THUNDERBOLTS #120 - Discussion

[The Lucky One]

This is why Norman is the best. There is only one true Goblin! The Green Goblin!

Whoa, hey now... let's not say anything we can't take back. Norman rocks, no question, and this is a great issue. But the original Hobgoblin was the balls too, lest we forget. Smart, ruthless, and the first Goblin to demonstrate an actual sense of humor... plus, frankly, his success rate is a lot higher than Norman's. An usurper, maybe, but the best kind of one.

However, yes, Ellis does write a great Norman. The "too Doctor Doom" line was hilarious.

-D

[Mr.EZ]

Best line :

"You can't do this to me. I'm a baron!"

"I AM GOD AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!"

[worstblogever]

Best line :

"You can't do this to me. I'm a baron!"

"I AM GOD AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!"

And the more ironic part is, he crucifies the guy who claimed he was a baron, while his son chills in N.Y. :biggrin:

[Expletive Deleted]

I split these posts off from the Preview thread because . . . well, the issue is out, now.

[xnef1025]

Can Ellis write all the Green Goblin appearances from now till forever? Please?

Loved Stupid Security Guard #2 at the end too. "Man, my kid's gonna be pissed. I told him he could dress up as Iron Man and send his little buddies to the concentration camp I built in the backyard."

[Red Lotus]

Best line :

"You can't do this to me. I'm a baron!"

"I AM GOD AAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!"

I kind like the mommy line better. Poor Baron jr really didn't stand a chance. I could have read a whole issue of Norman beating the crap out of people.

[DeadXMan]

Gobby's Back baby!!!:cool:


poor swordsman. He should of realized he's not playing around with the x-men.

[drwho]

I like Norman when he is hinted as being evil rather than being seen doing out right evil things.

[Monty_Cristo]

y'know for all the crap that Baldwin's been through, lately, he really has nothing on Andreas Strucker. just consider that he was pampered most of his life until...

1. losing his sister; the only woman willing to sleep with him (i guess)

2. being mind-controlled and raped by the Purple-Man

3. being nano-chained by the CSA

4. getting the living **** beat out of him by pretty much every unregistered hero they've gone after

5. being punched in the face by Gargan-Venom

and, finally

6. being crucified by his boss


maybe Strucker should change his name to 'Penance.' oh yeah. and Robbie's "bondage gear"...Andreas used to wear that to sex parties.


I like Norman when he is hinted as being evil rather than being seen doing out right evil things.

how can someone be evil without doing evil? all of those moments of his evil being hinted at were just build-up to Norman going beserk, imo.

[Hakael]

This issue had me laughing at work, the Goblin has some classic scenes here.
The scene at the end with the mountain security was great...

"I hired some really, really dumb security forces. *sigh*"

[ultramandingo]

Best line :

........" note to self - give naked dictation more offten "

- you know thats how ellis writes his funnybooks

[Omega Alpha]

vuygf86rt674626hdsag:eek:

Yeah, this book is that awesome. Just freakin' perfect.

[Mr.EZ]

I think we can just all agree that there was some damn good one-liners in this one. I really haven't read T-Bolts in a while, and just picked this one up on a whim, but I'm gonna backtrack and pick up the ones I missed if they're as entertaining as this.

[pc999]

Perfect.
Best Green Goblin Ever.

[TotalWorldDomination]

stop the presses. turn off the printers. keep the writers from writing. This wins, hands down, no matter what comic ever comes out ever, the best villian-centric issue I've ever read. Glorious. Fantastic. Brilliant.

I can't express how wonderful this was. Bravo.

[XPac]

stop the presses. turn off the printers. keep the writers from writing. This wins, hands down, no matter what comic ever comes out ever, the best villian-centric issue I've ever read. Glorious. Fantastic. Brilliant.

I can't express how wonderful this was. Bravo.

Does Green Goblin count as the villain in this story? It's kinda hard to tell.

[ViciousX]

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/8785/img013jx2.jpg

[Cosmik Debris]

Wow Norman really out did himself this time. I didn't think anything was ever going to top the asskicking he delivered in Reason in Madness.

[jackolover]

I like Norman when he is hinted as being evil rather than being seen doing out right evil things.

Norman lost the nano-chain control (by Moonstone or his secretary, I don't know which), so Ellis was trying to convey how Osborn would react with no restraint on him at all, and we got just that.

I only wish that Osborn could show his true side, because ever since Pulse #5, we haven't seen the Green Goblin unfetted (except for a few nano-chained appearances in CW Frontline). I can only imagine that TBolts #121 will re-establish the nano-chain control in Norman, again, and he'll just be what you want, drwho. But I really want Osborn to go off leash, and SI would have been ideal for him to chase down the BND Parker. Those new deal villians Peter dances with are chicken feed when Norman comes flying along holding Aunt May aloft, shouting, " Hey Parker, (opps, did I let the cat out of the bag?), it's round two. Meet me at the bridge. Oh, and don't forget to bring a blond wig. I so like to snap the blond ones necks"

[XPac]

Norman lost the nano-chain control (by Moonstone or his secretary, I don't know which), so Ellis was trying to convey how Osborn would react with no restraint on him at all, and we got just that.

I only wish that Osborn could show his true side, because ever since Pulse #5, we haven't seen the Green Goblin unfetted (except for a few nano-chained appearances in CW Frontline). I can only imagine that TBolts #121 will re-establish the nano-chain control in Norman, again, and he'll just be what you want, drwho. But I really want Osborn to go off leash, and SI would have been ideal for him to chase down the BND Parker. Those new deal villians Peter dances with are chicken feed when Norman comes flying along holding Aunt May aloft, shouting, " Hey Parker, (opps, did I let the cat out of the bag?), it's round two. Meet me at the bridge. Oh, and don't forget to bring a blond wig. I so like to snap the blond ones necks"

The TBolts did try to take down Spidey in Invaders/Avengers... though they failed miserably. Perhaps next time they try, that will justify Norman getting involved.

That said, OMD has really limited his biggest weapon against Spidey... knowing Peters identity. Now that he doesn't know who Peter is, to a degree he's sort of like any other villain now. He was a lot scarier before when you could do what you just said.

[jackolover]

The TBolts did try to take down Spidey in Invaders/Avengers... though they failed miserably. Perhaps next time they try, that will justify Norman getting involved.

That said, OMD has really limited his biggest weapon against Spidey... knowing Peters identity. Now that he doesn't know who Peter is, to a degree he's sort of like any other villain now. He was a lot scarier before when you could do what you just said.

Yeah, but like you say, the slate is clean, as far as Norman knowing who Spiderman is. Funny though. Norman has been harping all through TBolts about Spiderman, almost to the point of obsession, and if he doesn't know it's Peter, Norman is on the threshold of that memory.

Nevertheless, what BND does do, is reset the time frame back to before ASM #39, before Norman saw Spiderman go inside Aunt Mays house. Now writers are in the same boat that Steve Ditko was in, about how should the Green Goblin be revealed, and what path should the story go. Will Norman find out the identity again, or will we have a Green Goblin that will never know Peters identity?

[ultramandingo]

..........where they keepin bullseye at ? hope norman runs in to him and shows him how they did it back in the day - pumkin bomb stlyle - he'll wish the american eagle was there to save him

[Dr. Chaos]

Ellis wins.

Everybody else can go home now.

This issue emphasizes everything I want from the new Thunderbolts.

Super Villians kicking absolute maximum ass for 22 pages instead of getting their ass handed to them by random super heroes.


Does Green Goblin count as the villain in this story? It's kinda hard to tell.
He's out randomly killing people again probably not for the best of reasons I would assume.

He may not be the central villian but he's certainly not the hero.

[CyberHubbs]

I'll make it a point to pick this up tomorrow.

Norman sitting on the toilet while wearing his goblin mask made me pick up the first Thunderbolts trade for Ellis' run. I feel I owe the man that much.

[Dr. Chaos]

If theres a god in this world (other than Ellis), Venom will eat atleast one of those damn psychic vigilantes, preferably the blonde.

Their misguided attempts to stop the Thunderbolts can not go unpunished.

I really hope Norman finds them like rats in a cage.

[mikekerr3]

Does Green Goblin count as the villain in this story? It's kinda hard to tell.

I think murdering the guards puts him in the villain category, as if he ever left it, when has he been anything else than murderous lying scum?

I want the old T-bolts back

[mikekerr3]

If theres a god in this world (other than Ellis), Venom will eat atleast one of those damn psychic vigilantes, preferably the blonde.

Their misguided attempts to stop the Thunderbolts can not go unpunished.

I really hope Norman finds them like rats in a cage.

Yes people who want to stop murederous criminals do deserve to die. Being right is so misguided

[rick]

Yes people who want to stop murederous criminals do deserve to die. Being right is so misguided


You are really talking about the wrong book if you are looking for love and respect to heroes in Thunderbolts.

[mikekerr3]

You are really talking about the wrong book if you are looking for love and respect to heroes in Thunderbolts.

Thats why this was my last issue the old t-bolts had at least some virtuesm this crew with a couple of exception is just vile. getting tired of reading a book where I hope the title characters die.

[Jake V]

Thats why this was my last issue the old t-bolts had at least some virtuesm this crew with a couple of exception is just vile. getting tired of reading a book where I hope the title characters die.

Do you hope that ALL villains in every comic die? Because thats what they are. It's a book about villains and they do villainous things.

The only way I could see people being outraged or offended by this comic is if they were unaware of what they were reading.

[Dr. Chaos]

Yes people who want to stop murederous criminals do deserve to die. Being right is so misguided
When your best idea of justice is killing fellow heroes and security guards (giving people cancer? WTF?) to frame law enforcement in a sick telepathic game, yes, they sure do have the moral high ground.

These guys are idiots.

They're not heroes, they're just murderers, just like half The Thunderbolts.

Bottomline, I do not flat out give a **** about heroes when I'm reading this book, I want to see pumpkin bombs flying and brains being eaten, it's not about justice, it's about sadism and corruption, really.

[Gnarl]

Norman Osbourne is the one villain who is not going to be too fazed by OMD. You'd think the complete illogic of not remembering Spider-mans identitiy would get to him. But he always rolled like that

Remember the identity, forget it, remember, forget it...

OMD was an insane truckload of self-contadictory waste to most of us. To Norman it was tuesday.

[mikekerr3]

Do you hope that ALL villains in every comic die? Because thats what they are. It's a book about villains and they do villainous things.

The only way I could see people being outraged or offended by this comic is if they were unaware of what they were reading.

Not outraged or offended, just liked the old T-bolts better, let Robbie and Chen get out and kill off the rest already. The idea of a goverment backed group of supervillians is getting tired.

[killerbass]

Stake Claimer:

This was the best comic of the year.

I liked it so much; I wanted to run back to the comic book store and buy another copy.

Good grief; so worth the wait!

--Tom

[KetchFrayz]

Stake Claimer:

This was the best comic of the year.

I liked it so much; I wanted to run back to the comic book store and buy another copy.

Good grief; so worth the wait!

--Tom

co-signs 100%

[TotalWorldDomination]

Does Green Goblin count as the villain in this story? It's kinda hard to tell.

That's one of the most wonderful things about the story! to quote tracy jordan on the wonderful program 30 Rock he's "straight up mentally ill!" He's insane, he's wacked, he's a person with SEVERE mental disorders trying to do what he thinks is right. And he happens to think that he is god... so pretty much anything he dose is right. It's glorious.


co-signs 100%

Motion Thirded. If there are no objections we shall proceed to a floor vote.

[StoneGold]

The only thing I didn't like about this comic, when Ellis let slip a few British phrases during Osborn's rants. But if it was the only way he could get the insanity out, screw it, I'll take them. They were a little odd, but they weren't reality breaking.

[Rahul]

The only thing I didn't like about this comic, when Ellis let slip a few British phrases during Osborn's rants. But if it was the only way he could get the insanity out, screw it, I'll take them. They were a little odd, but they weren't reality breaking.
I'm not British, so can you enlighten us which ones sound so?


Anyway, terrific issue, Ellis writes the Greenest Goblin there is, and the art is rocktacular.

My only complaint is ...where's Bullseye?

[Pixie_Solanas]

Just when I thought the arc was starting to drag, Ellis pulls a stunner of an issue out of his arse.

LOVE IT. I can't find fault with a single bit of it.

Now, as was mentioned before, let's bring Bullseye back, mmkay?

[Magneto Rocks]

This may be the single greatest thing ever published in the history of the printed page.

I want to take "So says President Goblin!" and frame it on my wall.

[Tobias Drake]

....this IS my week for being wrong. ASM, GoG, and now this.

I knew Osborn was suiting back up, so I expected crap. I've never liked the Green Goblin as a character, with the exception of the Spectacular Spider-Man series that managed to sell him quite successfully to me. I've always liked Norman the mastermind, but hated Norman the Joker Riding A Mechanical Bat. He's just never worked for me.

But holy crap, this was good. I completely take back everything I've said about the Green Goblin. I mean...damn. That was good.

[agrich]

Yeah, I didn't think a comic could ever change my feelings of disdain for them resurrecting Norman Osborn, but this one came close. Ellis in peak form. I mean, I've enjoyed the entire run, but this one was a classic.

[StoneGold]

I'm not British, so can you enlighten us which ones sound so?


Truthfully, it's not so much that they are British, as they aren't American, and I'm just assuming they're British. I'd be specific, but I don't have the issue in front of me right now. It's one or two of the insults. For all I know, it could just be Ellis making stuff up, but they just don't sound very American. And after Norman's presidential rant, they should.

[CyberHubbs]

I don't know if it was the bee's knees as everyone was making it out to be, but it was definitely Norman in top form. Too bad the entire thing was just psychic suggestions.

...or was it?!

[Dr. Chaos]

I don't know if it was the bee's knees as everyone was making it out to be, but it was definitely Norman in top form. Too bad the entire thing was just psychic suggestions.

...or was it?!
Going by the way they almost got Chen to blast everyone on the mountain, and he's a pretty alright guy these days, it's definitely not something that they're all doing in their right mind.

The fact that Venom, Norman and such are who they are, it makes them extremely good targets for manipulation becuase chances are most people probably wouldn't be able to notice the difference.

[HIK248]

I don't know if it was the bee's knees as everyone was making it out to be, but it was definitely Norman in top form. Too bad the entire thing was just psychic suggestions.

...or was it?!

Well for the others yes but for Norman it's just Friday:biggrin:

[CyberHubbs]

Going by the way they almost got Chen to blast everyone on the mountain, and he's a pretty alright guy these days, it's definitely not something that they're all doing in their right mind.

The fact that Venom, Norman and such are who they are, it makes them extremely good targets for manipulation becuase chances are most people probably wouldn't be able to notice the difference.

Well, I meant Norman's freak-out. It'll probably be revealed after its all said and done that none of the psychics touched him. He just really is a crazy bastard.

[Pixie_Solanas]

Gents, and I say this with all true sincerity, this issue #120 of Thunderbolts may be the most entertaining single issue of a comic book i've ever read. If not, it's certainly in the top-5.

[Tobias Drake]

I find it interesting that, after all the arguments about their team being a disaster waiting to happen, the reason that disaster really happened was because telepaths are mind-controlling them.

I really hope this isn't the "justification" for disbanding the team as it stands now. Because while I can certainly agree that there is every possible way this team can go wrong, this isn't one of those. Pretty much everyone involved in this is completely absolved of their wrongdoings in this arc due to the fact that mind-controlling telepaths are controlling them.

[DeusFlac]

i'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that Norman was father of Gwen's love children survived the OMD fiacso

[Magneto Rocks]

i'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that Norman was father of Gwen's love children survived the OMD fiacso

Two points
First, it's not a fiasco by any definition. No-one was fired, saled did not in any way fall (In fact, they rose. By a good bit.) and if we define things as "fiascos" because the internet hates them, then almost every major story in the last several decades was a fiasco.

Second, we already knew that - what's been changed has been, for the most part, VERY clearly defined, and there was nothing to imply Sins Past would be gone.

[Karl Cook]

This was a fantastic issue! Absolutely brilliant portrayal of Norman Osborn as the Green Goblin, a true badass who you just wouldn't wanna fuck with!
Best line (out of so many...): " I was wondering if you could direct me to the arm-eating retard and the sword-waving aristo," " I have to punish them you see."
This made me laugh out loud, really loud...:biggrin:

[Monty_Cristo]

Norman/Colbert ticket? i wonder if Colbert would agree to be vice president.

[ViciousX]

Norman/Colbert ticket? i wonder if Colbert would agree to be vice president.

Hey, if he didn't mind being VP to a nutcase like Huckabee, Norman would be fine.

[DeadXMan]

i'm surprised no one mentioned the fact that Norman was father of Gwen's love children survived the OMD fiacso

can't wait for the osborn family reuion/spider hunt

Pete is so boned

[Trey]

What made the issue so great? The amazing art. I mean that's badass art, every single panel.


"Smells like death, blondes, and victory."

"A complete dog's breakfast"----British term?

Osborn used the word "shall" a couple of times, maybe that's what sounded like a nancy british gent would say.

Are these 4 psychics new characters? Are they known psychics? if so why weren't power dampeners used?

[Karl Cook]

What made the issue so great? The amazing art. I mean that's badass art, every single panel.


"Smells like death, blondes, and victory."

"A complete dog's breakfast"----British term?

Osborn used the word "shall" a couple of times, maybe that's what sounded like a nancy british gent would say.

Are these 4 psychics new characters? Are they known psychics? if so why weren't power dampeners used?

The actual British term is " complete dog's dinner", but it's close enough. Just to clarify, yes, I am a Brit.:smile:

[Monty_Cristo]

What made the issue so great? The amazing art. I mean that's badass art, every single panel.


"Smells like death, blondes, and victory."

"A complete dog's breakfast"----British term?

Osborn used the word "shall" a couple of times, maybe that's what sounded like a nancy british gent would say.

Are these 4 psychics new characters? Are they known psychics? if so why weren't power dampeners used?

the four of them are using identities once carried by former supervillain victims of Scourge; probably to cover up the fact that they are actually psychics.

[StoneGold]

"A complete dog's breakfast"----British term?


OK, that was definitely one of the lines I was bitching about earlier. Whether it is or isn't a proper British term, it definitely isn't an American one. There's nothing even close. It's like, and I was bitching about this in another thread, when British writers have Americans going "Tch." Americans don't go "Tch."

[AnthonyJ]

Pretty much everyone involved in this is completely absolved of their wrongdoings in this arc due to the fact that mind-controlling telepaths are controlling them.
I wouldn't say "completely"; there's some evidence for them being unusually vulnerable due to their own personality quirks. The presence of the telepaths are likely sufficient to get them out of direct legal jeopardy, unless the subsequent investigation uncovers other crimes, which it might, but the PR fiasco could be sufficient to shut them down.

[Tobias Drake]

I wouldn't say "completely"; there's some evidence for them being unusually vulnerable due to their own personality quirks. The presence of the telepaths are likely sufficient to get them out of direct legal jeopardy, unless the subsequent investigation uncovers other crimes, which it might, but the PR fiasco could be sufficient to shut them down.

Although there will only be a PR fiasco if this in any way gets outside of Thunderbolts Mountain. So far, it's completely contained within the mountain away from the public's eyes. This, in and of itself, is the fundamental flaw in the psychics' plans: no one will notice.

[XPac]

Though this whole telepath thing is the perfect excuse to shut down a really really terrible idea, I'm sure Osborne and his crew will continue without any real consequences.

The truth is, the telepaths are largely getting the "monsters" on the team to act how they basically would normally act if they were able to. But the telepaths will be enough of an "out" to get everyone off the hook.

[Tobias Drake]

Though this whole telepath thing is the perfect excuse to shut down a really really terrible idea, I'm sure Osborne and his crew will continue without any real consequences.

The truth is, the telepaths are largely getting the "monsters" on the team to act how they basically would normally act if they were able to. But the telepaths will be enough of an "out" to get everyone off the hook.

Pretty much. The telepaths seem to have not accounted for the fact that their actions have given the monsters on the team the freedom to indulge their darkest desires while completely absolving them of any and all consequences. They haven't defeated the problem in any way, shape, or form. They've actually made it significantly worse. Nothing that they are attempting to gain can be gained in this way; they have defeated themselves.

Honestly, I would very much like to know how much time they really put into thinking this through. And how much alcohol was involved.

[StoneGold]

That would be assuming the teeps don't have some kind of escape plan worked out. If the teeps aren't there, they can't be blamed.

[XPac]

Pretty much. The telepaths seem to have not accounted for the fact that their actions have given the monsters on the team the freedom to indulge their darkest desires while completely absolving them of any and all consequences. They haven't defeated the problem in any way, shape, or form. They've actually made it significantly worse. Nothing that they are attempting to gain can be gained in this way; they have defeated themselves.

Honestly, I would very much like to know how much time they really put into thinking this through. And how much alcohol was involved.

Well, the problem is that everything is occuring in a relatively enclosed area away from prying eyes. It's very easy to cover this whole thing up.

Were the TBolts publically acting out, the bad PR could very well be enough to shut them down. But as it is now, it'll be easy enough to cover up and sweep under the rug.

[Monty_Cristo]

Were the TBolts publically acting out, the bad PR could very well be enough to shut them down.

are you kidding? one of the t-bolts it the son of a nazi. another very proudly eats people. how does this make their pr worse?


OK, that was definitely one of the lines I was bitching about earlier. Whether it is or isn't a proper British term, it definitely isn't an American one. There's nothing even close. It's like, and I was bitching about this in another thread, when British writers have Americans going "Tch." Americans don't go "Tch."

i talk in a middle-eastern accent when i'm drunk. Norman's crazy. that's like drunk x 100.

[CyberHubbs]

"YOU HEARD HIM! I DON'T WANT CANCER!"

That is the best line, right there.

I'm not sure how I feel about Swordsman being crucified, though. Not from a religious point of view, of course, 'cause I could care less. It just seems...overdone, or expected.

[Cthulhudrew]

It's like, and I was bitching about this in another thread, when British writers have Americans going "Tch." Americans don't go "Tch."

I always read "Tch" as either a clucking of the tongue sound, or perhaps an alveopalatal affricate. People do that all the time, American or otherwise.

[XPac]

are you kidding? one of the t-bolts it the son of a nazi. another very proudly eats people. how does this make their pr worse?



Is it publically known that Swordsman is the son of a nazi? Or the son of the leader of Hydra? Or the leader of his own terrorist group Fenris?

I could be wrong, but I'm assuming they government is at least trying to keep a lid on this. If not, then yeah there should be a good deal of bad PR around them already and the public and government is just that stupid.

[Monty_Cristo]

"YOU HEARD HIM! I DON'T WANT CANCER!"

That is the best line, right there.

I'm not sure how I feel about Swordsman being crucified, though. Not from a religious point of view, of course, 'cause I could care less. It just seems...overdone, or expected.

the alternative would, surely, be worse.

[CyberHubbs]

the alternative would, surely, be worse.

I'd have been fine with that. Cut his hands off and cram them up his butt, or somethin' that shows just how batshit insane Osborn is.

[StoneGold]

I always read "Tch" as either a clucking of the tongue sound, or perhaps an alveopalatal affricate. People do that all the time, American or otherwise.

But if we do, we spell it Tsk, and it's generally regarded as either stuffy or effeminate, and not at all Black Knight in badass motorcycle riding mode.

[DeadXMan]

I'd have been fine with that. Cut his hands off and cram them up his butt, or somethin' that shows just how batshit insane Osborn is.

there was no bridges near by at the time

[StoneGold]

there was no bridges near by at the time

Moonstone was around, you could always build a bridge out of her.



Sorry, bizarre Monty Python reference.

[DeadXMan]

Moonstone was around, you could always build a bridge out of her.



Sorry, bizarre Monty Python reference.


indeed. bridges are also made of stone

[Dr. Chaos]

or somethin' that shows just how batshit insane Osborn is.
President Goblin?

I'd vote for him.

(sorry, Red Skull)

[Cthulhudrew]

But if we do, we spell it Tsk...

Tsk is a completely different sound. "Tisk" vs. "ch" or "th".

[CyberHubbs]

there was no bridges near by at the time

They're in a mountain. Just toss him off the peak!

[DeadXMan]

So Marvel has

A Nazi trap in a communist body, an insane person willing to kill you if you mess up, and a smart ass running for the office.

talk about art imitating art. (McCain is the smart ass btw, now you figure the rest out)

[DeadXMan]

They're in a mountain. Just toss him off the peak!

not at today's gas prices

[jackolover]

Norman Osbourne is the one villain who is not going to be too fazed by OMD. You'd think the complete illogic of not remembering Spider-mans identity would get to him. But he always rolled like that

Remember the identity, forget it, remember, forget it...

OMD was an insane truckload of self-contradictory waste to most of us. To Norman it was Tuesday.

Heres hoping that Norman gets a headache, and whoosh, 'I know who Spiderman is'. But there is a bit of mileage in Norman meeting Spiderman and not being able to manipulate him. I liked those early Goblin stories, because Norman was just another whack job, and Spidey just another sticky interference. I wonder if Peter knows who Goblin is? I suppose he's read the news and seen Osborn arrested, but I wonder if Harry and Peter know Harrys dad works for the TBolts?

[Dr. Chaos]

Peter still knows who Norman is, just like he still knows Harry was a goblin.

[jackolover]

Well, the problem is that everything is occuring in a relatively enclosed area away from prying eyes. It's very easy to cover this whole thing up.

Were the TBolts publically acting out, the bad PR could very well be enough to shut them down. But as it is now, it'll be easy enough to cover up and sweep under the rug.

The Telepaths really needed to kill the TBolts, and who is dead yet? This plan isn't showing any fruition at this point. The plan has failed.

[StoneGold]

Heres hoping that Norman gets a headache, and whoosh, 'I know who Spiderman is'. But there is a bit of mileage in Norman meeting Spiderman and not being able to manipulate him. I liked those early Goblin stories, because Norman was just another whack job, and Spidey just another sticky interference. I wonder if Peter knows who Goblin is? I suppose he's read the news and seen Osborn arrested, but I wonder if Harry and Peter know Harrys dad works for the TBolts?

Pete knows who Norman is. The spell was that no one remembers who Pete is now, it didn't write out all the previous reveals. Presumably, there's an extra piece of magic in there that keeps people from thinking to hard about the missing piece of information in their minds. Honestly, I don't understand the total confusion about that. There's been plenty of mindwipe stories in the past. Eventually, cracks will form, but it's still relatively early in the overall story. I'm guessing someone starts to remember something around the time they reveal what happened in between when MJ whispered to Mephisto, and the last couple pages of the issue.

[StoneGold]

The Telepaths really needed to kill the TBolts, and who is dead yet? This plan isn't showing any fruition at this point. The plan has failed.

The plan is still ongoing... and they don't need to kill the Tbolts, they need the Tbolts to kill everyone else.

[jackolover]

alveopalatal affricate. .

The who, the...what?

[jackolover]

Is it publically known that Swordsman is the son of a nazi? Or the son of the leader of Hydra? Or the leader of his own terrorist group Fenris?

I could be wrong, but I'm assuming they government is at least trying to keep a lid on this. If not, then yeah there should be a good deal of bad PR around them already and the public and government is just that stupid.

They have toys named after them, and they outsell Captain America dolls. I'd say the spin people are doing a good job.

[XPac]

President Goblin?

I'd vote for him.

(sorry, Red Skull)

Hmmm... Red or Green.

That would be one hell of a tough call at the ballot box.

[XPac]

Pete knows who Norman is. The spell was that no one remembers who Pete is now, it didn't write out all the previous reveals. Presumably, there's an extra piece of magic in there that keeps people from thinking to hard about the missing piece of information in their minds. Honestly, I don't understand the total confusion about that. There's been plenty of mindwipe stories in the past. Eventually, cracks will form, but it's still relatively early in the overall story. I'm guessing someone starts to remember something around the time they reveal what happened in between when MJ whispered to Mephisto, and the last couple pages of the issue.

I think there are a lot of confusing elements right off the bat.

For example, there's the fact that Spider-Man did register. Yet all these people are chasing after him in violation of the registration act. Clearly the government has forgotten his identity... but did the fact that he register not occur? Or do they remember that he registered, but just forgot who he was?

I've been confused about that. But this is probably more a topic for the Spidey board.

[jackolover]

The plan is still ongoing... and they don't need to kill the Tbolts, they need the Tbolts to kill everyone else.

Then I'm not too sure what the plan is. The Telepaths came into TBolts mountain to get rid of the abomination that the government put together. They don't do it in public, so this gets no publicity. The only alternative I can come too is that the Telepaths want to kill them.

[jackolover]

I think there are a lot of confusing elements right off the bat.

For example, there's the fact that Spider-Man did register. Yet all these people are chasing after him in violation of the registration act. Clearly the government has forgotten his identity... but did the fact that he register not occur? Or do they remember that he registered, but just forgot who he was?

I've been confused about that. But this is probably more a topic for the Spidey board.

No. It's a good point. Surely it's been mentioned that Spidey is registered. But if nobody knows Peters identity, how can he be registered? He has to give his name during the registration process.

[DeadXMan]

he used either ben's or Flash's names

I'm hopping he used Flsash's, oh the hijnks!

[StoneGold]

I think there are a lot of confusing elements right off the bat.

For example, there's the fact that Spider-Man did register. Yet all these people are chasing after him in violation of the registration act. Clearly the government has forgotten his identity... but did the fact that he register not occur? Or do they remember that he registered, but just forgot who he was?

I've been confused about that. But this is probably more a topic for the Spidey board.

Relatively simple. They remember he registered. They remember he then broke from the registered ranks. But they don't remember his name, and part of the magic keeps them from questioning why they don't remember his name.

If the Contemplator could do it for Cap, Mephisto can do it for Spidey.

[StoneGold]

Then I'm not too sure what the plan is. The Telepaths came into TBolts mountain to get rid of the abomination that the government put together. They don't do it in public, so this gets no publicity. The only alternative I can come too is that the Telepaths want to kill them.

Presumably, they either have some sort of monitoring devices with them, or they are hoping that the feds can't cover up an entire mountain of dead people. But the plan isn't to kill the Tbolts. If it was that, they wouldn't have sent Moonstone to kill Len and Robbie. The plan is to show the Tbolts as killers.

[Monty_Cristo]

Presumably, they either have some sort of monitoring devices with them, or they are hoping that the feds can't cover up an entire mountain of dead people. But the plan isn't to kill the Tbolts. If it was that, they wouldn't have sent Moonstone to kill Len and Robbie. The plan is to show the Tbolts as killers.

do we actually know the plan, yet? they could very well be there to kill them. a couple of them are hard to kill. they might just be playing mind games to widdle down the opposition. afterall, they are using the names of former Scourge victims. if there is a connection to Scourge, then it would imply that they are out to kill bad guys. :smile:

[XPac]

Relatively simple. They remember he registered. They remember he then broke from the registered ranks. But they don't remember his name, and part of the magic keeps them from questioning why they don't remember his name.

If the Contemplator could do it for Cap, Mephisto can do it for Spidey.

But if they remember that he registered, then he's not in violation of the SHRA. That's my point. They can try and arrest him for helping with Caps rebellion... but to constantly try to arrest him for not registering just seems kinda weird to me. So either the books are citing the wrong reason for them trying to arrest him or OMD retconed him registering. Either was, it's kinda confusing at least to me.

[Dr. Chaos]

But if they remember that he registered, then he's not in violation of the SHRA. That's my point.
Actually, he is.

He's not with the initiative, he's not working under the Initiative like Jackpot, he's working with The New Avengers and he refuses to give up his identity, which IS a problem even though the events of Civil War still happened. It doesn't really matter if he carries a laminated card or not, he's operating outside of the law and has no contact with the SHRA whatsoever.

In fact, it's all the more reason to catch him now, having all traces of Spider-Man's identity wiped even though they know they had it is a major security breach, they would want one hell of an answer from him.

I know if I was Tony, it would be quite worriesome.

[XPac]

Actually, he is.

He's not with the initiative, he's not working under the Initiative like Jackpot, he's working with The New Avengers and he refuses to give up his identity, which IS a problem even though the events of Civil War still happened. It doesn't really matter if he carries a laminated card or not, he's operating outside of the law and has no contact with the SHRA whatsoever.

In fact, it's all the more reason to catch him now, having all traces of Spider-Man's identity wiped even though they know they had it is a major security breach, they would want one hell of an answer from him.

I know if I was Tony, it would be quite worriesome.

He DID give up his identity... he registered, and he unmasked himself publically. It's just that they forgot who he was.

If indeed they do realize that they used to know Peters identity and now have forgotten, then yes it's a possible security risk since from their perspective Spidey somehow brainwashed the entire planet and every bit of information documenting his identity. But it doesn't seem like anyone is noticing or really reacting to the fact that the this has happened.

Does Peter himself even remember unmasking? Is he sitting there wondering why no one remembers his identity? Like I said, it's kind of unclear how a lot of this works.

[Dr. Chaos]

Xpac, do you really think the government would let him off on such a bizzare technicality like that?

"He's registered, Spider-Man is in the computer, with us now and forever and we accidentally forgot who he was, theres nonthing we can do..oh well"

It's ridiculous and just not plausible. It's like giving a police officer a badge and saying "okay, john, heres your gun, go do whatever you want to and don't ever worry about coming by the police station or calling in" they're not going to do it.

It's a problem regardless of what they know or don't know about him outside of the suit.

[agirlyman]

I am drooling just thinking about the next Spiderman/Goblin cover, this is gonna be good^^

[Dr. Chaos]

I'm hoping Dan is using this issue as a Green Goblin bible for the "new ways to die" arc.

This is Norman perfection.

I thought it couldn't get any better than Osborn sitting on the can wearing his mask but apparently I was wrong, very wrong.

[XPac]

Xpac, do you really think the government would let him off on such a bizzare technicality like that?

"He's registered, Spider-Man is in the computer, with us now and forever and we accidentally forgot who he was, theres nonthing we can do..oh well"

It's ridiculous and just not plausible. It's like giving a police officer a badge and saying "okay, john, heres your gun, go do whatever you want to and don't ever worry about coming by the police station or calling in" they're not going to do it.

It's a problem regardless of what they know or don't know about him outside of the suit.

Since this is TBolts thread and not a Spidey thread, I'll let the issue drop.

[The Man Without Fear]

Man, the TBolts threads explode long before I've a chance to even glance at the book it seems.

Anyway, awesome issue, as has already been pointed out numerous times, with absolutely great art, dialogue, and characterization, all of which have also already been pointed out several times. For me, I really enjoyed how intimidated everyone was of Green Goblin; not just the henchmen minding the corridors, but even Swordsman. Gave a defining sense of just how scary the guy truly is.

- Manning

[sHayden]

I'm hoping Dan is using this issue as a Green Goblin bible for the "new ways to die" arc.

This is Norman perfection.

I thought it couldn't get any better than Osborn sitting on the can wearing his mask but apparently I was wrong, very wrong.

I concur. This was absolute genius. A lot of comics that do not come out regularly are not worth the wait. This one has been, recently.

[4thHorseman]

Seriously, the Goblin had some of the best dialogue i've heard in years. It's been so long since I've read an issue where one character completely stands out the way the Goblin did this issue. Just...great work on Ellis's part.

[overcomebyfumes]

Can't Warren Ellis write this book forever? Please, Marvel... please please please pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease??

Best. Comic. Ever.

pax.

[Tobias Drake]

Man, the TBolts threads explode long before I've a chance to even glance at the book it seems.

Anyway, awesome issue, as has already been pointed out numerous times, with absolutely great art, dialogue, and characterization, all of which have also already been pointed out several times. For me, I really enjoyed how intimidated everyone was of Green Goblin; not just the henchmen minding the corridors, but even Swordsman. Gave a defining sense of just how scary the guy truly is.

- Manning

The difference between Swordsman and GG is the difference between structured, goal-oriented insanity, and absolute, malevolent psychosis. The former may be more effective than the latter, but the latter is infinitely more terrifying in person.

[StoneGold]

The difference between Swordsman and GG is the difference between structured, goal-oriented insanity, and absolute, malevolent psychosis. The former may be more effective than the latter, but the latter is infinitely more terrifying in person.

Frankly, this is the craziest GG's ever been. His insanity is usually completely rational. It's usually just that he's incredibly anti-social. But this... this would have freaked out the Joker. This was over the top to the extreme. Now, this is maybe how GG should always be, and have been, but he wasn't. For continuity purposes, I'll chalk it up to the personae being forced to remain dormant for so long due due to the meds, but at the end of the day, screw it. Awesome writing trumps continuity.

[StoneGold]

Can't Warren Ellis write this book forever? Please, Marvel... please please please pleasepleasepleasepleaseplease??

Best. Comic. Ever.

pax.

I'm almost not even sure that's a good idea. This feels like an Ellis blowout. Everything on the table, all-in. Does he have anything left after this?

[Magneto Rocks]

Frankly, this is the craziest GG's ever been. His insanity is usually completely rational. It's usually just that he's incredibly anti-social. But this... this would have freaked out the Joker. This was over the top to the extreme. Now, this is maybe how GG should always be, and have been, but he wasn't. For continuity purposes, I'll chalk it up to the personae being forced to remain dormant for so long due due to the meds, but at the end of the day, screw it. Awesome writing trumps continuity.

I agree it's totally outside continuity in terms of how he usually acts, but surely it makes more sense to chalk this one up to a combination of the fact Moonstone's been screwing with his meds and there are psychics manipulating him? Seems like enough to me when dealing with an already fragile mind.

[StoneGold]

I agree it's totally outside continuity in terms of how he usually acts, but surely it makes more sense to chalk this one up to a combination of the fact Moonstone's been screwing with his meds and there are psychics manipulating him? Seems like enough to me when dealing with an already fragile mind.

There's plenty of reasons why he's acting crazier. But the main one is we expect him to be a certain level of crazy, just Ellis pushed it to 11.

[Teh m0nk3y]

Just read the issue and like others my face had a big grin from ear to ear.
I never was especially fond of old Norman, but right now I'm his bloody groupie!
There was a near demented laughter emanating from me for each page that I flipped in awe of Green Goblin's carnage. Best issue so far! It was almost a disappointment towards the end since it meant I would have to wait a month for the continuation.

[Tobias Drake]

Frankly, this is the craziest GG's ever been. His insanity is usually completely rational. It's usually just that he's incredibly anti-social. But this... this would have freaked out the Joker. This was over the top to the extreme. Now, this is maybe how GG should always be, and have been, but he wasn't. For continuity purposes, I'll chalk it up to the personae being forced to remain dormant for so long due due to the meds, but at the end of the day, screw it. Awesome writing trumps continuity.

Which is why I like it. Green Goblin can be one of two things: he can be silly or he can be SCARY. This was scary. And that works for me. I've never liked Silly Green Goblin, because I've never seen anything about Silly Green Goblin that justifies destroying any and all credibility Norman Osborn has as a serious and dangerous tactical mastermind.

It's very hard to take a mastermind seriously when he's dressed as a Power Ranger and throwing pumpkins at you. But this was absolutely beautiful. This was psychotic at its best.

[Karl Cook]

Which is why I like it. Green Goblin can be one of two things: he can be silly or he can be SCARY. This was scary. And that works for me. I've never liked Silly Green Goblin, because I've never seen anything about Silly Green Goblin that justifies destroying any and all credibility Norman Osborn has as a serious and dangerous tactical mastermind.

It's very hard to take a mastermind seriously when he's dressed as a Power Ranger and throwing pumpkins at you. But this was absolutely beautiful. This was psychotic at its best.

Well said, Tobias, you really hit the nail on the head there.

[dkostus]

Seriously, the Goblin had some of the best dialogue i've heard in years. It's been so long since I've read an issue where one character completely stands out the way the Goblin did this issue. Just...great work on Ellis's part.


The funny thing is, the Swordsman stood out almost as much last issue. There were pages and pages of people talking about what a badass he was and that they never realised he was that frickin cool. then Norman took it to a level Swordsman can't even go...

[Karl Cook]

The funny thing is, the Swordsman stood out almost as much last issue. There were pages and pages of people talking about what a badass he was and that they never realised he was that frickin cool. then Norman took it to a level Swordsman can't even go...

Norman's been telling the T-Bolts for a while now that he's the Daddy when it comes to being a Badass so he decided it was time to show them what he meant. I guess it's kind of a "show and tell" in reverse...:biggrin:

[Magneto Rocks]

Only Ellis could first persuade me that Non-costume Osborn is FAR better than costumed Goblin and then persuade me within just over a year that costume Goblin is better than God. ;)


The funny thing is, the Swordsman stood out almost as much last issue. There were pages and pages of people talking about what a badass he was and that they never realised he was that frickin cool. then Norman took it to a level Swordsman can't even go...

He's done that with pretty much all the Bolts. First it was Bullseye and Moonstone, then Swordsman, now Osborn. Once he started treating Penance as not-a-loser he made him into a believable character, and he made me feel genuine sympathy for Songbird and R-Man. The only Bolt I don't think Ellis has redefined for me is Venom, and that's because I prefer Venom the Anti-Spidey to Venom the Psychotic Monster. Although ripping off Steel Spider-s arm and "Get out of my way, I got super hero work to do!" nearly changed that. Nearly.

[Monty_Cristo]

Which is why I like it. Green Goblin can be one of two things: he can be silly or he can be SCARY. This was scary. And that works for me. I've never liked Silly Green Goblin, because I've never seen anything about Silly Green Goblin that justifies destroying any and all credibility Norman Osborn has as a serious and dangerous tactical mastermind.

It's very hard to take a mastermind seriously when he's dressed as a Power Ranger and throwing pumpkins at you. But this was absolutely beautiful. This was psychotic at its best.

i think some credit should be given to Deodato. he drew the hell out of this issue. that scene (in the very beginning) where Norman's calmly chatting with the guards in costume was perfect. i could just imagine crapping myself when he came out of the room in his halloween costume.


Just read the issue and like others my face had a big grin from ear to ear.
I never was especially fond of old Norman, but right now I'm his bloody groupie!

it makes me feel bad for Menace.

[greenshoes713]

I can't wait for the Moonstone/Sampson rematch go Moonstone!

[Expletive Deleted]

I've moved the largely off-topic discussion about the Initiative and whatnot to its own thread, here (http://forums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?t=221829).

Carry on.

[Jack]

Frankly, this is the craziest GG's ever been. His insanity is usually completely rational. It's usually just that he's incredibly anti-social. But this... this would have freaked out the Joker. This was over the top to the extreme. Now, this is maybe how GG should always be, and have been, but he wasn't. For continuity purposes, I'll chalk it up to the personae being forced to remain dormant for so long due due to the meds, but at the end of the day, screw it. Awesome writing trumps continuity.
Didn't he become this crazy in the Gathering of Five storyline or whatever? And since then he's just been medicated to be somewhere approaching normal for him?

I haven't read it, but I think he got the gift of madness or something and then there was an issue which was just entirely his hallucination.

[rZi]

I sure am going to miss Ellis and Deodato on this title...they can do no wrong in my eyes.

Another great solid issue, in both art and writing. I did think it was moving a little slowly as of late but i can now see the bigger picture and how ellis has moved the peices into place for his conclusion.

[blehbeh]

I'm really curious to see how the Thunderbolts are going to come out of this storyline intact and be part of Secret Invasion. Is Norman really going to be allowed to lead the T-Bolts after this? Is Swordsman going to be back on the team? In SI #1, they were there when Captain Marvel burst into the mountain like everything was normal as can be. Is it going to be obvious that this arc takes place AFTER Secret Invasion? Or are they going to pull an Astonishing X-Men, and not even bother to have any semblance of continuity? Guess we'll see.

[jackolover]

Didn't he become this crazy in the Gathering of Five storyline or whatever? And since then he's just been medicated to be somewhere approaching normal for him?

I haven't read it, but I think he got the gift of madness or something and then there was an issue which was just entirely his hallucination.

Yeah, that's about the gist of it. If Maddy, the 4th Spiderwoman still exists in the Loners book, then Osborns madness should still exist as well. But who knows what Marvel retcons out of the books?

[Decepticons_Rule]

I REALLY want to see this version of Osborne get his hands on Spider-man. Like, RIGHT NOW.

And I think that when Penance comes back as Speedball full-time and as a hero again, he will take down Osborne.

[HulkSmash666]

I've only seen the preview pages so far, and from what I've seen and read on here, this could be the best showing Goblin's had in years.

Does anyone know of a Green Goblin respect thread? I'd really like to see some of Goblin's top showings and feats.

For that matter, does any of Spidey's villains have a respect thread?

I know Venom and Carnage have one, and even Rhino has a DISrespect thread, but I can't find any on the Goblin's or guys like Vulture, Electro, Dr Octopus, Lizard etc.

Can anyone help me out here?

[Magneto Rocks]

Does anyone know of a Green Goblin respect thread?

This is pretty much it. ;)


I'd really like to see some of Goblin's top showings and feats.

This issue's THE top showing. Everything else pales. ;)


Can anyone help me out here?

On a serious note, I'm not sure CBR has a Goblin respect thread. Which is in itself an outrage!

[Lombardo!]

The actual British term is " complete dog's dinner", but it's close enough. Just to clarify, yes, I am a Brit.:smile:

Here in Australia we use Dog's Breakfast, (meaning complete mess of things), like Norman's context.

[agrich]

Does anyone know of a Green Goblin respect thread? I'd really like to see some of Goblin's top showings and feats.


This was always one of my favorites as a kid.....

http://images.comiccollectorlive.com/B3D6F3D6-B060-4D83-AF7C-563532554933/78C903D6-FC6D-4774-94CA-3FCB3E2D4CAE/39410302-9FFA-48B8-977D-EA70DCD5C131.jpg