutants. So you could perceive her intentions two different ways: She was just a a power hungry woman trying to acquire dominance via the Hellions and New Mutants, or that deep down she really had their best interest at heart. It was all very murky back then, but given how devastated she was when the Hellions dies, I guess you have to say she really did care about the welfare of young mutants and that was a very important issue for her. So if she felt that she could help young mutants by joining Xavier, I could see her taking that step onto the side of the angels. I mean, yes it was a bit of a stretch, but Xavier was always about giving people second chances. I think her switching over to the heroes worked simply because they didn't completely whitewash her. She still had an edge and she still played dirty quite often, so she still kept her villanous streak while also displaying heroic qualities.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Huge oversight in my opinion.

That it is.

To be fair, I wasn't defending the off-panel hyperspace so much as pointing out how impossible it is to coherently explain how the bullet went from Breakworld to Earth with what we actually saw.

Best guess would be, as you suggested, travel at light speed. Sad thing is, that theory doesn't come close to working either.

Still, you can't blame Whedon for sacrificing a sensical storyline for the sake of a 10 pages-long Spidey cameo.

Okay, you totally can. Nevermind.

[Omega Alpha]

Can you blame her? The first time she met this women she tried to kidnap and enslave the x-men.

And kitty is a child, who see's things very much in black and white. Hence emma is a baddie...what is she doing on the goodies(x-men) team?

Thats the point i think Whedon was trying to make, plus the cat fight lines were always entertaining!

That, and the other members of the team are the one X-man that is considerably smarter than her (Beast), her childhood love (Pete), a somewhat father figure (Logan), and the role-model X-man (Scott). And considering that Whedon wanted Storm on the team, is hardly a coincidence. All the members of the team are people which would look imposing to Kitty, on different ways (because of her hate/love/admiration for them), and make her less confident. It's very different from being on Excalibur, in which she was a veteran and one that other members looked up to. Compared to the others, she was really the rookie, or the one with less experience.

[The Fury]

That's a pretty big maybe for me, but pretty much the only thing that adequately explains a bullet flying across lightyears of distance within hours.

It would have had to be a portal though, given that the bulet was solid metal, no hyperdrive engine or it wouldhave shortcircuited.

But a portal would have been relatively easy to disable, leaving the bullet lightyears away from its target.

Huge oversight in my opinion.
Off panel excuse for Whedon aren't enough. He wrote this crap and it'll be down to him always to explain it outside of comics so later we can quote him and say "Well he meant to do this..." and then laugh at him as he takes 2 years to write a 4 issue mini.

Gaping plot holes were string through all off his run and this is just thin badly done icing on one crappy turd cake.

[timbox]

It's a magic bullet, ever heard of JFK? :tongue:


Gaping plot holes were string through all off his run and this is just thin badly done icing on one s***y cake.

I love sexy cake.

[Flâneur]

Still, you can't blame Whedon for sacrificing a sensical storyline for the sake of a 10 pages-long Spidey cameo.

Okay, you totally can. Nevermind.

Twenty pages of cameo, actually. I went back to the issue and counted.:redface:

It's very different from being on Excalibur, in which she was a veteran and one that other members looked up to. Compared to the others, she was really the rookie, or the one with less experience.
I'm sure Kurt, Captain Britain, Wisdom, Rachel and Colossus felt like utter rookies compared to Kitty as she most certainly was far more experienced than they.

[Charybdis4]

I'm quite interested to see who will be the 2nd in command of the Astonishing team.

I take it Scott will be in charge, but with Storm now part of the ranks, will she take the No.2 place (even though she's dressed in her mothers curtains) or will Emma retain her position?

[CMBMOOL]

Whedon really didn't do much with Kitty. He rested on aspects of the character that had already been presented and developed quite alot by another writer. He brought back the 13 1/2 year old character he fell in love with. To even further this statement he brought back her childhood relationship. Whom had cheated on her on more than one occasion. Bringing back Colossus romantic relationship with Kitty was pointless it didn't further her character by any means. Really she was the 13 1/2 year old that we fell in love with, minus the flatchest. I was waiting for that moment where I was like wow go Kitty. But I never got it, and if I did it would've probably been recycled. Other than getting rid of the character, nothing he did for her will be remembered ten years from now. And I do believe their are other writers out there that could've done a better job with the character.

But what Whedon did for Kitty was the one thing that we didn't get the first time and that was to have sex with Peter. I kind of remember him for that, even though Kitty now floating in space in a Giant metal bullet. :tongue:

[JKMD]

But what Whedon did for Kitty was the one thing that we didn't get the first time and that was to have sex with Peter. I kind of remember him for that, even though Kitty now floating in space in a Giant metal bullet. :tongue:

Once again, to clarify, Kitty is not in a giant metal bullet, she is a giant metal bullet.

At least, she's 7/8ths giant metal bullet...

[Kirayoshi]

He cheated on her during Secret Wars, with the Alien Lady. And The women from the Savage Land, but that might've been after she left. I don't quite remember.

Peter's dalliance in the Savage Land took place before he ever met Kitty. Just so you know.

Finally weighing in with the issue; I think I'd have liked it a lot better if the constant delays hadn't ground the pacing to a screeching halt. Plus it would have finished before Messiah Complex and Kitty's fate would have been more of a legitimate shock. On the plus side, Joss finally wrote Peter as a badass(as opposed to previous issues where he sounded kinda like Boris Badenov), and the shot of the bullet phasing through the planet was well done.

But it still felt lacking, especially since we already knew that Kitty wouldn't be coming back. It reminded me of the last Star Wars prequel. We already knew Anakin was going to become Darth Vader, there was no real way to put a twist into the story.

[darknessatnoon]

I'm quite interested to see who will be the 2nd in command of the Astonishing team.

I take it Scott will be in charge, but with Storm now part of the ranks, will she take the No.2 place (even though she's dressed in her mothers curtains) or will Emma retain her position?

None of those people, except for Armor, really need to take orders.

[DeniseXfrost]

Wolverine and Beast seem to take orders.

[AcesX1X]

Beast is a sub. He likes being told what to do.

Wolverine just doesn't want to deal with Scott's petulant backtalk.

[frog]

If there's a team, there's got to be a leader to coordinate. It doesn't even necessarily mean that the leader is more accomplished than the others but that he or she makes sure everyone is working together instead of at cross purposes.

[darknessatnoon]

Wolverine just doesn't want to deal with Scott's petulant backtalk.

LOL

Perfect summary of that relationship.

[Omega Alpha]

I'm sure Kurt, Captain Britain, Wisdom, Rachel and Colossus felt like utter rookies compared to Kitty as she most certainly was far more experienced than they.

Different situations. While she wasn't necessarily more experienced than most, she wasn't the rookie and there wasn't anyone whom she would look up to or feel threatened, since they were for the most part her equals (and in Colossus' case, the time he joined and how he did it couldn't be any more different).

[jarrod]

Different situations. While she wasn't necessarily more experienced than most, she wasn't the rookie and there wasn't anyone whom she would look up to or feel threatened, since they were for the most part her equals (and in Colossus' case, the time he joined and how he did it couldn't be any more different).
Eh... I think you could say the same for Astonishing. Outside her Emma brat attacks, she was a seasoned X-Man on pretty equal footing with and pretty comfortable with everyone else.

[Flâneur]

Different situations. While she wasn't necessarily more experienced than most, she wasn't the rookie and there wasn't anyone whom she would look up to or feel threatened, since they were for the most part her equals (and in Colossus' case, the time he joined and how he did it couldn't be any more different).

Hmm? Apart from Meggan (and arguably Wolfsbane) Kitty was the most inexperienced person of the entire Excalibur team and she did fine. The only person who ever intimidated her inexperienced self was Rachel and that's only because she was supposedly mega-hot.

Astonishing's membership doesn't really provide a reason for Kitty to feel intimidated or outclassed - she's always been shown to be anti-authority (you're a jerk!) - and I don't see the reasons you outlined being at all a factor. She's been around people who were both smarter than her and more experienced than her frequently since she first left the X-men without playing the rookie. The interesting thing is, that before she joined Astonishing, she was chatting to Wolverine in X-treme about how it's time she started her own dream as she'd outgrown the X-men and Charles' dream ... so I really don't understand how someone being a model X-man or more seasoned than her can play a part in a concept she's supposedly outgrown.

Not to mention, none of the New Mutants who've been at the X-institute in recent years have displayed this regression despite having similar factors at work - Dani, for example, was cordial with Emma despite their prior issues.

I also don't think Colossus joining in a different context really should reduce her status either - she'd moved on entirely by the time he was whingeing in Excalibur and him being back from the dead doesn't change that. Of course she'd care for him but it's not the infatuation of an immature girl anymore.

[melodyrider]

Bygones. :biggrin:

Kitty's in her twenties. Emma's been working with Xaiver for years now too, this stuff's all old news..

Emma was also deliberately encouraging Kitty to see her in the worst light possible. It would have been nice to see her sounding less petulant, but that's about the only objection I had to the whole dynamic those two had.

I think I'd have liked the Kitty/Pitor rekindling if maybe there'd been a bit more uncertainty on both their parts... feeling conflicted but still attracted would be understandable and realistic, but Whedon had them just idealistically fall back into it for the most part, true love, blah, blah...

And that sucked. Both had basically come to terms with their feelings (well Kitty had at least, I think Petey always kept the torch burning) and I'd have liked to see some conflicted emotions more. Kitty's pretty logical and headstrong too... I dunno, I really just think she especially fell into the relationship far too easily.

I think the "Dangerous" arc showed just enough uncertainty and emotional conflict on her part to satisfy me on that score, not to mention the doubts and issues she expressed at the start of Unstoppable. It was hardly nothing more cuddles and bedroom phasing accidents.

[Kage Kisaragi]

Eh... I think you could say the same for Astonishing. Outside her Emma brat attacks, she was a seasoned X-Man on pretty equal footing with and pretty comfortable with everyone else.

didn't take some time off for the super hero biz though?

[AcesX1X]

didn't take some time off for the super hero biz though?

I heard it's like riding a bike...

[jarrod]

Emma was also deliberately encouraging Kitty to see her in the worst light possible. It would have been nice to see her sounding less petulant, but that's about the only objection I had to the whole dynamic those two had.
That was almost all there was to their dynamic period?! Snappy sitcom aggression, cranked up to the nth degree.

I thought things ended on a good note, and I think a case could be made for the glacial scheduling exaggerating the issue (which is another whole debate in itself), but what we got was annoying and far too protracted.


I think the "Dangerous" arc showed just enough uncertainty and emotional conflict on her part to satisfy me on that score, not to mention the doubts and issues she expressed at the start of Unstoppable. It was hardly nothing more cuddles and bedroom phasing accidents.
The only real hesitation was in terms of reciprocation and possible rejection, there wasn't any apparent internal struggle on Kitty's end. That was my problem, it's like she was suddenly thriteen again.

Then again, I look at what Brubaker put Rachel through with that no-means-yes date rape garbage and maybe it's for the best it went this way instead. Had the relationship gone on, I would've liked to see Kitty struggle with having rushed it though...


didn't take some time off for the super hero biz though?
Sure, and then Mechanix/POF happened. Kitty's spent her whole post-adolesnce as an X-Man basically (or satellite X-Man, if you want to nitpick)... she's no rookie.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

That, and the other members of the team are the one X-man that is considerably smarter than her (Beast), her childhood love (Pete), a somewhat father figure (Logan), and the role-model X-man (Scott). And considering that Whedon wanted Storm on the team, is hardly a coincidence. Compared to the others, she was really the rookie, or the one with less experience.

Amen.

Cyke, Wolvie and Beast.

Totally old school. Hell, quasi-legendary. And then there's the Cyke Factor that prevents Wolvie from turning into a total wuss around his proteges.

Short of the 05, Banshee, 'Ro and Kurt, no one has any business not feeling a bit intimidated. And even then, some of them could be argued upon. If anything, Kitty was lucky she almost stood as an equal during the first 12 issues. Sheesh.

[jarrod]

Amen.

Cyke, Wolvie and Beast.

Totally old school. Hell, quasi-legendary. And then there's the Cyke Factor that prevents Wolvie from turning into a total wuss around his proteges.

Short of the 05, Banshee, 'Ro and Kurt, no one has any business not feeling a bit intimidated. And even then, some of them could be argued upon. If anything, Kitty was lucky she almost stood as an equal during the first 12 issues. Sheesh.
Eh, Kitty's initial character was partly defined by standing equal with the adults historically. She's quasi-legendary herself by this point, and certainly wouldn't be intimidated by Logan, Hank, Scott or Pitor (I mean, she wasn't before). Not even Emma really, there's just animosity there.

[melodyrider]

That was almost all there was to their dynamic period?! Snappy sitcom aggression, cranked up to the nth degree.

During the first two arcs, sure. After that there was far less snide brattiness in the way Kitty interracted with Emma.

The only real hesitation was in terms of reciprocation and possible rejection, there wasn't any apparent internal struggle on Kitty's end. That was my problem, it's like she was suddenly thriteen again.

At thirteen Kitty practically hung a sign on Peter that read "MINE" in big neon lights. This go-round was much different, in my opinion.

[jarrod]

During the first two arcs, sure. After that there was far less snide brattiness in the way Kitty interracted with Emma.
There were only two arcs afterwards, half the drawn out run we had to live Catty Pryde nipping at Emma's heels. And really, the turning point was only after Emma's admission of everything, there was never any maturity or growth on Kitty's end.


At thirteen Kitty practically hung a sign on Peter that read "MINE" in big neon lights. This go-round was much different, in my opinion.
Yeah, this time she actually got laid.

[melodyrider]

There were only two arcs afterwards, half the drawn out run we had to live Catty Pryde nipping at Emma's heels. And really, the turning point was only after Emma's admission of everything, there was never any maturity or growth on Kitty's end.

Nobody put a gun to Kitty's head and forced her to offer Emma the chance to talk about Scott's death.

Not that a gun would have intimmidated her all that much anyway. :biggrin:

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Eh, Kitty's initial character was partly defined by standing equal with the adults historically.

I'll have to disagree with ya on that one. More like the kid they put up with and were way too nice to in my book, but, eh, whatever.

Still, the dynamic was hardly the same. She's a grown up. The others shouldn't give a crap about hurting her feelings or being hard on her. Also, the team is lead by an x-man who does care but doesn't get kicks out of the creepy family motif. A somewhat more reserved attitude than in a Claremontopia isn't much of a stretch, is it?

[Flâneur]

I'll have to disagree with ya on that one. More like the kid they put up with and were way too nice to in my book, but, eh, whatever.
She was an annoying immature brat at the beginning when she was tagging along on missions against their will as she was effectively a student, and one who didn't respect their authority, while they had graduated and went on missions. It was the success of Kitty in this role that probably prompted them to greenlight the New Mutants in the first place. Anyway, later on she attained an equal standing with them rather than being the brat and you can tell most easily by looking at how Rogue took up the rookie status instead so Claremont didn't need to use Kitty's childishness as a plot point quite as often, allowing her to mature.

[princesa]

Emma is the kind of character just one step from a heel turn. I like her that way. But i always questioned if Scott loved her or if she just made him think he did.

[pariah-1972]

Emma is the kind of character just one step from a heel turn. I like her that way. But i always questioned if Scott loved her or if she just made him think he did.He just loves her whips and chains:wink:

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Anyway, later on she attained an equal standing with them rather than being the brat

Sure, she wasn't the brat anymore since Jubilee started annoying everyone, but I still don't see her as ever being a heavyweight. The AXM team, short of Pete, was just that. And keep in mind, he wasn't even alive to start with, lol. :tongue:

Anyway, Jarrod said 'initially'. To which I responded.

[Flâneur]

Sure, she wasn't the brat anymore since Jubilee started annoying everyone, but I still don't see her as ever being a heavyweight. The AXM team, short of Pete, was just that. And keep in mind, he wasn't even alive to start with, lol. :tongue:

Anyway, Jarrod said 'initially'. To which I responded.
Oh. I thought you meant her original tenure.

I don't agree with you there, if only because all of Claremont's favoured women were heavy weights - mega angst Rogue, mountain shattering butt floss wearing Psylocke, President Kitty with the ultimate genius, Queen Storm, universe destroying Jean and Emma the thong lord. The only one which hasn't really made it big at some point is rape lovin R'chel and that's partly because she's constantly switched with the more popular Jean.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Oh. I thought you meant her original tenure.

All of them...? :biggrin:

Sure, CC pushed her to be a brainy Storm, but it never had much weight in any book that wasn't written by him. Hell, even in Excalibur, a run that did Kitty good, she wasn't quite an "equal". Refer to the creepy overprotective vibe.

But, my hatred for Claremazons aside, give *any* writer but CC a book pairing Kitty with Cyke, Beast and Wolvie. She won't be treated as a kid, but there's no way she'll be treated like a heavyweight. And yes, the fact that Cyke doesn't fancy himself a creepy surrogate mommy & daddy like Storm and Kurt has to do with it.

[jarrod]

Sure, CC pushed her to be a brainy Storm, but it never had much weight in any book that wasn't written by him. Hell, even in Excalibur, a run that did Kitty good, she wasn't quite an "equal". Refer to the creepy overprotective vibe.
Naw, she was really the focal point of the Ellis run and often taking things into her own hands under Claremont and Davis as well. Not really much "overprotective" anything in the book either, bar maybe that one scene where Brian and Kurt laid down the rules for Wisdom, but c'mon... it's Wisdom. From the start of Excalibur even Brian was treating her like an equal and vouching for her abilities to the authorities.


But, my hatred for Claremazons aside, give *any* writer but CC a book pairing Kitty with Cyke, Beast and Wolvie. She won't be treated as a kid, but there's no way she'll be treated like a heavyweight. And yes, the fact that Cyke doesn't fancy himself a creepy surrogate mommy & daddy like Storm and Kurt has to do with it.
Reread Deadly Genesis, Enemy of the State, Blinded by the Light or about anything with her guest spotting during the Astonishing run. She was treated like a heavyweight, no question.

Hell, Brubaker even had her take up Emma's favorite passtime of belittling Alex when given the opportunity. :biggrin:

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Reread Deadly Genesis, Enemy of the State, Blinded by the Light or about anything with her guest spotting during the Astonishing run. She was treated like a heavyweight, no question.

By the writers, sure. But most x-men would still go for Cyke/Wolvie/Beast waaaayyy before Kitty. And if they're heavyweights, it kinda follows that she's not quite there yet.

Here's an analogy. Kitty is Cristiano Ronaldo. Well, according to CC anyway. Cyke, Wolvie and Beast and the (few, admittedly) likes are Luis Figo. Shame if you don't get it. :biggrin:

[jarrod]

By the writers, sure. But most x-men would still go for Cyke/Wolvie/Beast waaaayyy before Kitty. And if they're heavyweights, it kinda follows that she's not quite there yet.
Oh come on, this is a strawman if I've ever seen one.

Any twenty one year old that can hold her own against Emma Frost is clearly a heavyweight. And basically everywhere but Astonishing (bizarrely), she did that. Logan openly trusts her with his life, Hank treats her like a colleague, she's Emma's valued rival... the only one who you could maybe make a case for not outwardly showing Kitty as being on equal ground with them is Scott. Then again, you also don't really have any cases of him outwardly pulling rank on her, lording authority over her or seeing her "intimidated" by his quasi-legendary status either.


Here's an analogy. Kitty is Cristiano Ronaldo. Well, according to CC anyway. Cyke, Wolvie and Beast and the (few, admittedly) likes are Luis Figo. Shame if you don't get it. :biggrin:
Soccer's teh ghey.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

Oh come on, this is a strawman if I've ever seen one.

Damnit, I'm comparing her to the uber heavyweights. I clearly said no one but First and Second class qualified and even then that some of them arguably didn't.

I'm not exactly saying she's on Jubilee level, sheesh.

Then again, you also don't really have any cases of him outwardly pulling rank on her

Unstoppable...?

lording authority over her or seeing her "intimidated" by his quasi-legendary status either.

Actually, Cyke joked about how he doesn't intimidate anyone. And yet... most x-men know better. It's not as if the ones that didn't were painfully proven wrong during the past year or anything. :biggrin:

But regarding the Kitty/Cyke dynamic. Cause Cyke has been known to go against people that don't disobey direct orders...? Or, more to the point, know better? You do remember he doesn't get off on blasting the hell out of people that aren't Wolverine, right? :biggrin:


Soccer's teh ghey.

Oh no you didn't, why you...

Bah, it's okay. Live and let live, right? Well, not for Kitty, obviously, but you know what I mean. :biggrin:

[steve2275]

I'm quite interested to see who will be the 2nd in command of the Astonishing team.

I take it Scott will be in charge, but with Storm now part of the ranks, will she take the No.2 place (even though she's dressed in her mothers curtains) or will Emma retain her position?nightcrawler
o wait the sketchbook doesnt count:tongue:

[Flâneur]

By the writers, sure. But most x-men would still go for Cyke/Wolvie/Beast waaaayyy before Kitty. And if they're heavyweights, it kinda follows that she's not quite there yet.

Here's an analogy. Kitty is Cristiano Ronaldo. Well, according to CC anyway. Cyke, Wolvie and Beast and the (few, admittedly) likes are Luis Figo. Shame if you don't get it. :biggrin:

I don't know about that - Beast isn't exactly going to be able to inspire dissent anymore than Kitty could, he's just not that big of a 'heavy weight'. Especially when you consider his identity crisis for the last decade or so. He might be able to inspire loyalty in the 05 but his influence is probably less than Kitty's when outside that group.

The only one she really has any business being in awe of in that group is Wolverine and she's gotten over that hero worship. That said, even Armor has been shown talking to Wolverine as an equal nor is Rogue affected that way so I don't see why his presence would make Kitty so retro-tastic and inferior?

As for Cyke ... using that argument, no one but Storm and Cyke are heavy weights in the X-verse. So every single character should be reverting around them even though they don't.

[DarthCyclopsRLZ]

I don't know about that...

I'll take it you're not much of a soccer fan, eh?

Cause the analogy directly adress the 'worship vs knowing one's place' angle of the debate.

Oh well. Off for the day.

[Flâneur]

I'll take it you're not much of a soccer fan, eh?

Cause the analogy directly adress the 'worship vs knowing one's place' angle of the debate.

Oh well. Off for the day.

I look down upon sports of all kind! I'll ask one of the breeders to interpret!

[streator]

i finally read the issue last night. i liked it, even if it did not resolve everything.

it definitely read like a send-off. in a good way.

the spider-man parts were good. i also enjoyed the beast/agent brand parts too. i hope that relationship is followed up.

i thought the "everyone's saving the world in their dreams" part was kind of pointless but necessary to make kitty handle the situation on her own.

i also liked how they confronted kruun and were to the point about taking over his planet.

anyway, i'm okay with the story even though it didn't tie up many of the loose ends from the series. but, it's continuing & maybe ellis will address some of things.