2008 U.S. Presidential Election Mega thread

[KevinTBrown]

Well, I'm fine with that!

Now ... in a previous post, you stated that Carter was cut off at the knees by the Republican Party. Could you please state which Republicans during Carter's term did that, how they did it, and when? Thanks!

Still waiting I see.....

[LtMarvel]

No! Don't anybody help him.

Briareos, please tell the rest of the class why you think Obama is a racist.

[Infra-Man]

Still waiting I see.....

An old friend of mine used to say (paraphrased) "Opinions are like assholes, right? Well, not informed opinions, which are actually worth a damn. But if someone states an opinion without backing it up with some facts, all that person's got is another asshole."

It was better when he said it.

[KevinTBrown]

Gas prices going to hurt McCain?

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0608/10953.html



Well, the fact is, no way will ANY President be able to immediately lower the gas prices... However, I think Obama will do all he can do, while McCain will shrug his shoulders over it.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Maybe you should buy a sheet and a pointy hood?

Okay, this one wasn't pointed to me, but it has earned Rick a place on my ignore list.

You ought to be better than that.

[Buzz Dixon]

An old friend of mine used to say (paraphrased) "Opinions are like assholes, right?The quote I use is, "Opinions are like skidmarks: Every asshole's got one."

[Cam63]

can you understand these words on your screen?

Quit your bitchin.

That was uncalled for, Sec'.

[Crowley]

Okay, this one wasn't pointed to me, but it has earned Rick a place on my ignore list.

You ought to be better than that.

um have you read some of Bri and Sam's statements? Or throughout the Gay Marriage thread?

Rick's not too far off the mark.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

um have you read some of Bri and Sam's statements? Or throughout the Gay Marriage thread?

Rick's not too far off the mark.

One can disagree.... even greatly so, and still do it with respect and dignity.

Not that, like, I'm the model of restraint, but this was beyond the pale.

[FalconX2000]

A recent headline from The Detroit News newspaper confused Obama with Osama. However, the one who was hurt most by the mistake wasn't the Illinois Senator:

Clinton, Osama meet to discuss unity.





lol.:biggrin:

[Cam63]

Bri does stick his chin out time and time again.

...and he needs to loosen the strap on his helmet a few inches.

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Bri does stick his chin out time and time again.

...and he needs to loosen the strap on his helmet a few inches.

To be honest, Cam, I don't generally follows his posts.

But the KKK is an evil domestic terrorist group, predicated on a history of the most vile murders and lynchings. And even someone saying something ignorant deserves better than that comparison.

[Crowley]

To be honest, Cam, I don't generally follows his posts.

But the KKK is an evil domestic terrorist group, predicated on a history of the most vile murders and lynchings. And even someone saying something ignorant deserves better than that comparison.

Maxine,

I mean this with all due respect... but how do you always take everything so literally, when up this thread you were making comparisons to Joe McCarthy?

It's hyperbole on both ends.

But you know Jeff W. Kramer made a good point that Bri and Sam might be nice guys, but they are in fact... bigots.

[Major Comma]

Even if we may strongly disagree with Bri and Sam we dont have the right to judge them to be bigots.
We cant know what is their hearts simply by reading their posts.
and calling them bigots starts more fires then it puts out .

[rick]

Okay, this one wasn't pointed to me, but it has earned Rick a place on my ignore list.

You ought to be better than that.


Yes, because calling out someone when they are being a little racist twit is just sooo out of line around here.

Maxine, you really have gone over to the dark side haven't you?

[rick]

Even if we may strongly disagree with Bri and Sam we dont have the right to judge them to be bigots.
We cant know what is their hearts simply by reading their posts.
and calling them bigots starts more fires then it puts out .


That statement is ridiculous right on the surface.

Of course we have every right to judge for ourselves weather Bri or Sam or anyone else is a bigot or a racist.

Having said that though, I should quickly point out that despite several claims to the contrary by other posters, I have never once seen Sam write or act in any way like a racist.

There are plenty of things I don’t agree with the man about, but he is a class warrior not a race one.

Bri on the other hand is pretty much just a seething little cauldron of fear, hatred, bigotry and psychosis and I don’t really have any problem poking him about it.

Also it’s more than just a little bit silly to object to my suggestion that Bri might be a bigot when you stop and consider some of the names they get called by some of the other posters on other occasions that nobody even blinks over.

[GozertheGozarian]

Sam's had multiple rants on Muslims, Hispanics, and gays. He's openly shown his bigotry.

[section 8]

I leave long enough to earn my pay and what do i see upon my return?

My, my, so many slings and arrows to adress, kinda seems familiar
http://www.cine-collector.com/catalog/images/scar4.jpg

Sabrina to flog a horse that is, if not dead in servere danger of expiring. They gave Carter the rope needed to hang himself, to go any further into the subject would invite a debate on the existance of "smoke filled rooms" and i hardly know you well enough for hat.

somehow i dont think thats going to stop you..

.Oh, and to answer your next question, Maybe it is paranoid, but that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

TCJohnson, I had originally planned to deleate that part of the post, but a little paranoid voice told me to "white it out" to see how desparately my posts were being disected.
I never called the thread a "special Ed. class, i said i felt as though i was adressing one, as what i was saying was NOT being heard. I suppose i could have said something about speaking a forign language, but you'd, in all likelyhood be calling me a racist right now if i had.

Kevin, have you made a single constructive post on this thread, or has it all been biased newslinks, and smug remarks about other peoples posts? I simply must know.

Cam & Pip, i admit my post to Pip was blunt, but i had already confessed my inability to type, i'm not sure what more these people want from me, but kicking me while i'm down over something ive already admited was a shortcoming? THAT is uncalled for.

Infra-Man I have a couple of sayings of my own.
"Opinions are like asshole, and you seem too interested in mine. Mind your own if you have one"
and
"opinions are like asshole, yours is fucked"

well i have an early start in the AM so i'll only be around for the next few minutes

[rick]

Sam's had multiple rants on Muslims, Hispanics, and gays. He's openly shown his bigotry.

Not meaning to turn this into a big defense of Sam, who has more than enough irritating factors, but, while I have seen him knock politics, special interest groups, affirmative action, gay marriage, “America’s Enemies”, liberal social reform and the Pope, I have never once got the vibe that he is coming from anything but a social and political position.

As far as I can tell the only time race factors into Sam’s views is when it is used in Sam’s opinion as a crutch or an excuse for special treatment.

And that’s class warfare, not racial.

Maybe I’m putting him on one side of a very thin line, but it is the side I do believe he is actually on.

[TCJohnson]

TCJohnson, I had originally planned to deleate that part of the post, but a little paranoid voice told me to "white it out" to see how desparately my posts were being disected.
I never called the thread a "special Ed. class, i said i felt as though i was adressing one, as what i was saying was NOT being heard. I suppose i could have said something about speaking a forign language, but you'd, in all likelyhood be calling me a racist right now if i had.


Why? Have you made any racist statements? You insulted people on this board, I called you on it. Simple as that.

[Sabrinaset]

Sabrina to flog a horse that is, if not dead in servere danger of expiring. They gave Carter the rope needed to hang himself, to go any further into the subject would invite a debate on the existance of "smoke filled rooms" and i hardly know you well enough for hat.

All I needed from you was for you to clarify your statement with names and facts. You know, back up your opinion. Prove it's actually correct instead of say, just being a mindless rant. You have no names and no facts, merely insubstantial nameless ghosts in smoke-filled rooms, and knowing that that is all you have is good enough for me. "They" "Giving Carter the rope to hang himself" however, does not equal "Cut him off at the knees." But knowing that you don't know what you're talking about is answer enough, and I'm dropping it.

[rick]

All I needed from you was for you to clarify your statement with names and facts. You know, back up your opinion. Prove it's actually correct instead of say, just being a mindless rant. You have no names and no facts, merely insubstantial nameless ghosts in smoke-filled rooms, and knowing that that is all you have is good enough for me. "They" "Giving Carter the rope to hang himself" however, does not equal "Cut him off at the knees." But knowing that you don't know what you're talking about is answer enough, and I'm dropping it.


To be fair, of course Carter had organized political opposition to most of his policies by the Republican Party, and of course whenever possible, as the opposing party, the Republicans gave Carter as little support as possible.

However in some cases, like in the Panama Canal treaty, Carter could actually pull a good third of the Republican vote, so it wasn’t like they were refusing to work with the man.

As much as I like to blame the Republicans for every bad thing and sin since Eve met the snake, President Carter’s own worst enemy was President Carter.

Well, himself and the Ayatollah Khomeini anyway.

[section 8]

All I needed from you was for you to clarify your statement with names and facts. You know, back up your opinion. Prove it's actually correct instead of say, just being a mindless rant. You have no names and no facts, merely insubstantial nameless ghosts in smoke-filled rooms, and knowing that that is all you have is good enough for me. "They" "Giving Carter the rope to hang himself" however, does not equal "Cut him off at the knees." But knowing that you don't know what you're talking about is answer enough, and I'm dropping it.

heh heh

I just made ten bucks from my roomate. thanks, Sabs

[Crowley]

I leave long enough to earn my pay and what do i see upon my return?

My, my, so many slings and arrows to adress, kinda seems familiar
http://www.cine-collector.com/catalog/images/scar4.jpg

Sabrina to flog a horse that is, if not dead in servere danger of expiring. They gave Carter the rope needed to hang himself, to go any further into the subject would invite a debate on the existance of "smoke filled rooms" and i hardly know you well enough for hat.

somehow i dont think thats going to stop you..

.Oh, and to answer your next question, Maybe it is paranoid, but that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

TCJohnson, I had originally planned to deleate that part of the post, but a little paranoid voice told me to "white it out" to see how desparately my posts were being disected.
I never called the thread a "special Ed. class, i said i felt as though i was adressing one, as what i was saying was NOT being heard. I suppose i could have said something about speaking a forign language, but you'd, in all likelyhood be calling me a racist right now if i had.

Kevin, have you made a single constructive post on this thread, or has it all been biased newslinks, and smug remarks about other peoples posts? I simply must know.

Cam & Pip, i admit my post to Pip was blunt, but i had already confessed my inability to type, i'm not sure what more these people want from me, but kicking me while i'm down over something ive already admited was a shortcoming? THAT is uncalled for.

Infra-Man I have a couple of sayings of my own.
"Opinions are like asshole, and you seem too interested in mine. Mind your own if you have one"
and
"opinions are like asshole, yours is fucked"

well i have an early start in the AM so i'll only be around for the next few minutes

you know what? You've been tossing around a shitload of aggression and insults and it's gotten really fucking old and people here are calling you out on your behavior.

So you can learn and grow up or click log out at the top right hand corner of the screen.

I said it before... you seem like a bright guy who can contribute... but you've got a lot of shit to work out in your head and a constant need for attention.

Well I'm done... hopefully I'll be convinced to take you off ignore again but for the time being you're back on it.

[section 8]

Why? Have you made any racist statements? You insulted people on this board, I called you on it. Simple as that.

huh. Where was the insult? i never called anyone anything.
remember i was responding to GAIL SIMONE for christ sakes, trust me if i were trying to be insulting with that post i would not be here.

[Crowley]

Don't sweat him guys... there is an ignore feature.

Unfortunately I don't think he's going to last long... he's pretty much a contrarien troll like TalonTm, MWM1131, WatsonGlenn and others we had in the past.

[section 8]

i disagree with you so therefore i must be a troll huh?

[Sabrinaset]

To be fair, of course Carter had organized political opposition to most of his policies by the Republican Party, and of course whenever possible, as the opposing party, the Republicans gave Carter as little support as possible.

However in some cases, like in the Panama Canal treaty, Carter could actually pull a good third of the Republican vote, so it wasn’t like they were refusing to work with the man.

As much as I like to blame the Republicans for every bad thing and sin since Eve met the snake, President Carter’s own worst enemy was President Carter.

Well, himself and the Ayatollah Khomeini anyway.

The thing is, he had Tip O'Neill exasperated with the way he was dealing with Congress. Heck, he called congressional tax committees "Ravenous wolves" once ... not a good way to deal with Congress. And considering the 95th Congress was 39 Republicans to 61 Democrats, and the House was 143 Reps to 292 Dems, it's not like any Republican COULD do anything to Carter anyway. You're right, though. What cut Carter off at the knees was that "Republican" ... Jimmy Carter. Well, not counting the Ghost Republicans running about in the fog and twirling their handlebar moustaces, I guess! :biggrin:

[Sabrinaset]

heh heh

I just made ten bucks from my roomate. thanks, Sabs

Not a problem. Capitalism RULES!

[section 8]

Not a problem. Capitalism RULES!

indeed it does, but since i owe him close to 500 it's barely a dent.

on that note, i have a double-shift tomorrow, and i need my rest

[Paul McEnery]

One can disagree.... even greatly so, and still do it with respect and dignity.

Not that, like, I'm the model of restraint, but this was beyond the pale.

Oh I don't know.

Bri's found every racist attack on the Obama campaign, and posted it.

[Paul McEnery]

Not meaning to turn this into a big defense of Sam, who has more than enough irritating factors, but, while I have seen him knock politics, special interest groups, affirmative action, gay marriage, “America’s Enemies”, liberal social reform and the Pope, I have never once got the vibe that he is coming from anything but a social and political position.

As far as I can tell the only time race factors into Sam’s views is when it is used in Sam’s opinion as a crutch or an excuse for special treatment.

And that’s class warfare, not racial.

Maybe I’m putting him on one side of a very thin line, but it is the side I do believe he is actually on.

What, in the sense that the far right don't actually hate blacks, muslims, immigrants, gays, women and everyone else, they just don't mind hurting them, or whipping up bigotry against them if it advances their cause.

Distinction without a difference, if you ask me.

[rick]

What, in the sense that the far right don't actually hate blacks, muslims, immigrants, gays, women and everyone else, they just don't mind hurting them, or whipping up bigotry against them if it advances their cause.

Distinction without a difference, if you ask me.


Well, like I said, it's a very thin line.

[Sabrinaset]

indeed it does, but since i owe him close to 500 it's barely a dent.

on that note, i have a double-shift tomorrow, and i need my rest

That you do. You have many more ill-reasoned, neuron-scalding, illiterate posts to write come the dawn, and I'd hate to see what they might look like if you DON'T get any rest!

You know what ... Crowley is right. I mean, it's just too easy to make fun of you, and honestly, you just don't add anything to YABS. I'm putting you on ignore as well, and I'm politely asking everyone to just stop quoting Section 8 as a favor to me so that I don't have to see this guys posts anymore. Come on, what kinda pathetic insult is "I made a bet on you, Bree, I made ten bucks!" That's kinda ... I dunno, sophomoric. I mean, geez ... Crowley and I are on opposite poles politically, and when we agree on something, it's gotta be right.

We both agree you're a troll who can't spell.

Bye! :smile:

[Paul McEnery]

Well, like I said, it's a very thin line.

To clarify, it seems to me that you're mixing up racism and racialism, where racialism is thinking that there are innate differences between the races, and racism is acting out of prejudice.

Whipping up racial hatred is a racist act by definition. Whether it's based in ideological racialism is beside the point.

[Paul McEnery]

i disagree with you so therefore i must be a troll huh?

It's all about your attitude, section. Surely you can figure that out.

Chill out with the attitude, and it's all good.

[Nick Soapdish]

The funny thing is, she was part of "Vote or Die" ... and didn't even register to vote herself! http://www.msnpro.com/emoticons/hellokitty/giggle.gif

And that's the tragedy of it all.

Well before Katrina, Gore, etc. it was more of a "bone" issue to show informed youth voters how much they "cared". While it is a real important issue now, I still have a feeling it still will be a "bone" issue.

It was a real important issue then as well. Or maybe, I'm arguing that the environment should've been a real important issue. But ignoring it and underplaying it as long as we have (once the initial successes back in the late '60s and early '70s came through) is why it's becoming such a problem again.

[section 8]

It's all about your attitude, section. Surely you can figure that out.

Chill out with the attitude, and it's all good.

In that case i'll dial it back a bit
but there is a difference between starting an arguement and not backing down from one. Of the latter i admit i am guitlty, but scroll back and see for yourself who drew first blood.

Nor did i push the issue, i tried more than twice to steer the thread back on topic, whlie others insisted on turning it into a bad Jerry Springer episode.

[section 8]

That you do. You have many more ill-reasoned, neuron-scalding, illiterate posts to write come the dawn, and I'd hate to see what they might look like if you DON'T get any rest!


You know what ... Crowley is right. I mean, it's just too easy to make fun of you, and honestly, you just don't add anything to YABS.:
and here i thought we were starting to get past this, Oh well, sticks and stones Sabs but if we are here to "make fun" of one another then you are correct i add nothing
I'm putting you on ignore as well, and I'm politely asking everyone to just stop quoting Section 8 as a favor to me so that I don't have to see this guys posts anymore. Come on, what kinda pathetic insult is "I made a bet on you, Bree, I made ten bucks!" That's kinda ... I dunno, sophomoric
oh i didnt mean it as an insult per se'
and how did you go from childish name calling to questioning MY maturity?

. I mean, geez ... Crowley and I are on opposite poles politically, and when we agree on something, it's gotta be right. :

well i do pride myself on being "middle of the road" politically so i'm bound to dis agree with both extreames.
so i guess i'm stuck in the middle between madness and lunacy
We both agree you're a troll who can't spell.

Bye! :smile:
for having an unpopular view, limited exp. with cpu.s no spell check, and a case of dyslexia?

[section 8]

Don't sweat him guys... there is an ignore feature.

Unfortunately I don't think he's going to last long... he's pretty much a contrarien troll like TalonTm, MWM1131, WatsonGlenn and others we had in the past.

you've been flip-flopping on how long i will "last" for a while.
for Example


Which by the way... sometimes you're very insightful and clever,.


I took you off (my ignore list) when you posted intelligently in some other threads.

And so, NOW i'm a troll?

I wonder what you will call me next week.

[Paul McEnery]

In that case i'll dial it back a bit
but there is a difference between starting an arguement and not backing down from one. Of the latter i admit i am guitlty, but scroll back and see for yourself who drew first blood.
.

Yeah, but at the end of the day, who started it doesn't matter, does it.

We've all lost our tempers or gotten too aggressive. Me more than most, really. And it just never works.

Most people here go back a few years. But even knowing each other pretty well, we still miscommunicate and cause bad feelings.

You haven't been around here very long, so any bad feelings you cause count a whole lot more.

So yeah, you might want to dial it back quite a bit till you've figured the place out a bit better, and settle in a bit more.

Good luck with that, btw. :smile:

[section 8]

Thanks.
It was never my intention to be combative. That said, if someone slaps me i'm gonna slap them back (metaphore)that's who i am thats where i come from.

i'd rather have a mature conversation, but i will not take being slandered or insulted lying down like some punk.

I did not enter this thread calling people names like "Trolls " or commenting on their spelling.
and i see no reason why i should tolerate the same. Maybe i'm wrong, but i hardly think being "new" means i should have to.

[Samurai]

That statement is ridiculous right on the surface.

Of course we have every right to judge for ourselves weather Bri or Sam or anyone else is a bigot or a racist.

Having said that though, I should quickly point out that despite several claims to the contrary by other posters, I have never once seen Sam write or act in any way like a racist.

There are plenty of things I don’t agree with the man about, but he is a class warrior not a race one.

Bri on the other hand is pretty much just a seething little cauldron of fear, hatred, bigotry and psychosis and I don’t really have any problem poking him about it.

Also it’s more than just a little bit silly to object to my suggestion that Bri might be a bigot when you stop and consider some of the names they get called by some of the other posters on other occasions that nobody even blinks over.

Not meaning to turn this into a big defense of Sam, who has more than enough irritating factors, but, while I have seen him knock politics, special interest groups, affirmative action, gay marriage, “America’s Enemies”, liberal social reform and the Pope, I have never once got the vibe that he is coming from anything but a social and political position.

As far as I can tell the only time race factors into Sam’s views is when it is used in Sam’s opinion as a crutch or an excuse for special treatment.

And that’s class warfare, not racial.

Maybe I’m putting him on one side of a very thin line, but it is the side I do believe he is actually on.

Thanks Rick. I don't know why you've been so angry these last few days, especially since "your guy" won the primary... you should be happy! But I knew the real you was lurking down there somewhere. (Just tell Paul to stop posting under your account, it's confusing! :) )

But you still aren't correct when you say it's about class warfare... it most definitely is not, for me. I was born and raised in a small town, the son of a refugee who came to this country with only what he could carry or wear on his back, leaving everything (including half his family) behind for the chance to live in freedom. I grew up quite poor. We never took vacations, never had fancy stuff, never ate at expensive restaurants or wore designer clothes. We got new clothes twice a year: Christmas and before the new school year started. We had 1 car for the entire time I was growing up, a Datsun station wagon that eventually had well over 200,000 miles on it. We couldn't afford health insurance, and we often had to scrimp and save to pay bills or the house payment.

Even today, I live in a small apartment, drive a 12 year old Ford, get my clothes from Walmart, and buy everything I can on sale. I'm not rich, I've never been rich, and I feel totally out of place the few times I've associated with truly wealthy folks. (I've had dinner at the Japanese Consulate General's mansion in San Fransisco several times because I'm a former JET who still volunteers to help new JETs going to Japan). I get along best with down-to-earth good country folk who like a backyard BBQed steak instead of haute French cuisine. And such down-to-earth ordinary folks can be found in every race, creed, and color.

I believe as I do not because of class warfare, or some sense that I'm better than them, or poor people suck, or what have you, but because I believe in morals, values, and doing what's right. Millions of immigrants want to come to the US for a better life? Fine, follow the law (which lets in over a million immigrants each year, far more than most other countries) and I'll welcome you with open arms. But break the law, sneak in, steal someone's Soc Sec # to get a job, and I say don't let the door hit you on the way out. There is nothing racist about that, I'll say the same to a British guy who snuck in or overstayed his visa as I would to anyone else. And there's nothing related to class warfare either, since I sympathize with them wanting a better life, and many are the very kinds of ordinary folks I like best, but THAT DOESN'T EXCUSE BREAKING THE LAW. There's a right way and a wrong way to do it. I obeyed the Japanese immigration laws when I was there (including registering my address with the local police and govt office and renewed my visa when it was set to expire, despite a 90 minute trip to the 1 government office that could do it, paying the fees, etc) Maybe I didn't like doing all that, but I was a guest in their country and it was my duty to follow their laws while I was there. Really, is it too much to ask the same of guests to my own country, especially since well over a million people manage to do it legally each year?

[Samurai]

you've been flip-flopping on how long i will "last" for a while.
for Example





And so, NOW i'm a troll?

I wonder what you will call me next week.
I've already put my money on "racist and bigot".

Not that you deserve it at all, but some folks have so little imagination, it's almost inevitable.

[section 8]

I've already put my money on "racist and bigot".

Not that you deserve it at all, but some folks have so little imagination, it's almost inevitable.

Good pointSam, but in order to be racist you have to first have a race, i technically do not. (pure-bred Mutt)


he'd be better off calling me "self destructive" as i have Pnumonia and am smoking a Kool right now.

for the record, Samurai and i have disagreed in the past, but not once did we flat-out argue over anything.

[Paul McEnery]

Thanks.
It was never my intention to be combative. That said, if someone slaps me i'm gonna slap them back (metaphore)that's who i am thats where i come from.

i'd rather have a mature conversation, but i will not take being slandered or insulted lying down like some punk.

I did not enter this thread calling people names like "Trolls " or commenting on their spelling.
and i see no reason why i should tolerate the same. Maybe i'm wrong, but i hardly think being "new" means i should have to.

Let's take this to PM for a bit, where certain people who really do troll up the place something rotten don't have a chance to stick their nose in.

[the4thpip]

In the two daily tracking polls for the general election, Gallup and Rasmussen, Barack Obama has shown significant, upward movement since he clinched the nomination on June 3rd. Here are the current standings in these two polls, with the immediate, pre-June 3rd results in parenthesis:

Gallup
Obama: 48% (45%)
McCain: 42% (46%)

Rasmussen
Obama: 50% (46%)
McCain: 44% (46%)

With only a 2% margin of error in each poll, both of these results are statistically significant. What's more, Obama appears to be rising even faster following Hillary Clinton's concession speech on Saturday than he rose from Wednesday through Friday. Since Clinton's speech, despite only a two-day sample, Obama has gained 5% relative to McCain in Gallup, and 3% relative to McCain in Rasmussen.

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6255

[Samurai]

http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=6255

post nomination win bounce... it'll wear off.

[the4thpip]

post nomination win bounce... it'll wear off.

Or gain mobamamentum.

Might well be the only reason McCain had been holding up as well as he did was that the dems were still busy with their primaries.

[Infra-Man]

Infra-Man I have a couple of sayings of my own.
"Opinions are like asshole, and you seem too interested in mine. Mind your own if you have one"
and
"opinions are like asshole, yours is fucked"

But section, do you see the larger point I was getting at? People should have informed opinions and those informed opinions should be built on the granite of some facts if we are ever to take seriously or consider those opinions. Asking someone to cite facts is simply to ask for clarification as to how one arrived at his or her opinion.

EDIT:
I'd add that opinions based on faulty information or unsound facts are as useful as a third nipple, and really should be excised rather than kept.

[Infra-Man]

post nomination win bounce... it'll wear off.

It's too early to tell whether or not it will wear off. Chances are, if and when Obama has consolidated the support of all Democrats (i.e., Clinton supporters), the numbers will rise.

Even George Will noted that Obama has potential to gain a greater lead when, among other things, voters who have not followed the primaries are informed that Obama is not a Muslim and McCain is pro-life.

I think the numbers after the first Obama/McCain debate will be extremely important to watch. There are a lot of states in play this election and the potential for a landslide is there depending on how the campaigns play their strategies with the battleground states.

I heard Obama is playing a fifty-state strategy, which worked for the mid-term election in 2006. It's to his advantage given his fundraising power and his campaign's ability to organize/mobilize volunteers. I don't know what strategy McCain is using, though it might be a key-state strategy to go for the traditional biggies of Florida, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Michigan. If Obama runs his fifty-state strategy and puts resources into each state and campaigns in each state, this may force McCain to spend more than he intends in states that he assumed were gimmes.

[the4thpip]

I don't know what strategy McCain is using,

I think he will start with "be afraid" and if that doesn't work, he'll switch to "be very afraid."

[Agent Helix]

Ah, the Geena Davis Gambit.

[KenK]

Ah, the Geena Davis Gambit.

Hey, even she got a chance to be Command-In-Chief, so she can't be all wrong! :biggrin:

[Mr.EZ]

Hey, even she got a chance to be Command-In-Chief, so she can't be all wrong! :biggrin:

She's a member of Mensa and is an Olympic level archer. That's badass.

[Infra-Man]

I think he will start with "be afraid" and if that doesn't work, he'll switch to "be very afraid."

But if "be very afraid" doesn't work, does he then turn to "Boo! A-booga, booga, booga, booga, booga!"?

[Pink Bat Maxine]

Not a problem. Capitalism RULES!

This displeases my masters in the Kremlin. Um. Circa 1957.

[KevinTBrown]

IKevin, have you made a single constructive post on this thread, or has it all been biased newslinks, and smug remarks about other peoples posts? I simply must know.

You mean other than starting this thread? Requesting that it be unmoderated in order for people to call out other people, like yourself, when they're dead fucking wrong on the issues or facts?

And what biased newslinks are you talking about? Which ones specifically? I generally post Yahoo, Politico, or (very rarely) sites such as CNN....

And just when are you planning on replying to Bree about this? Ignoring it won't make it go away nor will people forget. But let me help you see it a bit better...
Well, I'm fine with that!

Now ... in a previous post, you stated that Carter was cut off at the knees by the Republican Party. Could you please state which Republicans during Carter's term did that, how they did it, and when? Thanks!

Finally, interesting you now say you don't have a race when you made it a point in another thread, in order to take me to task, about how you're an American Indian..... (I may be wrong, and someone can look for that post if they want.)

Good pointSam, but in order to be racist you have to first have a race, i technically do not. (pure-bred Mutt)


he'd be better off calling me "self destructive" as i have Pnumonia and am smoking a Kool right now.

for the record, Samurai and i have disagreed in the past, but not once did we flat-out argue over anything.


Overall, I don't think you're a troll, you're just misinformed and like to appear smarter, in terms of politics, than you really are.... and people on here have caught on and you're seeing what happens.

[Michael P]

I think he will start with "be afraid" and if that doesn't work, he'll switch to "be very afraid."

Well, the GOP in general has already geared up 2/3 of the strategy that served them well last time. "The fears" and "the smears" are already out of the gate. We'll see if they bring out "the queers" if things don't go well for them this summer.

[Paul McEnery]

Well, the GOP in general has already geared up 2/3 of the strategy that served them well last time. "The fears" and "the smears" are already out of the gate. We'll see if they bring out "the queers" if things don't go well for them this summer.

It'll be tears.

[Charles RB]

While the Democrats celebrate with beers.

[KevinTBrown]

While the Democrats celebrate with beers.
....and cheers.

[Corrina]

Especially since McCain says he will veto beers. :)

[K-DoG7p7]

has Fox News issued an appology for that "Terrorist Jab" thingy?

[K-DoG7p7]

Especially since McCain says he will veto beers. :)

BEARS?? veto to save them or kill them?
if kill them then Colber(t) will be very happy!

ohh beers... never mind..

[KevinTBrown]

has Fox News issued an appology for that "Terrorist Jab" thingy?
Just as soon as the sun sets in the east.

[TCJohnson]

has Fox News issued an appology for that "Terrorist Jab" thingy?

Which terrorist jab thing is this?

[K-DoG7p7]

http://mediamatters.org/items/200806060007

[Infra-Man]

has Fox News issued an appology for that "Terrorist Jab" thingy?

I always wondered about The Wonder Twins.

[KevinTBrown]

I always wondered about The Wonder Twins.
Gleek is the mastermind actually...

[KevinTBrown]

Good pointSam, but in order to be racist you have to first have a race, i technically do not. (pure-bred Mutt)


he'd be better off calling me "self destructive" as i have Pnumonia and am smoking a Kool right now.

for the record, Samurai and i have disagreed in the past, but not once did we flat-out argue over anything.

Finally, interesting you now say you don't have a race when you made it a point in another thread, in order to take me to task, about how you're an American Indian..... (I may be wrong, and someone can look for that post if they want.)

I found the post I was talking about:

go make your own, then. title it as you see fit.

this is an interesting point, i'm assuming that he's refering to "Indian" rather than "native american" i will explain the popular view of this in my tribe/ fam/ area/ect.

comming from a people who suffered attempted genocide, survived oppression, and to this a day are a minorities among minorities, if you have the luxuary of time to complain that a name that isn't a slur, but isn't pc. then life had indeed been good to you.

the term "indian" is not derogitry to us, the cintrary it reminds the world that america was "Discovered" by a lost white dude.. think about it who's really being called what when i say "indian"

the idea of adding words to a term to make it socially acceptible is something shared only by the most "white minded" of indians ( aka uncle Tantos) shit does chapelle get this kinda flack for saying "black"?

So, what are you, a member of a tribe or a mutt?


:rolleyes:

[Infra-Man]

Gleek is the mastermind actually...

Evil Gleek... terrorist Wonder Twins...

I think we have the plot for DC's next mega event: New Crisis: The Search for More Money

[section 8]

I found the post I was talking about:



So, what are you, a member of a tribe or a mutt?


:rolleyes:
Both, I was raised primarily by my Native American half of the family, and concider (myself as do they and my tribe) an indian. i am on the tribal roll and a memeber off the tribal council. It is the rest of the world (Narrow minded idiots who think "one or the other") that views me as a "half breed".
in truth FBIs *Full Blooded Indians* are quite rare outside of reservations.

i figured you'd know that with a Cherokee Grandfather but i guess i was wrong.

Still working on that constructive post?:rolleyes:

[Infra-Man]

has Fox News issued an appology for that "Terrorist Jab" thingy?

Looks like the the terrorist jabber just got her show punched off the air.

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/fnc/changes_to_fox_news_afternoons_86705.asp

Changes to Fox News Afternoons

TVNewser has learned beginning Monday Live Desk with Martha MacCallum will be expanded to two hours, airing from 1-3pmET. MacCallum will also be getting a co-anchor and a new set. Trace Gallagher joins as co-anchor, while continuing to fill in for Shepard Smith on Studio B and Fox Report. Also starting Monday Live Desk will originate from the FNC newsroom.

America's Pulse anchored by E.D. Hill goes away, but Hill stays with the network in a capacity to be determined. Hill has been with FNC since 1998. She co-anchored Fox & Friends for several years before moving to the 11amET hour, then launching America's Pulse.

Live Desk debuted in September 2006 replacing DaySide, which morphed into Fox network's The Morning Show with Mike and Juliet.

[Mr.EZ]

Especially since McCain says he will veto beers. :)

Doubt that considering beer distribution is where a chunk of his wife's money comes from.

[KevinTBrown]

Both, I was raised primarily by my Native American half of the family, and concider (myself as do they and my tribe) an indian. i am on the tribal roll and a memeber off the tribal council. It is the rest of the world (Narrow minded idiots) that views me as a "half breed".

Still working on that constructive post?

Still working on that answer to Bree?

[section 8]

What did bree ask?

[KevinTBrown]

What did bree ask?
I guess the lettering wasn't big enough after all.....

But, here, I'll do you a favor and repost it for you:


Well, I'm fine with that!

Now ... in a previous post, you stated that Carter was cut off at the knees by the Republican Party. Could you please state which Republicans during Carter's term did that, how they did it, and when? Thanks!

[section 8]

I answered the question

I leave long enough to earn my pay and what do i see upon my return?

My, my, so many slings and arrows to adress, kinda seems familiar
http://www.cine-collector.com/catalog/images/scar4.jpg

Sabrina to flog a horse that is, if not dead in servere danger of expiring. They gave Carter the rope needed to hang himself, to go any further into the subject would invite a debate on the existance of "smoke filled rooms" and i hardly know you well enough for hat.

somehow i dont think thats going to stop you..

.Oh, and to answer your next question, Maybe it is paranoid, but that doesn't automatically make it wrong.

TCJohnson, I had originally planned to deleate that part of the post, but a little paranoid voice told me to "white it out" to see how desparately my posts were being disected.
I never called the thread a "special Ed. class, i said i felt as though i was adressing one, as what i was saying was NOT being heard. I suppose i could have said something about speaking a forign language, but you'd, in all likelyhood be calling me a racist right now if i had.

Kevin, have you made a single constructive post on this thread, or has it all been biased newslinks, and smug remarks about other peoples posts? I simply must know.

Cam & Pip, i admit my post to Pip was blunt, but i had already confessed my inability to type, i'm not sure what more these people want from me, but kicking me while i'm down over something ive already admited was a shortcoming? THAT is uncalled for.

Infra-Man I have a couple of sayings of my own.
"Opinions are like asshole, and you seem too interested in mine. Mind your own if you have one"
and
"opinions are like asshole, yours is fucked"

well i have an early start in the AM so i'll only be around for the next few minutes

You still havent answered mine

[GozertheGozarian]

That looks like you dodging the question, not answering.

[KevinTBrown]

I answered the question



You still havent answered mine

Bullshit you answered it. She specifically asked you to name which Republicans and you said: "Sabrina to flog a horse that is, if not dead in servere danger of expiring. They gave Carter the rope needed to hang himself, to go any further into the subject would invite a debate on the existance of "smoke filled rooms" and i hardly know you well enough for hat.

somehow i dont think thats going to stop you..

.Oh, and to answer your next question, Maybe it is paranoid, but that doesn't automatically make it wrong."

You blew it off. You don't know. You're just afraid to admit it.



And in answer to your question: You ignored that part of my post (about Bree), so you're obviously glossing over things or just blatantly ignoring that which you don't have an answer to.... You're full of hyperbole, but with little substance.

So, once again, you'll probably gloss over this and wonder where that "constructive post" is at.... All the while talking in circles and hoping no one notices.



Edited to add:

Looks like someone DID notice after all.....
That looks like you dodging the question, not answering.

[Paul McEnery]

You're coming down awfully hard on the guy, Kevin.

It'd be one thing if he meant any harm by what he said (like some people I could mention), but it really doesn't look that way from where I'm standing.

[KevinTBrown]

You're coming down awfully hard on the guy, Kevin.

It'd be one thing if he meant any harm by what he said (like some people I could mention), but it really doesn't look that way from where I'm standing.

No harder than some others are, Paul.

[section 8]

No harder than some others are, Paul.

http://www.cine-collector.com/catalog/images/scar4.jpg

:biggrin:
he;s right, at some point a few others turned this into a " quote and assalt section 8" thread. Everyone else is doing it so that makes it ok.

[K-DoG7p7]

Looks like the the terrorist jabber just got her show punched off the air.

http://www.mediabistro.com/tvnewser/fnc/changes_to_fox_news_afternoons_86705.asp

OMG.. I had hoped they fired Martha MacCallum after that "Mass Effect" Controversy.. didn't EA Games sue Fox News after that??

[section 8]

OMG.. I had hoped they fired Martha MacCallum after that "Mass Effect" Controversy.. didn't EA Games sue Fox News after that??

i dont know, but i hope so.
When i saw that BS report i raged at the TV so loud i thought the neighbors would call the cops.

[the4thpip]

has Fox News issued an appology for that "Terrorist Jab" thingy?

I think they apologized to the terrorists.

[section 8]

I think they apologized to the terrorists.

that actualy would not surprise me.

[KevinTBrown]

:biggrin:
he;s right, at some point a few others turned this into a " quote and assalt section 8" thread. Everyone else is doing it so that makes it ok.

Still avoiding answering Bree's question.


But, hey, no biggie......



Anyway, interesting choices for Obama concerning his potential VP: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080610/ap_on_el_pr/obama_veepstakes

[the4thpip]

Anyway, interesting choices for Obama concerning his potential VP: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080610/ap_on_el_pr/obama_veepstakes

He should totally pick Gladys Knight. She's a woman like Hillary, a Mormon like Romney, a Southerner like Huckabee and a triple divorcee like Giuliani. McCain would be so perplexed he would probably pick David Duke for Veep after THAT move.

[Infra-Man]

OMG.. I had hoped they fired Martha MacCallum after that "Mass Effect" Controversy.. didn't EA Games sue Fox News after that??

I don't know about the suit afterwards, but I do remember seeing that clip and just laughing as Cooper Lawrence got totally pwned by the other guest with one simple question: "Have you even played the game?" Really, MacCallum was just in the middle. More ire should be levied at Cooper Lawrence for being totally clueless.

But since the commentators and quite a few guests at Fox News have a tendency to state opinions without facts, ignore facts when the facts don't fit their opinions, and talk about things they have absolutely no idea about, such silliness isn't anything new.

[section 8]

Still avoiding answering Bree's question.


But, hey, no biggie......



Anyway, interesting choices for Obama concerning his potential VP: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080610/ap_on_el_pr/obama_veepstakes

Kevin,
ive been very tolerant of your border-line herassment, but it's realy getting old now.
I'm not putting you on "ignore" (yet) because i think ignoring someone over a mere difference in opinion is a bit extreme.

Please, go pick a fight with someone else. I came in here for a serious discussion, not some online pissing contest.

I'm not putting you on "Ignore" but until you say something construtive i WILL be ignoring you

[K-DoG7p7]

I don't know about the suit afterwards, but I do remember seeing that clip and just laughing as Cooper Lawrence got totally pwned by the other guest with one simple question: "Have you even played the game?" Really, MacCallum was just in the middle. More ire should be levied at Cooper Lawrence for being totally clueless.

But since the commentators and quite a few guests at Fox News have a tendency to state opinions without facts, ignore facts when the facts don't fit their opinions, and talk about things they have absolutely no idea about, such silliness isn't anything new.

Cooper Lawrence was that book lady?

well shes later gone out and defended Mass Effect.. she has later seen someone play it for 1 hour.. :p

[Infra-Man]

Cooper Lawrence was that book lady?

well shes later gone out and defended Mass Effect.. she has later seen someone play it for 1 hour.. :p

She's probably atoning for the fact that she condemned the game on TV and then had to admit she'd never actually played it (as of that moment) and didn't know what she was talking about.

EDIT:
I remember being on a Fark thread where a lot of people were bagging on her and leaving one-star reviews of her book on Amazon. It was epic and pretty darn funny.

[section 8]

I love Fox News' stratagy by the way.
They have like six ivy league educated people of one opinion and one drop-out of the other.

It reminds me of wolves tearing into a wounded deer.

[Infra-Man]

I love Fox News' stratagy by the way.
They have like six ivy league educated people of one opinion and one drop-out of the other.

It reminds me of wolves tearing into a wounded deer.

It reminds me of cowardly people whose own ideas are too weak to stand up to scrutiny. They fear the free exchange of ideas.

EDIT:
I'd also add that a majority of the bloviators on Fox News rely far too much on their own myopic, uninformed opinions, which is why I find the staked-deck method of political hackery on Fox News to be pretty a lame excuse of political discourse.

[section 8]

well if you want to be literal about it. sure

[PatrickG]

He should totally pick Gladys Knight. She's a woman like Hillary, a Mormon like Romney, a Southerner like Huckabee and a triple divorcee like Giuliani. McCain would be so perplexed he would probably pick David Duke for Veep after THAT move.

You should be writing stand-up material. :)

[section 8]

You should be writing stand-up material. :)

no kidding. With Obama's Limited years in office, he is most likely going to pick up a VP canidate with exp. To counter/ Pre-empt any assaults McCain might make regarding experiance
Picking Knight ( for whom i have the utmost respect) would be suicide

[KevinTBrown]

Kevin,
ive been very tolerant of your border-line herassment, but it's realy getting old now.
I'm not putting you on "ignore" (yet) because i think ignoring someone over a mere difference in opinion is a bit extreme.

Please, go pick a fight with someone else. I came in here for a serious discussion, not some online pissing contest.

I'm not putting you on "Ignore" but until you say something construtive i WILL be ignoring you

Just answer Bree's question is all I ask. Seriously, not too hard to do, now is it?

As far as "Obama's Limited years in office", he's had more years in office than George W. Bush did when he was elected President. (11 to 5)

[Sabrinaset]

So, what are you, a member of a tribe or a mutt? :rolleyes:

I thought Section 8 was a Redneck!

as an american (and a redneck) i kinda feel like gloating, seeing as this didn't happen on our watch, and the rest of the world already sees us as ignorant and over-confident.

is that wrong?

You know, Section 8, I'm taking you OFF ignore, because you've gotten too funny now. Also, everyone keeps quoting you, so what's the use?

Look ... I know you DON'T have an answer, but what the heck ... one more time, and only because you said THIS:

Kevin, ive been very tolerant of your border-line herassment, but it's realy getting old now.
I'm not putting you on "ignore" (yet) because i think ignoring someone over a mere difference in opinion is a bit extreme.

Please, go pick a fight with someone else. I came in here for a serious discussion, not some online pissing contest...

This started BECAUSE I wished to have a discussion with you. You threw out a comment about Carter being cut off at the knees by Republicans. I asked you who, when, and what? That would be the beginning of a discussion. You still haven't said, or at least nothing that is an actual answer. You've said something about smoke-filled rooms that I'm not ready to hear about, and stuff about the Republicans handing him rope to hang himself with ... but even then, that still sounds like Carter was his own worst enemy if he was hanging himself, and NOT like they were cutting him off at the knees.

But okay ... let's make this VERY simple for you. One more time, and just to make it easy for you, I'll make it multiple choice:

Section 8: You have said Carter was "Cut off at the knees" by the Republicans during his term.

A) He was cut off by the Republicans named __________________________

during this time __________________________

when they did this: _______________________________________________

or B) I, Section 8, cannot explain my comment. I admit it. I was wrong.

EDIT TO ADD: You know what? Based on your previous (non) responses, I think the answer is going to be C) ... Section 8 simply won't answer the question at all, or attempt to slide past it. And you know what? That's fine with me too, I'm not going to stress about it. But in that case, please spare us the "I just want to have a decent mature conversation around here," whine, because your actions have proved otherwise.

And if you can't handle it, what else can I say? I'm just saying what i feel, not to do so would be disrespectful you, as it would imply that you need to be handled with kid gloves, and cannot deal with a candid discussion

You're coming down awfully hard on the guy, Kevin.

It'd be one thing if he meant any harm by what he said (like some people I could mention), but it really doesn't look that way from where I'm standing.

See, here's the thing Paul: I remember three years ago I tossed out some random comment, and had half the board asking me to prove what I said, whatever it was. I think you were one of the people asking for proof, BTW. You know what? I was wrong, and had to admit it. I'm vaguely remembering PBM (Or Dazz, or someone else) admitting to not being able to back up a statement on this thread, and guess what? They owned up to it. Heck, we can barely get Section to remember I even asked a question in the first place. It's not a question of harm, it's a question of him 1) backing up his statement, 2) saying he wants a conversation when he can't follow up a question in the first place, and 3) him getting pissy when he's called out on his errors. And that's not even getting into the fact that I can barely understand his posts, not because of the spelling errors ... although they are considerable, but because they're just random. I really DID think he was drunk several pages back. And I don't really care about typos, especially when I make so many myself, but when it's getting to the point where I'm finding it REALLY difficult to understand him...*shrugs*

In fact, I have to remind myself that you're the one even bringing this up, since I've seen you hammer the same question over and over again to Sam and Bri many, MANY times. Look, Section made a comment, and he can't or won't back it up, unless you count vague mysterious generalities. Now, if you think he can't handle being called out on it, fine. Just say he needs to be handled with kid gloves, and cannot deal with a candid discussion.

He should totally pick Gladys Knight. She's a woman like Hillary, a Mormon like Romney, a Southerner like Huckabee and a triple divorcee like Giuliani. McCain would be so perplexed he would probably pick David Duke for Veep after THAT move.

I'm telling you ... Kris for Veep! Isn't it about time we had a Latina lesbian socialist ninja in the White House? :tongue:

[PatrickG]

no kidding. With Obama's Limited years in office, he is most likely going to pick up a VP canidate with exp. To counter/ Pre-empt any assaults McCain might make regarding experiance
Picking Knight ( for whom i have the utmost respect) would be suicide

Er. I'm pretty sure Pip was joking.

It was on the order of suggesting that McCain keep Diana Ross in mind for Surgeon General.

[Paul McEnery]

I thought Section 8 was a Redneck!



You know, Section 8, I'm taking you OFF ignore, because you've gotten too funny now. Also, Everyone keeps quoting you, so what's the use?

Look ... I know you DON'T have an answer, but what the heck ... one more time, and only because you said THIS:



This started BECAUSE I wished to have a discussion with you. You threw out a comment about Carter being cut off at the knees by Republicans. I asked you who, when, and what? That would be the beginning of a discussion. You still haven't said, or at least nothing that is an actual answer. You've said something about smoke-filled rooms that I'm not ready to hear about, and stuff about the Republicans handing him rope to hang himself with ... but even then, that still sounds like Carter was his own worst enemy if he was hanging himself, and NOT like they were cutting him off at the knees.

But okay ... let's make this VERY simple for you. One more time, and just to make it easy for you, I'll make it multiple choice:

Section 8: You have said Carter was "Cut off at the knees" by the Republicans during his term.

A) He was cut off by the Republicans named __________________________

during this time __________________________

when they did this: _______________________________________________

or B) I, Section 8, cannot explain my comment. I admit it. I was wrong.

And if you can't handle it, what else can I say? I'm just saying what i feel, not to do so would be disrespectful you, as it would imply that you need to be handled with kid gloves, and cannot deal with a candid discussion



See, here's the thing Paul: I remember three years ago I tossed out some random comment, and had half the board asking me to prove what I said, whatever it was. I think you were one of the people asking for proof, BTW. You know what? I was wrong, and had to admit it. I'm vaguely remembering PBM (Or Dazz, or someone else) admitting to not being able to back up a statement on this thread, and guess what? They owned up to it. Heck, we can barely get Section to remember I even asked a question in the first place. It's not a question of harm, it's a question of him 1) backing up his statement, 2) saying he wants a conversation when he can't follow up a question in the first place, and 3) him getting pissy when he's called out on his errors. And that's not even getting into the fact that I can barely understand his posts, not because of the spelling errors ... although they are considerable, but because they're just random. I really DID think he was drunk several pages back. And I don't really care about typos, especially when I make so many myself, but when it's getting to the point where I'm finding it REALLY difficult to understand him.

In fact, I have to remind myself that you're the one even bringing this up, since I've seen you hammer the same question over and over again to Sam and Bri many, MANY times. Look, Section made a comment, and he can't or won't back it up, unless you count vague mysterious generalities. Now, if you think he can't handle being called out on it, fine. Just say he needs to be handled with kid gloves, and cannot deal with a candid discussion.

And I don't even want to get into the fact that he logged off this morning at 12:46 AM after saying he needed to rest for a double-shift tomorrow ... and then was back at 10:57 AM and on for at least 3 more hours after that. Wow, including the rest he needed, they just don't make double shifts the way they used to, huh?



I'm telling you ... Kris for Veep! Isn't it about time we had a Latina lesbian socialist ninja in the White House? :tongue:

Sam and Bri have it coming because they say vicious and bigoted things.

Section -- oh hell, I'm just getting mellow in my old age. I have decided it's not worth it to fight so much, especially when they've just gotten so carried away with their rhetoric they haven't realized they've stepped past the yellow tape of "here you have no knowledge".

I have decided to mostly be in behave myself mode for the next six months, because who needs the extra aggravation.

I will clobber McCain and his massive because they've got it coming. And any unnecessary vicious bigotry. But otherwise, it's mister nice guy for the duration. Woot!

[Infra-Man]

Er. I'm pretty sure Pip was joking.

It was on the order of suggesting that McCain keep Diana Ross in mind for Surgeon General.

I'd say Smokey Robinson, but only because it would make the Surgeon General's warning on cigarettes much more amusing.

[Infra-Man]

Obama has 20 names on his VP short list, this according to Politico and NBC's First Read (their article co-authored by my #1 man-crush, Chuck Todd).

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/20_names.html

Here's the Politico piece:

20 names

Senator Kent Conrad tells CNN Obama's vetters discussed 20 names, including some that are “outside the box.”

He said some are “top officials now,” others are “former lawmakers” and others are “former top military leaders.”

UPDATE: First Read (http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/10/1127710.aspx) has more names, including:
retired Gen. James Jones
Hillary Clinton
John Kerry
John Edwards
Evan Bayh
Kathleen Sebelius
Ted Strickland
Mark Warner
Tim Kaine
Jim Webb
Bill Nelson
Jack Reed
Joe Biden
Chris Dodd
Tom Daschle
Sam Nunn

Wonder who the other people are on that list.

[Michael P]

He can't *seriously* be considering John Kerry.

[Lester C.]

Anyone think that Obam isn't going to make it to the general election? There is a very small percentage of the population that would rather end up in jail or dead then see a black man become president. And given the fact that he has to campaign in the open with very large crowds I don't like his chances. Ofcouse I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I really think his story is going to end in tears.

[Michael P]

Anyone think that Obam isn't going to make it to the general election? There is a very small percentage of the population that would rather end up in jail or dead then see a black man become president. And given the fact that he has to campaign in the open with very large crowds I don't like his chances. Ofcouse I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I really think his story is going to end in tears.

That's because you're a simpleton fitting things into cliched Hollywood narratives instead of rationally analyzing the situation.

*Every* Presidential candidate lives under the spectre of getting shot, because they're public figures, and crazy people with guns like to shoot at public figures because it gets them more attention. Obama's being black may make it easier to determine a motive *if* he gets shot, but it doesn't make it an absolute certainty.

[Corrina]

I'm pretty sure I apologized in this thread, for an ill-considered comment that did sound like I was calling people who didn't support Obama racists. And Bree called me on it and she was right.

And I'm pretty sure we've all called Bree on her Hilary-hate because we wondered 'hey, what with the vitriol?"

The thing is, when someone comes in a thread and demands respect, that they get this respect despite communicating in a manner that is difficult at best, and refuses to do anything to make himself clearer, then insults them, is is not exactly surprising if people jump on them.

Basically, if you give out attitude to people, they tend to give it back. Section, you've been funny and insightful on some of your posts, so it's clear that you are not a troll and have something to contribute. But no one's going to listen if you get mullish and angry because they ask you to explain something and you ignore them, and then insult them because they're not thrilled to be ignored.

On the VP list---are there any surprises on that list? I can't see any. Kerry probably is there as a sop to his ego.

Saw Jim Webb last night on the Daily Show, talking about his new G.I. bill. That's the perfect issue to hit with voters in rural areas who are still miffed (rightfully or wrongfully, it's a problem for Obama) about the "cling to" thing. On that and his military record alone, I wonder if Webb is going to be the guy.

I think it'll all depend who comes out crystal-clean.

[Red Jack]

Anyone think that Obam isn't going to make it to the general election? There is a very small percentage of the population that would rather end up in jail or dead then see a black man become president. And given the fact that he has to campaign in the open with very large crowds I don't like his chances. Ofcouse I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I really think his story is going to end in tears.

We're not living in that country anymore.

When you look at Mr. Obama you're looking at your next president.

[PatrickG]

Obama has 20 names on his VP short list, this according to Politico and NBC's First Read (their article co-authored by my #1 man-crush, Chuck Todd).

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/20_names.html

Here's the Politico piece:



Wonder who the other people are on that list.

As much as I applaud Joe Biden for being a squeaky wheel, I doubt he'll help Obama in swing states and the ticket name "Obama-Biden" sounds way too much like "Osama Bin Laden". It's like giving Fox News a freebie.

[Crowley]

I'm pretty sure I apologized in this thread, for an ill-considered comment that did sound like I was calling people who didn't support Obama racists. And Bree called me on it and she was right.

And I'm pretty sure we've all called Bree on her Hilary-hate because we wondered 'hey, what with the vitriol?"

The thing is, when someone comes in a thread and demands respect, that they get this respect despite communicating in a manner that is difficult at best, and refuses to do anything to make himself clearer, then insults them, is is not exactly surprising if people jump on them.

Basically, if you give out attitude to people, they tend to give it back. Section, you've been funny and insightful on some of your posts, so it's clear that you are not a troll and have something to contribute. But no one's going to listen if you get mullish and angry because they ask you to explain something and you ignore them, and then insult them because they're not thrilled to be ignored.

On the VP list---are there any surprises on that list? I can't see any. Kerry probably is there as a sop to his ego.

Saw Jim Webb last night on the Daily Show, talking about his new G.I. bill. That's the perfect issue to hit with voters in rural areas who are still miffed (rightfully or wrongfully, it's a problem for Obama) about the "cling to" thing. On that and his military record alone, I wonder if Webb is going to be the guy.

I think it'll all depend who comes out crystal-clean.
that's pretty much precisely my take on it.

I don't think he's dumb guy and he certainly seems to pride himself on having a politically active family and his activism... both of which I find admirable.

However non-answers, passive aggressive signature insults, blatant aggressive insults and not bothering to spell or back up statements with any kind of facts when grossly misstating history is very troll like behavior and it suggests he's more interested in this point at gaining attention through conflict than enjoying a conversation.

My issue with him as Bree stated has to do with how he's posting and not his personal views. Bree, Buzz, Mac and several other conservatives on this board hold differing views than I and I greatly respect them and do my best to understand their point of view regardless of differences in ideology.

Ultimately my hope is that section will realize that we would just like him to grow up a little and tone down the aggression and show some basic consideration towards other posters...

[Crowley]

Has everyone seen this?
Kucinich brought articles of impeachment against President George W. Bush to Congress.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4nSA472_nKM

Wonder how this will affect McCain?

[section 8]

He can't *seriously* be considering John Kerry.

no THAT would be suicide

someone please tell me that was a joke as well

[Crowley]

Obama has 20 names on his VP short list, this according to Politico and NBC's First Read (their article co-authored by my #1 man-crush, Chuck Todd).

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/20_names.html

Here's the Politico piece:



Wonder who the other people are on that list.

hmmm... Edwards would be good, but he's recently said he has no interest in running Veep again.

No Gen. Wesley Clarke? He'd be great counter programming to McSame.

[Major Comma]

I have been thinking webb was gong to be Obamas VP pick for awhile.
We shall soon see .

[Sabrinaset]

no THAT would be suicide

someone please tell me that was a joke as well

Looks like (C) "Section 8 simply won't answer the question at all, or attempt to slide past it." is correct, as I surmised.

Kevin, let's just drop it, Corrina, he didn't get it, and Section 8 ... please drop all pretense of being involved in conversations.

[KevinTBrown]

Obama has 20 names on his VP short list, this according to Politico and NBC's First Read (their article co-authored by my #1 man-crush, Chuck Todd).

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/20_names.html

Here's the Politico piece:



Wonder who the other people are on that list.
Ben Smith wrote that?

Let's just say Smith and Rich Johnston would get along real well at a party....

[KevinTBrown]

Looks like (C) "Section 8 simply won't answer the question at all, or attempt to slide past it." is correct, as I surmised.

Kevin, let's just drop it, Corrina, he didn't get it, and Section 8 ... please drop all pretense of being involved in conversations.

Agreed.

Now I wish I had placed a bet on "C"! :redface:

[Sabrinaset]

Agreed.

Now I wish I had placed a bet on "C"! :redface:

I made a bet with my roommate on his response and made ten bucks! Go Capitalism! :tongue:

The problem is, my roommate has sais! :eek:

[KevinTBrown]

I made a bet with my roommate on his response and made ten bucks! Go Capitalism! :tongue:

The problem is, my roommate has sais! :eek:
Hey, sais matters...

[Crowley]

Agreed.

Now I wish I had placed a bet on "C"! :redface:

me too... I clicked ignore last night and now I'm done and dropping it.

[Corrina]

I made a bet with my roommate on his response and made ten bucks! Go Capitalism! :tongue:

The problem is, my roommate has sais! :eek:

Well, section 8 said in another thread that he's come down with pneumonia, so that may be why he hasn't responded. I think he deserves that much benefit of the doubt.

[PatrickG]

I decided to go down the whole list:

* retired Gen. James Jones
- Former Marine and NATO Allied Supreme Commander. That's a NICE resume. And he's from Kansas, a swing state.

* Hillary Clinton
- Bill is a liability. The bloody primary season is a liability... and she loses credibility as Obama's running mate. Plus, VP isn't really a step up from Senator unless the President dies or there's a tie vote in the Senate. It has all the high profile qualities that would draw out Clinton bashers and none of the real power that Clinton would need. I see her as Secretary of Health and Human Services -- or as a longshot, Attorney General or a Supreme Court Appointee.

* John Kerry
- I have to imagine he's on this list out of respect. He's already been swiftboated once. Two senators is a weak ticket. And Massachusetts doesn't bring anything to the table for a Democrat.

* John Edwards
He mobilizes the same voters Obama does. The ticket might as well be Obama/Obama except for the pull he MIGHT have in the south. And I'm not even sure he'd be that strong at that. His inclusion IMHO would depend on two factors: if Obama is concerned that he hasn't maximized youth turnout and if investigation suggests Edwards could get the south and those infamous "blue collar white voters".

* Evan Bayh
- The name coupled with Obama's would make a tongue twister ticket but he's an intriguing choice: a fiscally conservative Democrat who supports leaner government and lower taxes. He's also a big Clinton supporter. Going with Obama's approach of wooing Republicans without conceding any moral ground, I think this may be a keeper. He initially supported the war but now admits it was a mistake, which is a view that may have some traction for Obama. (Hillary won't do that. And having someone whose opinion on the war has changed reinforces Obama's stance all the better with voters who oppose the war now but may feel preached at by Obama, who never supported going to war.)

* Kathleen Sebelius
Strong choice. A female with solid credentials might ease some of the pain for some Hillary supporters but it may also invoke accusations of pandering. She's got pull in Kansas AND Ohio, being the governor of one state and the daughter of a governor from the other.

* Ted Strickland
Governor of Ohio. His popularity might deliver that state but what else can he bring to the table? I'd be looking at a southerner, a military person or someone who can help deliver more than one state. I'd wager that if he's picked, it's because projections show that the race will be decided in Ohio.

* Mark Warner
Good at mobilizing rural voters. It seems to me that highly educated rural/suburban folks and black democrats are Obama's base. The question is, does his base need mobilizing or does he need to branch out.

* Tim Kaine
His haircut frightens small children. The big liability I see here is that he's pro-life and Obama is rumored to be pro-life. That may be too much of a liability in courting the base, especially with older feminists already upset.

* Jim Webb
A bit weird. He's still pro-Vietnam. His military service is a plus though. Then again, this excerpt from his novels may haunt him (again):

A shirtless man walked toward them along a mud pathway. His muscles were young and hard, but his face was devastated with wrinkles. His eyes were so red that they appeared to be burned by fire. A naked boy ran happily toward him from a little plot of dirt. The man grabbed his young son in his arms, turned him upside down, and put the boy's penis in his mouth.

His novels are accused of being both misogynist and showcasing disturbing sexuality. The left AND right might both crucify him.

* Bill Nelson
- Biggest two perks: he's from Florida and he's on the Senate Intelligence committee. Two senators still seems weak though.

* Jack Reed
- He's the senator from Rhode Island. That's two strikes against him. No military career is strike three. Also too liberal.

* Joe Biden
- Too liberal. Doesn't offer any extra draw. Not well-liked enough even within his own party. And the unfortunate combination of their names would result in lots of "Obama-Biden-Laden" cracks. He's on the list out of respect.

* Chris Dodd
- The only thing I see going for this guy is that Kim Possible is his goddaughter. He shielded accounting firms in the Enron case. He's got problems with lobbies and conflict of interests. I doubt Connecticut is a pivotal swing state either. Next?

* Tom Daschle
Is this whole list made up of senators? He has charisma. A South Dakotan MIGHT bring something pivotal to the ticket and he has charisma. Still, he endorsed domestic surveillance. As a plus, he's advised the Obama campaign. He's recently said he's not interested in being VP under Obama but might be interested in Health and Human Services. So scratch him off.

* Sam Nunn
Conservative Democrat from Georgia, which is expected to be a big swing state this year. Loads of foreign policy and diplomatic experience and multiple Nobel Peace Prize nominations. History of varied and bipartisan cooperation. He did leave the scene of an accident when he was 26 but on the whole, character is a strong point for him.

Okay...

My money is on Nunn, Bayh or Sebelius.

My gut says all three could easily belong in an Obama cabinet. I think Nunn would be the most interesting choice and offer Obama the most as a running mate.

[KevinTBrown]

I've been saying Sebelius since he's campaigned in Kansas. For the 2 reasons you gave, Patrick.

[Infra-Man]

He can't *seriously* be considering John Kerry.

On this list, I think of Kerry as the asthmatic, weak-kneed, severely nearsighted kid that gets picked last in kickball just so there's an even 8-on-8 or 10-on-10.


I'm going with Jones and Sebelius as the top tier; Byah, Warner, and Nunn as the second tier; Edwards and Strickland as the outside shots; and Clinton if unification prospects look bleak come convention time.

[GozertheGozarian]

Well, section 8 said in another thread that he's come down with pneumonia, so that may be why he hasn't responded. I think he deserves that much benefit of the doubt.
He's made plenty of posts in other threads.

[Dazzler]

Hey, sais matters...

*groan*

But in a good way.

--Dazz

[Sabrinaset]

Well, section 8 said in another thread that he's come down with pneumonia, so that may be why he hasn't responded. I think he deserves that much benefit of the doubt.

He's responding to everything else BUT that ... so naaaaaah, the pneumonia isn't much of an excuse here. I mean, I've dealt with pneumonia on both sides of the hospital bed, and I'm pretty sure blocking out responses to CERTAIN posts aren't one of the symptoms!

As far as veeps ... I'm going with Jones, Bayh, and Sebellis, in that order, with an outside chance of Nunn. Jones negates McCains military experience, I think, and without that, what else does McCain have?

[KevinTBrown]

He's responding to everything else BUT that ... so naaaaaah, the pneumonia isn't much of an excuse here. I mean, I've dealt with pneumonia on both sides of the hospital bed, and I'm pretty sure blocking out responses to CERTAIN posts aren't one of the symptoms!

As far as veeps ... I'm going with Jones, Bayh, and Sebellis, in that order, with an outside chance of Nunn. Jones negates McCains military experience, I think, and without that, what else does McCain have?
A temper..??

[Paul McEnery]

I know this is stupid, but I hate Evan Bayh's name. It just reeks of tentacles.

Well it does!

No, out of that great big pile of pooh, only Sebelius smells of roses.

I don't know why everyone thinks McCain's military experience needs to be countered. The fact that he's turned into a warmongering nutcase takes care of that one all on it's own. Nobody cared that Bush had no military experience when Gore and Kerry were up to their eyeballs, and nobody cared about Dole's medals when he ran against Clinton. And nobody's going to care about Obama.

Why? Because we're sick to death of being at war.

Clinton, Kerry, and Edwards are yesterdays (wo)men. Warner -- the hell are they thinking? If he wanted it, he'd have run and won.

Biden, Dodd, Daschle and the other fella -- oh yeah, Nunn -- all losers.

The thing is, he doesn't need a "conservative" -- whatever that is -- to balance the ticket. Exactly the opposite. He needs someone who's completely behind his vision. Because it's the vision thing that makes Obama electable.

It might be all an illusion, but if so, that just makes the illusion so much more important to defend.

So yeah, the only serious candidate on that list at all -- assuming she doesn't make necklaces out of squirrel heads or something -- is Sebelius. Everyone else is either backward looking or "who he?"

Or has a name that smells of tentacles.

[Red Jack]

I was hoping he'd pick Chuck Heigl.

[Cam63]

Gleek is the mastermind actually...

He could serve as the Member for Faeces Throwing.

[Cam63]

Doubt that considering beer distribution is where a chunk of his wife's money comes from.

I may like her a bit.

[Cam63]

The problem is, my roomate has sais ! :Eek:

Hey, sais matters...

*Applauds punnage*

[Nick Soapdish]

Obama has 20 names on his VP short list, this according to Politico and NBC's First Read (their article co-authored by my #1 man-crush, Chuck Todd).

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/20_names.html

Here's the Politico piece:



Wonder who the other people are on that list.

Nelson's a bit of an odd choice. He's my senator and I still know next to nothing about him. He's popular enough in Florida which is pretty good considering that the state seems to be tilting pretty Republican. (Or maybe it's just districted badly for the Dems.) I just don't know if he's ever done anything.

Sorta surprised that Richardson's name isn't on there. He might be one of those "others".

[Corrina]

I agree with you, Paul. One of the things that Bill Clinton did exactly right was choose his vice-president.

Al Gore didn't bring any votes to the ticket or balance it. What he did was emphasize Bill Clinton's strengths--another young(ish) politician who's going to change things. The image the whole ticket projected was 'new, young, fresh, different.'

Obama doesn't want a contrast. He wants someone who will highlight his strengths and brighten the glow all around.

I'd like to see a woman on his ticket. Can't say anything yet about Sebelius because I don't know that much about her. But she seems suitable.

*Though I'll point out that while everyone snarks about Hilary going places because of her husband, it sounds like Sebelius wasn't hurt by her family connections. This is not a slam, btw. I just find it interesting.

[Major Comma]

I heard on the news that today Strickland said in an Interview with NPR he would not accept the VP slot if asked .

[LtMarvel]

Again, there is no way the Kansas govenor could deliver Kansas. She'd be a terrible choice.

Pick someone from a state you have an unphill shot at winning with the help!

[Paul McEnery]

Again, there is no way the Kansas govenor could deliver Kansas. She'd be a terrible choice.

Pick someone from a state you have an unphill shot at winning with the help!

At the end of the day, all he's got to do is pick someone who isn't a serial killer or a crazy person or a loser. A woman mends fences, and adds to the glow. See, we're all breaking the ceiling together! And that's a message that speaks to all the people who need a hero -- except for the racists and misogynists, and who cares about them.

Kansas says: I'm not ignoring the midwest. And that's not small.

[PatrickG]

At the end of the day, all he's got to do is pick someone who isn't a serial killer or a crazy person or a loser. A woman mends fences, and adds to the glow. See, we're all breaking the ceiling together! And that's a message that speaks to all the people who need a hero -- except for the racists and misogynists, and who cares about them.

Kansas says: I'm not ignoring the midwest. And that's not small.

But Obama is also FROM the Midwest. I'm concerned about his competitiveness in Appalachia and the south.

[the4thpip]

Er. I'm pretty sure Pip was joking.

It was on the order of suggesting that McCain keep Diana Ross in mind for Surgeon General.

Her "Stop in the name of love!" campaign to get people to quit smoking is gonna be sure-fire.

[the4thpip]

I'd say Smokey Robinson, but only because it would make the Surgeon General's warning on cigarettes much more amusing.

Smokey is gonna be in charge of National Parks. Forest fire prevention and such.

[the4thpip]

hmmm... Edwards would be good, but he's recently said he has no interest in running Veep again.

No Gen. Wesley Clarke? He'd be great counter programming to McSame.

Yeah, Wes has been my dream pic for Obama's veep for ages. He is so dreamy.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/General_Wesley_Clark_official_photograph.jpg/428px-General_Wesley_Clark_official_photograph.jpg

[Buzz Dixon]

Anyone think that Obam isn't going to make it to the general election? There is a very small percentage of the population that would rather end up in jail or dead then see a black man become president. And given the fact that he has to campaign in the open with very large crowds I don't like his chances. Ofcouse I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I really think his story is going to end in tears.Historically, since 1840 every president elected in a year evenly divisible by 20 has died in office or else been the target of an assassination attempt:
1840 - Wm. Henry Harrison
1860 - Abraham Lincoln
1880 - James A. Garfield
1900 - William McKinley
1920 - Warren G. Harding
1940 - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
1960 - John F. Kennedy
1980 - Ronald Reagan (survived)

Hopefully Reagan broke the curse, but if not...:evilsmile:

[Buzz Dixon]

Anyone think that Obam isn't going to make it to the general election? There is a very small percentage of the population that would rather end up in jail or dead then see a black man become president. And given the fact that he has to campaign in the open with very large crowds I don't like his chances. Ofcouse I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I really think his story is going to end in tears.Historically, since 1840 every president elected in a year evenly divisible by 20 has died in office or else been the target of an assassination attempt:
1840 - Wm. Henry Harrison
1860 - Abraham Lincoln
1880 - James A. Garfield
1900 - William McKinley
1920 - Warren G. Harding
1940 - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
1960 - John F. Kennedy
1980 - Ronald Reagan (survived)

Hopefully Reagan broke the curse, but if not...:evilsmile:

[the4thpip]

Buzz! Stop clicking submit!!!

[Buzz Dixon]

Anyone think that Obam isn't going to make it to the general election? There is a very small percentage of the population that would rather end up in jail or dead then see a black man become president. And given the fact that he has to campaign in the open with very large crowds I don't like his chances. Ofcouse I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I really think his story is going to end in tears.Historically, since 1840 every president elected in a year evenly divisible by 20 has died in office or else been the target of an assassination attempt:
1840 - Wm. Henry Harrison
1860 - Abraham Lincoln
1880 - James A. Garfield
1900 - William McKinley
1920 - Warren G. Harding
1940 - Franklin Delano Roosevelt
1960 - John F. Kennedy
1980 - Ronald Reagan (survived)

Hopefully Reagan broke the curse, but if not...:evilsmile:

[LtMarvel]

Of course, nothing of note has happened to the guy elected in 2000, thankfully.

[LtMarvel]

Obama rolls up his sleeves and dives into health care (http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/stlouiscitycounty/story/7875D4809FF10FBF8625746400425F3D?OpenDocument)...

[Charles RB]

I approve of a candidate talking about economic reforms actually asking people face-to-face what economic issues they're worried about and seeing how they work.

(Well, as much as he can, I'm sure the hospital was a lot cleaner and more organised that day than most days like whenever the Queen visits one and Obama probably knows that)

[Kevinroc]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/11/mccain-iraq-comments-brin_n_106468.html

McCain has said it's not too important when US troops return home from Iraq.

[section 8]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080611/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_iraq
Same Mccain quote, but more in context, with reactions from others

[section 8]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080611/ap_on_el_pr/democrats_in_exurbs;_ylt=Aj2Y1GSd49gPSL1TjjMKjcdh2 4cA

Democrats finally start doing thing right.

[Mr.EZ]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080611/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_iraq
Same Mccain quote, but more in context, with reactions from others

If McCain wants to continue the war so badly, why doesn't he go over there and fight it himself. See how long it takes for his dumb ass to get captured again.

And by "casualties in Iraq" does he mean all the poor American soldiers who're killing themselves rather than stay there a moment longer? I wonder what he has to say about the kids who are injuring themselves on leave in America so they won't have to go back to Iraq. I just wonder what McCain's opinion on the guy that hired a hitman to shoot him in the leg on the day of his re-deployment, or about the young man that lodged a couple of pens in his stomach to avoid going back.

[KevinTBrown]

If McCain wants to continue the war so badly, why doesn't he go over there and fight it himself. See how long it takes for his dumb ass to get captured again.

And by "casualties in Iraq" does he mean all the poor American soldiers who're killing themselves rather than stay there a moment longer? I wonder what he has to say about the kids who are injuring themselves on leave in America so they won't have to go back to Iraq. I just wonder what McCain's opinion on the guy that hired a hitman to shoot him in the leg on the day of his re-deployment, or about the young man that lodged a couple of pens in his stomach to avoid going back.

Actually, he was shot down then captured.... :tongue:

[Mr.EZ]

Actually, he was shot down then captured.... :tongue:

That's fine too.

[section 8]

If McCain wants to continue the war so badly, why doesn't he go over there and fight it himself. See how long it takes for his dumb ass to get captured again.

And by "casualties in Iraq" does he mean all the poor American soldiers who're killing themselves rather than stay there a moment longer? I wonder what he has to say about the kids who are injuring themselves on leave in America so they won't have to go back to Iraq. I just wonder what McCain's opinion on the guy that hired a hitman to shoot him in the leg on the day of his re-deployment, or about the young man that lodged a couple of pens in his stomach to avoid going back.

i heard somewhere that being injured doesn't get you out of it any more

[Infra-Man]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/11/mccain-iraq-comments-brin_n_106468.html

McCain has said it's not too important when US troops return home from Iraq.

I get what he meant to say, but McCain needs to realize that his string of gaffes are hurting his chances and he's got to choose his words carefully. These gaffes of his aren't depicting his policies in the best light and they may be fueling perceptions that he's too old to do the job.

[Venom Melendez]

i heard somewhere that being injured doesn't get you out of it any more

''General, both my arms where blown off''


''You can still shoot with your mouth''

[rick]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080611/ap_on_el_pr/mccain_iraq
Same Mccain quote, but more in context, with reactions from others

Even in context, that quote isn't that great, since it suggests that keeping US troops inside of a hostile country with a steady flow of violence against occupation troops is somehow the same as leaving troops inside of a friendly ally like South Korea, or a completely destroyed nation occupied by an international force, like Germany.

The truth is that the only earlier American occupation that is actually comparable is the US occupation of South Vietnam since unlike Germany and Korea, the Vietnamese population were still at war with the troops even if their puppet government wasn’t.

[Crowley]

Even in context, that quote isn't that great, since it suggests that keeping US troops inside of a hostile country with a steady flow of violence against occupation troops is somehow the same as leaving troops inside of a friendly ally like South Korea, or a completely destroyed nation occupied by an international force, like Germany.

The truth is that the only earlier American occupation that is actually comparable is the US occupation of South Vietnam since unlike Germany and Korea, the Vietnamese population were still at war with the troops even if their puppet government wasn’t.

It further demonstrates McCain's lack of understanding that a large percentage of the reason the violence is occurring is because of our presence in the region.

[Infra-Man]

Interesting breakdown of how the McCain and Obama tax proposals would work if instituted.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3274/2009taxbreakdownfv5.jpg

[Samurai]

Interesting breakdown of how the McCain and Obama tax proposals would work if instituted.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3274/2009taxbreakdownfv5.jpg

So I'd come out about $800 ahead under Obama's plan than McCain's... IF, and that's a very big if, each of their plans were enacted as they are now. I rather doubt the Democrat-run Congress will be willing to approve ANY tax cuts, and in fact, I expect across the board TAX INCREASES once the elections are over. They will, at the very least, increase taxes by repealing Bush's tax cuts, and then probably raise them well beyond that, no matter which guy is elected.

[Sabrinaset]

If McCain wants to continue the war so badly, why doesn't he go over there and fight it himself. See how long it takes for his dumb ass to get captured again.

You know, one of the lefts talking points during the Iraqi War has been calling right-wingers "chickenhawks", and I've certainly seen more a fair share of that here on CBR. I think just a bit further down the list on talking points was the "If they're so eager to vote for the war, why aren't their children enlisting?" amid a few comments as to why, say the Bush twins weren't enlisted. And you know, okay, fair enough.

But on the other hand, whatever else you can say about McCain as a possible President, I kinda feel this kind of comment is uncalled for since, whatever else his political failings are, and are there many! ... this is a guy who did serve his country with honor and distinction while in the military. In short, this is a low blow since he did "go over there and fight."

Perhaps another way of putting it is that you've had many posts calling W and friends a chickenhawk because they never served in the military but they're eager to send others into battle. And okay, fair point. But then McCain comes along, someone you can't make that kind of comment about because he did serve, and now it's "You wanna continue the war? YOU fight it," and it ends up looking like the left wants it both ways here. The left is against people who are for the war because they didn't serve in the military ... and the left is against people who are for the war because they DID serve in the military.

Now, McCain is wrong, but that's not the way to go about arguing it, at least the way I see it.

[section 8]

Pay close attention to the following words, for i may never get to speak them again.

Bree has a point

[Corrina]

Also, one of McCain's sons is serving in Iraq. (Not sure if he's back yet.)

[Major Comma]

Pay close attention, because this is probably the first of many times I will gladly say.this.
Bree FREQUENTLY has many good points that we should take seriously.
And I ALWAYS do!:smile:

[Sabrinaset]

Also, one of McCain's sons is serving in Iraq. (Not sure if he's back yet.)

IIRC, the couple times I've come across the mention of McCain's son, the press has kept silent on exactly where he is as a matter of sercurity, because they (I hope!) don't want word getting out on exactly where he is so some nutjob could target him specifically ... and that has specifically been mentioned in the stories I've read, such as here (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/us/politics/06mccain.html). He could well be back by now, for all we know.

Pay close attention, because this is probably the first of many times I will gladly say.this.
Bree FREQUENTLY has many good points that we should take seriously.
And I ALWAYS do!:smile:

Aww! Thanks! :redface:

[section 8]

Pay close attention to the following words, for i may never get to speak them again.

I agree with Bree

Rephrasedi need a cigarette

[LtMarvel]

i heard somewhere that being injured doesn't get you out of it any more
There have been cases where the injured (enough to qualify for handicapped parking) have been shipped off for another tour of duty.

Because, you know, they support the troops.

[LtMarvel]

So I'd come out about $800 ahead under Obama's plan than McCain's... IF, and that's a very big if, each of their plans were enacted as they are now. I rather doubt the Democrat-run Congress will be willing to approve ANY tax cuts, and in fact, I expect across the board TAX INCREASES once the elections are over. They will, at the very least, increase taxes by repealing Bush's tax cuts, and then probably raise them well beyond that, no matter which guy is elected.
Which party passed that bill with the $1500 check my family got again?

[section 8]

There have been cases where the injured (enough to qualify for handicapped parking) have been shipped off for another tour of duty.

Because, you know, they support the troops.

*Insert "Special" forces joke here*

[LtMarvel]

*Insert "Special" forces joke here*
Kyle Baker beat you to that joke.

[section 8]

Kyle Baker beat you to that joke.

Well great minds think alike.

besides, no story can be written that has not already been written.

[TomStillwell]

Anyone think that Obam isn't going to make it to the general election? There is a very small percentage of the population that would rather end up in jail or dead then see a black man become president. And given the fact that he has to campaign in the open with very large crowds I don't like his chances. Ofcouse I hope and pray I'm wrong, but I really think his story is going to end in tears.

My mother-in-law works in his campaign office here in Chicago and he actually popped into the office today to see the staff. Let me just assure you that Obama's security detail of secret service agents is quite large and very paranoid. Also, the staff at the office has to follow very strict protocols for his protection.

Right now Obama is probably has more security than Bush.

[Crowley]

You know, one of the lefts talking points during the Iraqi War has been calling right-wingers "chickenhawks", and I've certainly seen more a fair share of that here on CBR. I think just a bit further down the list on talking points was the "If they're so eager to vote for the war, why aren't their children enlisting?" amid a few comments as to why, say the Bush twins weren't enlisted. And you know, okay, fair enough.

But on the other hand, whatever else you can say about McCain as a possible President, I kinda feel this kind of comment is uncalled for since, whatever else his political failings are, and are there many! ... this is a guy who did serve his country with honor and distinction while in the military. In short, this is a low blow since he did "go over there and fight."

Perhaps another way of putting it is that you've had many posts calling W and friends a chickenhawk because they never served in the military but they're eager to send others into battle. And okay, fair point. But then McCain comes along, someone you can't make that kind of comment about because he did serve, and now it's "You wanna continue the war? YOU fight it," and it ends up looking like the left wants it both ways here. The left is against people who are for the war because they didn't serve in the military ... and the left is against people who are for the war because they DID serve in the military.

Now, McCain is wrong, but that's not the way to go about arguing it, at least the way I see it.
yeah but then how did he vote when it came to Veteran's benefits?
He and Bush are opposing the GI Bill.

Where's that YouTube of him screaming obscenities in outrage over Walter Reed?
Oh it doesn't exist.

Where's his outrage at the troops having inadequate body armor?
I haven't seen it... could someone point it out to me.

Why can't he tell Shiite from Sunni if he's the guy with experience?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EetobKXQsr8

He also is unaware of troop levels?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42ke9Q-qXg4
The troop level in Iraq: 155,000
Pre- Surge: 130,000

Isn't the management of Iraq supposed to be his forte?

umm... and he was tortured right? So when it came time to vote on torture what'd McCain vote? He voted against a bill that would have prohibited torture.

he cracked under torture and these are two excerpts from what he had to say about that experience:

"A major aspect of his prison experience is isolation. Man is a social animal; he does not live alone. From birth to death, he lives in the company of his fellow man. His relations with other people and, especially with those closest to him, are almost as important to him as food or drink. When a man is totally isolated, he is removed from all of the interpersonal relations which are so important to him and taken out of the social role which sustains him. His internal as well as his external life is disrupted."

"After a few days it becomes apparent to the prisoner that his activity avails him nothing and that will he will be punished or reprimanded for even the smallest breaches of the routine. His requests have been listened to but never acted upon. He becomes docility of a trained animal. Indeed, the guards say that prisoners are “reduced to animals”. It is estimated that in the average case it takes from four to six weeks of rigid, total isolation to produce this phenomenon."

Yet he voted FOR torture.

So he served his country honorably... undeniably. But look... Olney was a Marine. Military service doesn't give carte blanche to bad behavior and McCain's actions in the last 20 years have been less than honorable the more digging you do.

Phil Gramm, Keating 5, S&L, Drumming for war with Iran, In bed with corporate lobbyists, opposing his own campaign finance reform bill recently... his behavior has been less than honorable.

And you know he recently made this rather rousing speech on Katrina in which he said "NEVER AGAIN" was total bullshit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRar6yKZE8g
http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/katrina_kerfuffle.html

So yeah he served honorably, but his behavior following his service has been far less than that of someone I would consider to be an honorable man.

[Corrina]

But the point was that you can't say "well, if you believe in it so much, go fight." Because he did.

You can criticize him on his voting record for veteran's benefits, of course. But you can't say when the country asked, he didn't answer. Unlike a ton of chickenhawks.

[Sabrinaset]

(Cut for length) ...So yeah he served honorably, but his behavior following his service has been far less than that of someone I would consider to be an honorable man.

I'm not disputing any of that, that wasn't the point. The point I WAS trying to make (and maybe I didn't make it clear enough) was that while his political views/votes/actions are certainly open to debate (to put it mildly!) there's a certain ... well, let's just say inconsistency and leave it at that when it comes to the left equating military service (or lack thereof) and being for the Iraqi War. But more importantly, I thought that one particular dig on McCain was a cheap shot.

[KevinTBrown]

But the point was that you can't say "well, if you believe in it so much, go fight." Because he did.

You can criticize him on his voting record for veteran's benefits, of course. But you can't say when the country asked, he didn't answer. Unlike a ton of chickenhawks.

Yes, he did enlist.... and promptly got shot down and was captured, being a POW for 5 years.

Kerry served two tours in Vietnam for the U.S. Navy, receiving a Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts for his service.



If war record truly mattered, we'd currently be discussing whether Kerry should have a second term or not.

[Nick Soapdish]

But the point was that you can't say "well, if you believe in it so much, go fight." Because he did.

You can criticize him on his voting record for veteran's benefits, of course. But you can't say when the country asked, he didn't answer. Unlike a ton of chickenhawks.

Exactly.

With the chickenhawks that are so gung-ho to invade somebody or another and claim to support the troops, but then show that they mean by buying yellow ribbons to put on their cars and not any sort of financial support or actual concern for well-being, you can also criticize them for their own lack of interest in serving.

But with McCain, he did serve. So when you look at his record for supporting the troops, he can reply that when he served, they treated the troops like dirt and by gosh, that's how it's supposed to be done so he's not going to let this next generation get soft.

But I guess that we could Max Cleland him.

[Nick Soapdish]

Yes, he did enlist.... and promptly got shot down and was captured, being a POW for 5 years.

Kerry served two tours in Vietnam for the U.S. Navy, receiving a Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts for his service.



If war record truly mattered, we'd currently be discussing whether Kerry should have a second term or not.

War record doesn't really matter. It's worth a little IMO to show that you've actually have some experience and know sorta what it's about, but that's the case for dozens of professions.

Republicans have been taking a lot of heat from Democrats because they back the war, but never served. Which is fine because I don't think that you have to have served in order to be in favor or against a war. But they've compounded that by claiming that the Democrats are soft and unwilling to fight and of course the "Support the Troops!" thing.

That isn't the case for McCain.

[PatrickG]

McCain is no Chickenhawk. He's a hawk.

More philosophically sound. Potentially also more dangerous.

Chickenhawks CAN be turned around if their problems come home to roost. Bush and his ilk HAVEN'T yet but by virtue of the "chicken" part, these people eventually will crack. Maybe far too late but...

If things got bad enough that Bush lost his daughters or personally had to fight, I think we'd see a changed man.

McCain probably would go over there and fight if he had absolutely ZERO alternative. That's why I find him scary.

[Michael P]

Yes, he did enlist.... and promptly got shot down and was captured, being a POW for 5 years.

Kerry served two tours in Vietnam for the U.S. Navy, receiving a Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts for his service.


Tell me you're not insinuating McCain's military service was inconsequential because he spent five years in a fucking VC tiger cage.

[Nick Soapdish]

Tell me you're not insinuating McCain's military service was inconsequential because he spent five years in a fucking VC tiger cage.

Maybe I should've used a smiley to show I wasn't being serious when I suggested that we Max Cleland him.

[Crowley]

I'm not disputing any of that, that wasn't the point. The point I WAS trying to make (and maybe I didn't make it clear enough) was that while his political views/votes/actions are certainly open to debate (to put it mildly!) there's a certain ... well, let's just say inconsistency and leave it at that when it comes to the left equating military service (or lack thereof) and being for the Iraqi War. But more importantly, I thought that one particular dig on McCain was a cheap shot.

I think when he's advocating torture, not standing up for veterans rights, not paying attention to the war, and advocating starting another war... then I think "Oh yeah, well then YOU go fight this one" is a perfectly valid response seeing as how for all the hell that was Vietnam the politicians at the time did give soldiers the best equipment possible, the GI BILL and Veteran's benefits.

[KevinTBrown]

Tell me you're not insinuating McCain's military service was inconsequential because he spent five years in a fucking VC tiger cage.
Inconsequential? No.

But the man is no hero, no matter how you want to slice it.

My great-uncle was a POW of the Japanese during WWII. It didn't make him a hero, just someone who survived...

Like McCain.

[section 8]

Even with all that i'd personally follow a Vet. like McCain or Kerry into war before Bush or someone else whose never been on either side of the barrel.

Theres just something to be said for a leader having been there.

[Sabrinaset]

Yes, he did enlist.... and promptly got shot down and was captured, being a POW for 5 years.

Kerry served two tours in Vietnam for the U.S. Navy, receiving a Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts for his service.

Tell me you're not insinuating McCain's military service was inconsequential because he spent five years in a fucking VC tiger cage.

There WAS a certain ... minimization of McCains military service by Kevin, there.

We could also rephrase it this way:

Yes, he did enlist, serving from 1958 to 1981, having spent 5 years as a POW in Viet Nam. His seventeen military awards and decorations include the Silver Star, Legion of Merit, Distinguished Flying Cross, Bronze Star and Navy Commendation Medal.

Kerry served two tours in Vietnam for the U.S. Navy from 1966 to 1970, receiving a Silver Star, Bronze Star and three Purple Hearts for his service.

I'll say it again though, just in case. What McCain did once he was in the Senate is fair game, no doubt about it, and Crowley is (so far as I can tell) spot on about his Senate activities.

I think when he's advocating torture, not standing up for veterans rights, not paying attention to the war, and advocating starting another war... then I think "Oh yeah, well then YOU go fight this one" is a perfectly valid response seeing as how for all the hell that was Vietnam the politicians at the time did give soldiers the best equipment possible, the GI BILL and Veteran's benefits.

It is a response, but I'm questioning the validity of it based on the fact that you've got the same people saying W is a hypocrite because while he didn't really fight nor did his children, and yet he's ordering others to do so, and then turning around and saying to McCain, who did fight and whose son IS fighting in the Iraqi War, well, YOU go ahead and fight. I mean, which way do they want it? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I am saying the people arguing the way I described are ... I'm not sure if disingenuous is the right word here, but it's the closest I can come at the moment.

[Crowley]

Inconsequential? No.
But the man is no hero, no matter how you want to slice it.
My great-uncle was a POW of the Japanese during WWII. It didn't make him a hero, just someone who survived...
Like McCain.

No I disagree Kevin. McCain is unquestionably a hero.

Look he had multiple oppurtunities to bet let out of the POW camp due to his father's connections and he refused to leave his men behind... that's fucking heroic any way you slice it.


It is a response, but I'm questioning the validity of it based on the fact that you've got the same people saying W is a hypocrite because while he didn't really fight nor did his children, and yet he's ordering others to do so, and then turning around and saying to McCain, who did fight and whose son IS fighting in the Iraqi War, well, YOU go ahead and fight. I mean, which way do they want it? I'm not saying that you're wrong, but I am saying the people arguing the way I described are ... I'm not sure if disingenuous is the right word here, but it's the closest I can come at the moment.
Look... being in the military isn't a requirement for office, nor should it be.

Bill Clinton served not a day in the military and ordered strikes in Bosnia, Somalia and Afghanistan (against the Taliban). I never said shit about it because those strikes were all purposeful.

When Bush ordered troops into Afghanistan and said "dead or alive" my response was "fuck yeah." That had purpose.

But with Iraq we were manipulated into war under completely bullshit circumstances and that changes the game DRASTICALLY and now McCain's beating the drum for war with Iran. Fuck that... He and Bush can go fight it.

If you've seen war and you know "war is hell" as McCain says... then you don't push for another war based on cherry picked false intelligence.

[section 8]

Not the least bit relevant but funny as hell

"Inside McCain's Head":http://dehydratedbabies.ytmnd.com/

"Hillary's Destiny":http://thisismydestiny.ytmnd.com/

we now return you to your regularly schedualed forum

[Sabrinaset]

No I disagree Kevin. McCain is unquestionably a hero.

Look he had multiple oppurtunities to bet let out of the POW camp due to his father's connections and he refused to leave his men behind... that's fucking heroic any way you slice it.

I completely agree with Crowley here.

But with Iraq we were manipulated into war under completely bullshit circumstances and that changes the game DRASTICALLY and now McCain's beating the drum for war with Iran. Fuck that... He and Bush can go fight it.

If you've seen war and you know "war is hell" as McCain says... then you don't push for another war based on cherry picked false intelligence.

I'm not saying that he's right, I'm questioning the inconsistency of some on the left. Maybe if I put it this way ...

ANTI-WAR ACTIVIST: "Why should we fight in any war W wants us to fight in? He sends people to die when he won't fight, and neither will his children! Why should we listen to him?"

McCAIN: "Well, I fought, and my son is serving right now! Will you listen to me?"

ANTI-WAR ACTIVIST: "Uhm ... Go and fight it yourself!"

Bottom line: There's plenty of GOOD arguments as to why we shouldn't be there. This isn't one of them. And I hope I made myself clear, because I don't know how else to explain it! :redface:

[Buzz Dixon]

Right now Obama is probably has more security than Bush.If Bush is assassinated, Cheney becomes president.

You can't have more security than that.

[Buzz Dixon]

If war record truly mattered, we'd currently be discussing whether Kerry should have a second term or not.And Bill would have never beaten George Sr. or Bob Dole.:biggrin:

[Paul McEnery]

If Bush is assassinated, Cheney becomes president.

You can't have more security than that.

And the difference would be?

[Crowley]

I'm not saying that he's right, I'm questioning the inconsistency of some on the left. Maybe if I put it this way ...

ANTI-WAR ACTIVIST: "Why should we fight in any war W wants us to fight in? He sends people to die when he won't fight, and neither will his children! Why should we listen to him?"

McCAIN: "Well, I fought, and my son is serving right now! Will you listen to me?"

ANTI-WAR ACTIVIST: "Uhm ... Go and fight it yourself!"

Bottom line: There's plenty of GOOD arguments as to why we shouldn't be there. This isn't one of them. And I hope I made myself clear, because I don't know how else to explain it! :redface:
Because part 1:
"Why should we fight in any war W wants us to fight in? He sends people to die when he won't fight, and neither will his children! Why should we listen to him?"

Is outrage at a lie.

part two:
"Well, I fought, and my son is serving right now! Will you listen to me?"
"Uhm ... Go and fight it yourself!"
Is outrage that a veteran is taking part in a lie and attempting to start another war based on yet another lie.

The inconsistency in rhetoric matches the inconsistency in the stories being told to the public. It's outrage at a lie, and it's outrage at the hypocrisy of a veteran pushing the lie.

[the4thpip]

If Bush is assassinated, Cheney becomes president.

You can't have more security than that.

You just gave McCain an idea whom to pick for VEEP:

http://www.x-rep.com/images/CarrotTop1.jpg

[TomStillwell]

I'm kind of surprised to not see Bill Richardson on Obama's VP list.

[Mr.EZ]

You know, one of the lefts talking points during the Iraqi War has been calling right-wingers "chickenhawks", and I've certainly seen more a fair share of that here on CBR. I think just a bit further down the list on talking points was the "If they're so eager to vote for the war, why aren't their children enlisting?" amid a few comments as to why, say the Bush twins weren't enlisted. And you know, okay, fair enough.

But on the other hand, whatever else you can say about McCain as a possible President, I kinda feel this kind of comment is uncalled for since, whatever else his political failings are, and are there many! ... this is a guy who did serve his country with honor and distinction while in the military. In short, this is a low blow since he did "go over there and fight."

Perhaps another way of putting it is that you've had many posts calling W and friends a chickenhawk because they never served in the military but they're eager to send others into battle. And okay, fair point. But then McCain comes along, someone you can't make that kind of comment about because he did serve, and now it's "You wanna continue the war? YOU fight it," and it ends up looking like the left wants it both ways here. The left is against people who are for the war because they didn't serve in the military ... and the left is against people who are for the war because they DID serve in the military.

Now, McCain is wrong, but that's not the way to go about arguing it, at least the way I see it.

Call me what you want, I call it like I see it, and all I see are poor young people, naive, or just in need of the money, signing up to go fight a war for rich people. When I say McCain should go fight the war, I'm talking about his monetary stature, not the actual man.

Secondly, modern warfare is so removed from the Vietnam era, that other than how they've been politically mandated, and socially viewed, the 2 wars are completely different.

I'm not for the war, but I am for the well-being of the men and women of the American Armed Forces that are dying, both at the enemies hands and their own, instead of the rich bastards who're profiting off those childrens' blood.

[Mr.EZ]

No I disagree Kevin. McCain is unquestionably a hero.

Look he had multiple oppurtunities to bet let out of the POW camp due to his father's connections and he refused to leave his men behind... that's fucking heroic any way you slice it.


Yup, totaly heroic how he got caught, and then treated for his injuries because of who his father was, yet none of the other men received any hospitalization for their injuries. Even more heroic was when he refused release because it was for mostly true propaganda purposes, ie, the rich are treated better than the poor in the armed forces. It was also very heroic of him when he protected his men while he was in solitary confinement for 2 years, and especially heroic when he broke and went anti-American, writing statements promoting the enemy ideology.

If a soldier can be captured and tortured for half a decade and then come out of it supporting torture, less education for returning soldiers and more war, (considering the revelations of how and why a particular war came to be) then it's really high time to question that soldier's sanity, or at least the motivation behind his choices.

[KevinTBrown]

Yup, totaly heroic how he got caught, and then treated for his injuries because of who his father was, yet none of the other men received any hospitalization for their injuries. Even more heroic was when he refused release because it was for mostly true propaganda purposes, ie, the rich are treated better than the poor in the armed forces. It was also very heroic of him when he protected his men while he was in solitary confinement for 2 years, and especially heroic when he broke and went anti-American, writing statements promoting the enemy ideology.

If a soldier can be captured and tortured for half a decade and then come out of it supporting torture, less education for returning soldiers and more war, (considering the revelations of how and why a particular war came to be) then it's really high time to question that soldier's sanity, or at least the motivation behind his choices.

Very well put.

[Infra-Man]

I'm kind of surprised to not see Bill Richardson on Obama's VP list.

If there are really 20 names rather than 16, maybe Richardson is one of the secret four. My guess is that having Richardson's name on a list may piss off some hardcore Clinton voters, particularly since James Carville (one of the most vocal Clintonistas on the news) called Richardson a Judas on television. Given, not many people were bombarded with that clip on the news, but it would probably get some air time and Carville and other vocal Clinton supporters who possibly excoriated Richardson would have to spend time disassociating themselves from those comments.

[Corrina]

Call me what you want, I call it like I see it, and all I see are poor young people, naive, or just in need of the money, signing up to go fight a war for rich people. When I say McCain should go fight the war, I'm talking about his monetary stature, not the actual man.

Secondly, modern warfare is so removed from the Vietnam era, that other than how they've been politically mandated, and socially viewed, the 2 wars are completely different.


Your second paragraph is incorrect.

There are a lot of military parallels to Vietnam. The terrain is different but many of the military elements are the same:

1. Ineffective support from the government & government forces.

2. An insurgency hiding among the civilians which protect them either from fear
or from sympathy with their cause.

3. Lack of ability to hold territory. We've been counting our gains by casualties on both sides. Less for us or the Iraqi allies, we're winning. More, we're losing.
This is very reminiscent of the body bag totals in Vietnam and shows a similar problem: Failure to hold and secure territory.

We won WWII in Europe by taking land, securing it, and moving forward, to establish a safe behind the lines.
We can't hold territory in Iraq. Even our 'safe zones' are being bombed by (mostly) ineffective shelling.

Militarily, the situation is not new. We faced it before in Vietnam. The British famously faced it in the American Revolution, where they took the South by conquest but then could not hold it as the rebel army was reformed under Nathaniel Green's leadership.

The fight in Vietnam is very, very similar to the military situation in Iraq right now, right down to us saying we'll put out when the puppet government that we're propping up can defend itself.

[the4thpip]

If there are really 20 names rather than 16, maybe Richardson is one of the secret four. My guess is that having Richardson's name on a list may piss off some hardcore Clinton voters, particularly since James Carville (one of the most vocal Clintonistas on the news) called Richardson a Judas on television. Given, not many people were bombarded with that clip on the news, but it would probably get some air time and Carville and other vocal Clinton supporters who possibly excoriated Richardson would have to spend time disassociating themselves from those comments.

The entire list might be red herrings...

[Infra-Man]

The entire list might be red herrings...

Possibly. It would be a nice diversionary tactic for actual VP vetting. But then again, there are some likely names on the list.

[Crowley]

Yup, totaly heroic how he got caught, and then treated for his injuries because of who his father was, yet none of the other men received any hospitalization for their injuries. Even more heroic was when he refused release because it was for mostly true propaganda purposes, ie, the rich are treated better than the poor in the armed forces. It was also very heroic of him when he protected his men while he was in solitary confinement for 2 years, and especially heroic when he broke and went anti-American, writing statements promoting the enemy ideology.

If a soldier can be captured and tortured for half a decade and then come out of it supporting torture, less education for returning soldiers and more war, (considering the revelations of how and why a particular war came to be) then it's really high time to question that soldier's sanity, or at least the motivation behind his choices.

I can't disagree with you here...

[Corrina]

The entire list might be red herrings...

I read that Caroline Kennedy, of all people, is on his VP committee.

And then I remembered that the head of Bush's VP committee picked himself.

And I wondered what would happen if Caroline Kennedy got picked. :)

She's got no practical political experience (though I will say she's familiar with intense scrutiny & pressure) and without that, I can't see it happening. She does work right now fundraising & running programs for the NYC school district.

But the emotional pull of the last member of Jack Kennedy's family being on the ballot would be powerful, for sure.

Yes, mostly just musing aloud. When pip said 'red herrings,' I thought of it.

And those names could be anything, from sops to egos to the real list. I figure we'll know just before the convention.

[KevinTBrown]

I wonder how this is going to affect the election: Supreme Court: Guantanamo suspects can challenge detentions (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080612/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_guantanamo).

[Agent Helix]

I know I should stop saying things like this, but I can't believe the vote was only 5-4 on the issue of whether putting people in prison forever with no charges filed against them might violate their rights.

[Toku King]

I know I should stop saying things like this, but I can't believe the vote was only 5-4 on the issue of whether putting people in prison forever with no charges filed against them might violate their rights.

You should, because we all know the ridiculousness of it. I mean, more should have voted "no".

[Agent Helix]

I just mean that by now I should believe it.

[the4thpip]

Interesting breakdown of how the McCain and Obama tax proposals would work if instituted.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/06/11/news/economy/candidates_taxproposals_tpc/index.htm

http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3274/2009taxbreakdownfv5.jpg

Obama's plan would put a lot more money back into the economy, as it gives the most money to those who've been waiting to buy a new pair of shoes for the kids, to replace that washing machine, to get the roof fixed. Not those who will just open a new account in the Cayman's as with McCain's plan.

[Adam C]

Yup, totaly heroic how he got caught, and then treated for his injuries because of who his father was, yet none of the other men received any hospitalization for their injuries. Even more heroic was when he refused release because it was for mostly true propaganda purposes, ie, the rich are treated better than the poor in the armed forces. It was also very heroic of him when he protected his men while he was in solitary confinement for 2 years, and especially heroic when he broke and went anti-American, writing statements promoting the enemy ideology.

You're on the nose on all of these except for the very last part. He didn't go "anti-American". He succumbed to torture. And for all my problems with McCain I can't hold that part against him.

Waffling on his anti-torture stance however, oh god yes.

[Charles RB]

I know I should stop saying things like this, but I can't believe the vote was only 5-4 on the issue of whether putting people in prison forever with no charges filed against them might violate their rights.

I groaned when I saw it say "the court's liberal justices were in the majority". So, what, the conservative justices didn't feel indefinite detention without trial violated rights? WHY NOT?

[KevinTBrown]

I'm kind of surprised to not see Bill Richardson on Obama's VP list.
He may not be on the "rumored list", but he is discussed here:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=91383280

If not Sebelius, I'd take Richardson.

[kingdom2000]

Obama's plan would put a lot more money back into the economy, as it gives the most money to those who've been waiting to buy a new pair of shoes for the kids, to replace that washing machine, to get the roof fixed. Not those who will just open a new account in the Cayman's as with McCain's plan.

Nice!, why doesn't the press do more breakdowns like that.

[CutterMike]

If Bush is assassinated, Cheney becomes president.

You can't have more security than that.

Actually Bush Sr. had better security.

Repeat after me: "Good morning, President Quayle".

...Kinda makes you throw up in your mouth a little, doesn't it...?

[4PointOh]

http://www.counterpunch.org/wise06072008.html

An Open Letter to Certain White Women Who Are Threatening to Withhold Support from Obama in November

Your Whiteness is Showing
By TIM WISE

This is an open letter to those white women who, despite their proclamations of progressivism, and supposedly because of their commitment to feminism, are threatening to withhold support from Barack Obama in November. You know who you are.

I know that it's probably a bad time for this. Your disappointment at the electoral defeat of Senator Hillary Clinton is fresh, the sting is new, and the anger that animates many of you--who rightly point out that the media was often sexist in its treatment of the Senator--is raw, pure and justified.

That said, and despite the awkward timing, I need to ask you a few questions, and I hope you will take them in the spirit of solidarity with which they are genuinely intended. But before the questions, a statement if you don't mind, or indeed, even if (as I suspect), you will mind it quite a bit.

First, for those of you threatening to actually vote for John McCain and to oppose Senator Obama, or to stay home in November and thereby increase the likelihood of McCain winning and Obama losing (despite the fact that the latter's policy platform is virtually identical to Clinton's while the former's clearly is not), all the while claiming to be standing up for women...

For those threatening to vote for John McCain or to stay home and increase the odds of his winning (despite the fact that he once called his wife the c-word in public and is a staunch opponent of reproductive freedom and gender equity initiatives, such as comparable worth legislation), all the while claiming to be standing up for women...

For those threatening to vote for John McCain or to stay home and help ensure Barack Obama's defeat, as a way to protest what you call Obama's sexism (examples of which you seem to have difficulty coming up with), all the while claiming to be standing up for women...

Your whiteness is showing.

When I say your whiteness is showing this is what I mean: You claim that your opposition to Obama is an act of gender solidarity, in that women (and their male allies) need to stand up for women in the face of the sexist mistreatment of Clinton by the press. On this latter point--the one about the importance of standing up to the media for its often venal misogyny--you couldn't be more correct. As the father of two young girls who will have to contend with the poison of patriarchy all their lives, or at least until such time as that system of oppression is eradicated, I will be the first to join the boycott of, or demonstration on, whatever media outlet you choose to make that point. But on the first part of the above equation--the part where you insist voting against Obama is about gender solidarity--you are, for lack of a better way to put it, completely full of crap. And what's worse is that at some level I suspect you know it. Voting against Senator Obama is not about gender solidarity. It is an act of white racial bonding, and it is grotesque.

If it were gender solidarity you sought, you would by definition join with your black and brown sisters come November, and do what you know good and well they are going to do, in overwhelming numbers, which is vote for Barack Obama. But no. You are threatening to vote not like other women--you know, the ones who aren't white like you and most of your friends--but rather, like white men! Needless to say it is high irony, bordering on the outright farcical, to believe that electorally bonding with white men, so as to elect McCain, is a rational strategy for promoting feminism and challenging patriarchy. You are not thinking and acting as women, but as white people. So here's the first question: What the hell is that about?

And you wonder why women of color have, for so long, thought (by and large) that white so-called feminists were phony as hell? Sister please...

Your threats are not about standing up for women. They are only about standing up for the feelings of white women, and more to the point, the aspirations of one white woman. So don't kid yourself. If you wanted to make a statement about the importance of supporting a woman, you wouldn't need to vote for John McCain, or stay home, thereby producing the same likely result--a defeat for Obama. You could always have said you were going to go out and vote for Cynthia McKinney. After all, she is a woman, running with the Green Party, and she's progressive, and she's a feminist. But that isn't your threat is it? No. You're not threatening to vote for the woman, or even the feminist woman. Rather, you are threatening to vote for the white man, and to reject not only the black man who you feel stole Clinton's birthright, but even the black woman in the race. And I wonder why? Could it be...?

See, I told you your whiteness was showing.

And now for a third question, and this is the biggie, so please take your time with it: How is it that you have managed to hold your nose all these years, just like a lot of us on the left, and vote for Democrats who we knew were horribly inadequate--Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Dukakis, right on down the uninspiring line--and yet, apparently can't bring yourself to vote for Barack Obama? A man who, for all of his shortcomings (and there are several, as with all candidates put up by either of the two major corporate parties) is surely more progressive than any of those just mentioned. And how are we to understand that refusal--this sudden line in the proverbial sand--other than as a racist slap at a black man? You will vote for white men year after year after year--and are threatening to vote for another one just to make a point--but can't bring yourself to vote for a black man, whose political views come much closer to your own, in all likelihood, than do the views of any of the white men you've supported before. How, other than as an act of racism, or perhaps as evidence of political insanity, is one to interpret such a thing?

See, black folks would have sucked it up, like they've had to do forever, and voted for Clinton had it come down to that. Indeed, they were on board the Hillary train early on, convinced that Obama had no chance to win and hoping for change, any change, from the reactionary agenda that has been so prevalent for so long in this culture. They would have supported the white woman--hell, for many black folks, before Obama showed his mettle they were downright excited to do so--but you won't support the black man. And yet you have the audacity to insist that it is you who are the most loyal constituency of the Democratic Party, and the one before whom Party leaders should bow down, and whose feet must be kissed?

Your whiteness is showing.

Look, I couldn't care less about the Party personally. I left the Democrats twenty years ago when they told me that my activism in the Central America solidarity and South African anti-apartheid movements made me a security risk, and that I wouldn't be able to get clearance to be in some parade with Governor Dukakis. Yeah, seriously. But for you to act as though you are the indispensible voters, the most important, the ones whose views should be pandered to, whose every whim should be the basis for Party policy, is not only absurd, it is also racist in that it, a) ignores and treats as irrelevant the much more loyal constituency of black folks, without whom no Democrat would have won anything in the past twenty years (and indeed the racial gap favoring the Democrats among blacks is about six times larger than the gender gap favoring them among white women, relative to white men); and b) demonstrates the mentality of entitlement and superiority that has been long ingrained in us as white folks--so that we believe we have the right to dictate the terms of political engagement, and to determine the outcome, and to get our way, simply because for so long we have done just that.

But that day is done, whether you like it or not, and you are now left with two, and only two choices, so consider them carefully: the first is to stand now in solidarity with your black brothers and sisters and welcome the new day, and help to push it in a truly progressive and feminist and antiracist direction, while the second is to team up with white men to try and block the new day from dawning. Feel free to choose the latter. But if you do, please don't insult your own intelligence, or ours, by insisting that you've done so as a radical political act.

Tim Wise is the author of: White Like Me: Reflections on Race from a Privileged Son (Soft Skull Press, 2005), and Affirmative Action: Racial Preference in Black and White (Routledge: 2005). He can be reached at: timjwise@msn.com

[Red Jack]

Word to Life, yo.

Damn.

[PatrickG]

Actually Bush Sr. had better security.

Repeat after me: "Good morning, President Quayle".

...Kinda makes you throw up in your mouth a little, doesn't it...?

All you would have had to do is tell Cheney there was a Quayle in the White House and he'd have grabbed his gun. Or, really, just tell him there's a Republican lawyer in the white house...

[Corrina]

Wha???

tencharacterlimit

[Corrina]

Actually Bush Sr. had better security.

Repeat after me: "Good morning, President Quayle".

...Kinda makes you throw up in your mouth a little, doesn't it...?

Even more so when you consider how much alike Quayle and W. are.

[Paul McEnery]

I groaned when I saw it say "the court's liberal justices were in the majority". So, what, the conservative justices didn't feel indefinite detention without trial violated rights? WHY NOT?

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

The opposite of liberal is authoritarian.

And those justices ain't no conservatives.

[Charles RB]

Is it really "whiteness" or are they just going "WAAAAA the person I wanted to win didn't, I'll throw a big wobbly!"? I thought it was the latter.

[4PointOh]

Is it really "whiteness" or are they just going "WAAAAA the person I wanted to win didn't, I'll throw a big wobbly!"? I thought it was the latter.

That might explain the whining, but it doesn't really explain the decision (at least in some cases) to support the candidate to whom Hilary was diametrically opposed.

[Linkara]

I'm voting for McCain because unless the person is a complete and utter scumbag of the highest order, I'll vote along party lines. No candidate is going to match up perfectly with my beliefs, and I would've been more likely to vote for Hillary than Obama because I honestly thought Hillary would've done a better job than him.

[Charles RB]

That might explain the whining, but it doesn't really explain the decision (at least in some cases) to support the candidate to whom Hilary was diametrically opposed.

I remember Hilary's campaign suggesting she could better win over borderline McCain supporters and her boosting her tough-gal credentials ("I'd bomb Iran grrr!" and such) to compete with him.

Looks like it goes both ways.

[4PointOh]

I'm voting for McCain because unless the person is a complete and utter scumbag of the highest order, I'll vote along party lines. No candidate is going to match up perfectly with my beliefs, and I would've been more likely to vote for Hillary than Obama because I honestly thought Hillary would've done a better job than him.

But Hilary and Obama are MUCH more similar in their politics beliefs (in fact, the differences are incredibly minimal) than Hilary and McCain. So what is driving you to suddenly abandon all the principles you applauded Hilary for and embrace McCain who shares almost NONE of those principles? How do you go from hot to cold so readily?

It reminds me so much of this: http://sonofbaldwin.blogspot.com/2008/06/little-man-little-man.html

[Charles RB]

Linkara's a Republican, hence why he mentioned he's voting on party lines.

[Anodyne]

Ignore this post.

[hellokittykat]

Wow. Just....wow.

[Anodyne]

Is it really "whiteness" or are they just going "WAAAAA the person I wanted to win didn't, I'll throw a big wobbly!"? I thought it was the latter.
I hope it was the latter. It was an understandable reaction, if a bit childish (IMHO) but women can get over it more easily than we can get over our skin color--whatever that happens to be.

BTW: I'm a white, 65-year-old woman who voted for Obama in the Massachusetts primary.

[Michael P]

That might explain the whining, but it doesn't really explain the decision (at least in some cases) to support the candidate to whom Hilary was diametrically opposed.

Take the entitlement inherent there, and dial it up to 11, which seems to be the default setting in the US these days.

It's less to do with racial entitlement, and more to do with general entitlement. Didn't get what you wanted? Make someone else miserable for it. These are likely the same people who scream at retail cashiers for not being able to use expired coupons.

[4PointOh]

Take the entitlement inherent there, and dial it up to 11, which seems to be the default setting in the US these days.

It's less to do with racial entitlement, and more to do with general entitlement. Didn't get what you wanted? Make someone else miserable for it. These are likely the same people who scream at retail cashiers for not being able to use expired coupons.

You may be right.

[Michael P]

You may be right.

I may be crazy.

[section 8]

Inconsequential? No.

But the man is no hero, no matter how you want to slice it.

My great-uncle was a POW of the Japanese during WWII. It didn't make him a hero, just someone who survived...

Like McCain.

"There are no heros in war, only survivors"

Who was it that said that? Gen. MacArthur?

[Red Jack]

I may be crazy.

Lunatic




.......

[Dedagda]

I kind of want this issue to go away. Not because either side is right. Or because the articles argument isn't valid. I just don't think its going to help with unity to keep pressing it.

[Sabrinaset]

So, is this character an Obama supporters version of that crazy cat-lady who went ballistic last week?

[Corrina]

I don't know.

Is this polemic based on anything more than a few comments by very small number of Hilary supporters or is it based on polls that show white women overall aren't going to support Obama?

It's not that I think some of these women exist. It's that I think this long article gives waay too much time and consideration to a very small number of people.

[The Ray]

I'm voting for McCain because unless the person is a complete and utter scumbag of the highest order, I'll vote along party lines.

This way lies madness.

[section 8]

i'm writting in "Jared" ( yes the Sub-way guy)

[Corrina]

Actually, I think your great-uncle was a hero. And McCain, too.

And a helluva lot of people who were injured, physically and emotionally, or killed to fight in our country's wars.

I really think attacking McCain's military service, point by point, is a dead end.

He was a fighter pilot. Do you have any idea how hard it is to land a fighter jet on a moving target like an aircraft carrier? Every single time it's done, you can die. It takes guts of the first order.

But that doesn't mean those skills translate to President. In fact, they may do the exact. Opposite. As said before, the man's a real hawk, which can be just as dangerous as the chicken kind.

[Paul McEnery]

Actually, I think your great-uncle was a hero. And McCain, too.

And a helluva lot of people who were injured, physically and emotionally, or killed to fight in our country's wars.

I really think attacking McCain's military service, point by point, is a dead end.

He was a fighter pilot. Do you have any idea how hard it is to land a fighter jet on a moving target like an aircraft carrier? Every single time it's done, you can die. It takes guts of the first order.

But that doesn't mean those skills translate to President. In fact, they may do the exact. Opposite. As said before, the man's a real hawk, which can be just as dangerous as the chicken kind.

I'm with the EZ fella. I don't think there's anything specifically more heroic about being in the marines than being in the fire brigade or being a psychotherapist or working construction.

I do think the man came back from the war broken. And I don't want that anywhere near the White House.

[section 8]

I kind of want this issue to go away. Not because either side is right. Or because the articles argument isn't valid. I just don't think its going to help with unity to keep pressing it.

Very true. it is early in the year ( well by political standards)
Obama will no doubt use the remaining time to woo back Clinton voters who now support McCain, as will McCain use said time to tip the scales with begrudged Obama supporters, who were for Clinton.

My guess is the number of "undecideds" will either be a record high, or low, depending on the wind's direction

But some free advise, saying things to white voters like "your whiteness is showing" is only going to widen the gap. ( not to mention the number of white people who love to cry "race card" every chance they get)

[Corrina]

I didn't pass judgment on the other professions, Paul. I don't know why you think I did.

[Paul McEnery]

Take the entitlement inherent there, and dial it up to 11, which seems to be the default setting in the US these days.

It's less to do with racial entitlement, and more to do with general entitlement. Didn't get what you wanted? Make someone else miserable for it. These are likely the same people who scream at retail cashiers for not being able to use expired coupons.

Michael, there are days when there is no mot juster than the mot you juste.

[Briareos]

I know I should stop saying things like this, but I can't believe the vote was only 5-4 on the issue of whether putting people in prison forever with no charges filed against them might violate their rights.

That is a lie. They were going to be tried in Military Tribunals which would have begun long ago but the left keeps challenging the idea that maybe it's a good idea to hide how we track down terrorists from the terrorists.

[Red Jack]

I don't know.

Is this polemic based on anything more than a few comments by very small number of Hilary supporters or is it based on polls that show white women overall aren't going to support Obama?

It's not that I think some of these women exist. It's that I think this long article gives waay too much time and consideration to a very small number of people.

I think the pundit class sets itself on issues and then gnaws them until the bones dissolve, regardless of how much or if they reflect reality. The most extreme set of Clinton supporters is the set getting the ink because they're the most fun to play with for pundits.

I'm confident Obama will win and handily.

McCain's got nothing that would appeal to an actual democrat and loses more everyday. Frankly, after this last eight years, I'm amazed there are any Republicans left. I'd have figured they'd have vacated the party to be libertarian or independent.

[section 8]

I'm with the EZ fella. I don't think there's anything specifically more heroic about being in the marines than being in the fire brigade or being a psychotherapist or working construction.

I do think the man came back from the war broken. And I don't want that anywhere near the White House.

I'm sure a heroic psychotherapist sorted him out.:biggrin:

Ive worked construction, i dont recall Bamboo chutes being driven under my fingernails ( tho there was this one foreman....)

maybe it isn't as "heroic" when one is drafted, but when someone enlists, knowing they will be sent to war, i'd say thats pretty heroic. (Just look at what Pat Tillman left behind)
But every hero from WWII to the guy who saved the dude that had that seizure on a NY subway, nearly all of them say something like "i'm not a hero, i just did what had to be done"

Life in America would be hard without pschotherapists, and shitty without Construction workers, but life in America would be Impossible without the men and women in our nations armed forces.