I do not understand the appeal of Barry Allen

[Kevinroc]

I am one of those younger fans who started reading well after Crisis On Infinite Earths and I have never understood the appeal of Barry Allen. Barry always felt... dull... I grew up on speedsters known for having "attitude" such as Sega's Sonic The Hedgehog, Marvel's Quicksilver and even DC's Wally West and Bart Allen. Never really understood the appeal of Joe Friday as a speedster...

I do understand Barry's significance in comic book history and bringing super heroes back to prominence but as far as the appeal of the actual character, I honestly don't get it. I am trying to understand it but I honestly don't get why so many have been clamoring for his return for over 20 years.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I LOVE Barry.

He's just..... a good guy. He's a Galahad. Yes, you need your edgy Lancelots, but there's also a place for a pure and noble heart, and that's what Barry is to me.

But especially, I love his romance with Iris Allen.

At a time when Lois and Lana were catfighting on the streets of Metropolis to become 'Mrs. Superman', this smart, plucky, and daring newswoman was in love, not with the Flash, but Barry. She knew both, but it was Barry who.... despite all his faults... she loved. Not the.... ahem... 'flashy' hero, but the regular guy. There's a sweetness and a depth there.

[Kevinroc]

Sonic, Wally and Bart are "good guys" and not in that "bad boy" way. And before House of M, Quicksilver could also be described as a "good guy" (his status as hero or villain is definitely up in the air given events in the recent X-Factor one-shot).

[JamesRitcheyIII]

I don't understand the appeal of Geezer Flash, Kid Flash pretending to be Flash, 'Bart', or Embryo Flash (Impulse)--Barry Allen is just REAL Flash.

So...THERE! :tongue:

[Red Jack]

Nostalgia.

The people in charge of the industry right now are attempting to recreate their adolescence by bringing back characters and teams they liked then.

Barry died a great death but as a character, like Hal Jordan, he wasn't one. he was just one more squared jawed blond guy in tights with super powers.

If somebody brought him back it was a mistake and invalidates the coolness of his heroic death.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Nostalgia.

The people in charge of the industry right now are attempting to recreate their adolescence by bringing back characters and teams they liked then.

Barry died a great death but as a character, like Hal Jordan, he wasn't one. he was just one more squared jawed blond guy in tights with super powers.

If somebody brought him back it was a mistake and invalidates the coolness of his heroic death.

I disagree..... reading the Silver Age Flash as I've been doing, he is a character there that I find distinctive.

Sure, he's not dark and brooding. He's an Everyday Joe. But you know, that's only bad if that's not what you want to read about.

And yes, the Silver Age was much more about tossing out concepts and running with them than 'character development', but in just about every Flash story of the era, I see a character moment or something that he does that I think 'Only Barry would do/say that.'

[Kevinroc]

I don't understand the appeal of Geezer Flash, Kid Flash pretending to be Flash, 'Bart', or Embryo Flash (Impulse)--Barry Allen is just REAL Flash.

So...THERE! :tongue:

Is it wrong that I think Sonic displayed more personality in his ONE SCENE in Brawl's adventure mode than Barry did in his entire publication history? :tongue:

[Dazzler]

I think Barry's the bees knees.

And it has nothing to do with nostalgia since he was long dead before I even started reading comics.

I like that he doesn't have an attitude like Quicksilver or Northstar (although i love those characters).

I would think he's be even more generic if, based solely on his power set, he had to have a pre-programmed attitude requirement.

And I won't even get started on Hal. That guy's my fictional lover.

--Dazz

[Kevinroc]

I think Barry's the bees knees.

And it has nothing to do with nostalgia since he was long dead before I even started reading comics.

I like that he doesn't have an attitude like Quicksilver or Northstar (although i love those characters).

I would think he's be even more generic if, based solely on his power set, he had to have a pre-programmed attitude requirement.

And I won't even get started on Hal. That guy's my fictional lover.

--Dazz

So you basically think that "these characters don't need to have stinkin' personalities!" :tongue:

[Pink Bat Maxine]

So you basically think that "these characters don't need to have stinkin' personalities!" :tongue:

Or he can see the personalities that other people dismiss.

[Dazzler]

So you basically think that "these characters don't need to have stinkin' personalities!" :tongue:
:wink: I just think personality extends beyond having snarky remarks handy that "fit" with a speedster powerset.

I think both Hal AND Barry have personalities, and very good ones. It may be that I respect and appreciate a certain kind of personality over ones that are more popular "nowadays," but I think to say they have NO personality is way off the mark.

Personality.

Just cuz there was already too much usage in this post.

--Dazz

[Kevinroc]

:wink: I just think personality extends beyond having snarky remarks handy that "fit" with a speedster powerset.

I think both Hal AND Barry have personalities, and very good ones. It may be that I respect and appreciate a certain kind of personality over ones that are more popular "nowadays," but I think to say they have NO personality is way off the mark.

Personality.

Just cuz there was already too much usage in this post.

--Dazz

I'm not gonna give a snarky response to your rather intelligent post on the subject.

I'm not making this about Hal since I feel that is a completely different discussion (as is the treatment DC gave the character).

The problem, as I see it, as that I don't understand why so many are so fascinated by a character who essentially does not have much of a personality. I've read a few things with Barry, ranging from old comics to comics written within the last decade or so. And I really don't see the appeal of the character beyond the fact that he died in Crisis on Infinite Earths. I actually think he really does work better in an "Uncle Ben" kind of way than as a leading man.

Anytime I ask why he should be brought back, I usually get answered with "because it's his time" and nothing really substantial. I've really only seen one person sorta get it when they said a Barry book should be a kind of CSI/ Gotham Central book with the Flash...

The problem I have with that is that I wouldn't find it the least bit interesting.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

The problem, as I see it, as that I don't understand why so many are so fascinated by a character who essentially does not have much of a personality.

Perhaps then, you can simply understand and respect that many people DO see the personality there, and enjoy it, even if you personally don't?

[Metronome35]

Is it wrong that I think Sonic displayed more personality in his ONE SCENE in Brawl's adventure mode than Barry did in his entire publication history? :tongue:

Wait, have you read his entire publication history?

[Charles RB]

I'm against Barry coming back, but I will admit Mark Waid did an interesting Barry in JLA: Year One.

And if he's straighter - or "dull" depending on your view - that's no bad thing, depending on the story. Cyclops in New X-Men and Alan Moore's Captain Britain were the straight guys and it worked quite well, providing a counterpoint to everyone else & the story.

[Ringslinger76]

Why does someone always have to make it an either/or? I love the Flashes as much as I do the GL's and I wouldn't wish wrong on any of them. You youngsters have to understand that not every dead character is better left to the dust bin.

Things come and go in cycles, when your old like me you'll see it.
Read the characters you like, skip the ones you don't. Every character is only as good as the writer with his/her name on the cover. If you don't believe that why are you spending time on Gail's forum? Because she happens to write Wonder Woman? Wonder Woman/Diana continues to exist becuase DC could market her as a licensed property... not because of spectacular sales on the comics rack over her long history. Ray Palmer Atom would have sold as well as the new Atom if Gail had written him... DC/Marvel retreads characters to get young gimmick susceptable readers to pick up a book.. not because any character is intrinsically bad and needs to be replaced.

Batman today is still Bruce Wayne but he doesn't resemble Batman even ten years ago, let alone fifty. The writers change, the character adapts. Will Barry be exactly as he was forty years ago? No. Writers have changed. Barry will be more modern, but hopefully retain the core of what made him resonate in the first place. Hal is different.. but he's still Hal. I wish Kyle still resembled early Kyle.

Comics publishers will do things that make you happy, they will do things that make you mad.. let them know which is which by how you spend your money. I didn't like Winnick on GL... I quit buying it. I just wished I had jumped off Countdown before it was over. Wally is the original Kid Flash... he's an icon.. don't worry.. he'll be fine in the long run.

[Corrina]

I LOVE Barry.

He's just..... a good guy. He's a Galahad. Yes, you need your edgy Lancelots, but there's also a place for a pure and noble heart, and that's what Barry is to me.

But especially, I love his romance with Iris Allen.



Yes. My favorite Barry Allen story is one of the first I read. He and Iris are running errands all day and he keeps showing up late. It's was basically what he did--he was the Fastest Man Alive but he always kept showing up late for appointments. Especially, he was always late for Iris. And each successive time Iris is getting more and more angry.

But....then! Iris isn't pissed for the obvious reasons! She had moved Barry's watch ahead 20 minutes so he wouldn't be late. And he still was. So does she think he found her out? Does she go whiny bitch on him?

Nope.

She realizes that Barry isn't Barry, and that he's been replaced, and she confronts the fake Barry. He changes into the Reverse Flash (first story I read with the Reverse Flash!) and starts spinning a yardstick, slicing off pieces of a banana to show what he'll do to her since she found him out.

Of course, Barry arrives to save the day.

Also, I should point out that Wally has essentially the same Rogues Gallary as Barry did. Yes, some of them have been updates. But the Reverse Flash, Captain Cold, Weather Wizard, Trickster...they were all Silver Age villains. When the switch was made to Wally, the writers had that rich history to draw on and play with.

That said, I don't have that much sentimental attachment to Barry---I like Wally just fine and Bart, too.

[Dazzler]

I'm not gonna give a snarky response to your rather intelligent post on the subject.

I'm not making this about Hal since I feel that is a completely different discussion (as is the treatment DC gave the character).

The problem, as I see it, as that I don't understand why so many are so fascinated by a character who essentially does not have much of a personality. I've read a few things with Barry, ranging from old comics to comics written within the last decade or so. And I really don't see the appeal of the character beyond the fact that he died in Crisis on Infinite Earths. I actually think he really does work better in an "Uncle Ben" kind of way than as a leading man.

Anytime I ask why he should be brought back, I usually get answered with "because it's his time" and nothing really substantial. I've really only seen one person sorta get it when they said a Barry book should be a kind of CSI/ Gotham Central book with the Flash...

The problem I have with that is that I wouldn't find it the least bit interesting.
I think you may have misunderstood me...I didn't think you were snarky at all!

I'm just not in agreement that since speedsters have typically been shown to be hotheaded that it's an interesting character type.

I like that Barry is level headed and kinda low-key. To me, it's an interesting part of his development (or some would lack of it) that he's kinda mellow, despite being able to rip it up.

Plus, I'm just not a fan of characters who always have what I would call "bad attitudes." Certain exceptions do apply, but on the whole, I'm drawn to those level headed character types. it must be the fantasy projection thing...I can't ever hope to be level headed, so I like the characters who ARE. Like some people would be drawn to Wolverine since he can do and say the things they can't.

I dunno!

--Dazz

[PatrickG]

I'm against Barry coming back, but I will admit Mark Waid did an interesting Barry in JLA: Year One.

And if he's straighter - or "dull" depending on your view - that's no bad thing, depending on the story. Cyclops in New X-Men and Alan Moore's Captain Britain were the straight guys and it worked quite well, providing a counterpoint to everyone else & the story.

There's this.

There's also the fact that his origin doesn't have mountains of backstory, something I appreciate as someone who started reading after COIE.

He's not anyone's sidekick. He's not anyone's legacy, really. He's just a good guy who got powers and became a hero. He wasn't born into it or drafted into it; he CHOSE it. I kinda think that's how all the big guns should be.

Also, we've never really seen a lot of depth applied to his character in part because of the era he existed in. Superman and Hal and Diana have all been transformed since Barry's death. I'd be anxious to see Barry undergo the same transformation.

The idea of a dry-witted guy, a PLAIN guy... Does he hesitate to say what's on his mind? Most of the speedsters are impulsive but I think it might be more interesting to have one who can see the world moving around him slowly, who can speak faster than anyone but for whom the RIGHT words perhaps still come slowly.

The guy is a forensic scientist who's seen his share of corpses. Does he have a morbid sense of humor? Would he be considered a hip geek now that nerds are in? (ie. "so square he's cool") Would he be a computer genius? What music would he be into? How would he dress?

The appeal for me is that he's a blank slate in many regards. I like how Superman, Batman, WW, GL are archetypes and peers, close in age, close in experience. I'd like for Aquaman and Flash to be the same.

When was the last time we saw the big six or seven together as peers, as people who debuted together?

It's only been a few brief moments in DC's publishing history:

- A few cameos in JSA and one arc in the 70s JSA

- A few years in the Silver Age... and they weren't ALL together that much in the Bronze Age, Super Friends aside.

Post-Crisis, we had a Batman and Superman and GL who'd been around for years and a new Flash and a WW slightly newer than Flash.

I want to see what happens when all the pieces fall into alignment and the JLA stands together as the old guard, all alike in age and experience. The true founders reunited.

[Kevinroc]

I'm against Barry coming back, but I will admit Mark Waid did an interesting Barry in JLA: Year One.

And if he's straighter - or "dull" depending on your view - that's no bad thing, depending on the story. Cyclops in New X-Men and Alan Moore's Captain Britain were the straight guys and it worked quite well, providing a counterpoint to everyone else & the story.

The problem with comparing Barry to Cyclops is that Cyclops really only has that team setting and doesn't have to carry a solo book. He can bounce off characters like Emma or Wolverine or Nightcrawler or Shadowcat or whoever.

And Alan Moore is a much stronger writer than anyone working on the DCU today.

[Kevinroc]

I think you may have misunderstood me...I didn't think you were snarky at all!

I'm just not in agreement that since speedsters have typically been shown to be hotheaded that it's an interesting character type.

I like that Barry is level headed and kinda low-key. To me, it's an interesting part of his development (or some would lack of it) that he's kinda mellow, despite being able to rip it up.

Plus, I'm just not a fan of characters who always have what I would call "bad attitudes." Certain exceptions do apply, but on the whole, I'm drawn to those level headed character types. it must be the fantasy projection thing...I can't ever hope to be level headed, so I like the characters who ARE. Like some people would be drawn to Wolverine since he can do and say the things they can't.

I dunno!

--Dazz

Of the speedsters I listed, really only Quicksilver could be compared to Wolverine (and it's not because they are both mutants).

Pietro, Sonic, Wally and Bart are all remarkably different in actual personality. Off that list, Sonic has the least actual personality because of his status as a video game character. And yet I find that he still has more personality than Barry.

Contrary to some, I really am trying to understand but I kept being met by the same answers. The things about him that I find dull, others seem to love. That is what I am trying to understand. Why is this leading character so compelling when he has one of the coolest powers imaginable and yet his personality can be described as a blank slate? Is it because he is such a blank slate? Then why does it matter if Barry is back or not? Wouldn't a new character suffice? What is it about Barry specifically that makes him so necessary to the current comics continuum?

[Corrina]

I like what Waid did with Barry in JLA: Year One.

He basically showed him as a very solid guy--which is what attracted Canary, he's stable, he's not crazy, even though he has a job that should drive him crazy. How does he handle that stress? Iris, yes, but what else? A need to keep everything else as normal as possible? That could make for some interesting stories. In many ways, Barry is very much a conservative, in that he believes in the law and justice, really believes in it, and yet he's running around as a superhero. But we've never really seen a superhero cop, have we? Clark Kent is sorta that way, he believes in the system, but with Barry, that would be magnified.

You could do all kinds of things now with his forensic science background that weren't done way back when.

P.S. Barry isn't a blank slate. Joe Friday might be boring, but he had a really specific personality. He was exacting, he was careful, and he tended to hide his compassion behind the rule of law. I find the idea of a speedster (impulsive! Fast!) paired with the personality of exacting and careful very interesting. Easy to make a speedster impulsive.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Why is this leading character so compelling when he has one of the coolest powers imaginable and yet his personality can be described as a blank slate? Is it because he is such a blank slate?

I think the point of disagreement is whether he's a blank slate and has no personality or not. I disagree with the premise that he has none.

[CutterMike]

(...)
The problem, as I see it, as that I don't understand why so many are so fascinated by a character who essentially does not have much of a personality.
(...)

The problem I have with that is that I wouldn't find it the least bit interesting.

No one says that you have to find a book featuring any particular character interesting, but you keep saying that "no personality" thing...

He HAS a personality, just a modest, quiet, vaguely-absent-minded one. He isn't angst-y about why he does what he does, he just does it because he can help people by doing it. He loves his girlfriend/wife.

If "personality" requires that a character snarl at everyone, make snarky comments during a fight, have a dark and tragic past that forces him to go around beating people up, or obsess about how god-like powers have ruined his life, then, yes; I suppose he has no personality.

So how, precisely, do you define personality? What does Barry not have or do that means he has "no personality"?

...Because, frankly, he always struck me as a basic, decent sort of guy.

[Kevinroc]

No one says that you have to find a book featuring any particular character interesting, but you keep saying that "no personality" thing...

He HAS a personality, just a modest, quiet, vaguely-absent-minded one. He isn't angst-y about why he does what he does, he just does it because he can help people by doing it. He loves his girlfriend/wife.

If "personality" requires that a character snarl at everyone, make snarky comments during a fight, have a dark and tragic past that forces him to go around beating people up, or obsess about how god-like powers have ruined his life, then, yes; I suppose he has no personality.

So how, precisely, do you define personality? What does Barry not have or do that means he has "no personality"?

...Because, frankly, he always struck me as a basic, decent sort of guy.

Of course every character has a different personality. If you actually saw the speedsters I listed who have personality, how many of them fit in that description?

That being said, I do not think of Barry as a compelling character. What specifically is it that makes him compelling? That he is quiet and stable?

I hate to say "is that it" but that really seems to be it. Characters don't need to be the "tough guy" like Guts (Berserk) to be interesting to me. On the flip side, characters have to be a little more compelling than a character's whose biggest fans say they should return "because it is their time" and don't even mention any kind of role they fill in the universe that isn't filled by another.

I mean, yeah, I get that Barry's "a good guy" but you're gonna need a little more than that since Superman seems to fill that role rather nicely, don't ya think? Captain Marvel does as well (or at least he and his family did before recent changes).

[Charles RB]

Also, I should point out that Wally has essentially the same Rogues Gallary as Barry did. Yes, some of them have been updates. But the Reverse Flash, Captain Cold, Weather Wizard, Trickster...they were all Silver Age villains. When the switch was made to Wally, the writers had that rich history to draw on and play with.

This is a reason why I like well-used continuity, legacy and (where possible) real-time progressions. A rich history can give you more scope for stories, if used well.

[Eliseu Gouveia]

God, I hope he stays dead.

The only thing remotely interesting Barry ever had was his exit.
Wally more than succeeded in filling his Oh!-so-dull shoes and I suspect that even Jay Garrick did a more interesting Flash when he was the one under the red hood.

Nothing against good guys, God knows we could use more but ressurrecting him just for the sake of reliving some adolescent trip?
Please no.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Jay Garrick did a more interesting Flash when he was the one under the red hood.

(of course, he never wore a red hood. ^.~)

[Eliseu Gouveia]

(of course, he never wore a red hood. ^.~)

Hush, you. :cool: :rolleyes: :wink:

[Kid Kamikaze10]

Kevinroc, I think you should read the Flash issues before COIE. Even though him dying in COIE invalidated half of this stuff, Barry was at a major crossroads in his life.

He was on trial for the murder of Reverse Flash, who he did in fact kill (making him unique among DCs Bronze Age hero line-up). He killed Zoom to prevent him from murdering his new bride-to-be the same way he had (apparently) murdered Iris. Not only was Barry dealing with this, but at the trial, Wally testified against him as an expert in super-speed, saying that yes, it was possible to stop Zoom without killing him. To top it off, the woman Barry was going to marry went drooling insane from the experience. There was a lot of story potential washed away by Barry's death in CoIE.

[Kevinroc]

Kevinroc, I think you should read the Flash issues before COIE. Even though him dying in COIE invalidated half of this stuff, Barry was at a major crossroads in his life.

He was on trial for the murder of Reverse Flash, who he did in fact kill (making him unique among DCs Bronze Age hero line-up). He killed Zoom to prevent him from murdering his new bride-to-be the same way he had (apparently) murdered Iris. Not only was Barry dealing with this, but at the trial, Wally testified against him as an expert in super-speed, saying that yes, it was possible to stop Zoom without killing him. To top it off, the woman Barry was going to marry went drooling insane from the experience. There was a lot of story potential washed away by Barry's death in CoIE.

I read The Life Story of Barry Allen and Waid did a nice job of summarizing Barry's continuity. Although the book really portrayed it as a love story between Barry and Iris... That might be a little weird if Barry was brought back for keeps now since Iris is what... in her 60s or 70s now?

[Red Jack]

The problem with comparing Barry to Cyclops is that Cyclops really only has that team setting and doesn't have to carry a solo book. He can bounce off characters like Emma or Wolverine or Nightcrawler or Shadowcat or whoever.

And Alan Moore is a much stronger writer than anyone working on the DCU today.

Another comparison flaw is that Cyke is not a blank slate or a stiff. Before the era of Logan-mania, Scott Summers carried around a tragic traumatic past leaving him an orphan during his formative years. He was, initially, a shy, awkward emotionally brittle kid who was only really at home in the danger room and on missions.

After Len Wein revived th title Scott was portrayed as a strong, "patriotic" Captain Mutant, who thought of the "team" as his family and Professor X as his "father." Wein took pains to show that, though he was more capable, he was STILL emotionally stunted, only truly comfortable amongst the original core group of X men and, among them, only REALLY at ease with Hank and Jean.

Cyclops, before Logan, was one of the more interesting and complex characters ever to be invented at Marvel and, with the culmination of his and Jean's love story (with her suicide to save the universe) literally, Epic.

(Don't get me started on how stupid it was to bring Jean back after that)

THis is largely due to the fact that, on the whole, Marvel characters were inherently more complex than DC characters simply by virtue of the time period in which they were created and that Stan wanted something to work in opposition to the way superheroes had been done before that time.

I make jokes about Hal and Barry but it's not because I didn't enjoy their early adventures. I did. But, unlike MArvel, the legacy concept is built in to DC comics. Barry is a Silver Ager. Square jawed. Decent. Good, with a capitol G. Just like Adam Strange and Hal Jordan and Ray Palmer and pretty much all of the others.

They worked then but they will not work now. They are too flat, too 2D, too 4 color. Case in point, the revamped Hal Jordan is not the same guy he used to be. He's a version of that guy but he isn't that guy. He's got an edge he NEVER had in his previous incarnation which means, character-wise, he's not that Hal. Kudos to Geoff Johns for injecting a personality into the guy.

Bringing back a guy called Barry Allen might be cool for those who miss him but, for him to work in a modern marketplace, he will not be that same guy. That guy won't sell. And, if he's not that same guy, why bother giving him that guy's name?

I grew up with Wally, really. He was "my" Flash. I was sad to see him go but I was interested in seeing Bart take his turn. And it was his turn. Wally had like 20 years. It was sad to lose him but perfectly fair. Bart and, more importantly, Bart fans, got screwed in favor of nostalgia.

Bringing Barry back is a mistake.

Always move forward.

[Dazzler]

Always move forward.

Then I say bring back Azrael, Artemis, and Blue and Red Superman.

--Dazz

[Red Jack]

Then I say bring back Azrael, Artemis, and Blue and Red Superman.

--Dazz

I'd LOVE to see an Artemis title and an Azrael title.

Superman red and blue, not so much.

[Kevinroc]

Then I say bring back Azrael, Artemis, and Blue and Red Superman.

--Dazz

Superman Red & Blue were taken from an old silver age comic. So there's nothing "new" about them... They weren't exactly "forward" when the concept was done a number of years ago.

[Kevinroc]

Another comparison flaw is that Cyke is not a blank slate or a stiff. Before the era of Logan-mania, Scott Summers carried around a tragic traumatic past leaving him an orphan during his formative years. He was, initially, a shy, awkward emotionally brittle kid who was only really at home in the danger room and on missions.

After Len Wein revived th title Scott was portrayed as a strong, "patriotic" Captain Mutant, who thought of the "team" as his family and Professor X as his "father." Wein took pains to show that, though he was more capable, he was STILL emotionally stunted, only truly comfortable amongst the original core group of X men and, among them, only REALLY at ease with Hank and Jean.

Cyclops, before Logan, was one of the more interesting and complex characters ever to be invented at Marvel and, with the culmination of his and Jean's love story (with her suicide to save the universe) literally, Epic.

(Don't get me started on how stupid it was to bring Jean back after that)

THis is largely due to the fact that, on the whole, Marvel characters were inherently more complex than DC characters simply by virtue of the time period in which they were created and that Stan wanted something to work in opposition to the way superheroes had been done before that time.

I make jokes about Hal and Barry but it's not because I didn't enjoy their early adventures. I did. But, unlike MArvel, the legacy concept is built in to DC comics. Barry is a Silver Ager. Square jawed. Decent. Good, with a capitol G. Just like Adam Strange and Hal Jordan and Ray Palmer and pretty much all of the others.

They worked then but they will not work now. They are too flat, too 2D, too 4 color. Case in point, the revamped Hal Jordan is not the same guy he used to be. He's a version of that guy but he isn't that guy. He's got an edge he NEVER had in his previous incarnation which means, character-wise, he's not that Hal. Kudos to Geoff Johns for injecting a personality into the guy.

Bringing back a guy called Barry Allen might be cool for those who miss him but, for him to work in a modern marketplace, he will not be that same guy. That guy won't sell. And, if he's not that same guy, why bother giving him that guy's name?

I grew up with Wally, really. He was "my" Flash. I was sad to see him go but I was interested in seeing Bart take his turn. And it was his turn. Wally had like 20 years. It was sad to lose him but perfectly fair. Bart and, more importantly, Bart fans, got screwed in favor of nostalgia.

Bringing Barry back is a mistake.

Always move forward.

I do think this is one of the more intelligent posts on this subject that I have seen in some time. I've seen Barry fans cite Hal Jordan again and again, seemingly not even understand that the treatment DC gave Hal was much different from Barry's (for one thing, Barry didn't become a deranged supervillain who wanted to remake the universe in his own image).

It really isn't the same thing.

As far as Bart fans getting screwed over, that's been pretty much the standard DC policy for a long time now. Bart, especially in his Impulse days, was all personality. He was fun.

Teen Titans as it exists now is pretty much everything wrong with DC.

And seeing Barry Allen (or someone running around with that name but with a new personality) is not going to change what is wrong with the DCU. It's just gonna make the problems even more obvious.

[Stressfactor]

I think there IS a lot of potential in bringing Barry back. Here's a list...

1) Nobody said because Barry is coming back that he has to still be a speedster. The man apparently somehow became one with the multiverse -- what if he comes back with some kind of insanse powers no one has ever seen before?

2) Barry was/is an 'everyday joe' type of character and so what happens if someone who is essentially your next door neighbor sees the kind of stuff Barry has seen? He knows about everything -- he's seen the multiverse die and seen it reborn. He has died and come back and seen god-only-knows what. How does that change a man? Can he BE an 'everyday Joe' type of guy anymore? If he does try can he succeed? (THis is where I think the "Green Lantern" series has fallen down a bit because I would have thought that Hal would have some PTSD or something from his time as the Spectre)

3) As was mentioned... Iris. She's older now, she's moved on with her life. If Barry comes back in his mid-30's or so how does he handle this? Does he still love her? Does he still want to be with her desite their age difference? What if SHE doesn't want him? Does he try to win her back?

4) The kids. Barry and Iris had twins while living in the future and Barry did not even live long enough to see them grow up -- now they are dead and so is the grandson he never met. How does Barry deal with this? How does he face the fact that he never got to be there for his kids, he never got to see them grow up, he never got to really be a dad and now he never can.

5) The life. Barry's been dead, the world has moved on. How does he slot himself back in? How does he go about picking up the pieces of his old life... or does he? Does he chuck his 'old life' and build something new for himself? (this is where the "Green Lantern" series excelled since it showed Hal making decisions about what kind of life he wanted to lead and where he wanted to lead it)

So, actually, if someone wants to dig into some drama stuff there is plenty to mine with Barry's return. If anything, with Barry having such a strong "family" with Iris and Wally and the rest of the supporting cast it gives a writer more to work with for a "returning" hero than those lone-wolf types who can just pop back in without any problems.

[Kevinroc]

I think there IS a lot of potential in bringing Barry back. Here's a list...

1) Nobody said because Barry is coming back that he has to still be a speedster. The man apparently somehow became one with the multiverse -- what if he comes back with some kind of insanse powers no one has ever seen before?

That kinda defeats the purpose if Barry comes back as something different from "The Flash." That's like making Hal into The Spectre...


]2) Barry was/is an 'everyday joe' type of character and so what happens if someone who is essentially your next door neighbor sees the kind of stuff Barry has seen? He knows about everything -- he's seen the multiverse die and seen it reborn. He has died and come back and seen god-only-knows what. How does that change a man? Can he BE an 'everyday Joe' type of guy anymore? If he does try can he succeed? (THis is where I think the "Green Lantern" series has fallen down a bit because I would have thought that Hal would have some PTSD or something from his time as the Spectre)

For a long running series, that really won't work. There's a reason Hal forgot most of that Spectre stuff (aside from it wasn't very good).


3) As was mentioned... Iris. She's older now, she's moved on with her life. If Barry comes back in his mid-30's or so how does he handle this? Does he still love her? Does he still want to be with her desite their age difference? What if SHE doesn't want him? Does he try to win her back?

That... is probably the most fascinating aspect in my book. But I've always been a sucker for stories of love between two that buck a lot of the normal trends.


4) The kids. Barry and Iris had twins while living in the future and Barry did not even live long enough to see them grow up -- now they are dead and so is the grandson he never met. How does Barry deal with this? How does he face the fact that he never got to be there for his kids, he never got to see them grow up, he never got to really be a dad and now he never can.

I don't think it's fun to focus on Barry's kids being dead (as well as his grandson being dead).


5) The life. Barry's been dead, the world has moved on. How does he slot himself back in? How does he go about picking up the pieces of his old life... or does he? Does he chuck his 'old life' and build something new for himself? (this is where the "Green Lantern" series excelled since it showed Hal making decisions about what kind of life he wanted to lead and where he wanted to lead it)

That's kinda the problem, isn't it? It would be a retread of recent Green Lantern stories. Not that DC seems to mind retreading the same stories over and over again in a short period of time. We've had three stores in a row about the Teen Titans fighting an evil Titans group...


So, actually, if someone wants to dig into some drama stuff there is plenty to mine with Barry's return. If anything, with Barry having such a strong "family" with Iris and Wally and the rest of the supporting cast it gives a writer more to work with for a "returning" hero than those lone-wolf types who can just pop back in without any problems.

Knowing DC, they'll kill Wally and his entire family to make way for Barry's return...

[Pink Bat Maxine]

My guess is that at the end of Final Crisis, Barry will return from whence he came.

But even if he doesn't, there's precident for multiple Flashes.

[JamesRitcheyIII]

Is it wrong that I think Sonic displayed more personality in his ONE SCENE in Brawl's adventure mode than Barry did in his entire publication history? :tongue:

Characterization doesn't have legs of it's own--if Sonic was written better, it's because a writer wrote him better. I find cardboard cutouts to be the easiest to rework, to humanize, add quirks and even mental illnesses to.
Is there really any doubt in your mind, that if a truly great writer who knows the character's deficiencies got a hold of him, that he wouldn't burn the house down?

I doubt seriously if anyone holds much reverence for John Broome's original characterization of Barry Allen, or his penchant for plot, plot, plot, but shit--The Rogue's Gallery alone is an amazing treasure that doesn't belong to Wally or anyone later. It's not nostalgia for me--it's an amazing legacy, with a huge amount of potential for remodeling.

[RachelEvil]

Then I say bring back Azrael, Artemis, and Blue and Red Superman.

--Dazz

That'd be moving backwards, too. Just backwards a shorter distance.

[LewMoxinsghost]

God, I hope he stays dead.

The only thing remotely interesting Barry ever had was his exit.
Wally more than succeeded in filling his Oh!-so-dull shoes and I suspect that even Jay Garrick did a more interesting Flash when he was the one under the red hood.

Nothing against good guys, God knows we could use more but ressurrecting him just for the sake of reliving some adolescent trip?
Please no.

I sort of agree with you Zeu, but in a less extreme sort of way. I agree that Barry was bland and that his death was very poignant. I always equivocate all the flashes with god Hermes as messenger to the dead. When he died the way that he did, two things were opened up for me when I read it as a kid. The first was, wow, I guess I don't really get to know anything more about the Flash. The second thing was Wally West was introduced to me as a character instead of a charicature for the first time. I was sort of forced into taking him seriously as a hero. It was really interesting to read what he did following his mentor's death. All of this from Crisis on Infinite Earths number 8. What, was that like 75 cents?

[Ringslinger76]

Comic fans are more like sports fan than I think we want to admit. Some people hate certain characters for no real reason (even though we'll create reasons) and hold to them as if that character spit on our grandmas. Just like I'll hate the Dallas Cowboys even when they aren't playing a team I like. And yep, I have plenty of silly self justifying reasons to hate the Cowboys that others think are just silly.

I'll still point out that characters change and adapt from the eras they were created to which they are written.. the idea that Barry would be a lame cookie cutter stiff because thats how you perceived his stories from the Silver Age is silly. Those writers won't be handling his comeback. Someone mentioned Artemis and Azreal... (Ray don't get mad) those two are characters who DC would really be stepping backwards with since they are the epitome of 90's gritty for the sake of it Sin City wannabe's in spandex. (and yes I read them and loved them... 15 years ago) But if someone brought them back.. they would have to be updated.. just like Barry will certainly be.

I love Bart.. I hope he shows up with the Legion in that lightning rod. I love Wally.. have every one of his Flash issues and they are my favorite (until his comeback with the kids.. yuck.) I really really like Jay's occassional issue of Flash during the Wally years and his JSA appearances.. especially the flashback of his honeymoon issue in Flash. But all the Barry hate smells like the same nonsense and logic behind the Hal haters and sales and critical response seems to say that those people were wrong or at least didn't have their finger on the pulse of popular opinion.

I'm also that one freak who was glad that Peter and Mary Jane aren't married anymore. I hated the story in which they did it, but to me the book hasn't been this good in years ever since the seperation. I just wish we would've gotten Gwen back with Harry. Peter didn't need to be replaced... just rethought for current readership. Even though the story that did it really sucked.

[JKCarrier]

The appeal of Barry Allen is that he represents a time when superheroes had some class and dignity, instead of being a bunch of whiny emo basketcases. That era isn't coming back any time soon, so yeah, resurrecting him is probably a waste of time.

Frankly, it smacks of desperation: "Well, we've managed to completely wreck every other iteration of the character, what's left?" I think they need to let the Flash franchise lie low for a while. Like Hawkman and Aquaman, having all these shake-ups/reboots in rapid succession just makes it look like irreparably damaged goods.

[Ringslinger76]

Hmm.. JK I hadn't thought of that.. you do make a rather good and disturbing point. It is almost as if DC is doing to the Flash what NBC did to the Bionic Woman before that mercy killing cancellation.
I hope Barry's return fares better than Bart's turn and Wally's comeback, but now I am worried.
Still the idea that Barry should stay dead because all he can ever be is what he was is stupid. His character had integrity... that isn't lack of a character.. that is the definition of character.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Superman Red & Blue were taken from an old silver age comic. So there's nothing "new" about them... They weren't exactly "forward" when the concept was done a number of years ago.

The 90's version bears no similarities to the 60's version, other than colors and names. They were called that in as a nostalgic nod in a story that otherwise didn't relate to the original in any way.

[Kevinroc]

The 90's version bears no similarities to the 60's version, other than colors and names. They were called that in as a nostalgic nod in a story that otherwise didn't relate to the original in any way.

I know. One of the Supermen didn't marry Lana Lang. What was that about? :tongue:

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I know. One of the Supermen didn't marry Lana Lang. What was that about? :tongue:

I just feel robbed that we didn't see the multi-hued-Kryptonite-helmet.

[Lester C.]

Poor DC. In the 90s they replaced of or redefined all the Silver Age characters running around in their books and that failed to kick Marvel's ass. Since 2004ish they had a sliver age resurgence and they are still getting their ass kicked by Marvel. It's a shame as I'm a DC guy, but sales wise it's a Marvel world and DC just lives in it.

[Grazzt]

He's not anyone's sidekick. He's not anyone's legacy, really.

Actually, I think that the Golden Age Flash legacy is one of the best parts of the Barry Allen backstory. In fact, maybe that's the appeal of Barry to the modern writers: he based himself on a "fictional" superhero. You could almost say he was the first superhero fan turned superhero, which appeals to the superhero fans writing modern comics.

[Red Jack]

Still the idea that Barry should stay dead because all he can ever be is what he was is stupid. His character had integrity... that isn't lack of a character.. that is the definition of character.

I think you're misconstruing what's been said.

Barry had a character, sure. It was Generic Superhero C with Speed Powers. Hal was Generic Superhero C with Magic Ring. Ollie was Generic Superhero C with a Bow until O'Neil and Grell got hold of him. Aquaman was Generic Superhero C Underwater until David turned him into Namor. Etc.

Marv Wolfman didn't gratuitously "kill off" Barry as has been done to characters more and more in recent years. In the context of comics Barry's death meant something. It had weight. To me it is just as significant as finding Captain America in the ice or putting baby Kal El on that rocket. His death is part of the Flash mythology like that. Reversing it spits on the importance of his sacrifice.

His adventures were fun (I especially loved the Flash Facts) and there's nothing wrong with loving them. But he, himself, was locked in a particular period. A silver one. I didn't read for the Flash's personality then. I read for the powers. I read Wally's book for the personality AND the powers. He was simply a more complex (and therefore more interesting, IMO) character (thanks Mr. Waid and Mr. Augustyn).

If DC was tired of that, they had a good 20 years of mostly awesome Wally stories locked in. They could have handed off to Bart, letting his bubbly, wacky personality define the Flash for the next generation.

Oh. Wait. They did that. Only, before they did that, somebody completely gutted everything that made Bart the fun counterpoint to Wally (and almost everybody else) that he was invented to be. Bart's "actual" death was a mercy killing. They'd murdered his character a year previous by making him broody and serious and, well, NOT BART.

Barry died. He died in the way many great legendary or mythological heroes died: selflessly saving the world (universe in this case). Let that stand. It's AWESOME. Epic. Heroic.

Killing off characters to earn ratings points is silly and ultimately counterproductive IMO. It's not an "event" if it happens every ten minutes. It's certainly not significant.

For one thing it devalues the sacrifice or importance of death in heroic fiction to make it either super common or easily reversed. It turns the whole thing into a WWE wrestling match and, for me, that's a deal breaker.

Bucky should have stayed dead. Jean Grey should have stayed dead. Thomas and Martha Wayne should stay dead. Krypton should stay dead and so should Barry.

[valentine]

There's a great Wordballoon interview with Mark Waid @ Newsarama ("http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=157442), where he discusses his thoughts about Barry's return.


On Barry Allen's apparent return:

"I would like to believe that if Barry were to come back for any length of time, that Wally would not end up being the Kyle Rayner of the Flash universe...There's not room for more than one Flash (in the DCU). I would love to be proven wrong...It's not that I'm saying that I want it that way...Once Barry is back, I just don't know what Wally's function is, other than not being the guy who's not Barry...If I didn't know some of the creative people behind the next step, I'd be in a bell tower with a rifle right now...(but), I have some faith and some trust as to where this is all going...."

[Pink Bat Maxine]

There's a great Wordballoon interview with Mark Waid @ Newsarama (http://forum.newsarama.com/showthread.php?t=157442&page=2), where he discusses his thoughts about Barry's return.

See, what I don't get about this quote is that since Flash Of Two Worlds, there always HAS been more than one flash runnin' about.

Still, just as much as I adore Barry, I want Wally to remain the Flash, and Barry to be.... not.
Also, I'm hopin' Barry's not around post Final Crisis.

I love the guy, unreasonably so, but I don't wanna go forward in THAT way. Wally's earned his slot.

[titanfan]

Why does someone always have to make it an either/or? I love the Flashes as much as I do the GL's and I wouldn't wish wrong on any of them. You youngsters have to understand that not every dead character is better left to the dust bin.

Because DC is going to only publish one Flash book at a time. Look at what happened with Hal/Kyle. Hal gets the book, Kyle fans have to be content with his sharing the spotlight in GLC. (Despite the strong sales of his recent mini-series)


Poor DC. In the 90s they replaced of or redefined all the Silver Age characters running around in their books and that failed to kick Marvel's ass. Since 2004ish they had a sliver age resurgence and they are still getting their ass kicked by Marvel. It's a shame as I'm a DC guy, but sales wise it's a Marvel world and DC just lives in it.

The market share between DC and Marvel seems closer than what it was in the 80's and 90's. (Never verified that, just seems that way)

[Stressfactor]

See, what I don't get about this quote is that since Flash Of Two Worlds, there always HAS been more than one flash runnin' about.

Ah, but the difference back then was that one Flash started on one Earth and the other Flash started on another Earth.

What I don't get are those fans who always said they didn't care for the multiple Earths concept because all the other Earths weren't 'real'. WTH -- So it's an alternate line to the main DCU -- as long as the stories are good how does that make it any less vital?

We've got 52 Earths right now people... surely there's room for a 'back from the dead' Barry Allen on ONE of them! I'd rather see Barry on an alternate Earth where a writer with a good idea can occasionally trot him out for a mini-series than a "ZOMG we brought Barry back from the dead for six issues JUST so we could kill him again at the end! Wasn't that FUN?!" THOSE kinds of stunts are the ones that really piss me off.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

What I don't get are those fans who always said they didn't care for the multiple Earths concept because all the other Earths weren't 'real'. WTH -- So it's an alternate line to the main DCU -- as long as the stories are good how does that make it any less vital?

What I don't get is how many people who say that are fans of the Ultimate marvel universe.

[Stressfactor]

What I don't get is how many people who say that are fans of the Ultimate marvel universe.


Ummm, well.... it started strong..... (quickly hides collection of Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate X-Men, and Ultimate Fantastic Four)

[Corrina]

I love the Winter Soldier. Though I'm not convinced that he's going to be alive at the end of Brubaker's run. Brubaker writes bittersweet endings. I expect Steve to be back and maybe Bucky to be dead again--this time heroically, with issues between Cap & Bucky resolved.

And I think Krypto is alive again.

And I"m all for an alternate Silver Age Earth, with Barry as the Flash. With a married Bruce Wayne & Selina Kyle.

But I think it's more likely that Barry will die at the end of Final Crisis.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

I love the Winter Soldier. Though I'm not convinced that he's going to be alive at the end of Brubaker's run. Brubaker writes bittersweet endings. I expect Steve to be back and maybe Bucky to be dead again--this time heroically, with issues between Cap & Bucky resolved.

And I think Krypto is alive again.

And I"m all for an alternate Silver Age Earth, with Barry as the Flash. With a married Bruce Wayne & Selina Kyle.

But I think it's more likely that Barry will die at the end of Final Crisis.

Yes, an 'Earth One' distinctive from a 'New Earth' would indeed be fun.

[Red Jack]

Well, by those arguments, what's the point of any of this? HYPERTIME fixed all that years ago.

Everything that could happen IS happening.

Thank you, Mr. Waid. Actual physics saves the day again.

[stealthwise]

I love the Winter Soldier. Though I'm not convinced that he's going to be alive at the end of Brubaker's run. Brubaker writes bittersweet endings. I expect Steve to be back and maybe Bucky to be dead again--this time heroically, with issues between Cap & Bucky resolved.


Yeah? I don't think that will last if it's the case, as Marvel likes to hold onto fashionable or popular characters, that's the reason they kept Venom alive and continued to bring him back well after his expiration date.

I hope that Brubaker doesn't pull that, but if he's going to eventually leave the book, I'm not sure where else he could go with the series. It seems like a waste to go to all that effort to bring back the character and re-establish him, only to kill him off at the end. Very Saturday-morning-cartoon.

[Lester C.]

I bought the oversized Captain America omnibus of Brubaker's first 25, and a couple of oneshot special issues. The pacing was incredibly slow. The book would literary crawl from point a to point b and upon arriving at point B something big would happen. It was painful to read, but a delight to look at.

Don't get me wrong I love Brubaker's DC stuff, but the whole decompressed time thing Marvel got going just doesn't suit him as I have the same problems with his Daredevil run.

[saintsaucey]

I bought the oversized Captain America omnibus of Brubaker's first 25, and a couple of oneshot special issues. The pacing was incredibly slow. The book would literary crawl from point a to point b and upon arriving at point B something big would happen. It was painful to read, but a delight to look at.

Don't get me wrong I love Brubaker's DC stuff, but the whole decompressed time thing Marvel got going just doesn't suit him as I have the same problems with his Daredevil run.

I have to agree les, it's very much like a soap opera in that aspect. you could pick up a book once a year and it hasn't progressed very much. With soap opera's you could watch one episode a week or one every two weeks and still be caught up. Not that I watch Soap Operas. As for Daredevil bruebaker should have left him in prison a while longer. That one arc was better then anything Bruebaker has written for the charachter since.