The 25 Greatest Crime Movies

[thehod]

Spun from similar threads, and because I've just finished watching Once Upon a Time in America for the first time and I've been blown away by it (if you'll excuse the pun.)

Same rules as before?

Originally Posted by Justin Davis
Some rules:
1. You must have seen a movie to eliminate it.
2. This is the GREATEST, not "favorite", or "most influential". Just as a standard...
3. Try to be as specific as possible in narrowing down your choices.
4. You must DEFEND your choices. The better an argument you make, and the more articulate and detailed you can be, the better the list will end up being!
5. An addition (or deletion) will be made when FIVE people vote for (or against) it. If something you approve of is deleted, or something you diasgree with is added, you are free to argue for or against. But you will have to out-vote the intial FIVE. Easy enough!

I would have gone for just gangster movies, but thought the spectrum was too narrow as with this that brings in heist, con, whodunnit and a few other genres.

We're talking specifically about movies that have some element of crime in them, but movies that first and foremost recongised as crime movies. So Die Hard is out as its generally considered an action movie. I'm sure the debate will sort out what's what.

So the first few films outa my head, with some wiki help, the first 25 on the list are, and in alphabetical order...

Bonnie and Clyde
Boyz n the Hood
Carlito’s Way
Casino
Donnie Brasco
The French Connection
Gangs of New York
The Godfather Trilogy (or we can seperate these out)
Goodfellas
Heat
The Italian Job
Little Ceaser
Mean Streets
Murder on the Orient Express
Ocean's 11 (1960)
Once upon a time in America
Pulp Fiction
Scarface (1983)
Sexy Beast
Snatch
The Sting
Reservoir Dogs
Road to Perdition
The Untouchables
The Usual Suspects

That should get us started, and I'm positive there are some classics I've missed, and some entries that'll disappear very quickly, but its a start.

Over to you.

EDIT: and I know the title says ganster, whoops. Perhaps a kind mod will change that for me please.

[jesse_custer]

We should definitely consider each Godfather movie by itself. Because the third one ... is very mediocre.

The French Connection doesn't really fit the gangster tradition or have any truly "gangster" characters. It focuses on crime, yes, but it's also very focused on cops, moreso than even The Untouchables. I'm also not sure about Ocean's 11 because it's kind of a stupid buddy comedy/heist movie.

Other dubious initial choices:

The Sting
Murder on the Orient Express

Lastly, I nominate Miller's Crossing because it mixes homage with fine wit and a complex central character in Gabriel Byrne, whom you don't realize how much of a lost soul he is until the very end. It might also be the Coens best film.

Edit: My bad, I didn't read your entire post. I don't think we need to include heist movies and other genre films. There's enough gangster films out there.

[Jamal]

Mobsters-
Even with all the pretty boys it a decent telling of the rise of Lucky Lociano and crew. The detail were spot on what I read in the book "The last testaments of Lucky Lociano"

Hoodlum-
Another decent story of the rise of Halem Godfather Bumpy Johnson and his war with Dutch Schultz.

Deep Cover-
A very good gangster crime drama that was greatly underrater with career defining performace by Lawrence Fishburn and Jeff Goldblum. Siskel & Ebert called it the best movie of that year an were angry that it didn't get enough praise when it was in theaters.The title track is also the song that lanched Snoop Doggs rap career, you should rent this movie if you haven't seen it.

Menace to Society-
You can't have Boys without Menace each told a different side of the same coin about growig up in the ghetto. I personal don't see either as a gangster movie as suppose to a coming of age ( or surving to old age depending on how you look at it ) but you can't include one without the other IMO.

Layercake-
Incredible movie, one of the best british gangster movie IMO and the film that got us the best James Bond since Sean Connery. Great story very well acted without any weak moments, this is another most rent if you haven't seen it.

That's my five for now might think of some more later.

[Ontir]

I'd have to put Men of Respect, a re-telling of "MacBeth" in Little Italy, starring John Turturro up there!

[StoneGold]

Are we just talking American movies? Because otherwise, I'd like to nominate The Killer, which pretty much changed the way every gangster movie was filmed, and Infernal Affairs. Or the Departed. Both are great films in their own right, really.

[Jared]

Isn't The Killer an action movie?

I agree on seperating The Godfather. They're seperate enough films, not direct continuations. Plus, of course, Part III is really not up to par.

Ocean's 11 is a comedic caper movie. There may be gangsters in it, but then there are gangsters in Married to the Mob too.

Personally, I'd leave out Casino. The early segments, showing exaclty how the mob was scamming money out of Vegas, were cool. But the rest was decidedly lackluster. Joe Pesci is practically a parody of a Joe Pecsi character, who'll suddenly explode into violence. I thought Sharon Stone was needlessly overwrought, and really, there's nothing in this movie that isn't done better in other Scorcese movies.

I'd replace with The Departed. A twisting and exciting story of Irish mobsters and police. Great performances all around, with plenty of memorable supporting characters. A pretty damn bold, and (more importantly) effective, ending.

I have no problem with Infernal Affairs making it as well. Unlike the remake, it focues almost entirley on the premise of dueling double agents.

[Pól Rua]

I think the problem is with the thread title... because it's too vague.

Are we talking Crime Movies? Are talking Gangster Movies? Heist/Caper Movies?

And... uh... 'King of New York' isn't in there.
And 'The Long, Good Friday'

And if we're not going to allow 'The Killer', we could probably include either 'A Better Tomorrow' or 'City On Fire'.

Oh crimbles, and 'Brother' (Takeshi Kitano). Though it's really hard to nail him down to one film, too.

[Siddon]

I vote to eliminate
The Godfather III
The Italian Job (in place of Godfather II)
Murder on the Orient Express (in place of Layer Cake)
Ocean's 11 (1960) (Miller's Crossing)
Sexy Beast (On the Waterfront)
Snatch (Departed)
The Sting (Key Largo)

Departed
Layer Cake
Key Largo
Miller's Crossing
On the Waterfront

[Pól Rua]

If anyone starts talking about eliminating 'Miller's Crossing', I'm afraid we may have a problem.

[Siddon]

Key Largo: Is a great Ganster film, its the story of a handful of gansters on Vacation in Key Largo when a hurricane hits. Edward G Robinson is a terrifying villian in the film. Some might consider the film to be a noir but the plot, is more Ganster like.

On the Waterfront: The best day in the life of a ganster film. There is a great banality of the film, the crooks are low level the big action happens off screen.

Miller's Crossing: I don't remember much about this film aside from its beauty.

Layer Cake the superior British mobster film, I didn't really dig Sexy Beast or Snatch or Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels mostly because it was " to comedic". Layer Cake is a better film, has a really solid plot, a great lead performance.

Departed: see above

[Pól Rua]

'Layer Cake' is very good, but for excellent British mob action, I recommend Bob Hoskins as a proper scary bastard in 'The Long Good Friday'.

To me, 'Miller's Crossing' is the pinnacle of the 'gangster romance', in the sense that it's definitely more stylized and less concerned with 'realism' than many of its contemporaries, approaching its subject matter from a much more romanticised and stylised angle.
However, my main argument for it being retained is not so much that it has a definitive approach to the gangster genre inasmuch as the sheer quality of its execution.
It's the difference between being 'a great gangster film' and 'a great film which happens to be about gangsters'.

[Ontir]

Gangster #1 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0210065/) with Terrance Stamp and Paul Bettany was quite good!

le Circle Rouge (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065531/), a French mob-thriller with Alain Delon and Yves Montand is a favourite of mine.

[Shellhead]

I'm not sure I understand what Pol Rua is going on about, but I support the idea that Miller's Crossing should go on this list. Great gangster movie, Irish mobsters versus Italian mobsters, with one smart, moody mobster in the middle. And John Turturro's character is unforgettable.

[Justin D.]

Per the thread starter's request, the thread title has been changed from gangster to crime movies. Here are two good starting points.

A huge list of crime movies at FilmJabber (http://www.filmjabber.com/movie/genre/Crime/)
A Wikipedia article on crime films and the sub-genres that fall under it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_film)

[thehod]

Not wishing to irritate Justin by getting the thread name changed again, but does the wisdom of the board think theres a solid enough 25 gangster films to make the list, or should we just keep it at crime?

[Pól Rua]

I think 'Crime' may make for more interesting discussion.

Yeah, I get a little... uh... odd... with Miller's Crossing,

[jessecuster3]

You should specify that its the 1969 Italian job, which is the vastly superior film.




Deep Cover-
A very good gangster crime drama that was greatly underrater with career defining performace by Lawrence Fishburn and Jeff Goldblum. Siskel & Ebert called it the best movie of that year an were angry that it didn't get enough praise when it was in theaters.The title track is also the song that lanched Snoop Doggs rap career, you should rent this movie if you haven't seen it.

I totally agree with this one, its a fantastic movie, with an excellent acting job by Laurence Fishburne, probably his best role ever.



I'd replace with The Departed. A twisting and exciting story of Irish mobsters and police. Great performances all around, with plenty of memorable supporting characters. A pretty damn bold, and (more importantly) effective, ending.



I love The Departed, fantastic acting all around, moments that make you cry aloud, an unflinching ability to do whatever it has to to move the story forward.


For removal:

Oceans 11(1960) - this movie is a farce, it was never intended to be serious. Frank Sintara used it as an excuse to get his buddies to Vegas to party for a months on the studio's dime.

Carlito's Way - Its Brian dePalma ripping off his own movie Scarface to tell effectively the same story. Its has its moments but it really is a mish-mash of every great movie it mimics.

[jesse_custer]

I definitely need to see Deep Cover.

Granted, Carlito's Way isn't another Miller's Crossing or Reservoir Dogs, but I don't think it's a rehash of Scarface. It has a helluva big heart, so that automatically distances it from Scarface.

Lastly, I don't think Layer Cake is all that great. In fact, since we're talking about Carlito's Way, it seems like a hipper version of De Palma's film. Very predictable despite some cool camerawork.

Since we're going with crime movies in general, I don't think Layer Cake or Carlito's Way are strong enough movies to stick around. Neither of them are influential or groundbreaking. They're movies you watch to waste time.

And I nominate The Killing, directed by Kubrick and starring the overlooked Sterling Hayden. The big influence behind another great heist flick, Reservoir Dogs, complete with a time frame that was unusual--and revolutionary--for a 1950s film and a superb supporting cast that included the wounded heart antics of Elisha Cook Jr. Watch it and then wonder how it isn't as praised as 2001 and A Clockwork Orange.

[twilight]

Gangs of New York?

Sure there was crime involved but it wasn't really the point.

-Twi

[rick]

And I nominate The Killing, directed by Kubrick and starring the overlooked Sterling Hayden. The big influence behind another great heist flick, Reservoir Dogs, complete with a time frame that was unusual--and revolutionary--for a 1950s film and a superb supporting cast that included the wounded heart antics of Elisha Cook Jr. Watch it and then wonder how it isn't as praised as 2001 and A Clockwork Orange.





I would certainly replace Donnie Brasco, a decent, but unimportant film, with The Killing, for all the reasons you listed above as well as the fact that it is also just plain great fun to watch.


http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8239/422pxthekillingposterkuyb0.jpg




I would also throw in Hayden’s other crime classic, The Asphalt Jungle and have it replace the dull and listless, Untouchables, which is easily the worst film on this list.

The Asphalt Jungle is a taunt, realistic film about a jewel theft and the aftermath and has stand out performances not only from Hayden, but also Sam Jaffe, James Whitmore and a young Marylyn Monroe.


http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/1788/theasphaltjungleposterjo8.jpg



Meanwhile the Untouchables was a weak retelling of an excellent television series that has two good scenes, one of which is directly lifted from the Battleship Potemkin.





Another suggestion is to take out Gangs of New York, which is a fine film, but as far as I am concerned, not really a crime film, and replace it with the classic The Taking of Pelham One Two Three. Walther Mattheu and of all people, Jerry Stiller play two police officers on the scene of a subway hostage for cash situation in New York against the villainous gang led by the incomparable Robert Shaw made up of Mr Blue, Mr Gray, Mr Green and Mr Brown.


http://img186.imageshack.us/img186/8190/takingofpelhamonetwothrlw3.jpg





As those names alone should tell you this classic was a major influence on the works of both Tarantino and Rodriguez, but is also simply put, one of the best crime films ever made.





Another great crime film, also starring Walter Matthau, is 1973’s, Charlie Varrick. Matthau plays a small time bank robber who knocks over a bigger haul then he ever expected when he hits a small town bank that is actually a cash drop for the mob. How Matthau gets away with it, and how he survives against the mobs sweet and friendly enforcer, Tully, played by a truly scary, Joe Don Baker makes for one of the great “get-away” films of all time.


http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/7234/charleyvarrickbv4.jpg

[rick]

(more)


I could go on and bring up films like The Getaway, the original version of The Italian Job, The Public Enemy or The Killers, but I only have two more that really should be mentioned in a greatest list.



First off, I would remove Heat and replace it with 1972’s Lee Marvin and Gene Hackman semi-classic, Prime Cut. Marvin plays a mob enforcer sent out to rural Kansas to find out why Hackman sent back a mob collector as a bag of hot dogs. The story turns into a violent mess involving white slavery, drugs and some very dangerous farm machinery.


http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/3607/200pxprimecutdi5.jpg





Finally take off Road to Perdition a decent enough flick and replace it with the greatest psycho killer badman movie of them all, James Cagney's tour de force, as Cody Jarret in White Heat just has to make it to the list.

Top of the world Ma.


http://img524.imageshack.us/img524/8725/whiteheatyw3.jpg

[Mutate]

There was a list of best ever crime novels in a magazine the other day, but it was all serial killer/mystery things like Silence of the lambs and mr Ripley. No Godfather.

[jesse_custer]

I agree with rick about Asphalt Jungle, which is a very good choice that should have been mentioned earlier. I haven't seen most of the others he mentioned, but I know them by reputation and want to see all of 'em.

On the other hand, I disagree that The Untouchables is currently the worst movie on the list. Sean Connery's performance, while simplistic and not quite Irish with the accent, is extremely powerful especially during that famous and comically lampooned death scene. Billy Drago, giving an even simpler performance, is a son of a bitch you want to kill. Ennio Morricone's score is a frantic beast at times. True, De Palma swipes already great scenes and ideas, but so did Orson Welles (and pretty much everyone else) from John Ford, Quentin Tarantino from Martin Scorsese, Steven Spielberg from Stanley Kubrick, John Woo from Sam Peckinpah, and Michael Mann from Akira Kurosawa. The key is whether these scenes are updated and/or suitable for not only the modern context of the film world but the context of the film's story. The scenes and ideas De Palma steals are just that. And then he throws in over-the-top violence, such as Drago's character spelling out "Touchable" with Charles Martin Smith's blood, comical for its extremeness and oddly dramatic in a guilty way. It's certainly nowhere near the top of this list, nor would it be any closer or even on the list if the right films (e.g., The Killing, etc.) finally place, but I'd say it's better than the following: Carlito's Way, Donnie Brasco, Ocean's Eleven, Scarface, Heat, and Snatch, and maybe even a couple more.

Lastly, I definitely agree Gangs of New York, while stunning in its depth and with Day-Lewis, does not fit this list. If it stays, we might as well put Schindler's List on there now. That doesn't make sense, so Gangs doesn't make sense.

[kalorama]

Don't know that I'd classify Boyz in the Hood as a "crime" movie. Sure crimes were committed, but that's not really the crux of the film. It was a coming of age tale, more than anything else.

In its place I'd add "The Score" a little seen, under-appreciated heist flick starring DeNiro and Edward Norton. It's a great caper procedural with both actors delivering fine performances in a "student tries to conquer the master" storyline.

[thehod]

It seems my original list was rather piss poor.

Anyone fancy knocking up a more representative one?

[jessecuster3]

It seems my original list was rather piss poor.

Anyone fancy knocking up a more representative one?

No, its fine, it is supposed to be mutable. We just aren't getting the usual turnout, a couple of things have a couple of votes but that's it.

[Chiasm]

Does Memento count as a crime movie? Its about a guy on the hunt to track down the guy who killed his wife so it sort of is. I'll wait til I hear more opinions on whether its a crime movie before nominating something to remove.

[kalorama]

Good question about Memento. It could go either way, but I'm inclined to say no. Yes, the plot tilts around a crime, but the crux of the movie is more a psychological thriller rather than a crime thriller.

[mattx110]

For removal:

Oceans 11(1960) - this movie is a farce, it was never intended to be serious. Frank Sintara used it as an excuse to get his buddies to Vegas to party for a months on the studio's dime.

Carlito's Way - Its Brian dePalma ripping off his own movie Scarface to tell effectively the same story. Its has its moments but it really is a mish-mash of every great movie it mimics.
Carlito's Way is better than Scarface in every way.

The old Howard Hawks Scarface is good too.

[mattx110]

Also, Jet li in "my father is a hero" is an awesome film. And it's not a stupid martial arts action movie. A bit of melodrama in places, but it's from a kid's perspective for the most part.

[jessecuster3]

Carlito's Way is better than Scarface in every way.



Ok start with one way, then two ways, then even three ways, but arbitrary statements like that hold about as much water as a funnel.

[mattx110]

Ok start with one way, then two ways, then even three ways, but arbitrary statements like that hold about as much water as a funnel.
It's subtle. Doesn't have as many horrible fake accents in the main cast. The music isn't horribly dating. It's more in line with the kind of gangster film Scarface took the name of rather than a pastel explosion of macho bs.

[jessecuster3]

It's subtle. Doesn't have as many horrible fake accents in the main cast. The music isn't horribly dating. It's more in line with the kind of gangster film Scarface took the name of rather than a pastel explosion of macho bs.

Hmm, as subtle as a sledgehammer, Brain DePalma is the last director on earth that I would use "subtle" to describe. Its a period movie, inherently the music is going to be dated. Of course it was pastel, it was Miami in the late 70's/ early 80's in that respect they captured it beautifully, plus it was all about macho, everyone who has ever done cocaine is going to have that same false bravado, in this regard, DePalma actually did a good job.


Now Carlito's Way was just an excuse to tread those same streets again, yet this time he is Puerto Rican instead of Cuban, instead of Miami we are substituted the barrio. And in this one, every single moment is telegraphed way in advance, the movie just fell into predictability. We are supposed to believe Penelope Ann Miller is a dancer? She has the grace of a flamingo(plenty hot, however). Sean Penn overacts his way through his entire part. Oh and the whole premise, him buying his way into a nightclub, to stay out of trouble, give me a break, dude, even you cannot buy that.

[mattx110]

Hmm, as subtle as a sledgehammer, Brain DePalma is the last director on earth that I would use "subtle" to describe. Its a period movie, inherently the music is going to be dated. Of course it was pastel, it was Miami in the late 70's/ early 80's in that respect they captured it beautifully, plus it was all about macho, everyone who has ever done cocaine is going to have that same false bravado, in this regard, DePalma actually did a good job.


Now Carlito's Way was just an excuse to tread those same streets again, yet this time he is Puerto Rican instead of Cuban, instead of Miami we are substituted the barrio. And in this one, every single moment is telegraphed way in advance, the movie just fell into predictability. We are supposed to believe Penelope Ann Miller is a dancer? She has the grace of a flamingo(plenty hot, however). Sean Penn overacts his way through his entire part. Oh and the whole premise, him buying his way into a nightclub, to stay out of trouble, give me a break, dude, even you cannot buy that.
Maybe Sean Penn's character was on cocaine...

And the plan didn't work. It was about hope. Like Donnie Brasco... which also ended not-so-good, but probably a bit happier. I like Untouchables the most. It wasn't as much about criminals as police though. And actually had "scarface" in it.

[the goddamn batman]

The music isn't horribly dating. It's more in line with the kind of gangster film Scarface took the name of rather than a pastel explosion of macho bs.

You can't knock a film about Miami in the 80's for having 80's music and pastel colors everywhere.

This is one of several comments I've seen recently that knock movies for being a product of when they were made... and even more so, for properly representing their time period. It's just complete bullshit.

[mattx110]

You can't knock a film about Miami in the 80's for having 80's music and pastel colors everywhere.

This is one of several comments I've seen recently that knock movies for being a product of when they were made... and even more so, for properly representing their time period. It's just complete bullshit.
I prefer '70s. I guess it's my problem.

[jessecuster3]

I prefer '70s. I guess it's my problem.

Certainly not your only one.

[the goddamn batman]

I prefer '70s. I guess it's my problem.

It's got nothing to do with what you prefer... it's simply invalid to slight Scarface for taking place in 1980's Miami and having an 80's soundtrack.

Now, if it took place in 1980's Miami and had a 70's soundtrack... or vice versa, you could slight it for that.

[Julusnc]

Spun from similar threads, and because I've just finished watching Once Upon a Time in America for the first time and I've been blown away by it (if you'll excuse the pun.)

Same rules as before?


I would have gone for just gangster movies, but thought the spectrum was too narrow as with this that brings in heist, con, whodunnit and a few other genres.

We're talking specifically about movies that have some element of crime in them, but movies that first and foremost recongised as crime movies. So Die Hard is out as its generally considered an action movie. I'm sure the debate will sort out what's what.

So the first few films outa my head, with some wiki help, the first 25 on the list are, and in alphabetical order...

Bonnie and Clyde
Boyz n the Hood
Carlito’s Way
Casino
Donnie Brasco
The French Connection
Gangs of New York
The Godfather Trilogy (or we can seperate these out)
Goodfellas
Heat
The Italian Job
Little Ceaser
Mean Streets
Murder on the Orient Express
Ocean's 11 (1960)
Once upon a time in America
Pulp Fiction
Scarface (1983)
Sexy Beast
Snatch
The Sting
Reservoir Dogs
Road to Perdition
The Untouchables
The Usual Suspects

That should get us started, and I'm positive there are some classics I've missed, and some entries that'll disappear very quickly, but its a start.

Over to you.

EDIT: and I know the title says ganster, whoops. Perhaps a kind mod will change that for me please.

Chinatown
Bonnie and Clyde
The French Connection
The Godfather I
The Godfather II
Goodfellas
Heat
Little Ceaser
Pulp Fiction
Scarface (Pacino)
Scarface (Muni)
Snatch
The Maltese Falcon
Reservoir Dogs
The Usual Suspects
White Heat
Prime Cut
The Killing
The Departed
Infernal Affairs
The Thin Man
No Country For Old Men
Miller's Crossing
The Big Sleep
Touch of Evil

[mattx110]

It's got nothing to do with what you prefer... it's simply invalid to slight Scarface for taking place in 1980's Miami and having an 80's soundtrack.

Now, if it took place in 1980's Miami and had a 70's soundtrack... or vice versa, you could slight it for that.
Plenty of movies came out in the '80s without what are now horribly embarassing soundtracks.

[kalorama]

Plenty of movies came out in the '80s without what are now horribly embarassing soundtracks.

Not as many as anyone who watches 80s movies would like. Which is not a knock on the quality of the movies, per se. They're products of their times. But that doesn't make those synth solos and drum machines any less painful to listen to.

[Missaukeean]

starring Sterling Hayden -- great heist movie -- and the orginial "Getaway" starring the King of Cool, Steve McQueen.

[xgeek52]

i'd go with memento, white heat, key largo, the first two godfathers, the third man (think about it), postman always rings twice (the original) and double indeminty (the orginal)...

i agree about goodfellas as well...

[The Mutt]

I started by thinking of 10 great movies that were about a specific crime; either the commission of it, or the solving of it.

The Maltese Falcon
Body Heat
The Taking of Pelham One Two Three
Touch of Evil
Reservoir Dogs
The Sting
Murder on the Orient Express
The Big Lebowski
The Great Train Robbery (1979)
The Italian Job (1969)

Then there are 10 great movies about criminals:

Pulp Fiction
Dead End
White Heat
The Godfather
The Godfather part 2
Goodfellas
Leon
Miller's Crossing
Mean Streets
Bonnie and Clyde


Then 5 I just love for being so cool and funny:

Murder by Death
No Way to Treat a Lady
Who's Killing the Great Chefs of Europe?
Silent Partner
The Hot Rock

The French Connection, Fargo, The Untouchables, Donnie Brasco, Carlito's Way, Heat, Casino and Chinatown are all brilliant films that just never did it for me on a gut level.

Scarface is gangster porn. Vastly over-rated.

[xbox360gurl70s]

i never knew there was an oceans 11 1960 edition. but i think it sucks balls compared to the jampack stars of oceans 12 and 13

[jessecuster3]

i never knew there was an oceans 11 1960 edition. but i think it sucks balls compared to the jampack stars of oceans 12 and 13

Yeah Frank Sinatra and Dean Martin and Sammy Davis Jr. weren't stars, at all.

[moebius]

So...is there an updated list?

One thing I've noticed is the ...surely some great crime movies were made before 1960.

Like "Double Indemnity", "The Thin Man" and "The Maltese Falcon."

Ooooh, or how about "The Third Man?"

And of course...where are "Chinatown" and "LA Confidential?"

[Libaax]

Best crime movie ever is IMHO Le Samurai. With simple means,there is no cooler Film Noir and specially no one near Costello the Assassin.

[K'Nort]

Gangster #1 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0210065/) with Terrance Stamp and Paul Bettany was quite good!

le Circle Rouge (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065531/), a French mob-thriller with Alain Delon and Yves Montand is a favourite of mine.

I hated Gangster #1, but Stamp did an excellent job in The Limey, another crime movie. A personal favorite, but not Top 25 caliber.

Le Cercle Rouge is an excellent choice, and Rififi is in the same vein. (Both released on DVD by Criterion, which is not the worst source for a list of classics.)


Trouble is, you don't get many people on these boards willing to consider anything from before they were born or from another country.

[Libaax]

Anyone know if Alain Delon did more movies with Melvielle than Samurai and Le Cercle Rouge ?


My brother loaned Rififi from the library im gonna watch it for the first time tonight.

[stealthwise]

I gotta put a nomination up for The Dark Knight. Psychologically taut and intense throughout, the superhero element should in no way disqualify it from contention.

[Libaax]

Superhero movie isnt crime. No matter the qaulity it isnt crime.

No need to mix in the genres. Superhero fiction is one crime fiction is another....

[moebius]

Superhero movie isnt crime. No matter the qaulity it isnt crime.

No need to mix in the genres. Superhero fiction is one crime fiction is another....

Is Road to Perdition a comic book movie, just because it came out a as a comic first?

The Dark Knight is both crime fiction and genre [superhero] fiction. It's a crime movie that happens to be set in a universe introduced through genre fiction.

The Nolan Batman films are consciously attempting something that no other superhero movies have...they are grounding the exceptional elements within the boundaries of human capabilities. There's combat, and it's plausible (if not likely). There's tech, and it's plausible (if not likely). To me, it's as realistic as Count of Monte Cristo or the Bourne Identity ...there are fantastic elements, but there is no one thing about TDK that makes you say "no human, living or dead, could ever do this" even if the sum of its parts (a billionaire who is also an excellent combatant and master detective) is unbelievable. You couldn't make "Superman" or "X-Men" or even "Iron Man" if you took away certain crucial elements of the characters.

That's sort of the point all the reviewers are making re: TDK...it's a genre movie that transcends its genre. It's fundamentally a crime movie about three men in positions of power trying to reverse decades of corruption and crime in a major American city and how the criminals push back by turning to an anarchist terrorist with his own agenda. It's just that one of the men dresses up in tactical armor and physically assaults criminals, while the anarchist wears makeup.

[Damiean Dark]

TDK? no way its a good movie but clearly a summer blockbuster polished to try and look like a serious crime movie it in no way (for me) holds the suspense of the best crime movies i watched the usual suspects the other day if anybody says TDK is a better crime movie then that there will be trouble.:biggrin:

[Damiean Dark]

Is Road to Perdition a comic book movie, just because it came out a as a comic first?

The Dark Knight is both crime fiction and genre [superhero] fiction. It's a crime movie that happens to be set in a universe introduced through genre fiction.

The Nolan Batman films are consciously attempting something that no other superhero movies have...they are grounding the exceptional elements within the boundaries of human capabilities. There's combat, and it's plausible (if not likely). There's tech, and it's plausible (if not likely). To me, it's as realistic as Count of Monte Cristo or the Bourne Identity ...there are fantastic elements, but there is no one thing about TDK that makes you say "no human, living or dead, could ever do this" even if the sum of its parts (a billionaire who is also an excellent combatant and master detective) is unbelievable. You couldn't make "Superman" or "X-Men" or even "Iron Man" if you took away certain crucial elements of the characters.

That's sort of the point all the reviewers are making re: TDK...it's a genre movie that transcends its genre. It's fundamentally a crime movie about three men in positions of power trying to reverse decades of corruption and crime in a major American city and how the criminals push back by turning to an anarchist terrorist with his own agenda. It's just that one of the men dresses up in tactical armor and physically assaults criminals, while the anarchist wears makeup.

But the minute a guy in clown makeup and a guy with half his face burnt off enters the fry it loses all credibility and becomes a summer hero block buster that is trying to emulate a crime movie.

[moebius]

TDK? no way its a good movie but clearly a summer blockbuster polished to try and look like a serious crime movie it in no way (for me) holds the suspense of the best crime movies i watched the usual suspects the other day if anybody says TDK is a better crime movie then that there will be trouble.:biggrin:

It doesn't have to be better than the Usual Suspects...it just has to be better than the worst movie on the list. And it is, especially if the Untouchables is still on there.

[jessecuster3]

It doesn't have to be better than the Usual Suspects...it just has to be better than the worst movie on the list. And it is, especially if the Untouchables is still on there.

Whoa. I will defend Untouchables to the death. That movie is brilliant.

[moebius]

Whoa. I will defend Untouchables to the death. That movie is brilliant.

The thing that bothers me about the Untouchables is they took a perfectly good historical crime drama and turned it into an action cartoon. Turning Frank Nitti into a common thug and then dropping him off a roof to show how "badass" Elliot Ness was? No thank you.

But of course, YMMV. I'm sure you can find a movie on the list (whatever its current contents) that is worse than TDK. For me, it's Untouchables.

[jesse_custer]

Just because you can find one worse movie than Dark Knight doesn't mean Dark Knight should be on it. The list is already missing The Killing, Asphalt Jungle, Chinatown, etc., so in my mind Dark Knight is no nowhere near this list.

Also, Road to Perdition is clearly a crime drama, the answer is blurry for Dark Knight.

[moebius]

Just because you can find one worse movie than Dark Knight doesn't mean Dark Knight should be on it. The list is already missing The Killing, Asphalt Jungle, Chinatown, etc., so in my mind Dark Knight is no nowhere near this list.

Also, Road to Perdition is clearly a crime drama, the answer is blurry for Dark Knight.

I think it's fair to say that there are enough other deserving movies that TDK shouldn't be on the list (Snatch is on there? Honestly?). But I wouldn't say it's fair to ghettoize something for being a "genre" picture. Surely if I made a movie exploring classic crime themes and set it in a soft science-fiction setting, and it was on the level of Heat or the Godfather, you would call it a crime movie, yeah? Or would people cry that it's "sci-fi" and therefore doesn't belong?

I mean, you could shoot the Usual Suspects word-for-word and set it in 2100...that wouldn't make it any less a crime movie.

[jesse_custer]

I think it's fair to say that there are enough other deserving movies that TDK shouldn't be on the list (Snatch is on there? Honestly?). But I wouldn't say it's fair to ghettoize something for being a "genre" picture. Surely if I made a movie exploring classic crime themes and set it in a soft science-fiction setting, and it was on the level of Heat or the Godfather, you would call it a crime movie, yeah? Or would people cry that it's "sci-fi" and therefore doesn't belong?

I mean, you could shoot the Usual Suspects word-for-word and set it in 2100...that wouldn't make it any less a crime movie.

I'm not putting down Dark Knight in any way. It's just not clearly a crime movie. It has a lot of crime; but it also has a lot of characters who could not exist in the real world. Yes, even more mythic than Keyser Soze.

[moebius]

I'm not putting down Dark Knight in any way. It's just not clearly a crime movie. It has a lot of crime; but it also has a lot of characters who could not exist in the real world. Yes, even more mythic than Keyser Soze.

Obviously, someone like Bruce Wayne will never exist, but how is he any less realistic (if equally fictional) than Jason Bourne? How is the Joker less realistic than Hannibal Lecter? Really, what it comes down to is the makeup.

The only things I didn't feel were totally plausible in the movie were the Bat-Pod coming from the Tumbler, the Super-Sonar and Dent's facial injury not requiring complete sedation or months of rehabilitation. All of those things could have been remedied with little effort. At no point did TDK slip into "poison fear gas", "secret ninja society" or "microwave emitter" (real, but implausibly used) territory.

[jesse_custer]

Obviously, someone like Bruce Wayne will never exist, but how is he any less realistic (if equally fictional) than Jason Bourne? How is the Joker less realistic than Hannibal Lecter? Really, what it comes down to is the makeup.

The only things I didn't feel were totally plausible in the movie were the Bat-Pod coming from the Tumbler, the Super-Sonar and Dent's facial injury not requiring complete sedation or months of rehabilitation. All of those things could have been remedied with little effort. At no point did TDK slip into "poison fear gas", "secret ninja society" or "microwave emitter" (real, but implausibly used) territory.

I agree Dark Knight is more plausible than Batman Begins. Joker is less realistic than Lector because I have never heard of anyone like the Joker in real life. But we have had several intelligent cannibal serial killers.

[Agent Helix]

Regardless of whether it's a crime movie or a superhero movie or whatever, there's so many more deserving films than the friggin' Dark Knight, which is fun and good, but nowhere close to being an all time great film.

[Agent Helix]

I agree Dark Knight is more plausible than Batman Begins. Joker is less realistic than Lector because I have never heard of anyone like the Joker in real life. But we have had several intelligent cannibal serial killers.

Also, there's the whole "Joker can magically get giant bombs everywhere with no one noticing" thing that makes it pretty implausible. There's loads of disbelief to be suspended in Dark Knight to make it work.

[jesse_custer]

You definitely had to stretch your imagination. In a way, though, it made the Joker a more ironic character. He says he has no plan compared to everyone else in society, but obviously to pull off all that crazy shit you need to have a fucking plan.

[kalorama]

Also, there's the whole "Joker can magically get giant bombs everywhere with no one noticing" thing that makes it pretty implausible. There's loads of disbelief to be suspended in Dark Knight to make it work.

The same could be said of most films, regardless of genre.

[Libaax]

Is Road to Perdition a comic book movie, just because it came out a as a comic first?

The Dark Knight is both crime fiction and genre [superhero] fiction. It's a crime movie that happens to be set in a universe introduced through genre fiction.

The Nolan Batman films are consciously attempting something that no other superhero movies have...they are grounding the exceptional elements within the boundaries of human capabilities. There's combat, and it's plausible (if not likely). There's tech, and it's plausible (if not likely). To me, it's as realistic as Count of Monte Cristo or the Bourne Identity ...there are fantastic elements, but there is no one thing about TDK that makes you say "no human, living or dead, could ever do this" even if the sum of its parts (a billionaire who is also an excellent combatant and master detective) is unbelievable. You couldn't make "Superman" or "X-Men" or even "Iron Man" if you took away certain crucial elements of the characters.

That's sort of the point all the reviewers are making re: TDK...it's a genre movie that transcends its genre. It's fundamentally a crime movie about three men in positions of power trying to reverse decades of corruption and crime in a major American city and how the criminals push back by turning to an anarchist terrorist with his own agenda. It's just that one of the men dresses up in tactical armor and physically assaults criminals, while the anarchist wears makeup.



Superhero fiction is superhero in comic,movie,books mediums.

Road To Perdition was a crime GN and movie it wasnt superhero :wink:


You are mixing genre and medium talk here.

Batman can be a great crime story both in movie and comics medium. But in movies they usually only care about adventure,action or drama part i have yet to see Batman being a detective in any movie.

TKD isnt out here yet so i can talk after it if its crime or not. Seeing the trailer who had more explosions or freaky superhero stuff i wont expect a Batman Detective tale.

[hoffmandu]

LA Confidential as numero uno with China Town an uber close second.

[moebius]

LA Confidential as numero uno with China Town an uber close second.

Damn straight...or maybe the other way around.

[the goddamn batman]

Batman can be a great crime story both in movie and comics medium. But in movies they usually only care about adventure,action or drama part i have yet to see Batman being a detective in any movie.

TKD isnt out here yet so i can talk after it if its crime or not. Seeing the trailer who had more explosions or freaky superhero stuff i wont expect a Batman Detective tale.

He does some detective work in TDK.

I think TDK is totally a crime drama. Is it deserving of a spot in the top 25...? I dunno.

[the goddamn batman]

Joker is less realistic than Lector because I have never heard of anyone like the Joker in real life. But we have had several intelligent cannibal serial killers.

That doesn't make it less realistic. Joker is a guy with scars on his face who wears make up. That's pretty realisitic.

Just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it's less realistic. It just means nobody has done that.

[jesse_custer]

What is real now and potentially real are two different things. If a work of art proposes the former, I think it's fair to say it's more realistic.

[the goddamn batman]

I'm not going to argue the semantics of it with you. We're both smart guys. We both know that each is fully possible in the real world. Neither one more so than the other. The fact that one of these things has taken place doesn't change the possiblity of eithers ability to take place in the real world.

That's all I'm saying... but I'm sure you understood that.

[GuesssWho]

You definitely had to stretch your imagination. In a way, though, it made the Joker a more ironic character. He says he has no plan compared to everyone else in society, but obviously to pull off all that crazy shit you need to have a fucking plan.

Or else he's doing it all off the top of his head, which, given his madness-augmented intellect, is possible.

[jesse_custer]

I'm not going to argue the semantics of it with you. We're both smart guys. We both know that each is fully possible in the real world. Neither one more so than the other. The fact that one of these things has taken place doesn't change the possiblity of eithers ability to take place in the real world.

That's all I'm saying... but I'm sure you understood that.

Fair enough, there. We ARE smart guys.

[howaboutamagictrick]

With Goodfellas and the Godfather+ part II on the list, no other movies stand a chance

[Jared]

I never really got into Road to Perdition. Tom Hanks is merely OK in the role. I bought him as a guy trying to protect his son and make up for his mistakes, but never as a guy who had been a cold-blooded killer. I also thought it was way too easy for him to take out the bunch of guys who were coming after him.
Another problem for me is that Antony Lapaglia makes for a terrific Al Capone, but he's relegated to one deleted scene. If I were making a Capone movie, this is the guy I'd want to get.

The Dark Knight is a superhero movie that owes a great deal to crime fiction, but it just doesn't belong. By a similar token, I wouldn't consider Daredevil or Elektra (assume they were awesome) for a list of martial arts movies. They're superhero flicks first.

[mattx110]

Is "Blow" a crime movie? Or a fugitive drug dealer movie... where do we draw the line? And is it good enough? I'm not quite done watching it.

[Jared]

Is "Blow" a crime movie? Or a fugitive drug dealer movie... where do we draw the line? And is it good enough? I'm not quite done watching it.

I didn't think it was that good, but it's definitely a crime movie.

[the goddamn batman]

Anyobdy mention Dog Day Afternoon? How come Dog Day Afternoon isn't on the list? I nominate Dog Day Afternoon.

[AlyssaX]

Anyone mention Gangster Number 1 in this thread? Paul Bettany and Malcolm McDowell are far better in this movie than some of the overrated American mainstream cliches everyone always names in threads like this. Unbelievably psychotic performances. :D

[mattx110]

Can't find if it was discussed after a quick glancing, anyone like "Bother"?

Yakuza gone wild, and it's kinda bloody. Can't be bad.

[the goddamn batman]

Anyone mention Gangster Number 1 in this thread? Paul Bettany and Malcolm McDowell are far better in this movie than some of the overrated American mainstream cliches everyone always names in threads like this. Unbelievably psychotic performances. :D

Yeah, that's a great movie. Sadly, this list never really went anywhere... not like the Sci-Fi list did.

Anyone mention American Gangster? Beccause I'll slap you if you did.:biggrin:

[jfoxx]

The departed deserves to make the cut. Great acting (that runt from the titanic is actually growing up), just the right amount of action, the dialog was full of wit, and there was humor, be it dark, in the right places.

then again, you could say the dark knight it a great crime movie. but let's not go there.

[Black Vespa]

I know that No Country For Old Men is fresh on everyone's minds, - but if you're going to pick a crime movie from the Coen Bros. vault, i think that their 1st movie....

Blood Simple would be a better representation, talk about modern crime film noir. this movie put them on the map.

if you think the Departed should be on this list, then you apparently haven't seen the original movie it was base on. Infernal Affairs. i would easily place this above the Departed...easily. That's saying alot considering it's a hong kong movie with all asian actors and subtitles. go see it.


Brick - If you haven't seen it, go watch it now..today. it's got the feel of a hard-boiled Hammett or Chandler novel (think Maltese Falcon and Big Sleep respectively)---BUT is set in modern times, - in a teenage high school setting, - done in a very cool way, - stars Joseph Gordon Levitt, and a cast of other younger actors. Joseph Gordon Levitt walks, talks and you think you're watching Phillip Marlowe in action..only younger. Just like a true hard-boiled detective story, the hero gets his ass handed to him several times....i could go on about this movie, but i'll end with saying the dialogue was beautiful and well acted....

The Big Sleep and Maltese Falcon are obvious choices, - but kudos to the poster that submitted The Killing...this is one of Stanley Kubricks earlier films, -as the other guy said, stars Sterling Hayden...a group of crooks plan out and carry through a heist at racetrack, - with all the people involved the results are dark and bleak...one more thing about this movie, - everyone wants to go on and on as though Quentin Tarantino invented the non-linear plot.....nuh-uh...it was done well before he was even conceived....the non-linear plot is brilliantly executed in this movie.

if we're talking crime film, - let's talk....Le Samouraï...yeah, that's right, - foreign film...and french, no less, - deserves to be in this list more than most of the suggestions i've seen on this thread...the story is about a hitman that doggedly abides the bushido code, more or less. lives in a sparse apartment..he's never been caught because he's a methodical perfectionist. ...the director of this movie is just as much a perfectionist as each scene is seamless and well-paced. the finale is the big payoff in this movie...

as for crime movies...why hasn't anyone mentioned Rear Window by Alfred Hitchcock?...this should be in the list. if you don't know why, then go buy/rent/steal/borrow it.

[Robindra]

Get Carter - and I mean the Michael Caine one.

[Libaax]

I know that No Country For Old Men is fresh on everyone's minds, - but if you're going to pick a crime movie from the Coen Bros. vault, i think that their 1st movie....

Blood Simple would be a better representation, talk about modern crime film noir. this movie put them on the map.

if you think the Departed should be on this list, then you apparently haven't seen the original movie it was base on. Infernal Affairs. i would easily place this above the Departed...easily. That's saying alot considering it's a hong kong movie with all asian actors and subtitles. go see it.


Brick - If you haven't seen it, go watch it now..today. it's got the feel of a hard-boiled Hammett or Chandler novel (think Maltese Falcon and Big Sleep respectively)---BUT is set in modern times, - in a teenage high school setting, - done in a very cool way, - stars Joseph Gordon Levitt, and a cast of other younger actors. Joseph Gordon Levitt walks, talks and you think you're watching Phillip Marlowe in action..only younger. Just like a true hard-boiled detective story, the hero gets his ass handed to him several times....i could go on about this movie, but i'll end with saying the dialogue was beautiful and well acted....

The Big Sleep and Maltese Falcon are obvious choices, - but kudos to the poster that submitted The Killing...this is one of Stanley Kubricks earlier films, -as the other guy said, stars Sterling Hayden...a group of crooks plan out and carry through a heist at racetrack, - with all the people involved the results are dark and bleak...one more thing about this movie, - everyone wants to go on and on as though Quentin Tarantino invented the non-linear plot.....nuh-uh...it was done well before he was even conceived....the non-linear plot is brilliantly executed in this movie.

if we're talking crime film, - let's talk....Le Samouraï...yeah, that's right, - foreign film...and french, no less, - deserves to be in this list more than most of the suggestions i've seen on this thread...the story is about a hitman that doggedly abides the bushido code, more or less. lives in a sparse apartment..he's never been caught because he's a methodical perfectionist. ...the director of this movie is just as much a perfectionist as each scene is seamless and well-paced. the finale is the big payoff in this movie...

as for crime movies...why hasn't anyone mentioned Rear Window by Alfred Hitchcock?...this should be in the list. if you don't know why, then go buy/rent/steal/borrow it.

Your taste in crime are perfect :)

Most of those movies i loved to bits.


Brick was awesome, Infernal Affair 100 times better than the american remake joke !


Le Samouraï is prolly the coolest crime movie ever. Have you ever seen Johnny To movies ? He is the modern version of Meiville and he is actually doing a remake of Circle Le Rogue. If you havent seen Johnny To watch Election,Mad Detective.


Sterling Hayden i saw for the first not so long ago in Asphalt Jungle, he awed with his portrayel.

I havent seen The Killing yet but i planned to not because of Kubrick but Hayden.

I discovered Cornell Woolrich noir books recently that i plan to read his classic books and see the movies of course.

Blood Simple ? Who is in it ? Is that irish gangster story with Albert Finney and Gabriel Byrne ?

[jesse_custer]

Miller's Crossing is the one with Finney and Byrne. It's probably the best or second best Coen brothers movie (vying for the top spot with No Country For Old Men).

Blood Simple stars Dan Hedaya and Frances McDormand. About a bloody affair. A very good movie, but I think the Coen brothers were just getting started with it.

I also think Johnny To is pretty great. Fulltime Killer was a cool action flick.

[Agent Helix]

Aside from sentimental favorite, the Hudsucker Proxy, Miller's Crossing is far and away my top Coen pick.

[Libaax]

Miller's Crossing is the one with Finney and Byrne. It's probably the best or second best Coen brothers movie (vying for the top spot with No Country For Old Men).

Blood Simple stars Dan Hedaya and Frances McDormand. About a bloody affair. A very good movie, but I think the Coen brothers were just getting started with it.

I also think Johnny To is pretty great. Fulltime Killer was a cool action flick.

Miller's Crossing is my favorite movie of theirs. Great acting and so cool story that gave awesome vibes of hardboiled crime stories. The way they talked was awesome !

Not even No Country for old men was that enjoyable.


Speaking about Johnny To, i enjoy his lean,calm crime movies. Not much of action in those but great stories. Reminds me of the style Jean-Pierre Melville best crime movies.

Election movies,Mad Detective are the best of those i have seen so far.