Fantastic Four #557 *spoilers*

[CaptainCanada]

In brief:

* Reed smashes Alyssa's robot with his even-bigger robot.
* Then he turns Alyssa down.
* And goes on a time-travelling anniversary dinner with Sue.
* Johnny finds his criminal girlfriend lying naked on his bed with strategically-placed money she just stole from a bank, and still can't help himself.
* Doom arrives at the Baxter Building, demanding to see Reed Richards...

Hmm, interesting. Looking over Millar's whole first arc, there's a lot of approve of, but some quibbles with the execution of the threat. CAP is totally perfunctory, and not even Millar in this issue seems to really be all that invested in him. "World's Greatest" serves as a platform to introduce Millar's various long-term plots, and CAP is blatantly only here to give the Fantastic Four someone to fight. His defeat is not particularly creative (Reed smashes the big robot with his ever-bigger robot), though it does play into the whole issue of Alyssa's feelings for Reed (namely, that Alyssa put Reed's name on the list of people CAP can't hurt). Around that, though, there's a lot to like here; following CAP's loss, we get a series of epilogues, all of which work great; the characterization is good, and Sue and Reed's anniversary dinner is a particularly fun mix of sci-fi and romantic comedy. The Johnny plot is the most fun thing in these four issues, so I hope we get more of it in future issues. All this plus the promise of lots of Doctor Doom in the next issue.

[Old No.7]

You know what I found good about this issue was the sub plots. I found myself not really caring about it, but the stuff between Mr and Mrs. Fantastic, her analysis of Reed and Sue's relationship, the lame gift Sue gave Reed, the stuff w/ Johnny and the whore and the cover up of Nu-World. Also Doom at the end.

Good stuff.

[CMBMOOL]

Well Dr. Doom's apperance is from the SI #1 issue where he escapes.

Still kind of boring of seeing Reed and Sue still love each other with Reed dismissing his ex. Makes me wish for a OMD situtation for the FF to go through. :tongue:

[ZeoVGM]

Friggin' awesome issue. How can anyone not like his run so far? Especially this issue. The Sue/Reed stuff was so good.

I'm a little confused though. How is that Doom after he escapes in SI #1, when he escapes the same time Reed gets owned by a laser gun?

Am I missing something here?

[drwho]

I can proudly say I skipped this this month.

[ZeoVGM]

I can proudly say I skipped this this month.

You can't proudly say that though.

Because it was good. Best in his run so far, easily. Much better than the other 3 issues which were good, but not of this level of quality.

And not only that, if you didn't read it, you can't be proud, because you have no opinion on this issue.

Ah, and I see you're on the dramatically small boycott ASM bandwagon too. Figures.

[Magneto Rocks]

It amuses me how radically split people are on Millar's FF. I mean, there seem to be an awful lot of peopel who LOVE it and an awful lot who HATE it and very few who don't have a strong opinion one way or the other. Even in critical reviews it seems to vary between either 5 stars or 1 star. Personally, I am still loving it but I'm a Millar fan in general. I genuinely do think that SOME people are just seeking things to hate (For example, the scorn heaped on the idea of Reed having a giant robot, even though we've him pull seen far, far more ridiculous things throughout the series- Hell, in the generally loved "Unthinkable" he actually went after Doctor Doom with Giant Sci-Fi guns, and it went by with nary a peep.) and blowing minor tihngs into BIG deals. (Half the discussion of last issue was centered on why pro and antis are working together, despite this being a fairly minor plot point and something which requires only a little suspension of disbelief.

But then, I admit I'm biased. ;)

[Mark_S]

I haven't been picking it up, but I am curious as to why Johnny is suddenly jumping into bed with a criminal. You'd think after Lyjja he'd try to find someone trustworthy. How long has he known this one? And is she a skrull?

Mark_S

[Weapon Ick]

I have been kind of annoyed with Millar's run on this title up until now. This issue was perfect. It was very sweet and romantic actually. The cute sentimental stuff is what appealed to me the most. I thought the giant mech was cool but what impressed me more was the fact that Reed is a Bob Dylan fan. It was funny when Ben said that he has a man-crush on Reed because now I think I can relate. :)

[jackolover]

Friggin' awesome issue. How can anyone not like his run so far? Especially this issue. The Sue/Reed stuff was so good.

I'm a little confused though. How is that Doom after he escapes in SI #1, when he escapes the same time Reed gets owned by a laser gun?

Am I missing something here?

My feeling is that Millars run is after SI. Lets wait and see.

[Alphaxman]

I’m finding Millar’s run to be very boring. Wow Reed saved the day with a giant robot with all the vast hero army watched in awe. Wow Reed had to show his never ending love for his wife even though she no where near as smart as he is. Wow Millar had to show how grand his imagination is by having Reed give Sue a Micro-Galaxy on a ring. Wow Johnny is such a guy that he thinks with his dick instead of using his common since. I haven’t seen Johnny juvenile this in like forever. :rolleyes:

I like the Fantatic Four when all four have a hand in the defeat of an enamy not just Know-It-All Reed.

Hitch wasn't bad this issue but it something about his faces I don’t like. And Johnny flaming on looks a hot mass.

Story: 4
Art: 8.5

[jackolover]

Wow Johnny is such a guy that he thinks with his dick instead of using his common since. I haven’t seen Johnny juvenile this in like forever. :rolleyes:


Story: 4
Art: 8.5

I can only surmise Millar disputes the idea that Johnny burns up his girlfriends in the middle of sex, otherwise why would Millar keep having Johnny hop into bed so much in 4 issues?

[Monty_Cristo]

Wow Johnny is such a guy that he thinks with his dick instead of using his common since. I haven’t seen Johnny juvenile this in like forever. :rolleyes:

my theory is that Eric O'Grady got ahold of an image inducer. or skrull.

[Grimm]

I haven’t seen Johnny juvenile this in like forever. :rolleyes:



I generally don't like Millar's run, but I gotta say that this is a silly criticism, lots of people act out of lust. Even when they know better.

[Alphaxman]

I generally don't like Millar's run, but I gotta say that this is a silly criticism, lots of people act out of lust. Even when they know better.

It's one thing to sleep with someone that you know is wrong like when you’re in a relationship with someone else but it totally different when it’s somebody you know is a criminal and it’s your job to stop them. It not like he found out what she was after he slept with her. It’s one of the main reasons why he’s sleeping with her and I never saw Johnny like that and I’ve been reading FF since the mid-80’s

[ultramandingo]

......so why didnt miller let reed use the super robo galacatus suit to stomp on unregesterd super creeps ( or the hulk )

[Grimm]

......so why didnt miller let reed use the super robo galacatus suit to stomp on unregesterd super creeps ( or the hulk )

Don't get the issue til tomorrow, I live in the UK, but is this the same robot that Gorgon stole plans from in Millar's "Wolverine:Enemy of the State" ?

[CaptainCanada]

......so why didnt miller let reed use the super robo galacatus suit to stomp on unregesterd super creeps ( or the hulk )
There's no indication of when he built it (and it costs 1 billion dollars a second to run).
Wow Johnny is such a guy that he thinks with his dick instead of using his common since.
....
Yeah, that's Johnny.
I haven’t seen Johnny juvenile this in like forever. :rolleyes:
Waid's run (which also engaged in the eternally futile attempt to make Johnny grow up, which never works for long; Millar's take, as he explains it, actually makes a point of this inconsistency).

[jackolover]

There's no indication of when he built it (and it costs 1 billion dollars a second to run).

....


Yeah well, that will just about eliminate the CAP killer for use in CW, so Clor was the fallback idea, and if Reed had a short time to work out the bugs, that maybe why Clor was such a jerk.

[Monty_Cristo]

......so why didnt miller let reed use the super robo galacatus suit to stomp on unregesterd super creeps ( or the hulk )

same reason i'm not using my cell phone; it was charging.

[drwho]

Guess Millar can't even get the date around their wedding anniversary right. :wink: For a good book you all should read this. It is like Millar is trying to stuff all that is great about the FF into one lousy story arc while he is on it. Funny how in this very book they went on a time travelling wedding anniversary of sorts.

http://www.comics.org/graphics/covers/15701/400/15701_4_001.jpg

[DeadXMan]

I was hoping for a much better Mecha fight. :mad:

The only good art was the last page
( ofcorce it's hard not to make a great Dool pic)

[Splatt]

Probably the best issue from Millar's run. Really, really enjoyed the aftermath of CAP battle.

[XPac]

I was hoping for a much better Mecha fight. :mad:

The only good art was the last page
( ofcorce it's hard not to make a great Dool pic)

Yeah, I had higher expectations for the mecha fight too. That was disappointing.

[Omega Alpha]

It's one thing to sleep with someone that you know is wrong like when you’re in a relationship with someone else but it totally different when it’s somebody you know is a criminal and it’s your job to stop them. It not like he found out what she was after he slept with her. It’s one of the main reasons why he’s sleeping with her and I never saw Johnny like that and I’ve been reading FF since the mid-80’s

So, Johnny is juvenile because he sleeps with a bank robber? So, I imagine Tony Stark is a baby, he slept with Madame Masque after all...

And this issue was excellent, not so much due to the main story, but because of the subplots. And there's Doom next issue!:cool:

[XPac]

So, Johnny is juvenile because he sleeps with a bank robber? So, I imagine Tony Stark is a baby, he slept with Madame Masque after all...



To particially quote Namor, at least the bank robber didn't look like Dr. Doom.

[Magneto Rocks]

Ahem, as I've said elsewhere, this was my favourite issue of the run yet- and my favourite issue of FF in... a long, long time.Sure, the art's uneven, but for every bad little shot, there's one like the Cap vs Anti-Galactus fight in general which is INCREDIBLE- not to mention that last page.

And honestly, sometimes I can see the problems in Millar's writing, but other times I do think people are looking for things to hate *because* it's Millar. This arc is one of the most soundly plotted I've seen Millar do- he tends to rely on deus ex machinas but everything was set up. Anti-Galactus? Mentioned in issue one. (With the cost mentioned in both that and this.) CAP not being able to hurt him? A logical development set up last issue. Alicia's attempt to get back with him? Been obvious since #544. The Micro Galaxy in the Ring? What he went away for in the second one. (And also, in retrospect we know Ben was lecturing Reed on his marriage while Reed was going to get his gift for Sue!) Ben? With the girlfriend he picked up in the run's first issue. The need for a nanny? Mentioned last issue, and in 544. I don't think it's a deus ex machina if it's set up logically by the issues proceeding it and as far as I'm concerned this was a fine example of a plotted arc.

I agree the moments AFTER the fight were the best though- despite my fears, Millar probably writes the best Reed I've seen since Waid, who REALLY got him. And the moment where Reed takes Sue back to show her the moment they first met- Vintage FF. I can see the complaints about the mecha fight, but it made a lot of sense and was set up by previous issues- and truth be told, I would have had a lot more problems if he was able to out-fight it when the Sentry couldn't.

[brundlefly]

You know what I found good about this issue was the sub plots. I found myself not really caring about it, but the stuff between Mr and Mrs. Fantastic, her analysis of Reed and Sue's relationship, the lame gift Sue gave Reed, the stuff w/ Johnny and the whore and the cover up of Nu-World. Also Doom at the end.

Good stuff.

I agree with your take. The main plot with CAP and Reed's mech suit was junk ("Reed, look out! CAP was designed to be unbeatable." :rolleyes: I had no idea that was such a simple and straightforward design concept), but the small character stuff between Reed/Alyssa and Reed/Sue, plus the Doom appearance, sold it, imo. Those elements made this the best issue of this team's run so far. Which is cool, as I was concerned after the witless battle royale with CAP last issue that this run was headed straight downhill and I was considering dropping it if the next ish was more of the same.

[jackolover]

Ahem, as I've said elsewhere, this was my favourite issue of the run yet- and my favourite issue of FF in... a long, long time.Sure, the art's uneven, but for every bad little shot, there's one like the Cap vs Anti-Galactus fight in general which is INCREDIBLE- not to mention that last page.

And honestly, sometimes I can see the problems in Millar's writing, but other times I do think people are looking for things to hate *because* it's Millar. This arc is one of the most soundly plotted I've seen Millar do- he tends to rely on deus ex machinas but everything was set up. Anti-Galactus? Mentioned in issue one. (With the cost mentioned in both that and this.) CAP not being able to hurt him? A logical development set up last issue. Alicia's attempt to get back with him? Been obvious since #544. The Micro Galaxy in the Ring? What he went away for in the second one. (And also, in retrospect we know Ben was lecturing Reed on his marriage while Reed was going to get his gift for Sue!) Ben? With the girlfriend he picked up in the run's first issue. The need for a nanny? Mentioned last issue, and in 544. I don't think it's a deus ex machina if it's set up logically by the issues proceeding it and as far as I'm concerned this was a fine example of a plotted arc.

I agree the moments AFTER the fight were the best though- despite my fears, Millar probably writes the best Reed I've seen since Waid, who REALLY got him. And the moment where Reed takes Sue back to show her the moment they first met- Vintage FF. I can see the complaints about the mecha fight, but it made a lot of sense and was set up by previous issues- and truth be told, I would have had a lot more problems if he was able to out-fight it when the Sentry couldn't.

Is there any mention of the Counter Earth project being stopped? With CAP running amok and destroyed, doesn't the whole premise of the project fall down without security?

[Magneto Rocks]

Is there any mention of the Counter Earth project being stopped? With CAP running amok and destroyed, doesn't the whole premise of the project fall down without security?

The opposite- the project's full speed ahead. They'll just need a different angle for security. Preferably a less homicidal one.

[jackolover]

The opposite- the project's full speed ahead. They'll just need a different angle for security. Preferably a less homicidal one.

Thanks Mags

[jackolover]

Well, I've just read this.

Only reason Reed beat this CAP thing is because his Anti-Galactus thing had a 'no-can-touch-button'.

This seemed awefuly rushed as a read. Sue calling Ben 'Big Fella' didn't fit her character. Johnny asking 'how can something so wrong, feel so good?' was an extention of his cowardous in the face of this CAP, when he says he was glad he didn't have to face it again because he was scared of that thing.

I was intrigued by the Cabinet meeting at the White House, (who were the archetects of the plan for counter Earth), saying they were continuing the project, like it was one of the places to retreat, if the super humans wreck the earth, or, Project WideAwake leaves the earth with Clors roaming the real one.

The Allyssa and Reed conversation seemed too familiar by both of them. They haven't met in like what, 40 years Marvel time, and they talk like they were secret friends the whole time? Even Sue knows this? Too much stuff is taken for granted by Millar.

Didn't you just love the tribute to Jack Kirby with that fine Hitch full pager of the anti-Galactus? That was so awesome.

I don't know if I trust old Mrs Tabitha Deneuve. Looks like a thread, something like Stan Lee would use and reintroduce 3 issues later. And another Lee trick was the last page reveal of Dr Doom appearing. I wonder if this run by MiIlar and Hitch is a Lee/Kirby tribute, of some sort? Because the offhanded way the threat was disposed of in the 4th issue just feels like something those two would do.

Not sure where this story fits, because the FF bringing together the anti and pro-reg sides feels pre-SI, yet has a very new flavor about it. We see Spiderwoman and Hank Pym appear in this issue, and it would be nice to know if they are Skrulls or the real deals. And I don't know why Reed needed to save the day, if Dr. Strange was there, because Stephen could just teleport CAP to the Negative Zone. Unless Stephen is a Skrull and can't do any of that. Coupled with Sentry, there just seems to be too much suspension of disbelief going on in this issue, for this to work, when you have such big heavy hitters available and Reed spends all his money on a CAP buster suit.

[CaptainCanada]

The Allyssa and Reed conversation seemed too familiar by both of them. They haven't met in like what, 40 years Marvel time, and they talk like they were secret friends the whole time?
No, she's appeared in both the Claremont and Waid runs on Fantastic Four (Claremont created her).
Not sure where this story fits, because the FF bringing together the anti and pro-reg sides feels pre-SI, yet has a very new flavor about it.
It's pre-SI; Doom's appearance here is between MA #11 and SI #1.

[hawkeye comeback]

The only reason i bought the ff is due to the creative team and i have never felt let down by them yet

carry on the good work is all i can say to millar and hitch

[jackolover]

No, she's appeared in both the Claremont and Waid runs on Fantastic Four (Claremont created her).

.

Allyssa also appeared in a retcon story, before the FF formed, so apparantly, before the Claremont and Waid appearances Reed and Allyssa were well known to each other. I read the Waid run, and Allyssa hardly had much influence, romantically. I'm unfamiliar with the Claremont run.

[Baltho08]

So...if Reed has an Anti-Galactus robot, why didn't he use that in WWH?
Peace.

[Magneto Rocks]

So...if Reed has an Anti-Galactus robot, why didn't he use that in WWH?
Peace.

It's a million dollars a second, can't be deployed in the middle of New York, would kill the Hulk (Which Reed didn't want to do) and frankly, Hulk in WWH wasn't the same kind of threat as CAP. Not to mention that we don't know if he'd finalised the design by WWH.

[XPac]

The robot stuff really can be distracting to the story if you think about it too much.

To assume that Sentry and Dr. Strange can't handle the stupid robots seem kinda silly to me... as does the notion that Reeds robot could fight Galactus. If there's any sort of weapon you're going to create to fight Galactus, it's not going to be a giant robot. It's on the cartoony side.

It's not really a big deal... in a lot of ways I almost think all the robot stuff is just secondardy stuff just thrown in there, and the story as a whole might have been tighter without it.

[Baltho08]

It's a million dollars a second, can't be deployed in the middle of New York, would kill the Hulk (Which Reed didn't want to do) and frankly, Hulk in WWH wasn't the same kind of threat as CAP. Not to mention that we don't know if he'd finalised the design by WWH.

Okay, that may be the case. But if it was ready, wouldn't it make more sense to use than to warp the entire island of Manhattan into the Negative Zone, as Iron Man proposed?
Peace.

[cousindick]

You know what I found good about this issue was the sub plots. I found myself not really caring about it, but the stuff between Mr and Mrs. Fantastic, her analysis of Reed and Sue's relationship, the lame gift Sue gave Reed, the stuff w/ Johnny and the whore and the cover up of Nu-World. Also Doom at the end.

Good stuff.

I agree with you--the Cap robot thing was an excuse to give Hitch big splash pages to draw. I loved his artwork, the Kirby-esque touches, worth the price of admission.

Story-wise, I think Millar is much stronger writing about the FF as characters with individual personalities. Johnny Storm seems more vibrant as a character than he has in years. I love this scene where Psionics is waiting for him in bed. It's inspired by that Demi Moore movie Indecent Proposal, but I don't care, this is the most outrageous scene in 40+ years of the FF. Johnny asks: "How can something so wrong feel so right?" I can't wait to see where this relationship goes.

Millar has a charming view of Reed and Sue's relationship as well. Reed rebuffs the advances of his first flame, Alyssa, and celebrates his anniversary with Sue with a sentimental dinner in the past. Millar hasn't hit the Thing yet, but I hope he will soon. The very last page with Doc Doom is surprising, given Millar's comments on various sites that he would not be using old FF villains for a while.

[Iron Maiden]

While Hitch is a good tech artist (and that was more of a homage to Transformers than the King ), he has given us the fugliest Sue I have ever seen. This is, to paraphrase from FF:ROTSS, one of the planet's hotties yet she looks more like a long lost relation to Jimmy Durante in this panel...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/FF557/SueMeet.jpg

Even using Jessica Alba as an obvious template, she still don't look that great...(and a tip of the hat to Doc Shallot at Alvaro's FF comicbook boards for pointing this out. I knew it looked suspiciously like the movie. I'm not saying artists shouldn't use photo reference but this isn't even a very well done face. Certainly, this is a distracting weakness of his IMO. I keep looking at Johnny and at times he looks anywhere from 15 to 50. He does a better Thing than McKone did however.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/FF557/SueCompare.jpg

I didn't even find his Doom all that impressive, of contemporary artists I would have to say Jim Lee did one of the best. I would have loved to have seen Neal Adams try it though... wonder if he ever has, perhpas as a commission. And besides Jack Kirby himself, Gene Colan was known to draw a pretty decent Doom, especially in Astonishing Tales #8. I should post the splash page of that, which I have at home. Colan and Tom Palmer were always gold together.


As for RoboCap, well he went down like Tonya Harding came after him with a baseball bat. Methinks Millar when Alyssa refers to her failsafe, he is thinking of the better known Killer Robots that were featured in Lee and Kirby's FF #84-87 arc, robots that were too heavy too float. To paraphrase Doom, the Master of Robotics, any robot that does not obey is not even worth keeping around the castle as a doorstop.

RoboCAP was simply a rather large coatrack to hang the various subplots on but at least we should know what in the heck he did to knock out all those 40 odd superheroes. Did Alyssa program it to stun and not kill, and why, especially when it fried all those soldiers. Even all the Secret Service had to disarm for fear of being targets. At least Stan and Jack's pseudo scientific explanations showed some thought was put behind it when demonstrating why Doom's Killerbots were so deadly and it was something you could buy into...(but then it's probably unfair to compare Millar/Hitch to them at this early stage)


http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y195/IronMaiden99/FF557/FF84Fury.jpg

I thought the insertion of the W and Condy show clumsy and unnecessary. For one, I don't believe for a minute that India, China and Russia would take our word for it that RoboCAP's rampage was just an "OOPS"...especially in light of the Iraq situation and how that evolved.

The Torch is probably the hardest character to deal with in the comics, yet ironically the movies do succeed to a great extent. Having Johnny say he was "terrified" of RoboCAP is ridiculous, even as an aside. He has stood shoulder to shoulder with his team mates and faced Galactus, fer cryin' out loud. If anything, he is too impetuous at times in his younger characterizations. Of course, it's anyone's guess what age he is these days since very few writers have followed up on his registering as a college student eons ago when he first met Wyatt Wingfoot. And his hooking up with Psionics, an obvious felon, is not in character. He's a rescuer .... he's always been attracted to the girl who needs to be saved from something, like Crystal, or Alicia the Skrull Wife, or the Wizard's daughter.

The only good part about the whole arc is that I do like the interlude with Reed and Sue. Reed's present showed some thought at least, even if I think Sue came off as a cheapskate...:biggrin: but maybe there was another "present" later. I am hoping for better things from the Doom's Masters storyline, which I assume will be addressed within the "Death of The Invisible Woman" arc.

[Mister Mets]

This was a decent arc. Great character moments, some excellent concepts and excellent art (though the pastel color scheme isn't the best fit for this series.)

The story had its flaws, namely in the battle scenes with CAP (though I did buy the reason CAP went nuts.) I'm looking forward to the next arc, even if the cliffhanger came out of nowhere.

[jackolover]

Even using Jessica Alba as an obvious template, she still don't look that great...(and a tip of the hat to Doc Shallot at Alvaro's FF comicbook boards for pointing this out. I knew it looked suspiciously like the movie. I'm not saying artists shouldn't use photo reference but this isn't even a very well done face. Certainly, this is a distracting weakness of his IMO. I keep looking at Johnny and at times he looks anywhere from 15 to 50. He does a better Thing than McKone did however..

Fabulous pics of the Alba and Hitch template. That's breathtaking!



The Torch is probably the hardest character to deal with in the comics, yet ironically the movies do succeed to a great extent. Having Johnny say he was "terrified" of RoboCAP is ridiculous, even as an aside. He has stood shoulder to shoulder with his team mates and faced Galactus, fer cryin' out loud. If anything, he is too impetuous at times in his younger characterizations. Of course, it's anyone's guess what age he is these days since very few writers have followed up on his registering as a college student eons ago when he first met Wyatt Wingfoot. And his hooking up with Psionics, an obvious felon, is not in character. He's a rescuer .... he's always been attracted to the girl who needs to be saved from something, like Crystal, or Alicia the Skrull Wife, or the Wizard's daughter.

.

I've had to do some rethinking about the Torch as well. When Millar depicted Johnny in Civil War, being beaten up by a mob, to me, it showed Millar was traeating Johnny like a sidekick of Sue. He had no character, and was a prop throught the whole CW right up to the time Iron Man smashed him for creeping up on Tony from behind.

It's no wonder Millar has Johnny disenchanted with the public and being heroic after the mob beating, and it's no wonder Johnny hangs with bad girls who operate outside the law. That relationship with Psyionic is a two way street, as well. She came on to Johnny, and that doesn't normally happen to heroes from bad girls. She is obviously attracted, and Johnny can't turn off the attraction button in his pants either. Millar is giving us a pretty WANTED style Johnny Storm, very unlike the Stan Lee Torch hero we've been used too, and maybe it's a result of his assault in CW. It could be a combination of withdrawal and disenchantment that the Torch is going through. I would like to see Johnny rage at Reed for the way Reed was detached from the family and from visiting him in hospital. There has to be some unresolved issues there, and that's about all the leeway I'm willing to extend to Milar on Johnny Storms characterisation.

[Loner]

Given the bad girl's name, don't you think it's at least a possibility that she is mentally manipulating Johnny?

Also, it had to be more than thirteen years since Reed and Sue met. Ben had his Bar Mitzvah commemorating his thirteen years of being the Thing! And Val has apparently aged a good year or two since then.

Which brings us to another point. Johnny is getting damn close to thirty to still be acting so...adolescent.

[jackolover]

Given the bad girl's name, don't you think it's at least a possibility that she is mentally manipulating Johnny?

Also, it had to be more than thirteen years since Reed and Sue met. Ben had his Bar Mitzvah commemorating his thirteen years of being the Thing! And Val has apparently aged a good year or two since then.

Which brings us to another point. Johnny is getting damn close to thirty to still be acting so...adolescent.

So, are psyionic people able to manipulate other people to do what they want, or can they just move objects?

[CaptainCanada]

I think it can refer to either telepathy or telekinesis, but she's never demonstrated any of the former, and having her mentally manipulate him kind of goes against the tone of her appearances so far.

[Mr. Sam]

I think this whole Nu Earth thing could have done with one extra issue. Of course, there are practicalities to consider, etc. etc.

Seriously though, just felt kind of rushed. Not really that big a fan of the Anti-Galactus suit (which is actually a billion dollars a second to operate), but I suppose it performed its job within the story.

The whole Reed/Alyssa thing felt like it happened one issue too soon, as did all the loose ends coming together. As big a fan of Millar I am, I always felt he was a bit weak on his conclusions. Case in point, that crazy Asgardian showdown in Ultimates 2.

[randy]

This arc is one of the most soundly plotted I've seen Millar do- he tends to rely on deus ex machinas but everything was set up. Anti-Galactus? Mentioned in issue one. (With the cost mentioned in both that and this.) CAP not being able to hurt him? A logical development set up last issue. Alicia's attempt to get back with him? Been obvious since #544. The Micro Galaxy in the Ring? What he went away for in the second one. (And also, in retrospect we know Ben was lecturing Reed on his marriage while Reed was going to get his gift for Sue!) Ben? With the girlfriend he picked up in the run's first issue. The need for a nanny? Mentioned last issue, and in 544. I don't think it's a deus ex machina if it's set up logically by the issues proceeding it and as far as I'm concerned this was a fine example of a plotted arc.
Nice job tying together the issues.

I wonder if this run by MiIlar and Hitch is a Lee/Kirby tribute, of some sort? Because the offhanded way the threat was disposed of in the 4th issue just feels like something those two would do.
Certainly does -- thanks for the reminder!

Allyssa also appeared in a retcon story, before the FF formed, so apparantly, before the Claremont and Waid appearances Reed and Allyssa were well known to each other.
JL, do you recall where the retcon appeared?

I'm happy to say that this arc and SI are the first current comics I've read in years! (I came back to comics 3 years ago, but have been catching up with trades/reprints.) Here's where my being out of touch leads to a question: Has there been some previous mention of Reed working on the anti-Galactus? At first I thought Reed whipped up him up just for CAP. But I guess even Reed couldn't be that quick? Maybe anti-G is just a throwaway as others have mentioned. If so, that's one big throwaway.

[tkitna]

I have a hard time believing that a robot smacked around practically the whole marvel universe and Reed had to save the world by beating up the bad robot with a robot of his own. Just really dumb and lazy storytelling to me.

Yup, i'm done with it.

[Capt USA]

I generally don't like Millar's run, but I gotta say that this is a silly criticism, lots of people act out of lust. Even when they know better.

sorry, but Johnny making out with a criminal that he was just chasing is bad, him hooking up with a girl that basically tells him she stole money makes him a villain. He only has two choices at that point in time, one tell her to turn herself in with a time frame or turn herself in himself. No other option remains for him to be called a hero.

[jackolover]

JL, do you recall where the retcon appeared?

I'm happy to say that this arc and SI are the first current comics I've read in years! (I came back to comics 3 years ago, but have been catching up with trades/reprints.) Here's where my being out of touch leads to a question: Has there been some previous mention of Reed working on the anti-Galactus? At first I thought Reed whipped up him up just for CAP. But I guess even Reed couldn't be that quick? Maybe anti-G is just a throwaway as others have mentioned. If so, that's one big throwaway.

The Books were called, 'Before the Fantastic Four, Reed Richards' #1-3, which came out in 2000.

As for Anti-galactus, I'm certain that's Millars idea, so I doubt it's been mentioned before.

[DeadXMan]

Why do they need a giant robot (besides chicks dig them) when they have the ultimate nullifier and Thor both of which has made Big G turn tale.

not that would of been interesting, Reed using the UN on CAP only to have take out of his hands by Sue and it destroys her instead.

[Tobias Drake]

Why do they need a giant robot (besides chicks dig them) when they have the ultimate nullifier and Thor both of which has made Big G turn tale.

not that would of been interesting, Reed using the UN on CAP only to have take out of his hands by Sue and it destroys her instead.

He probably began construction on it while Thor was dead. And even now, they don't really have Thor. While it's true that Thor would get involved if something threatened to destroy the Earth, including his new Asgard, it's also true that they can't really rely on, "If something big happens, we'll go beg someone else to take care of it rather than have our own means of handling it".

Reed is much like the government in that respect; "Someone else will do it so we don't have to worry" isn't an option.

[Old No.7]

If Richards really wants to save the planet he'll call this superhero:

http://origin.aintitcool.com/images2007/gore.jpg

[DeadXMan]

If Richards really wants to save the planet he'll call this superhero:

http://origin.aintitcool.com/images2007/gore.jpg

what the hell is he goona do?
Show a slide show?

[Mr. Sam]

Nope, but he will solve the problem of MBP. ManBearPig, that is.

Don't understand why people are disowning this title. It was just one issue, and any problems were minor at best.

[Abrojo]

I used to love Millar, but this arc has been crap. Totally lost my faith in the guy.

Don't understand why people are disowning this title. It was just one issue, and any problems were minor at best.

Not a single issue, the whole arc. So that gal made a robot that can wipe the whole MU worth of heroes? and the antiGalactus suit out of nowhere?

This whole arc looked more like a What If that something set in continuity. The best thing of the arc was the New Earth and it wasnt explored enough.

[Tobias Drake]

Nope, but he will solve the problem of MBP. ManBearPig, that is.

Don't understand why people are disowning this title. It was just one issue, and any problems were minor at best.

I'm disowning the arc. I'll wait and see on the title. :tongue:

Not a single issue, the whole arc. So that gal made a robot that can wipe the whole MU worth of heroes? and the antiGalactus suit out of nowhere?

Maybe it's just me, but between this, Last Fantastic Four, Ultimate Thanos, etc. etc., it's starting to become a recurring theme in which the Fantastic Four have to be pimped by having "An enemy appears. The entire MU combined is no match for him because he's so awesome. But here comes the Fantastic Four, who can deftly handle this unstoppable threat!"

It was irritating the first time, and it's now irritating AND old. Are the Fantastic Four really infinitely superior to the entire rest of the MU to the extent that they can consistently defeat threats that every other superhero combined cannot? I didn't like this concept the first time I saw it, and I am beyond sick of it.

[Mr. Sam]

I used to love Millar, but this arc has been crap. Totally lost my faith in the guy.

Totally? Over one arc? Even if this was atrocious, which I maintain it's not, that's a bit strong.

Not a single issue, the whole arc. So that gal made a robot that can wipe the whole MU worth of heroes? and the antiGalactus suit out of nowhere?

Eh, people make too much out of continuity errors. I agree, maybe they shouldn't have had CAP fight a roster of superheros with Iron Man, Sentry and Dr. Strange in their ranks, but it doesn't really take away from the point of the whole story. Same with the Ant-Galactus suit, which didn't really come out of nowhere. In a medium where people are constantly pulling stuff out of their arse, it was better explained than a lot of things.

This whole arc looked more like a What If that something set in continuity. The best thing of the arc was the New Earth and it wasnt explored enough.

It was explored plenty in the first two issues. Problem being, it just suddenly stopped being the focal point in the last two, despite Millar drawing us deep into it beforehand. I don't think it's entirely over yet though.

Also don't get the criticism of Hitch's art. I lurve it.

[Mr. Sam]

It was irritating the first time, and it's now irritating AND old. Are the Fantastic Four really infinitely superior to the entire rest of the MU to the extent that they can consistently defeat threats that every other superhero combined cannot? I didn't like this concept the first time I saw it, and I am beyond sick of it.

Reed did have to fire up his giant robot of megadoom (my name's much better) though. And the other three were as useless as the rest of the heroes.

[Tobias Drake]

Eh, people make too much out of continuity errors. I agree, maybe they shouldn't have had CAP fight a roster of superheros with Iron Man, Sentry and Dr. Strange in their ranks, but it doesn't really take away from the point of the whole story. Same with the Ant-Galactus suit, which didn't really come out of nowhere. In a medium where people are constantly pulling stuff out of their arse, it was better explained than a lot of things.

I notice Reed does a large percentage of this arse-pulling.

Reed did have to fire up his giant robot of megadoom (my name's much better) though. And the other three were as useless as the rest of the heroes.

His giant megabot of doom that completely trashed CAP in a single punch. Which automatically makes it more powerful than every single hero on Earth combined.

[Mr. Sam]

I notice Reed does a large percentage of this arse-pulling.

As a standalone arse-pull (gross) it wasn't that bad. The Anti-Galactus suit had already been mentioned in the same arc. It tied together, maybe not neatly or satisfactorily, but it did tie together. And the guy has a lot of projects on the go, what can I say?

His giant megabot of doom that completely trashed CAP in a single punch. Which automatically makes it more powerful than every single hero on Earth combined.

Again, continuinty errors, continuity smerrors. It'll soon be forgotten. And it was designed to beat Galactus. How much it costs reflects how powerful the suit was, methinks.

[Tobias Drake]

As a standalone arse-pull (gross) it wasn't that bad. The Anti-Galactus suit had already been mentioned in the same arc. It tied together, maybe not neatly or satisfactorily, but it did tie together. And the guy has a lot of projects on the go, what can I say?



Again, continuinty errors, continuity smerrors. It'll soon be forgotten. And it was designed to beat Galactus. How much it costs reflects how powerful the suit was, methinks.

Things like this create a problem of scale, however. I honestly hope the whole suit is never spoken of again, because its existence means that nothing will ever be dangerous again. It will only be a question of, "How bad does bad have to be before Reed pulls out his More Powerful Than God Suit?" Doom? Thanos? Annihilation Wave? Pfft. Reed has a suit more powerful than the entire MU. Skrull invasion? Please. Reed has a suit that can beat Galactus. Mephisto? Bah. Reed has a suit more powerful than all the sorcerors on his world combined.

This thing needs to be forgotten, and fast. It's a tremendously bad idea that damages the sense of danger in the fictional universe the characters live in.

[Mr. Sam]

...Maybe it turns out the suit produces large amounts of CO2? That'd put an end to it, for sure. And yeah, I was actually thinking of the same problems you were thinking - I think the same problem is encountered by powerful characters who "hold back", however.

[XPac]

Things like this create a problem of scale, however. I honestly hope the whole suit is never spoken of again, because its existence means that nothing will ever be dangerous again. It will only be a question of, "How bad does bad have to be before Reed pulls out his More Powerful Than God Suit?" Doom? Thanos? Annihilation Wave? Pfft. Reed has a suit more powerful than the entire MU. Skrull invasion? Please. Reed has a suit that can beat Galactus. Mephisto? Bah. Reed has a suit more powerful than all the sorcerors on his world combined.

This thing needs to be forgotten, and fast. It's a tremendously bad idea that damages the sense of danger in the fictional universe the characters live in.

Having it forgotten would be kind of a waste though.

I think there are in-story things they can do to deal with the suit. Maybe have some villain take control of the thing, forcing the heroes to fight and destroy it. Or maybe have Galactus actually show up and trash the thing.

I don't think it should just be lying around for the reasons you mentioned... but I think now that they threw it out there it needs to be dealt with.

[Mr. Sam]

I think perhaps Reed could have used his brains to destroy the robot. Like, I dunno, create a paradox that makes it head explode. Like, erm, informing it that it is in fact the most dangerous weapon on Earth itself. That works frighteningly well for something I just dreamed up in two seconds.

[Tobias Drake]

I think perhaps Reed could have used his brains to destroy the robot. Like, I dunno, create a paradox that makes it head explode. Like, erm, informing it that it is in fact the most dangerous weapon on Earth itself. That works frighteningly well for something I just dreamed up in two seconds.

I can only imagine that it was programmed not to regard itself as a dangerous weapon in need of destroying. In which case, telling it that it is would result in a "Uh...no, I'm not" response, because it's programming inhibits it from considering your suggestion as valid. Machines, unlike people, are typically unswayed by convincing arguments against their programming. This thing displayed no sign of sentience whatsoever, holding steadfast to its programming. Reasoning with it, in any way, would be meaningless.

If it was NOT programmed such, and actually is capable of regarding itself as a dangerous weapon, then the woman who designed it is deeply retarded.

[Mr. Sam]

I can only imagine that it was programmed not to regard itself as a dangerous weapon in need of destroying. In which case, telling it that it is would result in a "Uh...no, I'm not" response, because it's programming inhibits it from considering your suggestion as valid. Machines, unlike people, are typically unswayed by convincing arguments against their programming. This thing displayed no sign of sentience whatsoever, holding steadfast to its programming. Reasoning with it, in any way, would be meaningless.

If it was NOT programmed such, and actually is capable of regarding itself as a dangerous weapon, then the woman who designed it is deeply retarded.

Having a failsafe that it could remove itself was a pretty retarded move, so why not?

[Old No.7]

what the hell is he goona do?
Show a slide show?

Only Al Gore knows how to save the planet.

[jackolover]

Things like this create a problem of scale, however. I honestly hope the whole suit is never spoken of again, because its existence means that nothing will ever be dangerous again. It will only be a question of, "How bad does bad have to be before Reed pulls out his More Powerful Than God Suit?" Doom? Thanos? Annihilation Wave? Pfft. Reed has a suit more powerful than the entire MU. Skrull invasion? Please. Reed has a suit that can beat Galactus. Mephisto? Bah. Reed has a suit more powerful than all the sorcerors on his world combined.

This thing needs to be forgotten, and fast. It's a tremendously bad idea that damages the sense of danger in the fictional universe the characters live in.

I took this weapon, (C.A.P), as similar to the robot in, 'The Day the earth stood still', (Which comes out this year, starring Keanu Reeves and Jennifer Connelly). It was unbeatable, could destroy all earth based tech, and could destroy the planet. From that standpoint it failed, because as a Gort, C.A.P could be destroyed by earth tech Reed Richards. I really wanted C.A.P to survive and be reprogrammed to be this sentry that could appear out of nowhere and take on threats too big for Reed Richards.

[rZi]

Another enjoyable issue.

Im glad the CAP storyline is over...i can't wait to see what Doom is upto.

Psionics is hawtness...millar totaly needs to keeps this up! :cool:

[da gooch]

to me, this arc really was on the wack side. I think I will Be dropping FF till Millar kicks rocks

[Mr. Sam]

I'd recommend picking up the next issue at least. This arc is over. I actually enjoyed it pretty throughly, despite problems with fridge logic.

[Tobias Drake]

I took this weapon, (C.A.P), as similar to the robot in, 'The Day the earth stood still', (Which comes out this year, starring Keanu Reeves and Jennifer Connelly). It was unbeatable, could destroy all earth based tech, and could destroy the planet. From that standpoint it failed, because as a Gort, C.A.P could be destroyed by earth tech Reed Richards. I really wanted C.A.P to survive and be reprogrammed to be this sentry that could appear out of nowhere and take on threats too big for Reed Richards.

I think that would cause about as much damage to the fictional universe as keeping the More Powerful Than God Robot that Reed built around would. A giant deus ex machina whose sole purpose is to make nothing a threat to the characters in the story ever again is the end of excitement and the death of fiction.

[jackolover]

I think that would cause about as much damage to the fictional universe as keeping the More Powerful Than God Robot that Reed built around would. A giant deus ex machina whose sole purpose is to make nothing a threat to the characters in the story ever again is the end of excitement and the death of fiction.

Only if you used it in a yawn. But if it was available as a last resort, I think it would work. You'd have to put it away like the destroyer armor, and it shouldn't appear for 4-5 years. This thing that the Atlas company have got seems pretty powerful, as well, but it is rarely used. Doesn't ruin the whole of fiction.

[Magneto Rocks]

I think that would cause about as much damage to the fictional universe as keeping the More Powerful Than God Robot that Reed built around would.

Umm... the only reason the robot even worked was because of Alicia's code, which was not a deus ex machina since it was clearly established by previous issues that such a code existed and this expansion of it made sense. The core of this arc was never with CAP and Anti-Galactus, it was with Reed and Alicia- and, by extension, Sue.

Reed didn't "save the day with a magic robot", he merely exploited Alicia's mistake. And did so while being badass in a giant robot. ;)

[Tobias Drake]

Only if you used it in a yawn. But if it was available as a last resort, I think it would work. You'd have to put it away like the destroyer armor, and it shouldn't appear for 4-5 years. This thing that the Atlas company have got seems pretty powerful, as well, but it is rarely used. Doesn't ruin the whole of fiction.

Except it does, because it IS available as a last resort, meaning any conflict that doesn't involve bringing it out is therefore meaningless. How could one ever take any villain seriously that didn't require Reed to bust out his Godbot? How much danger can the characters be in that it's still not dangerous enough to whip out the Godbot for? How can the threat be taken seriously if it's "Dangerous, but not dangerous enough to justify my deus ex machina".

To have such a powerful weapon available in emergency situations automatically makes any situation in which it is not used meaningless, because the villain is automatically not threatening enough to justify its use. Let's take, for example, Doom. Doom has a plot to destroy the Fantastic Four! Reed plans to fight back against him, however, he doesn't really feel Doom is threatening enough right now for the Godbot so he doesn't bring it out. Doom isn't quite dangerous enough at the moment for it, because the Fantastic Four can handle him without it.

Now. How the hell, given this situation, is Doom supposed to be considered a credible threat? Either suddenly EVERY situation requires its use, or the ones that do not require its use become bland and meaningless, because by not requiring it, they are no threat to the characters. You can't put a threat gauge like that in the story, because it makes anything on the low end of the gauge unimportant drivel.

There is a very important difference in storytelling between

"Namor is back and he's busting up the city! Can our heroes stop him?!"

and

"Namor is back and he's busting up the city! But he's not dangerous enough for the robot because our heroes can beat him down without it. So, uh, let's go watch them beat him down, I guess."

[StoneGold]

Except it does, because it IS available as a last resort, meaning any conflict that doesn't involve bringing it out is therefore meaningless. How could one ever take any villain seriously that didn't require Reed to bust out his Godbot? How much danger can the characters be in that it's still not dangerous enough to whip out the Godbot for? How can the threat be taken seriously if it's "Dangerous, but not dangerous enough to justify my deus ex machina".


It's not exactly an all-purpose deus ex machina. Useful against Galactus and giant robots, but that would seem to be about it.

[Tobias Drake]

It's not exactly an all-purpose deus ex machina. Useful against Galactus and giant robots, but that would seem to be about it.

You'd be surprised how many things are vulnerable to being smashed into paste.

[StoneGold]

You'd be surprised how many things are vulnerable to being smashed into paste.

Try hitting a fly with a car sometime, see how far it gets you.

You know, a specific fly, not one lined up for your car to hit, or that just happens to be in the path on the highway.

[Froggy]

and doesn't reed's robot cost a whole **** load of money? or use up a whole lot of electricity?

it's hella cost effective from waht i can tell

that and it would be repeptitive to have it used on every threat now wouldn't it?

[DeadXMan]

Is the the Baxter builing running off a miniture black hole or something

I think Reed could come up with a power source ( MR 1,00,000 suns was floating right next to him)

sucking the jucie from the grid is just lazy writing when there is so much technobable.

[jackolover]

Except it does, because it IS available as a last resort, meaning any conflict that doesn't involve bringing it out is therefore meaningless. How could one ever take any villain seriously that didn't require Reed to bust out his Godbot? How much danger can the characters be in that it's still not dangerous enough to whip out the Godbot for? How can the threat be taken seriously if it's "Dangerous, but not dangerous enough to justify my deus ex machina".

To have such a powerful weapon available in emergency situations automatically makes any situation in which it is not used meaningless, because the villain is automatically not threatening enough to justify its use. Let's take, for example, Doom. Doom has a plot to destroy the Fantastic Four! Reed plans to fight back against him, however, he doesn't really feel Doom is threatening enough right now for the Godbot so he doesn't bring it out. Doom isn't quite dangerous enough at the moment for it, because the Fantastic Four can handle him without it.

Now. How the hell, given this situation, is Doom supposed to be considered a credible threat? Either suddenly EVERY situation requires its use, or the ones that do not require its use become bland and meaningless, because by not requiring it, they are no threat to the characters. You can't put a threat gauge like that in the story, because it makes anything on the low end of the gauge unimportant drivel.

There is a very important difference in storytelling between

"Namor is back and he's busting up the city! Can our heroes stop him?!"

and

"Namor is back and he's busting up the city! But he's not dangerous enough for the robot because our heroes can beat him down without it. So, uh, let's go watch them beat him down, I guess."

I would be concerned if C.A.P were just a one only device, but the Illuminati have the Infinity Gems, and they don't use those very often, but they are still there. That doesn't effect the whole of fiction.

I think there could be a role for C.A.P, but Godbot has a distinct disadvantage in that it takes etherial energy to run it, when billions of dollars are used to make it move. If Galactus takes longer than 1 hour to dispose of, the whole planet will be broke, and he might as well take it.

[DeadXMan]

that right he has an infinty gem
that could definitly power the anti G suit

[drwho]

Is Nu Earth going to stick around as a subplot through out millar's run, or is getting dropped after this arc. All though I hated millar and no longer get F.F. because of him i do think a cool story would be somehow doom takes control of nu earth and keeps the scientists as hostages and eventually the planet is destroyed.

[Tobias Drake]

and doesn't reed's robot cost a whole **** load of money? or use up a whole lot of electricity?

it's hella cost effective from waht i can tell

that and it would be repeptitive to have it used on every threat now wouldn't it?

That's kind of my point. It would be incredibly repetitive. The only enemies that pose any serious threat to the characters would be enemies that are beaten the exact same way. The robot either needs to be trashed or just plain forgotten; it's an emphatically bad idea with no redeeming qualities that hurts any future stories so long as it exists.

[StoneGold]

That's kind of my point. It would be incredibly repetitive. The only enemies that pose any serious threat to the characters would be enemies that are beaten the exact same way. The robot either needs to be trashed or just plain forgotten; it's an emphatically bad idea with no redeeming qualities that hurts any future stories so long as it exists.

You're right in that it probably needs to get blowed up, but as much because that's what giant robots are for. That said, you don't deal with muggers with an A-bomb. It can exist without destroying all future stories.

[Tobias Drake]

You're right in that it probably needs to get blowed up, but as much because that's what giant robots are for. That said, you don't deal with muggers with an A-bomb. It can exist without destroying all future stories.

And muggers are in no way a threat to the Fantastic Four. See that there?

If it doesn't require the robot, it's not threatening to the characters. If it's not threatening to the characters, it lacks all form of suspense. Without suspense, it's just "Hero punches stuff, then goes home." I would rather see the protagonist struggle against a stronger opponent, but ultimately pull off a miracle victory, than to see the protagonist gauge his opponent and go, "You know, I can take you without my robot," and then beat him. The former has dramatic flair. The latter does not.

[Lupek]

With this issue I have officially decided that I like the Millar/Hitch FF.

My hope is that these guys can now get me to love the book.

oh ....and I hope we aren't done with Nu-World. Anything that gets the FF out into space or some sci fi/space opera setting away from Earth (and all the other superheroes) gets my vote.

[ANewHope]

After reading issues 554 and 557, all I gotta to say is that I love all the character moments that this book is filled with.

As many people have already said, if you ignore why the CAP robot was malfunctioning in the first place, or why all 40 super heroes united to stop the CAP threat, you have a very entertaining arc.

The one downside to this story was why the CAP robot used lethal force to kill the 5 soldiers in Alaska, but didn't kill the 40 super heroes that were sent to stop him.

It just didnt make sense, why CAP thought it was appropriate to zap/kill the soliders, but left all 40 super heroes alive?? Most of these heroes were not invulnerable.

It also didnt make any sense why all the 40 heroes gathered, simply because it was an extinction level threat on the loose. I think the story would have been alot more enjoyable if only the Mighty Avengers and other pro-registration heroes had shown up. It just didnt make any sense that both the Mighty Avengers and New Avengers would be in the same location for any reason. [Maybe Millar/Hitch's fantastic four arc happens after the Secret Invasion] Its definitely unclear to me, there should have been some explanation..

[CaptainCanada]

Superhero genre requirements.

[Tobias Drake]

Superhero genre requirements.

Superhero genre requirements don't include "Characterwank moment where the lead protagonist manages to overcome a conflict that all other characters in the entire shared universe combined are powerless to have any effect on". Not to say it doesn't happen in the superhero genre. Simply that it shouldn't, because it comes off as the story being desperate for relevancy. If your characters can only be interesting by proving themselves superior to everyone else in the universe combined for one story, then you have a very serious problem with your characters that is in dire need of correction.

I know that if I were EIC, I would never allow a scene like this. Certainly, it gives the Fantastic Four a little boost , but at the cost of every other superhero present. This scene made everybody look bad except the Fantastic Four, and the writer didn't even bother to explain how or why; he just showed that everyone failed.

[CaptainCanada]

Actually, three of the Fantastic Four proceed to be easily defeated as well; the point of it is to set up a situation where Reed, the world's smartest man, can demonstrate his superior intelligence, which is an established part of the character (albeit in a way that mainly involves him anticipating part of Alyssa's thinking process).

The other heroes are just there to show that CAP is physically all but unbeatable (indeed, Reed only beats him because CAP is programmed not to hurt him and he has an even bigger robot lying around).

[Tobias Drake]

Actually, three of the Fantastic Four proceed to be easily defeated as well; the point of it is to set up a situation where Reed, the world's smartest man, can demonstrate his superior intelligence, which is an established part of the character (albeit in a way that mainly involves him anticipating part of Alyssa's thinking process).

The other heroes are just there to show that CAP is physically all but unbeatable (indeed, Reed only beats him because CAP is programmed not to hurt him and he has an even bigger robot lying around).

The problem with dealing on this scale, however, is the continuity problems it screams. It's on par with "Nobody in the entire MU could save Aunt May".

The problem lies with the very suggestion that no one else in the entire world can accomplish the task. It's a wide and sweeping suggestion that is ultimately not backed up by any cohesive facts, and is instead skipped over as quickly as the writer can in order to get to his conclusion and hope nobody asks questions.

[CyberCoyote]

Superhero genre requirements don't include "Characterwank moment where the lead protagonist manages to overcome a conflict that all other characters in the entire shared universe combined are powerless to have any effect on". Not to say it doesn't happen in the superhero genre. Simply that it shouldn't, because it comes off as the story being desperate for relevancy. If your characters can only be interesting by proving themselves superior to everyone else in the universe combined for one story, then you have a very serious problem with your characters that is in dire need of correction.

I know that if I were EIC, I would never allow a scene like this. Certainly, it gives the Fantastic Four a little boost , but at the cost of every other superhero present. This scene made everybody look bad except the Fantastic Four, and the writer didn't even bother to explain how or why; he just showed that everyone failed.

It never even boosts the FF. The possibility is there that Reed's greatest invention that we never knew about until then save for his telling 1st graders about it (oh, and all those people that work for him all of a sudden that are in the BB then gone then there then gone) would have been useless against the incredible 'programmed to be unbeatable' code of Alyssa (other programmers aren't as smart as her and put in the code :almost unbeatable:, it's their stupidity that makes them do that. She's an uber smarty pants and programmed it :unbeatable: which makes it so. Better than a Kree Sentry.. and notice it ran on self generating power or something because Reed's Transformer used billions of dollars but CAPs power supply came from the same limitless and cost effective place as the material that was used to build an entire planet. I think it's Scotland). Anyway, it didn't fight back because Reed was untouchable to it (:unbeatable unless Reed Richards sneezes at you: code that is)

It works if you really want it to work. I guess that can be said for all comic stuff. But it does certainly change the possibilities in the entire MU. Everything Millar does has to be BIGGER than what came before, eventually it gets too dang big.

[CaptainCanada]

The problem with dealing on this scale, however, is the continuity problems it screams. It's on par with "Nobody in the entire MU could save Aunt May".

The problem lies with the very suggestion that no one else in the entire world can accomplish the task. It's a wide and sweeping suggestion that is ultimately not backed up by any cohesive facts, and is instead skipped over as quickly as the writer can in order to get to his conclusion and hope nobody asks questions.
Reed is supposed to be the world's greatest scientist and inventor, so him having the solution when no one else does is perfectly within his history.

[Tobias Drake]

Reed is supposed to be the world's greatest scientist and inventor, so him having the solution when no one else does is perfectly within his history.

Him having that exact solution, yes. But to suggest that there is no other possible solution, that no other hero could find anything, that Doctor Strange cannot banish it to another dimension, that Wolverine's claws cannot pierce it, that Sentry cannot hurl it into the sun, that Tony Stark cannot use his Extremis powers to mess with its computer systems, etc. etc., is patently ludicrous.

The problem isn't with the suggestion that Reed is smarter than everyone else. The problem is the suggestion that no one else could find any possible solution to the problem, despite the vast diversity in the abilities of all the superheroes present at the battle.

[XPac]

I thought the robot thing being able to beat every hero in NY was a bit Loeb-ish, for lack of a better word.

If this were some sort of event, and it was developed more like World War Hulk I would be okay with it. But here it does sort of seem like it's just like the heroes are quickly thrown in there for a quicky job.

Other than anything big robot related, this is pretty good stuff though.

[Monty_Cristo]

i loved the art but found the story to be somewhat unsatisfactory. when did Alyssa Moy become a sociopath? she seemed anything but immoral when she first appeared.

[Magneto Rocks]

Him having that exact solution, yes. But to suggest that there is no other possible solution, that no other hero could find anything, that Doctor Strange cannot banish it to another dimension, that Wolverine's claws cannot pierce it, that Sentry cannot hurl it into the sun, that Tony Stark cannot use his Extremis powers to mess with its computer systems, etc. etc., is patently ludicrous.

But this is not all done. It all happens very, very quickly. It's not like they had time to sit down and think of in-depth solutions, and it's not like CAP would have let them- he was teleporting from place to place, he had absolutely no interest in them, they were just in his way.

The problem isn't with the suggestion that Reed is smarter than everyone else. The problem is the suggestion that no one else could find any possible solution to the problem, despite the vast diversity in the abilities of all the superheroes present at the battle.

I would suggest Reed has a FAR better record for thinking with perfect rationality and calmness in times of crisis than most heroes short of Cap do. It's one of his staples in fact- others try to find immediate solutions, he thinks of the long-term one. Plus, Doctor Strange was in his weakened state as he was still part of the Avengers at the time, and Iron Man was doubtless busy being screamed at by every defence agency on Earth as CAP dissembled thier nuclear arsenals.

I thought the robot thing being able to beat every hero in NY was a bit Loeb-ish, for lack of a better word.

I have no HUGE problem with it because they're caught totally unprepared and it all happens swiftly. Ultimately, I think it would be Loeb-ish if they all attacked CAP one by one using all their tricks and might after hours of prep time and CAP still demolished them while laughing maniacally at them and despite having been taken totally unawares.

[CaptainCanada]

i loved the art but found the story to be somewhat unsatisfactory. when did Alyssa Moy become a sociopath? she seemed anything but immoral when she first appeared.
How was she immoral here (beyond wanting to get with Reed) in a way that makes her a sociopath?